bonechewer: hence, convenience as a design criterion. "Man is the measure of all things.(tm)(r)"
mats: i wouldnt generate any keys with it but other than that its pretty usable for dummies
asciilifeform: bonechewer: if the biznis is actually sensitive, and the risks -- real, and not imagined, convenience of the crypto no longer seems like 1st, 2nd, or 10th on the list of concerns.
bonechewer: mats: thanks for the explanation, glad to know web UI supports that mode. Is it the usual PSBT or some other format?
bonechewer: for "convenience" feel free to substitute "expected time to compete message exchange" or "probability of user error requiring restart"
mats: dunno what that shit is
bonechewer: PSBT is BIP147
mats: why do you want that
mats: oh this is some multisig garbage
bonechewer: I don't; just curious about what format to need to parse
asciilifeform: mats: it seems to be the prb-standard for interface w/ iron wallets.
bonechewer: I may be mistaken but I think multisig is optional
asciilifeform: it's a massive ball of 'optionals', like most reich.standards
asciilifeform actually went and tried to read the 'bip', when mentioned earlier; barfed mightily
bonechewer: agreed, and few implementations actually bother with the optionals
mats: theres a github repo for coinbin, find out
bonechewer: yes, will certainly do so. Agree that there are much more straightforward formats
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043958 << you store the pad in sram and walk over each block 1e8 times after it gets used. iirc discussed to death in #t days.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 23:53:51 mats: and how does one solve the longstanding problem of key reuse, a failure mode that has quietly left a trail of bodies
mats: ah, news to me
asciilifeform: if you want to be 'low tech' -- store on magnetic tape and feed it into iron heated to curie point; or similar.
bonechewer: the other OTP bit I find tricky is the following:
asciilifeform: mats: key is to make sure the 2 ends perfectly synchronized. (normally synchronous comms sufficient for this)
bonechewer: if the message header sez "This uses from byte 150 to 200 of the pad"
bonechewer: but it was spoofed by the adversary, and you overwrote it in sram, now you lost that part of key and can't read legit traffic using it
asciilifeform: bonechewer: this also discussed (if not easy to find in O(1)..) -- you authenticate message before acting on it
bonechewer: right, but then if you are authenticating with OTP do you have a chicken-and-egg problem?
asciilifeform: e.g. 1st 64bytes are H(64bytes of current pad block) (and not used for anything else), and if not -- nothing happens.
bonechewer: aha, that makes sense
asciilifeform: bonechewer: you do not, because you synchronize the devices.
asciilifeform: just about any hash-based checksumming will prevent anyone w/out a copy of the pad from forging messages. (you still gotta keep count, not only to sync but to prevent replays, however)
bonechewer: tempting to think about relaxing the synchronization requirement. For example, if the pad is much larger than the expected amount of traffic that it will be used to encrypt during its lifetime, maybe some probabilistic block selection can be done with low P of reuse
asciilifeform: bonechewer: if the pad is large enuff, and traffic -- low enough, then can simply e.g. sync clocks and advance the block at the hour.
asciilifeform: no reason to have a >0 prob. of reuse at all.
asciilifeform: not with sd card storing TB+.
asciilifeform: it's idiotic.
bonechewer: fair enough, I was thinking too small in terms of block size
asciilifeform: modern storage devices can store otp for several yrs worth of continuous telephone, for instance, trivially.
asciilifeform: the tricky bit is to get trng that can fill up a pair of'em in something like reasonable time.
bonechewer: yes, trustworthy TRNG should not use Xi Jinping's USB PHY
bonechewer: so a trustworthy high speed USB PHY is needed
asciilifeform: bonechewer: FG worked fine over plain rs232. usb entirely optional. ( asciilifeform actually advised folx to throw out the ttl cable which came in the box and buy random one from random shop )
bonechewer has hopes that this would fill the bill; an auditable USB SuperSpeed interface would fill up that terabyte SD card a lot faster than RS232
asciilifeform: bonechewer: lol where's the shield ? where the separation of digital board and analogue ? thing eats where it shits.
asciilifeform: or lol this aint a purpose-built rng at all is it.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: you understand that the difficulty is actually coming up with a physical process which yields multi-MB/s of actual entropy, right ? not usb etc
asciilifeform: (it's a physical entity, like energy)
asciilifeform: does not and cannot come from 'thin air'.
bonechewer: correct, this just lets you synthesize USB SuperSpeed in an FPGA
asciilifeform: again the interface aint the problem.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: if there's post-processing, there are post-processing artifacts in the output.
asciilifeform: iron law.
asciilifeform: linked piece is exactly the kind of gratuitously complex garbage that the swiss.usg types selling $20k+ rngs (which whiten!) traditionally push.
bonechewer: Control-F in the linked PDF does not find "whiten"
asciilifeform: bonechewer: they call it 'post-processing'.
bonechewer: They describe two "post-processing" methods, one of which is just taking the m least significant bits from an A-D converter if I am not mistaken
asciilifeform: delish adc artifacts.
asciilifeform: if you have adc in the circuit, yer fucked.
asciilifeform: rejected, for reasons including this one, avalanche diodes
asciilifeform: ( they also -- age. )
bonechewer: what is the failure mode of AGC?
bonechewer: sorry, ADC?
asciilifeform: bonechewer: do you know what a sampling artifact is ?
bonechewer: alas, no. I thought: stick to under the nyquist limit and you are okay.
asciilifeform: it doesn't matter how you sample, or with what, there will be patterned jitters in both time and voltage dimensions.
asciilifeform: doesn't matter. ANY consistent pattern and you're eventually fucked.
asciilifeform: observe that these abominations also call for serious cpu, and MBs of firmware, and typically is multi-MB of bugalicious c soup.
asciilifeform: for comparison, bonechewer , entirety of the logic for FG, 437 ln of verilog w/ comments.
asciilifeform: this is the difference b/w usg.academitards, whose primary concern is to make selves 'look clever' and 'moar studies needed!!' boondoggle pump -- and folx actually solving a problem.
bonechewer: hmm, system in PDF did not strike me as requiring CPU, nor firmware, until after the A-D; and authors were from China, not USA
asciilifeform: chinese academia worx very similarly
asciilifeform: ( the system, in this respect, is international, the selection criteria for academitards ~identical worldwide, the grantola often wired across borders, very little meaningful variation in degree of fraud )
bonechewer: Maybe I need to read more about jitter, but it seems to me that like any other sort of noise, its effects could be quantified, and it could be verified as being below some measurement threshold
asciilifeform: bonechewer: effect could depend on anything, incl. earth's magnetic field, whether 'voice of america' is broadcasting, etc. goodluck quantifying in real time.
asciilifeform: why bother with this nonsense, though, when actual solutions not requiring adc, optics, etc. exist ? is what i dun get.
asciilifeform: supposing you're actually out to generate otp securely, that is, rather than justifying a $10m/y lab budget and grad student sex slaves.
bonechewer: So what design TRNG could do megabytes per second without an A-D?
asciilifeform: stock FG yields ~7kB/s. 100 of'em i suspect still 10x cheaper -- and infinitely moar reliable -- than the linked horror.
asciilifeform: w/out adc.
asciilifeform: but these will fill no fancy dissertations. so 'uninteresting' to the type of folx who shit out papers.
asciilifeform: it's a solved problem. but there is ~no market in solving problems, but plenty in pretending to and 'drawing out the agony'.
bonechewer: scintillator plus detector? Isn't reading the detector output effectively a 1-bit ADC?
asciilifeform: dafuq's a 1bit adc, lol
asciilifeform: schmidt trigger.
asciilifeform: there's no sampling.
asciilifeform must bbl, bedtime.
bonechewer: good night, asciilifeform! thank you for the enjoyable conversation.
bonechewer: Look forward to understanding how one turns an observation from the analog world into bits without sampling. To me the two seem synonymous; but maybe that is just me
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043862 http://verisimilitudes.net/2021-07-07
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 20:56:34 verisimilitude: I'll write one eventually; I've something minor for release today.
verisimilitude: I miss feedbot or whatever its name was.
verisimilitude: Also, I found a placement for my BAT allowing me to use it a great deal without the previous discomfort.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043946 << I'm working on OTP software design. though haven't thought much about the hardware side yet.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 23:24:09 bonechewer: would like to exchange one-time-pads with his frens, store them in a phonelike device with no off-device interfaces save the read-only MicroSD slot with the OTP,
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044007 << no sync is needed, you have separate OTP for each direction of communication. So you can send 10 emails/postcard, and if friend never gets them, you just keep advancing OTP offset only on your end.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 00:13:40 bonechewer: tempting to think about relaxing the synchronization requirement. For example, if the pad is much larger than the expected amount of traffic that it will be used to encrypt during its lifetime, maybe some probabilistic block selection can be done with low P of reuse
mats: a trustworthy encrypted voice channel would b nice
punkman: on hardware side, would like to have: 640x480 (or larger) screen, keyboard, camera, microsd, microusb, battery
punkman: https://github.com/airgap-it/airgap-vault/issues/67 "Android 5 is the absolute minimum and even then you still to make sure that system webview is up to date. Can update it using google play store
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-06 01:49:45 mats: god, i miss #b-a
kakobrekla: you know, this brings up something that seems to have rang out over time
kakobrekla: its pretty obvious to me, observing the progression from ba beginings to delusional scammer fest that it ended up as.
kakobrekla: the point is that all commerce, all trade is in a way "scam". all of it.
kakobrekla: there a guy on twitter, he has me blocked, cant remember his name now, he wrote crpytoeconomics book (first as a wiki iirc, then printed akšual book)
kakobrekla: had an argument with him about this; his claim was something along the line that each trade that happens is inherently "good", as both involved parties are "better off" than before trade, otherwise it would not have happened
kakobrekla: i argued that in some cases this is not true, for example when you buy an iphone
kakobrekla: but akšuali, both parties in a trade must think they are getting the better end of the deal. not equal, but better. otherwise nothing will happen.
kakobrekla: obviously value is subjective etc etc yada yada
kakobrekla: but, i think if you can see things through this lense, it can set you free of alf-type of concerns
kakobrekla: trying to stay clear of it just makes you and idiot, not a nobleman.
kakobrekla: play or get played
kakobrekla: the narrative of the transitional "community" also turned from actually doing shit to a thing that looks more like academic theoretical wankery, not surprising. fiat not allowed, this not allowed that not allowed, errything is sinful, cant do shit except theory in vacuum disconnected from fithly reality
kakobrekla: maybe not completely useless, but not how you get shit done
kakobrekla: the only way to get in heaven is to sit on your buttkorn and do nothing, ever.
kakobrekla: on another note, davout, your argument about 500 years of bitcoin inactivity ... i dont like it. LN cant save you and if you do not have the potential to move coin avaliable at hand, its as useless as nfts.
gregory4: we need to bring back the OpenMoko concept.
kakobrekla: i need to be able to move it now if i need to move it now. in 500 ill be ded, who gives a shit.
gregory4: OpenMoko was a barebones cell-phone with completely transparent firmware.
gregory4: basically the Coreboot of phones.
gregory4: the Firefox phone was a similar project, but it suffered from the explosion of dependencies and opacity of protocols, typical of "open sores."
punkman: "but akšuali, both parties in a trade must think they are getting the better end of the deal." << somewhere in logs I think we had a discussion about how "both parties must feel like they are getting slightly bad deal"
punkman: as the optimal point in deal making
kakobrekla: if you are not getting "your moneys worth" dont make the deals (unless you are in liquidation)
kakobrekla: slightly bad is just short of perfect
punkman: "I could have got more money for item, but our deal is good enough and I would like to sell to you" "I could have paid less for item, but our deal is good enough and I would like to buy from you"
punkman: that kind of thing
kakobrekla: each party still thinks its ev+
kakobrekla: thats the point
punkman: could say "meeting in middle" in other words
kakobrekla: what you described, it just happened to me literally a few minutes ago, when i was extending the rent of the place im at now
kakobrekla: yeah i could push it lower probably.
kakobrekla: everyone is upselling
kakobrekla: thats how the world works tm
punkman: upselling is term-of-art is spamatronics, means selling useless upgrades/addons
kakobrekla: yeah maybe the wrong word for what i meant
punkman: I know what you mean
kakobrekla: adding margin
punkman: yeah everyone thinks they shit gold, more people need to tell em to fuck off
punkman: perfect example of "upsell": airport priority boarding
kakobrekla: some passenger airlines are still quite empty, i got a cheap upgrade to 'first class' the other day, my first time. hate to say it, but it was awesome.
kakobrekla: the cargo airlines are in full swing. in total (passenger+cargo) we are at precovid traffic already.
kakobrekla: this is worldwide count.
punkman: saw announcement that we are now to pay VAT even on items less than 22eur
punkman: (from china/outside eu)
kakobrekla: yeah eu reminds of only fools and horses more and more
punkman: china bought port in Athens many years ago, drowning in chinesium now
kakobrekla: yeah heard about that one from your homeboy yanis
punkman: easy solution to VAT problems, chinese/pakistani guy makes company, imports million eur worth of stuff, never pays VAT, disappears
punkman: "Keystone has pioneered the hardware wallet industry’s first open source Secure Element firmware."
punkman: then on shithub: "Notes:The self-destruct mechanism has been removed from the schematic as we chose not to disclose all of its functionality. In order to minimize the attack surface, we do not share detailed information on the Secure Element. For researchers who are interested in our Secure Element design, you can request we share the development
punkman: board, datasheet, and other materials under NDA (required by our Secure Element vendor)"
PeterL: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-01#1042241 << asciilifeform: did you come up with a solution to calculating the current difficulty for this system?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-01 18:14:44 asciilifeform: was laying this out on chalkboard, and currently stuck on the puzzler of 'how do peers know 'the current difficulty' ?'
asciilifeform: PeterL: nope. abandoned the packets-with-pow concept entirely.
asciilifeform: PeterL: shared keys strictly.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044074 << you then gotta have sumthing like this, or enemy can induce pad exhaustion
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 04:50:42 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044007 << no sync is needed, you have separate OTP for each direction of communication. So you can send 10 emails/postcard, and if friend never gets them, you just keep advancing OTP offset only on your end.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 00:09:52 asciilifeform: e.g. 1st 64bytes are H(64bytes of current pad block) (and not used for anything else), and if not -- nothing happens.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044067 << i oughta have spoken more concretely: without ~synchronous~ sampling. asynchronous, and then with clock domain crossing, is usable.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 00:47:00 bonechewer: Look forward to understanding how one turns an observation from the analog world into bits without sampling. To me the two seem synonymous; but maybe that is just me
asciilifeform: and for so long as it's with purely analogue/hysteresis device (in mine, used comparator) rather than 'ladder' or 'bucket' adc
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044077 << why all of these ?!
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 05:36:33 punkman: on hardware side, would like to have: 640x480 (or larger) screen, keyboard, camera, microsd, microusb, battery
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044086 << this was actually a lulzy speech by der fuhrer, recall, in that chinese restaurant in timis
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 07:31:38 kakobrekla: the point is that all commerce, all trade is in a way "scam". all of it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-13 10:03:01 asciilifeform: recalls wunderbar speech by mp in chinese restaurant at his timis '2nd conference', where 'there is no such thing as not a scam, errything's a scam from someone's pov'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 07:34:04 kakobrekla: i argued that in some cases this is not true, for example when you buy an iphone
asciilifeform: '...we need a word that describes the artifacts generated in response to irrational actors who demand to be fooled. As the old saying goes, “A fool and his money are soon parted” – at the fool's own insistence, no less! If the deer comes out of the forest and walks up to the hunter, it is not proper hunting, and this is not proper con artistry or grift or embezzlement or any other term
asciilifeform: we use to describe proper works of evil. If the victim, at the sight of the economic predator, goes into doggie submission, we must stop discussing the phenomenon in terms of conflict and consider whether what we are observing might be some strange instance of symbiosis.'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044090 << better than ~without the trade~, not necessarily thinking 'bahaha, what a fool he is to trade with me'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 07:35:13 kakobrekla: but akšuali, both parties in a trade must think they are getting the better end of the deal. not equal, but better. otherwise nothing will happen.
asciilifeform: imho 'all trade is scam' has approx. similar intellectual merit to the ameri-feminist's infamous 'all sex is rape'
asciilifeform: in actual life, 'trader' and 'scammer' are most often distinct social types. one plays 'repeated prisoner's dilemmas', the other 'single-shot'.
asciilifeform: in modern world there of course also is the repeated-scammer who nevertheless gets to push via tv, 'bitcoin magazine' (what's the current incarnation called? do i want to know?) but these are affiliates of ~official~ scams, and arguably a variety of.. tax collector
asciilifeform: (official scam, backed with force, is also called tax)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044092 << dunno how you managed to miss, but asciilifeform runs a small biz, where things sold for btc, in fact, and no sort of 'vegetarian'. and no one to date grumbled about being scammed afaik, is printed in big letters exactly what one gets, what it costs, etc.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 07:35:49 kakobrekla: but, i think if you can see things through this lense, it can set you free of alf-type of concerns
asciilifeform: tbh asciilifeform's chief objection to the 2010s-bitcoin-'sphere' scamologies is ethical, but not from pov of 'it is wrong to eat stupid people', but from pov that this is exactly what the reich wants to see so that bitcoin remains dead end
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044096 << imho all of it is obscurantist scamology -- make 1,000,000 ln of shitcoad so that ~no one~ can actually understand how $shitcoin works; exploit own 0days, ???, 'profit!111'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 07:47:47 kakobrekla: the narrative of the transitional "community" also turned from actually doing shit to a thing that looks more like academic theoretical wankery, not surprising. fiat not allowed, this not allowed that not allowed, errything is sinful, cant do shit except theory in vacuum disconnected from fithly reality
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044104 << there's strictly one way to make a sane portable device of whatever kind -- zero other-peoples-code. like in FG.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 07:55:19 gregory4: the Firefox phone was a similar project, but it suffered from the explosion of dependencies and opacity of protocols, typical of "open sores."
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044105 << often enuff, the grudge of both parties is with their reality, and not with each other ( you don't want to have a toothache; dentist would rather sit on beach than drill your tooth; both of you are together without necessarily being excited about it )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 08:12:24 punkman: "but akšuali, both parties in a trade must think they are getting the better end of the deal." << somewhere in logs I think we had a discussion about how "both parties must feel like they are getting slightly bad deal"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 08:38:43 punkman: then on shithub: "Notes:The self-destruct mechanism has been removed from the schematic as we chose not to disclose all of its functionality. In order to minimize the attack surface, we do not share detailed information on the Secure Element. For researchers who are interested in our Secure Element design, you can request we share the development
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 23:18:53 asciilifeform: rright and so straight into the arms of the scammers, who will ~always~ far more convincingly offer a simulacrum of 'secure and simple' than anyone offering actual security.
asciilifeform finally eaten log
kakobrekla: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044159 < idk about you sex ANALogy, buuut we basically agree that scam is subjective. from where it flows that anything can be framed as such. so accept that and move one with your life.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 10:27:38 asciilifeform: in actual life, 'trader' and 'scammer' are most often distinct social types. one plays 'repeated prisoner's dilemmas', the other 'single-shot'.
kakobrekla: anyway who cares, too academic and not ever science.
billymg: asciilifeform: is 220.127.116.11 your node? my crawler is showing that sometime in the last hour or so it jumped from around ~40 connected peers (mostly good) to ~1200 peers (mostly fake/spam)
billymg: another trb node, 18.104.22.168, also jumped in the same timeframe (from an average of around ~175 connected peers to now 1885 in the most recent poll - most of which appear to be spam)
billymg: actually all of them seem to be returning significantly more spam peers in the last 1-2 hours
asciilifeform: billymg: .27 is a test noad (presently not advertised). .26 is a noad belonging to a subscriber. presently afaik nothing can be done (beyond 'malleus') about pseudonode spammers polluting addr cache
asciilifeform: (test noad of asciilifeform's)
asciilifeform: billymg: this sort of thing, sadly, happens regularly
billymg: asciilifeform: it's consistent across all trb nodes that my crawler has picked up, and all in the last 1-2 hours (first time i've observed it since running this thing)
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: imho it is possible to 'feel scammed' without someone actually scamming you. and also is entirely possible to come up with a working def of a scam -- something you would not buy into if you had complete info re what it was.
billymg: asciilifeform: so possibly is passing phase and node count/quality will return to normal after some time?
asciilifeform: billymg: possibly. or possibly not; see if you can capture a dump of the spamola for possible inclusion in iptables, if this carries on.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-02-26 16:13:05 asciilifeform: bvt: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/wedge/wedger.py ; and use with http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/wedge/snap_49999.txt or hash file of same format of your choice.
asciilifeform: billymg: would be interesting to see what the pseudos have in common.
billymg: asciilifeform: the peer lists have been captured (the crawler is now stores probe history up to N probes, as set in conf). i'll dump the results somewhere permanent before the cap is reached
asciilifeform: ty billymg
asciilifeform: billymg: i'ma park watchglass on dulapnet later today/tomorrow, can resume regular survey then
asciilifeform: ( or possibly billymg's thing will eventually supercede it.. )
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: having trouble locating the thread on demise of pizarro isp; more specifically the "why" and the "how"
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there is not one compact thread re subj. see e.g. this thrd on my www (scroll to 'concretely..') for brief summary.
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo
dulapbot: BingoBoingo last seen in #therealbitcoin on 2021-06-30 14:06:28: ;;later tell CobraBTC: Ñeri, quien es usted?
asciilifeform: ^ the man-on-the-ground during these events and direct witness.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: mp sent BingoBoingo to uruguay (iirc was a choice b/w it and brazil) and when BB discovered that the only practical way to get irons there is to import (and either smuggle or pay 200% tax) , mp said 'oops' and put the isp (then called 'b.isp') for sale.
thimbronion: thestringpuller: fwiw even though pizarro went down, I liked the idea of having my own server outside of the US enough to set one up in Costa Rica.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform & mod6 bought, initially as even shareholders.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: imho errybody oughta have a rack near where he lives.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: it's the way to go.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: MP changed mind on "outside of US" and wanted you to then run rack? (this is piece I think I'm missing)
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: mno. let's do in order.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: soo we started with BingoBoingo already deployed as 'hands', and arranged for folx to slowly smuggle machines into uy.
asciilifeform: also started with a 42u rack, at what turned out to be the monopoly dc.
asciilifeform: eventually an unknown party ddosed piz's ip block, in rolling order. wasn't much by standards of 'civilized world', but turned out to be enuff for the shithole upstream gear to fall down. dc 'repaired' by unplugging us, and repeatedly lying about it.
asciilifeform: after a short while, we refunded customers, evacuated gear, BB burned the disks, filed lawsuit (went nowhere, unsurprisingly) and auctioned off all remaining assets.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo ^ if i missed anything, plox to fill in.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: after demise of piz (but prior to asciilifeform's 'sack' by mp) there was a pile of machines, belonging to former piz customers, with nowhere to live. asciilifeform was 1 of the contenders to make a modest micro-isp, signed lease for a rack in east usa within 30m, by auto, of asciilifeform's house.
asciilifeform: initially mp was interested, then barfed when learned that asciilifeform has no intention of 'scaling up' to include entire planet, rather than personal l1, in his isp.
asciilifeform: barfed conclusively when asciilifeform answered unambiguously that no, he will not sign a lease on a $5fig/mo rack 'for growth', wtf, has no way to supply usd for this, has no intention of selling btc under whatever pretext, and no, will not allow the operation to be subsumed into (arguably already defunct at that pt) snsa
asciilifeform: mp then excommunicated asciilifeform , proclaimed 'enemy', Officially closes snsa, etc
thestringpuller: aha. sorry if this seems dense, but I am still woefully confused on change in stance of "hosting in orcistan" being a problem?
thestringpuller: was entire point of UY right?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: asciilifeform opposed the 'all eggs in one basket' approach, was in favour of 'many cheap machines spread geographically'. but mp wanted 'meat work'
thestringpuller: 'meat work'?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:17:46 asciilifeform: thimbronion, PeterL : the other thing was his megalomania -- very much did not like 'little network for self & associates' but only schemes where 'put whole planet under the yoke one day! thousandyearreich!!!' etc
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: meat, i.e. people wheeling around crates, scrounging for food, outwitting bureaucrats, etc. rather than simply 'sit in armchair'. (even if the ~rational~ solution to 'where to host www' ~could~ be solved in fact from armchairs..)
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: lemme put this in perspective -- for roughly same current/bandwidth, cost in uy was TEN TIMES what asciilifeform is paying in usa.
thestringpuller: well of course fiber in Central-America isn't cheap which is why those hosted zones run the bill up
asciilifeform: (not even to mention the fact that there is not a national monopoly on dc here)
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: it was on the single solitary national fiber pipe.
thestringpuller: N. Virginia and Oregon datacenters are generally pretty affordable...
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: to conclude the summary -- asciilifeform's current isp aint a continuation of piz; but the same irons and softs are offered, incl. rockchip (afaik nowhere else avail.)
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: are you speaking of lulazon's ?
asciilifeform: cuz you can't colo at ~those~, lol
thestringpuller: no there are 3 spots I've looked at with fiber already laid in Virginia, South Carolina and Oregon that had reasonable colocation
thestringpuller: only small sample size of the area tho
thestringpuller: i think it's because the fiber lines there have been there for some time so maybe it brings down cost of bandwidth?
thestringpuller: But south carolina hosting much cheaper than the colocation place near me.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what is 'good deal' depends ~heavily~ on what you're intending to do (e.g. host a half-rack like asciilifeform ; or build a pleasure palace from the ground up that needs 1000GB/s ... )
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i'm not as fortunate as my best friend who lives in SC who has fiber directly plugged up to his single family house. runs personal data center out of would be guest room.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i've 1 of these also. it aint up to 'commercial' standards tho, no matter how you cut it (e.g. if falls down, you'll wait 24h or longer for repair)
asciilifeform: nor is it cheap or easy to equip typical house with dc-grade cooling, power, etc.
asciilifeform has Gb/s in house but not about to try to host people in it commercially
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: thank you for the history lesson.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: for particulars, i rec to read, of course, the log.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: much easier to find now with the breadcrumbs you've tossed, TY
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044217 << revisiting this: it was the 1st macroscopic, impossible-to-ignore collision b/w mp's lunacy and reality.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 12:17:16 thestringpuller: aha. sorry if this seems dense, but I am still woefully confused on change in stance of "hosting in orcistan" being a problem?
asciilifeform: and set in motion the events which killed his reich.
asciilifeform: after asciilifeform's 'unpersoning', mp has one of his cocksumers shop around in europistan, in vain, for a dc that'd eat btc directly, and without 'make account' and similar mp-allergens. (unsurprisingly, didn't find)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-27 10:54:47 asciilifeform: managerial types luvv these to death, they reliably produce 'steady labour' flavour that satisfies performance metrics, whether bureaucratic (reich orgs incl. usg) or sadomasochistic (mp's)
asciilifeform: *cocksuckers lol
asciilifeform: ('cocksumer' perhaps also usable word!)
asciilifeform: anyways last asciilifeform knew, the eulora thing ended up in a standard heathen dc on a rented intel box, sans FG, etc.
asciilifeform: where 'lived happily ever after' !
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: oh before i forget. is it possible to lease fg as part of hosting service? didn't see it on: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3557; i know i could co locate mine but given previous conversations want to use this one locally.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i do not have any remaining, unfortunately, to let out
asciilifeform at one pt had notion of making another run, and possibly of new type, but realized that massively -ev
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: outta curiosity, what softs do you have that could actually make use of FG on a server ?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: last i knew, dpb was still offering sealed FGs for sale; i rec to contact him.
asciilifeform: ( he purchased entire 1st printing of'em , and iirc still has some remaining )
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: experimenting with some game mechanics that require RNG - nothing revolutionary or mind blowing.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there's ~0 advantage from using an iron rng (and a slow one) in a game imho.
asciilifeform: (unless there's money involved)
gregory4: asciilifeform: so MP hated you simply because you refused to sign leases with American datacenters on his behalf?
gregory4: that is what the story seems to boil down to.
asciilifeform: gregory4: refused to end up in another piz-style ball an'chain
asciilifeform: where 'must somehow get 10,000 randos to subscribe' or go ~personally~ broke
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: I thought randos/heathens were not target market, what changed there?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: Officially, 'nothing changed' , he put it as 'expand wot!' rather than 'lease to randos', even though effectively ~idempotent
thestringpuller: this sounds more like Keith Raniere everyday...
verisimilitude: A PRNG is going to be preferable for a game, in most cases, just for the determinism, unless I've misunderstood the game this is.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: a, that one, i seem to recall. a kind of pre-bitcoinism mp, and one who actually did most of what the latter merely bragged about
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-17 14:19:24 asciilifeform: thinkin' about it in depth -- the weakness of cults aint that they're not an effective form of organization, from pov of command vertical. rather effective. the weakness is that even nominally clever fuhrer is stuck ordering disciples to do stupid shit, to 'show devotion'. whether it's self-flagellation, 'mortification of flesh', or using mysql, php, etc. the pathology is ultimately same.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-01-18 15:23:42 asciilifeform: which is another aspect of why asciilifeform falls down laffing when e.g. nubs shows up to whinge about 'cult'. asciilifeform co-designed that 'cult'. and aint the least bit sorry. and takes a steaming piss on 'normal people' and their fraudulent 'not being in cults' and equally not sorry.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-01-18 15:06:05 asciilifeform: on this subj, and iirc asciilifeform addressed it before many times -- the reason why will NOT respect whiners about 'cults' -- is that there is NOT in fact such a thing as 'not being in a cult'. the saeculum is ALSO equally a cult. and an especially grotesque one
verisimilitude: So, what are the thought's on Github Copilot; I believe it's a blatant violation of copyright, and some others have uploaded some of my libraries to Github, but MicroSoft seems to believe it can abuse the plebeians, and we'll see. I find it stupid and obviously useless, regardless.
verisimilitude: I figure asciilifeform won't care, since even if it used FFA, it would be worse than useless to butcher it like that.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what was this ?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i haven't knowingly uploaded anything to public shithub in almost decade, i think. so nfi what this was
verisimilitude: I'll fetch a link.
asciilifeform: lol, shannonizer for coad ?
verisimilitude: No, ``AI'' of course.
asciilifeform: hey why not automate the usual 'indian coad' generation process, where morons cut&pasta from shithub.
asciilifeform: seems entirely logical.
asciilifeform: i expect will create even moar abundance of 'a library full of books that took 50 man-years to produce each, inventing a way to cut down the costs to a few man-months per book by copying and randomly improving on other books, and then wondering why nobody thinks your library full of these cheaper books is an inspiration to future authors' liquishit.
verisimilitude: It spits out verbatim GPL code, so naturally people view it as MicroSoft trying to avoid it by making an ``AI'' argument.
asciilifeform: than already littering the net.
dulapbot: Logged on 2019-12-23 23:50:36 asciilifeform: but if/when you do, and did it 'under gpl', will be stolen 100% Officially. because half-measure.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-02-21 17:14:32 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it aint 'rolling over' to recognize that the pistol is a toy and pulling the trigger and screaming 'bang' kills 0 enemy
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-02-21 17:15:33 asciilifeform: important, imho, step in the development of any 21st c. thinking fella, is the realization that the legal system is an enemy, like cancer, it does not work 'for you' and if appears to be doing so, is simply to dupe you into delusion and voluntary compliance where otherwise would not
verisimilitude: FFA wouldn't be safe either.
asciilifeform: safe from what?
asciilifeform: from being plagiarized? how was 'safe' before ?
asciilifeform: when you publish $piece, people can crib it, and it is a mind-boggling imho case of delusion to pretend that you can do anything about this.
verisimilitude: Well, it wasn't.
asciilifeform: so then.
verisimilitude: Still, this is very blatant, unusually so.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: have you seen what most of shithub seems to consist of? i almost feel sorry for the folx who will try to use this.
mats: copyright what? read the agreements
mats: newbs signed up for copilot
verisimilitude: I don't look often.
verisimilitude: Not all code there was uploaded by the owner.
mats: anyway theres a lot of this tool proliferation, like tabnine
asciilifeform: verisimilitude, mats : anything you throw on the net, can and will end up absolutely anywhere, this is imho elementary, 'water is wet'
asciilifeform: anyways the linked items ('copilot', 'tabnine') imho logical products of the ongoing deskilling of the profession.
asciilifeform: use ever moar abject 'indians', moar money remains for yachts, etc.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-19 14:28:16 asciilifeform: billymg: there's a kind of phase transition sometimes called 'snake loses his legs'. where a vestigial/newly-superfluous organ atrophies.
mats: ive taken to referring to software as a lemon market
mats: in other keks, https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/michael-avenatti-sentencing-nike-extortion-case.html you would think a lawyer would know how to run a legal extortion scam, with decades of prior art
asciilifeform: mats: won't surprise me if d00d turns up as a $2mil/yr ceo of some tbtf 10y from nao.
asciilifeform: he's made of 'the right stuff'.
punkman: some github guy saw people on twitter trying to coerce GPT-3 into being indian coder. He thought "that's fookin perfect mate!", called up OpenAI "when can we set a meeting? we have amazing ideas!", and then Copilot was born.
punkman: might be pretty good for guy with 12 full-time remote jobs.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044246 << how the hell was this the first
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 12:35:24 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044217 << revisiting this: it was the 1st macroscopic, impossible-to-ignore collision b/w mp's lunacy and reality.
asciilifeform: punkman: 1st one, i suspect, that he could not 'digest' (i.e. rationalize away)
asciilifeform: '...and sentimental songs which were composed entirely by mechanical means on a special kind of kaleidoscope known as a versificator.'
magnus: asciilifeform: always wondered if the early tmsr group believed that 5-7 pairs of hands working w/o pay could maintain forked OS, toolchain, custom hardware, etc...
asciilifeform: magnus: not only 'could', but.. did. (for some value of 'maintain')
asciilifeform: magnus: moreover, good % of it still, in some real sense, maintained.
magnus: ah, figured the workload would become eventually become exponential... as inbox filled with backports, patches, kludges, etc...
magnus: just for the kernel alone, much less everything else...
asciilifeform: magnus: cutting off heathens does have the advantage of losing the overflowing inbox.
magnus: haha, tru
asciilifeform: magnus: the trick here is realizing that almost errything traditionally considered 'maintenance' is simply maggot brownian motion.
magnus: lol, until it isn't, I suppose so...
magnus: small changes over time snowball...
asciilifeform: consider that if the linux kernel was still REQUIRED to fit on a 1.44MB floppy -- there's likely be no 0days in it to patch.
magnus: little deviations eventually become large deviations, breakage, etc
magnus: ah, that'd be my dream... 2.2x forever!
asciilifeform: magnus: you find the people breaking things and kill them with flamethrower. or, more practically, cut their output entirely off from your systems.
asciilifeform: as we did with e.g. poettering.
magnus: that is one approach, sure
magnus: yes, what a mess there...
asciilifeform: it's the only approach that results in something that doesn't make maintainers want to eat their pistols eventually.
asciilifeform: there aren't 2 or 3 approaches. there's 1. this one.
shinohai: I am a very happy person since took asciilifeform 's lead and mirrored own Gentoo distfiles.
asciilifeform: hygiene isn't optional.
whaack: shinohai: I was thinking about doing this for centos...how much space does one need for this kind of thing?
asciilifeform: or rather, it is, if you don't care which to be, man or swine
whaack: I understand it's a bit of a stupid question since that depends on what libraries you include / how big the repository is
shinohai: whaack: distfiles/ only ~17GB which I don't consider *massive* real estate since has 2TB drive plugged into www anyway.
asciilifeform doesn't pretend that his gentoo vault is any kind of total collection of the known universe. contains strictly items which asciilifeform at one time had used, however briefly, across ~dozen boxen since '07.
shinohai: It seems to do most of what I want it to do, can always add ebuilds/tars of missing items (like php every 3 months when they do an "update" if ya need that for instance)
asciilifeform: i've added 2-3 things to the vault since orig. publication.
asciilifeform: (mostly on request of isp subscribers)
asciilifeform: what i really oughta do, is to walk the final portage snapshot and automatically hunt down as many of the tarballs as still possible which are ~not~ in the current vault.
asciilifeform: shinohai ^ good project if you have the cycles
asciilifeform: ^ equally for other folx
asciilifeform: the most frequent criticisms of the 'vault' are : 1) 'it has packages for which there are public 0days' -- yes, it does. 2) 'it is arbitrary' -- yes, it is.
asciilifeform: if $you don't like it, 1/2 bother you -- write the fuck in ! and fix!
asciilifeform: 2 specifically 'aint a bug, but a feature', yes, fucking arbitrary, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
shinohai: I'd simply patch self likely, like did for sbcl so could use it with a musl profile.
asciilifeform: shinohai: automating patches is half of what 'portage' was orig. for..
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044262 << money is always involved in emergent gameplay which is the back bone of virtual economies (see: Eve Online) - i think it feels more fair if the coinflip of the determination of an outcome can truly be called "random" vs say the lazy shuffle of a deck of cards
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 12:58:36 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there's ~0 advantage from using an iron rng (and a slow one) in a game imho.