punkman: "the market can stay cringe longer than you can stay based"
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2021-11-19#1000904 << added to spec the possible use of backslash escape char for this.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-19 PeterL: One question about the spec: is there some sort of escape character if you want to send a message starting with % instead of it being interpreted as a command to pest?
asciilifeform also added to 'rekeying' the condition where 'key offer's must not be identical. somehow forgot this yest.
jonsykkel: 14:00 stop station for update
jonsykkel: 14:01 <someone> one
jonsykkel: 14:02 start station
jonsykkel: 23:41 <someone> two
jonsykkel: here you wouldnt know about "one" msg until 23:41 as far as i can tell?
jonsykkel: shudnt there be msg to ask for hash of prev msg, that u would send to all pears on boot. so can getdata asap
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: possibly
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: currently you gotta wait for someone to speak
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: could specify that a 'getdata' with null hash requests the most recent broadcast msg.
asciilifeform will let other folx comment.
jonsykkel: sounds good
jonsykkel: youd get the same thing with direct messages i guess too
asciilifeform would prefer not to add too many moar moving parts, with the possible exception of the above, and of this
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-18 21:04:25 asciilifeform: 1 item still not covered is the 'gimme my ephemeral port' thing. still need to think re the most compact way to do this.
asciilifeform added some clarification to 'getdata'
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $57746.72
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : Could not connect! (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.044s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=710434
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=710434
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.142s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.139s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.183s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=710434 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : Alive: (0.292s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : Alive: (0.209s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Alive: (0.244s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.262s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.460s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
asciilifeform: meanwhile, vpatch of 0xFD pest spec posted. the working draft is nao officially of 0xFC !
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066703 << why do you work on p, pest, other items? I won't speak for you, but my assumption is that it's because you prefer to live in the world where they exist.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-18 17:46:26 asciilifeform: thinking about this -- it goes back to the boojum -- how wouldja 'put to work' proverbial 1000btc ? say someone brings it to you and 'how wouldja turn this into 3000 for me, that'd justify the risk of letting it leave my brainwallet at all?'
signpost: if mp had 1mil btc, or anywhere close, he had ample coin to start building the world he preferred to live in.
signpost: and to do this and still be mansa musa at the end of it.
signpost: and he'd have been richer for doing so even if the # of btc decreased a bit.
signpost: not a "richer in his soul" thing either, but rather because he can buy sane computers, can etc
signpost: as for us, yes, better stack sats and sit tight.
signpost not even king of the grass-hut-folk yet
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066723 << woohoo, just ate last version in the tub yest, will pull this one into my head today.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-18 22:49:51 asciilifeform: updated with prolly last change for this wk, folx who want to print and take to hammock, are invited to do so nao.
signpost: beautifully simple with room to (sensibly) extend. I'll have more feedback soon.
signpost: curious whether you see a role for working on obscuring which edges of the node graph are being used for direct messages. I can see utility in these messages hopping through friendlies when a station is under attack.
signpost: since encrypted to recipient, I don't see a problem with flooding my direct messages over the entire wot just like broadcasts. or perhaps I use this when I want to.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066728 << yeah, I'm accumulating money, but my goals aren't monetary. certain I'm not alone there.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 03:03:07 punkman: "the market can stay cringe longer than you can stay based"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 10:45:34 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066703 << why do you work on p, pest, other items? I won't speak for you, but my assumption is that it's because you prefer to live in the world where they exist.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066777 << the basic boojum is that narcissists have poor contact with reality, cannot themselves build anyffin (tho occasionally gather sufficient manpower that 'things happen' for a spell, but ultimately fuck it all)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 10:46:29 signpost: if mp had 1mil btc, or anywhere close, he had ample coin to start building the world he preferred to live in.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 10:55:14 signpost: curious whether you see a role for working on obscuring which edges of the node graph are being used for direct messages. I can see utility in these messages hopping through friendlies when a station is under attack.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 20:36:40 asciilifeform: ( note that notion there is to send a copy of the black to ~erry peer~, rather than as a net broadcast )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066779 << asciilifeform's point was that ~for a chrematist~ (i.e. somebody for whom metric of success is strictly '# of btc stacked') the only things that make sense to do w/ btc is 1) sit on it 2) devise scams to vacuum up moar
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 10:47:19 signpost: and he'd have been richer for doing so even if the # of btc decreased a bit.
asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
asciilifeform: *of life
asciilifeform: hence trb, ffa, pest, etc. ( historically, asciilifeform would actually prefer to work on foundations of sane computing per se. but switched tacks on acct of above. esp. given that asciilifeform discovered to his satisfaction that actual sane computing is a fab-complete problem. )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066774 << lulzy maggotry: 'The current maintainer of the existing /dev/random is dead silent since beginning of my work. Other Linux developers including core developers have commented and those comments have been incorporated.'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 10:38:02 shinohai: In literally random Linux crypto news: https://archive.md/3PEpU
asciilifeform: 'hey, new target for do-ocracy!'
signpost: indeed, incidentally I reread the bitcoin whitepaper last night too. would love to see an elegant rewrite *without the scriptlang* someday.
signpost: the basic idea is so elegant, and yet.
signpost has no delusions that this would overtake bitcoin, just oughta exist in a museum somewhere.
asciilifeform: signpost: it imho aint esp. hard to do a 'proper bitcoin' (recall various 'trbi' threadwanks). the problem is pow and 'the atc death'.
asciilifeform: afaik no known approaches to a solution there.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 09:36:03 asciilifeform: i.e. the 'responsibility collapse triangle' of collectivist failure where there's 'users' who 'just want', and a set of 'providers' who are to supply the thing they 'just want', and somehow they are to live happily-ever-after together w/out one sticking knife in the back of the other
signpost not in possesssion of any solutions to "mining is a bug" just yet either
shinohai sees signpost setting up those btc miner containers everywhere there is natgas flareoff and mining problems solved.
signpost: shinohai: some mining experiments aren't out of the question in time.
asciilifeform: shinohai: not really -- 'flare' gas nao no longer phree, now that btc miners willing to buy it
signpost: interested in the solar one, less regulatory bullshit to worry about
asciilifeform: shinohai: you'd have to have with what to outbid'em
asciilifeform: even pv panels aint phree
asciilifeform: that's the thing, 'spittoon is in one strand'
signpost at least has a relative to bounce ideas off in the pv arena
signpost: the passively cooled miner asciilifeform supposed would definitely have a market.
asciilifeform: if it's a btc miner -- yes
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's pov is that the process which 'monetized' btc prolly cannot be repeated. (and various scammer's attempts to repeat it are red herrings)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-17 18:41:38 asciilifeform: aand shitcoins will prolly always remain an attractive nuisance to the dimwitted who reason (correctly!) 'the derps who were there around shitoshi in '09 were no better than me, wai can't i have 1000 btc, maybe can if we can replay history'
signpost: curious if anybody has done the "cheap as dirt and zillions of 'em" approach to miners correctly yet
signpost: asciilifeform: nah, probably not, but perhaps could have chains that interact in some way.
signpost suspects the drug trade monetized btc
signpost: i.e. distributed early coin widely enough
asciilifeform historically very skeptical of 'interacting chains', on the btc end these always require prbistic 'softforkism' 'voluntary' narrowings of the protocol
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066828 << i suspect not, given as needs proper crypto
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:32:46 signpost: curious if anybody has done the "cheap as dirt and zillions of 'em" approach to miners correctly yet
asciilifeform: ... but also because only hardline chrematists have access to fabs, given the expense of the latter, and for these the ev calc. of 'trad btc miner' (i.e. densely packed, operable only in a dc, etc) vs. anyffin else is a nobrainer
asciilifeform: iirc a m^2 pv at high noon on equator will give ~100W at most.
asciilifeform: and, for passive cooling, you'll need a reasonably low-density die, and likely will get 10x less 'minerism per mm^2 of die' vs. traditional.
asciilifeform: the other thing is, pv prolly aint massively attractive to operators because it has to compete with 'phree' (typically embezzled) mains current.
asciilifeform: hard to beat 'phree'.
thimbronion likely will not be able to comment on the spec update until next week due to travel/consuming last drops of fiat liquishit for a while.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: the changes are (almost) entirely things that we've discusses in log.
bonechewer: re [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066777], relevant twitter thread: "To explain the nihilism of finance and chasing of optionality: By never actualizing anything you can pretend to have done everything."
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 10:46:29 signpost: if mp had 1mil btc, or anywhere close, he had ample coin to start building the world he preferred to live in.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: see also tlp's 'feeling like a trader'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: for a chrematist, the moolah is an end in itself.
bonechewer: sadly I have no referent for "tlp"
asciilifeform: bonechewer: 'the last psychiatrist', defunkt blog that was occasionally linked in #t days
punkman: "The idea for the LRNG design occurred during a study that I wrote for the German BSI" << german spook confirmed?
asciilifeform: punkman: these days they aint even shy about it
thimbronion: Incendentally watched a good film last night: Twelve O'Clock High.
asciilifeform not familiar
thimbronion: Relevant line "Act like you're alredy dead"
asciilifeform: popular 'pop-bushido' meme
asciilifeform: who doesn't claim to be 'already dead' naodays.
thimbronion: everyone wearing a mask for ex.
asciilifeform: eh next yr will be Officially mandatory to wear feathered cap instead of muzzle, or locket with scrap of parchment with word 'arsenicum' (troo 14th c. antiplague measure!!) -- and they'll wear. means ~nuffin.
bonechewer: On more prosaic matters, now that Sec. 7 of the pest draft spec describes an exception to the rule of marking messages stale based only on timestamp, Sec. 3.1.1 should be updated to explicitly note the exception for GetData responses.
asciilifeform: bonechewer: it should, indeed
asciilifeform: will go in 0xfc.
asciilifeform: also section numbering needs cleanup.
bonechewer: Similar exception for GetData responses should be noted in Sec. 4.2.1 "Common Prologue". Yes I'm being pedantic but for me at least it would help loading spec into head
asciilifeform: bonechewer: absolutely good point, tho
asciilifeform encourages folx to report such sharp edges, no matter how seemingly pedantic
asciilifeform: the specs needs to make sense on 1 pass reading.
asciilifeform: if at all possible.
asciilifeform also encourages folx to vpatch the spec. i'ma read and sign as fast as can. plox dun fughet to update the manifest when doing so.
bonechewer: exactly! There is some discomfort when a certain picture formed in head, then upon reaching the GetData stuff, had to be torn down and modified
asciilifeform: this is not as 'sexy' as baking prototype, but imho would really make the thing converge to 'kelvin 0' over9000x faster
asciilifeform: bonechewer: aha
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in wwwtronics mysteries (maybe billymg can solve?) -- in 'rekeying' section, section title fails to appear when rendered in asciilifeform's www css crapola.
asciilifeform: lol actually none of the h1 titles appear.
asciilifeform fucking hates cssism
signpost: asciilifeform: line 33 in your style.css is setting the text color to same as bg, or close enough
asciilifeform: hmm for h1 ?
signpost: slightly off on line count (it's what chrome's reporting), but it's `color: #F8F8F8`
asciilifeform: ty signpost , will look
asciilifeform: '...if you want to get a sense for the typical piece of content enabled by a totally uncensored communications system, check your spam folder.' << cuz wot never happened, etc
asciilifeform: signpost: ty, loox like switching it to 000000 fixed.
asciilifeform: the section titles still suffer from 'crushed' rendering in graphical www browsers, but nfi how to even begin to cure that atm
asciilifeform: lol wassat
jonsykkel: maybe gag with no arg should disaply killfilE?
jonsykkel: aka display
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: imho yes, should
jonsykkel: ignore paket is 428byte Message field full of rngolade?
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: well to be pedantic, is simply a packet where command==0xff. but recommended to fill it up with rngolade, yes
jonsykkel: i see