Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-06-30 | 2021-07-02 → ↓
vex: alf. it's onlt a few bytes per week
puman: "what actually dies and is mourned when actual people die and are mourned isn't the actual people that were there ; but the imagined people that were not, ever, anywhere besides the mourner's own mind"
vex: why'd you drop the nk punman?
vex: I read it like pooman now
puman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-01#1042058 can't be arsed to auth with freenode. I've been thinking of it as plutoniumman
snsabot: Logged on 2021-07-01 03:25:58 vex: I read it like pooman now
puman: just went through the saga of zx2c4
snsabot: (trilema) 2018-04-16 zx2c4: mircea_popescu: ahh that ignorant and antiquated notion, that "key size implies security size". or do you think there will be some amazing GNFS-like algorithms that come out for ECC, requiring ECC to use absurdly huge keys in the same way as RSA?
puman: figures that if key must be as long as msg for proven "perfect security", it follows that key smaller than message is not "perfect". and that all modern crypto is basically attempt to "show how a moderate amount of random key stream can be used to generate a lifetime supply of keys"
puman: Koblitz has some interesting papers on the subject http://anotherlook.ca/
puman: "newcomers to the field would logically expect that the problems that are used in security proofs come from a small set of extensively studied, natural problems. But they are in for an unpleasant surprise. What they encounter instead is a menagerie of ornate and bizarre mathematical problems whose presumed intractability..."
puman: I send young friends interested in "sekoority" to Koblitz, because they can only find meaning in credentialed authority, they wouldn't "trust" puman or ascii for that matter. Similar to zx2c4 fella, seems he even found a Koblitz paper by himself and came back to share with #t.
puman: If they buy into "modern crypto is shamanism" premise, than interesting conversation is possible. If they don't buy, not much hope.
puman: "I was shocked and dismayed that the AMS published Neal Koblitz's article without, apparently, any editorial oversight. As one who works in the field of `provable security', I vehemently disagree with most of Koblitz's points"
puman: "Emotional and unfounded attacks against a whole research area and its individuals, as carried by Koblitz, are of no use."
thestringpuller: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-30#1042035 << iirc D.CBSE was a synthetic, and would convert either into equity of coinbase when it eventually IPO'ed (it did), or shares on MPEx if it ipo'ed there.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-30 23:01:31 mats: just remembered D.CBSE after re-visiting mpex homepage
thestringpuller: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-30#1042049 << rereading the mike_c case and speaking with mod6 years ago, the bank run on MPEx was sorta inevitable. I remember mod6 being really worried, but eventually got paid. starting to think not enough coins to pay out at the time - always suspected smickles did the same to me when he was my broker.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-30 23:23:40 mats: notionally, my withdrawal was ignored
asciilifeform: puman: this was in a ~much~ earlier thread, and 0 to do w/ zx2c4 afaik
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-02-05 mircea_popescu: "What really bugs me, however, is how much publicity Koblitz has managed to get out of this. "
asciilifeform: ( and while on subj, see also )
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-06-01 asciilifeform: btw when i went down into the snakepit with several dozen renowned 'cryptographers' earlier this year, i asked a few folks about this.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform actually met, in the flesh, an entire regiment of those loathesome fucks.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-01#1042065 << if in fact p!=np, something like current-day popular cryptoism (e.g. rsa) could be 'possible' (i.e. not doomed to certain death)
snsabot: Logged on 2021-07-01 07:31:38 puman: figures that if key must be as long as msg for proven "perfect security", it follows that key smaller than message is not "perfect". and that all modern crypto is basically attempt to "show how a moderate amount of random key stream can be used to generate a lifetime supply of keys"
asciilifeform: but in fact we aint any closer to it today than in 1978.
asciilifeform: puman: koblitz stuck his cock in the wasp hive, there's a 'cryptographic komyooniti' very similar to e.g. the 'climate model' people
asciilifeform: they live on delicious grantola and do not welcome boat-rocking any more than other, similar grant-eaters.
asciilifeform has beaten the subj more or less to death in the old logs imho
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-02 asciilifeform: 'based on these unproven conjectures, and one or more unproven conjectures on which our logic relies, and one or more circularly-defined conditions, this scheme is secure, for our toy definition of secure that we will not share'
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-08-02 asciilifeform: one of these bargains is that you cannot build a career as a university academic with 'use rsa, kthx, bye'
snsabot: Logged on 2021-07-01 04:48:42 puman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-01#1042058 can't be arsed to auth with freenode. I've been thinking of it as plutoniumman
puman: I'm aware Koblitz peddled ECCisms, even twerked on stage if he was being paid
asciilifeform: of course he did
asciilifeform: or would've been outta job
asciilifeform: welcome to dulapnet , cgra !
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: are leases still available? or are you booked full?
thimbronion: cgra: indexed db of log links available: http://thimbron.com/2021/06/log-link-index/
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what are you thinking of getting ?
thestringpuller: something small. going to rewrite blog as just flat files rendered via python, and wanted to migrate it to more trustworthy place
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i rec the rk then
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: in fact i'm getting moar ips this wk (haggled for a while, finalized yest.) so will be avail. in not too long.
thestringpuller: trying to do math via http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3557 but brain so burned out right now
thestringpuller: Will likely just pay annually to make easy.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there's a handy calculator for this.
asciilifeform: anyways please read the instructions cover to cover, in particular the bit re: pgp.
thestringpuller: doing that now. possibly thinking of colocating my FG
thestringpuller: cause no place to plug it up now atm
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i'm hosting several colo'd FGs atm.
asciilifeform: (incl. mine)
asciilifeform: there is no extra charge for this (assuming you have one)
thestringpuller: Yea it's still sealed and everything. It is the collector in me no doubt.
asciilifeform hilariously, still gets spamola from the shop where i had FG baked, asking why not moar, 'reorder?? plz??'
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: qq. if I wanted to do OTP from the colo using FG as my RNG. would i encrypt the rng payload I send to myself to prevent interception? sorry if this is non-sensical question.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: didja read the link earlier re: what otp is ?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: when you generate pads, you do it with own hands, at home; then you transport the pads (not the generator..) to the places where they shall be used; then they are used, in whatever increments (historically, pages) which permit burning after use.
asciilifeform: in modern times this takes the form of e.g. 2 hdd's, filled w/ rngolade, and each block is erased after use
thestringpuller: Okay then that answers questions. "The OTP should consist of truely random characters (noise).
thestringpuller: But didn't realize "only generate in physical location"
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: if you had a magical rng which -- while being trng -- exists in 2 and strictly 2 synchronized copies somehow -- you would not need to transport pads. but no such item exists (or is likely to)
thestringpuller: "Only generate in physically present location."
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: the 2 pads necessarily have to be generated in same location, think about it
thestringpuller: Makes sense now in context of spycraft.
asciilifeform: ( there's a variant devised by asciilifeform , (though almost certainly existed historically, simply 0 mentions in public lit) where indep. generated, but still requires a meeting to trade pieces )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-10-23 asciilifeform: Mocky: it's an old idea of asciilifeform's -- otptron gets 2 sd slots. fill switch triggers fill-up of both with identical otp. then you fly to bananistan with ~one~ and trade with the other fella for his. then you both have identical xor of pad-a and pad-b, in the respective slots.
thestringpuller: Makes more sense now: "The major problem with OTPs, is their distribution. A unique set of OTP booklets needs to be issued and distributed to each individual spy or agent abroad. As the OTP was destroyed immediately after use, sufficient and timely supply of new OTPs had to be guaranteed.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: owning a working trng solves ~one~ traditional difficulty w/ otp; but certainly not all.
thestringpuller: Makes more sense now: "The major problem with OTPs, is their distribution. A unique set of OTP booklets needs to be issued and distributed to each individual spy or agent abroad. As the OTP was destroyed immediately after use, sufficient and timely supply of new OTPs had to be guaranteed.
thestringpuller: ugh sorry for spam
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 16 nodes...
watchglass: 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319
watchglass: 108.31.170.100:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-100.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.105s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319
watchglass: 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.173s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=689319 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.205s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.160s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.270s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319
watchglass: 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.248s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=412062 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.262s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.328s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.665s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=689319
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.377s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=689186
cgra: asciilifeform: fwiw, finally bothered with a bouncer, too
cgra: thimbronion: thanks! will check it out sometime soon(ish)
asciilifeform: a++ cgra . keep in mind that this is a temporary item, to be replaced w/ arsenet. (but not w/out warning)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:35:02 asciilifeform: the troo p2p topology i propose removes all kindsa fundamentally palace-flavoured concepts -- 'joining', 'kicking', 'banning' -- and replaces simply w/ freedom of association, i.e. peering & unpeering.
cgra: asciilifeform: yeah. i tried to briefly study (from rfc's + some) how do irc servers intercommunicate user messages. then you said this :)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-28 10:16:54 asciilifeform: has been reading the src of 'ratbox', thinking 'so how does it deduplicate messages..?', answr is, 'doesn't'
asciilifeform: cgra: apparently irc has this subtle braindamage baked in at algo level. and is, evidently, why all the great irc nets eventually not only schismed, but acrimoniously schismed and turned into palace-reichs and eventually burn down
asciilifeform: see e.g. this history re subj.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 15:31:54 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039833 << i may've let this slip, oughta answr directly -- what i'm proposing is to depart from last 25yrs of internet decay, where errything came to consist of 'herd of cattle' and 'farmers' to corral, milk, and occasionally devour the former; and instead experiment where people stand up on own legs.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : probably not trivially sewable outta existing irctrons after all )
shinohai: $vwap
busybot: The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 33425.35 USD
asciilifeform: reminds me, gotta add busybot to the botlist
shinohai: tyvm asciilifeform
asciilifeform: shinohai: currently all it does is to set'em to be coloured correctly
gregorynyssa: /quit
gregory4 had missed the original message about `dulapnet`, finally here.
gregory4: is anyone here excited for the upcoming Dune adaptation by Villenueve?
asciilifeform: welcome to dulapnet, gregory4
asciilifeform: mats: loox like umpteenth permissioned-altcoin-paypalism crapola
asciilifeform: mats: or is there sumthing unusual about this one?
mats: its a systemic review of the space
asciilifeform: mats: how wouldja describe -- which -- space ?
mats: crypto-eurodollars
asciilifeform: mats: you do understand that nobody would simultaneously bake a decentralized altcoin ~and~ honestly offer to 'back' it with whatever xyz, right?
asciilifeform: typically 1, the other, or both, is a straight out lie
mats: you understand i've been around almost as long as you, right?
asciilifeform: mats: aha, so i'd expect you would know this. so whence the interest in subj ?
asciilifeform: simply entomological?
asciilifeform: mats: pretty sure you were 'tuned in' longer than me, iirc
mats: some parts entomological, some parts exploratory, this is the 'kyctronic-less' fiatola you've wondered about b4
mats: i'm curious about the risks that stablecoins might pose to fiat, and where the levers are
asciilifeform: mats: in 19th c usa, recall, there were various non-usg-issued currencies; possibly will play out similarly
mats: yup.
mats: stablecoin issuers are now buying as much short dated commercial paper as the largest money market funds
mats: i'd like to know where i can pour the petrol
asciilifeform: i suppose that for folx w/ what to pour, it is an interesting puzzle
asciilifeform not spent time contemplating, rather like does not spend much on naval strategy, has no navy
asciilifeform: welcome to dulapnet, bingoboingo !
bingoboingo: Made it to this side, will fuck with the bouncer later
asciilifeform: i think this leaves only puman
asciilifeform: ( and jurov, supposing he's alive )
bingoboingo sent an email to jurov
asciilifeform: currently this is the most barbaric possible arrangement, there is no autofallback. if asciilifeform and/or his box get flattened by asteroid -- plox to manually walk to signpost(trinque)'s box
asciilifeform: ( see his www re where )
gregory4: asciilifeform: any interest in bridging "dulapnet" with "xrsenet?" that way, you can use "unreal" and avoid the 15 second issue with "ratbox."
asciilifeform: gregory4: afaik 'unreal' won't bridge w/ anyffin other than self
asciilifeform: gregory4: it sucks mightily, tries to force sslism, and is massive ball o'shit , even heavier than 'ratbox'
asciilifeform: selected it simply because it had a working dulap-gentoo port
gregory4: asciilifeform: you were able to turn off SSL though, right?
gregory4: I don't think we are on SSL right now.
asciilifeform: gregory4: i haven't tried server-server bridging with it at all
asciilifeform: my understanding is that it mandates sslism for it, and would have to be patched to even try
gregory4: asciilifeform: oh, it only requires SSL for peering.
gregory4: what a strange decision.
asciilifeform: the more pressing issue imho is this
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-28 10:15:42 asciilifeform: 'If a SERVER message is parsed and attempts to introduce a server which is already known to the receiving server, the connection from which that message must be closed (following the correct procedures), since a duplicate route to a server has formed and the acyclic nature of the IRC tree broken.
asciilifeform: i.e. that there simply aint a usable ircd
shinohai: wb bingoboingo
gregory4: asciilifeform: the "ircd" which I am currently using on "xrsenet" is my own implementation.
gregory4: I might try adding a stateful deduplicator.
asciilifeform: gregory4: is this item posted somewhere?
gregory4: asciilifeform: not yet, but I am open to the idea.
gregory4: assuming that you are able to turn off mandatory SSL for peering of "unreal," I could serve as bridge between "dulapnet" and "xrsenet" for a while.
gregory4: obviously, this is not a long-term solution.
asciilifeform: gregory4: i'm looking for shortest path to '1 talker -- 1 relay'.
asciilifeform: just about anything else is essentially same thing as what we have now, i.e. single point of failure
gregory4: asciilifeform: that path, IMO, is IRC with a stateful deduplicator bolted on.
asciilifeform: gregory4: can you elaborate re 'stateful deduplicator' ?
gregory4: server saves last N messages received from peers. refuses to pass on identical messages.
asciilifeform: i.e. 1 nick can't utter e.g. 'yes' or '$vwap' etc within <N min ?
gregory4: asciilifeform: that is a side-effect, yes. same person cannot say same thing within N message-cycles.
asciilifeform: not only this, but different nodes may have, at a given time, different states
asciilifeform: and thereby disagree re what's a dupe
gregory4: doesn't matter IMO, because the goal is to prevent cycles.
asciilifeform: tbh i'd rather implement this as a udpism w/ irc frontend for operator , and dedupe based on a random nonce field in ea. msg
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-23 09:12:36 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-23#1040513 << for one thing, if yer 'something else' doesn't have at least irc-compat. front-end, you're then also signing up to write errybody a new client. for all known os and ui paradigms. goodluck w/ that
asciilifeform: (with this as bonus)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-30 15:36:08 asciilifeform: wb signpost . asciilifeform had a minor thought, 'ddos-proof udp can be baked with btc-like bruteforce 'must have n zeros in hash' nonce' even w/out actual crypto
asciilifeform: because it aint clear to me that this'd be necessarily more complex than fixing an ircd as described earlier
gregory4: asciilifeform: your product would basically listen on two ports: one for peers, and one for clients.
gregory4: whereas IRC uses the same port for both.
asciilifeform: irc, there, simply to plug into existing client
gregory4: the BTC-like brute-force requirement is basically Adam Back's old idea for email-filtration, which inspired Nakamoto Satoshi.
asciilifeform was laying this out on chalkboard, and currently stuck on the puzzler of 'how do peers know 'the current difficulty' ?'
asciilifeform: gregory4: aha, 'hashcash', see thrd
gregory4: the way to know the current difficulty is to have a chronically updated chained ledger, where shorter chains are discarded when a longer one appears.
gregory4: the other way is simply for each peer to set his own difficulty in his configuration-file, and risk ostracism of other peers, if set too high.
asciilifeform: gregory4: this doesn't map to this problem, sadly. you gotta be able to drop enemy packets (incl. replays of your own, valid ones) into /dev/null ~immediately~
asciilifeform: without storing, necessarily, anything
asciilifeform: gregory4: peer can't 'set own difficulty' because this would require answering packets which come in w/ insufficient pow
asciilifeform: they MUST NOT BE answered
asciilifeform: in any way.
asciilifeform: or yer carrying your own cross
asciilifeform: i.e. helping the ddoser
gregory4: you are building a mountain-fortress.
gregory4: how about this: just don't reply with "insufficient PoW" if difficulty is not met.
asciilifeform: gregory4: and if met? then must reply?
asciilifeform: 1 of the appeals of udp is that you can operate 'simplex'
gregory4: let every peer manually troubleshoot his connection to every other peer. it is a one-time effort (per peer).
asciilifeform: until somebody gets flooded and then you have nfi what happened
gregory4: set the difficulty to X. then type "hello can you hear me?" if no reply, then set difficulty to X + 1.
asciilifeform: say he tripped over his mains cable. and now ~your~ cpu to its knees ?
asciilifeform realizes that the problem, as posed, may not necessarily have a solution
gregory4: I have barely worked with UDP.
gregory4: assuming that maximum message-length is < MTU, how do you plan to confirm that message was received anyways?
asciilifeform: gregory4: there is absolutely nothing particular about udp, it simply is 'postcard' w/ N bytes payload.
gregory4: AFAIK, where UDP is used in industry, such as video-games, a subset of TCP is reimplemented.
asciilifeform: gregory4: you don't need to confirm.
gregory4: asciilifeform: then how do you live with the uncertainty that every time you send a chat-message, there is a 5% chance of it not going through?
asciilifeform: gregory4: there's a thread in #t, where asciilifeform tested udptron across oceans w/ various folx, packet reception was ~100%
gregory4: asciilifeform: I didn't know that. nonetheless, you better be sure. even 99% is unacceptable IMO.
asciilifeform: gregory4: given this, plus the fact that w/ 'flood routing' one can expect to receive just about every message N times -- imho no reason to send ack's or anything of the kind
asciilifeform: (exercise for reader: by what amount does sending an ack change the probability of total loss of a message?)
gregory4: better be between two and three sigma.
asciilifeform: gregory4: imho suffices to ask to get the packet you sent, echoed back.
asciilifeform: (and this way the receiver doesn't need to solve another pow simply to reply to you)
asciilifeform: however this would mean that dest.ip cannot be included in the hashed-over payload
asciilifeform: (potentially making replays easier)
gregory4: asciilifeform: right, I see. echoing doesn't require memory-allocation.
asciilifeform wishes to encourage all tuned-in folx to contemplate this puzzler and write in.
gregory4: another way is to use network-history to seed a PRNG, and use that to give permission to a particular peer to determine the difficulty of the next epoch.
gregory4: however, he must make his choice within a window of N seconds, or the PRNG is re-seeded.
gregory4: this is basically how PoS blockchains work.
asciilifeform: gregory4: you haven't any guarantee of a shared history or of particular propagation speeds, though
asciilifeform: there is not necessarily 'a network'
asciilifeform: simply a bunch of nodes, coming and going
gregory4: asciilifeform: it doesn't need to be our own network-history. we could use hashes of recent Bitcoin blocks, for instance.
asciilifeform: ugh now bringing in one of the least reliable things on satan's green earth as external dep ?!
asciilifeform: as in what, i can't talk unless i'm near a trb box that's reliably eating blox?
gregory4: asciilifeform: yep.
asciilifeform: fuck that.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-01 13:16:40 watchglass: Polling 16 nodes...
asciilifeform: no external liquishit plz.
asciilifeform: even having to sync clocks is, imho, lethal.
asciilifeform: gregory4: centralization is like the vacuum of space, if we were building a space vehicle : it will always 'want' to penetrate. through ANY pore you allow it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-01 13:38:53 asciilifeform: cgra: apparently irc has this subtle braindamage baked in at algo level. and is, evidently, why all the great irc nets eventually not only schismed, but acrimoniously schismed and turned into palace-reichs and eventually burn down
asciilifeform: or seawater, in submarine, etc
asciilifeform: it is always, always looking for a hole through which to go.
asciilifeform: and then it goes in, and EVERYTHING you did was for nought, turns to shit.
asciilifeform: and you end up, at best, w/ mp's little reich
asciilifeform: or with the original irc, its fleanodes, etc.
asciilifeform: fuck that. all of it.
asciilifeform: decentralization o muerte, venceremos.
gregory4: venceremos = we will conquer?
asciilifeform: gregory4: aha (cribbed, of course, from the cubans)
asciilifeform: it is (was?) on their coins, 'patria o muerte..'
gregory4: I haven't studied Spanish, but a few days ago, I learned that ahogado means drowned.
asciilifeform: point being, there are things on which there cannot be compromise, or better to give up straight off.
asciilifeform: gregory4: lolyes
shinohai: $uptime
busybot: The bot has been up for: 2 days 1 hours 2 minutes and 46 seconds
shinohai: For some reason bot is 1000x faster @ responses here than EVER on fleanode.
asciilifeform: shinohai: not mega-surprise -- here, handful of folx, on a 32cpu box; fleanode -- thousands (?) on erry particular piece of junk
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