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feedbot: << A Syndication of Verisimilitudes -- A Review of ``Let Over Lambda'' By Doug Hoyte
cgra: the course i'm now attending for my sane computing curriculum, is binary auditability. atm i'm carving out the glibc bloat and trinque's musl bootstrap seemed like a suitable ingredient. i just finished building it and came to report the results so far
snsabot: Logged on 2020-09-07 19:30:13 trinque: asciilifeform and shinohai, find instructions to build the musltron here
cgra: the stage 2 didn't work for me as is, because texinfo seems to depend on help2man, *and* vice versa
cgra: texinfo generates it's manpages using help2man, and help2man generates its info pages using texinfo
cgra: considering various approaches, the least dirty way to get around it was to add a "help2man_binonly" trinque-designed install target, with a simple "cp help2man /bin/help2man; chmod 755 /bin/help2man" install commands
cgra: the still-dirty part here is that i had to copy the help2man 'software package' with a new 'help2man_binonly' name
cgra: i got it to finish this way, and didn't run into any other, obvious issue afterwards
asciilifeform: cgra: neato. (btw, in case wasn't obvious, the gnat used by asciilifeform for ffa work has been glibc-free since ch11)
cgra: << asciilifeform, wasn't aware of exact details when, but i assumed musl-based, yeah. also, personally already had to drop a handful of ffa's restrictions, and tweak a ffa build param, because so far i've been using the gnat in ubuntu 16.04, which is older than the adacore 2016
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 12:11:49 asciilifeform: cgra: neato. (btw, in case wasn't obvious, the gnat used by asciilifeform for ffa work has been glibc-free since ch11)
asciilifeform: cgra: outta curiosity: which gnat? and which pragmas ?
cgra: 'gnat --version' says 'GNAT 4.9.3'
cgra: and copyright year up to 2014
asciilifeform: cgra: in the past, where asciilifeform & others found gnats where pragmas incompat., was not version issue as such -- but that there is an entire lineage of broken gnats ('fsf fork')
asciilifeform: cgra: ~these~ gnats also known to break e.g. inlining.
asciilifeform: my rec. is not to use these. for anything.
cgra: right. trinque's bootstrap ought to solve these issues too
cgra: (for me specifically)
asciilifeform: aha. as i understand, his procedure ( i have not, ftr, yet replicated ) results in a gnat compatible w/ ave1's (i.e. the one i presently use)
asciilifeform: and pragmas etc. can stay , there, as given.
cgra: ubuntu 16.04 gnat (mine) didn't accept these pragmas: No_Fixed_Io, No_Implicit_Protected_Object_Allocations, No_Implicit_Task_Allocations, No_Multiple_Elaboration, No_Task_At_Interrupt_Priority, Pure_Barriers
asciilifeform: cgra: this nails it -- you had a 'fsf' gnat.
asciilifeform: cgra: re auditable binaries -- my eventual goal is to get a completely libc-free substitute gnat rts for use w/ ffa (and potentially other items).
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-06 13:28:21 asciilifeform: recently had been looking at the 'ada rts' and its variants (e.g. ave1's) with the aim of eventual 'iron' rts that actually builds stock ffa/peh.
cgra: asciilifeform: as a curiosity, another gnat quirk was a compiler switch '-fdump-scos', only '-gnateE' worked, which appeared to be the same, only older name
asciilifeform: cgra: the output of the dump is used in debugging, and by the htmlizer.
cgra: asciilifeform: did you have a specific 'os' approach already in mind for this iron rts? apparently not linux, also 'dos-like' mentioned, but maybe not exactly a 'dos'?
asciilifeform: cgra: the only 'os' knobs presently required by ffa, is a working stack; access to command-line args; and character i/o (read/write console) .
cgra: asciilifeform: re dump-scos, right
cgra: asciilifeform: is the slim-os peh box going to resemble the 'cardano' item as originally thought?
asciilifeform: cgra: in certain ways would inevitably resemble.
asciilifeform: cgra: i ought to make clear that i do not atm have any plans to mass-produce any kind of irons (beyond handful of prototypes for own use.) simply because it -- afaik -- cannot be done economically.
cgra: asciilifeform: yeah, gotten this impression from the logs too
asciilifeform: see also.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
asciilifeform: re: economics, take, for instance, asciilifeform's earlier attempt at irons. at no point had anyone to whom could delegate inspection & testing. so 100% of units sold, tested with ~own~ hands. this does not scale.
asciilifeform: and will also note, no one (w/ exception of 1 -- at the time -- lurker) outside the 'cult', bought.
cgra: yeah, pretty tiny market
asciilifeform: cgra: i'm not even convinced that there is a niche market.
asciilifeform: << i tend to use 'dos-like' as a shorthand for any hypothetical os which does not carry on background processing (i.e., invocations of os api are 100% explicit)
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 12:49:42 cgra: asciilifeform: did you have a specific 'os' approach already in mind for this iron rts? apparently not linux, also 'dos-like' mentioned, but maybe not exactly a 'dos'?
asciilifeform: technically msdos itself did not 100% conform to this portrait, it hooked the timer interrupt, updated time of day. but the idea imho is clear.
cgra: basically, one program runs at a time
asciilifeform: aha. and w/out interrupts (aside from power toggle.)
cgra: i must switch to async mode again, talk you later!
asciilifeform: laters.
verisimilitude: The state of computing is both maddening and pathetic.
verisimilitude: There's a ``silver lining'', in the idea that those such as us can make an influence, however.
verisimilitude: It's akin to wanting to become an architect, and learning to horror that no one actually knows how to build bridges.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'll admit that i do not believe, at this point, that 'can make difference' -- the decay of computer is simply small part of the general decline of the current civilization. and everything i write, will, sooner rather than later, vanish underneath kilometers of liquishit. but choose to act as if this were not the case. similarly to how soldier goes into the attack without
asciilifeform: thinking about the certain death (and one who insists 'to think' , is correctly called a coward)
asciilifeform: see also.
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-05-18 asciilifeform: and even if he believes that it ~cannot~ be further shrunk, it remains his job to die trying
asciilifeform: and, in similar vein, also.
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-05-31 asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
asciilifeform: it is similar to how, in all (but perhaps the reich's) conceptions of medical ethics, doctor does NOT get to ask the question 'does treating this patient benefit societal good (tm)(r)(c) or maybe why not poison him'
asciilifeform: so, asciilifeform does not suffer the illusion that 'will make difference!' by writing. chance of this, is ~0. but continues anyway, 'because fuckyou'.
asciilifeform: and will note, historically ~100% of acts that did 'make difference', were carried out strictly on the basis of 'because fuckyou', i.e. w/out giving half a shit re 'chances'.
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: $20676.13
asciilifeform: ^ record ?
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 16 nodes...
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.095s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661496
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.083s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
watchglass: : Alive: (0.085s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.094s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=661595 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.140s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.340s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=391683 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.310s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661385
watchglass: : Alive: (0.297s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.305s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.523s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=435421
watchglass: : Busy? (No answer in 120 sec.)
verisimilitude: I'm convinced I can make some manner of influence, the purpose of my previous messages being to note that, when I'd first started my journey, I'd no idea it would be so odd. I'd no idea just how immature and senseless it would be.
verisimilitude: Charlatans such as Bjarne Stroustrup go on stage and pretend to have done anything of any worth, rather than only being actively detrimental to society.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: depending on how low is your personal standard for "make some manner of influence" -- perhaps then can
verisimilitude: I could be using a lower standard, yes. I seek to influence computing in the same way a mathematician could influence mathematics, say.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: stroustrup is best understood in light of the deskilling fashion of the '80s--present.
verisimilitude: Is C++ even good for deskilling labour?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i could say 'but mathematics, unlike computing, actually advances..' but now not convinced even of this.
verisimilitude: It's filled with bizarre issues which require a brain to step around.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ~was sold~ as good for deskilling process.
asciilifeform: similar to , decade later, javaism.
verisimilitude: Computing is most unlike mathematics for the same reason it appeals, because of its more practical nature, which invites charlatans.
verisimilitude: What's a ``Developer Advocate'', but someone who can't program, yet still wants the attention associated with it?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: optimizes for, in fact, charlatans.
asciilifeform: is systemic problem with entire field.
verisimilitude: Yes; charlatans not only don't know what they're doing, but have an interest in overstating the difficulties of basic tasks to normal people.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: entire field is structured in such a way that anyone who does not behave this way, remains obscure and with 0 mass influence.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-12 13:04:27 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: it long ago went from 'mistake, like leaded petrol' to deliberate 'job-creating tech' fraud.
verisimilitude: Yes.
verisimilitude: Still, we found each other, and others find me. I know loper-os influenced me.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: a++, then. erry yr or so, 1-2 folx write in, 'i read this, it made sense, ty for writing.'
verisimilitude: Yes; it's pleasant when I get emails telling me how I've educated another.
asciilifeform: occasionally folx even show up w/ sumthing useful.
asciilifeform: but very rarely.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: upstack -- imho it is worth understanding why well-designed, simple, and functional systems remain obscure, while perl/cpp/microshit 'wins'. if more sane folx understood the basics of the underlying civilizational decay which powers this process, would die of cirrosis less often and overall happier imho
asciilifeform: (when they do not understand -- tend to 'blame self')
verisimilitude: One could argue the current democratic system encourages such self-blame.
verisimilitude: I occasionally think back to my schooling, and how ignorant I'd be had I not taken mine education into my hands, but I was able to recognize that this was the only way I'd truly become educated; most people think they've better things to do than learn.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: imho 0 to do with the political systems as such, but folks in computing industry, more than in e.g. medical, labour sometimes for entire career under the delusion that there is 'market of ideas' where 'better tech wins' etc
verisimilitude: My comment on democracy was more general, sure.
verisimilitude: I'd think a main aspect to this is they simply don't understand for why the machines exist.
verisimilitude: We've surely heard versions of the stories concerning the man who builds a calculator program, where every possible combination is explicitly covered.
asciilifeform: the delusion is not accidental, it is cultivated quite strategically, to draw participants into various tournament markets.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there are in fact two main schools of thought re the q of why machines exist (not even speaking of computer in the particular!)
verisimilitude: That's a classic, yes.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: at the risk of oversimplification -- one school is that they exist so that rockefeller can buy 15 yachts instead of 1 while you work in either case 25 years of 14hour days and then die.
asciilifeform: other school -- machines exist so that you can perhaps work 10y of 2h days, and if rockefeller objects, you can kill him with yet-another machine.
verisimilitude: While I prefer the latter, neither quite match my thoughts.
asciilifeform: the former school, currently (unsurprise) dominant, the latter -- not detectable, in known universe, afaik. but this is simplistic model, which imho nonetheless usefully describes the fundamental split.
asciilifeform: as to 'why', see e.g. discussion re 'technology of rule' and bonsaikittenization.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-17 11:36:28 asciilifeform: from 'technology of ruling' pov, whole post-war 20th c was one continuous thrust in that direction. i.e. the rulers on some level realized that 'resting on bayonets' is dead end, not because doesn't work (can work for many yrs at a stretch) but because the threat ever hangs , that the fucked-with will find a way to strike back, and give you a 1917.
asciilifeform: is rather deep (and quite 'flammable') subject , of which you are unlikely to find a thorough and intellectually-honest treatment perhaps anywhere. esp. in english.
verisimilitude: On this general note, I'll be preparing a comment to give another remark on a foolish worship of such false gods; care to see the altar in question?
asciilifeform: wainot
asciilifeform: i recall reading this, and utterly failing to extract 'the point'
asciilifeform: there is unfortunately a whole net of this kind of drivel, where author evidently sat down to 'fill the page' but w/out any actual idea to express
asciilifeform: see also re these 'ideas'.
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-08-17 phf: Framedragger: i was young and a bum, i recognized all these people because my entertainment machine would reinforce their presence for me. "oh jwz is talking. oh now it's ptacek. oh it's paul graham! squee". but they were always in a different category from say norvig or knuth or naggum. once i started doing and learning (i.e. painfully read knuth, rather than just have him on my shelf) i finally was able to grok the difference.
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-12-11 phf: goes back to our conversation about "why you no respect ptacek". since their opinions are not hinged on any deliberately lived experience, they change them according to fashions. if you happen to be fashion aligned you'll think that they are geniuses, but as soon as you start doing your own thing, you realize just how superficial they are
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-08-18 asciilifeform: y begin to understand that a hacker is someone who resembles Eric Raymond. Dave Winer has recently and mercifully moved his essays off to audio, but you can still hear him snorfling cashew nuts and talking at length about what it means to be a blogger[7] . These essays and this writing style are tempting to people outside the subculture at hand because of their engaging personal tone and idiosyncratic, insider's view. But after a whi
verisimilitude: The only point I see is worshipping Mammon.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there was more substance (and, more entertainment value) in a typical piece in 'pravda', than in pieces like the linked item
asciilifeform: erry succeeding generation of 'cockroach man', i suppose unsurprisingly, is more pathetically incapable of meaningful output, than previous.
asciilifeform: 'every time we thought we hit the bottom, somebody knocked from below'(tm)(r)(ru meme)
billymg: << tbh anything below $100k is a bit of yawn, given all the printing they done and how much the stock market has inflated as a result
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 14:25:12 btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: $20676.13
billymg: they've*
billymg: asciilifeform: what do you use to generate the list of popular articles in your www's sidebar? is it automated based on view count? hand rolled functionality or off-the-shelf wp plugin?
billymg: it's a handy feature and i noticed mp-wp doesn't have it (or at least it isn't obvious to me yet where it's buried if it does indeed exist somewhere in there)
trinque: hey folks, just wanted to flag that if some batshit regulation around crypto wallets comes out soon, I will be enforcing whatever nonsense they demand.
trinque: if that's unappealing to you, I encourage you to stop using the wallet before that happens.
trinque: or if a person in a saner jurisdiction wants to pick this component up (jurov?) I'm open to that as well.
mats: thanks for your years of service
feedbot: << The Montevideo Standard -- USAG Barr Out, Electoral College Goes For Biden
asciilifeform: trinque: is this warning prompted by anything in particular, or simply depression from hruschevrump being retired in favour of bidenezhnev ?
asciilifeform would close shop sooner than enforcing, satan forbid, any new 'regulations'. there's already 'over 9000' regulation-enforcing shops to choose from, i've no interest in running one.
asciilifeform: ftr asciilifeform uses deedbot-wallet today strictly as a store credit acct for subscription to deedbot .
asciilifeform: trinque and in your case, even in 'apocalyptic' scenario, i can't see wainot run it 1) for l1 strictly 2) via pgpgram controls strictly.
asciilifeform: if in your l1 there is a usg stooge, you will have problems whether or not operating a wallet service.
asciilifeform: and if there aint -- yer bulletproof.
asciilifeform: << 100% agree, and see also.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 16:52:09 billymg: << tbh anything below $100k is a bit of yawn, given all the printing they done and how much the stock market has inflated as a result
snsabot: (alethepedia) 2020-10-11 asciilifeform: thimbronion: the altcoinists -- sure . but i was speaking of the fact that the exch rate prolly aint growing another 0 -- or rather, not w/out the dollar price of archaetypical sandwich also growing a zero.
asciilifeform: << 100% by hand.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 16:58:44 billymg: asciilifeform: what do you use to generate the list of popular articles in your www's sidebar? is it automated based on view count? hand rolled functionality or off-the-shelf wp plugin?
asciilifeform: << did anyone seriously expect sumthing else ?!
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 19:29:14 feedbot: << The Montevideo Standard -- USAG Barr Out, Electoral College Goes For Biden
shinohai: Heya asciilifeform speaking of yer www, couldja link me to where you have all the seals various folx have signed for ffa ?
asciilifeform: shinohai: i dun have a centralized page for such links. deliberately. i dislike catering to folx who 'just want to build it'. fucking read the series. one article at a time.
asciilifeform: ffa is more of a flamethrower against 'i just want to build it' people than anyffin else, arguably
shinohai: ahh ok, I was just curious if there was such a thing. (ftr I don't "just wanna build it") but rather wanted to mirror sigs with my notes)
asciilifeform: shinohai: fair'nuff. i'ma assemble a tarball for you (but probably not today)
shinohai: asciilifeform: No rush. I'm trying to discipline self to finish the series, have carved daily time for this.
asciilifeform: shinohai: where are you in it nao ?
asciilifeform: (and ftr, series aint quite finished on asciilifeform's end presently. but i strongly suspect that i'ma finish it before any reader has..)
shinohai: Ch. 7 presently was as far as I got. Gotta check and ensure I uploaded my seal to yer www, I left off when girls went back to visit Colombia.
shinohai had to *gasp* cook for self every day ....
asciilifeform: shinohai: feel free to put in a <tt></tt> in a comment. or link.
asciilifeform: shinohai: btw 1-11 are here (on acct of the keccak regrind in '18)
asciilifeform: lest this escape -- verisimilitude : i bought that book when it came out, and enjoyed at the time. but today i'm of same mind re this item as of pg's 'on lisp' --
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 00:02:34 feedbot: << A Syndication of Verisimilitudes -- A Review of ``Let Over Lambda'' By Doug Hoyte
asciilifeform: most of what is illustrated in these works, imho ought not to be done. e.g. anaphoric macros. 99++% of the time simply abused by folx who want to 'look clever', and in fact serves no useful purpose, proggy becomes ~less~ readable.
asciilifeform: and take reader macros. here for instance i illustrate a program which is made substantially shorter via their use. but was good idea ? and ought to have even written said proggy ?
asciilifeform: similar observation can be made re many other 'clever' techniques.
asciilifeform: take e.g. lazy evaluation. (in some esp. horrifying prog langs, is standard!) when is it actually a Good Thing from the pov of 'fits-in-head' ?
asciilifeform: haskellism is a sin.
verisimilitude: The book is worth reading, but not all of it's worth remembering.
verisimilitude: There's only, I believe, one more Common Lisp book I've read that I've not also reviewed.
verisimilitude: Well, there's another I've no intention to review.
trinque: asciilifeform: declaring my lack of intent to involve myself in the common law digestion of bitcoin.
trinque: if they say I have to take your passport to send a withdrawal, I'll be doing that.
trinque: if you don't want me to do that, !!withdraw now.
trinque: hopefully they aren't so stupid as to do that. if they do, I'll just be awaiting their demise epsilon more quietly than before.
trinque: incidentally it's trump's dipshit munchkin that's apparently mulling kyc for traditional node transactions.
superkuh: That can't be enforceable. But then again, I suppose it's not the point. The point is to criminalize normal behavior and arbitrarily enforce.
asciilifeform: trinque: i'd take whatever warning (historically always was warning) an' close.
asciilifeform: trinque: feel free to invoice me for 1, 5, 10, however yrs of deedbot service you're willing to contract in 1 shot. after which will withdraw remainder, given that you seem to want outta the walletron biz
trinque: I'm happy to continue to run that indefinitely, but bitcoin is no longer going to be res publica for me.
trinque: hopefully I'm not on IRC in 10yrs; why don't we work something out next summer or w/e it is. may as well be free.
asciilifeform: trinque: imho is valuable service, and i have 0 problem paying. even if has to be bought n yrs at a time to avoid enriching miners.
trinque: glad you find it valuable; it'll continue to be available to you.
trinque: this is entirely about the creeping FDR scenario for btc.
asciilifeform: re upstack: imho bitcoin works correctly precisely for so long as the users don't have to give a flying fuck re fdrization, 'common law digestion', etc
asciilifeform: as far as i'm concerned, it is already effectively banned. yet somehow still not gassed.
trinque: correct, which is why I oughtn't be cold storage for folx.
trinque: I can see a scenario where I rework it to track addresses but contain nothing itself.
asciilifeform: trinque: my conception re orig. utility of deedbot was more of a 'store credit' than substitute for actual wallet.
trinque: thus invoices still work etc
trinque: yep
asciilifeform: i.e. asciilifeform can buy bitcent's worth of deedbot subscription w/out paying some fuckwad in china five bitcents, etc
trinque: maybe BingoBoingo wishes to pick the wallet up. he's freer than most of us.
trinque: no pressure, but entirely open to that.
verisimilitude: What a thought. I don't even much like IRC and I've been using it for years.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 21:24:55 trinque: hopefully I'm not on IRC in 10yrs; why don't we work something out next summer or w/e it is. may as well be free.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: laugh if you will, but asciilifeform was orig. 'dragged kicking and screaming' to irc. by mp, of all people.
verisimilitude: I'd laugh, but it's not so funny.
trinque: verisimilitude: some folks made a distributed udp chat app atop
trinque: appears to work, even
asciilifeform: 'the Node.js implementation' << lel
trinque: ikr
verisimilitude: I'm of the opinion there should be no difference between IRC, email, etc. The only difference should be in how they're commonly used, but there's no reason not historical to have separate protocols.
trinque: obviously so
asciilifeform: trinque: makes ms vb feel 'lightweight', eh
verisimilitude: If only were it obvious.
trinque: yeah, not speaking of these implementations, or even that they got the protocol right
trinque: speaking of the void they farted this into
asciilifeform: trinque: it aint the protocol, in such cases, that worrisome. but whether they 'got' ~personnel selection~ right.
asciilifeform: i've yet to see any example where there is smell of e.g. 'node js' , where there is 'something under the mouse shit' to be found
trinque: what personnel? I'm literally the only person on the default chat "swarm" atm
trinque: :D
asciilifeform: trinque: authors
verisimilitude: That little game on loper-os is neat, asciilifeform.
trinque: sure, just 'taking the piss'
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: which ?
verisimilitude: It's the guessing game.
trinque: they don't appear to have any notion of proper WoT in this thing
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: aa, ulam's fortune teller
verisimilitude: That's an example of some JavaScript not entirely worthless, although it was translated from BASIC, right?
trinque: most likely utterly DDoSable.
asciilifeform: trinque: i've not witnessed where, other than us, had anything resembling an organized notion of wot
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it's a dozen ln of straight js, tho. vs multi-MB 'libraries' of e.g. 'node'.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: errything i know about js, learned in '90s on 'netscape', to 1st approximation.
verisimilitude: I've written one line of JavaScript, and it never even saw the light of day for its intended purpose.
trinque: verisimilitude: the js world's known for trivial programs hauling in 3gb of dependencies
verisimilitude: I'm considering writing some, for one page and a simple purpose, but I'm not looking forward to it.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i (and not only ) am convinced that the author of js intended it as a practical joke
verisimilitude: Yes, left-pad and is-even and all of that.
verisimilitude: The cretins also have the gall to complain about mockery pointed at them.
asciilifeform: trinque, upstack : ftr asciilifeform spent ~years~ just about 'praying to satan' for a 'fdr scenario' . where perhaps suddenly e.g. serpent hardware ciphrator, to shoot in the head very concept of 'digital evidence', would be suddently marketable.
asciilifeform: ( even nao, with correctly-operated setup, no one can prove that trinque, even if found 'with pants down', in fact controls one single privkey. simply, presently 'correct operation' is nontrivial.)
asciilifeform: imho, evolution of decentralized systems stalled, because climate ~too hospitable~ for bitcoin, turned out.
trinque: sure, the banks et al are going nowhere
asciilifeform: aha, but at the time when wrote the piece, was quite convinced that in 2-3 yrs , folx would be publicly hanged on mere suspicion of involvement with bitcoin.
asciilifeform: (and, that said friction would drive technological refinement. weapon/counter-weapon.)
trinque: nah, worst scenario here is just that the derps let coinbase and a few others have regulatory capture, and coinbase will sell itself to jpmorgan or similar.
asciilifeform: trinque: afaik already owned (by andersen, not jpm -- but , is important difference ? )
asciilifeform: and already is the only Officially Permitted place to sell coin in usa. for some years.
trinque: when it's done being corrupted, you'll know, because it wont work for you, them only.
trinque: mining, as you aptly observed years ago, is the bug.
trinque: you can hide the keys; you cannot hide the mines
asciilifeform: in all respects that involve usd -- thing already 'worx only for Them', to a 1st approx.
asciilifeform: trinque: in point of fact, could easily hide the mines. that one can read about massive racks full of identical chinesium in operation somewhere, is neither here nor there. yes it is cheaper to operate if you dun have to hide, rather than having to disguise the boxen as cable tv decoders. but entirely optional luxury.
trinque: who, hide from whom?
asciilifeform: if the mines have to be hidden -- or rather, if it becomes +ev to hide'em , from whatever obvious inspection -- they will be. and for all i know, already routinely so.
asciilifeform: trinque: hide from hypothetical tax inspector or other bandits
trinque: I don't mean space pirates hiding tiny miners; I mean the giant industrial ones producing mega-heat
asciilifeform: the mega-heat is simply from 1e6 fingernail-sized ics under 1 roof. there's no particular reason why they ~have~ to live under 1 roof. (tho yes, is cheaper than alternative atm)
trinque: not to mention mega-draw of power, which is already reported to the govt per utility user.
asciilifeform: right, but above applies similarly.
trinque: the alternative requires a great awakening of the derps, does it not?
trinque: or otherwise some cyberpunk cable modem manufacturer, or?
asciilifeform: nope. in fact periodically surfaces already, i recall not long ago, a (shitcoin) miner turned up in a commonplace 'nas' device. (dun have link handy atm, sadly)
trinque: point being I don't expect great success with it
trinque: what I expect is govt mandated address blacklists within ten years
trinque: or otherwise the collapse (god willing) of the megastates, but who knows.
asciilifeform: trinque: atm it's a -ev / curio. but if 'tightened screws', could easily become the standard type of miner.
asciilifeform: trinque: recall, there is already 'mandatory blacklist'. iirc had 5 whole addrs in it! on usg's, no less. for some reason no one gave half a fuck in '17 (or when was this) or now.
verisimilitude: Maybe the government's just pretending to be incompetent, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: to summarize above : in '11, asciilifeform thought 'they'll build concentration camps for bitcoin users'. but actual strategy of enemy seems to be 'let's spread fud, and the users will shit themselves thinking about concentration camps, and will go home'
trinque: mining centralizes, ongoingly. treaties around mining will be made eventually, if not soon.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what's the upper temporal limit re this hypothesis ? already on 11th yr of somehow not concentration camp.
trinque: from there, the entirety of the totalitarian system will slip into bitcoin.
verisimilitude: I was wondering, were my sarcasm to communicate properly or not.
trinque: concentration camps were some dipshit painter's fetish
asciilifeform: trinque: british invention. boer war.
trinque: the banks were in control before him, and after him
trinque: sure, just saying it got him hard
trinque: it did nothing else
asciilifeform: actually worx great. if bumping people off simply, rwanda-style, eventually partizan resistence. (see also how rwanda endgame.) but if take hostages -- slows process.
asciilifeform: upstack, stratagem 'shoot erryone who so much as mentioned bitcoin' was 'the spoon is good at dinner time', i.e. was the 'thing to do' 7y ago. before the oligarchs bought in. (these generally do not appreciate attempts to make their holdings worthless)
asciilifeform: fdr incidentally succeeded (for some value of..) because his elite largely did ~not~ hold au in serious qty, afaik.
asciilifeform: as for the coin, the correct algo to 'hodl' is exactly same today as was in '09. i.e. your hdd has what's indistinguishable from rng output. and as for the key, maybe you once had it, but now lost in boating accident. and forgot where boated. (and if you can't stick to the story, will have to carry cyanide.)
asciilifeform: and yes, may have easier life (or at least death..) if leave off e.g. publicly discussing concrete tx's. ('good time to quit is 20y ago; 2nd best -- now')
asciilifeform: then again very same piano may fall on you regardless.
asciilifeform already outlived his expected death by half a decade or so..
verisimilitude: There's never a good time to die, is there?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: e.g. napoleon, disagreed ('if there had been a musketball for me in moscow!' if only')
asciilifeform: << would like to emphasize -- imho if this is physically possible, then the sooner it takes place, the better. so can move on from the broken algo, to something else.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:00:28 trinque: from there, the entirety of the totalitarian system will slip into bitcoin.
asciilifeform: whole point, imho, of bitcoin, is to remove element of 'what might bureaucrats decide tomorrow' from the game board.
verisimilitude: In these modern times, I'd rather take a strictly anti-suicidal stance, so that any ``suicide'' of mine is obviously not.
asciilifeform: if fails at this -- it is a failed experiment. and the folx left alive, ought to try something ~else~.
verisimilitude: I'm not important enough to kill though, and what a horror that no one would ever look upon me and even think about killing me.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there's apparently a pretty long queue for 'getting suicided', there aint enuff for erryone.
asciilifeform: even epstein had to sit in his cell for a coupla days iirc.
verisimilitude: I really doubt he's actually dead.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: outta curiosity, why ?
verisimilitude: To draw an analogy, vampires can't kill other vampires, right?
asciilifeform: 'redivisions of the pie' are routine among oligarchs.
asciilifeform: much of '90s in ru consisted, sometimes very publicly, of this process.
asciilifeform: happens ~mandatorily when 'pie -- shrinks'. as is happening today in the 'civilized' world.
asciilifeform: so in point of fact, vampires rather frequently kill vampires.
verisimilitude: I've no doubt vampires kill humans when convenient, but I'm more skeptical when there's such a show of them supposedly killing another vampire.
asciilifeform: happens all the time. sometimes spins outta control into world war..
verisimilitude: Of course, this is one of many topics with which an opinion is easy to make, and entirely irrelevant to my life, so it's unimportant.
asciilifeform: when condemned 'vampire' won't 'go quietly'
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: as it happens, not entirely irrelevant. or, think, wouldn't have contemplated it.
verisimilitude: That just makes anything one thinks about relevant to one's life, which stretches tho concept of relevancy rather thinly.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: normally, if you're any kind of effective thinker, will rarely find yourself contemplating 100% irrelevant material.
verisimilitude: I suppose.
asciilifeform: in the sense where spam filter contemplates spam -- yes, will. but not often otherwise.
verisimilitude: Say, on that note, I've noticed many of the user agents I get from the logs being those for phones; it was a tad surprising to see so many phones.
verisimilitude: Had I a phone, I probably wouldn't've formed my greatest ideas, borne of boredom.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: almost sop today, for various bots to use pnoje-style ref string
asciilifeform: why -- i've nfi
asciilifeform: possibly they get served a lighter page, with fewer MB of js.
asciilifeform will bbl.
shinohai: LOL "Digital Democracy" re:

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