Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-01-03 | 2021-01-05 → ↓
feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/2021/re-ivanovna-et-al-2020 << The Tar Pit -- Re: Ivanovna et al., 2020 (DOI: 10.7554/eLife.58906)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-03#1028160 << mno, not by 'one access for data and code.' but by fact that a) cpu (in abstract) can do 1 thing at a time b) attempts to magick away (a) by adding multiple cpu, face contention for shared resources (memory; i/o) .
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-03 22:16:22 verisimilitude: Say, asciilifeform, the von Neumann bottleneck is caused by the one access for data and code; it doesn't feel meaningfully different to write programs which don't use memory for anything beyond code, however.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-03#1028161 << register, in the typical sense, is simply an expensive memory.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-03 22:16:58 verisimilitude: That is, be there anything much special about that class of programs which, after initialization, have all mutable state live in registers and whatnot?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'll add what the schoolbook ~won't~ tell you : the shared-resource bottleneck is ~not~ the greatest catastrophe of the vn model of computation. rather, it is the shit-sandwich of broken abstractions based on the interrupt.
asciilifeform: interrupts make the very notion of a deterministic process on the machine, a virtual impossibility.
asciilifeform: 1st-law compliance is difficult (and in practice, impossible) on a vn box.
asciilifeform: even pc iron designers conceded this, and offloaded all kinds of processing from cpu to special-purpose micros (in nic, disk, kbd, etc)
verisimilitude: I recall reading an article by Djikstra about how, decades ago, the machine designers weren't implementing interrupts correctly.
verisimilitude: I never thought of interrupts as particular to the von Neumann model, but I suppose this is due to the dearth of other machine types more than anything.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: entirely particular to vn model. observe again, e.g. fg has no notion of interrupt, because has no notion of instruction flow.
asciilifeform: shinohai: bot awol ?
shinohai: ty asciilifeform
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: vonneumannism is not simply a set of broken mechanisms, but of broken ~thought patterns~. there are certain problems that can't even be reasoned about effectively for so long as operating with concepts where dichotomy b/w 'cpu' and 'memory'.
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-02-22 asciilifeform: back to thread, momentarily, before i nod off to sleep; certain problems (i dare say most of the 'big ones') in algorithms magically dissipate when you burn the retarded von neumann thing
asciilifeform: wb btcinfobot
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: $30922.83
asciilifeform: cheap!11111 again
verisimilitude: Provide an example of such a problem; none currently come to my mind.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: iirc r. feynman's example. he gave a conference table of 'computer scientists' a bundle of sticks, of various lengths, to sort by length. asked about the complexity class of the problem.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: do you know this story ?
verisimilitude: I don't believe so, but ``spaghetti sort'' comes to mind.
asciilifeform: aha, it.
asciilifeform: sorting is in o(n). unless, of course, yer trapped in a vn machine..
verisimilitude: I'd always thought of that as a consequence of analog vs. digital, not like this.
asciilifeform: ( i'll add to the story -- if yer ~not~ trapped in a vn machine, then sort not even o(n) -- if you can simply tell the sticks to 'walk forward if you see a taller stick in front of you; otherwise stand still' and they take ~at most~ N steps ! )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it aint.
asciilifeform: digital does not necessarily imply vn cripplement.
verisimilitude: Well, I suppose this has still educated me a tad; I appreciate it, asciilifeform.
verisimilitude: Some examples of other architectures I've seen is giving the memory minor computation abilities, such as clearing or pattern-embedding; that could be neat.
verisimilitude: I like the idea of being able to tell the memory to set the current memory incremented from the last memory, for N steps, and so having the APL iota in hardware.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: would be great, except that, barring miracles, 0 of these academic curios will be fabbed in anyffin like a modern process.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 14:59:36 asciilifeform: 'holy grail' ultimate pill here would obviously be 'desktop fab'. but afaik currently is not even in realm of 'science fiction', but rather lsd fantasy, sadly.
asciilifeform: for that matter, you can't even buy ordinary sram in anything like the price point, density, or speed (!!! yes, 'pay 40x more, get slower ram, cuz reasons') dram buyers have grown accustomed to
asciilifeform: since early 2000s or so.
asciilifeform: it's among the various calamities brought by 'economy of scale' distortion of costs.
asciilifeform: ( see also re subj )
snsabot: (trilema) 2019-06-12 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i actually went through coupla hundred datashits in late '17, for various srams. after rejecting various 'pseudo' (i.e. internally dram, with built-in refresher) , left with buncha items, typically <=64MB, where in small print, if you actually use it as random access (i.e. not in long burst) it runs at 1995 speeds (7-15ns typically access)
verisimilitude: I recently saw talk of embedding FPGA in SSDs, to enable computation to happen without moving the data off-drive.
verisimilitude: On the note of ``miracles'', I prefer to think that computers can amplify the intelligent, but it's less often discussed how they can also amplify the idiots, and there are more idiots.
asciilifeform: wb BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: My bouncer crashed
BingoBoingo: will sort it out. Box still up
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: prolly from this
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-29 12:17:39 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG isp folx ! 20m power outage in cage on acct of upstream fuse change 'oops'. RK users, plox to set clocks! all who report in, will be credited +1d of service.
BingoBoingo: Next week will be taking actual vacation to the east
asciilifeform was aboutta ask 'east what'..
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in entirely unrelated lolhardware.
shinohai: ^ I need the IW-J20 PRO so I can just rove about and never leave my desk.
asciilifeform: lol desktank
asciilifeform: shinohai: here's another vendor of these, if yer serious.
asciilifeform: there's apparently half dozen or so.
shinohai: lol ... no. I'm not *that* Amerifat yet, thank the Gods.
asciilifeform: shinohai: plox to quote or summarize ( asciilifeform dun follow mp linx these days )
asciilifeform: shinohai: it's filed in my firewall w/ other 'garbage pits just entertaining enuff to distract for coupla hrs if clicked'
shinohai: asciilifeform: alrighty, starts about here: https://archive.is/UspSX#selection-525.0-527.9
thimbronion: shinohai: I stopped reading at 'ntp'
shinohai: thimbronion: Those were the keks, that he actually thought "introducing ntp" a great idea or solution to any time-based problem.
asciilifeform: shinohai: was some random bozo doing this, rather than mp. disappointing link.
asciilifeform: all i can add, asciilifeform is happy that these are going to e.g. mp, and not to him.
asciilifeform: 'match made in heaven', fella who luvvs spamola enuff to BUY it, and spammers.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-04-23 19:35:34 asciilifeform: shinohai: i blame, lol, mp -- seems like he's been 'buying traffic' (why?! nfi, ask him, not me) and some of the spamola is spilling into my www's
asciilifeform: 'traffic!111'
verisimilitude: Giving it more thought, that memory calculation idea could be equivalent to embedding a more complex many-more state cellular automata into the memory.
verisimilitude: s/automata/automaton/
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there's a great many things one ~could~ do. incl. iron cell-automata. but, sadly, it's a 'you and what army' kind of thing.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-04 12:26:31 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: would be great, except that, barring miracles, 0 of these academic curios will be fabbed in anyffin like a modern process.
verisimilitude: I could see the idea of giving the end address a ``stop'' command, and the beginning address an increment command which propagates to the next memory, until reaching the ``stop'' command. A surprisingly powerful little machine could be built with even, say, eight different commands.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: familiar w/ 'firing squad problem' ?
verisimilitude: Vaguely, yes.
asciilifeform: there's a whole class of these arrangements.
asciilifeform: just about errything asciilifeform ever discussed on subj, is 1970s state of art.
verisimilitude: The idea of propagating to the next cell in either direction solves the issue of getting the commands there without just doing the calculation anyway.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: cellular structure solves all kinds of idiocies from conventional comp design, yes.
verisimilitude: I could see bubble sort and varieties thereof being able to be given directly to the memory, but not more complex sorts as easily, although it may not matter.
verisimilitude: I'll make certain to look at that.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there's a detailed version, in dead tree (presently not aware of a warez scan)
verisimilitude: I read this lately. So many idiots responded to it with garbage such as ``But C compiler error messages are better now!''; it's pathetic.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i stopped reading at :
asciilifeform: 'IntelliJ, Eclipse, ASP, Spring, Rails, Scala, AWS, Clojure, Heroku, V8, Go, Rust, React, Docker, Kubernetes, Wasm. All of these latter technologies are useful incremental improvements on top of the foundational technologies that came before.'
verisimilitude: He makes a decent overall point; it's not a long read.
asciilifeform: well, asciilifeform read.
asciilifeform: not 1 thing in there is new. for fuck's sake, i have an entire site, from '07, re subj.
verisimilitude: I agree.
asciilifeform: and what aint full of plagiarized naggum, is full of nonsense howlers. e.g., 'Today only megacorps like Google/Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft have the money and time horizons to create new technology'
verisimilitude: Yes, that was laughable.
verisimilitude: I underestimated how much of a waste of time reading it was, I suppose.
asciilifeform does not pretend to have any monopoly on 'software died'. but has 0 interest in reading a 'here's a point-by-point plagiarism of asciilifeform's www, but read it because unlike him, i went to harvard and got vc fundings' claptrap.
verisimilitude: Returning to the von Neumann topic, I'd be correct in figuring it's not considered meaningfully different because the improvement is only linear, right?
asciilifeform: wholly unrelatedly : re this irons thread : decided to try this inexpensive display. will report at some pt re whether edible.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-03 14:43:31 asciilifeform: unrelatedly: asks readers who (supposing anyone has) bought 3840x2160 ips displays in recent 5yrs, to write in. looking for sumthing larger than current flagship 'nec' 27in. no, not interested in tvisms/non-ips garbage/similar.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what different from what ?
verisimilitude: A von Neumann machine with multiple processors, such as a GPU, still only offers linear improvements in general, which is why it's still basically von Neumann is the reasoning, right?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: not even linear. because they contend for shared resources.
asciilifeform: and impose braindamaged concepts like interrupts and locks.
asciilifeform: (which in turn inevitably lead to irreproducible and subtle bugs in ~errything)
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: and, simply by definition, if you can point to a distinct cpu and to a memory, it's a vn machine. that's what the formalism consists of.
asciilifeform: the relative proportion (e.g. 1 cpu / 1 memory, 2 cpu / 2 memories ('harvard') ; or 9000 cpu / 1 memory (gpu) etc) dun matter.
asciilifeform: *1 cpu / 2 memories ('harvard')
verisimilitude: Alright.
asciilifeform: the most accessible example of non-vm comp is fpga fabric.
asciilifeform: *non-vn
verisimilitude: It's still fair to call many von Neumann machines networked something distinct however, don't we agree?
asciilifeform: is called 'many von neumann machines networked together' lol
verisimilitude: Well, shrink each down and that's something like the GA144, which is a dataflow machine.
verisimilitude: I'm well familiar with that piece, yes. Each F18A in a GA144 has a true pair of stacks.
asciilifeform: which is why a crowd of hollywood extras with index card of instructions could 'be called a dataflow machine' but you probably wouldn't want to compute on it.
verisimilitude: s/F18A/F18/
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i remember the greenarrays machine,yes
verisimilitude: That reminds me of a joke mocking startups.
verisimilitude: ``We switched from MongoDB to thousands of Chinese children forced to memorize numbers.''
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: erry programmer knows 'over 9000' such jokes. but when you point out the one where he himself is protagonist, usually stops laughing.
verisimilitude: Sure, but perhaps the best jokes are written for the one telling them anyway.
asciilifeform brb,teatime
verisimilitude: An issue with this memory idea is it doesn't much jive with typechecking in hardware, and some useful operations in memory wouldn't be sensible. A solution, however, is to have memory segmented by the type of data it stores. So, integer memory could have increment operations and whatnot, whereas cell memory could have, say, swap CAR and CDR, although that in particular doesn't seem much useful.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i rec to get familiar w/ basics of fpgaism. simply so can see what example looks like of 'fabric' where almost nothing about e.g. memory is apriori forced on the designer (you can pick what length/width of memory to use in a particular 'island')
asciilifeform: and indeed much of the accumulated knowledge re comp design from vonneumann world, is inapplicable in this scenario. in fact is large part of why you can't buy a 'kilogram of fpga' as general-purpose pc.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-04#1028204 << not often discussed because abundantly obv. to just about anyone w/ a net connection.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-04 12:37:30 verisimilitude: On the note of ``miracles'', I prefer to think that computers can amplify the intelligent, but it's less often discussed how they can also amplify the idiots, and there are more idiots.
asciilifeform: ( and there is exactly one possible pill . )
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 19:48:30 asciilifeform: imho a necessary baby step to creating an 'outside' is the legendary 'new net parasitizing on old' (insert length thread here!1)
snsabot: Logged on 2020-10-07 14:58:18 asciilifeform: PeterL: i won't presume to speak for trinque , but in asciilifeform's conception, the obv. Right Thing would be an item which rides atop ipv4 in the same sense that the latter once rode atop telco grid; and w/ cryptographic routing (i.e. yer address is a pubkey) and ciphration (i.e. messages readable strictly by addressee) . all else -- implementation detail.
asciilifeform: any and all attempts to apply any other kind of pill, simply in the end strengthen the idiots.
verisimilitude: I was thinking about crypto addresses earlier. An obvious issue is ``But what about when the crypto is broken?'', but it's important to recognize that the current system is also backed by the same principles, just hidden and already broken.
verisimilitude: So, the current system of ``Just addresses routed honestly.'' is actually a fiction.
verisimilitude: Which FPGA is good to buy, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: depends what yer doing
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the only 1 that's been adequately reversed is ice40. however it is quite small.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-10 22:43:59 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ice40 demo for instance
snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-20 19:59:57 asciilifeform: ( and in fact the only properly kosher, i.e. wholly reversed, fpga on the market , is afaik still 'ice40' , which is rather small . just barely holds a useful mipslike w/ 64bit regs. )
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-04 16:46:10 verisimilitude: So, the current system of ``Just addresses routed honestly.'' is actually a fiction.
snsabot: (trilema) 2019-08-30 asciilifeform: girlattorney: presently -- correct. washington is continuously trying to push a washingtonized pseudo-bgp 'replacement' but yet not much uptake.
snsabot: (trilema) 2019-10-16 asciilifeform: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-16#1945816 << in that shop, they dun ~sell~ blocks, but lease by the single ip. what was offered , is to connect with broker who sells. i inquired, min. purchase is /24 from their broker, at 6k usd. imho oughta comparison-shop before shelling out, price seemed astronomical ( am i rube ? always 6k ? )
verisimilitude: I'll look into ice40 then; there's no point to buying the more capable for my first FPGA.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: get the 'icestick' demo board, is self-contained (~20 $ u.s)
verisimilitude: That's very cheap; what's the interface, USB?
asciilifeform: it's this keychain-shaped board. quite minimal, but more than enuff for study.
verisimilitude: I appreciate the suggestion, asciilifeform.
verisimilitude: This wouldn't be enough for an FG, would it?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: moar than enuff
verisimilitude: Oh, well in that case perhaps I'll purchase two, and turn one into an FG.
asciilifeform: fg used a 72-cell xl9572.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you'll still need an analogue source of trngism.
verisimilitude: Alright; that makes sense.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the fpga in fg was used strictly 'as modem'. see also.
mats: i have an fg for sale if you want one
asciilifeform: ( meant to link the perma-mirror. )
asciilifeform: wb mats
verisimilitude: I was wondering about this, asciilifeform, but mine inexperience leaves me no room to argue much, but I'm glad to no longer be confused about it.
mats: also, searching your logger for 'fg' resulted in an error
verisimilitude: How much, out of curiousity, mats?
asciilifeform: mats: documented eggog (<3 chars). i've a patch, but not yet deployed.
mats: ah ok
verisimilitude: Try searching for ``fg ''.
mats: $80 usd
verisimilitude: Yes, my solution works.
asciilifeform: mats: lol, dpb must be feeling the heat , iirc he sells his for 500+
verisimilitude: I'm tempted, but don't hold onto it for me, mats.
verisimilitude: That is, if there be another buyer, don't wait on me.
asciilifeform at one time designed a successor to fg but before blowing the dough to have pilot batch made, thought 'wainot see whether any of the classic fg hoarders admit to having sold out of theirs'. but to no great surprise, heard no such thing.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 18:41:27 asciilifeform: Aerthean: whole point of using scintillator, is to remove, as much as physically possible, any external influence on the rng output, either manmade or natural. external meaning from anywhere outside the box.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
mats: i look for his ebay fg listing once in a while and i havent seen it in years
asciilifeform admits that it's been quite some time since looked
asciilifeform: possibly he in fact sold his collection. will let him comment if feels like.
dpb: i still have many fg for sale
asciilifeform: oh neato
mats: speak of the devil
asciilifeform: dpb: where do you sell'em ?
dpb: vintage, sealed in bags, numbered
dpb: my blog
verisimilitude: Which domain name is that, dpb?
verisimilitude: That's good to know.
asciilifeform: hm i don't see anyffin re fg sales there
asciilifeform: dpb: maybe make a page for it?
dpb: maybe i'll write up a new article for it
dpb: since there is apparently new interest
asciilifeform: dpb: erry so often, someone does ask
dpb: they were selling on ebay for 300 bux, a few years ago
verisimilitude: I don't believe there's going to be much interest, when one's available for much less.
dpb: i am in no rush to sell them
mats: theres definitely a lot of bad devices you only have to pay $40 to own, like onerng
asciilifeform: to this day, nobody outside the folx linked under 'tests' and jfw & co have publicly admitted to using fg for anyffin.
asciilifeform: mats: even more so, the homeopathic trng that comes w/ x86 cpu, costs 0
asciilifeform: (if you already own the cpu)
asciilifeform: it's a lemon market, the homeopaths will always control the chump-change segment, while the crypto-ag types will control the golden-toilet segment. while actual rng that actually non-whiteningly worx, 'doesn't exist, never existed, what kinda terrorist are you to ask'
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:14:15 asciilifeform: there are some euro firms who offer 20,000+ $ 'golden toilet' rng. i investigated, all of'em whiten.
verisimilitude: It's truly disconcerting how many organizations are more concerned by insurance upon failure, rather than ensurance of success.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: organizations divide strictly into the inconsequential and the coopted.
asciilifeform: phunphakt apropos of fg subj: there are currently 3 machines equipped with owner-colocated fg's in asciilifeform's rack.
asciilifeform: ( 4 if including mine )
asciilifeform: afaik asciilifeform's is still the only rack service on planet3 that will colocate fg inside leased boxen (i.e. ones that subscriber did not mail in w/ fg already installed.)
asciilifeform: in unrelated sad, ben_vulpes's www appears to have fallen down.
asciilifeform will have to mirror the vtronics intro somewhere.
asciilifeform: heathen cache of subj, in case anyone immediately needs.
whaack: !w probe 205.134.172.28
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.094s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=664448
whaack: Bumping restarts from 1nce every 24hours to 1nce every 8 hours
asciilifeform: whaack: outta curiosity, didja ever try ben's 'more-aggression' patch ?
whaack: pretty sure I have that , but I will confirm at another time i'm stepping out
asciilifeform: whaack: it was never in the flagship vtree
asciilifeform also bbl
feedbot: http://mvdstandard.net/2021/01/airstrip-one-further-curbs-remaining-freedoms-of-movement-after-brexiting/ << The Montevideo Standard -- Airstrip One Further Curbs Remaining Freedoms Of Movement After Brexiting
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-04#1028167 << familiarity with the hierarchy of interruptions is the basis of any serious OS programming. interruptions were the material from which the edifice of modern computing was constructed.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-04 11:50:41 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'll add what the schoolbook ~won't~ tell you : the shared-resource bottleneck is ~not~ the greatest catastrophe of the vn model of computation. rather, it is the shit-sandwich of broken abstractions based on the interrupt.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: since the time when we had this discussion I have come to better understand the historical background leading up to such issues.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-12 13:21:15 asciilifeform: see also oblig.: 'social osteoporosis' hypothesis.
gregorynyssa: apparently, during the 1960s and 1970s, there was a series of biologists who promoted Evolution while simultaneously strongly opposing the admixture of Evolution with the social sciences, incl. Stephen Jay Gould.
gregorynyssa: these people attained the upper hand in terms of reputation over others such as William Hamilton and Edward Wilson who promoted the Evolutionary school of social science.
gregorynyssa: I think the main source of the disagreement comes from the fact that while the Baby Boomers have already been considerably Secularized, most of them still cling onto notions of a quasi-religious nature, such as "tabula rasa" and the existence of souls or spirits.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-04#1028367 << "one by one their seats were emptied; one by one they went away; now the circle is departed; will it be compelte one day?"
snsabot: Logged on 2021-01-04 18:33:10 asciilifeform: in unrelated sad, ben_vulpes's www appears to have fallen down.
asciilifeform: wb gregorynyssa
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: re 'christianity w/ serial number filed off' -- quite well-documented thing. see e.g. yarvin's old material re 'inner light doctrine' etc
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere ben_vulpes
snsabot: ben_vulpes last seen in #asciilifeform on 2020-07-03 00:07:14: one last thing. in re http://verisimilitudes.net/2018-06-06 verisimilitude i'm not going to be bound by any fixed set of words you propose i limit myself to
asciilifeform: ^ in fact not so long ago.
verisimilitude: It's queer he never responded to me, apparently.
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