Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-07-06 | 2021-07-08 → ↓
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-11-04#1001446 << reminds me of "To ask "how specifically is it unprincipled" does not yield an answer, at any rate not above and beyond identifying the party asking with the enemy."
dulapbot: Logged on 2019-11-04 19:05:42 asciilifeform: to my shame, mats, i hated kako 'ethnically' , i.e. saw him as unprincipled 'all about the coin' fella. rather like what i nao think of mp .
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-06 17:36:47 mats: if you haven't heard yet, i was also robbed, and there was an extra 0 in my loss
mats: coinbr had my monies
verisimilitude: As the common wisdom goes, isn't that an improper use of the possessive?
asciilifeform: davout: see 1, 2.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-11 04:53:33 jurov: to make matters clear from my side: "withdrawals are possible except for people who ask" === "mpex is in default and thus coinbr too"
dulapbot: (therealbitcoin) 2020-06-06 mats: yes, i understand some of you in here wanted just this outcome
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-13 09:48:38 asciilifeform: jurov: be sure to let yer customers know they weren't stolen from, but rather 'condemned to confiscation by the sovereign'.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'possession is 9/10th of the law'(tm)(r)(c)
asciilifeform: davout: mp committed this act of goxing i suspect simply to see whether any of his remaining cultists would 'blink'. (none did.)
shinohai: Pepperidge farms remembers tho
kakobrekla: and when it happend to me, instead of doing a bank run, the good folx here (and there) were "kako had it coming"
kakobrekla: its like i gave you "a++" platform to get the fuck out, and you poor fuckers walk over me
kakobrekla: pure insanity from my pov
punkman: my instinct was that everyone would get kako'd eventually, guess it wasn't wrong
kakobrekla: my name was verbalized!
kakobrekla: can drown in peace now.
punkman: I tried playing Eulora, was another point of losing hope
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-03-10 punkman: diana_coman: i just hated everything about it. moving/finding things in inventory, trying to equip things and and ending up with phantom copies if I didn't click just right. Trying to walk and floating at a 45 degree angle, falling to death off smooth hills. The claim sticks that are "points" in space and keys and... I dunno. I suppose some of that might have changed already.
punkman: I wonder how it looks now :P
thestringpuller: shinohai: meanwhile o3de just dropped so I'm kinda astounded they tried to build a graphics pipeline out of cyrstalspace which is a dead end at this point
thestringpuller: also sinbad's Ogre3D has been out for years and I think just added vulkan support iirc
shinohai: thestringpuller: Most I ever did with Eulora besides play a bit was fuck about with jurov's lisp listener for it. Managed to get it echo back game activity/trades to irc. That's about it.
shinohai: The C++ side was just too gnarly to maintain my interest in it.
thestringpuller: reading diana_coman's blog on eulora dev was like reading a 3D Game Dev book from circa 2002; would have been impossible to use modern GPU tactics in the 3d engine that was tightly coupled with the client
thestringpuller: at that point why not write voxel engine from scratch? *shrugs*
punkman: just picking planeshift was a terrible decision
punkman: and then spending 6-7? years fighting the thing instead of throwing it out
punkman: ah no, apparently diana started in 2016
thestringpuller: when i tried doing a 3d pipeline export from blender it was like writing max script for 2004 to export 3d models without middleware which is one of the most painful aspects of game development (like late 90s console development)
asciilifeform: punkman: what ought they have picked instead in '16 ?
asciilifeform: (as i understand, the intent was to make 100% from-source 3d thing. i.e. w/out dependence on gpu driver turds. which inevitably means '1990s' style. )
asciilifeform: ftr '1990s 3d graphics' does not have to mean 'rubbish', if talented programmers are involved. (simply so happens that in the s.mg case -- they weren't involved..)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 11:24:46 punkman: I tried playing Eulora, was another point of losing hope
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-27 10:54:47 asciilifeform: managerial types luvv these to death, they reliably produce 'steady labour' flavour that satisfies performance metrics, whether bureaucratic (reich orgs incl. usg) or sadomasochistic (mp's)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043301 << i could be wrong, but iirc most mpex users in fact got out even before kakobrekla was walked on.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 10:58:04 kakobrekla: its like i gave you "a++" platform to get the fuck out, and you poor fuckers walk over me
asciilifeform: asciilifeform, otoh, didn't even have an acct. was in for entirely different reasons.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-02-04 13:46:08 asciilifeform: mp was talented mountebank, a la barnum, and in #t maintained an addictive, to many folx, atmosphere of 'движуха' (untranslatable, but roughly 'errything in motion!!', 'happening!')
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: what ought they have picked instead in '16 ? << roll voxel engine that runs purely on CPU then. although GPU drivers do indeed suck, you either choose to stay in 1994 circa PSX (as stated plenty of good games use this aesthetic) or tolerate the turd and use modern aesthetics by leveraging the card
thestringpuller: was half expecting announcement of "eulora GPU" at some point
kakobrekla: asciilifeform how many scam-schisms before bb fiasco and consequent ba split?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: hm which ones are you thinking of ? ( possibly the 'otc' schism which produced 'assets' ? this was before asciilifeform tuned in -- though it oughta be in log, under #t, asciilifeform imported phf's dump which in turn was purported to go back to '11 )
asciilifeform: ( for folx who downloaded db -- is marked 'era 0' )
asciilifeform: crib sheet: 'eta 0' -- above; 'era 1' - #b-a; 'era 2' -- trilemic period when phf had the only reliable logger; 'era 3' -- all fleanode log post-dating 2 (and to present day); 'era 4' -- dulapnet.
asciilifeform: there is in fact a mix of '3' and '4' lines entered on a typical day now.
davout is interested in downloading said db
asciilifeform: davout: link at the bottom of log page.
asciilifeform: it's a cron and runs erry hr.
davout: ty
asciilifeform: there's one db covering all chans, and subsumed all previous loggers. (the only chan removed was #eulora, after mp kicked snsabot out of it in a fit of 'will buy ticket and then walk! to spite the conductor!')
asciilifeform: davout: next to that link is 'source', goes to my www and complete version history of this logotron.
davout: i'm mostly interested for historical purposes
davout: archiving for posterity
asciilifeform: davout: it's there, and if you want commented schema, see src link.
davout: thank you
asciilifeform: billymg has a mirror (tho his aint tuned into dulapnet yet) so it's unlikely to get lost, even when asciilifeform drowns
asciilifeform: moar mirrors, however, the merrier.
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043315 << I still remember NeHe productions and such.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 12:38:07 thestringpuller: reading diana_coman's blog on eulora dev was like reading a 3D Game Dev book from circa 2002; would have been impossible to use modern GPU tactics in the 3d engine that was tightly coupled with the client
mats: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1043284 << if you dont think btc can survive contact with fiat institutions, whats been the motivation behind your btc involvement?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-06 19:23:07 dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-06 18:28:29 asciilifeform: mats: depends who eats whom, doesn't it.
shinohai: Most fiat institutions not running real node, and seem to be all about "muh layer-2!" from my view.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043352 << imho, btc and fiat-institutions will eternally fight until one devours the other. asciilifeform's orig. involvement was outta curiosity, to see how the hell 'david' not yet succumbed to 'goliath'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 14:47:14 mats: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1043284 << if you dont think btc can survive contact with fiat institutions, whats been the motivation behind your btc involvement?
davout: i think it's a false dichotomy to consider to be either "fiat" or "butts"
thestringpuller: davout: came to that conclusion a few years ago
asciilifeform: davout: some form of fiatola will always exist, strictly because more bovine-convenient.
asciilifeform: q is whether the printolade-fueled usury 'industry' will succeed in doing to bitcoin what ibm&microshit succeeded in doing to linux.
thestringpuller: i remember asciilifeform saying "spending BTC is like sawing off piece of limb" - very much feels this way the longer goes on. would rather spend whatever comes out of the main cash flow nozzle
davout: asciilifeform i have no problem with this kind of scenario
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: imho the current exch rate consists largely of air, and is in fact part of the current lizard ploy to 'drop btc from a plane without a parachute' by pumping and periodically dumping
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-05 19:56:14 asciilifeform: it worx because there's a neverending supply of a) dumb shits who see 'paper gold' as == to actual b) greedy shits who want 'leverage'
davout: after all linux runs most of the interwebz under the hood
asciilifeform: davout: have you seen what the 'current' 'linux' consists of ?
davout: asciilifeform how would that work?
davout: i reckon buttcoin will be an order of magnitude harder to coopt
asciilifeform: davout: how does what work ? do you seriously think that the current exch rate is what it is on acct of salarymen spending their pennies to buy coin ?
davout: i honestly have no idea
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-10 20:36:13 asciilifeform: shinohai: musk plays a very predictable and straightforward role in the usg.spectable -- helping to maintain the volatility.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: haven't read too much up on it, but el salvador seems to be pulling stunt modeled after this with their "bitcoin wallet". will receive currency in it, can pay bills through it, but can you withdraw coin to personally controlled private keys? (spoiler you can't)
mats: as btc matures its harder to credit the exchange rate bogeyman
asciilifeform: davout: possibly you missed, while flying planes, but the fiatolacorps succeeded in 'embrace & extinguish' attack against linux; which is why asciilifeform is having to single-handedly maintain a complete gentoo repo simply to run his biz
mats: volatility doesnt hurt anyone but speculators and margin traders
thestringpuller: very surprised coinbase hasn't nailed the bitcoin exit doors shut permanently - and go the "gold note" route with bitcoin. (robinhood, cashapp, and venmo, all have gone this route)
asciilifeform: mats: explain to me how volatility 'doesn't hurt' say a hypothetical asciilifeform who actually needs (as mp would have had it, if i'd have agreed to take the $10k/mo rack) the coin to cover the bill
mats: sucks for you
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: option contracts?
asciilifeform: sucks for anyone doing anything resembling honest commerce, mats
asciilifeform: or what am i missing
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: with whom?
asciilifeform: 'volatility is a tax'(tm)(r)(pre-braindamage mp)
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: me personally or in general?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: you has said, 'options contracts'. where are these trustworthy entities with whom one ought to be executing such contracts?
asciilifeform: (don't tell me... 'mpex' !1111)
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: in general, trustworthy person like jurov who is willing to interface with the turds for you at your risk tolerance level - personally i built up local rolodex cash brokers, some willing to underwrite contracts for cash
asciilifeform: don't tell me that you think 'bitcoin finance' actually exists. it does not exist. may have briefly, somewhere, existed, and may exist in the future, but afaik currently there's only two known kinds -- mpex-style, where anarchic but 'we'll take yer money, haha, moron, for trusting' and 'kyc' -- i.e. reich's attempts to
asciilifeform: embrace&extinguish bitcoin; often enuff not even operates w/ actual tx, but with paper surrogates.
thestringpuller: easier to just go local. like placing bet with local bookie whom's family has been running books since the babe ruth era...
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: observe that i did not bank at coinbr. because understood that -- yes, he can 'interface' -- but cannot somehow insure against the bear trap snapping shut, as it was quite obviously, imho certain to at some pt.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: how does an outsider find a trustworthy 'local' ?
asciilifeform: don't tell me 'local-bitcoins' or i'ma die of laffter
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: word of mouth: parties, bulletin boards, meetups etc.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: as i understand, in e.g. uy where BingoBoingo, is different, but in usa some yrs back it became more or less customary to stfu about possibly having btc, when in public
asciilifeform: i picture was rather similar w/ gold during reign of fdr.
asciilifeform: i'm not even 100% certain that is from 'political' reason, either -- may simply be that no one wants to part w/ coin anymoar under whatever pretext.
thestringpuller: depends on the state; i imagine new york is probably a lot like running drugs. whereas I imagine SF is probably a lot of mETH heads
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i can only comment re: where observed personally. there is for all practical purposes 0 detectable 'local bitcoin scene', near as asciilifeform can tell.
asciilifeform: (your mileage may vary, esp. if yer a social buttefly, or if you think that a bitcent going this way and that way is a 'trading scene')
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: iirc (don't want to speak for jurov or violate too much confidence), but he in theory could navigate other turds other than mpex, for instance bitstamp and other EU exchanges fwiw
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i cannot speak for jurov , but afaik he has never expressed interest in 'running an mpex'.
asciilifeform: theoretically, i suppose, could. but neither him nor anyone in my l1 afaik is interested in such a thing; it is moar or less suicide mission imho (which is why mp in fact stopped, effectively, when 'went private')
thestringpuller: i agree, establishing initial connection in local scene is difficult. but so is learning ffa, or setting up trb, etc to some degree; i view it same way as comic trading/collecting scene which is very localized through networks of locally owned comic book stores
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i'm unable to refute the hypothetical existence of an underground network of mp-style moneybags trading btc to/from bags of fiatola while puffing on 'havanas'. but i am not part of such a network and do not realistically expect to be, it is 'dark matter' from my pov.
asciilifeform: what i ~am~ aware of the existence of, is an enormous 'astroturf culture' of half-starved wretches engaging in reddit-'commerce' w/ each other and where 1 in 5 is usg provocateur.
asciilifeform: ~that~ is the only 'meatspace bitcoin scene' accessible 'off the street'.
thestringpuller: i mean you don't go to the crack house expecting to meet the kingpin if that's what you're saying...
asciilifeform: you go to the crackhouse if you intend to smoke crack. and i've no such intent.
asciilifeform: (nor interested in the 'civilized' end of the idiocy spectrum, where various 'respectable' biz which purport to 'work w/ btc' but demand my passport . FUCK them, with red hot poker. )
thestringpuller: there is a reason culturally the plug generally doesn't meet anyone "off the street"
mats: this thing where you're only interested in bearer instruments is understandable, but acting like certified instruments are inherently scamtronic is nuts
asciilifeform: mats: iirc you pay tax in usa, and so oughta understand why i regard 'plugged into irs' as synonymous w/ scam.
mats: if you don't trust the issuer, then sucks for you, don't be ridiculous
thestringpuller: mats: kyc based platforms are like instantaneous surveillance tho
thestringpuller: you send any BTC through them you're gonna be tracked for life
asciilifeform: it aint as it it were some kind of secret, that they mandatorily put errything you touched in dossier.
asciilifeform: nor (as pointe out upstack) can you easily get ~genuine~ coin out of a kyc-shithole. iirc jurov reported that he found not 1 which was willing to send to non-segshitness addr.
asciilifeform: *pointed
asciilifeform: i am hard pressed to see what aspect of an item like 'coinbase' ~isn't~ scamatronic.
mats: cme does a fuckton of volume in btc futures and nobody's been scammed to date, that doesn't mean they'll never exit scam but their record to date is worth ~something~
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: you would have to talk with the Samourai Devs, not much on them in the logs. or on whirlpool.
asciilifeform: mats: how do i use cme without plugging in passport & bank acct etc ?
thestringpuller: you could in theory "liberate coins" from coinbase but what's the point?
mats: its cash settled, what the fuck do you want them to do?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i'm not interested in passport traps.
thestringpuller: still giving them passport
mats: 'bitcoin finance doesn't exist' is absurdism, can't believe you're saying any of this and not trolling
asciilifeform: from my pov it does not exist. because a system where i gotta put in passport and have all tx reported to usg, aint bitcoin.
asciilifeform: it's bitcoin-flavoured. y'know, like the 'chocolate flavoured' pseudochocolate they sell in usa.
thestringpuller: mats: fiat finance using bitcoin as underlying asset exists centrally; however i've only seen "bitcoin finance" function at local 1 on 1 levels any larger and it topples over
asciilifeform: 'bitcoin finance' would be if i could do biz with a pgp pubkey strictly, and with 0 questions about meatspace identities etc. y'know, as mp purported to.
asciilifeform: almost decade ago, asciilifeform predicted that all such 'financiers' would succumb to temptation of scamming. and afaik all did, or fell victim, jurov-style, to upstream operators who did.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: this purportedly exists in shadows online realms, but i have no experience here so can't opine.
asciilifeform: the remaining ops are 100% usgtronic, i.e. 'passport please!'. count me out.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043419 That's hilarious. I'd no knowledge it was so bad. There's absolutely no reason to use those, then.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:30:34 asciilifeform: nor (as pointe out upstack) can you easily get ~genuine~ coin out of a kyc-shithole. iirc jurov reported that he found not 1 which was willing to send to non-segshitness addr.
signpost: finance with bitcoin as foundation will require a catastrophic event.
mats: theres plenty of shadow banking, you just dont want to get involved because afraid of your own shadow or whatever
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: why do you think usg hunted down and killed e.g. btc-e ?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: they left ~one~ Official exchange in usa, thoroughly in reich's pocket, 'coinbase'
asciilifeform: mats: i'ma have to take your word for it; and if you're right, my loss, your gain, etc
verisimilitude: I didn't think, because I'm not paying any attention.
mats: i.e. you can go through the same hoops to move dollars into ar peso
mats: shadow banker tells you to wire to some rando corp in hk, bike courier shows up with money
asciilifeform: mats: when dollars move ( i dun get paid in physical dollars.. ) usg knows in realtime where goes/comes every cent.
mats: so go to the bank branch and ask for cash
asciilifeform: mats: tried this recently ?
verisimilitude: I saw a fool I know showing me ``his'' dogecoin in ``his'' Robinhood account. I tried to educate him, but he wouldn't listen.
asciilifeform: ( go in and try e.g. 10btc's worth of cash.. )
mats: i had no problems getting near five figs of physical usd when i visited hk
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: if you were to interact with "shadow GPG identity" for doing bitcoin finance, wouldn't you still have to get to know this entity in some way even if names aren't mentioned to establish trust?
mats: idk if this works in us, probably need oc or hawala connects if you don't want to scan an id
asciilifeform: mats: iirc (ianal) in usa mandatory report threshhold is 1-2k$
mats: nah, 3k is the optional limit
mats: mandatory is at 10
asciilifeform: (and there's a hilarious -- from safe distance -- article in the penal code for merely knowing about it and 'structuring to avoid' )
asciilifeform: wb PeterL
mats: the problems youre describing are american i think
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: where are these folx, doing biz via pgp, that i oughta be establishing trust with ?
thestringpuller: mats: i think bitcoin hawala exists; but i'm not in the broker business (just use a personal one)
asciilifeform: afaik , thestringpuller , they're all here. to a man.
mats: not bitcoin's fault you insist on living inside the wire
asciilifeform: mats: where are you current, if it aint a seekrit ?
asciilifeform: *currently
mats: california
asciilifeform: lol!! and from there 'you insist on living in the wire!' ??
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i imagine the same people probably skimming prepaid credit cards - and sitting on 0 day exploits for profit.
mats: somehow i live in the us and i don't have your problems
mats: talk to more people
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-06 17:36:47 mats: if you haven't heard yet, i was also robbed, and there was an extra 0 in my loss
PeterL: asciilifeform: my experience has been that Coinbase works for small amounts of transfers btc<->usd, if you don't want to interact with them you could use someone else here as an intermediary?
mats: salting the wound are we
asciilifeform: mats: not intending to. simply pointing out that it's a choice of which problem to suffer.
asciilifeform: rather than 'hey, idjit, why are you sitting in usa'
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i'm curious why you are opposed to meatspace?
mats: since the early days discovering btc, i spent years building nets so i could transact kyc free
mats: its not cheap but it works
asciilifeform: mats: a++; mp bragged about similar.
signpost: perhaps slightly more interesting than this is what infrastructure it'd take to satisfy asciilifeform's definition of btc finance.
asciilifeform simply doesn't have the necessary degree of extraversion to work as mp.
asciilifeform: signpost: imho is unsolved problem. recall that even when mpex 'functioned as printed on the box' i scorned it, because ~could~ scam.
asciilifeform: (and specifically because pyramidal, and ~must~ at some pt. wasn't wrong)
mats: market participation requires trusting ~somebody~
asciilifeform: i also suspect that this formulation of the problem -- 'how to safely interface btc with fiatola' -- may be an intrinsically wrong formulation, and intractable as stated;
asciilifeform: imho thing to do is to develop ~actual commerce~ in btc.
signpost: this is my reaction to this thread, need more actual things happening in crypto
asciilifeform: where, in selected contexts, ~don't need to care~ about e.g. usd rate.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's isp is an example of this.
asciilifeform: (halfway, arguably, as still priced in reference to saecular exch rates. but this largely to avoid 'FG problem' where 'wtf, you want 100,000$ for server? maniac')
signpost expects someone yet to generalize a bitbet-shaped system with reputation, and many parties acting as oracles for w/e real-world events.
asciilifeform: signpost: iirc we discussed similar even in '15 (but grr, cannot locate thrd..)
signpost: the ethereum shitcoin stack approximates this badly.
asciilifeform: purports to, aha
thestringpuller: signpost: interesting. would you be wililng to elaborate on how the bitbet-shape would work in your mind?
verisimilitude: The only way I'll ever get Bitcoin is as payment for some service; there's naught wrong with that.
asciilifeform: but picture if there had been such a thing, and was bet re who wins potus election !
mats relives glory days of 2016
signpost: thestringpuller: see e.g. "chainlink" for other gropes at the problem, how to connect on-chain smart contracts with real world events
thestringpuller: signpost: ty
verisimilitude: It's simply disconcerting how quickly time passes, isn't it, mats; it doesn't feel as if I've been here for over a year already.
verisimilitude: Remembering 2014 feels like old history.
verisimilitude: It's not pessimism when it's true.
mats: ah yes, financial ethnonationalism
asciilifeform: mats: not even 'ethnic' pov, but simply 'show me someone with $B who isn't part of a scammer clique'
mats: i can imagine all kinds of ways to massage the definition of scam
asciilifeform: no need to massage, we have in our 'museum' the platinum standard to refer to..
mats: 'exploitation' of people without capital, by using their own capital to build a successful biz, and then retroactively 'scammer' because not organised as a worker co-op or whatever
mats: this is bog standard american financial ethnonationalism
verisimilitude: Money itself is evil.
davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043375 <<< bitcoin is a couple of orders of magnitude harder to "extend" imo
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:04:39 asciilifeform: davout: possibly you missed, while flying planes, but the fiatolacorps succeeded in 'embrace & extinguish' attack against linux; which is why asciilifeform is having to single-handedly maintain a complete gentoo repo simply to run his biz
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: imho -- money is an inanimate object. evil people -- are evil.
asciilifeform: davout: didja miss the segshit 'extension' ?
asciilifeform: go an' try to buy an actual coin nao, from the heathens.
verisimilitude: Inanimate objects or concepts can be evil.
davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043382 <<< you're missing the whole notion of 'hedging' which is really not financial rocket science
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:06:10 asciilifeform: or what am i missing
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: does coin that goes into segshit address then comes out of it still count as fungible coin to you? or is coin forever mutilated...?
asciilifeform: davout: hedging worx if you have 1) with what 2) with whom.
asciilifeform: ( and 3) not have usg standing over your shoulder, taking 1/2 of erry coin sold for usg )
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: not 'forever mutilated' , but requires 'washing', which costs time, effort, and tx fee
mats: while the wealth gap is unfortunate and its very sad all sorts of people are hopeless, its entirely predictable with the advance of science, technology, civilization's collision with the internet, and i don't see a problem with that
asciilifeform: mats: the 'science' of bamboozling people with elaborate 'instruments' indeed advanced amazingly.
mats: imho the inequality gap is expanding at about the same rate as the knowledge gap, the median person is more useless than ever
asciilifeform: mats: i dun even disagree.
mats: so what to do about that?
mats: idgaf
asciilifeform aint in the biznis of 'what do? about saving the whales!!' etc
asciilifeform: '1st save yerself'
mats: but how do you align this agreement with 'billionaires are scammers, definitionally'
asciilifeform: mats: very simply. recognize that you are prey in an ecosystem with predators. hare does not sit to think how to kill all wolves (maybe does? if somehow he has time on his hands?)
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043520 << Keys of This Blood by Malachi Martin had a decent chapter explaining how inanimate things can be evil.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:02:26 verisimilitude: Inanimate objects or concepts can be evil.
asciilifeform: gregory4: i'm familiar with the pov.
asciilifeform: read ted kaczynski even.
verisimilitude: I'll keep the title in mind.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:30:34 asciilifeform: nor (as pointe out upstack) can you easily get ~genuine~ coin out of a kyc-shithole. iirc jurov reported that he found not 1 which was willing to send to non-segshitness addr.
mats: hares are opportunistic carnivores
mats: like many prey animals
asciilifeform: it's the single most pessimistic pov i know of, gregory4 , cuz if 'money is evil' then we're fucked for eternity, the ~idea~ of money aint going anywhere
verisimilitude: Humans advance society, and those benefiting the most certainly aren't human.
asciilifeform: davout: interesting ( but have you tested recently ? ) if so
davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043424 <<< at some point if you want to fuck you're gonna have to take your dick out
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:31:37 asciilifeform: mats: how do i use cme without plugging in passport & bank acct etc ?
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043536 << how far does this PoV of yours extend? if elite-controlled inflation (Fed. Reserve) did not exist, would you still think this way?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:07:12 asciilifeform: mats: very simply. recognize that you are prey in an ecosystem with predators. hare does not sit to think how to kill all wolves (maybe does? if somehow he has time on his hands?)
davout: asciilifeform i don't recall exactly when, but as far as i can remember, somewhere last year
davout: sometime*
verisimilitude: Capitalism has as much to do with the modern technology as communism, which is to mean next to nothing.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:09:18 davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043424 <<< at some point if you want to fuck you're gonna have to take your dick out
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 14:57:19 thestringpuller: i remember asciilifeform saying "spending BTC is like sawing off piece of limb" - very much feels this way the longer goes on. would rather spend whatever comes out of the main cash flow nozzle
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043540 << Kaczynski was drugged involuntarily as a child, which should be considered a crime against humanity.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:07:55 asciilifeform: read ted kaczynski even.
verisimilitude: Money alone does nothing. A man with a mind is necessary.
mats: again, why not use a cutout
gregory4: as such, I feel quite sorry for the man, notwithstanding his later crimes.
asciilifeform: gregory4: imho d00d was a hero.
mats: surely you can trust your best mate from grade school
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:35:48 asciilifeform: the remaining ops are 100% usgtronic, i.e. 'passport please!'. count me out.
mats: what a guy
asciilifeform: davout: thread is rather all over the place, but wait, you are running a futures exch ?
asciilifeform brb,teatime
signpost: possibly lucky it was not as early as kaczynski
mats: i've gotten a lot of value out of quasi btc finance, like putting up coin for usd loans so i can maintain my long
davout: no, but i've had a decade with countless opportunites to exit scam, which i miserably failed to do, you know me personally, how can you say you'd have no counterparty should you wish to trade?
mats: happy to give over my passport to a registered lender if it means i can defer cgt
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:14:07 signpost: gregory4: http://trinque.org/2019/09/02/quetiapine/ been there
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:35:48 asciilifeform: the remaining ops are 100% usgtronic, i.e. 'passport please!'. count me out.
davout: fuck, wrong quote
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:41:07 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: where are these folx, doing biz via pgp, that i oughta be establishing trust with ?
mats: jurov too
mats: honestly i think you'd get at least 3 takers for nontrivial sums if you just put it in the -otc book
mats: episking is still around, darsie does stuff, tbz idles, joecool, etc...
davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043488 <<< for a meaningful discussion i suppose it would make sense to distinguish cashola and bankola
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:49:04 asciilifeform: i also suspect that this formulation of the problem -- 'how to safely interface btc with fiatola' -- may be an intrinsically wrong formulation, and intractable as stated;
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:01:15 verisimilitude: Money itself is evil.
davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043526 <<< why? coins that went through segwit adresses have the exact same properties as normal coins when sitting in normal addresses, what would there be to wash?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:04:10 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: not 'forever mutilated' , but requires 'washing', which costs time, effort, and tx fee
verisimilitude: I won't pretend I'm not strange.
verisimilitude: Who wants to be a normal person, nowadays?
verisimilitude: They're downright disconcerting to observe.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:14:07 signpost: gregory4: http://trinque.org/2019/09/02/quetiapine/ been there
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:16:59 mats: honestly i think you'd get at least 3 takers for nontrivial sums if you just put it in the -otc book
asciilifeform: the thing is, it aint that asciilifeform 'doesn't trust' e.g. davout . it's that there's more than 1 way to lose errything, counterparty may not be a scammer, but may be at risk for dekulakization because he, in turn, uses 'passport please!' systems, or, alternatively, mpex, etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:17:35 mats: episking is still around, darsie does stuff, tbz idles, joecool, etc...
verisimilitude: What's wrong with not trusting others?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043590 << key is 'went'. they have to ~no longer be in~ an anyone-can-spend to count as genuine btc per asciilifeform's pov
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:23:16 davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043526 <<< why? coins that went through segwit adresses have the exact same properties as normal coins when sitting in normal addresses, what would there be to wash?
davout: again, you need to trust someone at some point
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: nothing , until you need to buy/sell sumthing
davout: verisimilitude it's neither a realistic expectation, nor a satisfying way to live one's life
davout: asciilifeform yeah of course, as long as they're sitting in a normal address previous history is of zero relevance, i think we're in agreement here
asciilifeform: davout: per trb mechanics -- factual
davout is writing about taleb's buttcoin "black paper". guy lost some davout points
asciilifeform: (no one is getting, realistically, a 100+blk reorg)
verisimilitude: Once someone asked me something like how I'd feel if someone besides myself depended on any software of mine that happened to be flawed. I replied it would be funny if someone were damned by completely trusting a stranger and doing no checking beforehand.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: asciilifeform ftr believes that the 'power of wot' has limits. and i like to formulate it as 'alchemist problem' : a 100% secure wot will help you to choose e.g. a plumber who does honest work. but it will NOT, no mater how constructed, help you to choose an ~alchemist~ who does honest work to make elixir of immortality and philosopher's stone for you.
asciilifeform: sometimes the very statement of the problem preselects for fraud.
asciilifeform: (and if not direct fraud -- then 'N degrees away', e.g. jurov imho was and remains 100% honest, himself -- but relied on mpex.. )
asciilifeform: if you are asking for something impossible -- you ~will~ be defrauded, if you persist in asking.
verisimilitude: Well, the phrasing I'd used at the time was ``I trusted a stranger to write code I trusted my life to. How could this be happening?''.
asciilifeform: someone ~will~ be found, who defrauds your friend's friend, and your friend will sell you, while himself duped, into the fraud.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ever flown in a passenger plane?
asciilifeform: aite, try not to walk under'em..
verisimilitude: Besides, that's different. Plane software actually has standards.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: used to.
asciilifeform: today, cpp and indian 'low bidder'.
verisimilitude: Compare that to Suckless.
asciilifeform: missed the boeing scandal, didntcha, verisimilitude .
asciilifeform: so then
verisimilitude: It's still better than some random dipshit on github.
asciilifeform: possibly still. today. and maybe tomorrow. but i fully expect is approaching .
asciilifeform: you'd be surprised, verisimilitude , at how much 'dipshit on github' and 'adults in critical systems' increasingly converging.
verisimilitude: I wouldn't.
verisimilitude: It's awful how humans have done so much in computing, and now capitalists throw it to Indians to save some pennies.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in late su there was a song (nominally about sovok, but..) 'chained with one chain'. they haven't a choice.
verisimilitude: There are too many ``people'' and too few humans on this planet.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: recurring leitmotif. but what about it.
verisimilitude: For the logs, humans here are those who can actually think, which only mostly follows racial lines.
asciilifeform: upstack, thinking about davout's pov , asciilifeform suspects that the 'cultural divide' b/w e.g. asciilifeform on one end, and davout , mats , on other, is that the latter simply can afford to take serious risks.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:43:31 davout: verisimilitude it's neither a realistic expectation, nor a satisfying way to live one's life
asciilifeform: when poor -- cannot.
mats: someday alf has to tell me the story of how he met his SO
asciilifeform: mats: maybe when we go to kako's to drink for the fuhrer's repose
mats: lol
shinohai: [~]D
davout: let's make it a scuba-diving themed get together
asciilifeform: or parachuting.
asciilifeform: 'it's better than from vodka or from colds!'(tm)(r)(v.vysotsky, 'mountain climber')
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043441 << btw I think one of their guys was arrested in Greece. not sure if they extradited yet.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:36:27 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: why do you think usg hunted down and killed e.g. btc-e ?
asciilifeform: punkman: it was a non-reich exchange. so, 'had to die'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:54:36 verisimilitude: It's awful how humans have done so much in computing, and now capitalists throw it to Indians to save some pennies.
punkman: asciilifeform: you know every last small-business-man somehow figures out how to steal from USG or insert-gov-here.
punkman: I don't get this obsession with "fiat is impossibru, uncle sam gonna get me"
asciilifeform: punkman: is very easy (while taking care to remain small) -- until it aint
asciilifeform: punkman: i pay ~50% tax rate. plus, regularly, various penalties when usg decided it somehow wasn't enuff.
asciilifeform: i'ma eat my hdd before i ever buy or sell a btc at a usg.exchange.
punkman: Istanbul is pretty hot place if you wanna do btc-to-cash right now btw
asciilifeform: punkman: what am i to do with the cash? stuff in arse ?
punkman: mentioning for anyone that might be interested
mats: binance is the bigger better handsomer btc e anyway
asciilifeform: punkman: iirc mp was interested, but guest of poseidon nao
asciilifeform: (fella wouldnt shuddup about istanbul)
asciilifeform: mats: can translate plz to peasant, for asciilifeform's enlightenment?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 17:13:07 asciilifeform: punkman: iirc mp was interested, but guest of poseidon nao
punkman: also if anyone is interested, 9 btc gets you permanent EU residency and villa in .gr
asciilifeform: punkman: can't resist to ask, where ? basileus himself, signed with his pgp key, on foreignministry.gr ?
punkman: yeah investment visa program
asciilifeform: ah, ro has similar. asciilifeform even got a formal quote when was there.
punkman: can even get some stocks instead of real estate, but I wouldn't recommend
asciilifeform: problem was, they only take dollar wire.
mats: real rates on tbonds briefly sank below -1% again as us economic recovery stutters
asciilifeform: mats: did 'brrr' printer run outta paper, or what happened there
kakobrekla: istanbul is a shithole, asian part sort-of survivable, but still shithole
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i'd like to buy a ticket to the mythical non-shithole
kakobrekla: asciilifeform you too to much armchair complaining, like... if you are serious and actually put effort into eg greece thing, you are likely to get peoples help
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: if exch rate grows a 0 or 2, would in fact put moar-effort etc.
kakobrekla: btw, re crying about trustless finance above, my comment is "baahahah, sounds like you fellas are looking for ethereum"
kakobrekla: aint nothing trustless in this world
verisimilitude: How's the split chain after the ``hack'', kakobrekla?
asciilifeform: as it is, mostly useless thrd, because problem as-posed not imho solvable; prompted by this howler.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:04:49 mats: volatility doesnt hurt anyone but speculators and margin traders
kakobrekla: one can NEVER be "independend man"
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i don't disagree. hence this comment.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:48:17 asciilifeform: sometimes the very statement of the problem preselects for fraud.
kakobrekla: verisimilitude ?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i dun think kakobrekla is 'pushing' ethertardism, but pointing out that it is a natural fuffle for folx who demand impossibilities to be offered eventually.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:47:56 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: asciilifeform ftr believes that the 'power of wot' has limits. and i like to formulate it as 'alchemist problem' : a 100% secure wot will help you to choose e.g. a plumber who does honest work. but it will NOT, no mater how constructed, help you to choose an ~alchemist~ who does honest work to make elixir of immortality and philosopher's stone for you.
asciilifeform: mats: ty, will read
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 17:21:02 kakobrekla: btw, re crying about trustless finance above, my comment is "baahahah, sounds like you fellas are looking for ethereum"
kakobrekla: asciilifeform, you always try hard to avoid making money, yet you say you need the "number go up" to unchain yourself... im not here to convice anyone of anything, but,.... two things
kakobrekla: one is, do you want to be right or do you want to make money? second, there is a path dependency to unchaining oneself. its easier if you make the money first. (also insert the philosopher king story)
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: it'd have to go up rather unrealistically (and at the same time not like this , lol) so largely academic.
dulapbot: (alethepedia) 2020-10-11 asciilifeform: thimbronion: the altcoinists -- sure . but i was speaking of the fact that the exch rate prolly aint growing another 0 -- or rather, not w/out the dollar price of archaetypical sandwich also growing a zero.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: the fact is, i aint interested in pyramids, i am not the kind of person who tends to win in them (aside from by not playing)
kakobrekla: make the money free and then make nsa make fgs as non profit
kakobrekla: not the other way around
asciilifeform: actual commerce -- interested in. hence invested (and massively lost) in the uruguay effort.
asciilifeform cannot afford another uruguay
kakobrekla: point is, path dependency
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i don't practice some oddball religion where one eschews profit. but i also don't do pyramids or play similar games which privilege extroverts.
kakobrekla now waits for the "kako is scumbag he all about the money fella"
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i aint mp, do not 'shoot messenger'
mats: i advise trying venues like cme, which can help you hedge your position
asciilifeform: mats: after taking 40% of stash via irs, lol
mats: or even make money from time to time when contango
asciilifeform: perhaps to the amusement of erryone tunes in, asciilifeform will admit that his biggest, longest-time, and most eager trader was... mp
asciilifeform: he couldn't get enuff of buying usd. and always paid on time..
punkman: asciilifeform: cannot afford another uruguay << that was pizzaro?
kakobrekla: lemme know when you want to actually move out of usganistan, i cant promise you shit aprat from that i will try to help you out. 250k for greece shouldnt be an impossible number.
punkman: asciilifeform: is your current job remote?
asciilifeform: punkman: 100% of my clients remote.
mats: 40%? you make enough to hit that on your investment portfolio?
mats: trump tax cut built a separate ladder for cgt you know
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: thing is, i'm only interested in escape if also comes with escape from working.
mats: trick to managing that is tax loss harvesting and borrowing against the assets, interest expense can be deductible
mats: investment interest expense
asciilifeform: mats: i know, in rough terms, how 'trumps' do it.
asciilifeform: mats: it dun scale down to shoestring.
kakobrekla: asciilifeform, one of the things i learned past few years dealing with n+1 jurisdictions is: stepping stones
punkman: if asciilifeform (or anyone else) wants to come for long-ish vacation, I can set up living arrangements, hardware, meatware, bandwidth.
kakobrekla: (the other one would be nerves of steel)
mats: it definitely scales to shoestring, you pay nothing on long term cg up to 20k (if married), then 12% 10-40k
mats: er 12% 20-80k
asciilifeform: mats: 1 btc 'out of nowhere' is already >20k cg, neh
mats: then borrow against it and cut up the sale across two years
asciilifeform: mats: and if the buildings 'under water' ?
kakobrekla: its also possible alf is just not that type of a person to step out of the comfort zone and actually pull the trigger and do it.
mats: then your loan gets called when goes below 50% ltv or w/e
kakobrekla: its a bitch for most people.
asciilifeform: ( and how does one borrow against btc that's still in an addr you control?? )
mats: have a stash in case you get margined or autoliquidated
kakobrekla: basically caught in a local minimum, (or local max if you prefer)
mats: well, doh, gotta hand over collateral to lender
kakobrekla: mats that requires trust or ETH
kakobrekla: bahaha
asciilifeform: mats: what i have is a realistic picture of own abilities. so far erry single bet i've made with btc -- lost.
mats: youre already making a long bet on btc
asciilifeform: one day will lose one more, and that'll be last.
mats: this is more of the same
asciilifeform: mats: i don't see 'hodling' as a bet, i've so little that if sold would make 0 diff. in my life.
asciilifeform: ( yes eveb single-digit ~$mil would make 0 diff, one cannot live off the interest of it )
asciilifeform: i see btc as a mechanical toy 1st, and as a kind of lottery ticket a distant 2nd.
kakobrekla: step by fucking step
kakobrekla: you can just jump 10 casts in one go
kakobrekla: cant*
kakobrekla: speaking from experiene
kakobrekla: (that was the end of the sentence in case it wasnt obvious)
kakobrekla: anyway imma go, ciao
asciilifeform: laters kakobrekla
asciilifeform: revisiting this briefly -- in btc space, for erry 'jumped successfully' i see 'over 9000' wretches holding mutilated stumps of cock.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:09:18 davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043424 <<< at some point if you want to fuck you're gonna have to take your dick out
asciilifeform: it aint even the case that i don't like betting. simply, don't like betting on what i perceive as games played with stacked deck. on items where asciilifeform believes has the ability to stack deck in ~own~ favour, via whatever knowledge -- will happily bet.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 17:32:50 mats: or even make money from time to time when contango
asciilifeform must bbl
davout: asciilifeform if you never get out of your comfort zone, you'll stay in your comfort zone, read some self improvement books or whateber
davout: and i feel this is a nth rehash of the same, iirc you had this same discussion with mp quite a few times
mats: davout: can buy spot btc ATM for ... 34.2k usd, sell mbtz2021 (dec2021) future at 35.2k, capture 'risk free' prem when converges at expiry
davout: right
davout: reason it isn't arbitraged yet seems to be the difficulty of getting usd into usdt then :D
mats: the premium is a lot smaller now, for whatever thats worth
asciilifeform: davout: i got 'out of comfort zone', in-person smuggled machines into uy; and prior to that, haggled in ro w/ mp's nut of a lawyer. all it got me was -10btc and 2 moar things that'll be brought up at my usg hanging one day.
davout: some people have no problem parachute jumping, but feel anxiety when they need to call strangers on the phone
asciilifeform: 'not sufficiently out of comfort zone, asciilifeform ! go to afghan, walk on mine field!'
asciilifeform: davout: i feel 0 anxiety , believe or not. somehow had that circuit burn out when i was small.
davout: i believe
asciilifeform: simply realistic picture of own abilities. i'm the sort of person at whose expense others win, whenever such situation is possible, it occurs.
davout: somehow i can't help feeling that sometimes you're making some things sound impossible because you expect perfection and zero risk
asciilifeform: nothing's impossible for folx who can afford to lose 9000 times.
asciilifeform: (and/or have very flexible def of 'win' )
davout: that's not true
asciilifeform: davout: lemme ask straight, do you still work for dough ?
asciilifeform: ( cuz if yes -- not yet 'won' )
davout: some people have problems speaking to strangers, what do they have to lose though?
davout: nah, i'm rich enough
asciilifeform must bbl
verisimilitude: Why call it anxiety; is it not simple apathy?
davout: what is apathy if not fear of doing?
davout: asciilifeform doesn't strike me as lazy
verisimilitude: I'm just viewing this through my lens.
verisimilitude: Apathy isn't sloth.
davout: maybe my english is betraying me
asciilifeform: davout: d00d works for those 'respectable institutions', is part of their periodic 'need to crash btc so we can buy in moar and so it doesn't look like a safe bet to plebes' routine
asciilifeform: ( see also e.g. )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-10 14:54:20 asciilifeform: i suppose there's a little entertainment in 'i sold all of my papercoin!' and 4mo later 'lemme tell you what to think about btc'
asciilifeform: taleb & co know full well that bitcoin doesn't 'require maintenance', and don't actually believe any of the howlers they regularly emit. but willing to lie for money, is how 'being rich' worx in the modern world.
punkman: davout: silly paper, been watching taleb derp about it on twitter
punkman: apparently the saifedean guy got taleb to write foreword for his bitcoin book
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere saifedean
dulapbot: saifedean last seen in #trilema on 2017-04-02 04:26:33: in any case, these only inform the last couple of chapters of the book. the rest is mostly economic history and austrian economics on sound money and its perks & fiat money and its disasters
asciilifeform: iirc d00d had a crankcase full of rather talebesque diet, etc. crackpotteries
punkman: ah yeah some thing about carnivore-diet
asciilifeform: ( see also re subj )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-04-02 asciilifeform: lottery winners have not merely 0 to teach, but 'learning' from them tends to make folx dumber.
asciilifeform: ( and also etc )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-02-12 20:16:13 asciilifeform: there are few things on satan's green earth more noxious than a lottery winner cum judas goat 'teaching success'.
mats: lol saifedean has quite the public profile now, MSTR's saylor is a self identified acolyte
asciilifeform: mats: what is/was mstr?
mats: microstrategy llc, has the biggest btc stash among public corps https://bitcointreasuries.net
verisimilitude: It's an anagram of TMSR.
mats: traded in their cash for btc, memefied the shares overnight
asciilifeform: ( apparently was in log, i simply forgot )
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-10-27 13:51:27 thimbronion: asciilifeform: trinque may have been referring to Microstrategy's 450mm btc buy. This is a publicly traded company, but I don't know if it meets the requirements to be 'official.'
mats: its an interesting leveraged financial play if you have money stuck in equities markets
mats: i.e. tax advantaged acct
asciilifeform if somehow finds himself anywhere near the position where method from mats applies -- will not forget to try
mats: FBO others, gbtc is trading at a ~16% discount, might be worth scooping into a roth ira
asciilifeform: mats: lol, the usg-sponsored tontine thing ?
mats: grayscale btc trust
mats: in more fiat https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-07-02/robinhood-ipo-filing-is-a-lesson-in-meme-finance 'Robinhood extracted 9.5% of the value of its customers’ options portfolio for itself in the first quarter, $197.9 million of revenue on $2 billion of assets.'
mats: afk
shinohai: asciilifeform: i know ive asked you 500 tomes, but im mobile so imma ask again, can haz link to ur base58 in Ada?
shinohai: s/tomes/times/
asciilifeform: shinohai: wait, i had one??
asciilifeform: was almost certainly someone else
shinohai: u had a dir/ where u had draft of bitcoin in Ada, almost certain I saw it there.
asciilifeform: (where no base58 or anyffin else pertaining to addrs, actually)
shinohai: hmm maybe i have that in my Ada stuff anywho will look when back @ desk
asciilifeform: shinohai: in logs found in fact shinohai's cl base58 , but was all..
shinohai: yeah we briefly had thread on ugliness. I tried verisimilitude version in lisp too
asciilifeform: seems to be all there is, at least in log.
shinohai still labors under delusion lisp is great for wallet functions
asciilifeform: 'it's great if you greaten it' or how did naggum put it.
shinohai: troo
shinohai: asciilifeform: didja see my latest in chinesium Assembled in usa" hww i acquired ?
asciilifeform: dun think so?
asciilifeform: hrm rip feedbot
asciilifeform: shinohai: plox to manually brag in #a when you post new piece
asciilifeform: ^ an' other folx ditto
asciilifeform: shinohai: post teardown of the iron?
asciilifeform vaguely recalls reading the vendor's materials and looking for whether this one, unlike the 8999 before it, shielded the rng
asciilifeform: normally i get bored before answering the 'did they whiten' q, gigatonnes of src and answer always same in the end.
shinohai: asciilifeform: will do, they have schematics on shithub too
asciilifeform: shinohai: i saw. nothing there re shield tho.
asciilifeform: the 'screen door on submarine' aspect of these 'sexy' machines also aint lost on asciilifeform . hardware rng, this, that, simply to use w/ prb !!
asciilifeform: (or even shitcoins, often enuff)
shinohai: im trying more reflash before i take apart tho, i got a firmware build i wanna try
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
shinohai: this one, so far, is shitcoin free, but outfit apparently run by former shitcoin scammers and they "just wanna code next release in rust!1111"
asciilifeform: the software that benefits from trng simply aint there yet.
asciilifeform: shinohai: i've yet to spot ONE 'bitcoinism'-related venture that doesn't smell of scam.
verisimilitude: No, asciilifeform, we discussed base 58 without BIGNUMs is all.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i could've sworn it was verisimilitude who had an ada base58, hm
verisimilitude: I'll write one eventually; I've something minor for release today.
verisimilitude: I've decided I should release smaller programs more, similar to this one, lest I hardly release anything at all.
asciilifeform working for coupla days nao on a draft of the p2p algo. but nowhere near done yet, it is getting tiny scraps of time left over from gruntwork
asciilifeform: human-text draft, to be concrete.
asciilifeform: maybe some time this month will finish..
verisimilitude: I've learned to not be disappointed with slow progress, because fast progress wouldn't make me happy anyway.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the frustrating thing for asciilifeform aint the 'slow' but the 'why'. 1week worth of work takes 3mo.
asciilifeform: and that's if lucky.
asciilifeform: signpost described correctly; but is 1 thing to describe the physics of flight to venus, and quite another thing to actually fly to it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-19 12:08:31 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040037 << highest priority project should be ownership of one's time.
asciilifeform: wb bonechewer
bonechewer: tnx asciilifeform!
asciilifeform: bonechewer: and welcome to dulapnet.
bonechewer: re: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043841 , this item seems at least well thought out, not that I would trust a hidden purported-TRNG
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 20:46:22 shinohai: asciilifeform: didja see my latest in chinesium Assembled in usa" hww i acquired ?
asciilifeform: bonechewer: at least ~this~ vendor was kind enuff to make the case translucent so i can see immediately 'no shield' and close the page...
asciilifeform: ( no segregation of digital & analogue boards, evidently, either.. )
bonechewer: if using one's own passphrase, why is lack of shield critical?
asciilifeform: bonechewer: didntcha say 'trng' ?
asciilifeform: a box that picks up 'voice of america' is not a trng. and to refer to it as one is fraudulent.
bonechewer: their TRNG is not auditable, so I wouldn't trust it, but the ability to sign transactions air-gapped seems convenient
asciilifeform: right, all these things are very convenient, i suppose
asciilifeform: and the redditus likes convenience.
asciilifeform: begs the q of why to buy exotic irons, run the mswin on yer mother's comp, even more convenient/lazy
bonechewer: would it not be possible to use one's own secrets and ignore the TRNG?
asciilifeform: bonechewer: why wouldja buy the box then??
asciilifeform: if yer still stuck throwing dice.
asciilifeform: (..is it good as a hammer? keeps drinks cold??)
asciilifeform observes that the linked item incurably demands prb -- like erry other similar shitware turned up thus far
asciilifeform: there's so many of these nao that i've lost count.
asciilifeform: 'buy seekoority box, comes with over-9000 seekoritiness'
bonechewer: convenience vs. security is a continuum, for my use case of paying folks in BTC a device like this is worth the time savings compared to tediously creating transactions from a paper wallet
bonechewer: and by virtue of being airgapped, a much different point on the continuum than leaving coins in a hot wallet on windows
bonechewer would be interested in knowing whether asciilifeform finds BIP174 objectionable, and if so why
asciilifeform: bonechewer: yes, and for the same reason i object to e.g. ssl. i.e. it's gratuitously complex, and deliberately so, for obscurantist reasons, because designed by thoroughly untrustworthy (proven so repeatedly) people whom i would not trust with a piece of dried out shit, much less coin.
asciilifeform: and it aint in trb; and i won't use a hypothetical patch where added to same.
asciilifeform: because.. see above.
asciilifeform spent years ~removing~ their garbage from trb. aint about to ~add~ any.
bonechewer shares asciilifeform's opinion of SSL, but feels compelled to motivate his defense of "convenience"
bonechewer: "Man is born free and everywhere he is in chains. (tm)(r)"
bonechewer is unhappy that the regime increasingly punishes dissent by cutting off the dissident from the banking system
asciilifeform: i dun see how 'old laptop' aint evenmoar convenient.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: they can get trb whenever they want.
bonechewer would like it to become more widespread for sympathizers to use bitcoin to fund dissidents, nonwithstanding the regime's objections and invisibly to its KYC/AML.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: mandatory thread re subj. the ameri-'dissidents' are intractable morons, to a man.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-12-22 weevlos: trinque: we are a media publication. our power and capital comes from the number of visitors we have to the site. we aim to transform through culture. if normal people cannot visit our site we are not accomplishing our goal
asciilifeform: ^ thread where no less than weev refused to host at pizarro. because ohnoez, mah dns, etc
bonechewer: However, the average dissident sympathizer (I have in mind my doctor, who is very good at what he does, but is not the sort to grok the intricacies of operating systems and the command line) is unlikely to spend many hours setting up trb and learning about its failure modes; the investment of time is disproportionate to the perceived value of shooting a double sawbuck to encourage his favorite
bonechewer: thoughtcriminal.
bonechewer: So for wide adoption of BTC payments by those without the time to become specialists, it would be desirable to have a device that makes it easier for people to create and send bitcoin transactions without sacrificing the high level of security needed in the face of a nation-state adversary. Whether this "coldcartwallet" qualifies as such, of course I don't know.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: are you aware of proverb 'things must be made as simple as possible, but not simpler' ?
bonechewer: "Seek simplicity and distrust it".
bonechewer: (also relevant)
bonechewer: "intractable morons, to a man". You forgot the grifters.
asciilifeform: most of'em also (doesn't take so much intelligence to harvest the 'weevs')
asciilifeform: bonechewer: re: btctronics, are you aware of concept of 'lemon market' ?
asciilifeform: is why, for instance, there are 'over 9000' whitening pseudo-trngs on the market today, but the only nonwhitening, shielded trng had print run of 200 , half of which was sold at the bankruptcy hammer
bonechewer: akin to "worse is better"?
asciilifeform: exactly
asciilifeform: and there is ~0 incentive for honest people, and plenty for the opposite.
bonechewer: over the long run, it is self-correcting: buyers of lemons will lose their coin
asciilifeform: to each other.
asciilifeform: it goes on 4evah.
asciilifeform: 'coin goes to smart folx' is an ancient fallacy.
bonechewer would not expect any trng to be a commercial success
asciilifeform: bonechewer: on the contrary! the various 'iron wallets' scammers do brisk biz. esp. the ones pushed helpfully by usg.reddit et al.
bonechewer: Excuse the cliche, but it is no less true: almost no one buys products. People buy solutions to their problems.
asciilifeform: often they buy, per tlp, 'feeling like a trader'(tm).
bonechewer: A trng on its own does not solve anyone's problem.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: neither does hammer on its own.
asciilifeform: modern man usually is not buying hammer, or rng, per se, but rather a fantasy which comes in the box with the hammer.
bonechewer: An honest trng could, though, be part of a solution to the problem "$REGIME keeps reading my text messages"
asciilifeform: it would if it could be produced economically.
asciilifeform: observe that even though 100% of schematic public, no one even produces ripoff from FG.
asciilifeform: because does not pattern-match the kind of 'sexy' that scammers like to peddle.
bonechewer: I fail to see how. Many people, like my doctor, are not fools, but are also not technical. They want a turnkey solution.
asciilifeform: rright and so straight into the arms of the scammers, who will ~always~ far more convincingly offer a simulacrum of 'secure and simple' than anyone offering actual security.
bonechewer: You are of course right in 99% of the cases, as witness the wide adoption of "Signal"
bonechewer: Perhaps "Signal" messages are even encrypted competently-- who knows? All that means is, if Xi Jinping wants to read them, he will have to have someone root your phone over its baseband processor and grab them from your screenbuffer
bonechewer: One mid-level PLA hacker will be slightly later for dinner than if he had decrypted them in transit
bonechewer would like to exchange one-time-pads with his frens, store them in a phonelike device with no off-device interfaces save the read-only MicroSD slot with the OTP,
bonechewer: compose messages on that device, display a QR code with the ciphertext, snap a picture of it with his phone, and sent it off to his correspondent
bonechewer: This however leaves unaddressed the susceptibility of such a solution to traffic analysis
bonechewer: (for log-completeness: correspondent receives the ciphertext on his phone, captures the screen shot with the camera on his secure device, where it is decrypted with his own OTP and displayed)
bonechewer: If this is too inconvenient for drug smugglers, let them buy the FBI's next "encrochat" instead. They are not the sort of thinking people who would appreciate such an item, as asciilifeform points out above
bonechewer: But those who use encrochats will have their traffic read; those who use OTP correctly-- won't
mats: for the technically challenged, sometimes i suggest coinb.in
mats: with the added step of using a non-coinbin tool to verify the rawtx before offline signing
asciilifeform: bonechewer: all of these problems -- solved. by asciilifeform . and documented in 7+yrs of logs. i even own hardware prototypes for most of'em, for all the good it does anyone.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: the key bit is to understand that something may be ~physically~ possible, but not ~economically~ possible.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform can build $box, or bonechewer can build $box, but in many cases no one can turn the manufacture of $item into a 'quit day job', much less to make it 'bestseller' and possible in long term.
bonechewer was not expecting to quit day job
mats: and how does one solve the longstanding problem of key reuse, a failure mode that has quietly left a trail of bodies
bonechewer: some folks build boats in their spare time. bonechewer would build said OTPtron, except that currently has insufficient spare time to build either boat or OTPtron
verisimilitude: Even before I realized SSL for what it is, I never used it on my website purely because of how much of a bother it is.
bonechewer: mats: thanks for pointer to coinb.in, have to admit, don't yet understand workflow for using with purely offline wallet -- but spent only a few seconds browsing; will revisit later
verisimilitude: It's no convenience in any shape.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: ever seen operetta 'west side story' ? in it there is line, 'I'll have my own washing machine.' and reply 'What will you have, though, to keep clean?'
asciilifeform: most folx don't have any compelling use for otp.
bonechewer: Nor for boat
asciilifeform has in fact used, in the field, otp, with actual compelling reason. ~paper~ otp. but was atypical scenario.
bonechewer 's doctor insists on using "Signal" to discuss business (and we aren't even doing anything illegal!) but would botch and/or be too impatient for paper OTP
mats: bonechewer: step1 occurs online, pass rawtx to airgap box, verify rawtx, sign, pass signedtx to live box and hand off to some www facing relay for broadcast
verisimilitude: The easy solution is not having a doctor.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: doctor almost certainly understands 'most folx prefer sweet idiocies' in the form of e.g. 'would rather take spam pills than eat less' etc
asciilifeform: similar pattern here.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: per socrates, the easiest 'solution' is to not have been born, lol
verisimilitude: That's not an option, however.
bonechewer: correct, but thumb-fingeredness with computers is an issue even for otherwise competent people.
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