Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-07-04 | 2021-07-06 → ↓
vex: how to respect whn the rules change?
vex: ^epic track
verisimilitude: By the by, a very important consideration for message reordering is permitting better messages.
verisimilitude: Two responses from a bot, triggered by one message, won't be reordered if they can be sent as one message.
punkman: "It would seem that at BitChute decentralization is not so much a technical reality as a state of mind; like #AltTech itself, it is a brand, a category, a hip buzzword. I’ve seen this mentality a lot in people who use the word “blockchain”; this is unfortunately not my first time trying to figure out how a decentralized platform works only
punkman: for it to come up fully centralized and with a founder making excuses.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042576 << I can believe, but also believe "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 19:57:36 asciilifeform: punkman: i'm deeply skeptical that 2 messages i send w/ min. (say 100ms) delay b/w them (e.g. if client broke up a paste) will ever arrive out of order anywhere, even if no special precautions are taken.
punkman: a more importan issue I would raise is, how the fuck is this gonna work without any signing? how can I tell between asciilifeform said "asciilifeform: blah blah" and vex was drunk and said "asciilifeform: I luv cocks"?
punkman: the answer I've seen is "just unpeer vex". and what does it mean to "unpeer vex"? wouldn't all the peers have to "unpeer vex"
shinohai: lol punkman
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042776 << interesting, because I never looked into BitChute figuring it shitcoinery along lines of LBRY. imho they all eventually turn into "We're just a front end for streaming torrents"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 07:10:58 punkman: (from: https://www.dailydot.com/upstream/bitchute-decentralization-claims/ )
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042444 << think I'll do similar to this once I've reviewed entire log discussion, might help me clarify thoughts on comms discussion.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 10:59:40 thimbronion: http://thimbron.com/2021/07/the-comms-chronicle/
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042779 << a++ q. folx will exchange shared key over pgpgram, where, naturally, signed. so a ~direct~ message from a peer is reasonably known to be authentic. indirect (relayed) imho oughta be displayed with a mark denoting this, e.g. '(asciilifeform): kick me' etc.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 07:26:14 punkman: a more importan issue I would raise is, how the fuck is this gonna work without any signing? how can I tell between asciilifeform said "asciilifeform: blah blah" and vex was drunk and said "asciilifeform: I luv cocks"?
asciilifeform: punkman: at the same time, observe that we are able to have a conversation without even any kind of authenticity guarantees at all currently.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-16 10:23:16 asciilifeform: the authenticity and privacy 'promises' of whatever irc net are an illusion, and what better way to remind people of it than by replacing all auth with a toy lock w/ plastic key.
asciilifeform: when you have an actual need for it, there is pgpgram.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042780 << indeed, if you want to go beyond killfiling, and not see ~any~ conv. the fella was part of, would have to no longer be part of a net where others peer with him. this is, yes, a different experience than traditional 'palace' irc. i'm willing to live with it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 07:31:58 punkman: the answer I've seen is "just unpeer vex". and what does it mean to "unpeer vex"? wouldn't all the peers have to "unpeer vex"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 23:13:44 shinohai: Oh hai vex, I wasn't seeing ur messages until I figured out asciilifeform was talking to someone xD
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042774 << hilarious scamola, but difficult to sympathize with the victims, who evidently cannot be arsed to develop even basic literacy (to understand that a www service is ipso facto not p2p)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 07:08:59 punkman: "It would seem that at BitChute decentralization is not so much a technical reality as a state of mind; like #AltTech itself, it is a brand, a category, a hip buzzword. I’ve seen this mentality a lot in people who use the word “blockchain”; this is unfortunately not my first time trying to figure out how a decentralized platform works only
shinohai: I could do without the ton of youtube links that never resolve from the fellow, but otherwise meh.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042773 << i don't grasp this obsession with an imaginary problem
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 03:57:28 verisimilitude: Two responses from a bot, triggered by one message, won't be reordered if they can be sent as one message.
asciilifeform: shinohai: i think punkman was making an example, rather than bite at vex concretely
asciilifeform: example re algo, that is
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042786 << probably oughta expand on this, because my article on subj is taking longer than expected to bake. when you store shared keys in config, will store e.g. ' asciilifeform : 0cf9180a764aba863a67b6d72f0918bc131c6772642cb2dce5a34f0a702f9470ddc2bf125c12198b1995c233c34b4afd346c54a2334c350a948a51b6e8b4e6b6 ' and direct msg decrypted
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 10:41:59 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042779 << a++ q. folx will exchange shared key over pgpgram, where, naturally, signed. so a ~direct~ message from a peer is reasonably known to be authentic. indirect (relayed) imho oughta be displayed with a mark denoting this, e.g. '(asciilifeform): kick me' etc.
asciilifeform: with said key will display the nick from config.
asciilifeform: ... when said msg also starts with ' asciilifeform : ' naturally.
asciilifeform: if it's a relayed msg from someone else, will display as e.g. ' (shinohai): ... ' -- but will be emitted to client if and only if it is not a duplicate of a direct message from same (within time T, adjustable)
asciilifeform: if there's an equivalent authenticable msg (i.e. direct from shinohai , in above example) then ~that~ one will be emitted to client, which is to say the same message but without the parens indicating 'rumour'.
asciilifeform: so, to formalize, an 'authentic' message is one marked with a nick which equals the nick given in the config next to the symm key with which this msg was decryptable.
asciilifeform: a 'rumour' message is any other (i.e. one where the nick is ~not~ equal to the one next to the key with which msg was decryptable.)
asciilifeform: a network where erryone is direct-peer to erryone will result in no 'rumour' messages displayed to clients, with the exception of a case where a direct-msg packet is lost.
asciilifeform must bbl, but invites q's.
asciilifeform: grr, thinking about it, this is NOT The Right Thing. in fact better to have the 'shared keys' be used strictly as MAC, and omit the toy crypto entirely (it gives illusion of cryptoism; and makes relay unnecessarily cpu-intensive)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-30 17:30:26 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-30#1041916 << my current draft consists of a) for strangers, pow b) for folx who have a shared keystring (not long-term or esp. valuable) S -- simply demonstrate knowledge of S by sending hash(S+message+S), then don't need to pow
asciilifeform: so instead of symm.encryption, you have shared key play the role of 'S' ^ above. result is that you have 'unopposable' authentication between you and peer -- either can craft a message which purports to be ~to~ him ~from~ the other; but strictly within that relationship.
asciilifeform: and this rids you of the need to make the rumour vs. direct distinction entirely -- any message carrying correct MAC is known to you to be authentic, regardless of how relayed.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 11:02:40 asciilifeform: if it's a relayed msg from someone else, will display as e.g. ' (shinohai): ... ' -- but will be emitted to client if and only if it is not a duplicate of a direct message from same (within time T, adjustable)
asciilifeform apologizes to readers for 'live-streaming' the solution of this problem , rather than stating 'wholly baked' in one shot.
shinohai: Well getting ideas "out on the napkin" is what baked V, no?
asciilifeform unlike e.g. mp, aint invested in 'role playing' an inerrant god etc
asciilifeform: shinohai: for instance, aha
asciilifeform: ( for the innocent: 'MAC' authentication refers to any signature scheme implemented via hashes, used as a symmetric key, i.e. you need knowledge of the same key to sign ~or~ to verify. there are various schemes for doing this. )
asciilifeform: the major open q is what to do with messages relayed by a peer which do not correspond to an entry in one's wot config. there are 2 obvious variants : 1) drop 2) display, with 'parens' (see upstack) or similar marking.
asciilifeform: this requires more thought.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042811 << so I MAC msg with my punk-alf shared key. If alf forwards this, how can anyone else verify the original MAC? Wouldn't alf have different alf-vex key?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 11:15:21 asciilifeform: grr, thinking about it, this is NOT The Right Thing. in fact better to have the 'shared keys' be used strictly as MAC, and omit the toy crypto entirely (it gives illusion of cryptoism; and makes relay unnecessarily cpu-intensive)
punkman: MAC or encrypted packet doesn't make any difference, they are equivalent
asciilifeform: punkman: not entirely equivalent: you can relay a MAC'd packet blindly
asciilifeform: (whereas relaying a ciphered one requires unciphering/reciphering)
punkman: well how, don't you need to re-MAC with your own set of keys?
asciilifeform: indeed you would
asciilifeform: punkman, i suspect, is right, is a matter of taste.
asciilifeform: imho either of these variants is given here in enuff detail to implement. unless asciilifeform missed something.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042788 << I don't dispute that many of these ideas would work just fine for #asciilifeform. But what if punkman wants to have party with 300 20 year olds somewhere else?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 10:42:44 asciilifeform: punkman: at the same time, observe that we are able to have a conversation without even any kind of authenticity guarantees at all currently.
punkman: there will be a lot of "i luv cocks"
punkman: I think we are on track to reinventing the blockchain :P
asciilifeform: i must disagree. there already is such a thing as a pgpgram, for when you absolutely must know who, in your wot, said 'cocks' etc.
asciilifeform: the way to run a heathen pit with 300 unhousetrained morons is, naturally, as a prison, with a warden. i.e. traditional centralized chat/forum.
asciilifeform: p2p net is for thinking men strictly.
asciilifeform: punkman: imho notion of 'blockchain' for just about any application outside of bitcoin proper, is a pseudo-decentralization scam, there is virtually always a dominator who controls sufficient pow to arbitrarily permit/prohibit payloads.
asciilifeform: as pointed out upstack, the word has really become a reliable leper's bell for the most abject kind of scamola
punkman agrees
shinohai: Then you don't have blockchain, you have Ethereum database
shinohai: So just download postgres
asciilifeform: shinohai: i've lost count of how many shitcoins there are
asciilifeform: from my pov they're 100% same
shinohai: All of 'em *made inside mETH* now, "I heard you like shitcoins so I put a shitcoin inside your shitcoin so you can shitcoin!"
asciilifeform will bbl
punkman: p2p net is for thinking men strictly << so 10 of 20 unpeer vex, his packets keep being relayed, the 10 that unpeered vex, now have to block relayed vex packets, or else their "unpeering" does nothing. If they do, then we have situation like /ignore. You see people having monologues, when they are talking to vex.
punkman: "thinking men would never end up in this situation" is slightly lacking
asciilifeform: punkman: i think i understand fully the situation; it was very similar on usenet, where the only filtration mechanism was the killfile, and one would routinely see replies to killfiled folx
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 10:45:13 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042780 << indeed, if you want to go beyond killfiling, and not see ~any~ conv. the fella was part of, would have to no longer be part of a net where others peer with him. this is, yes, a different experience than traditional 'palace' irc. i'm willing to live with it.
asciilifeform: it is simply that i prefer this to the 'palace' life.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:35:02 asciilifeform: the troo p2p topology i propose removes all kindsa fundamentally palace-flavoured concepts -- 'joining', 'kicking', 'banning' -- and replaces simply w/ freedom of association, i.e. peering & unpeering.
asciilifeform: who does not prefer -- can very much continue to use trad. irc. 'while supplies last'.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042848 << i gotta bite this : 'the 10 that unpeered vex, now have to block relayed vex packets' is not factual; the 10 have to a) unpeer the people who continue to relay'em b) live with killfile filtration c) there neither is nor ought to be a (c).
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 11:40:50 punkman: p2p net is for thinking men strictly << so 10 of 20 unpeer vex, his packets keep being relayed, the 10 that unpeered vex, now have to block relayed vex packets, or else their "unpeering" does nothing. If they do, then we have situation like /ignore. You see people having monologues, when they are talking to vex.
asciilifeform: because (c) requires a hitler.
asciilifeform: this is the fundamental hinge, there.
asciilifeform: 'tanstaafl'(tm)(r), errything has a cost. decentralization is in fact quite expensive, it is why, if you think about it, so vanishingly rare.
whaack: signpost: not sure if this is old newz but looks like wot.deedbot.org is offline
verisimilitude: Poor Hitler has such a bad reputation. People should criticize the communists more.
verisimilitude: So the idea has transitioned from symmetric cryptography to secrets used solely for MAC; that seems easy to implement. I could use my libraries to do that, even.
punkman: I always liked the style of this item https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroshare
punkman: but the technical aspects of it are as dubious as anything else
shinohai: I toyed with that too punkman is unfortunate uses OpenSSL for encryption :/
punkman: https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/only-use-old-computers << fella would have been prime tmsr candidate
punkman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLBBGum0nhQ "Against Bitcoin Maximalism: Exchanges Can Print More "Bitcoin""
punkman: they can print "bitcoin" indeed, but not bitcoin
punkman: that 10+billion USD in Tether is gonna end up in megalulz
signpost: ty whaack, will look
signpost: currently gettin drunk with friends/fam on a lake, but will resurrect.
signpost: actually... works for me here
signpost: stale data, or just not loading on your end?
signpost: verisimilitude: I agree that the communists somehow get off far too easily in terms of aggregate-evil-score
signpost: see holodomor and etc
signpost: also looking forward to joining the gossiptron thread soon, but will be a few days yet.
signpost thrilled this is being discussed in earnest again.
signpost: that's enough lubricated candor for now. cheers!
punkman: https://peerlinks.io/protocol.html << perfect of example of "blockchain engineering"
shinohai raises glass to signpost [~]D
asciilifeform: '(TODO(indutny): find a mechanism to deter peers from spamming each other. Rate limit does not work, because the peer cannot be identified consistently in MultipeerConnectivity)' << lol
mats: we all have familiarity with tethers and tetherlikes as a kind of future mtgox, but the story is a lot more complex than that, offshore stablecoins overwhelmingly facilitate dollarisation and there's probably still room left to run
mats: tether clearly states they can turn off redemptions whenever they want, which helps their case when it comes to the possibility of a bank run
thimbronion is looking at an ircd written for python 2 that seems to work and may be a suitable organ transplant candidate: https://github.com/jrosdahl/miniircd/releases/tag/v1.1
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-15 15:54:29 kiwi_58: this was supposed to be b4 the "but then this :" post ...https://elevenews.com/2019/09/28/tether-issuance-correlated-with-bitcoin-price-surges-academic-research-finds/
punkman: holy shit "Tether claims to have $62 billion in reserves"
punkman: mats, since that paper was written, 50 more billion
punkman: $62b is around 10% of current BTC marketcap, not bad.
mats: everybody knows, has known for years, about the fractional reserve of tether, and many tens of billions have still poured in despite heavy suspicions of junk credit grades, because its liquid and kyc free
mats: offshore stablecoins aren't going anywhere, and as a submarine for dollarisation and future bitcoinisation, i think its a pretty good instrument for btc
punkman: lulz "Between June 1st 2017 and September 15, 2017, Bitfinex only had two customers deposit USD into Bitfinex.
punkman: Effectively, the “largest Bitcoin exchange”, and where “price discovery was taking place, was just two customers."
punkman: mats, who's even buying all these stablecoins
mats: none of this is to say that i approve of the manner in which they operate their business, but they can afford to do fractional backing because of the insane mountains of fiat chasing bitcoins
mats: punkman: everyone who wants to hold eurodollars instead of their local trash
punkman: "Tether reported that it’s one of the largest purchasers of commercial paper, but the traders in the commercial papers markets, are not seeing Tether participating in the US commercial paper market."
mats: thats not true
punkman: I guess they could be buying .cn paper, so the NY guys wouldn't know
mats: its nuts really, outfits like binance have done trillions usd equivalent in trades just this year, without physical headquarters/entities or even bank accounts, instead using stablecoins and partnerships with fiat payments processors
mats: in any case, i don't believe tether poses any danger to bitcoin, if anything its a threat to tether stakeholders and fiat
mats: (speaking to the endless fud in ratholes where btc is in a bubble bc of tether issuance or whatever lame theory)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042880 , http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042864 << it is rather depressing how folx have ~right idea~ but still zombie along because the avail. libraries are not only broken but fundamentally enstupidating.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 18:43:54 punkman: https://peerlinks.io/protocol.html << perfect of example of "blockchain engineering"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 16:53:55 punkman: I always liked the style of this item https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroshare
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042870 << somehow i recall hearing year after year 'this is the year it pops', and at some pt i expect that, like all other pyramids -- will do so. but when -- only the perp knows
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 18:08:48 punkman: that 10+billion USD in Tether is gonna end up in megalulz
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 18:34:51 signpost: actually... works for me here
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042876 << somehow nobody (not in english anyway) ever mentions the fact that imperial-era ru had famines erry ~decade like clockwork for its ~entire existence
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 18:36:01 signpost: see holodomor and etc
asciilifeform: shinohai: lol just nao somebody dug it up?
shinohai: I was talking to this other guy about fuckgoats and trng, and he posted that up and it spread tonite lol
shinohai still does trb evangelical work for all the good it does.
asciilifeform read linked pg, snoar
asciilifeform: shinohai: i can't resist to ask, did this evangelism ever once result in a confirmed case of a new, lasting trb noad ?
asciilifeform: ( or do they 100% of the time simply 'woah, far-out, but lemme get back to my beer' ?)
shinohai: Pretty much the latter, though the guy that started thrd *did* bother to fire up VM and was trying to build trb. Last I heard from him he asked for noad list.
shinohai: Then likely went back to beers
asciilifeform is not infrequently asked -- most recently by own brother -- 'why do you bother to maintain trb, run nodes? you don't win, only the fat pigs win' and never had a properly rational answer.
asciilifeform: i'd say to shinohai something like 'why not evangelize among folx who do actual commerce and could benefit from trb etc' but afaik these do not in fact exist.
shinohai: I don't have rational answer for asciilifeform re: that.
asciilifeform: is ok shinohai , i wasn't expecting you to
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042904 << in what sense are 'stablecoins' actually stable ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 20:56:16 mats: its nuts really, outfits like binance have done trillions usd equivalent in trades just this year, without physical headquarters/entities or even bank accounts, instead using stablecoins and partnerships with fiat payments processors
davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042681 <<< the bitbet txes weren't conflicting, there wouldn't have been an issue, had they been
asciilifeform: ( afaik simply is buzzword for shitcoins where perp claims he will redeem any # of'em for a proportionate, by some factor, sum of usd/eur/etc ? )
asciilifeform: davout: hmm
asciilifeform: ( how many were there? guess i'ma have to reread the '16 log )
asciilifeform: davout: you're elementarily right, of course they could not have conflicted.
asciilifeform: makes the episode all the moar wtf..
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