Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-11-13 | 2021-11-15 → ↓
cdd: I'd like to ask (I'm not sure if this is the right channel to ask on) if I could purchase bitcoin in exchange for monero?
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-13#1065565 << might not be very compact, but in place of parens, I just remebered you *can* [shalmaneser]awt ... for example
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-13 12:44:00 thimbronion: (shalmaneser)awt: Nickname is unavailable: Illegal characters
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065615 << fluffyponies likely to be found on Libera.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 00:42:17 cdd: I'd like to ask (I'm not sure if this is the right channel to ask on) if I could purchase bitcoin in exchange for monero?
signpost: in today's chuckles, current version of the linux kernel requres at least gcc 5.1.0, not to mention openssl and other rot.
signpost seeing how metastasized this is for science
thimbronion: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $64083.29
shinohai: signpost: The m/l is absolute cancer, if the "muh rust" folks have their way, you'll need all that bloat to build kernel sometime in the future.
signpost: didn't linus say "just the tip" err "just modules" about it?
signpost: it's defo coming.
signpost: https://lkml.org/lkml/2020/7/10/1261 << guess he didn't draw such a line, just mentioned drivers as an example.
signpost: woof, clownworld sucks.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 11:20:30 signpost: in today's chuckles, current version of the linux kernel requres at least gcc 5.1.0, not to mention openssl and other rot.
asciilifeform: wonder what dafuq sslism is doing in there ( and rly, not as optional turd, but won't link w/out it ?? )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065627 << drivers in 'nonstandard' langs have existed for a while ( asciilifeform linked to an ada example, cannot nao find, grr ) but afaik none yet in linus's tree
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 11:40:28 signpost: https://lkml.org/lkml/2020/7/10/1261 << guess he didn't draw such a line, just mentioned drivers as an example.
asciilifeform: will be lulzy when the tards start linking over9000 separate gc's into kernel...
asciilifeform: fwiw earlier this yr asciilifeform grudgingly went to 5.11.3 (in torture room strictly, on account of this) , built a-ok w/ gcc 4.9.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 20:24:04 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063729 << i got 1 of those amd cad card things that doesn't 3d ~at all. but worx with 100% blobless driver, and pushes 3 x '4k', which was all i needed.
asciilifeform: i suppose it'll be the last.
asciilifeform: if ever somehow 'must new irons' will have to backport the modules.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065615 << maybe ask mats , iirc he's admitted to collecting certain shitcoins ( was gonna nominate shinohai , but iguess he dun have that one ? )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 00:42:17 cdd: I'd like to ask (I'm not sure if this is the right channel to ask on) if I could purchase bitcoin in exchange for monero?
asciilifeform: !!key cdd
asciilifeform: !!rated cdd
deedbot: asciilifeform has not rated cdd.
asciilifeform: !!rate cdd 1 n00b
asciilifeform: !!v 9633E971D30DC4493AC924AA558ADBC818792CA623BE0D9A8F1A0842F27C6062
deedbot: asciilifeform rated cdd 1 << n00b
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065639 << I grew tired of even fucking with it because of the "HF erry months" policy they had going on.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 11:49:53 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065615 << maybe ask mats , iirc he's admitted to collecting certain shitcoins ( was gonna nominate shinohai , but iguess he dun have that one ? )
asciilifeform: shinohai: was thinking about this, and starting to suspect that all shitcoins are doomed to eternal regular 'upgrades' via centralized scam hq: it's their only defense against the 'atc death'.
asciilifeform: i.e. as soon as perp starts to notice that he's no longer the dominant miner, will 'upgrade' the pow, and the chumps will eat it up (given as they ate a shitcoin to begin with, being chumps)
asciilifeform: and given as the entire purpose of a shitcoin is to 'replay history' with perp at the center.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 21:00:06 asciilifeform: erryone wants to 'be satoshi'. how to achieve this if not by somehow replaying history with $perp at 'the center'.
asciilifeform: recall how one nao needs a 'license' from buterin to mine ethertardium, for instance.
shinohai: cl-ircd looks pretty neat asciilifeform ... far more compact than that nea-ircd I toyed with for a while.
asciilifeform: shinohai: could be trimmed substantially given as pest doesn't actually need anyffin like a full ircd
asciilifeform: only the 'skin' of one
asciilifeform: (e.g. none of the 'op' functionality is needed)
shinohai: Might be a good learning exercise for me to learn how usocket udp worx at very least.
signpost: cool, since deedbot is cl, might be handy for bolting to pest
asciilifeform: shinohai: the beauty of udpism is that there aint much to undestand, it worx more or less same errywhere.
asciilifeform: signpost: indeed. and imho optimal pestron would be sumthing more or less separable from the default (irctronic) front end, i.e. gluable directly to a bot such as deedbot
asciilifeform: shinohai: udp per se is the proverbial 'postcard' -- take N bytes, an ip and a port, and throw'em on their way at the latter
signpost: yep, very little of deedbot gives a shit about irc too.
asciilifeform: shinohai: there's nuances, e.g. fragging, the ephemeral ports thing, etc. but overall as simple as it gets, udp is simply raw ip with the protocol # set to 17 and a checksum field.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-19 16:26:43 asciilifeform: punkman: i'm abusing the terminology, factually. referring to anything that may be fragged.
asciilifeform: ( well, that and fields for src/dest ports, these aint in raw ip )
asciilifeform: there's a total of 8 bytes that aint in a raw ip packet.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065618 << hm i thought he was cooling his heels in usg coin extraction gulag ? did he ransom himself ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 11:01:42 shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065615 << fluffyponies likely to be found on Libera.
shinohai: lol I refer to all monero enthusiasts collectively as "fluffyponies"
shinohai: They're like furries but like pretending their coins are totally top seekrit.
asciilifeform not visited 'libera' and doesn't have any plans to, didn't lose anyffin there
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-16 13:29:18 asciilifeform: under no circumstances however will asciilifeform participate in the reich's replacement-fleanodes or any such thing.
asciilifeform: the sinking of fleanode, with the attendant exodus of rats from the boat, was rly a gift from the gods.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-16 13:33:09 asciilifeform: simply stating for the record that asciilifeform doesn't give a fuck, and will happily do without ever speaking with any such people again, if it means to also be free of fleanodism in all of its manifestations.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065677 << erry half-serious shitcoin has a 'lure'. for ethertards, the 'smart'; for tortards -- 'anonymism'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 13:35:54 shinohai: They're like furries but like pretending their coins are totally top seekrit.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-09 03:13:39 cdd: asciilifeform: Been reading this article on your historic gentoo distfiles. I was reading some of the comments, specifically the reply to an "anonymous" user. I think I get what you mean now.
asciilifeform: seems that the monerists even 'learned from' 1 classic mistake of the tor pushers, and nao trying to engineer an Official usg 'ban' on 'privacycoins' ('it's banned, so it must work!')
asciilifeform: rather like the astroturfed 'controversy' re 'end-to-end crypto' (where 100% of the softs in question are in fact faux-p2p moxyware)
shinohai: "No way the USG runs the majority of exit noads, you're just spreading FUD!!!!" et all
asciilifeform: shinohai: not only the trivial fact re exit nodes, but whole thing, in light of the fate of the various 'silk roads'
asciilifeform: 'coventrying' dunwork if the perp can't 'keep it in his pants'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-15 21:48:10 asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: this is universally the case in crypto. recall coventry.
asciilifeform: btw recall the pompous 'busts' of derps who baked 'eevil seekrit turdroid pnojes for mafia' ?
asciilifeform: there's what, 3, and counting, they have 1 erry yr nao, next one's due any time nao
asciilifeform: the obv. point of these exercises is to lure the dumb shits to the next one, ad infinitum. and by all indications -- worx
shinohai: lulzy
asciilifeform: lost count.
asciilifeform: 'feel like a trader'(tm)(r)(tlp).
asciilifeform: this not even counting various 'blackphone', 'redphone', 'silentphone'(?), etc. lulz
asciilifeform: there seems to be an entire ministry of honeypots dedicated to nuffin else.
asciilifeform: y'know, anyffin, anyffin but actual crypto.
asciilifeform: even a schoolboy could readily bake e.g. otp-ciphered walkie talkie. but no one's ever heard of one, because nobody will engineer a 'bitcoin magazine' marketing push for working crypto, because why.
asciilifeform: meanwhile 'militias' publish standardized tables of plaintext pirate radio freqs.
asciilifeform: (if yer already squatting on usg freqs at 50watts, 'may as well hang for a sheep as a lamb' and otp?? but no...)
asciilifeform: ... because 100% provocateurs.
asciilifeform: 'Channel 3 - 462.6125 MHz - FRS 3 - Primary Patriot Militia Calling' 'Channel 17 - 462.6000 MHz - FRS 17 - Patriot Militia Ops Tactical' etc etc
shinohai: Even drug cartels understand otp over pirate rf lol
asciilifeform: shinohai: speaking here of supposed 'opposition' to regime, rather than the smugglers who exist in harmonious symbiosis with 'war on drugs'
asciilifeform: ( the latter more often than not use usg-issued gear, when they aint busy with 'caesar cipher' lolz )
asciilifeform: and observe the total lack of interest from ~all quarters in triangulation-proof radio.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-04-27 23:24:36 asciilifeform: roughly speaking, 'uwb' over 0-30Mhz .
asciilifeform: even tho w/ modern silicon, just short of trivial.
asciilifeform: mostly (but not entirely!) unrelated :
asciilifeform: asciilifeform would like to propose a new pest msg command :
asciilifeform: 0xFE and 0xFD: broadcast (a la 0x00, i.e. to all member of a pestnet whose $maxbounce permits'em to hear), bearing not text but a ciphrogram, keyed to a peer for whom the sender wishes to find ip:port.
asciilifeform: actually just 0xFE (the intended addressee, if he's on that pestnet and reachable, will decode, and make contact with the addr:port enclosed)
asciilifeform: all others ignore (given as they can't decode the payload).
asciilifeform: would be imho reasonable to rate-limit these (i.e. accept, say, 1 per peer per 5min)
asciilifeform: this'd obviate the need to exchange AT entries with ~every~ peer, while exposing nuffin to folx whose biz it aint.
asciilifeform: ^ thimbronion billymg shinohai signpost et al ^ q/s comments invited.
asciilifeform: the ciphered payload of 0xFE would consist simply of the AT-format addr/port on which the sender wishes to be reached by the addressee.
asciilifeform: if the addressee receives, he makes contact, and this becomes his current AT entry for the sending peer. otherwise nuffin happens.
asciilifeform: you'll still need at least ~one~ peer's addr to get on a pest net, but from there on, any peer with whom you have a valid key will be contactable henceforth without fiddling, for so long as he is reachable via a broadcast on that net.
asciilifeform: this is strictly isomorphic to the current draft where we e.g. 'hey erryone, asciilifeform is on ip:port' via plain broadcast text. but moar narrowly targeted, i.e. it aint whole planet who gets the info but only the folx who have any biz doing so.
punkman: if we have this, might as well allow arbitrary content in the encrypted message, rather than just ip:port
asciilifeform: formally, imho payload (i.e. the 428byte msg) of 0xFE oughta consist of : 32bytes ('my handle') + 4 bytes ('my ip') + 2 bytes ('my port') + 10 bytes nulls (padding) == 48bytes serpented, and anuther 48bytes of hmac (via signing key of addressee/sender pairing), summing to 96byte, and 332 nulls.
asciilifeform: punkman: imho this oughta be strictly for 'hey $peer, i'm over-here'
asciilifeform: punkman: otherwise is an invitation to simply treat ~all~ messages as broadcasts, which will be bw-costly.
punkman: hence the rate limit
asciilifeform: punkman: even when individual peers rate-limit, you can still get a pretty thick flood if yer pestnet is populous
asciilifeform: so imho is bad idea to simply send errything-to-erryone, even with rate limits
asciilifeform: except when it specifically is needed to help establish contact
asciilifeform: over e.g. shortwave, yes, we'll 'errythign to erryone', but there it doesn't cost nearly so much given that there's a single stream.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-13 22:15:20 asciilifeform: ... likewise pest worx without modification over radio, wire, or other 'broadcast channel'. simply stuff erry outgoing packet into a free timeslot.
punkman: there is no way for peers to filter it anyway, only recipient can discard non "ip:port" message, after decrypting it anyway
asciilifeform: punkman: correct
asciilifeform: punkman: limiting the payload to the purpose of making contact is simply 'ecological' consideration
asciilifeform: it'd suck imho if a pestnet with coupla hundred people were uninhabitable unless you have gb/s pipe.
asciilifeform: i.e. if you ~know~ where (addrwise) a peer is , you oughta be speaking directly.
asciilifeform: rather than spraying to entire net erry single msg.
asciilifeform: imho these oughta be sent strictly when necessary -- otherwise you leak info to entire pestnet which folx dun have necessarily any biz knowing (concretely -- the # of peers you have)
punkman67: thinking of it as "emergency message" routing, rather than "regular direct message"
asciilifeform: punkman: i'd simply rather not have pest protocol resemble the proverbial 'matryoshka doll' where a msg can contain arbitrary other msg etc
punkman67: your station already received and decrypted message, might as well log it and notify operator
asciilifeform: imho there's no valid use case for these other than to establish AT.
asciilifeform: hence why not save the fingerwork and let it do so, rather than 'hey $peer, plz add 1.2.3.4:5567 for my AT, kthx' via humantext
punkman67: yeah makes sense
asciilifeform: asciilifeform wasn't aiming to bake 'a tor', and imho to do so is foolish in general case
asciilifeform: i'd very much rather that folx suffering untreated case of 'tor of the central nervous system' not use pest.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 17:23:30 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i dun think kakobrekla is 'pushing' ethertardism, but pointing out that it is a natural fuffle for folx who demand impossibilities to be offered eventually.
asciilifeform must bbl
asciilifeform: incidentally, thinking about it, simple rate-limiting is nonsensical -- instead 0xFE msgs should simply rank 'dead last' priority and get decoded on an as-cycles-avail. basis.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 14:34:39 asciilifeform: would be imho reasonable to rate-limit these (i.e. accept, say, 1 per peer per 5min)
asciilifeform: i.e. solely when cpu would be otherwise idle.
asciilifeform genuinely bbl
punkman67: alternative implementation: "have_you_seen_handle" message, you send to all your peers, they reply with "ip:port:last_seen_timestamp" for requested handle
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-13#1065580 << i didn't even have to do anything really, the irc mimicking worked well enough that i simply had to spin up another bot configured with my pest instance as the irc server
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-13 21:47:37 asciilifeform: takes off hat to billymg for baking civilized logger nearly immediately after thimbronion's prototype
shinohai: ^ neato thimbronion will try as soon as back @ desk
thimbronion: shinohai: cool, ty!
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065673 << nah, he was released. unless captured again since then
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 13:33:49 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065618 << hm i thought he was cooling his heels in usg coin extraction gulag ? did he ransom himself ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-21 15:55:21 shinohai: lol fluffypony released from the Fed's AirBnB https://archive.is/mTX0l
shinohai: $vwap
busybot: The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 64113.02 USD
shinohai: ^ so it seems for some reason when doing this in pestnet, the chan field no longer does anything, so msg is just going into void.
shinohai: Don't understand it, I changed 0 on the bot.
shinohai: billymg: I'll bet it's because with bots blatta now expects `--channel-name` flag to be set.
billymg: shinohai: are you seeing awt's recent messages in the channel
shinohai: Just now rejoining
thimbronion: shinohai: default channel flag is #pest
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065762 << imho terrible idea -- only the addressee yer asking after has any biz knowing that yer asking after him in particular
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 15:20:39 punkman67: alternative implementation: "have_you_seen_handle" message, you send to all your peers, they reply with "ip:port:last_seen_timestamp" for requested handle
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065765 << neato! will press & restart with that one (hopefully stopped losing keys?)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 16:10:41 scoopbot: New post on Thimbron: Blatta 9989: presence for wot
thimbronion: billymg: if worse comes to worse you could send me a copy of your main station db and I could attempt to debug it on my machine.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: eh it's a sqlite, if need to can pull out contents without sweat
asciilifeform: (simply gotta remember to back it up when trying n+1st draft)
asciilifeform: anyways, i'm on 9989; runs
thimbronion: asciilifeform: continuing discussion from #pest - can you illustrate a concrete scenario?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: re 'when would a station know a peer key but not a valid AT entry' ?
thimbronion: asciilifeform: yes. For example, is this for the case when you've already peered with someone, but one party changes IP?
asciilifeform: most elementarily : when either it or the peer have drifted to a new ip and/or ephemeral nat port
asciilifeform: correct.
asciilifeform: this is esp. likely if the station is used intermittently
asciilifeform: (either station)
thimbronion: Currently, if they both drift, that would be a problem. But if only one drifts, rubbish messages from the drifter should update the drifter's at.
asciilifeform: whereas the key remains valid (currently -- indefinitely, until rekeyed manually; when we get 'rekey' -- similarly by mutual consent of the stations)
thimbronion: grrr "should update the non-drifter's at"
asciilifeform: thimbronion: correct, as i understand it, is only pertinent if both drifted.
thimbronion: ahah ok.
thimbronion: I get it then.
asciilifeform: the other scenario i can think of , is when drift is ~anticipated~
asciilifeform: e.g. someone is planning a travel
asciilifeform: under the current protocol, he may lose link rather frequently
asciilifeform: thimbronion: the other notion behind 0xfe msg is to reduce the amt of avoidable gruntwork in setting up peerings to begin with.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: such that all one needs is a shared key and one peer?
asciilifeform: ( it is theoretically possible to bake a pest where nobody has to give a rat's arse about ip addrs at all! but rather 'unecological' not to mention slow)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-13 22:01:08 asciilifeform: (2**32) / (60*60*24*10000) ~= 5days , by sending 10k packets/s ( (10000 * 498) / (1024**2) ~= 5MB/s ) to randomly-selected ipv4s.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: correct
asciilifeform: what i'd like is 'next best thing', where a station operator ~almost~ never has to deal with ips/ports.
asciilifeform: e.g. billymg takes his rk station and copies to lappy, and doesn't need to fiddle w/ configs at all
thimbronion: yeah that would be nice
asciilifeform: fwiw theoretically even nao, if yer station wasn't behind a nat, and none of its peers 'drifted', can already copy config w/out fiddling
asciilifeform: (supposing the copied-to machine aint behind nat)
asciilifeform: with the changes suggested by asciilifeform today & yest., would no longer be a matter of concern to station operator whether he's behind a nat or not.
asciilifeform: and at very little cost.
asciilifeform: i.e. if you can reach ~1~ peer, oughta be able to securely transmit a 'here i am' to each $peer in yer wot.
asciilifeform: (naturally, they gotta be on the net)
asciilifeform: for ref: the other change asciilifeform was referring to , was this. which'd allow 2 natted stations to link up.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 11:22:54 asciilifeform: btw for troo 'hole punching , if we were to a msg type where yer peer tells you your ephemeral port, then a pair of peers where ~both~ are natted could link up if either of'em has a peer who isn't and is reachable.
asciilifeform: (incl. to arbitrary other stations)
asciilifeform: (per current spec, 1 peer in any pair gotta be un-natted)
asciilifeform: with a 'gimme my port' cmd, it'd suffice for 1 of them to simply be able to reach any other unnatted peer.
asciilifeform: (that is, one other)
asciilifeform: thimbronion: makes sense ?
thimbronion: asciilifeform: yes
asciilifeform: ftr there are heathen protocols which can be abused to send a udpgram and get back own ephemeral port. e.g. dns servers can be milked this way. but i'd rather not encode a reliance on heathen toilets into pest.
asciilifeform: ( not to mention that pest stations oughta be able to function inside a lan or whatever other segregated net )
thimbronion: billymg: sometihng else you could try to debug the bot would be to connect to the bot station with weechat and see who you can communicate with.
thimbronion: i.e. kill the bot, connect to the bot station with a standard IRC client
asciilifeform: thimbronion: under the proposed scheme w/ 0xfe -- wouldn't even need to keep whole AT on disk; could suffice to supply a few known addrs on cmdline when starting, a la trb, and it'd squeeze the whole AT out via the described process on boot.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: ah yes. the advantage being -- less to burn when the door is being battered down?
asciilifeform: well you still gotta burn the keys
asciilifeform: (ideally keys oughta live on disk ciphered, and one enters pw on boot)
asciilifeform: this is much easier when the only thing that ever gets updated on disk, is keys
asciilifeform: a station db which falls into enemy hands from 'cold' machine oughta be ~worthless a la ciphered trb wallet.
asciilifeform: (this, note, aint in the draft spec)
asciilifeform realizes that self/net-chains also gotta live on disk. so it won't after all be 'only keys'
asciilifeform: still imho safe mechanism for requesting peer addrs via broadcast would be a win.
asciilifeform: ( when done as described, i.e. such that only the addressee learns anyffin )
asciilifeform: incidentally, here's an entirely unrelated idea, simply to increase the suffering of snoops :
asciilifeform: ... a copy of erry outgoing ~black~ packet oughta be sent to some random handful of at addrs ~other~ than the intended peer's.
asciilifeform: (the folx for whom not meant -- will simply throw it out as a martian .)
asciilifeform: oughta be operator-configurable behaviour.
asciilifeform: in fact oughta be able to set it to 'max' and then impossible to infer, via traffic analysis, who yer directmsging with.
asciilifeform regards this as optional luxury, rather than essential must-have
asciilifeform: ( note that notion there is to send a copy of the black to ~erry peer~, rather than as a net broadcast )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 14:49:37 asciilifeform: punkman: otherwise is an invitation to simply treat ~all~ messages as broadcasts, which will be bw-costly.
asciilifeform: for e.g. warez this'd be obscenely bw-hungry, but i can't think of a reason why a chat directmsg shouldn't travel (as copies of 'black') to erry peer in at (incl. obv. the intended addressee; none of the others will react to it)
asciilifeform: when you directmsg, only you and the addressee have any biz knowing about it happening; and not yer isps, or nsa, etc
asciilifeform: all the latter will see is 'someone is directmsging someone'
asciilifeform: mercilessly twist, twist the knife in the liver of the snoop, and at small cost.
asciilifeform: the other, orthogonal thing i'ma mention for completeness (may already have mentioned) is that stations oughta sometimes send packets of liquishit which aint 496byte. to ea. other (simply discard on receipt as martian) and to random ip.
asciilifeform: it oughta be physically impossible to e.g. compose an ids rule against pest.
asciilifeform: (without banning all of udp, incl. usg.dns etc)
asciilifeform: (moar nuanced -- a pest packet's 496 oughta sometimes be elongated with random rubbish up to the 516 possible w/out fragging, and on receipt discard all bytes above 496 and process then normally)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 13:36:38 asciilifeform: gregory4: gives total packet size of 576 ( 60 byte ip header, 8 byte udp header ) which is the trad. MTU.
asciilifeform: (that way cannot 'oh hey let's allow dns but not pest, reject all where length==496')
asciilifeform: is 'bridge too far' currently, but imho is Right Thing.
asciilifeform: ... an alt-variant of this would be to queue a random-soup packet to ea. peer (along with the actual black for the actual addressee) and send'em in random order, when directmsging.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 20:33:05 asciilifeform: ... a copy of erry outgoing ~black~ packet oughta be sent to some random handful of at addrs ~other~ than the intended peer's.
asciilifeform: would have similar effect from snoop's pov; without unnecessarily spreading copies of genuine ciphertext around the planet.
asciilifeform: (can debate whether this matters)
asciilifeform is of the school of thought that it doesn't -- snoop can be presumed to obtain a copy of erry packet sent
verisimilitude: I was already planning to accept and truncate larger packets, so that works out.
verisimilitude: That's easier to program in some ways.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065827 << yeah, something is up with how i'm running that other blatta server. i tried connecting from here (different machine) and i could connect, and see 'billymg' in my nicklist, but messages i sent to #pest weren't showing up on the other machine
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 20:07:47 thimbronion: billymg: sometihng else you could try to debug the bot would be to connect to the bot station with weechat and see who you can communicate with.
billymg: i guess at least that rules out that it's something bot specific
billymg: will look into it some more tomorrow
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065645 << asciilifeform: I'm biting the bullet on this one. Fair, but I'm workin' on it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 11:50:29 asciilifeform: !!rate cdd 1 n00b
cdd: I
cdd: I'd like to inquire though, what's the story behind diana_coman, mircea_popescu, hanbot, et cetera.
cdd: My understanding of Trilema, TMSR and the (((real))) history of early bitcoin is limited. From my understanding popescu made the first bitcoin exchange, and technologies like the WoT and deedbot were built around them.
cdd: s/them/it./
cdd: Then, TMSR collapsed. I have no idea why.
bonechewer: I am probably missing something, but it seems to me there is no great benefit from selfchains being stored on disk. If my station goes down and traffic continues, won't the selfchains I read from disk be out of date? Or do you mean only the selfchains for my own outgoing messages?
bonechewer: In the latter case, obviously I do need to read my station's own state from disk.
bonechewer: further upstack, I am probably not as smart as a schoolboy, but I would very much like to have a hand in creating a portable, air-gapped otptron
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 14:04:58 asciilifeform: even a schoolboy could readily bake e.g. otp-ciphered walkie talkie. but no one's ever heard of one, because nobody will engineer a 'bitcoin magazine' marketing push for working crypto, because why.
bonechewer: ...see e.g. my earlier monomania on the subject
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-26 15:16:11 bonechewer: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046718 << upstack: I may be a tedious monomaniac, but I do think that easy availability of a build-it-yourself, un-own-able portable OTPtron would have civilisational impact, if only by crowding out USG's ability to sell ersatz versions
bonechewer: It seems to me that thinking one is communicating securely on any piece of commodity hardware connected to the public internet or cell network is self-deception. If the enemy wants to read your PGPgrams or, for that matter, pest traffic, he will send a magic packet to your ethernet controller, wifi chip, or baseband modem, own your box, and read your traffic right from your frame buffer as you
bonechewer: view it
bonechewer: But an air-gapped otptron that communicates via QR-codes and camera, with no network interface whatsoever, only a SD card for loading code and keys, ought to be doable.
bonechewer: So, with a bit more risk, might be exchanging ciphertext with one's network-facing box only over an optical serial link
bonechewer: But if that OTP walkie-talkie can't be built with off-the-shelf parts, it'll never be feasible... so I was pretty dismayed that asciilifeform seemed to envision only an acoustic coupler, the fabrication of which would be entirely beyond my ken
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-26 19:06:02 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-26#1048940 << i can't resist to ask, where do you live or work such that acoustic coupler cannot work (they work at point-blank range) due to ambient noise ?
asciilifeform: bonechewer: the thrd you linked imho contains a quite pedantic explanation by asciilifeform of 'wainot'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-26 17:19:46 asciilifeform: mats: it is why 'adult' product is specifically ~not~ 'made of lego'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065869 << a +1 aint a rebuke, cdd, it's normally what someone gives to a n00b so that the latter is in turn able to rate people (a 0 cannot , traditionally, issue ratings of his own). it simply means 'i don't know this fella at ~all, but imho he can be trusted not to fill wot db w/ spamola at least'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 22:15:36 cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065645 << asciilifeform: I'm biting the bullet on this one. Fair, but I'm workin' on it.
asciilifeform: cdd: wot rating traditionally expresses degree of familiarity you have with the subject of the rating. and the sign bit (+/-) expresses whether in your view his works are of good or evil.
asciilifeform: (there's debate re details of this, but afaik this is a reasonably accurate description of typical use)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065873 << mp never (far as anyone knows) built 'bitcoin exchanges' in the usual sense. ( here's a review of what he was orig. known for, in the early days. )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 22:22:25 cdd: My understanding of Trilema, TMSR and the (((real))) history of early bitcoin is limited. From my understanding popescu made the first bitcoin exchange, and technologies like the WoT and deedbot were built around them.
asciilifeform: cdd: fella was 1 of those people who spent entire life preoccupied with building up a 'legend of himself' : reliable info re his actual biography is scarce. but the #t (his chan) log contains literally ~100MB of him, can read until choking
asciilifeform: cdd: keep in mind, mp was not a programmer (even in the hobbyist sense) and 'his' systems were in all cases built up by associates (sometimes unknown) .
bonechewer: despite your exposition in linked thread, I simply can't fathom why I should object to Other People's Code running on a board with no network interface whatsoever. That code can do whatever it likes, but can't leak plaintext over a network interface that doesn't exist.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: iirc i described in painful detail -- if it shares a power supply and radio nearfield with the seekrit-laden board, can interact w/ same (and with nearby artifacts)
asciilifeform: this doesn't somehow go away if one closes eyes.
bonechewer: perhaps, but TEMPEST seems like a much more difficult class of attack for the adversary than simply (1) send magic packet to box running PGP (2) ask Intel management engine to squirt framebuffer to adversary HQ
asciilifeform: bonechewer: normally when 'reddit lego designer' builds ciphermachines, there's no reason for adversary to 'plant' anyffin at all - it leaks entirely naturally in the carrierwave of the bluetooth, wifi, etc. liquishit these 'legos' inevitably include.
asciilifeform: and picking up the leaked bits doesn't require exotica in black vans, but generally can be done w/ ~100$ box from across 3 streets if need be.
bonechewer: my assumption is that otp walkie-talkie contains no commercial wifi, ethernet, bluetooth, etc. chips; just own FPGA.
asciilifeform: this -- would be sane. for so long as you follow sane principles of rng as illustrated here -- separate grounds for analogue/digital/rng , shields, >1 indep. trng unit, etc
asciilifeform: not exotic in any sense, is exactly how test equipment ( a decent, i.e. 5000$+ oscilloscope, encephalograph, etc. ) designed always.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: the main problem with sane electronics is the ~nonexistent market they face at anything like a realistic price point as asciilifeform detailed in 50+ threads to date.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-26 15:33:18 asciilifeform: bonechewer: this as you can already see aint esp. difficult to build. problem will be similar to FG (which, or something like it, you in fact will need to include in each unit). you'll need to sell'em for 1k$+ to break even. (or, alternatively, 100$ but sell 1e6 units.)
asciilifeform: from bitter experience.
bonechewer: of course, and in particular otp walkie talkie needs no TRNG onboard. One operator with TRNG can pre-populate a bunch of pads onto microSD cards or such, for operator of OTPtron to insert
asciilifeform: in principle could. (sane for so long as the 'filler' aint a pc)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065882 << the traditional countermeasure, used by afaik nearly erryone, is to pgpate on a nicless lappy only switched on for the duration of the session (how to get ciphertext from net and onto it, varies, diff. people do it in diff. ways)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 23:09:00 bonechewer: It seems to me that thinking one is communicating securely on any piece of commodity hardware connected to the public internet or cell network is self-deception. If the enemy wants to read your PGPgrams or, for that matter, pest traffic, he will send a magic packet to your ethernet controller, wifi chip, or baseband modem, own your box, and read your traffic right from your frame buffer as you
asciilifeform: (e.g. mp actually had his whores key it in by hand, supposedly)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065872 << it's a 100MB+ story, and dun trust anyone who'd propose to fit it into a paragraph or 3.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 22:20:44 cdd: I'd like to inquire though, what's the story behind diana_coman, mircea_popescu, hanbot, et cetera.
bonechewer would be willing to be that >50% pgpate right on their 'net-connected boxes and hope the Eye of Sauron is napping at that moment
bonechewer: *willing to bet
asciilifeform: cdd: if yer impatient, here's an mp flunkie's 'interview' of asciilifeform following the latter's expulsion from mp's imaginary empire
dulapbot: Logged on 2019-11-08 20:15:06 asciilifeform: dorion: you may begin whenever you wish. ( yer time slot is still to 1600 . )
asciilifeform: bonechewer: how you do it is b/w you and odin
asciilifeform: point being, there's a traditional 'inexpensive and mostly sane' algo.
asciilifeform: rather like how is generally agreed that one oughta wash hands b/w shitting and eating.
asciilifeform: oh ha signpost , is it doubled up cuz i fired it twice ?
asciilifeform: (and iirc it used to confirm when eating..?)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 22:58:43 bonechewer: In the latter case, obviously I do need to read my station's own state from disk.
bonechewer: shuttling ciphertext to and from 'net-connected box is time-consuming enough to significantly increase message-to-message turnaround time. A well-designed airgapped otptron that made it quicker would mean many more people communicating securely.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: 'securely'
asciilifeform: that's the thing, most people aint masochists, they are not 'doing it painfully for the sake of pain'
bonechewer: hmm, I fail to understand what you are driving at, sorry
asciilifeform: bonechewer: most 'optimizations for comfort' offered by soi-disant 'security' vendors compromise security in very obvious ways.
asciilifeform: the lusers eat it up anyways, of course.
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065891 << I understand that, but it's good to have it clarified distinctly. I was rather referring to my newlyfound status of "n00b" which I can't deny.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 23:25:22 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065869 << a +1 aint a rebuke, cdd, it's normally what someone gives to a n00b so that the latter is in turn able to rate people (a 0 cannot , traditionally, issue ratings of his own). it simply means 'i don't know this fella at ~all, but imho he can be trusted not to fill wot db w/ spamola at least'
asciilifeform: cdd: errybody currently tuned in 'started life' as somebody's '+1 -- n00b' or the like, at one pt.
cdd: My understanding of these systems are surface-level to say the least.
cdd: Comforting. :)
bonechewer: of course there is a trade-off between time taken to encipher/decipher and transmit, vs. probability of the adversary reading your plaintext.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: it doesn't get much faster than e.g. pestgram, if you need 'reasonable' seekoority and fast msg time.
asciilifeform: gold standard is still pgp.
asciilifeform: ( tho asciilifeform is slowly working on changing this )
bonechewer: Agreed. And if one absolutely wants security, use a one-time pad offline, encipher/decipher by hand, key in the ciphertext.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: if yer paper pads aint generated by something mostly equivalent to FG, you're still a walking corpse
asciilifeform: rng is not a trivial problem.
bonechewer: Sure, and best not reuse them a la VENONA
asciilifeform: (and nobody's about to throw 1e7 coins to bake paper pad. even 1930s su used machines.)
asciilifeform: there's a reason they succumbed to temptation to reuse.
asciilifeform: pads were expensive.
asciilifeform: (esp. the part where it has to travel with armed couriers etc)
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