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asciilifeform: adlai: you may find it interesting that the 'roulette' was orig. played w/ a nagant -- where the cylinder in fact spins freely. i.e. is ~biased~ rng.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
asciilifeform: trinque: re 'profit centers', asciilifeform was cured of this notion when rubbed face 1st into e.g. 'no, there is not market for uncensored undns'd hosting', 'no, there aint a silent majority yearning for nonwhitened trng', etc
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:14:15 asciilifeform: there are some euro firms who offer 20,000+ $ 'golden toilet' rng. i investigated, all of'em whiten.
asciilifeform: it's a lemon market, the homeopaths will always control the chump-change segment, while the crypto-ag types will control the golden-toilet segment. while actual rng that actually non-whiteningly worx, 'doesn't exist, never existed, what kinda terrorist are you to ask'
asciilifeform: mats: even more so, the homeopathic trng that comes w/ x86 cpu, costs 0
mats: theres definitely a lot of bad devices you only have to pay $40 to own, like onerng
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 18:41:27 asciilifeform: Aerthean: whole point of using scintillator, is to remove, as much as physically possible, any external influence on the rng output, either manmade or natural. external meaning from anywhere outside the box.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the fpga in fg was used strictly 'as modem'. see also.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you'll still need an analogue source of trngism.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:10:16 asciilifeform: as for the coin, the correct algo to 'hodl' is exactly same today as was in '09. i.e. your hdd has what's indistinguishable from rng output. and as for the key, maybe you once had it, but now lost in boating accident. and forgot where boated. (and if you can't stick to the story, will have to carry cyanide.)
asciilifeform: as for the coin, the correct algo to 'hodl' is exactly same today as was in '09. i.e. your hdd has what's indistinguishable from rng output. and as for the key, maybe you once had it, but now lost in boating accident. and forgot where boated. (and if you can't stick to the story, will have to carry cyanide.)
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
asciilifeform: genning with gpg, however, is problematic.
asciilifeform: and recall this.
asciilifeform: just to take the fact, for instance, that i did not own a trng when generated that key..
asciilifeform: adlai: as i understand , you like 'contrarian for own sake', but this is not ultimately smart, it leads folx to become 'meat rng' .
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-09-27#1022559 << btw that piece is epic, goebbels-level job, btw. damn near ~all~ of the assertions in it were outright lies ( from '256bits from urandom contain 256bits of entropy' to 'impossible to predict outcome from previous bits' to (implicit!) 'ALL rng must whiten' , etc )
adlai: without any randomness whatsoever, these become identical; with trng, they become maximally different.
adlai: not quite; the hypothetical nonrandom strategy is not supposed to be indistinguishable from trng, since it is only profitable due to the quirks of its non-randomness; the indistinguishability is within specific timeframes, smaller than the resolution at which the profit is expected.
asciilifeform: though to me still seems like an elementary failure in the original intent (i.e. nonrandom strategy but ideally indistinguishable from trng to folx w/out the key)
asciilifeform: adlai: right, i get this part - same reason mirv warheads have onboard trng..
adlai: you dunget the answer to an overly general problem, that neither of us stated; specifically, in the context of timing market orders, a TRNG does not increase profit; it reduces expected expense, by increasing overhead for someone counter-trading your specific strategy.
asciilifeform: possibly i dunget it ? what can 'sufficiently attentive observer' do against a trng ?
asciilifeform: my approach to the q, ftr.
asciilifeform: the correct way to keygen is to pump straight from iron rng. Just Say No to kochism.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: be aware of known bugs .
asciilifeform: agreed to it because had already sworn the oath; and because 'can demonstrate that sane and usable trng can exist'
asciilifeform: there are some euro firms who offer 20,000+ $ 'golden toilet' rng. i investigated, all of'em whiten.
asciilifeform: Aerthean: near as i can tell, most computer users who even are aware of concept of rng, are satisfied with 'homeopathic' ones.
asciilifeform: Aerthean: right. if i ever do sell the lyso rng, it'll be part of e.g. self-contained OTPtron, or similar.
asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
asciilifeform: for all the surface simplicity of trng, it is surprisingly hard to get 100% right, esp. if you are unwilling to lie to yourself & others via 'whitenings'.
asciilifeform: right, afaik erry trng ever marketed, other than mine, committed this sin
Aerthean: I remember reading the paper you posted about an RNG that used a Zener I think.
asciilifeform: this includes power supply. (in purely electronic rng, yer stuck w/ battery power if you want troo isolation in the above sense.)
asciilifeform: Aerthean: whole point of using scintillator, is to remove, as much as physically possible, any external influence on the rng output, either manmade or natural. external meaning from anywhere outside the box.
asciilifeform: e.g. if it's picking up 'voice of america', it aint a trng.
asciilifeform: most naive attempts at electronic rng, for instance, are really picking up local radio
asciilifeform: a trng that even in theory can be influenced by nearby rf, is a rubbish
asciilifeform: Aerthean: right, but presumably you weren't trying to make trng.
asciilifeform: ( and asciilifeform realizes that 100% of folx who traditionally care about fast pulse, use PMTs. but i rejected'em for same reason as rejected geigers -- they require HV, which requires oscillators; and they ~age~ detectably, which is unacceptable in rng )
asciilifeform: Aerthean: aah, but the lower the deadtime, the better bitrate of rng.
asciilifeform: Aerthean: currently this item not a priority for asciilifeform , as his previous attempt to market a much cheaper, wholly electronic rng was not a success.
asciilifeform: Aerthean: idea is, the rng should not depend on external events at all.
asciilifeform: newland0: the gnarl of traditional gpg , and the garbage hardware it runs on, are problems that i've worked on for many yrs. the former, i am attacking by slowly baking a fits-in-head replacement ; against the latter, built a RNG , and continuing to work on yet-other irons even nao.
snsabot: (ossasepia) 2020-07-17 jfw: and *sigh* it was originally a ~$35 TRNG; vendor closed but the schematics are there waiting for someone to step up and make more
shinohai: err worng link: https://blog.coinkite.com/bip143-issues/
asciilifeform: re os knobs, the only ones used in ffa/peh are command line param eater, and opener of rng device. errything else is device-agnostic. (i.e. will run anywhere with a reasonably large memory for stack)
shinohai: It's not like the chimps from places like, say blockchain.com, can do any better than toy store dice. iirc they produced rng that spit out same privkey for hundreds of wallets.
asciilifeform will leave alone for nao the q of whether ordinary toy store dice are suitable for safety-critical rng...
asciilifeform: i.e. if it so happens that only house wins at vegas for week straight, inspectors come to test the rngs. whereas at nyse etc this is routine and folx will even laugh if you complain.
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-02 asciilifeform: a 'secure prng' is fundamentally THE SAME animal as the 'secure hash' and the 'secure blockcipher'.
asciilifeform: they also laser cut metals. iirc it was there that i had templates cut for solderpaste on orig. rng prototype when i was still making those by hand.
asciilifeform: the pc arch simply offers no 100% satisfying place to plug in rng. imho i picked the least retarded one (100% of the gear in my machine room, whether from 1980s or present day, offers serial)
asciilifeform: it's a serial device, and sends rng bytes. which requires a 8-bit-clean tty, which linux does ~not~ by default give.
asciilifeform: linking urandom (if you have it on the machine at all) to a 7kB/s rng is imho painful (when do you use urandom? typically it's when you need coupla MB of liquishit , ~quickly~, and quality dun matter much )
asciilifeform: try sell honest rng ? konsoomer: 'intel included RDRAND on die' . try sell proper inline disk cryptor? konsoomer: 'why should i buy 1000 $ box , samsung includes password feature'
asciilifeform: the (a) folx continue to buy crypto-ag & co's $20,000 'quantum' black box (welded shut.) (b) continues to happily lap up e.g. intel's on-die rng.
asciilifeform: when the paper 'wealth' turns to toilet paper, they will have what they managed to physically build -- railroads, mines, cardboard ghost towns, etc.; and won't have, what didn't build (native 'fits in head' cpu arch; native os; crystallography labs that don't simply pull coordinates outta rng to fill paper queue, and could go on) and no more/no less.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-21#1005418 << noncritical ( tetris ? ) can carry internal prng.
asciilifeform: ( and imho rng output has no biz sitting around in a 'pool' where it might, potentially, get read twice )
asciilifeform: erry moving part one puts b/w rng and the consuming proggy, is a potential mine
asciilifeform: mp et al are baking a FG-to-/dev/random patch but imho is Wrong Thing, os has no biz knowing where yer rng is
asciilifeform: pretty common linear feedback reg. prng algo
asciilifeform: shinohai: i'ma fix the warnings crapola in the next rev ( sig verification obv. dun use rng )
asciilifeform: if one insists, for whatever reason, on manipulating rng output via e.g. hashes, do it on software end. but don't lie to the purchaser of the iron and say that sha(whatever) is 'entropy', sha(1234....infinity) will fool 100% of mathematical 'entropy test' while being cryptographically worthless just the same.
asciilifeform: imho it is not the least bit difficult to build proper rng. ( esp. given that asciilifeform published 100% schematics. ) but somehow folx studiously avoid doing it.
asciilifeform: ditto if the thing 'whitens' (i.e. puts the bits through a hash or similar, disguising a possibly-dead analogue end) . which i've found 100% of heathen rng in fact do.
verisimilitude: As for the RNG, what's your opinion on this piece?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-28 00:26:52 asciilifeform: shinohai: i've many interesting things lined up. incl. for phuctor. such as e.g. previously-unmolested classes of weak key .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-15 15:53:11 asciilifeform: jfw: i'm baking a run of new high-bandwidth rng (early 2020 tentatively) but given mp's curse i expect plenty of folx will stick to the classic one , i expect you'll have a lively market
feedbot: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/12/keccak-hashing-for-kernel-rng/ << bvt's backtrace -- Keccak Hashing for Kernel RNG
asciilifeform: shinohai: i've many interesting things lined up. incl. for phuctor. such as e.g. previously-unmolested classes of weak key .
asciilifeform: re used vs new -- fwiw fg (unlike e.g. zenerdiode-based rng's) does not measurably wear out ( at least over the timescale it has existed for , for asciilifeform to take measurements. )
jfw: Ah. Well I went with the bird-in-the-hand option; slow rng way better than no rng. If these move I might look into learning to bake my own
asciilifeform: jfw: i'm baking a run of new high-bandwidth rng (early 2020 tentatively) but given mp's curse i expect plenty of folx will stick to the classic one , i expect you'll have a lively market
asciilifeform: mats: you understand, i need for own needs rng. and i , like rube, signed an idiot agreement that allowed 100% of personal inventory to get repossessed .
asciilifeform: PeterL: see, per the new mp-cosmography, asciilifeform ~hypnotized~ mp et al into using v, trng, gentoo, ..., etc. ( this is quite a compliment , imho, 'hypnotized world's greatest hypnotist' , but i dun particularly care for compliments )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it'll be a while before will have rng in these, tho. (unless you want to colo 1 of yours.) mp wants his back, and takes coupla months for asciilifeform to commission moar. (which i'ma do, and mp not in million yrs will do, even w/ schematics it requires hands that grow from torso.)


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