Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-03-30 | 2022-04-01 → ↓
mangol: actual quote from a National Security Journalism Fellow [sic] on twitter today: "If Democrats want to avoid a mid-term wipe out, they need to stop talking about inflation, crime and the economy. Voters care about 3 things right now: Trump's collusion with Russia in 2016; abolishing the gender binary and protecting public school students from their parents"
mangol: can't make this shit up
whaack: !e view-height
trbexplorer: block_height: 729841
trbexplorer: mins_since_last_block: 87
whaack: ah, miners are on a coffee break
whaack: phf: hey welcome back, i was toying around with the idea of making a vpatch hopper, the idea would be your site btcbase.org/patches , but with some irc interface so that anyone in WoT could update the site
PeterL: whaack: if you make one that is easy to set up and use, it would be a nice thing that each person could have on their own sites
asciilifeform: hm why irc interface rather than www hopper ?
PeterL: yes, a www hopper would work too, I was more thinking about having a nice way to view the vpatches, like btcbase does
whaack: asciilifeform: the irc interface means it can be integrated with pest so that upload is limited to pest peers
thimbronion: !e view-height
trbexplorer: block_height: 729846
trbexplorer: mins_since_last_block: 32
signpost: https://archive.ph/fdmQJ << "I call on all states to criminalize the use of the 'Z' symbol..."
asciilifeform: (tm)(r)z^Helenskiy
signpost: best and brightest in ukr government, eh?
shinohai imagines Don Diego de la Vega weeping in a corner ....
signpost: iirc I saw this morning that the ruble had indeed risen to pre-war levels.
signpost: not bad while the entire world is laying siege to your monetary system.
signpost: sadly my gold was lost in the same boating accident that took out my btc.
signpost: "But, by doing this he has very subtly also supported the Fed and it???s plan to withdraw dollars from Europe, because this will keep the price of gold in check for a little while and keeping the ECB from offsetting spiking Eurobond yields with higher gold reserves on its balance sheet."
signpost: asciilifeform: affixing my tinfoil hat, the ukr episode smells of a struck deal ^
signpost: "Putin on the left arm, Powell on the right and Lagarde is about to get pulled apart at the seams if Davos doesn't play ball and give up." etc
asciilifeform: signpost: asciilifeform orig. suspected that meat of the 'deal' was to sell us lng at 10x the antebellum rate to eureich
asciilifeform: likely this part will happen on sched
signpost: this, perhaps damage the euro currency system. economic destruction of yurp propped up the american empire last time.
asciilifeform: purportedly us only can supply ~tenth of the req'd fuel tho. which means curtain call for what remains of industry in eureich
signpost: meanwhile putin and xi get to switch to their own currencies for exports.
asciilifeform: could've, afaik, ~decade ago tho
signpost: might've been waiting to let us soften up, meanwhile piling up gold.
asciilifeform recalls recent lulzy reich.decree 'cancelling'(tm) ru gold
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090693 << saw this the other day via orlov's blog (which has been entertaining lately)
bitbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 16:29:07 asciilifeform: meanwhile in misc. ukrowank.
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-30#1090423 << i'm not completely in the camp of "muh based russia" but there's a certain amount of "the enemy of my enemy..." in how i view the situation
bitbot: Logged on 2022-03-30 01:51:22 phf: there's the new right wing eschatology "i'll leave for russia, which is not the globohomo!", with its mirror urban russian escatology "i'll leave for anywhere else, which is where iphone!"
asciilifeform: billymg: is somewhat complicated, ru brass aint 100% external to reich
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-28 22:21:08 asciilifeform: mats: asciilifeform's guess is that he's hobbled by traitorous ministers who already reserved villas in miami. is the only half-plausible explanation for over9000 'whys'
signpost: only "out" I ever contemplated was "tmsr in 50 years"
billymg: btw wb phf, encouraging to see people i read in the logs long ago return
asciilifeform: in the time of the prev. reich this was called 'internal emigration'
billymg: asciilifeform: true, but it seems china/india/brazil are on russia's side as well in this. or perhaps just *not* on america's side
signpost: on the side of a "multi-polar world" they say.
billymg: yeah, which beats a purely reich ruled world imo
billymg: or at least that's my hope
signpost: perhaps, but unclear if that's true for *you*
signpost: my italian relatives came to philly, lost everything that made them italian.
signpost: not being a downer here, just stating plainly that changes in world order affect everything.
asciilifeform: signpost: in the days when the anglo reich's 'lift was headed up', this was commonplace. but observe how today's south amer. folx in usa aint 'assimilating', they're solidly 'spanish' n gen later
asciilifeform lives near a great many of these, they openly fly mexican, salvadorean, etc. flags, raise chickens, have mega-parties w/ over9000 relatives, won't hear any english spoken when walking by
shinohai: i like the mega-parties, just take the hot girls wherever you here mexican polka and you got a night of free booze.
billymg wonders if an actual sovereign like russia or china will ever do a "passport4life for 5 btc" kind of scheme like el salvador (which does it for 3)
billymg: asciilifeform: if russia offered that, would you take it?
thimbronion: billymg: not clear if ES has passed that legislation yet. Talking to a guy next week.
billymg: ah, got it
signpost: shinohai: unless I misremember, you look like you're in their wot.
billymg: thimbronion: you're there now, right?
signpost: this makes all the difference, lol
thimbronion: billymg: I fly in today.
thimbronion: signpost: IMO white privilege thriving amongst latinos
billymg: what i'm hoping is that the "multi-polar world" *will* benefit individuals (with btc) because countries will offer protection in exchange for some
billymg: but unclear, trend seems to be to make all use of btc outside of reich licensed/authorized venues illegal
billymg: and even in multi-polar world could see the poles aggreeing on this
billymg: agreeing*
shinohai: signpost: the latino wot? Yes, extensive meat wot exists in that world.
signpost can get brown as all hell, got italian and greek genes helping with that.
signpost: but I'm outed as soon as I try out my spanish.
shinohai: i sound like that guy in the ending of kill bill
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090730 << ru passport aint over9000 hard to get (esp. if you speak ru), but in all cases you gotta move there 1st
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 13:20:55 billymg: asciilifeform: if russia offered that, would you take it?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-29 22:05:27 asciilifeform: not moved anywhere, because what actually wants is to move outta workschwitz, and at his place in foodchain this requires 'a different globe' rather than simply plane ticket..
billymg: asciilifeform: i meant supposing you had a stack of btc to survive on for a few lifetimes
billymg: and russia's agreement was simply, 5btc, then yer free
asciilifeform: billymg: if. tho for these afaik ru aint the easiest place to run on btc
asciilifeform: ( phf might know concretely )
billymg: i was also imagining in that scenario that they'd have a more open btc enconomy
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-15 10:45:24 asciilifeform: mats: asciilifeform finds interesting the continued disdain for btc in ru (and not merely among officials, who run own 'printer, brrr' and one'd expect, but among commoners) -- is seen as instrument of foreign domination
billymg: just wishful thinking at this point, but if people prove really good at keeping their cold storage cold then countries might start to return to the carrot as a way of getting some
asciilifeform: problem is that one gotta eat erry day, and not simply when wind blows in correct direction.
asciilifeform: 'system can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent'(tm)(r)(the zerohedge people)
billymg: yes, this is a 'hodl until victory' strategy
bitbot: Logged on 2022-01-15 00:51:23 asciilifeform: 'hodl' until victory/death.
billymg: but things are moving fast lately, could be sooner than we think
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $45824.8
asciilifeform: ^ so far the various dampeners work a++, war had less measurable effect on '# of 0s' than e.g. 1 fart of musk last yr
asciilifeform: i.e. btc-usd exch rt aint in any serious way uncoupled from the moneyprinter
thimbronion: asciilifeform: btc rarely goes up significantly in response to positive news in the short term. If it did, line drawers would be $rich.
signpost doesn't expect moar movement til block reward halves.
asciilifeform: signpost: i dun recall any palpable effects from any prev. halving
billymg: exchange rate seems orthogonal to a country making it freely legal / selling citizenship for it
asciilifeform: ( erry time folx expect one, and lolno )
signpost: depends on whether you consider the run to $70k an effect.
signpost: certainly not settled.
billymg: in fact, if exchange rate is low, better deal for the government, they get more in btc terms
asciilifeform: signpost: afaik that was the musk fart run
asciilifeform: and when he sucked the fart back in, 100% reversed
billymg: countries should jump on opportunity to court reich refugees now
billymg: before it grows another zero
asciilifeform: normally 'court refugees' happens when they're good for sumthing. e.g. the various highly qualified specialists from sovok in '70s, usg buttered'em up over9000 (and most ended up driving cabs anyway)
billymg: why not good for the fact that they have bt
billymg: btc*
billymg: which they would otherwise take to the grave
signpost is of two minds about the block reward schedule.
asciilifeform: well in that case yer meat, and what the 'courter' actually wants aint yer earthly carcass, but the coinz
asciilifeform: wouldja want to be in that position voluntarily?
signpost: on the one hand, it may be a design flaw that the amount of reward per unit of time does not change depending on demand of BTC.
billymg: they don't get your coins is what i'm saying
billymg: you die with them
billymg: they die with you
signpost: on the other, perhaps this results in better distribution of coins.
signpost: this supposes that the bubbles forming and bursting cause miners to unload more of their hodl in the bust.
asciilifeform: billymg: what they bank on is that you won't take'em to grave.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-05-01 asciilifeform: basic course on russian privatization. 'your formerly state-issued flat is now yours. you are a millionaire!' - 'neato. but my salary hasn't been paid in a year. gotta buy something to eat. what does dinner cost?' - 'half a million.'
asciilifeform: i.e. the german j00 gold extraction algo.
billymg: asciilifeform: i.e. exchange rate games?
signpost: the use of fiat-side financing to avoid distributing hodl might also be a design flaw.
billymg: keep the rate suppressed so that you have to voluntarily spend your stack
signpost: thwarting the distribution mechanism supposed above.
asciilifeform: billymg: mno
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-13 20:46:45 asciilifeform: in train to auschwitz, glass of water cost exactly 1 gold watch.
billymg: difference is they can lift the watch off your corpse
billymg: they can't take the keys
asciilifeform: often enuff they didn't need to take it off the corpse, tho
billymg: if you find yourself on the train car just blow your brains out to spite them
signpost suspects they didn't have too many firearms inside said traincar.
asciilifeform: naturally. point was, why voluntarily buy ticket for such a train
signpost: also "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
billymg: asciilifeform: ah i see
billymg: asciilifeform: so you were more saying "it's a trap!" if any country offers you something in exchange for btc
asciilifeform: signpost: recently finished reading backbreaker, eichmann trial. on a few occasions someone in fact came off the train with a pistol
asciilifeform: billymg: correct
billymg: asciilifeform: could be, but i could also see some governments realizing that, at least for btc, carrot it more effective than stick
asciilifeform: interesting to consider what that could look like, in principle
signpost: asciilifeform: much respect to whomever got one up their cunt/asshole.
asciilifeform: e.g. if moscow were offering $1mil in rub equiv. per btc to any resident
signpost: billymg: only question I have is why the btc extraction would be "fair"
signpost: i.e. "passport costs... what you got?"
billymg: signpost: it doesn't have to be fair for all definitions of fair, just has to be "more fair" than 20% capital gains + suppressed exchange rate
asciilifeform: fresh passports historically cost 'what you got', yes
billymg: then the next country offers slightly better deal, and so on
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-29#1090410 << would expect most of the "unfair" to come after the paperwork.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-29 21:40:19 phf: i also attempted to recreate similar lifestyle in russia, and my take is that russia is kind of a shithole. unless you're going for the whole "one year in taiga", there's not really place to put a compound of any kind: there's going to be some local warlord or prince that'll decide to fuck with you, just because you stand out/have resources/etc.
asciilifeform: in uy, ru, etc less so, because these aint traditional 'escape' destinations
asciilifeform: iirc phf already had the passport tho
signpost: "heard some yankee fuck thinks he'll post up in a cafe for the next 40yrs. will have my cousin welcome him"
asciilifeform: signpost: 'the chechen treatment' aha
asciilifeform: 'Не покупайте квартиры у Маши, они всё равно будут наши'(tm) ('don't buy a flat from masha, it'll be ours soon enough anyway')
asciilifeform: ^ common graffiti in '90s ex-sovok during init. 'soft' ethnic cleansings
asciilifeform: 'don't buy mary's flat, soon you'll own it just like that'
asciilifeform wonders what the spanish rhyme will look like when anglo folx start 'making legs' from usa
billymg: what's "making legs"?
asciilifeform: turning tail
asciilifeform: or however it's called
signpost: "high-tailing it"
billymg: is it wrong to want to flee the bad guys?
asciilifeform: billymg: the only 'wrong' thing is to have unrealistic expectations of cashability of yer assets in such flight
signpost not criticizing anyone. I'm up against the same bad alternatives.
billymg: i'm not so pessimistic, though maybe the world is 100% rule-by-orc
asciilifeform: if we're talking science fictions, e.g. asciilifeform would move to ru if for 'court warez cracker by personal appointment to his majesty' etc.
asciilifeform: but if it's merely 'buy 1room flat in moscow for 5btc' then naturally gotta ask 'and then wat'
asciilifeform: fwiw atm the opposite is happening.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-29 21:56:23 phf: heard a joke, "it took medvedev 10 years to build skolkovo (a kind of technopark dev shop area in ru), and only a week for putin to turn yerevan into silicon valley"
asciilifeform: ( mass exodus of programmers & other bit-flippers outta ru, not even voluntarily but simply because the 1 way to live decently there as a wage worker was to work for the money-printing foreigners )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-29 21:57:12 asciilifeform: well afaik they're mostly a 'i work for london and would like to keep getting the paycheques' emigres
billymg: so i finally got the raid card and correct 2.5 to 3.5" sled adapters for my server but i can't get the thing to boot a gentoo install disk. worst part is nothing seems obviously wrong (gives single "all good" post beep, bios appears to work fine and doesn't show any errors, ram check on post passes)
asciilifeform: hmm billymg which card
billymg: also tried removed all but two sticks of ram, rotating those, tried without the raid card plugge din
billymg: plugged in*
asciilifeform: and where precisely does it stop
asciilifeform: (what's on the screen?)
asciilifeform: billymg: were you able to get into the card's boot rom menu ?
billymg: asciilifeform: first displays post screen, with "press DEL to enter setup". i can go into bios settings just fine.
billymg: get's stuck after that step
asciilifeform: how about the raid's post rom ? doesn't appear ?
billymg: when it gets stuck there's nothing on the screen, display just says "no signal from input"
asciilifeform: billymg: if it's a supermicro mb or similar, you gotta enable pci boot roms in bios
billymg: asciilifeform: never gets to raid's post rom, no
billymg: asciilifeform: the thing is, i've tried booting with the raid card pulled, same thing
asciilifeform: a then sounds like a dud mb
billymg: even though happy bios settings screen, happy beep?
asciilifeform: iirc billymg's kit was dropped from a cliff in shipping ?
billymg: i.e. nothing is screaming "error"
asciilifeform: billymg: try leaving it on the thermal monitor subscreen in the bios for coupla hrs
asciilifeform: see if overheats
billymg hasn't tried for a couple of hours but did notice "low" cpu temps on that screen after a few minutes
asciilifeform: billymg: do you own a 'post card' ?
billymg: i do not
asciilifeform: is what asciilifeform uses in cases like this
asciilifeform: is the only way to quickly detect e.g. failing line in ps, dud ram where not gets even to vga, etc
asciilifeform: billymg: do i recall correctly that this box was dropped in transit ?
asciilifeform: (or was that whaack's..?)
billymg: asciilifeform: dunno if dropped, but bent somehow
asciilifeform: billymg: bent almost always means -- dropped
billymg: the board/chassis is the least expensive part of the build, could order another one
asciilifeform: ( how didja think it bends ? )
billymg: asciilifeform: heavy objects on top will also bent
billymg: bend*
billymg: this was carried in a suitcase, not shipped
asciilifeform: if properly padded, the only way it'd bend is if were dropped
billymg: in any case, yes, damaged during shipment
asciilifeform when transporting to uy, had several bent rack ears, in corners where ~impossible to pad well, but errything electronic survived
asciilifeform: when returning boxen after fall of piz, finally realized that the ears do come off..
billymg: asciilifeform: from visual inspection it seems like everything is fine with the internals
billymg: bios even recognizes the usb stick plugged in (shows correct vendor, etc)
asciilifeform: billymg: the nearest i've seen to your case ( 'bios ok, but stone dead after post') was a sad ps, where not in fact sufficed to run the box after all cpus brought up
billymg: interesting
asciilifeform: difficult to say precisely whether yours -- this, or not, tho
billymg: i can try plugging directly into the wall instead of the UPS
asciilifeform: not ups
asciilifeform: i.e. the box's
billymg: right but was thinking potentially the UPS isn't delivering enough
billymg: to the PS
billymg: or is that not possible?
asciilifeform: nah if it were tripping, would notice
asciilifeform: billymg: see if you can swap in ps from similar box
billymg: will try the other ps then, came with two
thimbronion: this is where a tyan mb with a nice post code display would come in handy
billymg: oh well
billymg: no luck, with the second ps either
asciilifeform: likely the mb then
billymg: asciilifeform: it was this guy: https://www.ebay.com/itm/333442066992
asciilifeform has a # of boxen with this mb.
asciilifeform: not seen this particular headache with'em to date
billymg: $125 for the board, chassis, and two opterons
asciilifeform: evidently dinged tho
asciilifeform: (not even necessarily en route to castle billymg , even; price seems almost suspiciously lowball)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I run one of them - has been humming along for a couple years
thimbronion: they even do support calls
billymg: thimbronion: iirc you got yours from ebay too?
thimbronion: billymg: yeah same guy, likely
billymg: thimbronion: interesting, similar price too?
thimbronion: billymg: yep
billymg assumed the low price was because "burned out in google datacenter" prior
billymg: hrm
billymg: might just try ordering another one then
billymg: asciilifeform: any progress on the extra dulap?
asciilifeform: billymg: not in past mo. but will put it on front burner in coming wk
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-30 13:13:55 asciilifeform: fed claudia (rip) w/ syringes 7x/day for past month (couldn't eat normally)
asciilifeform: meanwhile, 'The US State Department announced on Thursday that it will offer a third ‘X’ gender option on passports as of April 11...'
billymg: asciilifeform: ty, appreciate it
verisimilitude: It's nice to see mutant representation.
billymg: reminds me of this
bitbot: (trilema) 2018-01-08 btcvixen: my id says female though
bitbot: (trilema) 2018-01-08 asciilifeform: and i'ma rhinoceros!
billymg: in 2022 asciilifeform can indeed be rhinoceros if he likes
jonsykkel: still waiting for pronoun field in addition to speaker in pest messages
billymg: wainotinspec!? transphobic!
verisimilitude: I can't put the ukrainian flag in my Pest name, because it doesn't allow Unicode.
phf: asciilifeform: not sure where that whole there's no btc in russia comes from, or the part about foreign control.
asciilifeform: well not 'no'
asciilifeform: but would expect not large % of the pot atm
asciilifeform: ( if phf knows reason to suspect otherwise , plox to expand )
phf: there's a handful of famous (second hand, i've never pursued, but "everyone knows") of some loud mouth hodl personality get robbed at gun point for coins
phf: *famous cases
phf: both as a "gop stop" and as an organized targeted raid
phf: so nobody talks about coins, who has any sizeable amount of coins
asciilifeform recalls hearing of at least 1 such robbery
PeterL: verisimilitude: sure you can
phf: but as far as "btc economy" there's just a lot of zoomer pragmatism, there seems to be a lot of high convenience coins at this point, that one can use to buy coffee or more often get paid by a shady london crypto company in exchange for your dev skills
UkrainianFlag_PeterL: haha, like this
Z: >.>
Z: Где все мои товарищи пролетарии ?
phf: various hackers have shown me their android wallets/exchanges where they would have their mixture of "coin X i get from work" "coin Y i trade to make extra $200/mo" and "i also sometimes buy into my bitcoin hodl", but it's a poor form to show the hodl, or even imply how much (or how little)
phf: also banking infrastructure is 20 years ahead of u.s. probably on par with chinese (i don't have personal knowledge, but that's the word). can do free micro transactions by counterparty's phone number/cc number/qr code/contract number. can e.g. buy street shavarma by doing a phone to phone transfer 150rub with no commission in real time. pretty much all the hole in the wall shops (electronics, horse equipment, hookah places, that's my
phf: personal experience) will use card to card transfer
verisimilitude: ``I continue to call on the Congress to swiftly pass the bipartisan Equality Act, which will ensure that LGBTQI+ individuals and families cannot be denied housing, employment, education, credit, and more because of who they are or who they love.''
verisimilitude: That should be ``or whom they love''; how sloppy.
verisimilitude: Anyway, it's nice to see the same nonsense used to push negroes on everyone will be used to push trannies on everyone.
phf: as far as "republican" use of coin that goes back to the part that you can't really know until you experience it: there's no freedom in russia, because it's not part of cultural make up. the only reason to hodl is so that you can go to spain, buy yourself a house, get eu residency and "finally live like a white man"
phf: there are of course exceptions to above, but they are non-overlapping. former millitary guys who like shashlik and ohota, living in the middle of nowhere, have no use/interest/etc. for anything more complicated than a radio. on the other end you have crypto barons (all 1 or 2 of them?) who long left to south america, because that's where all crypto barons go.
asciilifeform reads w/ interest phf's observations from voyage, but can't comment in depth as has not himself been there since ancient times
asciilifeform: evidently 'miamiism' still goin' strong on ru
asciilifeform wonders if will change shape when eureich no longer 'living like white man'
signpost: street shavarma for equiv $1.84!
signpost easily spends 12-14 bucks at the nearby halal place for one plate.
asciilifeform: similar to e.g. ro
asciilifeform: (where had mega-dinners in mp-grade restaurants for 2 for ~20$)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090951 << 'flashing the hodl' is at this pt prolly bad for one's health anywhere on planet3
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 15:26:08 phf: various hackers have shown me their android wallets/exchanges where they would have their mixture of "coin X i get from work" "coin Y i trade to make extra $200/mo" and "i also sometimes buy into my bitcoin hodl", but it's a poor form to show the hodl, or even imply how much (or how little)
adlai routinely gets questioned about being 'crypto millionaire', it is quite exhasperating
asciilifeform: wb adlai
asciilifeform: iirc adlai stepped in a gluetrap with the rosencrantz fella or what was his name
adlai: I am not, nor do I "live like", any sort of millionaire; yet almost everyone irl remembers that I'd mentioned bitcoin on and off in the past decade.
adlai: ... what?
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-01-07 11:02:09 adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-05#1004837 << indeed, first time I ever played Go against Meni Rosenfeld, he had said something like "it's not a game if there's no clock" about chess to the people who were there to play chess against him
phf: signpost: there's a lot of wins like that in ru. i mean if you're going there as an american tourist it's awesome
adlai: I actually almost went in to business with him, years ago
asciilifeform: adlai: right, and the vultures remember, presumably
signpost knows two folks that were exchange students in iirc st petersburg, spoke highly of it.
adlai: he had an idea for an AI-ish company, and wasn't going to found it alone, although was open to collaborating; then I went to the university instead.
verisimilitude: We almost went in to business, years ago, adlai.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-29 22:01:04 asciilifeform: well anywhere 'expensive' if yer broke; and conversely
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-29 22:04:36 asciilifeform: was never happier anywhere than in '17 in ro, but only brought enuff green for 2wks and after that had to go back to where one gets more
phf: signpost: you can do the whole mp style adventure, go to some dirt poor place, get the best of everything, etc.
asciilifeform: a++ if you've a bottomless sack of green
signpost: maybe in the 2030s, if everything settles.
adlai: verisimilitude: well, that would've probably remained a more conventional situation
adlai: iiuc, asciilifeform was referring to startups
asciilifeform: signpost: in 2030 likely ru/cn tourists w/ bottomless sacks of diff colour having ripper of a time in gringolandia
phf: friend of mine's favorite russia story: paid kalyanshik an equivalent of $50 to stay after hours and tend to his kalyan
asciilifeform: we used to have these in washingtonistan, but fell victim to crackdown on smoking
adlai: phf: what is 'kalyan' ?
phf: hookah
verisimilitude: So, how goes thy website, adlai?
signpost was a weirdo that had a hookah in his place in college. enjoyable ritual.
phf: signpost: it's a complete scene in russia. fully stripped of arab influence, it's basically an alternative to going to bars. and they pack it /excellent/, check on you every half hour, adjust as needed.
adlai: verisimilitude: badly; I've actually not added to it in about a year. I have accumulated typewritten pages recently, and at some point will need to setup some flow for scanning what I want to edit on a computer.
verisimilitude: Alright.
signpost: pretty cool. great for extended conversation.
phf: signpost: like this is a representative place https://yandex.ru/maps/org/dom_musye_lyo_kalyana/23406434368/gallery/
phf: yeah you can clock 3+/hours easy. order food delivery from nearby high end restaurants, they brew tea for you. i already miss it :D
adlai: signpost: 99% by volume of the hookah I've smoked in my life was when hosting Americans for whom hookah was part of the middle eastern experience and they wanted to experience the middle east, damnit
shinohai: My ex wife and I had a hookah before we got married, I called it the "steam roller" but it really resembled a samovar.
adlai: remaining 1% was a remarkably similar situation - friend from the military, quite non-arab, yet in the few times I went drinking with his friend group, it was always at places that had a hookah per table as part of the furnishings.
signpost: for me, was a refinement of the habit of sitting around a fire pit smoking cigarettes.
adlai: yeah, the nice ones look like elegant glass samovars
adlai: I find that the flavors of different shishas (the hebrew, possibly arabic, word for the hookah tobacco) are actually distinguishable
adlai: whereas different cigarettes are all the same asphixiating smoke, as far as my nose and tongue can discern.
signpost rolled own when he smoked. the mass produced coffin nails all taste like shit.
adlai: I had a nice long conversation about Russia, last time I was in the 'drunk tank'
adlai: the other inmates of cell were an old dude who spoke only yiddish, and an immigrant from russia
adlai: he did not have any good things to say about Israel, yet insisted that Russia was worse. declined to elaborate.
adlai: fellow had no local connections of any kind. got Israeli citizenship by being jewish, and was in the middle of military service.
adlai: if he plays his cards right, he can turn into a perfectly satisfied middle-class cog after military discharge
phf: cool story bro
adlai: welcome back to civilisation, phf !
phf: adlai: ty!
phf would like to know where civilization see so can come back to it
phf: *is
phf: the entire eastern corridor has turned to shit in the past three years. i honestly have no idea how ascii can live there
adlai: well, how about "welcome back to chatting on irc after such a long silence"
adlai: my little vacations are nothing compared to yours
signpost: phf: hard to say where better is at this point even within the US.
signpost: e.g. austin's brilliant solution to being overrun by homeless was to shove them into the surrounding woods.
signpost expects that'll be back on the streets in greater numbers before long.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 16:14:52 phf: would like to know where civilization see so can come back to it
signpost: california and pacnw are a zombie apocalypse.
billymg: signpost: when i was in austin an uber driver told me houston and dallas would load theirs onto busses and send them to austin
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091021 << like prolly almost anywhere in usa, 'livable' if you can muster the $$$ and terraform
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 16:16:41 phf: the entire eastern corridor has turned to shit in the past three years. i honestly have no idea how ascii can live there
billymg: knowing that austin would keep 'em
signpost: it's possible, though houston also has a huge amount of dirt-cheap housing.
signpost: and still has crackheads on the streets.
asciilifeform: over here no one interesting on street; but also not even close to 'dirt cheap' anyffin
adlai has no idea where Tel Aviv stashes its homeless population; most of my attempts at conversation with them fail, except for one guy, with whom if I start talking, I will literally have to tell him "ok, I am leaving now, if you keep talking, it will be to yourself" because he will simply launch into an interruptible monologue, stopping only to breath
adlai: talkative fellow actually has things to say; claims to have worked at various industrial plants when much younger, most of his rant consists of describing the various garbage he encounters. earns his food by collecting recyclables from trash cans.
asciilifeform encountered these in usa, tho not recently
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 16:06:17 adlai: the other inmates of cell were an old dude who spoke only yiddish, and an immigrant from russia
asciilifeform: merciless shithole..
adlai: he refuses charity, or at least, does not want it; seems to have entered some equilibrium where he works industriously enough at collecting recyclables, and avoids police by being sufficiently familiar with local neighbors to know where to park his shopping carts without getting complaints
adlai: I have no idea why the old guy was there!
adlai: he was incoherent. maybe even tried to speak hebrew, or russian, and simply sounded like yiddish by being so drunk.
signpost: maybe the pigs got tired of asking where to take him.
phf: signpost: a handful of people i know moved to austin, and it's the kind of people i'd rather not follow there. i guess it's a running joke at this point
signpost moved here in the "Leslie's running for mayor" era, long dead now.
signpost: inundated by tech bros and ilk.
signpost: Leslie was a famous local homeless guy who ran around in a banana hammock.
asciilifeform bought a deliberately unremarkable-looking house on a lot bordered by parks, in sparsely-inhabited outskirt of prev. locale, but not moved there yet, notenuff cycles
asciilifeform: currently having it set up for 'offgridism'
asciilifeform: & other useful, inconspicuous upgrades
phf: neat, is it further east?
asciilifeform: phf: nah, in shadow of umd
phf: aah
signpost: gun laws are pretty strict, I imagine.
asciilifeform: signpost: md is somewhere b/w tx and ny in fascism
signpost: can you at least paint your ceiling with an armed intruder?
signpost has the "no obligation to retreat" thing
asciilifeform: in principle. will likely cost you dough in practice
signpost: yeah, this everywhere in the states.
signpost: would have to deal with some liberal prosecutor.
asciilifeform: best defense in usa is generally 'camouflage'
asciilifeform: like anywhere else
signpost figures either ranch in central texas or land in rural NH within the next year or two.
signpost: just didn't want to have a housing market collapse mid-move.
signpost: iirc asciilifeform is going from renting to own, so less risk of this.
asciilifeform: still not 100% price-lockin given extortionate tax. but the latter at least increases at fixed, by statute, rate, traditionally
signpost: yep, as predictable as one can have here.
asciilifeform not under the delusion that box 'can be sold for megaprofit'
signpost: nah, you never get the equity back, just move it around.
asciilifeform: some folx buy into 'flip, profit' and then sad when lolno
adlai: out of curiosity, asciilifeform - off which grids does 'offgridism' imply in your lexicon?
signpost: had some luck with the current place, bought in apr 2020 at the height of plague fear.
phf: signpost: was that your first house?
adlai has encountered folx over the years with varying answers to this; typically some variation of power, water, internet
asciilifeform: adlai: well, gold standard is 'mars dome', lol. but can do mains current, at least, the photopanel+battery thing is ~inexpensive nao.
signpost: prior owners had trouble offloading their previous place in CO, ended up saying "uncle" and letting this thing go for cheap.
asciilifeform: 'offgrid internet' would require new things
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-28 16:28:19 asciilifeform: and pest's 'if you can decrypt it, it's for you' is pretty good fit for radioism.
asciilifeform: not costs much to drill well, but not sure whether'd want to drink from it here
signpost always dreams of a space station at L3. imagine the quiet.
phf: what's the point of off the grid if you can't build a family crypt in the basement catacombs
adlai: can't you get abysmally slow internet by using dialup over satellite phone?
asciilifeform: phf: in some locales can (and not even necessarily via 'not caught -- not thief') crypt; not tried tho
adlai has no idea what this would cost for any significant connection
asciilifeform: adlai: price sat phone sometime
asciilifeform: it aint 'off grid' either lol, sorta a contradiction in terms
asciilifeform: really errything on planet3 is 'on grid', just question of which grid
asciilifeform: ultimately in reich yer 'on grid' for so long as you've a postbox where tax bill etc
phf: adlai: real of the grid people either run pots or p-t-p microwave relay. i n the first case you invest in a "couple of miles" of copper to closest line, in the later your put a tower
adlai: right. 'off grid' for a net connection still involves significant infrastructure, a grid of its own, to enable the endpoint(s) to be free of any specific location.
signpost: in other plague stories, latest post-covid symptom is a sort of electric zap in the chest.
signpost: apparently possibly "intercostal neuralgia"
asciilifeform not contracted this yet
phf: lol are you counting your stigmatas?
asciilifeform: must be easter egg in the latest covid release
signpost: phf: when do I get a gaggle of devoted followers
phf: signpost: once you get your blue checkmark
adlai may have finally contracted one of these plagues... may have been regular flu. covid antigen test was negative, although maybe I was healthy by the time I tried it.
asciilifeform: phf: pots or mw relay very much 'grid', yer plugged into a sumthing km or 2 away
asciilifeform: 'off grid net' -- pirate shortwave.
signpost: phf: I said devoted. carried around in a palanquin at a minimum.
asciilifeform re 'grid', has no delusions that cardboard box is 'mars dome', but if californifuckistani-style 'rolling brownouts' will have problems paying bills, so genset + photocells + batteries etc
adlai: don't we have to wait a few hundred years after MP's death before officially starting the church?
adlai must admit having done some rereading of scripture lately
adlai: one of my neighbors has a cat that likes visiting my apartment. when it does not leave after a few minutes, I introduce it to human culture. so far, it appears tolerant of music, prose, and scripture, and only leaves voluntarily when alarmed by loud noises.
signpost was raised fundie as it gets, but maps 100% of current events onto unremarkable human failings.
adlai: the only notable consequence of my efforts is that I poked my head into James Joyce. I'm slightly surprised that I never read any of his work before, only various modern authors who were obviously influenced.
phf: signpost: i don't think two are at odds, between homer, bible and shakespear you basically cover the whole range of unremarkable human failings.
verisimilitude: I blame subversion.
signpost: phf: I could as easily say "whatever god is, I'm not mad at it for this".
signpost: and yep, bible's not a bad collection of these.
adlai: signpost: have you ever encountered "The Brights" ?
signpost: is this the idiot renaming of "atheist"?
adlai: it's yet another attempt to "herd cats"
adlai: there's some quote (maybe Dawkins?) about how organising atheists is like herding cats
signpost: there's nothing there aside "nuh uh." meanwhile discarding the basis of civilization.
adlai: for quite a while, I was a big fan of their definition, which was "having a worldview devoid of supernatural elements"
signpost is not impressed with any of the modern atheist talkers.
adlai: Dennett is the one whom I've found most readable.
phf: atheism is cringe
adlai: at some point I might try defining what my views are, although it [atheism] is definitely the easiest label to pick when the issue ever arises.
verisimilitude: Worshipping a false god is ``cringe'', phf.
verisimilitude: There's that George Carlin joke about sun worshipper, at least they can fucking see the sun.
signpost: Nietzsche's entire project was trying to reboot the cultural process of imagining the superlative man, and emulating him.
signpost does not see how civilization can exist without this, in whichever form works.
adlai: joking aside, I wonder whether -- and when -- some new grand cult will arise, that has a stronger technological focus.
signpost: heh, he talked at length about the will to technology too.
signpost oughta start writing some Nietzsche sermons sometime.
adlai: the two recent religious movements that have survived and blossomed seem to be mormonism and scientology; the former doesn't have much to do about new technologies, and the latter doesn't seem to rely on anything fundamentally technological, only to use technology for the ritual mystery
mats: define recent
adlai: all the various singularity / simulationism crap that verges upon spirituality is still quite solipsistic; some people might be fundamentalist about it, but it doesn't seem to be turning into a major religious movement
adlai: well, on a time scale where individual human generations are still visible, although nowhere near to being the dominating scale
PeterL: there are people who "believe in science" with a religious fervor
adlai: conventional semitic religions only convene the congregations once a week; smartphones can lead to a much more vicious groupthink
adlai: PeterL: in the scrollback, you were asking about common lisp vs scheme... did you get a satisfactory answer?
mats: theres a lot of new religions that have been commercially successful, from 7th day adventists to shinreikyo to falun gong
phf: signpost: i've maybe come to the same conclusion as you, that you can't have the civilization without the transcendental.
PeterL: adlai: do you have a better answer?
mats: mormons are probably the richest group i can think of tho, unless you consider the religions in china that are de facto under the thumb of the govt in beijing
mats: buddhism and all that shite collects an enormous sum of money from chumps every week
verisimilitude: I don't have a religion, so much as a loosely-organized cult with an egregore attached.
verisimilitude: Be I the only such person present?
adlai: PeterL: not really; I used to believe that the channel had a strong CL bias. I recommend CL for practical projects, and only learning Scheme if you are learning purely for an intellectual diversion and do not plan on writing or editing much practical code .
adlai: verisimilitude: define 'egregore' please?
mats: the nation of islam's relationship with technology is pretty interesting
mats: goofy eugenicism with black flavors, ufos and stuff, verisimilitude would love it
adlai makes mental note to disambiguate between "nation of islam" and "islamic state"... these names almost decompile to the same point of wordspace
mats: aum shinrikyo was famously tech oriented
PeterL: mormonism does include teaching strong financial fundementals (like avoiding debt), we wish we were all as rich as the Romneys
PeterL: adlai: I think that is a simmilar answer to what was said before, Scheme is prettier but CL is more pragmatically useful
verisimilitude: This link seems decent, adlai: https://theosophy.wiki/en/Egregore
adlai: there is one fundamental difference that imo makes Scheme useless as a language for thinking about actual processes, and only useful for reasoning about computations
adlai: in Scheme, symbols are simply variable names that get turned into pointers by the compiler, and they point to some value.
adlai: this seems fine, although in CL, the most common violation of that is that a symbol can be dereferenced separately as a value and as a function, symbols often name types and classes, and there are other namespaces
adlai: in the real world, or at least, in the literature that humans write about the real world, individual units of meaning (whether written words, spoken sounds, or even gestures and icons) have different meanings in different contexts. so I find that CL corresponds much more closely to thought processes, than Scheme.
adlai: that said, I've never used Scheme enough to have my unconscious mind talk to me in Scheme, so I do not have a fair comparison.
adlai: verisimilitude: the link describes what seem to me a rather diverse range of phenomena. would you include, for example, the process generating an IRC log under this umbrella?
verisimilitude: An egregore is similar to the concept of the hivemind.
verisimilitude: A bunch of people all fervently believe in and want something, and work towards it, possibly with minimal interaction.
adlai did not find explicitly stated requirements in the link that the collective process produce a unified single state of agreement
verisimilitude: Well, it's one possible result, anyway.
adlai: I guess it is the most common result
verisimilitude: Through it, I feel the closest thing to a religious fervor I've ever felt.
adlai: how's this definition: an egregore is the multiverse of myths in which archetypes interact with each other.
adlai: this leaves open the question of whether all the myths are logically consistent with other parallel myths.
adlai: perhaps I should finally read "The Golden Bough"; I actually own a dead-tree copy of this.
adlai: is the fervor you describe the kind of "something is wrong on the Internet" rage?
adlai: otherwise, I'm still failing to understand what you mean by this
verisimilitude: I don't want to elaborate too much.
verisimilitude: People like something, extrapolate it, and it goes from there.
adlai: etymology basically tells me that egregore means something that emerges from conversation.
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-24#1017064 << you'd find it /highly/ amusing but i wrote that :D
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-07-24 13:12:54 asciilifeform: for the l0gz, will preserve this lul : (some vermin, in response to verisimilitude's 'tried ada') : 'this is just larping though, I suspect most activities that you do can be glued together with a bunch of shell scripts, with roughly as much reliability requirements.'
phf: nothing like one of your own priests to write good heresy
phf: but i also stand by my words. it is larping, of the kind that you yourself often ranted against. using ada doesn't make you an avionics engineer, nor does it sprinkle your code with some magic of serious meaning
verisimilitude: Do something useful and revive the discussion, phf. It has been dormant for nearly one month.
verisimilitude: Controlling allocations is one component of reliable software, phf.
verisimilitude: A system can be reliable without it, but UNIX isn't such a system.
verisimilitude: For the particular program discussed then, an undo and redo system means unbounded allocations anyway, so it doesn't much matter, after a point.
PeterL: I would argue that Ada is much easier to read and understand than c, so if I had to choose between the two I would pick Ada
verisimilitude: Too many fools treat reliable programs as unobtainable, and even mock the idea.
crtdaydreams is unsure if signpost has seen my request for WoT keychange yet
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090680 << cool, you could always write an upload interface, that does whatever it needs to do, but also puts the vpatches into a publically available folder, that i could just scrape on a nightly cycle
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 10:15:21 whaack: phf: hey welcome back, i was toying around with the idea of making a vpatch hopper, the idea would be your site btcbase.org/patches , but with some irc interface so that anyone in WoT could update the site
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-11#1072388 << it works out of the box, non-static, maybe one or two changes. i've posted a patch to the old patches ml
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-11 11:24:06 asciilifeform: iirc there were attempts at 'unofficial' crapple port (phf?) but attempter broke teeth
phf: but "btcbase upload" again, it's just such an unpleasantly messy problem, which requires either a full power of managed interface, or some kind of command language, maybe a db. lots of state, lots of "if exist then otherwise".
asciilifeform: hm phf wainot a contraption similar to jurov's old one
asciilifeform: upload form, eats a patch and a sig, hardwired pubkeys
asciilifeform: (might want a sanity check where tries to press vpatch before interning tho)
phf: jurov's thing was for just trb though?
asciilifeform: indeed was. and only uploaded to ml, rather than a nifty graphical viewer
asciilifeform: but patch upload per se aint so hard
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091126 << i recall these, afaik they existed purely as a reactive ripple from '90s uptick of evangelism wankage
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 16:56:25 signpost: is not impressed with any of the modern atheist talkers.
asciilifeform: notice how sorta disappeared
phf: asciilifeform: i guess the fuck you we'll rewrite it in php approach of tmsr soured me on doing any kind of work that's not either paid or extremely fun :D writing web forms that spawn subprocesses and checks files and just generally /behaves/ rather than shitsall over itself on corner cases is the opposite of fun
asciilifeform: phf: undeniably it's an unsexy proggy. hence wai no one baked yet.
asciilifeform fwiw wrote a gpg verifier in '20; could in principle be turned into this
phf: and it can verify plain text pgp signatures?
asciilifeform: afaik in last rev. no longer shits self on corners either
asciilifeform: indeed does
asciilifeform: (is a bash condom on top of ffa)
asciilifeform: as of 20c, verifies clearsigns
asciilifeform: given payload , sig, & pubkey
phf: requires two parts: patch over peh to make it into loadable module you can ffi to, from lisp, and then rewrite to lisp. i've been meaning to do the first part..
asciilifeform: phf: theoretically oughta turn into a clean loadable, is statically linked etc
phf: yeap
asciilifeform: iirc someone ( adlai ? ) at one pt posted a pure cl gpg verifier
asciilifeform: but can't seem to dig up in l0g
adlai posted pure CL hash algos, does not recall doing gpg
asciilifeform: 'litmus' only uses ffa for the mod.exp so really is 2-3ln of cl
phf: another one of those "nice to have" projects is to do a key verify with ironclad, but man it's such a dull project
asciilifeform: likely would be easier to bake a reasonable mod exp in cl than to ffiize ffa
asciilifeform: could've sworn that this, exactly, was posted. but can't, grr, find
asciilifeform: ffaism for pubkey verification in a gpg substitute is kinda overkill imho, no particular reason for it to be const-cycle
asciilifeform posted it as moar of a practical demo than a necessary util
phf: i've written at some point a gossip client, in CWEB, that was literally slinging gpg packets, and the sanity check was parsing the incoming gpg data to make sure it's valid before handing it off to gnupg. it was very hairy, php circa 2017 code :>
phf: *phf, though php also fits
asciilifeform: i recall at least 1 other posted proggy in #t that fit this description ( some german fella )
phf: i think maybe it was to spec of the old mp spec?
asciilifeform: iirc was a python skin on gpg a la asciilifeform's vtron
asciilifeform to this day sitting on 3 finished (programwise) but unfinished in re text ffa ch's. notenuff cycles..
asciilifeform: the last mathematical piece, in particular: extended gcd
asciilifeform has what afaik is the only constanttime algo for it that doesn't impose nonsensical constraints on inputs
phf: asciilifeform: you need a very irreverent man to periodically call you names for you to release things on a schedule :p
asciilifeform sorta had 'wind taken from sails' in re ffa when realized that there's ~no chance of usefully realtime packet munging w/ it on any x86 irons
asciilifeform still intends to post the remainder , gpg does 'must die'
asciilifeform: is funny , afaik ffa's const.time barrett is to this day the only 1 published. but no one to date wrote in 'hey, that was useful on my micro..' or the like
asciilifeform: nobody detectably was missing one
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091134 << these are inherently unstable constructions; asciilifeform suspects that ones which emphasize working tech to any interesting degree simply dun live longenuff to be visible through telescope at all
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 17:04:26 adlai: joking aside, I wonder whether -- and when -- some new grand cult will arise, that has a stronger technological focus.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-17 14:19:24 asciilifeform: thinkin' about it in depth -- the weakness of cults aint that they're not an effective form of organization, from pov of command vertical. rather effective. the weakness is that even nominally clever fuhrer is stuck ordering disciples to do stupid shit, to 'show devotion'. whether it's self-flagellation, 'mortification of flesh', or using mysql, php, etc. the pathology is ultimately same.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091145 << yep, entirely aside whether "true". not that I'm implying I hold the cynical view.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 17:11:00 phf: signpost: i've maybe come to the same conclusion as you, that you can't have the civilization without the transcendental.
signpost: that certain folks holding certain books survived where others fell is true in its own sense, anyway.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091203 << both symptomatic of the cultural process of meaning having broken, first one yielding to next, yes.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 18:35:45 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091126 << i recall these, afaik they existed purely as a reactive ripple from '90s uptick of evangelism wankage
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091191 << forgot, will get to it later today or tomorrow.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 18:03:27 crtdaydreams: is unsure if signpost has seen my request for WoT keychange yet
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 17:46:43 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-24#1017064 << you'd find it /highly/ amusing but i wrote that :D
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091163 << lol, nuffin keeps you from having shadowed symbols in scheme. if anyffing is much easier in a lisp1 than a lisp2
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 17:25:37 adlai: in the real world, or at least, in the literature that humans write about the real world, individual units of meaning (whether written words, spoken sounds, or even gestures and icons) have different meanings in different contexts. so I find that CL corresponds much more closely to thought processes, than Scheme.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091206 << mp's preoccupation with PHP is the same as with his "lick the toilet, bitch".
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 18:35:57 phf: asciilifeform: i guess the fuck you we'll rewrite it in php approach of tmsr soured me on doing any kind of work that's not either paid or extremely fun :D writing web forms that spawn subprocesses and checks files and just generally /behaves/ rather than shitsall over itself on corner cases is the opposite of fun
asciilifeform: imho very similar (see earlier logptr)
asciilifeform: 'jump through this burning ring nao'
signpost: call one man the root of meaning and he just makes everything mean suck his dick.
signpost learned this, if anything, from the episode.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff process doesn't even require a narcissist; by some accts e.g. stalin wasn't, but ended up surrounded by militant cocksuckers anyway
signpost: yep, bad algo no matter who's in the chair.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091184 << worse than this , programming a computer doesn't even always make you have programmed a computer (i.e. automated a work), often enuff all you've done is to have baked yet anuther pseudo-mechanism that req's babysitting
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 17:52:13 phf: but i also stand by my words. it is larping, of the kind that you yourself often ranted against. using ada doesn't make you an avionics engineer, nor does it sprinkle your code with some magic of serious meaning
asciilifeform fwiw has seen some commercial adaism, and all of it had an overwhelming diana flavour. what in cl world was once called 'writing fortran in lisp'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-27 10:53:27 asciilifeform: such folx have precisely 1 approach to solving technical problems; and this approach is amply illustrated on diana's www
asciilifeform: you dun win anyffin from writing proggy nominally 'in ada' but w/ all the pointeristic barf prohibitions switched off, or if you litter it w/ oopism & other knobs in the standard which req the massive runtime.
asciilifeform: phf's darker implication might be 'even if you write a correct and readable proggy, yer still 'larp' given that no one needs a program at all. go write a tractor instead' tho
phf: ^
phf: i was just typing as much
verisimilitude: That's very insightful. I guess I'll go kill myself now.
asciilifeform puts on wagner
phf: lol
asciilifeform: on rare occasion one can write a proggy that actually tractors in some interesting & novel way , however
asciilifeform: e.g. thimbronion's pestron imho
asciilifeform: or orig btc
phf: asciilifeform: doesn't need to be this dark, /someone/ needs a program, but most programming is a compulsive behavior anyway. the trick is to channel it into useful direcmztion
asciilifeform: pgp. etc
phf: *direction
verisimilitude: The word ``tractor'' isn't a verb.
signpost: that's the trick with every damned thing with humans.
phf: this is not some profound philosophical point god damn it. i'm saying that if you're just playing with concepts, who cares if its ada, or you wrote it in pascal on a piece of paper. or in php. but making it seem like you're writing avionics when you're writing a toy is masturbation
asciilifeform: is writing an avionics masturbatory if you've no plane ?
asciilifeform: ( iirc someone in #t actually admitted to doing precisely this )
phf: after 5 years of tmsr, resounding yes :D
verisimilitude: I already have a project named ``masturbation''.
asciilifeform: then suppose you've bought the plane.
phf: asciilifeform: then it's post factum rationalization of clinical behavior
asciilifeform doesn't regret 'wasting' the cycles to derive a closed form rsa. even if never 'buys the plane'
verisimilitude: I can either spend my spare thought on programming and language topics, or become a serial killer or something.
phf: asciilifeform: nor i my own projects. i'm not even trying to be so categorical. but you know how americans skii right? they go online and research the best skiis first! and then best shoes! and then only the most professional of shoes work! and then best pants! and then on reddit have fights over the best pants, etc.
asciilifeform: for instance, if not had done this, would then have tried 'pest w/ rsa' and ended up either rationalizing away the aspect where enemy can trivially derive yer privkey from processing delays, or (as would hope) trying then to convince folx not to use it
asciilifeform: phf: 'ricers' aha
phf: there's a new zoomer term for it, funkopop collectors
asciilifeform: erry gen will prolly have own name for the sin
phf: at least ricers have real cars that they sometimes drive
asciilifeform once made mistake of asking a serious vintage car fella 'when and where do you drive these'
asciilifeform: 'in arizona, in '10, took it on a flatbed...' then bows head
signpost drove an 87 300zx til the thing disintegrated.
signpost: the behavior being described comes as kind of fear.
signpost: ever-preparing, adorning oneself with the amulets needed for the journey that ain't ever happening.
asciilifeform: can make a defensible arg that e.g. deriving a closed form rsa is exactly same thing as spending 3y on reddit or in front of tv. in asciilifeform's value system however not. this, may suppose, makes him 'religious' if you like.
signpost: nah, not same thing at all. this is like actually working on the car, driving it 135mph, finding out it starts wanting to lift nose-up after that.
asciilifeform: i.e. asciilifeform will stand with fewer regrets in front of firing squad after having done former vs latter. i.e. 'religion'
signpost wants to add more to the larping thread, but will have to do so later.
asciilifeform: no hurry
phf: every time i log in into wintermute it's like the scene from robin hood where he comes back from the crusades. "master robin, is that you??"
asciilifeform: phf: re 'do what actually pays, instead of larp' -- in '20 asciilifeform went heavily into commercial mode, nao digging in 2 salt mines simult. but not has so much to show for this, not any closer to 'rich' unsurprisingly
asciilifeform: no one 'gets rich' on wage work, newz at 11
asciilifeform: 'less poor' is best that can be done with it.
asciilifeform funnily enuff landed most recent coupla gigs as result of folx reading his www. and most recently ffa series.
asciilifeform: so border b/w 'larp' and commercials is not so clear.
asciilifeform: not, of course, to imply that anyone is using asciilifeform's pubs commercially, afaik. satan forbid.
mats: I hear that ffa things are the new hotness
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-28 13:37:30 zx2c4: asciilifeform: at the beginning much more than now. in the early days, vpn companies thought it was a good marketing thing to do. now that's mostly passed and things are a lot tougher. your loper-os.org blurb seems to have some truth in it in my experience
verisimilitude: I don't understand the joke.
mats: this was like three or four years ago
phf: asciilifeform: i think rich and poor was never the problem. the aim was really to create a closed economic system. the amish have it, the hassidim have it, the various "families" have it, etc.
asciilifeform: phf: prolly not compat. w/ 'rootless cosmopolitan' folx, sadly
verisimilitude: Furries do it, to an extent.
asciilifeform recalls endless orlov's pieces re subj. even has dead tree compendium of'em somewhere
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: furries have own farms, banks, etc. ??
verisimilitude: Well, not banks, and they don't use farms for the same things.
asciilifeform: lol, they live on sunlight?
verisimilitude: Does asciilifeform know what a furry is?
asciilifeform: ithinkso
asciilifeform: folx who dress in animal skins , 'fuck like tiger!' etc neh
verisimilitude: By ``they don't use farms for the same things'', I was implying they mostly want to fuck the animals.
asciilifeform: aware that they exist, but afaik the only 'own economy' they've got is dedicated porn wwws
mats: Conventions must be terrible for people with allergies
asciilifeform: afaik they usually wear synthetic furs
mats: Still can't believe how many Americans have carpets in their homes on every surface
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: afaik most 'furry' aint proper zoophiles tho
mats: Absolutely filthy beast people
asciilifeform could be mistaken
asciilifeform: mats: asciilifeform had to search far & wide when switching pads to find w/out the carpet nonsense
mats: Synthetic or not, collects enormous quantities of crap
verisimilitude: Anyway, yes, they've ``dedicated porn wwws'', which is like a closed economy, as much of one as I'm aware any rootless cosmopolitans have.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: this aint what phf was discussing tho. was re folx w/ ~actual~ closed loops, amish, raskolniks, etc
asciilifeform: i.e. who can eat w/out ever (or, at least, often) meeting a heathen
phf: asciilifeform: well, that's my "end of tmsr" take, really when the needs of the republic started conflicting with the needs of the individuals, without republic giving any promise of satisfying those needs... etc. etc. bb living in butt fuck nowhere off mp's pitance, while mp posting pictures of lavish dinners.
mats: Add in pets, more than two occupants (some with long headhairs and body hair), regular wildfires, usual urban pollution
asciilifeform: phf: aha. will sign under this.
asciilifeform: ( as did naggum )
phf: asciilifeform: but never the less the problem stands. you either write code for the reich (day job), or you write code because that's how you jerk off. from that perspective ada or php make no difference
verisimilitude: I find that foolish thinking.
asciilifeform: phf: even from most spartan commercial pov, there's the nuance that clients actually aint entirely indifferent to how you jerk off
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 19:27:28 asciilifeform: funnily enuff landed most recent coupla gigs as result of folx reading his www. and most recently ffa series.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 19:17:43 asciilifeform: can make a defensible arg that e.g. deriving a closed form rsa is exactly same thing as spending 3y on reddit or in front of tv. in asciilifeform's value system however not. this, may suppose, makes him 'religious' if you like.
asciilifeform: in fact, funnily enuff, erry asciilifeform contract successively has been w/ sumbody who had read moar of asciilifeform's www than prev.
asciilifeform: where this series converges -- nfi
phf: asciilifeform: well, yeah, but then your blog is basically like those indian EEs with mit degrees that post their side projects, so they look better when joining microsoft
asciilifeform: phf: somehow 0 indians at that particular shop. w/ snore blogs or otherwise
asciilifeform: if in pov phf asciilifeform's materials not actually distinguishable from ee indian's, aint aboutta try to argue
phf: asciilifeform: oh pish posh, no need to be so sensitive, i value your skill highly. i'm giving an analogy to make a point!
phf: and i'm not planning on defending this position too strongly, i like to write programs also, and i benefit from being obsessive about it, and i also wouldn't enjoy if somebody were tell me "why you even do this!"
asciilifeform: i thought thrd was re 'is it actually useful to write programs' which is a 100% legit q
asciilifeform: there's an entirely defensible arg that it almost never is
asciilifeform: simply, noting that asciilifeform in fact running good % of budget on accidental exhaust gas of writing.
asciilifeform: and even that not always doing so puts you in company of indians (proverbial or otherwise), sometimes entire battalion of folx who actually did sumthing at least vaguely interesting on own will.
asciilifeform: ( in this particular , 'interesting' in industry that asciilifeform not finds very interesting, but this aint the industry's fault )
verisimilitude: It sickens me, when the people around me look at my work from a purely economic perspective, phf. Such thinking taints the blood, and such blood taints the brain.
asciilifeform: phf: imho 'why you even do this' is a 100% solid q . and if no one asks it, and for long enuff time, folx end up napoleoning in asylum
verisimilitude: There are deities I'd rather worship than Moloch.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: tbf we still dun know ( verisimilitude holds cards close to chest ) how verisimilitude dodges moloch draft so well
verisimilitude: My programs exist solely for me, and everyone else is merely given access to them.
verisimilitude: That's fair.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform -- programs (well, moar often fixes) for dough.
asciilifeform: iirc most of the folx here do, or once did.
mats: my bet is an inheritance
asciilifeform: mats: fwiw asciilifeform's guess was terrydavis pension, lol. but we won't know unless fella spills
phf: asciilifeform: at some point everything we did in tmsr was a kind of force multiplier: logger quotes things, paste server talks to authentication server, there's a coin machine, there's lightweight processes for doing things
asciilifeform: ftr asciilifeform aint got either. so, works for dough.
phf: i still marvel, when i have to talk to various ugh groups, at how backwards and primitive they are. despite shiny iphone tech or whatever.
asciilifeform: aaha, is interesting how ~nobody even has a reliably logged chat
asciilifeform: (unless sits on some aol-like commercial horror)
mats: discord has eaten a lot of communities
phf: every tried searching through telegram? why is such a point. i literally export things from telega and import to btcbase local copy to search stuff
phf: *ever
mats: i also export from discord so its actually searchable
mats: so dumb
asciilifeform: phf: commercial chats are a hilarious dysfunction zoo aha
phf: asciilifeform: so that's to some extent useful code, which was also written to high standard. there was a sweet spot before we went all avionics engineers when it was a combo of quality code, produced fast to solve problems
asciilifeform: phf: imho general tendency of field tho is opposite, 'fuck, write it in 1d, will throw away anyway' resulting in ~0 usefully reusable anyffin
asciilifeform: rather than 'avionics'
asciilifeform: if even 1 in 10 folx erred in direction of 'avionics w/out plane' there'd be over9000x less breakage & ex-programmers looking to buy amish farms
verisimilitude: s/less/fewer/
asciilifeform: supposing actual honest effort, rather than 'avionics flavour spray', that is
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: less breakage, fewer ex--..
phf: asciilifeform: hmm, we've diverged on priors at this point :D
asciilifeform: not sure where
asciilifeform: per asciilifeform , software is a 'failed field' largely because ~nobody bothers to actually do a thorough job of ~anything at all. (and not only from lack of commercial incentive). but this aint a seekrit.
phf: asciilifeform: i think software is a failed field because it lacks meaningful application, which runs downstream from failed society
verisimilitude: Software is used well to stunt the citizenry.
asciilifeform: why then fails (a la boeing) even where application is entirely clear ?
verisimilitude: Even the good avionics software has flaws, because there's no incentive to hunt down each one.
asciilifeform: there's an aspect to 'failure of society' where various dregs who oughta be pulling barges by hand shuffled into programming. but this is rather separate from 'there is no meaningful application to program'
verisimilitude: I blame large businesses.
asciilifeform: the meaningful applications still there, but succumbing under pressure to employ 'indians'
asciilifeform: (and once 'colonized', become fungally inhospitable to anybody else)
verisimilitude: More generally, a capitalist eventually realizes he doesn't need to sell a working product to make money, so why would he?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in the end yes
phf: asciilifeform: it's a valid point, which i need to think about, but my sort of immediate response is that genuine application gets overwhelmed by overal failure.
asciilifeform: in the end -- does
verisimilitude: Notice this didn't happen when computers were being sold to replace human processes.
asciilifeform: for instance as i understand naodays doesn't much matter whether boeing's comps crash
asciilifeform: if they aint flying
phf: asciilifeform: like the ee people complaining about all the recent grads reaching for arduino when they need to solve simple circuit problem
verisimilitude: The hardware failsafes are part of why there's no incentive to hunt down each flaw, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: phf: they complain and then carry right on filling class w/ indians and teaching 'matlab' button press sequences as 'engineering'
crtdaydreams: logs good reading today :)
asciilifeform: but larger point, dun matter whether have 3 tandem cpu and provably correct avionics stack, or hemp ropes like wright brothers, if the failed society doesn't in fact need (or can afford) airplane in any kinda mass
asciilifeform: then becomes like in 1900 matter for individual flyer, if any exist
asciilifeform: i.e. decommercialized .
verisimilitude: Sure, but without them, there won't be any.
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091249 << many thank. just needed confirmation it'd been received. paste.deedbot.org is limited lifespan, yes?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 18:56:54 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091191 << forgot, will get to it later today or tomorrow.
verisimilitude: Most people would just have sex and take soma all day, if they were allowed.
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's pov, many aspects of computation have reached this point. i.e. you can't 'dload on srcforge' anyffin resembling actual cryptoroutines.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-01-21 16:37:28 asciilifeform: as for encryption -- 99+% of what's 'out there' in the sense of 'readable by plebe armed w/ google' was written specifically to ensure that actual crypto aint there when you in fact do need it.
crtdaydreams: rot13 is all i need
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: while somebody keeps lights on, yes
phf: asciilifeform: easiest crypto is to mail somebody a clone of ssd with random bits on it, and then one time pad it for a lifetime of alice to bob communication
asciilifeform: phf: easy if you've a fast trng
verisimilitude: Yes, just between Alice, Bob, and the mail system.
asciilifeform: otherwise either will sit for rather long time to fill it, or exercise in prng delusion
asciilifeform: (if latter -- many less sweaty faux cryptos to choose from)
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'mail' dunhaveto mean usps. can be diplo pouch or inside yer shoe etc
asciilifeform presumed in that sense
verisimilitude: It's an important detail.
asciilifeform recalls multiple yrs of back-n-forth gpgrams w/ mp trying to 'sell' him on iron otp...
verisimilitude: There's also the matter of verifying the message. I still like my method.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: can think of over9000 methods, which consume varyings qtys of pad, but generally not hard
asciilifeform: there's an ancient arg, which i suspect phf was alluding to, that 'if you think you need adult crypto, 8999 of 9000 chance yer a sad larper' and it seems impossible to refute, but then remember that bitcoin exists and in fact as sensitive to the given problems as anyffin in 'adult' spy biz and genuinely makes a diff on own skin.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
phf: asciilifeform: yes thank you for making my points for me :)
asciilifeform: i.e. is 1 of those very same 'meaningful applications' for which would be notbad to have actual quality mechanisms
zx2c4: phf: it's funny to me how internet crazies are always so attracted to "The Holy One Time Pad". I guess because it's simple enough that they can understand it and offers "information theoretic security".
asciilifeform: phf: pretty sure i get phf's pt and for most part not disagree..
asciilifeform: zx2c4: dun recall whether you were there for the thread where mp revealed that doesn't in fact grasp the (not complicated) proof re otp
asciilifeform: where 'promised to break if bias in plaintext'
zx2c4: phf: but back on planet reality... chacha20 is fine...
zx2c4: asciilifeform: haha really? no i dont remember that
phf: zx2c4: can you restate my point to me so that i make sure you understand it, because i'm pretty sure you don't, and arguing something else entirely.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-02-06 mircea_popescu: long, deeply biased plaintexts are dangerous for otp.
zx2c4: phf: i just read you saying, "asciilifeform: easiest crypto is to mail somebody a clone of ssd with random bits on it, and then one time pad it for a lifetime of alice to bob communication" and was idly musing how various internet types tend to think this is The Ultimate Way that all crypto should aspire to
asciilifeform: zx2c4: generally in softwarism just about any idiocy 'is fine' if the value of you & yer cargo is ~0
asciilifeform: and the proggy is in fact part of some kinda tea ceremony.
phf: zx2c4: ok, well, so that there's no misunderstanding this is not what i'm talking about
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091450 << yeah i believe we're on the same page. i mean to some extent tmsr was an attempt to figure out this problem. "i'm a programmer, what shape should my amish community take so that my skill is a force multiplier" :D
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 20:17:02 asciilifeform: phf: pretty sure i get phf's pt and for most part not disagree..
crtdaydreams: happy fools, ya april!
verisimilitude: I'm not an expert, zx2c4, but the OTP is the only unbreakable encryption mechanism, so what's so bad about acknowledging that?
zx2c4: nothing? rather, I'm amused about those who fetishize it
asciilifeform: there's old joak where frogs hire a consultant, to tell'em 'how do we avoid being eaten'. owl consultant goes to desk, thinks, next day comes back w/ fat bill and answer. 'become hedgehogs'. frogs: 'how do we become hedgehogs?' owl -- 'i'm a strategic consultant, not a tactical one'
verisimilitude: Well, ``OTP rule 34'' means something entirely different.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it's worth to remember that to actually make otp live up to shannon's proof of 'unbreakable' takes mechanisms that aint avail. to typical redditard. (and, not unimportantly, meticulousness that is even less avail. to him)
asciilifeform: (and then to remember that same thing applies to all other cipherisms similarly)
asciilifeform: hence wai attractive to 'fetishists', for whom there is no anticipation of actually ~doing~ it, or staking any actual stakes on it, so the 'conceptual' is unblemishedly sexy
asciilifeform: same folx go in for e.g. haskellism, because 'sexy' when you dun have to actually write programs in it
asciilifeform: and many other similar 'sexies'
asciilifeform: iirc there was at one time in #t even a thrd about pistols, where folx who actually gotta carry'em erryday, allday, prefer very diff. ones from typical 'enthusiast' who keeps in safe and takes out on weekends
asciilifeform: from an 'amish' pov, not only is e.g. 'pest' a waste of perfectly good joules, but even airplane. in fact most of 20th c. is 'waste'. and good % of 19th.
asciilifeform: from that pov asciilifeform doesn't much care to 'become hedgehog', even if get to a pt where nuffin other than a hedgehog can live.
asciilifeform: the monkeys can have their planet then, or the cockroaches, etc
asciilifeform: in actual practice, however, the folx w/ working airplanes, radios, ciphers, etc. reliably make ground beef outta folx w/out.
asciilifeform: and expect this'll continue.
asciilifeform: and has implications on small as well as large scale.
asciilifeform: e.g. folx who had btc in 2010s, and haven't parked it on mswin, moar likely still have theirs.
asciilifeform: this on premise that 'still having it' in fact is 'force multiplier'. which presently -- yes
asciilifeform: from this by implication certain other aspects of kompyooting, in fact 'force multiply'.
asciilifeform: i.e. matters what yer doing, with what.
phf: lots of unexplored subjects :)
verisimilitude: Care to comment on Elision, phf?
phf: zx2c4: to clarify the point i was making was that dearth of crypto is not a deterrent to someone with a true need, that is all. and ascii got it
phf: crypto is downstream from opsec anyway, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090940 like in an earlier anecdote
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 15:18:00 phf: there's a handful of famous (second hand, i've never pursued, but "everyone knows") of some loud mouth hodl personality get robbed at gun point for coins
phf: verisimilitude: i've read it before, it's a cool scifi story without code. seems like something straightforward to hack in lisp and then wire into your emacs irc client to demo it. or produce a handful of texts using elison prototypes?
phf: i once got really high and was riffing a scifi story to a group of friends, where you have these ais that encode your communication style and manersisms and such. but you program them using piano keyboards. the aristocracy of the future compose write love letters and make public speaches by composing the sentiment, "playing the ai". of course it's all done because of the very limited bandwidth of interplanetary communication. you
phf: deliver your ai imprint by slower-than-light travel, and then you can do telepresence at senate from across the galaxy
phf: the chemicals echanced the impact of the story, it was a pretty fun trip :)
verisimilitude: That's part of the overall idea: Increase the utility of the network by aggressively decreasing the size of the data.
phf: i assume something like japanese input was at least part of your inspiration
verisimilitude: It's also much more efficient to process.
verisimilitude: I thought about why we represent text character-by-character, and realized it was stupid. That's it.
phf: verisimilitude: would it be much different than running a bible through inflate, then pre-sharing the dictionary?
verisimilitude: Rephrase that.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 21:10:27 phf: the chemicals echanced the impact of the story, it was a pretty fun trip :)
asciilifeform dug up by google, 'pogrtwem', which lulzily autocorrected to 'pogrom'
phf: verisimilitude: there's a class of compression algorithms called dictionary coders. you compress by building a dictionary of sequences that are then referenced from the compressed part. a variation pre-builds a static dictionary by compressing a bunch of reference material, and then reuse the static dictionary on new data from same class
phf: e.g. compress shakespear, and then use that same dictionary to compress any other english text
verisimilitude: There are important differences.
asciilifeform: ... or the '90s pasttime where feed rng into the decompressor & get 'shannonized' shakspear
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-25 13:26:38 verisimilitude: Consider the problem of searching from one point to another, forwards or backwards, for the first word beginning with some specified letters. Let me know when to share my solution.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-25 22:16:35 verisimilitude: I'll just reveal mine answer now.
verisimilitude: I notice a message of mine was cut brief.
asciilifeform: 'how to find one's keys?' 'reach into pocket' 'but they aint in pocket' 'wtf is wrong with you, keys always in left pocket'
verisimilitude: This is power, turning figuring on words into figuring on symbolic, bounded integers.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what do you get outta pretending that the cost of the scheme is 0 ?
asciilifeform: (it's a rather straight 'robbery of peter to pay paul')
verisimilitude: I'll prove my method, asciilifeform.
verisimilitude: I won't give up on it.
asciilifeform: nobody demanded taht verisimilitude 'give up' lol
verisimilitude: I've analogies I can give on this as well.
asciilifeform: simply that the scheme has substantial cost. and very few likely would want to pay it if in a position where must decide
verisimilitude: To the C language programmer, calculating a string's length and storing it before it be needed, as all decent languages do, may well be considered cheating.
verisimilitude: Most people be in no position to judge the cost of anything.
verisimilitude: To most people, garbage collection is an unbearable cost, and yet fixing memory errors aren't.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: still waiting to hear a plausible explanation for wai in yer scheme the dict won't look like jp unicode (what with over9000 hieroglyphs that were 'somebody's family name')
verisimilitude: Furthermore, it helps to bind a domain. An Elision targeting one language won't be tricked with words from another.
verisimilitude: Oh, it may, to some extent.
asciilifeform: 1 answer can be 'be a swede, and yer name is from this-here list of 300 names' but what if you aint a swede..?
asciilifeform: and dun want ?
verisimilitude: There's always an escape hatch in the form of the auxiliary dictionary.
asciilifeform: and nao most of e.g. asciilifeform's log lns take 2-3x the space because embed aux dict entries. win?
verisimilitude: Hey, asciilifeform, how can I code buffer overflows in Common Lisp, for when I want that kind of thing?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: why substitute concepts and propose that to speak nonstandard word is equiv to 'buffer overflow' ..?
verisimilitude: Well, Elision is intended for someone who uses language properly, so don't use it is the only answer there.
asciilifeform: so we have it then there. 'be a swede'
asciilifeform: 'dun wanna'
asciilifeform: 'fuckyou'
asciilifeform: not much of a persuasion neh
phf: i'm sorry but i'm failing to see the difference between lz77 family, your dictionary is a sorted binary tree of some sort?
verisimilitude: It's not a tree.
asciilifeform: phf: his scheme needs a standard dict. e.g. 'midi for human lang'
verisimilitude: While but a toy, look at The only prototype. for some basic ideas.
asciilifeform: ( why btw do we need symphony orchestras if have midi synth , surprised that verisimilitude not asked this mega-q )
verisimilitude: Elision isn't the total answer.
asciilifeform: or why vocoder not replaced all singing..
asciilifeform: (maybe not erryone wants?)
verisimilitude: I'm disgusted by the idea of fixed character sets in general.
asciilifeform: ... but not fixed wordsets?!
verisimilitude: I should be able to add my symbols.
verisimilitude: Again, there's always an escape hatch in the form of the auxiliary dictionary.
asciilifeform: recall what 'embeddable fonts' got us in wwwliquishitronics
asciilifeform: (nao erry 2bit fishwrap embeds MB of font, lol)
phf: verisimilitude: but do you understand how lz77 family works?
verisimilitude: It's conceivable that asciilifeform could have his auxiliary dictionary for his writing, but it's not a good idea on the level of individual IRC messages, no.
verisimilitude: I probably know the gist, but I'd need to review.
verisimilitude: However, this goes further than compression.
verisimilitude: Imagine a program, phf, which can be asked questions about language, and which can't be tricked, for it knows the valid language and what isn't.
asciilifeform: aka spellchecker?
phf: man's riffing, let him be :)
asciilifeform: ( surely verisimilitude had sumthing moar interesting in mind )
verisimilitude: A spellchecker ``falls out'' of this design, along with other things.
verisimilitude: Most interesting is the Latin, phf, which is very regular.
verisimilitude: Consider storing the text as words, and the words as base words and declension or conjugation codes.
verisimilitude: The only reason I've not yet started is because I know my Latin is too immature.
phf: or sanscrit, they both tend to be "regular" because regularized and then sealed
verisimilitude: There's value in this, even if I be the only user.
asciilifeform: lojbanization is nearing 80y.o. at this pt, but somehow not 'wins' afaik anywhere
asciilifeform: worth to ask wainot
verisimilitude: Lisp is nearing seventy years old at this point, but somehow doesn't win in the hearts of men.
asciilifeform: lojban makes lisp look like 'the wheel' tho, in re wins
verisimilitude: The answer, asciilifeform, is most people are dipshits.
asciilifeform: this -- solvable, target audience where not dipshits. but even there not wins.
verisimilitude: Yes, such as by targeting Latin.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: are you familiar with most successful 20th c conlang ?
asciilifeform: adlai's
verisimilitude: It's Esperanto.
asciilifeform: moar modern hebrew speakers afaik 10x than esperantists
verisimilitude: Now, sure.
asciilifeform: but recall how it went ? do they speak biblical hebrew in israel ? why not
verisimilitude: I don't know.
asciilifeform: under field conditions, the irregularisms leak right back in, because the lojbanist model of language aint actually complete
asciilifeform: not even because 'people dipshits'
verisimilitude: Also, phf, obsessing over this has led me to a neat style of programming.
asciilifeform: ( esperanto also illustrative, what the esperantists speak aint quite what is in the spec . )
verisimilitude: I'm building something for people who speak language properly.
verisimilitude: Regardless, my design can accomodate quite a bit.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there's an ukr joak, 'one ukr -- is a fine fella. two ukrs -- best buds. three ukrs -- is a partizan brigade with a traitor'
phf: but can your compu-ter recite pushkin, monsegnor verisimilitude?
verisimilitude: But, sure, after a point, only character-by-character methods work well. After a point, using character-by-character methods don't work well for modelling graffiti, either.
verisimilitude: At the very least, it would be a higher-level archival method.
verisimilitude: It could, conceivably, be used to improve such things, phf.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: already nothing stops folx from archiving w/ e.g. lzw, and carrying the dictionary. but iirc you want a standard one. i.e. to procrust language into an lzw dict.
verisimilitude: I've a dream, a dream of my computer greeting me ``SALVĒ, DOMINE''.
asciilifeform: not erryone finds this procrustism appealing. and not 'because dipshit'
asciilifeform: can do this nao neh.
verisimilitude: Sure, but not well.
verisimilitude: There's no point in discussing this further. I want to make more progress first.
asciilifeform: by all means makeprogress
verisimilitude: Oh, one other thing, are we aware of the Robot 9000 algorithm?
verisimilitude: The idea is to make a forum more interesting, by preventing exact copies of prior messages from being sent.
asciilifeform: i'ma guess this resulted in spam where sequential nonce or rng appended ?
verisimilitude: Usually, people thwart it by adding a new word, yes.
asciilifeform: moar interesting would've been to mandate that a new msg compresses poorly against set of prev msgs
verisimilitude: However, it could be slightly improved by Elision, by only counting words in the primary dictionary.
asciilifeform: (for some defined threshold)
asciilifeform: this'd nail people for quoting reply text tho
verisimilitude: Once a suitably large subset of a language be known, there are interesting things which become possible with a whitelist.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: as described above, this scheme doesn't require an apriori dictionary
verisimilitude: It doesn't, no.
asciilifeform: and aint clear how having apriori dict makes it moar effective or the result moar interesting
asciilifeform: so you only count words in dict. so spammer only uses these. where's the win?
verisimilitude: Well, to be fair, it would mostly result in people adding words, rather than garbage, so it doesn't, no.
verisimilitude: Still, I can foresee similar such situations in which it may be more useful.
asciilifeform: it's trivially gamed, no matter how you arrange it
asciilifeform: precisely as bayesian spamfiltrators were gamed
verisimilitude: Yes, but I've a dearth of similar such examples on which to apply Elision.
verisimilitude: Anyway, I'll leave it at that.
asciilifeform: the way to 'keep out morons' is not to live in anonysoup to start with
asciilifeform: and not only because 'can kick'em', but because soup ~attracts~ morons
asciilifeform not yet encountered this shangri-la verisimilitude spoke of, where anonymous toilet somehow ~not~ packed to the gunwales with liquishit in which impossible to discern anyffin interesting even if were intent on trying
verisimilitude: Does asciilifeform want a link to one?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: sure
verisimilitude: This is one of them, and is my personal little space.
asciilifeform: loox to be a pseudonymous rather than anon forum tho
asciilifeform: various people w/ nicks
verisimilitude: The names are automatically assigned randomly.
verisimilitude: It just looks like that.
asciilifeform: 100% randomly ? i.e. 'xerxes' and 'delilah' come outta rng errytime ?
verisimilitude: The intent is to make someone actually using a name harder to notice.
verisimilitude: No, from a set.
verisimilitude: I added many programmer's names to the set, also.
asciilifeform stabbed randomly at the thing and found e.g. this, where 'Ada didn't have a way to provide the memory safety guarantees Rust has until June 2018. And if you take a look at what AdaCore did about that you'll realize they just copied Rust's CREW/borrowing model.' rly is mega-intelligent & informed discussion nao ?
asciilifeform: at least it aint straight viagraspam. so that's sumthing
asciilifeform: but so far not impressed otherwise
verisimilitude: Is every line here great?
asciilifeform: not for asciilifeform to say, lol
verisimilitude: Do know I started the Ada thread. Absolutely no one even mentioned it, until I did.
asciilifeform: aha, here is apparently verisimilitude
verisimilitude: I greatly enjoyed the first comment in this thread.
asciilifeform: anyways, ok forum, approx on par w/ early 2000s slashdot. and not spammed to death. how not -- nfi, perhaps verisimilitude knows
verisimilitude: Anyway, it's not perfect, but it's mine.
asciilifeform: perhaps is simply question of 'not yet'
asciilifeform: rather like how usenet was only spammed to death in early 2000s, and not prior
verisimilitude: It gets moderated.
verisimilitude: I'm one of the moderators.
asciilifeform: a was aboutta ask
asciilifeform: how much modding it takes , typically ? (how many turds does verisimilitude pick up on a typical day?)
verisimilitude: Actually, I've barely logged in lately. I've beat the bad part so consistently that the animal doesn't rise up much anymore.
asciilifeform: indeed can run a forum this way. asciilifeform used to
verisimilitude: So, colloquially, most of the users are ``trained'' by now.
asciilifeform: at one pt even reddit looked rather like this
phf: i believe the adage is "fuck jannies"
verisimilitude: I'm a ``janny'', asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: wassat?
verisimilitude: It stands for ``janitor''.
verisimilitude: Actually, I'm the highest level of staff, though, an administrator.
asciilifeform: what do the low levels do ?
verisimilitude: Usually, what they're told.
asciilifeform: or rather, what can they do that rando anon can't?
verisimilitude: Mostly, we just delete bad posts and respond to user reports.
verisimilitude: They can ban, make fancy posts, etc.
asciilifeform: i.e. low admin can moderate, high admin can add/remove low admins?
verisimilitude: An anonymous forum can't survive well without heavy moderation.
asciilifeform: is that the complete structure or is there moar
verisimilitude: The structure is as follows:
verisimilitude: An administrator can make new ``boards'', edit posts, ban people, configure PHP, and like things.
verisimilitude: A moderator can ban people.
verisimilitude: A janitor can only delete posts.
verisimilitude: There are other details, such as being able to see IP addresses, and whatnot.
verisimilitude: It's decent; my pay was doubled recently.
asciilifeform: anyways looks reasonably well janitored
asciilifeform: sorta like early slashdot
thimbronion: hello from ES
asciilifeform was expecting to see sumthing terrifying, like dvach
asciilifeform: thimbronion: wb
verisimilitude: Don't go to /hum/, which is a bit of a mixed bag.
verisimilitude: There has also been an issue with trannies making estrogen threads on /drug/, but they get deleted.
verisimilitude: By ``issue'', I mean two or three times.
asciilifeform: what's the expected subj on '/drug/' ?
verisimilitude: Take a guess.
asciilifeform: i.e. only for drugs that work on head ?
verisimilitude: The advice is to discuss things ``your friends'' are doing.
verisimilitude: I don't use it much.
verisimilitude: I made a caffeine thread, years ago, and that's it.
asciilifeform: reasonably good snr per today's net. pray to satan that yer forum never becomes reddit.'popular'
asciilifeform: is typically how these nature preserves of '90s net die.
verisimilitude: It has existed for roughly eight years so far.
asciilifeform: at certain pt the effort to janitor exceeds what anyone is able/willing to do
asciilifeform: 8y? notbad
verisimilitude: Notice it doesn't even have a captcha.
verisimilitude: We don't even prohibit Tor posters.
verisimilitude: So, a decent anonymous forum is possible.
asciilifeform: #a hasn't got a captcha either lol
asciilifeform: you can have a reasonably clean public park. if far enuff from 'civilization'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 19:34:56 phf: asciilifeform: well, that's my "end of tmsr" take, really when the needs of the republic started conflicting with the needs of the individuals, without republic giving any promise of satisfying those needs... etc. etc. bb living in butt fuck nowhere off mp's pitance, while mp posting pictures of lavish dinners.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2019-05-17 trinque: republic is scant of profit centers
signpost: constructing it as a self-sacrificial march was always stupid; I said this loudly for years.
signpost: the needs of the republic with a halfway sane leader would've been "I need you to build the next version of MPEX; get your ass down to CR to get started."
signpost being an idiot, thought this was the play that would surface "any day now" for far too long.
signpost: there is *no* reason that we couldn't have been x to defi as btc is to eth, except that the one guy who could've funded that startup was, if a genius, first a pervert.
asciilifeform: signpost: why would've he wanted the 'de' tho
signpost: given who he was, didn't.
asciilifeform wrote his orig ' re btc ' largely about 'where are the p2p systems'. to this day can ask this q.
asciilifeform: they aint there. largely cuz p2p aint aboutta make anyone 'rich&famous'
signpost: sometimes the king can only be richer by spending money.
asciilifeform: yea but if only way to become 'king' is by corraling the bipedal cattle -- then unsurprisingly no path from here to there
signpost means that if it's at all true that mp had 1mil *btc*, and not nominal value on mpex equiv., he was this person who could've only been richer by spending.
asciilifeform: fwiw he had at least coupla 1e3 sitting around
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091445 << while still on the subj, everything in one value system is larping to an arse sitting in another value system.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 20:16:02 asciilifeform: there's an ancient arg, which i suspect phf was alluding to, that 'if you think you need adult crypto, 8999 of 9000 chance yer a sad larper' and it seems impossible to refute, but then remember that bitcoin exists and in fact as sensitive to the given problems as anyffin in 'adult' spy biz and genuinely makes a diff on own skin.
signpost: mp was not wrong about "meaning existing within a structure of authority which cannot be predicated on the meaning" even if he lifted it straight from the greeks.
asciilifeform: this was enuff to satisfy all 'animal' urges, so unsurprisingly stopped there (discounting the megalomaniacal noises, made 0 serious to make moar other than via same pyramid as started with)
signpost: the suicidality of that speaks for itself.
asciilifeform: ( not that it was much possible to palpably 'make moar' via honest work )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-17 18:34:12 asciilifeform: ... favours so heavily that if somebody 'was there in 2011' and lost 99% of his hodl, is still fatter than anyone who 'is hero' ~today~, regardless of the latter's actual valuable contribution (to anyffin at all, incl. maintenance of troo bitcoin & assoc. systems)
asciilifeform: this is an intrinsic 'bug' in btc arguably.
asciilifeform: to 'make 100k btc' today you gotta either break a cryptosystem or raze a continent, approx
asciilifeform: at even 1k level yer prolly either 'sessile, like sea anemone' or concerned w/ an aim that dun resolve to 'make moarcoin'
signpost: nature seems balanced enough to handle these mistakes, work them out.
signpost: if not to our satisfaction.
asciilifeform: resolves errything , lol
signpost: upstack, it's "larping" to stay alive. we don't interact with the territory, but our fantasy map.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091324 << yes, but also to generate *why bother doing so* at scale.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 19:29:31 phf: asciilifeform: i think rich and poor was never the problem. the aim was really to create a closed economic system. the amish have it, the hassidim have it, the various "families" have it, etc.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091710 << oddly enuff asciilifeform was sympathetic to this pov. folx who 'want job' 8999/9000 times timeservers & sad company
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 22:52:08 signpost: the needs of the republic with a halfway sane leader would've been "I need you to build the next version of MPEX; get your ass down to CR to get started."
signpost: there's the practical matter of what to eat while writing whichever item.
signpost: rent out a warehouse and put cots
asciilifeform: is what they do in sv , but somehow not produces much edible
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086086 << tmsr was a machine we were building to do this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-20 12:38:12 signpost: would far rather know the ~100 people on earth with whom he can refine his sanity than shotgun his farts to all of twitter
signpost: it's above any particular goal. it's the refinement engine for meaning-making.
signpost: eh, this isn't a hypothetical. I made one, will make another.
signpost: the guy should've stopped being a miser and picked a hill to take, and we would've taken it.
asciilifeform: it isn't that no one can produce saleable product w/ warehouse fulla coolies. obv. some do. but rarely anyffin moar interesting comes of it than 'turn 1m$ into 3m$'
signpost: sure, I know your distaste for capitalism very well at this point, lol.
signpost isn't responsible for the game with which we get food.
signpost: don't even like it very much.
asciilifeform: once you have 1e3btc, the exercise, per mp's own telling, stops being interesting per se
asciilifeform: is wai he wasn't building bauxite refineries in tajikistan or etc
signpost: rum and riptide not interesting either, looks like.
signpost: guy didn't look happy.
signpost: "here's this sad whore that lets me play with zip-ties" etc
signpost: this is not the kind of man that takes the moon.
asciilifeform: this is vehery common failure mode of 'look i'm rich' folx
signpost: sure is.
asciilifeform: they like to autoerotically hang selves, or die in diy chopper crash, etc
asciilifeform: from sheer boredom.
asciilifeform: 'because they have no theorems to prove'(tm)(r)(p.erdos)
verisimilitude: No amount of money will let a man take the moon.
signpost: when you invent another means of organizing work at scale, do say.
verisimilitude: I could get one trillion dollars right now, and still have no chance of making it to the moon, except in an urn.
asciilifeform: well what mp nominally (at least when half coherent) wanted , wasn't a thing that submits to 'coolies at scale'
verisimilitude: It obviously doesn't work that way.
signpost: we're doing platitudes, or you're going to say why?
verisimilitude: It requires scientists and resources and many other things, things someone with mere money won't be allowed to collect in necessary quantities.
signpost ftr said nothing of "enough money = x"
signpost: so if you're addressing a particular line, link it.
signpost: what I said is that a man who claimed grand things made a fetish of making men want them.
signpost: and that was that.
signpost: there was nothing else there.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'money aint fungible' is the mega-'discovery' there. as mp found out when realized he couldn't even send a wire anymoar
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 23:12:00 signpost: this is not the kind of man that takes the moon.
asciilifeform: (cuz last fella who'd do it for him was asciilifeform)
signpost: verisimilitude: your head voices told you I was talking about money.
signpost: I said otherwise above.
verisimilitude: I don't hear voices, I have hallucinations, get it right.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091743 << it is this machine that takes all things, in all times.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 23:08:39 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086086 << tmsr was a machine we were building to do this.
asciilifeform: ( see also story of king midas... )
signpost: sure, old failure mode.
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091736 << i don't think that part was lacking, mp was solid at generating meaning
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 23:07:01 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091324 << yes, but also to generate *why bother doing so* at scale.
signpost: how do you conclude that?
signpost: if meaning's just a matter of other men being convinced, sure.
phf: signpost: yes :)
asciilifeform: phf: 'generated meaning' all the way until swallowed own tail and 'anyffin i say is meaning, is what meaning is'
signpost: then we disagree. convince them to eat their pistol. how long do things mean?
asciilifeform: ( e.g. kju in north kr also 'generates meaning'. professionally. care to partake? )
phf: signpost: well, no. think of st crispin's day speech. i think the speech part was solid, it's just the part where we all went to fight the french that didn't work, because mp was not leading the charge with his men. so to speak
phf: after all there was peak tmsr, 2017 maybe early 2018 or so, when there was heavy infrastructure building activity
signpost: sure, the guy could read and regurgitate well enough.
signpost: the results lacked.
asciilifeform: per asciilifeform's lights, e.g piz was a suicide mission, already a product of 'must succeed the mp way, with human torpedo , or doesn't count' , the correct solution to 'hosting sux' was p2pism and asciilifeform noted as much at the time
signpost may be from a bad life, but is unmoved by the man that speaks beautifully before I die for him.
signpost: passed on an invite to CR, because by then expected to be thrown against the wall next.
phf: signpost: i think that might be a hindsight perspective. because the rousing speech necessarily happens before the battle.
signpost: sure, one gets older.
verisimilitude: So I'd the foresight perspective, phf?
signpost: easy there; you're going to strain your back.
asciilifeform: ( recall what happened when asciilifeform recreated piz outta thin air in own backyard. 'not count' cuz actual mp objective was 'palace of obedience' rather than 'i want an isp')
phf: verisimilitude: no offense, but i have no idea why you're part of this conversation :)
verisimilitude: I joined #trilema, got told to read the logs before I could speak in his presence, and saw him for what he was.
verisimilitude: It could've just been a lucky guess, I suppose.
signpost: you're a boy trying to get us to undersign your egotism.
verisimilitude: I don't need help to feed that.
signpost: may your life remain as easy as it has been.
asciilifeform: fwiw verisimilitude could've taught mp a coupla things re how to solipsist, lol
signpost: at any rate, if meaning has no relationship to the real, can indeed be nothing more than "everyone's convinced"
asciilifeform: (seems sometimes even moar insulated from economic reality than an mp)
signpost considers meaning which is moved by encounters with the real the useful definition.
asciilifeform: that's the 'failure of rich' -- when 100% tune out physical reality (at least until ocean current pulls you in, chopper crashes, autoerotic noose a little too tight)
signpost: dunno that it's the wealth that's failing, but yes
asciilifeform: send an old man to qatar. comes back broke and with nuffin, let'im starve, then try & find another idiot
signpost: there was always fear there, and it had opportunity to avoid what was feared, did.
signpost neither knew the man well enough nor is the psychologist to say what.
asciilifeform: ( or recall for that matter BingoBoingo's orig. mission in 'bisp' )
signpost: run off with knife and can of beans into the woods, and I expect international commerce by next quarter, or how did it go?
phf: signpost: well, that's an interpretation that puts all of us in a bad light, re "everyone's convinced". there were plenty pragmatic elements to tmsr. deedbot wallet was not just a fetish, nor were various projects that were in many ways innovative or sometimes way ahead of its time.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-29 22:47:12 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-29#1090466 << imho 'expectations inflation' was a serious & ultimately fatal disease of #t
signpost has a harsh way of speaking in text.
signpost: imagine the lines in between burps of beer and pokes at the campfire and you've got the right tone.
asciilifeform: 'deedbot today, demolish banks by next tues'
phf: signpost: up until bb's trip to wherever-the-fuck, which ascii already elaborated on, things were pretty cool by the by :)
signpost: even that, I ran a payment processor in real life for a decade.
asciilifeform: ( on wednesday, 'banks still alive?! die, traitor')
signpost: phf: all of it was cool.
signpost: the scars too, who gets scars like these.
phf: signpost: /most/ active participants weren't paupers, or imbiciles. we have mad skills that generate cash in default world. despite the dynamic, because mp decided to become ceaser, there was a point when it was a kind of republic.
asciilifeform: mp went on for kilometres re 'effete codemonkey's bias in favour of buttonpressing solutions' but suffered equally idiotic 'meatmonkey's bias for 'manly'-flavoured solutions'
asciilifeform: ( path at end of which usa 'militias' & similar lulzy 'fightclubs' )
phf: *before decided
asciilifeform: reminiscent of jp folx who considered it moar important that 'fight is with swords' than to actually win
signpost: seeing republican ideology work was formative for me.
signpost: cannot understate my gratitude for that.
crtdaydreams: bake 100`000`000`000 shitcoin; sell one for $50; ???; profit.
signpost: *overstate
phf: it all kind of got erased in 2018 and 2019, so that's what colors most conversations, but i remember when hanbot wrote that story about a child losing his pgp key or whatever. that was a formative, pragmatic point
asciilifeform: ( defensible on aesthetic level, where in fact yer a respectable descendant of nobunaga and simply aint interested in living in a world where untermenschen pulling triggers can win against 5000 manhour sword wielded by master. but at the end yer simply dead )
asciilifeform: phf: story was in '13 iirc
signpost: phf: see, the problem with IRC is you can't just reach over and smack crtdaydreams with a walking stick.
asciilifeform: or not much later, asciilifeform had already read it before ro meet iirc
signpost: some things don't deserve a verbal response
verisimilitude: That's the benefit of Internet communication, signpost. There's no or little credible threat of physical violence.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: not always benefit, lol
signpost: yes, it's a golden age of cowardice.
verisimilitude: I'd behave differently were I physically around you, even if just a little, but right now I'm just words on a screen.
crtdaydreams: signpost: yeah I'd deserve that right about nao. on more serious note though I've been enjoying logs and some of phf's discussion.
signpost: that's good. thank you for your upboat.
signpost: back on topic. the medium makes it too easy to generate this "not my real self" fetishism.
verisimilitude: It goes both ways. How much of anyone here is his real self? We don't mention when we leave to take a shit, now do we?
asciilifeform: mp did! lol
verisimilitude: How much of mp was real, that is certain?
crtdaydreams: don't start with the whole `hollow internet' bullshit lol
asciilifeform: well the meatspace mp could endure maybe 2h of social life before retiring to hideout
asciilifeform: if the meets were at all representative
signpost can think of several folks here that have been damned authentic for years.
asciilifeform: ( and said very little. but maybe had toothache? both times? whoknows )
signpost: if it's easier to imagine it's impossible, who's to stop you.
verisimilitude: For what it's worth, I'm just as insufferable in person.
asciilifeform believes
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091860 << would like to point out that since first reading this has moved away from various anonytardisms
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 23:44:31 asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform's pov re 'lessons of piz'
signpost: all these things do is talk about their little sockpuppet
phf: if the shoe fits
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: link was moar re 'there aint such a thing as an off-grid isp'
asciilifeform: i.e. you can expensively masturbate in 'off shore' until someone trips over cable, and it'll happen sooner rather than later
crtdaydreams: ohh ok. ja. all things considered in terms of a pest grid, how'd ya get around USG radio mafia?
crtdaydreams: bit of a sidetrack, but spurred that thought
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: like so
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-04-27 23:24:36 asciilifeform: roughly speaking, 'uwb' over 0-30Mhz .
asciilifeform: yer transmitting right nao, when you flip yer light switch.
asciilifeform: simply, no one has 'key' to receive.
signpost: upstack, on the discussion of meaning. weird that "god died" but the "soul before all-eye of god" zombies on.
asciilifeform: ( traditional carrier-freq. narrowband radio is an artifact of pre-kompoyooting dark age )
signpost figures the urgent insistence that they exist, and are very smart boys, indicates a leak.
signpost: damn kids don't even do mushrooms anymore, do they.
signpost goes to wrap up a thing he's been meaning to post.
asciilifeform must bbl
verisimilitude: I'm usually loathe to mention web comics, but this is relevant to narcissism: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/sticks-and-stones
verisimilitude: The hover text completes it.
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