#asciilifeform | 2020-02-04

asciilifeform: lobbes: 130 $ sounds expensive for something so small, even w/ 1G/s bw, imho

snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-31 03:59:51 lobbes: asciilifeform: I was only renting a server, roughly $130 orcbux per month

asciilifeform: lobbes: was it at least in china, or elsewhere outside reich ?

lobbes: asciilifeform: yeah, it was malaysia

asciilifeform: aa, then makes sense

lobbes: (this was for MP's commissioned bot; he didn't want it hosted in reich which I can understand)

lobbes: my hoster for ~everything else is in USA, yet I actually have had a pretty good experience with them thus far.

asciilifeform: lobbes: i won't ever wank over 'dun wanna live in asciilifeform's cage!111', right on the box is printed 'in heart of reich', who dares to risk and understands what he's buying -- subscribe, would rather folx knew right off the bat than to barf later.

lobbes: asciilifeform: I will say if my current US hoster kicks the bucket I'll give the alf cage a try for my personal uses

asciilifeform: lobbes: lemme know if you'd like a trial rk ( i have a trip to the cage scheduled for end of week, for unrelated work )

asciilifeform believer in 'try before you buy'

lobbes: asciilifeform: I appreciate that offer! Though at the moment even if I liked it, well I'm too poor to afford another hoster right now lol. I like the principle of try-before-buy though

asciilifeform: lobbes: for ref: per current price sheet, 128G rk goes for ~19.28 ($) / mo.

asciilifeform not currently aware of anyone on planet letting out 100% blobless boxen for less

lobbes: asciilifeform: damn, that is a good price. Do you take orcbux however? I always hate parting with the little btc I have

asciilifeform: lobbes: coin only

lobbes: asciilifeform: fair enough. Well, I'm definitely going to keep that in mind in any case. That is very nice price especially considering that I trust the operator

asciilifeform also quite reluctant to part w/ coinz under any pretext whatsoever -- so understands

lobbes bbl, food n' such

asciilifeform: lobbes: i let all the coin live, and buy cage w/ surplus from fiatola works ( recall, is 1 of the 'war crimes' for which asciilifeform was anathemized )

asciilifeform: this way, 0 exposure to 'exchange risk' & the many other well-known minefields of fiatola-intake.

asciilifeform: the folx who think 'harr, he's so stupid' are welcome to build own isp. ( for some reason -- not built yet? nfi wai not, if 'so easy' )

asciilifeform has 0 sympathy for folx who whine and won't lift a finger. 'airlines suck!11' -- fucking buy a rusty tub and fly it yerself. or ride train.

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2020/02/probable-impeachment-looming-in-increasingly-unlikely-event-of-biden-presidency/ << Qntra -- Probable Impeachment Looming In Increasingly Unlikely Event Of Biden Presidency

shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-12-26#1004412 <<< Finally did this just now myself, yup I have very few to do anymore. http://btc.info.gf/paste/ad7f2d@raw

snsabot: Logged on 2019-12-26 16:26:07 asciilifeform: finally updated ratings.

asciilifeform: lol harsh

asciilifeform normally reserves -rate for the dishonest, rather than merely maniacal (who imho are harmless when you stop giving'em nice things to break)

shinohai: Normally so would I, but special case.

shinohai: I simply unrated all the other folks that are too busy knob-slobbing to notice anything else, BingoBoingo being exception.

shinohai: Will remain even when Qntra career ends, which I expect to occur any day now.

asciilifeform: shinohai: iirc there was an ancient mp piece, where he described how he once found himself, as a boy, on a chicken farm, and broke the necks of the chickens so that the other boys could not play with'em

asciilifeform: i suspect this is the leitmotif re qntra etc

shinohai: As they say here in South, "Cuts off nose to spite face"

asciilifeform: shinohai: such folx are born at certain rate, and unfortunately even in well-functioning civilizations dun always end up drowned as toddlers or confined in psych ward. and will have what to eat, for so long as other folx put hands in their mouths to bite.

asciilifeform: the obv. countermeasure -- don't put hand.

asciilifeform: in erry zoo, there's regularly some schmuck who puts hand in bear cage, 'so cute, pet'. bear -- not pet. and, likewise, 'napoleons' who go on re 'majesty!111' aint 'biz partner' ;

asciilifeform: even if initially (is how diseases progress) start out 'high-functioning napoleon' where actually rewards collaborators, a la mussolini's 'for us -- everything, for the rest -- the law'(tm)(r)

asciilifeform: see also aesop's summary.

shinohai: I've never had the opportunity to observe such a phenomenon first hand.

asciilifeform: shinohai: read some time about how the orig napoleon behaved when the remnant of 'grande armée' was in retreat.

asciilifeform: ( spoiler : a more protracted version of 'das war ein befehl!!'(tm)(r) )

asciilifeform: the 1945 napoleon, incidentally, before eating his walther gave order to dynamite errything of value in his reich. (which his knob-lickers had, to their credit, the good sense to piss on)

thimbronion: I am reminded of the chicken story frequently, for whatever reason.

thimbronion: Never personally had cause to break any chicken necsk though.

asciilifeform: thimbronion: there's a diff b/w farmer, who grows chicken and breaks it when he wants soup, and caligula, who breaks errything in reach 'because can'

asciilifeform: thimbronion: unrelatedly -- i caught up reading yer www, found interesting. linked nao from mine.

thimbronion: I am quite honored, asciilifeform. The link is much appreciated.

asciilifeform: thimbronion: congrats, incidentally, on finding yer way outta the 'american philosophies' glue trap.

asciilifeform: ( and esp. if you manage to avoid moving to new glue trap..! )

thimbronion: That is the challenge. I hope to avoid another glue trap by doing *something*.

asciilifeform: thimbronion: for so long as you ~do~ (e.g. -- learn chinese, write softs, build dirigible, etc) rather than 'illusion of doing' in flagellant cult -- will win.

shinohai: I thought thimbronion was one of diana_coman's slaves?

asciilifeform: ( self-flagellation cults incidentally ~very~ popular historically. because addictively scratch the 'doing' itch w/out requiring actual-doing.. )

asciilifeform: shinohai: iirc was 'candidate' but not enlisted yet (i'ma let him correct if i'm mistaken)

thimbronion: I am currently rated a page boy by diana_coman.

asciilifeform: afaik the only 'doer' currently there is jfw (and even he -- mostly publishing pre-enlistment works atm)

thimbronion: asciilifeform: didn't you say you were learning Chinese?

asciilifeform: thimbronion: i got as far as 'kindergarten' level, but atm on hiatus

asciilifeform: found that it was interfering w/ my jp ( atm at best enuff to pass primary school ) and paused

thimbronion: I see. Lmk if you ever need any errands done in China. I'm planning to travel there soon - possibly in the summer (barring this corona virus thing dragging on past then).

asciilifeform: thimbronion: do you have connections in semiconductor biz there ?

thimbronion: asciilifeform: No I do not.

asciilifeform: aite.

thimbronion: Not afraid to knock on doors, wrangle up local girls, etc.

asciilifeform: thimbronion: if you develop such connection -- do say. cuz asciilifeform would like a serious quote for 45nm fab...

thimbronion: ok.

thimbronion: re: japanese - I got through 2nd year in college, had gf, but, i dunno. Chinese seems more practical.

asciilifeform: thimbronion: may very well be.

thimbronion: Where I live is swarming with them. Very few Sushi places even run by Japanese.

asciilifeform: atm i dun suffer the illusion that i'll get to use either 'in field', so for most part learning for to read old lit.

thimbronion: ah! I see.

asciilifeform: jp is a ~dead civilization. cn, by all signs, alive, but i find unappetizing.

asciilifeform: 'human anthill'

thimbronion: They will not deny it.

thimbronion: They have the ability to somehow be rich and yet not gentrify the neighborhoods they take over.

asciilifeform: cuz sending the dough back home.

thimbronion: hm yes true

thimbronion: although sending a lot here buying realestate.

thimbronion: But yes here the money is all in cash or house form. Only ever enters bank in China.

asciilifeform: afaik usa is only still in biz at all on acct of cn folx buying into its pyramids.

asciilifeform: eventually will fold like erry other pyramid.

asciilifeform: when the paper 'wealth' turns to toilet paper, they will have what they managed to physically build -- railroads, mines, cardboard ghost towns, etc.; and won't have, what didn't build (native 'fits in head' cpu arch; native os; crystallography labs that don't simply pull coordinates outta rng to fill paper queue, and could go on) and no more/no less.

thimbronion: Well, you can't steal a fits in head cpu arch from anyone, so...

asciilifeform: atm i'm not aware of a ~native~ cn design for ~anything~ (from stapler and kalash, to jet) that's worth half a shit

asciilifeform: dun prove that it dun exist. but remains

asciilifeform: 'we can always steal what design we need' is, partly, how sovok croaked .

snsabot: (trilema) 2019-09-17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'face derealization' / 'they gave up, why' -- i was reading not long ago about keldysh (head of sovok academy of sciences, and overall respectable figure, in charge of ~100% of calculative works for space / atomic programs etc. ) BUT at same time is the fella who undertook 'let's ditch native comp archs and copy pdp'. seems like was a checkmate, rather than 'dolchstoss', saw no working alternative , 'we can't affor

asciilifeform: afaik e.g. cn army still ~100% armed w/ mildly-reworked late-sovok irons.

asciilifeform: given the state of the enemy, this is prolly good enuff for century+ of deterring 'democracy-spreader'.

thimbronion: I don't follow arms much but I thought they were in a good spot with their hypersonic carrier destroying missles or something like that.

asciilifeform: sovok design.

thimbronion: hah!

asciilifeform: (and currently in ru manufactured same. late-'80s.)

asciilifeform: elementarily, folx who 'cult of wealth', a la anthill, cannot create novel objects. can only steal from those who 'were engineers'(tm)(r) and worked on penny/day simply from 'found the equations interesting'.

asciilifeform: see e.g. the history of 'stealth airplane'.

asciilifeform: when the folx who 'find equation interesting' haven't their penny/day cuz abramovich needs 9001-st yacht (ru 1990s) , or occupied w/ optimizing hft coad for financial pyramids (usa) , 'bang! no moar' novel techs.

asciilifeform: cuz, again elementarily, there aint any martians to steal said tech from.

asciilifeform: the operative 'hatefact'(tm) is that the process of producing novel concepts cannot be put on 'industrial' footing. it does not submit to 'mpization'.

asciilifeform: ( which doesn't meant that it cannot be done inside e.g. special-purpose prison. under stalin worked a+++. but requires certain amt of freedom to 'work unplanned' and 'chase wild goose'. which is difficult to arrange in 'properly controlled' conveyor.)

asciilifeform: see e.g. solzhenitsin's 'first circle' .

asciilifeform will bbl.

thimbronion: Hadn't heard of "First Circle." I will probably check it out.

asciilifeform: thimbronion: here you go.

feedbot: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/forum-log-notes-19-january-2020/ << Fixpoint -- Forum log notes, 19 January 2020

shinohai: A "newly developed app" caused inconsistencies in results of the Iowa Caucuses ... what a surprise.

shinohai: "But we had a blockchain and everything!"

shinohai: ./ticker btc usd

btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: 9124.65

superkuh: It's over 9000!

shinohai: xD

thimbronion: asciilifeform: thx

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2020/02/pantsuits-fuck-their-iowa-caucus-results-delayed-indefinitely/ << Qntra -- Pantsuits Fuck Their Iowa Caucus, Results Delayed Indefinitely

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2020/02/rush-limbaugh-announces-advanced-lung-cancer-diagnosis/ << Qntra -- Rush Limbaugh Announces Advanced Lung Cancer Diagnosis

asciilifeform: zeder: who might you be ?

asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere zeder

snsabot: The user zeder has never been seen by this logger.

zeder: Just someone who came across the channel on loper-os.org.

asciilifeform: zeder: which article ? ( or are you a regular reader ? )

zeder: Otherwise, no one of consequence.

asciilifeform: zeder: that's my www. if you have questions, this is the place.

zeder: I read your www whenever possible. I don't recall how I found the log archives, probably random clicking.

zeder: I do have a question actually. I've tried reaching out to symbolics-dk for system order information but received radio silence. Do you know if they're still operational?

asciilifeform: zeder: a, ok. you can drop questions here , i typically check the log at least 1/day, if prefer this to comments on www. ( if want realtime conv, usually i'm awake during normal biz hrs newyork time )

asciilifeform: zeder: last i knew he was still in biz. but mostly everything is out of stock.

asciilifeform: he has an ebay shop also.

asciilifeform: https://www.ebay.com/usr/71271.1417

asciilifeform: dks's www and contact info. give him a call.

zeder: I will, thank you.

asciilifeform: as recently as last year i bought a number of things from him

asciilifeform: was very cooperative (until i asked for proprietary docs to go w/ the purchased irons...)

zeder: Please feel free to refuse answering this, but aprox how much was the MacIvory rig?

asciilifeform: example, 'macivory' machine, bought from dks in '18.

asciilifeform: zeder: was just under 5k $ as i recall.

asciilifeform: included postage.

asciilifeform: for a short time he was also selling spare cpus for these, iirc 450 ea., i bought several.

zeder: Great. It's within expected range.

asciilifeform: ( they're for electron microscopy, eventually )

asciilifeform: zeder: as i understand, dks no longer has a stockpile of these machines, but sometimes he buys one back from an experimenter , and then usually puts on ebay.

asciilifeform: tends to happen every year or so, in my experience.

zeder: experimenter? Do you mean a Lispm tourist?

asciilifeform: aha

asciilifeform: various people buy'em, then break their teeth, and want to sell again

asciilifeform: currently i'm not aware of anyone other than myself who bought specifically for reverse-engineering . no doubt these exist, but there's a pathological imho culture of secrecy around the subject.

asciilifeform: one possible reason for this, is that once a proper emulator is built, the ancient irons will become ~worthless. and some folks have tends of thousands worth sitting around.

asciilifeform: *tens

asciilifeform: ( the 'snap5' emulator floating around on warez, incidentally, is not 'proper', it is quite buggy and regularly crashes. and in fact is not a faithful emulation of the actual 'ivory' arch, but of a simplified variant smbx originally sold for dec alpha in late '90s.)

asciilifeform: re the 'culture', see e.g. this old thread. discussed in detail.

snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-10 asciilifeform: know what doesn't help ? people's habit of NOT POSTING JACK SHIT

zeder: I haven't heard of snap5. Will dig deeper.

asciilifeform: snap4. i dun have the link to 5 handy atm.

asciilifeform: these were (somewhat kludgy) amd64 ports of the original dec alpha emulator.

asciilifeform: ( which in turn was 'too little, too late' and put the company out of biz. )

asciilifeform: zeder: what's your interest in the smbx irons ?

zeder: If I ever write a book on the tech industry I'll title it "Too Little Too Late"

asciilifeform: lol

zeder: My interest is in exploring lost possibilities. I'm a long time Lisp programmer who started in XLISP-STAT and missed the era of synergistic hw/sw.

asciilifeform: zeder: i similarly. (as you probably knew, from reading www)

zeder: Yes. I detected a hint of that.

asciilifeform: my interest is, primarily, to make sure that the item is in fact preserved (the old irons will not run forever, not only electrolytic capacitors wear out) ; and secondarily to actually document the iron & softs stack.

asciilifeform: this requires cycle-accurate emulator. ( already folx found that symbolics used 1980s-style 'empty loops' for delays, ubiquitously , and this is why even their official emulator was dodgy )

zeder: I'm coming at it from more of the sw side, but I appreciate the importance of the hw preservation as well.

asciilifeform: originally i also started purely from sw side. then dug in and realized that it was intimately dependent on the features of the iron ( hardware-assisted gc, type checking, etc )

zeder: I need to aggregate the extant literature on the subject. The bits and pieces are scattered throughout various drives and notebooks.

asciilifeform: zeder: see also this.

asciilifeform: ^ largest, afaik, collection of publicly-known lit on the subj.

asciilifeform: includes, i think, all of the printed documentation that came with the machines.

zeder: I've definitely been there, but a refresh is in order.

asciilifeform: there's several new (last 4yrs) documents.

asciilifeform: i was able to get some cpu docs from an anonymous informant, but not prepped for publication just yet

asciilifeform: notably this included pinout, timing waveforms, and (a pre-prod, i think, revision of) the instruction set.

zeder: I'm going to pull this down and augment it with papers and histories that I've found over the years.

asciilifeform: what it did not include, was any info on the supporting peripherals present on the 'ivory' board. in particular, there's a 1200 gate cpld, which interfaces the thing to the old apple bus; and also some GALs

zeder: asciilifeform: I look forward to the release of those docs.

asciilifeform: theoretically it is possible to infer the function of these, as the 68k mac application that drove the card, comes with sources

zeder: That would be a nice bit of sleuthing.

asciilifeform: the ivory cpu itself has about 400,000 transistors, i.e. roughly same complexity as ye olde i486.

asciilifeform: in principle is even possible to reverse via high quality ~optical~ microscopy. still looking for a reputable shop that would expose, at reasonable cost, the die.

asciilifeform: ( i have only 4 units to work with, not counting the one mounted in the card )

asciilifeform: the samples in my possession were made with 2uM process.

asciilifeform: xray image of the ic package. there is a metallic lid, attached via unknown adhesive. would need to remove w/out thermally stressing the die. which means machining.

asciilifeform: i found an electron microscopy shop that works at very reasonable rate (self-service) ; but not yet a reliable decapper .

zeder: Reading through the links provided. Fascinating leads here.

asciilifeform: zeder: very, very little is known re the iron tho.

asciilifeform: in fact i was not even able to find high-res photos of 'macivory' card on www. afaik to this day mine are the only ones publicly posted , where the ic markings are readable.

zeder: crazy

asciilifeform: i can see how enthusiasts who bought 5$k card that show up on market every other year, might be loathe to handle the thing, pull chips, etc

asciilifeform: but that no one bothered over ~decades~ is imho outrageous.

shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-02-04#1005932 <<< this made me think to ask you asciilifeform , ya ever tried that "Mezzano" lisp OS floating about?

snsabot: Logged on 2020-02-04 20:13:33 asciilifeform: ( the 'snap5' emulator floating around on warez, incidentally, is not 'proper', it is quite buggy and regularly crashes. and in fact is not a faithful emulation of the actual 'ivory' arch, but of a simplified variant smbx originally sold for dec alpha in late '90s.)

asciilifeform: shinohai: last looked in 2018. couldn't get it to run on any irons i had.

snsabot: (trilema) 2018-04-25 asciilifeform: ( lives -- yes -- on shithub; https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/tree/master/drivers << all he's got in the way of iron )

shinohai: Oh heh, only intel drivers :/

asciilifeform: ( see also 2016 thread w/ phf, re where item not quite compat w/ conventional commonlisp )

snsabot: (trilema) 2016-09-17 phf: movitz and mezzano are common lisp compilers, they are just shitty ones. they are good enough to boot an os on x86, but they are missing bits (large chunks of standard) because nobody's written those

asciilifeform: possibly author continued since then ? i have nfi, not followed.

asciilifeform: ( thing lives on loathesome shithub, too )

shinohai: Yeah project still appears active, last coomit 3 hrs ago

asciilifeform: shinohai: try, run, if you've time. could make for interesting article.

shinohai: ChrysaLisp only thing I've tried from Shithub. Nice toy but wasn't fleshed out much, and couldn't run on bare iron yet last I saw.

asciilifeform: the ~total nonexistence of anything resembling standardized pc iron, makes this kind of thing not only difficult, but rather thankless work

asciilifeform: typically authors throw in towel and say 'only vmware'

asciilifeform: ( which fixes, ultimately, ~nothing, vmware is not only proprietary turdware, but regularly breaks sim-irons support )

asciilifeform: shinohai: there's a reason why i concluded that it is necessary to bake iron, if want sane os.

asciilifeform: classic case in point, 'movitz'

asciilifeform: ( afaik the 1st attempt at 'bare irons commonlisp' on pc )

asciilifeform: i.e. will ~possibly run if you can somehow dig up ~exactly~ same pile of junk the orig. author worked with. and not otherwise.

shinohai: Sad that someone like mp could prolly make sane iron happen if wanted.

asciilifeform: shinohai: it aint simply a matter of 'big enuff bag of dough' . or would've long happened.

shinohai: Of course not, but doesn't hurt. As far as I could tell at one point this was something he desired, neh?

asciilifeform: shinohai: very difficult to say conclusively what ( aside from cosplay of 18th c. royalty... ) fella ~actually~ wanted

shinohai: It's all there in the 5 bzillion lines of Trilema, we're just too dumb to see it!

asciilifeform: 1 non-obvious problem, shinohai , is that 'big bag o'dough' is not a neutral thing. it is poisonous, like radwaste. makes folx sitting on it, stupider, in well-documented ways.

asciilifeform: incl. (but by no means limited to) 'pleasures of flesh'. it aint clear to me that 'harem' is all that diff. from e.g. heroin, in its effects. how many os designers on heroin do you know ?

asciilifeform: or, for that matter, his (admitted!) cocaine. imho still shows typical effects, even tho supposedly quit.

shinohai: Well there was gabriel_laddell xD

asciilifeform: was, lol

asciilifeform: near as i can tell, buried.

shinohai: I have no clue how many girls mp has about. Having two about hasn't changed me much, I enjoy pleasures of the flesh, then move on to other irems.

shinohai: *items

asciilifeform: not erryone succumbs to dope, either, for that matter. (e.g. p. erdos, patron saint of gabriel_laddels errywhere)

asciilifeform: shinohai: problem, as i understand it, aint that the gurlz suck yer brain out from below. but that folx surrounded by sycophants, eventually lose all ability of self-criticism or to take advice.

shinohai: That indeed seems to be problem, fellow likes dishing it out but the gods forbid he receive it.

asciilifeform: shinohai: it aint curable. and unfailingly leads to bunker ( not necessarily fuhrerbunker '45 model ; can be h. hughes's air-conditioned bunker. but same result. )

asciilifeform: shinohai: the funniest paradox, is that it is ~impossible to make a conventional '+ev' biz case for sane irons. (given that '100% openly published specs' is intrinsically part of 'sane'.) and so to bake it, yer stuck to work with insane folx. or w/ whatever coins you can muster on own power.

asciilifeform: 'no one pays for sunlight'(tm)(r) .

asciilifeform: ( see also. )

shinohai: ^aha I remember reading that.

shinohai: Just for shits and giggles downloaded Mezzano, in qemu even running with `-m 2048` painfully slow, near unusable.

asciilifeform: shinohai: even very tight linux similarly 'barely usable' under qemu

asciilifeform: so not much surprise

asciilifeform: for thread-completeness -- the typical failure mode of folx who ~do~ have non-atrophied self-criticism organ, is that after long enuff time of facing apparently-unyielding wall, they tend to move to more tractable problems (e.g. 'preserve linux') and convince selves that they're doing something Truly Useful and 'Just As Good'

asciilifeform: the prospect of spending decades on work that's ~guaranteed to add up to ~0 in yer lifetime, and where there's slim chance that even archaeologists find it, is unappealing to most folx.

asciilifeform: yet that's exactly what's needed.

shinohai: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EP9KuMZXsAE77mq.jpg

shinohai: >Satoshi

asciilifeform: lol

shinohai: Hours after I made Qntra submission, Hoaxtoshi *does in fact spin new lie* and claims he can't tell court whether or not he has privkeys to Satoshi stash because "bonded courier" is attorney and it is now "privileged information".

asciilifeform: shinohai: what i dunget, is why to feed the troll

shinohai: Whaddya mean, "feed troll" as in publish items about it?

asciilifeform: fella gets ~bottomless pile of dough from usg, solely to make noise. whatcha gonna do, out-noise him ? why ?