Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

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dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-22 08:09:11 mangol: can't resist one more link... re: microkernels, this blog is the thing to read:
mangol: crtdaydreams: glad you're enjoying it! Gernot Heiser is to kernels as Dan Bernstein is to security. down to earth, low BS tolerance, always paying attention to performance and reliability in real applications
mangol: afaict there are two successful microkernel designs: L4 and QNX
mangol: the KeyKOS/EROS research kernel family produced some capability-based security APIs which they are trying to fold back into the L4 family in a way that doesn't hurt performance too badly
mangol: decade after decade, various groups keep trying to make production OSes using something other than L4 as the basis, which afaict is what gives microkernels a bad name
mangol: "There was a serious attempt at porting HURD to L4. It was already working, but the people behind it became disillusioned with the HURD, after realizing flaws on the architecture. I recommend reading the papers the L4 port people wrote on this. Back then, there were some ten to twenty HURD developers active.
mangol: After that, the HURD should have rethought its architecture and moved on with L4. Instead, they didn't continue the L4 effort nor fix the architecture. What they did was abandon it and start an entirely new port to a different microkernel, Coyotos, which didn't bear fruit, either. Throughout all this, the HURD was losing developers as they became disinterested."
mangol: i.e. sounds like CADT model at work again
mangol: Liedtke, the originator of L4, made a working orthogonal persistence OS earlier in his career. some people just keep hitting the right notes as the rest of the field stumbles.
PeterL: << What's the difference between "programming" and "scripting"?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-22 18:43:55 mangol: << python's main achievement was to show that most of what people thought is "real programming" is basically just scripting. a laudable feat
signpost figures the distinction there's an artifact of bad systems, which have entirely different languages for "low level" and "high level" rather than a gradient within one language.
asciilifeform: signpost: iirc traditionally, 'script' was a proggy which 'runs once and done', and typically 'disposable'
asciilifeform: signpost: wholly unrelatedly, iirc signpost had a solartron ? asciilifeform was shopping for such thing (the kind w/ LiFePO battery ) and much to disappointment found that they all seem to demand internet connection
shinohai: You'll pry my init scripts from my cold dead hands.
asciilifeform: ( even came up with a hypothesis re why. vendor makes use of backdoor to stealthily disable battery cycling when mains is present, extending the life of the battery to meet the claimed warranty period of 10y , where otherwise -- if it behaved as programmed by owner -- would not )
shinohai: that HP lappy i bought for the girls had garbage battery, like 3 cellphone batteries in series. lasted 2 years and then fried regulator.
asciilifeform: shinohai: init script good example of 'run once'
shinohai: aha asciilifeform (but i somehow don't see 'em as "disposable")
asciilifeform: shinohai: for 'mysterious' reasons, can't get lappy w/ LiFePO battery (but can get... lamps, asciilifeform's still going strong through all kindsa temperature extremes outdoors for 7+y nao)
signpost: asciilifeform: I've got a "jackery" ~1.5kwh and 4 100W folding panels
signpost: no wifi shit in the former
shinohai: Currently use a ChinkPad mini as daily terminal, at least runs a gentoo
asciilifeform: ah was speaking of the heavier whole-house machines
signpost: nah, just got the portable type for e.g. camping
signpost parked the relocation project to NH to see what great depression prices look like for land.
PeterL: inflation baloon keeps pumping, price might keep going up for a while, who knows when it will pop?
shinohai supposes he will stay parked in Georgia, where at least the castrated boys won't ruin girls volleyball ....
PeterL: don't even need castration, just have to say they "feel like a girl" and can go compete
signpost: PeterL: my current house is reaping the benefits of california flight to texas. NH meanwhile's a mostly rural, low-population area. w/e happens, it'll work out.
signpost: if farms in NH end up 1.5mil, this cardboard box will be 2.5mil.
shinohai: A post in South Florida still not out of discussion though, the girls want it badly.
signpost: shinohai: FL might be coming out way ahead given their total dismissal of the covid paranoia.
shinohai: It's definitely a Summer destination spot, because I have little doubt the "extended weekend" will turn into "just one more week" xD
asciilifeform: << asciilifeform recalls qnx demo floppy from late '90s, was impressed; and came with all kindsa claims 'used in reactors!' etc. but closed mysteryware, and nfi whether in any sense 'alive' today, not that it'd help any
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 08:07:19 mangol: afaict there are two successful microkernel designs: L4 and QNX
asciilifeform: as for the 'l4' thing -- strongly suspect is academitard sadware.
asciilifeform: ( massive ball of c , and with pile of tall claims , but somehow used nowhere )
verisimilitude: I can understand why the more pathetic men become trannies, or at least claim to be them in order to compete, since it's easy for even mediocre men to beat the best women.
verisimilitude: I don't feel the need, however, since I'm also better than the men, in my chosen field.
signpost: cowardice is timeless
asciilifeform: signpost: lol, went to graveyard a la 'amiga'
signpost plays taps
asciilifeform: afaik qnx was 'ball of c', if possibly a high-quality one. unlikely would've survived opensoresing in usable condition
signpost: I recall the same demo floppy btw, booted it up when I was a young man and cramming as many alt-OSen into the same PC as I could.
asciilifeform: aha, similarly
asciilifeform fondly recalls os/2 'warp' etc
signpost favorite was probably BeOS, if for superficial reasons at the time.
signpost: felt shockingly responsive for the era's hardware than linux or win
asciilifeform: was designed around responsiveness aha
asciilifeform: deliberately
asciilifeform: virtually all '80s micros were over9000 moar responsive than current-day pc (whether microshit- or unix- flavour of crippled)
asciilifeform: re qnx -- apparently pseudo-opensoresed in '09
asciilifeform: (supposedly builds -- strictly if you've the official one)
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $42523.11
signpost: heh, that would've been right before selling to RIM for approx 200mil (probably what they owed)
signpost: folks probably wanted to use chunks of QNX elsewhere after selling
asciilifeform: signpost: often enuff, these sales have little to do w/ possible use of the product, and moar to do w/ absorbing the authors
asciilifeform: recall e.g. amd's swallowing of dec alpha
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in orcistan: 'Russia will now accept payment for gas exports to "unfriendly countries" in rubles only...'
asciilifeform: lol human perlscript
signpost expects the thing will be issuing sanctions long after the cardboard movie set has blown over.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 08:05:27 mangol: crtdaydreams: glad you're enjoying it! Gernot Heiser is to kernels as Dan Bernstein is to security. down to earth, low BS tolerance, always paying attention to performance and reliability in real applications
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-20 10:42:32 asciilifeform: for brief time d. bernstein was a kind of exception -- but swamp quickly swallowed him, and for many yrs now he has not been distinguishable from other swamp creatures.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-30 23:35:54 asciilifeform: d4: djb incidentally 'turned' (from '16 or so, openly advocates e.g. the use of prng in place of trng), and asciilifeform has 0 remaining respect for him.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-06-02 asciilifeform: erlehmann: i have nfi what to make of djb at this point. phuctor is the world's largest public showcase of his 'smooth parts of integers' algo, but he refused -- repeatedly -- to answer main re same. and now he's signed his name to a paper full of howlers, e.g. 'let usg nist generate your private key'
dulapbot: (trilema) 2019-03-11 asciilifeform: funny how easy to tell 'the new djb' from 'the old'
asciilifeform: at one pt was 'uppity' figure, then evidently invited to a 'wouldja like to keep yer professorship or would rather pick strawberries' talk, after which this.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-12-17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: near as i can tell, it was a mixture of provocateur shilling and genuinely earnest usefulidjits -- schneier, for instance, was at the time an apparently-earnest 'activist', as was djb (who sued usg at considerable personal expense, and even won in some sense iirc )
mangol: whoa, djb and schneier have yielded? i'm badly out of date on this stuff
asciilifeform: mangol: well it wasn't announced in new york times, lol
mangol: "Corporate Disciplining Bad for One's Health"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 12:55:08 asciilifeform: ..and related.
signpost: mangol: it's what torvalds gets for living in portland, dystopian shithole that it is.
signpost: populated entirely by white neopuritan screeching.
PeterL: signpost: was that where you moved to TX from?
signpost: grew up in texas, lived in portland for a while for a job.
PeterL: so you have first hand experience of the horror
asciilifeform: signpost: asciilifeform suspects that result would've been same if linus had lived in berlin or tokyo
signpost: maybe, but the shit's particularly dense in portland.
signpost: bunch of hormonally imbalanced white bitches screeching because their protestant OS crashed.
asciilifeform: d00d prolly simply got a 'wanna pick strawberries?' letter like djb
signpost: entirely possible
asciilifeform: the obv downside of being a 'respected public' xyz
verisimilitude: If only Linux could've been finished at some point, instead.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: well then he'd already have to pick strawberries
asciilifeform: is good % of why nuffin ever made to be finished.
signpost: nothing so bad about finishing one's work and picking strawberries.
verisimilitude: I'd claim an issue with Free Software, but proprietary software is never made to be finished either.
asciilifeform: linux turned his hobby into a meal ticket, biting reich's hook, what other ending could there be to the story.
verisimilitude: RMS is still fine.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: iirc was evicted from the closed in mit where lived. and dethroned from fsf.
asciilifeform: *closet
verisimilitude: He's the head again.
signpost: (whistles nervously about epstein kompromat)
verisimilitude: He was always the ``Chief GNUsiance'', also.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: he had 'the talk' and agreed to (something), then again nominally 'head', yes
asciilifeform: is 1 variant of how these play out.
verisimilitude: I don't see it that way.
signpost: shown vids of the epstein girls nibbling on his toejam
asciilifeform: observe, verisimilitude , that rms is no longer 'nuisance' to anyone.
verisimilitude: The real difference is RMS is basically a hermit, who gets around traps for normal people.
signpost: there is no such thing as meaningful evasion of "traps", as though rule of law exists.
signpost: either nonthreatening and unsquashed, or otherwise.
verisimilitude: Christopher Knight evaded them for twenty-five years.
signpost: sure, one can commit slow suicide.
signpost: we were discussing someone supposedly active in cultural works.
verisimilitude: I'm hopeless, but this is ridiculous.
mangol: << this. SJW is never about something a person did or might have done. everyone popular gets the FUD -> "kneel!" treatment
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 14:00:37 signpost: there is no such thing as meaningful evasion of "traps", as though rule of law exists.
mangol: fabricated sexual harrasment case, or made someone feel "uncomfortable", etc.
signpost: or juiced in his mercedes as the brakes throw sparks, say.
mangol: that's reseved for people who have dirt on the wrong people afaik
mangol: project leaders just get dethroned from projects
mangol: techrights has good coverage of the way this SJW shit is used as a cover by corporations like MS to take over open source projects
signpost: sure, the guy in question was investigating cia corruption.
signpost: rip hastings
mangol: ofc, also to fork over money and fame to journalists and other groupies of whatever industry they're in the process of ruining
signpost: point being that tactics escalate against level of threat.
signpost: most of these are persuaded to eat some form of their own pistol long before.
mangol: sure. but even without a threat 
mangol: SJWs just get greedy
mangol: straight white man looks out of place in position of power, esp. if he's a nerd. moment of vulnerability -> attack
signpost: mhm. "political" animals, but in the captive sense, rather than builders.
signpost: even this "nerd" thing is a convenient propaganda construction.
signpost: guy who can think must therefore not exercise, know how to shoot, w/e.
signpost: most importantly, must crave populist approval.
mangol: yes. nerds crave approval in the sense that they crave not being humiliated or guilted
signpost: seems a matter of child abuse. kid oughta learn to program, hunt, fight, or to allow heinlein to say it better:
signpost: "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
signpost: Specialization is for insects"
signpost: anyhow hobbling the otherwise most effective people in one's empire will work itself out.
mangol: classic quote. heinlein is the only thinker to date who can say "insect" without sounding condescending
mangol: cause he padded his thought with the egalitarian "a human being should" :D
mangol: yes, will work out, but the collateral damage is the nasty part
signpost: perhaps it's from where I sit, but I read that as most things on two legs not having achieved humanity.
signpost: it's a wry sort of "working out"
mangol: tidal wave of woke will sweep you and your friends along
signpost: rural texans seem to be out-fucking the californian immigrants in the cities, god bless them
signpost: not so woke here yet.
mangol: FL another bastion of relative sanity over there
signpost: somehow! who expected it
signpost was born in FL actually, circus of a place.
mangol: cool
signpost: in problems where the correct solution is "do nothing", FL excels, suppose.
mangol: :D
mangol: the nerd stereotype is reasonable ime. not everyone fits, but hasn't come from nothing.
signpost: any nerd can be repaired with a few months of physical activity away from the keyboard.
mangol: high-functioning nice men [sic] are dangerous to everyone around them. many open source projects have one as a leader
signpost: there's nothing innate about the weakness.
signpost: sure, one may be submissive and not hobbled.
mangol: the physical part is the easy part (nowadays). mental can take a lifetime for some
signpost figures one flows from other, mind not being separate
signpost: most of the "mentally ill" are severely physically ill first.
mangol: a mind can be a fortress of weakness just as well as a fortress of strength
signpost: that indeed.
mangol: "mental illness" isn't about lack of weightlifting, that's one of the dumbest RW memes. it's about hating yourself (because parents were incompetent, or something else didn't go right)
mangol: anyone who doesn't hate themselves and doesn't have obvious physical disability can easily eat and exercise well
signpost: eh. not going to be brought to defend somebody else's stupidity.
signpost: first thing I said was that these had been taught they were innately weak.
signpost: this is a mental matter.
mangol: ah, right. agreed
signpost: second thing I said was that many people feel they are weak because of their inability to maintain the machine.
signpost: this ain't "do you even lift, bitch!"
signpost is of middling fitness at best
signpost: but back on point, can render it more clearly. to enslave at scale, an empire has to distribute the hobbling culturally.
signpost: it doesn't actually have direct power to oppress as many people as it controls.
mangol: agreed
mangol: according to one interview, kgb thought subversion job is done when one generation has been "educated" to their specifications
mangol: get em while they're young and impressionable
signpost: yep, then they'll tell their sons to sit still and their daughters their honor was stolen.
mangol: Ten Types Of Modern Fool ("safe for work" despite URL)
signpost: these days I only work in places that aren't afraid of anus
mangol: ^ article is right on parenting in my experience.
mangol: "How do you get hipsters floating around every city? Successful parents who are cruel to their children produce dropouts, and people who are accustomed to forcing their way on others at jobs tend to take that mentality home and then treat their children like opposing parties in lawsuits, recalcitrant employees and hostile competition."
signpost has this project approaching.
mangol: that's how i ended up at this irc channel, for example
mangol: look at the woke ambassadors on social media -- on a personal level, many have cataclysmic levels of perfectionism
signpost: this thinking of culture as a recursive machine is correct imho
signpost: the places which had drunken, abusive fathers in one generation developed overbearing motherstates in the next
signpost: germany, australia, etc
mangol: feel suicidal if they buy some product that isn't ethically sourced, or accidentally "insult" some victim-group-of-the-month
signpost: it's the urge for religion, which is why I said "honor stolen" about the girls
signpost: more broadly, "correctness of culture"
signpost: you hobble women by telling them it's impossible due to some inalienable part of themselves.
signpost: they can't stop wanting it, thus.
signpost: *thus this broken state which produces teh woke
mangol: interesting. so parenting is an intergenerational yo-yo between too strict and too lenient
signpost: hilariously, this is an unconscious recreation of the conditions they had at christianity's peak; it's worth asking whether christianity ever ended, or merely shed superfluous features.
signpost: well, proceeds by cause, not necessarily back and forth in place.
mangol: we kept the bad parts of christianity (pointless guilt about over 9000 things) and threw out the good (community, family, healthy connection to past and future)
signpost: "Anyone talking about education as a solution is dishonest and probably flamingly stupid inside, no matter how much crap they have memorized on the surface." << would reframe that education as currently exists serves to inflict the child abuse necessary to prolong empire. works fine, just not for you.
signpost: mangol: the fundamental idea is a madness-inducing notion that everyone has direct contact with a personal sovereign voice.
signpost: o/^ your own.. personal.. jesus o/^
signpost: amounts to a sock-puppet as the cosmic voice of authorization.
signpost: maybe we're just stepping backward in terms of history of hobbling ideologies, here.
signpost: letting every fool think they can hear god is the ultimate tower of babel.
mangol: the idea was that the priesthood will guide people back on track when they hear the voice incorrectly
mangol: using carrot and stick of various severity
signpost: yeah, this is the distributed oppression mechanism from earlier. works if they're carrying centrally projected voice of admonition.
signpost: once god dies, the thing becomes a feedback loop where all urges are authorized by godvoice the moment they arise.
mangol: right
mangol: did a substantial number of people take such authority into their own hands in this manner in recent times?
mangol: to me it looks a lot like the death of god left people with most of the negative feelings associated with religious experience, but took out the positive
mangol: or rather, you have to be really skilled to feel good without religion. most people hate freedom.
mangol: with the benefit of hindsight, it's obvious that forcing everyone to make their own meaning would turn into a clusterfuck
signpost: rather than taken into their own hands, they were loaded to capacity with mutually thwarting admonitory voices.
signpost: there stuck.
signpost: and that our rulers weren't immune to it, also gone insane.
signpost: yeah, "make your own meaning" becomes solipsistic hell
mangol: a small % of people have "seeker" temperament and love nothing more than making their own meaning. everyone else is tormented from age 12, give or take.
signpost: would question "making their own" but I take what you mean.
mangol: well, nothing we make is entirely original :)
signpost didn't invent acid, meditation, walks in the forest, w/e
signpost: mostly not, thankfully, haha
signpost: didn't invent english for that matter, or latin.
signpost is curious where signpost begins, at that.
mangol: imho the fundamental problem with liberalism is that a lifestyle that's appropriate for the 5-10% of population with the best genes is foisted on everybody
signpost: sure, ideally society is ordered, with capability and means ascending together.
signpost participated in at least one memberberries project to resurrect such, left with the sense that resurrection is alchemy.
signpost: or, could ask mangol where he thinks liberalism ever existed, also.
signpost: remarkable how quickly those that said this became totalitarian.
mangol: human nature abhors a power vacuum
mangol: most people can't handle liberty which will mess up the society. then the strong people come out of the woodwork
mangol: strong as in good or evil, doesn't matter
signpost: sure, can't form groups without this, entirely natural.
mangol: the salient question is not good or evil (as conventionally understood in our time) but whether or not people will make a mess
mangol: west is now batshit liberal --> epic mess --> cleanup time approaching quickly
signpost: curious how these terms get so twisted. can't even own land outright under this liberalism.
signpost: but yes, cleanup time in the sense that everything powerful appears also to be suicidal.
signpost: schizoid as most are, most everyone at least partly wants to kill himself.
signpost sees the actions of western leaders as this, hoping the drink will end their wretched life, in a way.
signpost: might even be natural balancing mechanisms at work in there.
verisimilitude: [][Before discussing the exploit, it's worth thinking about the higher level problem: how do you update your software on a microcontroller once it leaves the factory? This turns out to be a tricky problem where a bug can result in a non-functional device. To make this problem easier, chip makers like NXP will provide some method to put the chip in a mode that allo
verisimilitude: Oh, too long.
verisimilitude: Getting it right the first time never occurs to them, but they'll get the update mechanism right the first time, ostensibly.
mangol: signpost: agreed to a large extent. it's not that glamorous to be overlord of something like current US or EU
mangol: no matter how wretched our leaders may be, they must occasionally lie in bed at night and realize their legacy will be turning best countries in the world into steaming pile
signpost: creatures that lie as they must to attain the position can't self-model to the point of having guilt.
mangol: probably one of those compulsions where sufferer is aware to some extent but can't help themselves, individually or collectively
mangol: there's some evidence that "psychopaths" (term up for debate) suffer because no matter how cunning and resilient they are, cannot find love
signpost: when you lie for that long, your life depends on mutually incompatible maps of the territory.
signpost: they are definitionally no one.
signpost: sure, they must be the most miserable people on earth.
signpost: each sliver of being horrified at the other.
signpost: verisimilitude: and if not, the update mechanism for the update mechanism surely.
mangol: << that's to be expected. freedom means you can do what you want. when you give more and more freedom, to more and more people, you discover that most people don't want anything constructive.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 15:13:26 signpost: curious how these terms get so twisted. can't even own land outright under this liberalism.
mangol: the theory of liberalism was invented people who are squarely in the top 5-10% of genes, so they intuitively started thinking about tit-for-tat, property rights and things like that
mangol: these genetically gifted people love the hard work of submitting to a principle
mangol: that's freedom to them. most people's freedom is they can take other people's stuff and avoid negative consequences of their actions
PeterL: LISP noob question: why are "when" and "unless" included in the language, can't they both be replaced by "if"?
signpost: implict progn in the body
signpost: just a brevity thing if you're only programming for one of the cases
signpost: (iirc)
asciilifeform: PeterL: classic commonlispism. see also e.g. 'elt' and 'nth' pair, for instance
asciilifeform: ( and yes there's a reason there, but at same time... aint it obv. to the machine whether yer giving a sequence or a cons ? )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-12-22 phf: asciilifeform: elt is a sequence operator, nth is a cons cell operator. cons/car/cdr/nth/list etc. you can express nth in terms of car/cdr. you can't express elt in terms of any of those
verisimilitude: Yes; I use neither, PeterL.
verisimilitude: A COND would be better.
signpost: arbitrary, they're all just macros for arrangements of if/progn/etc
signpost: lots of them probably came from stakeholders bitching that theirs was "better" at the committee
verisimilitude: COND is an original Lisp form.
verisimilitude: It predates IF.
signpost: not speaking of the history, speaking of what COND is in every CL impl on my machine.
signpost: to say nothing of what shitty advice calling something "better" is.
signpost: "some guy on the internet told me this mouth noise was his favorite" is no basis for a system of thinking!
signpost chortles
asciilifeform: mats: in earlier log already
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 13:05:52 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in orcistan: 'Russia will now accept payment for gas exports to "unfriendly countries" in rubles only...'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 15:19:35 verisimilitude: Getting it right the first time never occurs to them, but they'll get the update mechanism right the first time, ostensibly.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-22 17:37:22 asciilifeform: at any rate the net is fulla these spews, 'dontcha know, permanently correct software does not exist, could not exist, because reasons' etc
asciilifeform: over9000x moar hilarious in a 'seekoority'-flavoured goilden toilet, in linked item
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 15:20:05 mangol: signpost: agreed to a large extent. it's not that glamorous to be overlord of something like current US or EU
asciilifeform: role of muppet -- indeed unglamorous
signpost grants the davos reptiles are probably having a fine life.
asciilifeform: << asciilifeform never grasped what underpins this meme -- where is this 'moar freedom'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 16:03:46 mangol: << that's to be expected. freedom means you can do what you want. when you give more and more freedom, to more and more people, you discover that most people don't want anything constructive.
asciilifeform: current-day reich inmate slaves over9000x moar and gets less of anyffin that matters for it, than medieval serf
crtdaydreams: hoi, my webshit is up at
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-18 22:57:27 signpost: "gee golly I'm self deprecating, and HOW!" etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-18 22:25:07 signpost: also you're doing a faux salesman voice thing, stop it pls
crtdaydreams: Having some issues with mime.types // css working.
crtdaydreams: It's serving it but as plaintext
crtdaydreams: Should be resolved soon.
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