watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.093s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.154s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.106s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.106s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.232s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.323s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474
watchglass: 188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.381s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.564s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=630474
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.)
lru: where could I find a collection of proof-of-work alternatives? i.e. ideas that were tried and failed
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-10 21:14:20 asciilifeform: by some defs, it will still 'work' in 3000 a.d. by others, 'never worked'...
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-02 asciilifeform: it is worth recalling the gedankenexperiment where it turns out that all you'd need to build 'martian bank' on earth, is if martians merely supplied an infallible 'martian clock', a service whereby they take a string S , at regular, say, daily, interval, and return its hash H
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-10-20 asciilifeform: ('martian bank' being simply a naive abstraction of 'idealizes swiss bank', where money supply is constant, and i can send from account a1 can send to a2 if and only if i have the privkey for a1, and double-spend - impossible, etc.)
lru: thanks asciilifeform !
lru: sorry for the delay, was deep in thought
lru: to pin down the problem, what I'm currently hoping to find is a way to remove the need for so much wasted CPU
lru: which is why I wanted examples of "failures" so that I could see what other alternatives missed, as well as understanding the original bitcoin design goals
lru: so far I think I've only managed to shift it from a CPU-winner problem to a storage-winner problem lol
lru: well that link to "mining is a bug" logs yielded the idea that splitting mining/CPU and nodes/storage is a bad thing... good to know
lru: what does the -i mean? trb = therealbitcoin, but I'm not parsing the i
lru: so, best not to try to remove winners, but to design the system to favour the right ones... also a hard problem
lru: I would not have equated "virus writer" == "winner" when I first heard of bitcoin :-)
lru: what would you consider "naive fair"? I'm thinking, we have the random distributedness of hash functions, surely there should be some way to use them without working against them
lru: a number of problems, but including making it near impossible to double spend
lru: well, the pow is really just the network agreeing on a set of rules for determining who gets to make the next block... those rules could be anything, so long as everyone can verify that the rules are being followed
lru: 1) hard to obtain, 2) easy to verify, 3) hard to crack
lru: even in the pow method, though, the one who finds the block gets to decide what transactions to include, no?
lru: right, so ideally, the "chosen one" is distributed across the network somewhat evenly
lru: and by "paypalism" I'm assuming you mean "centralized payment processing"?
lru: well, either more expensive, or more expensive to crack, which I'm not sure are the same things
lru: and so might crypto be
lru: I haven't convinced myself that's true yet, but that could just because I'm catching up :-)
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, maybe someone already has a 'cheap pill' for sha256
Apocalyptic: yet bitcoin is not sunk yet because they didn't abuse it
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-15 16:03:13 asciilifeform: i'm not even 100% convinced that 'satoshi' didn't have a shortcut for sha256 in his pocket.
Apocalyptic: I think the search for a better/more meaningful PoW is doomed
Apocalyptic: just reacting to "<asciilifeform> if someone finds 'cheap pill' for your pow, you're sunk."
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-02 asciilifeform: a 'secure prng' is fundamentally THE SAME animal as the 'secure hash' and the 'secure blockcipher'.
Apocalyptic: you're sunk if and only if the attacker wishes it
Apocalyptic: he can quietly mine along and all will seen "well as intended"
lru: that would make it a suppository
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-10-20 asciilifeform: trinque: see thread. mining is not provably costing all of the participants anything.
lru: yeah, that costing structure is key I think
lru: bitcoin relies on the network and the rules... everyone in the network can verify the entire thing, which gets rid of the throne and the magic
lru: has bitcoin not agreed?
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-15 21:46:36 Apocalyptic: I think the search for a better/more meaningful PoW is doomed
lru: the actual services to the network should be what gets rewarded
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-01 asciilifeform: what are ~all~ of the places where A has the ecstasy, but B does the laundry, where A!=B
lru: right... for every potential solution, I must put on black hat and pretend I had mega resources and break it
lru: and if I am ever in doubt as to the effort people will go to earn a virtual buck, all I have to do is look at the 157 quintillion hashes per second the bitcoin network is currently burning into nothingness :-)
lru: hmmmm, hadn't thought of it that way, but at least the bomb was somewhat efficient... the bitcoin case seems more like chopping down hundreds of trees just so nobody else does first
lru: when I first heard of bitcoin, many years ago, I was dubious that it would even pay for the power it needed to run
lru: a farmer that eats more than he can grow is going backwards fast
lru: and from a "getting a coin" perspective, that's fine and cool, but the reason getting coin works that way is separate from the idea of independence / anonymity
lru: again, the cost paid for by others... I'm seeing a theme in this world
lru: that's a lot of words for 10:30 at night though lol will have to leave that tab open
lru: "faint smell of spam and cocaine" lol
lru: it is also only about 12 years old
lru: likely because people see a non-inflationary currency
lru: yep, that's valuable
lru: not sure how bitcoin would help with that