punkman: asciilifeform: I think a ping-pong mechanism might be useful for Pest. Case: I start station up, ping all peers in Wot, if X or Y doesn't answer, I can go and look for their new IP address. Case 2: I have received no messages for a couple hours, I do "/ping ALL" and see if any stations are still online, if I need to reconfigure something, etc
punkman: can be implemented as special direct message that is not displayed by default
punkman: if we add current timestamp to ping/pong, we can also see how close our clocks are with any given peer and possible emit msg to operator if clock difference is larger than X seconds
punkman: why not have hash of last msg from peer in "3.1.3.2. NetChain (Direct Messages)"?
punkman is going through spec and writing code outline
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057452 << meant last direct message from peer, in case it wasn't clear
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 05:29:11 punkman: why not have hash of last msg from peer in "3.1.3.2. NetChain (Direct Messages)"?
asciilifeform: punkman: this actually is already in my working draft...
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057449 << this, otoh, is quite unnecessary, on account of the AT mechanism -- recall, [http://www.loper-os.org/pub/pest/pest_FE.html#22-peers-and-keys]['Additionally, at least one of the peers must have a routable, static address (here and below: IPv4 address and port, in a.b.c.d:p notation), and it must
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 03:51:43 punkman: asciilifeform: I think a ping-pong mechanism might be useful for Pest. Case: I start station up, ping all peers in Wot, if X or Y doesn't answer, I can go and look for their new IP address. Case 2: I have received no messages for a couple hours, I do "/ping ALL" and see if any stations are still online, if I need to reconfigure something, etc
asciilifeform: be known to the other peer.']
asciilifeform: if at least one of a pair of peers has a static ip, it will never 'lose' the other
asciilifeform: (the AT is updated when a packet is received. and 'Ignore' packets will be received (tho i did not specify how often..) from every peer with a working connection)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057451 << you get this for free when you exchange already-defined cmds (incl. 'Ignore'), so not sure why would want a dedicated one
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 04:27:35 punkman: if we add current timestamp to ping/pong, we can also see how close our clocks are with any given peer and possible emit msg to operator if clock difference is larger than X seconds
asciilifeform: (ALL packets include timestamp)
punkman: "Ignore" msg is not gonna get an ACK with other side's timestamp though, and if "Direct message" the ACK only includes sender's timestamp, right?
signpost: there's a use-case for the ping/pong mechanism in measuring loss, which would allow me to tune a fountain code
signpost: could implement this atop though.
punkman: I think being able to handle stations with unreliable connection is a good thing. Also why I like "getdata" catchup mechanism.
punkman: would be easy to build ping "on top" of direct message. no need to have in protocol. if building things on top though, would be nice to have a "give me your supported station/client features" direct message command
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057465 << asciilifeform's current thinking is that the 0xFE ack mechanism is braindamaged, and there oughta be a dedicated ACK command message type.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 09:44:21 punkman: "Ignore" msg is not gonna get an ACK with other side's timestamp though, and if "Direct message" the ACK only includes sender's timestamp, right?
asciilifeform atm writing spec sections for 'getdata', 'rekey-offer', 'rekey-slice'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057466 << hm i thought half the appeal of fountains is that no need to measure, the receiver simply says 'enough' when it gets the req'd N of slices
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 10:01:09 signpost: there's a use-case for the ping/pong mechanism in measuring loss, which would allow me to tune a fountain code
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057468 << asciilifeform agrees, tho with the proviso that at least 1 peer in a pair gotta have a reliable (and staticly ip'd) connection
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 11:16:52 punkman: I think being able to handle stations with unreliable connection is a good thing. Also why I like "getdata" catchup mechanism.
asciilifeform: otherwise no way for'em to connect except via hearsay
asciilifeform: (via third peer)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057469 << the 'your supported features' thing is what the 'version' field is for, neh
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 11:24:53 punkman: would be easy to build ping "on top" of direct message. no need to have in protocol. if building things on top though, would be nice to have a "give me your supported station/client features" direct message command
asciilifeform can picture a hypothetical future megaprotocol where can e.g. 'gimme next frame of bingoboingo's film', 'search query'/'result', etc. p2pisms, and need trb-style flag bits to indicate support. these can go in the currently reserved byte. but we aint there yet. )
asciilifeform: for 'getdata', my current approach is: stations have a dedupe buffer (as given in 0xFE) but this is merely a 15min.-long subset of a larger (up to operator) buffer which can be used to answer 'getdata's.
asciilifeform: i.e. built-in logotron of sorts.
asciilifeform also reworking the 'fork' handling mechanism, in light of above -- simply because your station was switched off for a day does not mean that it oughta mark all yer peers as forked -- if it can successfully retrieve unbroken selfchains for all of'em
asciilifeform: and, relatedly: if we have ACKs, then possibly oughta reject in-wot hearsay pertaining to a 'live' peer, categorically ? (how then define 'live' ? when to accept in-wot hearsay again ?)
asciilifeform: and, again relatedly, if we have a concept of 'live', oughta indicate w/ emulated irc join/part msgs on console ?
asciilifeform still not certain ACKs are a good idea at all.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057473 << they have tunable parameters which impact the amount of data necessary to transmit before probability of decoding the message goes to 1
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 11:40:33 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057466 << hm i thought half the appeal of fountains is that no need to measure, the receiver simply says 'enough' when it gets the req'd N of slices
signpost: can certainly just pick values that are pretty good, and piss until other end says enough
signpost: you can make more efficient use of the wire if you have a measurement
signpost: (and yes, can infer from when "enough" comes too)
signpost: so there are different approaches
signpost: I'm not strictly in favor of ping/pong, was just speculating a reason to exist
signpost: also certainly cases where spray-and-pray is desired, and should not ever have an ack from the listener.
asciilifeform: signpost: imho broadcasts oughtn't get ack'd
asciilifeform: re versions -- a 'version' cmdtype would be reasonable, a la trb's (i.e. sends a string)
asciilifeform: 1 side sends 'version' -- other replies with 'version' likewise.
asciilifeform: (again a la trb)
asciilifeform: this'd double as a 'ping' ditto
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057488 << a yes, the redundancy degree
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 11:58:33 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057473 << they have tunable parameters which impact the amount of data necessary to transmit before probability of decoding the message goes to 1
asciilifeform suspects that lubyism will need dedicated experiments to tune properly (and for various scenarios -- long-haul international; gsmism; etc)
asciilifeform recalls the europistan<->piz udp experiment, where iirc was found that packets ~never lost, but occasionally arrive outta order
signpost: yup
signpost: also perhaps MTU discovery comes in, but these are all problems to have once a basic item is in place.
asciilifeform: eh 508byte 4evah, imho
asciilifeform: permitting reassembly is an allcomers hole -- given as you can't authenticate the frags.
asciilifeform: (iirc we discussed in agonizing detail)
signpost: ah, that is a great point.
signpost sets aside.
asciilifeform: btw imho oughta permit >508, but with proviso that the excess bytes are rngola and uninterpreted.
asciilifeform: (this -- pill against whatever nonsensical censor ids that barfs on '508 bytes udp -> evil'
punkman: happy anniversary, 20 years since 9/11. Here's Alex Jones on 9/12
signpost: punkman: "prison planet" is looking pretty apt these days eh?
punkman: signpost: "info wars" as well
signpost: yup, problem with the guy has always been he can't filter
signpost: just gets nic'd up and excited about w/e is fed his way
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-10#1057421 << i enjoyed this, pretty good as a normie marketing campaign for pest too imo
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-10 16:53:45 bingoboingo: Took a break from seeing how dumb I could take bubblewrap chasing sound freaks to lament how Internet unfolded https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd0lc5UkLw4
signpost: still curious why folks want normies anywhere
billymg: i used to be a normie
punkman: signpost: I wonder now though, has Jones even been wrong about anything?
billymg: the default is to start life as a normie, some can break out of it, some can't (or won't)
signpost: seems like sandy hook happened, but what do I know
signpost: billymg: sequencing matters, lest normie uptake corrupt the ability for thinking men to have their freedom.
signpost: if normies end up making it onto thinking-man-net, great! can't be a design goal of the thing though, or in comes "the consumer has come to expect"
signpost: see above where my own desire to maximize bittorrent-esque download speed sucks in an unacceptable compromise (in re: MTU)
signpost: gotta be wary of these.
billymg: signpost: of course, would never suggest to compromise anything (ANYTHING) for the normie
punkman: signpost: if torrent-speed is needed, might as well bootstrap proper torrent connection through Pest
signpost: nah, online-codes provides for a superior swarm-spread of large binwads
signpost: but yeah, one can always use what exists too
signpost: the o-c method doesn't require large MTU, just would possibly squeeze maor bitz
signpost: (also, perhaps because o-c is more efficient, it nets out. worthy experiment at some point)
punkman: well if not torrent, any separate protocol you like
signpost: yup
punkman: "I am getting vilified for pretending to have a crystal ball (which, in fact, I never did) whereas ‘nobody could reasonably predict the outcome of this pandemic’. To me, such allegations simply illustrate that many of our experts and scientists, even including a substantial number of renowned professors, are so stuck within their small silos
punkman: that they have simply lost touch with reality."
bingoboingo: billymg tyvm
scoopbot: New post on Bingology - The Blog of Aaron 'BingoBoingo' Rogier: Dead Internet Theory And Searching For The Sticky
signpost: punkman: https://www.meissavaccines.com/vaccine-pipeline << these folks are apparently working on an attenuated virus vaccine
billymg: voxday is back up at voxday.net, on what looks to be self-hosted wordpress. perhaps even reading the logs?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-08 17:01:56 billymg: it seems like a missed opportunity. i keep waiting for someone like BAP or Vox to come out and say "i've seen the light, we need to get fucking organized with the tools we use to communicate"
billymg: "If you’re on the cloud, you’d better get off it and back onto your own metal as soon as possible. Putting your own data on other people’s machines and relying on the kindness of strangers was always a hideously stupid idea."
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 14:03:41 billymg: the default is to start life as a normie, some can break out of it, some can't (or won't)
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-06-10 asciilifeform: '...what I find among the modern novices is that they do not feel the same way about the experts -- they want an expert-free world where their ignorance is not painful, where their inexperience is not used against them, where they get all the jokes, where nobody uses literary references that elude them, where every one of their ideas is accepted by their peers as just as novel as they think it is...'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057520 << how'bout marketing also for vtron and FG, lol
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 14:01:55 billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-10#1057421 << i enjoyed this, pretty good as a normie marketing campaign for pest too imo
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057528 << recall what they turned e.g. pgp into
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 14:06:32 signpost: if normies end up making it onto thinking-man-net, great! can't be a design goal of the thing though, or in comes "the consumer has come to expect"
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057533 << indeed -- and esp. given no tcp overhead
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 14:09:19 signpost: nah, online-codes provides for a superior swarm-spread of large binwads
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057547 << oblig. asciilifeform circa 2009.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 21:48:41 billymg: "If you’re on the cloud, you’d better get off it and back onto your own metal as soon as possible. Putting your own data on other people’s machines and relying on the kindness of strangers was always a hideously stupid idea."
asciilifeform: apropos, it'd be trivial to serve http (or a successor protocol) via pest.
asciilifeform: (tho aint clear to asciilifeform who, if anyone, is ready for this...)
asciilifeform: at some pt even 'own metal' won't 100% help if it's serving to allcomers incl. gestapo.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057543 << y'know bingoboingo, apparently there is >1 solution to this. for instance asciilifeform doesn't inhabit any spaces infested with bots (incl. meatbots)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 17:22:23 scoopbot: New post on Bingology - The Blog of Aaron 'BingoBoingo' Rogier: Dead Internet Theory And Searching For The Sticky
asciilifeform bbl
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057553 << which is why it's crucial to not compromise anything for the normie (it sounds like we're all in agreement on this tbh)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 22:30:01 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057528 << recall what they turned e.g. pgp into
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 14:07:29 billymg: signpost: of course, would never suggest to compromise anything (ANYTHING) for the normie
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 14:05:23 signpost: billymg: sequencing matters, lest normie uptake corrupt the ability for thinking men to have their freedom.
asciilifeform: billymg: very easy to see re: particular softs and the like; moar subtle rot re ~concepts~ (consider what 'eternal september' did to the net. theoretically we have same net; in practice...)
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057551 << it might not have been obvious but i didn't mean market to the bubble wrap crowd, but rather the thinking people who i assume are out there groping around in the dark for something, anything, that looks like a solution
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 22:29:41 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057520 << how'bout marketing also for vtron and FG, lol
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-07 16:16:22 bingoboingo: Most recent is just popping bubble wrap. Apparently sounds from normal everyday objects is a thing.
asciilifeform: billymg: asciilifeform aint against trying. simply still, i suppose, bitter taste from the weev episode.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 23:07:46 asciilifeform: ^ thread where no less than weev refused to host at pizarro. because ohnoez, mah dns, etc
billymg: asciilifeform: i do think there's a part of me, given career background, that wants to be a "software populist" -- i'll admit that. but i do consciously challenge myself now on every thought i have of how to "win hearts and minds"
billymg: perhaps there really is zero intelligent life that hasn't already wandered in here at some point, but i don't think that's the case and so i think having some type of working funnel could be beneficial
asciilifeform: billymg: arguably the 'funnel' is easier just nao then ever been
asciilifeform: *than
billymg: asciilifeform: easier now because conditions in reich even worse?
asciilifeform: billymg: i meant simply that is very easy to connect to dulapnet. even the rizzo fella, who evidently never heard of irc, managed
billymg: ah
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's earlier point probably worth expanding on. observe how e.g. bitcoin (the actual kind, where you actually hold yer privkeys) has ~to this day~ barely any measurable 'mass uptake'. despite arbitrarily raging totalitarian reich
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-10 13:51:02 asciilifeform: imho the concept of 'messianic' technologies is extremely misguided. by itself even a breakthrough like pgp is entirely inert.
asciilifeform: because 'ohnoez i might lose key' 'ohnoez i might format own hdd by farting on wrong key' etc
asciilifeform: atm there aint even an operating system to give to the hypothetical 'intelligent novice'.
billymg: asciilifeform: certainly not where i assumed btc would be when first took seriously back in '14. i assumed the "hold your own keys so the lizards can't steal from you" would be obvious to all but the dumbest of redditards
asciilifeform: billymg: rather like so many folx assumed 'everyone will make a pgp pubkey -- who wouldn't want to be able to communicate & sign?'
asciilifeform: then turns out, battery chickens dun need pgp.
asciilifeform: ( tho can sometimes be persuaded to 'i-can't-believe-it's-not-pgp' (keybase, etc) )
asciilifeform: the power of delusion is actually greater than of actual cure, for some purposes. consider how the chinese in fact still cross ru border , risking their arse, to hunt siberian tiger.
asciilifeform: or similar morons -- rhino, in africa. why? 'make cock stand' 'but there's xyzpharma' answer : the tiger cocks ~mythically~ 'perma-cure'.
asciilifeform: mythical cure -- more attractive than working spampharma.
asciilifeform: hunt for the tiger's cock delivers moar of what tlp called 'feeling like a trader'
asciilifeform: (i.e. what ted kaczynski called 'the power process')
billymg: i thought kaczynski was speaking of a real drive, one that holding one's own keys would satisfy more than gaming a number on a kyc casino
asciilifeform: billymg: the drive, turns out, is satisfied by the path, not the destination.
asciilifeform: the mystical ritual gives, typically, moar scenic 'path'.
asciilifeform: btw it aint about a lack of technical knowledge, either. asciilifeform very recently again encountered programmers (and not 19yo) who knew about pgp, but still 'i'ma use protonmail! convenient!'
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-05 15:02:46 asciilifeform: or b/w gpg and heathen idiocies a la 'protonmail' & similar
billymg feels that fighting with linuxes, devising schemes to store secrets, developing networks with whom to trade, etc. is quite the scenic route in itself
billymg: and to me at least, more rewarding than would be flipping NFTs on coinbase
billymg: asciilifeform: there is a large group on twitter that is downright religious about "must store own btc priv keys or else you're a cuck"
asciilifeform: billymg: prolly still prb on mswin, to a man. but at least sumthing.
billymg: afaik same group happy to use keybase, protonmail, etc., sure, but imo they're the target demographic for vtrons and pestrc networks
billymg: yes, prb too
asciilifeform: if someone (e.g. billymg) ends up 'taking up the white man's burden' and teaching such folx to pest etc -- a++.
billymg: for me, order was: 1) discover btc, 2) discover logs, 3) realize ~everything to do with computing as is practiced in silicon valley is broken
asciilifeform: simply noting that asciilifeform 1) doesn't expect results from this 2) actively avoids devising any schemes contingent on the interest or participation of the redditus
asciilifeform wouldn't mind to be pleasantly surprised, there
billymg: asciilifeform: i finished digesting your spec this morning, i might take a stab at doing some diagrams of how i visualize the moving parts
asciilifeform: a++
asciilifeform: keep in mind that it aint 100% complete tho
billymg: yup, understood
asciilifeform currently fiddling w/ 0xFD, sadly not yet ready to vpatch
billymg: asciilifeform: is there a reason behind using the command 'PRIVMSG' in pest instead of 'MSG'?
asciilifeform: billymg: observe what section it's in
asciilifeform: billymg: it's what irc messages look like internally. see logotron/bot.py.
asciilifeform: see rfc1459 sect. 4.4.1.
billymg: aha
billymg: so irctrons just map msg to privmsg
asciilifeform: aha
billymg: is key/unkey also part of irc spec?
asciilifeform: mno
billymg: (that wording felt a bit awkward to me)
asciilifeform: again observe which section is in
billymg: ohh, ok i see now what you meant by "which section it's in" (one for irc-compat, one unique to pest)
asciilifeform: 2.5.1. Control Commands are proprietary to pest
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform thinking they oughta be in opposite order
billymg: in that case i think ADDKEY / DELKEY would be clearer
billymg: and map closer to what happens underneath
asciilifeform: initial unpublished draft had 'addkey'/'rmkey' but i like the consistency of 'unkey'/'unpeer'/'ungag'/'unaka'
asciilifeform: ( and the compactness of 'key' 'peer' vs 'addkey' 'addpeer' etc )