signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042500 << notably all clients are already logging messages to disk; client might get away with using e.g. last-n-messages as seen-cache.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 14:59:23 asciilifeform: ... even if you want to keep and dedupe against last mil+ of messages.
signpost: of course, the solution among friends when being drowned by old dupes is 1) hey bud, fix your node and 2) fuck you, I'm unpeering.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042507 << when one's symmetric secrets are burned by some unfortunated event, can just sign messages to your friends informing of new symmetric keys to use.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 15:10:55 verisimilitude: A symmetric scheme, with the secrets not generally being valuable, would work for me. Once I generate a truly trustworthy PGP key, I'm damn certain not letting it touch the Internet.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042527 << agreed, approximation is fine here. anything which purports to require strict ordering of messages can instead be solved by a sworn (signed) statement
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 16:14:39 asciilifeform: tldr: messages will almost always arrive in apparently-correct order. but when they do not -- live with it. it imho is a very small price to pay for massive reduction in movingparts count.
signpost: nature also gives no fixed universal ordering of messages
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042541 << lately, quite active.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 18:53:58 verisimilitude: This channel is hardly active enough for this to even be an issue.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042562 << aha, see how the complexity starts stacking up when one attempts to "solve"?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 19:41:37 asciilifeform: punkman: that there has the obvious problem of potentially infinite wait
signpost: now TTL, now etc
signpost: (one might indeed solve ordering, and loss, and so on, at a level of abstraction above this, but imho base layer has to be as simple as possible)
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042598 << careful in so restricting that you do not remove the possibility of sane human relationship. modern totalitarianism grows out of this same desire to remove all possibility of The Bad via "protocol".
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 20:07:46 verisimilitude: A better protocol restricts what each client can do.
signpost: this isn't to say that the desire is incorrect, just that it can be taken to extreme.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1044866 << in asciilifeform's current draft, there's 64bit epoch in the hmac-signed packet, and stations are expected to be within +/-15min of one another (quite achievable w/out ntpisms imho.) antidupe cache keeps last hour of received material, or 1MB, whichever is greater. if |t-current| >15m on incoming packet -- rejected.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 13:13:58 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042500 << notably all clients are already logging messages to disk; client might get away with using e.g. last-n-messages as seen-cache.
asciilifeform: ( on top of this , 1byte 'bounce count' incremented by a (properly working) station when txing; and station receiver if exceeds $constant . )
asciilifeform: this is moar than sufficient to avoid 'storm'.
asciilifeform was reading b00k by the perpetrator of 'spanning tree protocol' re arpa history and storms where ~all~ of arpa had to be reset manually etc. lulzy.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-10 17:45:07 asciilifeform: while writing ('1 step forward, 2 steps back', i add 10kB and then 'too long.. cut!') realized : the 'spanning tree protocol' was the 'great invention' that in fact fucked the original p2p-icity of arpanet! and continues to fuck today!
asciilifeform: * station receiver drops if exceeds
signpost: yep that makes sense.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042678 << in retrospect this chinese miner conspiracy fits right into "coke paranoia"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 22:36:22 asciilifeform: punkman: start of 'day x' thread for thread-completeness.
signpost has also seen alcoholics succumb to paranoia
asciilifeform: signpost: the tricky bit in protocol so far (on asciilifeform's chalkboard) is how to prevent station from relaying to irc console a packet as 'hearsay' that you 0,1sec later get the ~original~ version of, from vagaries of the net
asciilifeform: seems to necessitate a 'sliding window' for these.
asciilifeform continues to think..
asciilifeform: ('originator' version -- directly/authenticably from the peer who keyed it in)
signpost: the hearsay item differs how?
asciilifeform: signpost: it differs strictly in that handle(peer from whom received, by way of hmac ver.) != handle in packet
asciilifeform writing very pedantic definition list for these..
asciilifeform: 'If the Handle in an incoming packet is equal to the Handle given in the station's WOT for the peer who had signed this packet,
asciilifeform: the message M carried in such a packet is termed "immediate".'
signpost: curious whether these cases can be made equivalent, but will want to eat the proper doc
asciilifeform: 'If the Handle of an incoming packet does not equal the Handle given in the receiving station's WOT for the peer from whom it
asciilifeform: had come -- the message M in such a packet is termed "hearsay".'
asciilifeform: ^ pasta from current draft.
signpost: suppose we're not onioning here, so it's not clear how one would make equivalent
asciilifeform: signpost: they're handled exactly the same
asciilifeform: except for irc front end, if 'hearsay' then handle in parens.
asciilifeform: (indicating that the message did not come directly from your peer who uses this handle)
signpost: yeah, what I'd want to do is alter the client to collect these as one logical line
signpost: x message came with 5 echos and no original
asciilifeform: signpost: the string $handle+$message is, here, definitionally identical
signpost: y message came from horses mouth and 3 echos
asciilifeform: so in any event handled as 1 line
asciilifeform: dupes simply thrown.
asciilifeform: what i was speaking of upstack, is the oddball case where N 'hearsay' copies of item come ~before~ the original.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's current proposed answer to this is to buffer all hearsays for e.g. 1sec.
signpost: yeah, my thought is that this is an edge-case that eventually stops mattering when somebody writes a client with this protocol in mind
signpost: I don't so much care, and at any rate it'd be interesting to see how often it happens
asciilifeform: ( while immediates go straight to console and dedupe cache )
asciilifeform: signpost: i dun expect it'll matter, aha.
asciilifeform: signpost: since model is 'flood routing', algo does not treat 9000 echos differently from 3
asciilifeform: further pasta: 'Packets propagate from peer to peer; a set of stations such that each member of it will eventually receive a packet broadcast by any other member is referred to as a "net."'
asciilifeform: the only 'special', if you will, type of packet, is where it is marked (in the current variant : packet.handle == sendingpeer.handle) as 'original' i.e. a direct peer of yours indicates that he had produced it.
asciilifeform: there's a 'command' field, if it's 0 then packet is rebroadcast 'shotgun', if 1 -- it's a 'direct' msg (i.e. sender politely asked you not to broadcast, tho obv. can't stop you), that's it for 'types'.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042791 << imho the pressure this creates is constructive. one can block at client level, but really oughta curate friends that don't have friends that piss on your couch.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 10:45:13 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042780 << indeed, if you want to go beyond killfiling, and not see ~any~ conv. the fella was part of, would have to no longer be part of a net where others peer with him. this is, yes, a different experience than traditional 'palace' irc. i'm willing to live with it.
asciilifeform: signpost: i advocate a 'measure 7 times, cut 1nce' approach, aha, to peering.
asciilifeform: the 'promiscuous' mp-style 'let's erryone welcome the whore' approach of #t is not a good fit for p2pism. (it can be used by ~individual~ station, of course.)
signpost: I was just reaching where the PoW was lopped off the design, and I agree. randos are the responsibility of a particular station; I don't see much reason to bake everymen into the protocol, and wager it would come with unforseen cost, as always does.
signpost: can do the PoW thing too, just as an entirely separate item
asciilifeform: the pow thing imho does not belong anywhere near the fundamental wot-based item.
asciilifeform: folx who want to build guest toilets can gate'em any way they like, incl. pow, of course.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042926 << that one dies leaves only picking which passtimes suit best.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-05 21:54:06 asciilifeform: is not infrequently asked -- most recently by own brother -- 'why do you bother to maintain trb, run nodes? you don't win, only the fat pigs win' and never had a properly rational answer.
signpost built a trb on pentacle not too long ago, is the one currently chugging through 689k
asciilifeform: oh neato
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1042964 << bwahaha, I've been referring to the masks as "face panties". looks like kakobrekla also.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-06 06:13:44 punkman: guess he has twatter https://twitter.com/kakobrekla
asciilifeform normally refs as 'muzzles'
signpost: also this, and clearly at this point folks just like 'em, will wear indefinitely
asciilifeform: 'send me the muzzle, the one that you gnaw on...'(tm)(r)('everything2')
asciilifeform: as i understand, in asia already fashionable for decades.
asciilifeform: (rather like e.g. hats in europistan, went in, went out, now back like-so..)
signpost: I suspect certain poorly-socialized folks are terrified of faces.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1043249 << signpost was startup poorfag through much of this period, ate most of his BTC much later.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-06 16:42:25 asciilifeform: '09-most of '11
signpost: still feels cheap
asciilifeform: signpost: elaborate re 'feels cheap' ?
signpost bought in 100s, 1000s, 10000s, after blow-off tops
signpost: given the longterm value of a USD approaches zero, kinda hard to say when BTC is too expensive.
signpost would buy houses, but not now, and would buy stocks, but not now, etc
asciilifeform must confess that it does not to him 'feel cheap'. consider, could run isp for 20yrs and still not make back the 5btc asciilifeform lost on the 'alphago bet' on bbet
asciilifeform: pretty much nuffin one can do today will make serious diff in the size of yer 'hodl' (unless either yer 'hodl' is miniature, or yer fiatola budget is princely)
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-17#1012479 << been rollin this off gradually into better things than USD
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-17 13:56:02 trinque: was just in a business I don't want to spend the rest of my life in, and an exit presented itself
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1044954 << this aint quite same thing as 'buying power of btc climbs]
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 14:46:25 signpost: given the longterm value of a USD approaches zero, kinda hard to say when BTC is too expensive.
dulapbot: (alethepedia) 2020-10-11 asciilifeform: thimbronion: the altcoinists -- sure . but i was speaking of the fact that the exch rate prolly aint growing another 0 -- or rather, not w/out the dollar price of archaetypical sandwich also growing a zero.
signpost: wouldn't say it was princely, more like "retire early if I don't fuck up handling it"
whaack: asciilifeform: The relatively small gains from buying now helps you hodl your hodl
asciilifeform: signpost: if this makes sense -- adjusted for 'buying power of usd' , btc today is still more or less at ~10k
asciilifeform: whaack: how so ?
signpost: asciilifeform: even if that's the case, stop-loss by moving out of USD is rational
whaack: it's still appears to be a statistically +EV move so buying now actually helps you not dig into your original stash
signpost: but I think there's more money to come into BTC, the mountains mats referred to
whaack: it still*
signpost: asciilifeform: I put even odds on the central bank causing deflation (crash of asset prices) as inflation. can crash the car in many ways.
signpost: if that occurs, will buy a shitload of land, most likely.
whaack: asciilifeform: I made a point to someone here that btc may be a more stable measure of value for property in these parts of CR
asciilifeform: signpost: 'in meltdown, all the uncorrelated vars become correlated'(tm), rather how errything on a plane breaks down simult. when it hits a mountain
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043301 << wasn't clear to me that you were doing other than trolling after that, but I never knew ya that well. I also barfed in time.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 10:58:04 kakobrekla: its like i gave you "a++" platform to get the fuck out, and you poor fuckers walk over me
signpost: asciilifeform: lol aha
signpost: I also don't care if I end up poor again, am simple.
whaack: asciilifeform: I'm going to include your 'kludge warcrime' patch and put my trb bot in here if you don't mind...there may be some join/part spam while i work out some kinks.
signpost: upstack, I hung on because the tech contemplated in tmsr, and the culture req'd to sustain it, I saw nowhere else. still don't.
asciilifeform never boughts lands, always seemed like very risky move -- not only there is no limit to what the reich decides to tax from it, but in usa 'over 9000' ways to dislodge you from it or otherwise make unusable ('wetlands!!!') w/out compensation
asciilifeform: whaack: don't hesitate to plug in bot
signpost: yeah, there's zero-risk-yield nowhere
asciilifeform: signpost: the other thing about land, it 'ties you to the soil', bad enuff that i've elderly relatives, leased racks, etc. in $shithole
asciilifeform would like to be ~less~ tied, rather than moar..
signpost: folks who can point me to a forest approximating Maine with a friendlier regime are invited to write in.
signpost doesn't expect to escape the reich; haven't found an agreeable alternative
asciilifeform admits, far moar interested in escaping 'arbeit macht frei' than reich per se.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 17:36:06 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: thing is, i'm only interested in escape if also comes with escape from working.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 20:59:41 asciilifeform: working for coupla days nao on a draft of the p2p algo. but nowhere near done yet, it is getting tiny scraps of time left over from gruntwork
asciilifeform: tangentially, imho absolute best thing that could happen to btc from 'actual commerce' pov -- is that it were to fall to e.g. 100$ and stay there for next decade.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:49:13 asciilifeform: imho thing to do is to develop ~actual commerce~ in btc.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043514 << meter also evil? gram?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 16:01:15 verisimilitude: Money itself is evil.
asciilifeform: because, as things now, there is absolutely ~nothing~ productive you can do that will get rewarded 1/1000th as much as 'having loaded up on hodl in 2011'
signpost: USD can die for a long time, but not forever. seems unavoidable that "while system is dying, best move is to hoard and wait"
asciilifeform: actual commerce, i.e. the kind where you MAKE things, sell'em, do actual services for people, it is -- punished -- by the volatility
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:05:38 asciilifeform: mats: explain to me how volatility 'doesn't hurt' say a hypothetical asciilifeform who actually needs (as mp would have had it, if i'd have agreed to take the $10k/mo rack) the coin to cover the bill
signpost: seems like volatility is decreasing somewhat. ~60k to ~30k is tame by historic standards (though I'm not calling a bottom)
asciilifeform: signpost: imho the insight there is that it aint a scalar, and the vantage point matters -- to you and i, 60k->30k could be entirely uninteresting ; to someone who bought at 60 and now needs to get benjies ~today~ while 30 -- very interesting.
mats: https://www.wired.com/story/the-full-story-of-the-stunning-rsa-hack-can-finally-be-told phished w/ a flash 0day and mimikatz to pivot l0l
asciilifeform: wb mats
signpost: asciilifeform: true of many investments, gotta be able to hold
asciilifeform: mats: could've sworn this was in log..
asciilifeform: (apparently not)
signpost groans at stunning-rsa-hack, "bet it's that RSA", and yep
asciilifeform: could 'tldr' $piece as 'centralized pseudo-crypto scammer has his master key stolen, blames designated emmanuel goldsteins'
mats: whole story is hilarious, from hamfisted 'we are super ethical to our customers' advertisement to 'we installed butcher paper to beat laser mics'
asciilifeform: mats: unmistakeable 'cocaine smell' there, eh.
mats: masters of the cyber
asciilifeform: is american thing, this 'hamster spins in wheel' sort of frenetic 'activity' these folx brag about
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 17:03:37 davout: let's make it a scuba-diving themed get together
gregory4: I refuse to read Wired now, having run into several exceedingly poor articles of theirs, including "The Curse of Xanadu."
mats: i love masks, gonna wear it forever now
mats: don't have to breathe the weird old milk white man sweat smell in public
asciilifeform: mats: i've one w/ the beak..
signpost: mats: I think it's the diet of poison. I smell fine, even to azns!
gregory4: mats: is that sentence supposed to be parsed as "old, milk-white man-sweat" or "old-milk white-man sweat?"
mats: lol, latter
asciilifeform: heh, this is reminiscent of 19th c. usa 'the italians, their garlic sweats...' lulz
mats: i dunno how it works, think some people just shovel wheels of cheese in their face before bed
asciilifeform: '$foreigndevil and his $unspeakablefood'
signpost: yeah, but this time it's the fake estrogens and pesticide
mats: a friend once described 'night cheese', where he wakes up hungry and visits fridge
asciilifeform: mats: the substant, in such cases, is afaik virtually never anyffin oldworlder would recognize as 'cheese'
signpost figures these creatures are in a permanent immune reaction, thus "smell sick"
signpost: also fucked hormones, etc
asciilifeform: there were rich gluttons in 19th c, and fuck, back in babylon, none of'em resembled the creatures from BB's 'beetus' photos
gregory4: asciilifeform: Velveeta is, in fact, one of the things which I miss about America.
asciilifeform: gregory4: i met once australian who missed 'vegemite'. (then found that it is stocked in shops here..)
signpost: I miss camel wides, but you know
asciilifeform: (for the innocent -- strange yeast extract thing, resembles food in 'toothpaste tubes' for cosmonauts)
gregory4: when I was younger, I heard the term Vegemite and looked it up on Wikipedia. didn't understand article at all.
asciilifeform encountered subj in 'alt.tasteless'
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043718 << gotta ask, why is greece worth the $250k?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 17:34:20 kakobrekla: lemme know when you want to actually move out of usganistan, i cant promise you shit aprat from that i will try to help you out. 250k for greece shouldnt be an impossible number.
asciilifeform: signpost: don't miss the slightly later '30 cents / kW-hr.' greece thread..
asciilifeform: congrats whaack
asciilifeform: whaack: does that thing take cmds?
whaack: was twaeaking the kludge
gregory4: so what is the feature of this robot?
whaack: yeah.. one second, going to reconnect with the version on your server
whaack: this is my local bot which is only on block 350k or so
signpost has also explored the various "buy into $island" paths, figures this gets him about what heading off to the woods gets, at greater expense
signpost: i.e. can still be hunted if whichever meat-empire wishes
signpost: also there's the 30-50% tax haircut to exit
asciilifeform: signpost: the uruguay thing admittedly soured asciilifeform on 'escapes' to orcistans. who will smuggle in suitcases for me machines from usa , if i lived there w/ BB ? or, what, pay 300% 'vat' ??
asciilifeform: signpost: it's a shite deal even if no one is hunting you, is my current understanding
asciilifeform: unless you have some 'in' in a ~particular~ one
signpost: right, leaving what
mats: signpost: only way to get out of it is to be suborned by the other empire
signpost: mats: correct
mats: so, visit hk, walk away from tax obligations
signpost: mats: iirc you fit better into azn-wot than I do
asciilifeform: in usa there's a subculture of 'dissidents' who masturbate to singapore, of all places. at one pt i tried to figure out why, failed
asciilifeform: dun seem like any of'em have ever been there or even read..
signpost: doesn't much matter to me which bureaucrats eat my taxes
mats: sg (and ru) has the much maligned, managed model of democracy usa is destined for
mats: and no crypto taxes
whaack: !e height
whaack: !e help
trbexplorer: whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-merkle-root, view-block, verify-all, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance
signpost: neato whaack
mats: can i pm trbexplorer with cmds?
whaack: !e view-block 100000
trbexplorer: height: 100000
trbexplorer: size: 957
trbexplorer: version: 1
trbexplorer: prev_hash: 000000000002d01c1fccc21636b607dfd930d31d01c3a62104612a1719011250
trbexplorer: hash: 000000000003ba27aa200b1cecaad478d2b00432346c3f1f3986da1afd33e506
trbexplorer: merkle_root: f3e94742aca4b5ef85488dc37c06c3282295ffec960994b2c0d5ac2a25a95766
trbexplorer: timestamp: 1293623863
trbexplorer: target: 453281356
trbexplorer: nonce: 274148111
whaack: mats: atm no, this is high on the todo list
signpost: whaack: you're welcome to fart those to paste.deedbot.org if you like
signpost: i.e. multi-line outputs
gregory4: whaack: is it possible to get transactions by address of sender/recipient?
asciilifeform doesn't actually mind having'em here, so long as they aint multi-MB
signpost: ah cool, doesn't bother me any.
whaack: all commands can have the output redirected to deedbot, and all arguments can be passed in through deedbot as well
whaack: !e view-block -paste 100000
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045064 << asciilifeform's model is 'whole picture', sees e.g. rent as a form of tax, and considers such q's as 'can get white man's food there? at what cost?' -- and not merely Official tax collected by official crown in $locale
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 15:28:18 mats: and no crypto taxes
whaack: ^ example of output sent to deedbot
signpost: ha neat
whaack: !e view-block http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=8Ry_
trbexplorer: height: 250000
trbexplorer: size: 95451
trbexplorer: version: 2
trbexplorer: prev_hash: 0000000000000009c2e82d884ec07b4aafb64ca3ef83baca2b6b0b5eb72c8f02
trbexplorer: hash: 000000000000003887df1f29024b06fc2200b55f8af8f35453d7be294df2d214
trbexplorer: merkle_root: 16ec1eafaca8ca59d182cbf94f29b50b06ac4207b883f380b9bf547fe8fed723
trbexplorer: timestamp: 1375533383
trbexplorer: target: 426957810
trbexplorer: nonce: 9533025
gregory4: asciilifeform: what sort of food, might I ask?
signpost: asciilifeform: like I was trolling for years back, I'm still open to a wot startup if one becomes obvious.
asciilifeform: mats: not to mention, a 'friendly' jurisdiction today aint necessarily so friendly tomorrow -- consider beijing.
whaack: ^ example of input passed in through deedbot, particularly useful for the 'push' command which is unfortunately still not supported/tested
gregory4: I am familiar with Singapore (and I know some culinary science/history as well).
signpost is otherwise going to retire in a few years
asciilifeform: gregory4: dairy (incl. unpasteurized) for instance.
signpost: there's a whole bookshelf I accumulated out of tmsr that I intend to eat before dead.
asciilifeform: signpost: what do you picture when thinking 'wot startup' ?
asciilifeform: i.e. commercial proj. w/ folx from wot ? anyffin moar specific ?
gregory4: asciilifeform: outside of Mainland, normal supermarkets have dairy across East/Southeast Asia. selection is limited but import-stores will have more.
whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045086 < yes, there are two relevant commands view-addres and utxos, both only work for "real" i.e. p2pkh addresses
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 15:29:33 gregory4: whaack: is it possible to get transactions by address of sender/recipient?
signpost: asciilifeform: correct. I have a few ideas, but none I wish to share publically just yet
gregory4: sorry by "dairy" I meant cheese specifically, which, in the Mainland, is slightly hard to find (even today, surprisingly).
signpost notes that there are many things happening atop ethereum currently that are destined to be captured by its faux-decentralization.
gregory4: asciilifeform: Singapore actually seems like a good fit for you.
asciilifeform: signpost: asciilifeform more or less terminally pessimistic re 'glorious commercial projs' after losing nth shirt making (monopoly!!!) honest iron
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 23:13:39 asciilifeform: is why, for instance, there are 'over 9000' whitening pseudo-trngs on the market today, but the only nonwhitening, shielded trng had print run of 200 , half of which was sold at the bankruptcy hammer
gregory4: I have even dealt before with Russian/Ukrainian programmers residing there.
whaack: !e view-address 18cBEMRxXHqzWWCxZNtU91F5sbUNKhL5PX
asciilifeform: gregory4: i fucking hate block-of-flats densified life tho.
asciilifeform: so no, not good fit.
gregory4: asciilifeform: so many demands lol
trbexplorer: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=eGNW 1 of 7 http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=fBL0 2 of 7 http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Xzcj 3 of 7 http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=T-sQ 4 of 7 http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=GPdt 5 of 7 http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=oN_j 6 of 7 http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=m3jQ 7 of 7
signpost: asciilifeform: yeah, you may recall my bitching for pages that all mp had for plans were narrow-margin shitcorps
mats: i took a dive into the btc de-fi phenom 'rsk' btc sidechain recently, to examine 'sovryn' and its potential for bigbro-free margin trading
signpost: ftr I don't think that's all he could've dreamt up, just liked jacking it to sisyphus
mats: lots of moving parts and i don't know how to evaluate the risks still
gregory4: when considering havens, I could see myself locked in a monastery, even, if certain cultural/spiritual aspects of the society in question were granted.
mats: they make use of things like spv, segwit, multisig, with plans for taproot and drivechain, so thats not good
asciilifeform: mats: can call me a barbarian, but from my pov the mega-failure aint even usually in the programs-on-computer part, but the interface-with-meat, e.g. where you need cooperation (or at least toleration) from fiatola-reich
signpost: mats: seems like someone's going to crack the "uber"/"airbnb"/etc business models into pieces atop defi in time.
asciilifeform: (this in re exotic shitcoins etc)
mats: sovryn is kyc free
whaack: !e utxos 18cBEMRxXHqzWWCxZNtU91F5sbUNKhL5PX 50
asciilifeform: mats: the ~usd you buy food with~ typically aint , tho
asciilifeform: how do you 'convert meters to liters' ?
mats: i buy food with cash bruv
gregory4: whaack: did you have to compile a massive index to achieve this? I haven't looked into the RPC of Bitcoin that closely.
asciilifeform: ok; how do you turn that $alt into benjies ?
signpost: he farms a bunch of fattie whiteboys for their exotic cheeses
whaack: gregory4: yes, and it took multiple months AFTER syncing the trb node
asciilifeform: whaack: fixed dumpblock didn't help?
whaack: probably 4 months total if you consider syncing trb + indexing
gregory4: whaack: well, congratulations.
mats: trade the rbtc for btc, then btc for benjies
gregory4: the need to assemble the index, for BTC or ETH, is the main barrier-to-entry to opening one's own block-inspector.
whaack: asciilifeform: dumpblock only gave me trouble in that it loaded bad data into my index/db
asciilifeform: gregory4: asciilifeform has a o(1) indexator , but not had time to finish it..
whaack: and after your fix i was able to finish the sync properly
gregory4: asciilifeform: nice. I will study it.
asciilifeform: gregory4: ( because, elementarily, life is very short, and mostly gotta do paying works )
asciilifeform: imho the thing to do w/ that is to bolt it ~instead~ of bdb in trb . (as 1st shot in process of ditching ~whole ball of cpp shit~ )
asciilifeform: gregory4: on top of cryostat, if not obv.
gregory4: asciilifeform: if I might ask another question, I recall you saying before that Bitcoin's internal scripting system originally had some merits.
asciilifeform: gregory4: 'had' ? it's still there
mats: cash comes with an unfortunate tax, but what can i do, https://www.bostonfed.org/-/media/Documents/Workingpapers/PDF/ppdp1003.pdf
asciilifeform: mats: much smaller than the having-to-actually-pay-tax tax of electro-usd, lol
gregory4: asciilifeform: what were the merits though? tbh. I find Satoshi's decision to include such a system to be confusing.
gregory4: especially since the scripts are attached to UTXOs, not to addresses as within Ethereum, the latter being the more intuitive model.
asciilifeform: mats: the bigger cost of cash is that you have to structure all of your buying in such a way that you even ~can~ use it . which means ~many~ fewer merchants to choose from.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044095 << I once ran a business that for six years had no paper agreement between the coequal founders.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 07:41:38 kakobrekla: play or get played
signpost: who fucked whom?
asciilifeform: gregory4: shitoshi wasn't a designer, but tinkerer, and the prototype had very little rational structure to it
signpost: tmsr did not introduce me to the ideology of gpg contracts, just proposed a specific implementation
mats: the non-turing complete script system is shit on a lot, undeservedly
signpost: that said, one cannot operate without extending the opportunity to get fucked, as in all things.
asciilifeform: mats: asciilifeform did come up with a 'not turing-complete, but functionally so, but with hard bounds on time and space cost' 'machine'. it's there for the cribbing.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : 'tape' comes with a fixed # of steps and storage space volume )
asciilifeform: likewise direct transfer of control a la 'goto', and recursions, prohibited, so can readily determine # of times a given subroutine is called.
asciilifeform: if software weren't 'lemon market', this might actually make a diff. somewhere.
asciilifeform: but erryone focused simply on milking dough outta morons.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045132 << because , near as i can tell, all he was actually interested in, was ~personal~ worship. did not want to build, e.g. aluminum mill, or airline, because no matter how profitable, would not ~personally~ felate.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 15:35:57 signpost: asciilifeform: yeah, you may recall my bitching for pages that all mp had for plans were narrow-margin shitcorps
signpost brb, f00d
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045139 << i still don't see anyffin to the 'defi' thing beyond scamola. if e.g. buterin doesn't like how your 'defi contract' turned out, he forks the chain, 'oops, unhappened'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 15:37:44 signpost: mats: seems like someone's going to crack the "uber"/"airbnb"/etc business models into pieces atop defi in time.
mats: the smart contract stuff creates liquidity, thats why
signpost: certainly. what was the quote about "modern civilization"? "It'd be a great thing!"
asciilifeform: mats: elaborate?
mats: lots of nouveau rich who want to go long on their cryptothing and borrow fiat
mats: or cryptodollars i guess
asciilifeform: mats: how does this require 'smart' altcoins, tho?
asciilifeform: yer dealing w/ fiat, so at any rate dealing with paper and banks etc
mats: uniswap purports to do automated market making
mats: its easy to move cryptodollars around
asciilifeform: mats: do you remember the 'suggestively-named lisp token' thread ?
mats: binance doesn't even have a banking relationship, just payments processors relationships
mats: uhh, cardano? or is that haskell
asciilifeform: lol which cardano
asciilifeform not familiar, only knows the 'gpg pocket' one asciilifeform scrapped
asciilifeform not connoisseur of alts..
mats: there was a massive amount of demand for tethers in china up until the recent ban
asciilifeform finally found the 'artificial stupidity' piece
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-01-21 adlai: https://www.inf.ed.ac.uk/teaching/courses/irm/mcdermott.pdf aka https://archive.is/4rhpa
mats: https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/tethers-demand-in-china-surpassed-10-billion-in-2019-diar in the bear market days
asciilifeform: ^ asciilifeform's point, can call an altcoin 'cryptodollar' or even 'cryptogold' or 'cryptouranium' but this does not somehow guarantee that, e.g., there'll be a finite supply of it, that you can transact how you want, or , most importantly, that you will be able to redeem yours for dollar/gold/uranium when you want to
mats: well yeah, it has dollar in the name
mats: i'm just telling you the news, don't shiv me
asciilifeform: mats: no i get it, you collect these
asciilifeform: and iirc shinohai arbitrages shitcoins
mats: ftr i hold 0 shitcoins
asciilifeform: i don't consider it sin, so long as you don't 'smoke own stash'
whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045183 << imo that's still the game until btc goes up another 20-100x. It's one of the first problems I brought up when I joined #b-a http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2015-04-04#1088360
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 15:51:29 asciilifeform: but erryone focused simply on milking dough outta morons.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-04-04 whaack: ty, I've reached a point in my life where I can't stand working for VC money anymore. But I have an issue where I don't know of a better way to get bitcoins faster than milk a SF dev valley job and buy them with fiat. I've come for guidance on the issue
asciilifeform: maybe i'm thick, but erry time i see a 'crypto-xyz' i recall e.g. 'maidsafe' and similar idiocies of 2010s
asciilifeform: the current variants, yes, made with 'big budget' , not 'some d00d on reddit', but effectively same thing
asciilifeform: whaack: if asciilifeform's model is correct, would be even worse for ~commerce~ if were to 'go up to' 100x of current, then could have 100x volatility instead of 2x..
asciilifeform: try running so much as a dog walking company with ~that~ kind of currency.
mats: i thought the prevailing theory was that volatility would go down once btc matured
asciilifeform: mats: volatility will only go away when (if...) depaperized, somehow .
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-05 19:59:44 asciilifeform: as a rule, they're entirely happy to buy promisecoin, so can 'leverage' and 'play'.
asciilifeform: otherwise 'printer goes brrr!', musk buys 100k btc, then sells next day, bounce, bounce
mats: intuitively, i don't think building derivatives on top of hard money will be nearly as easy
asciilifeform: ideally imho would be impossible.
asciilifeform: definancialization(tm)(r) motherfukers
mats: theres like, 1,000tn usd in derivatives?
asciilifeform: ( probably -- impossible - but dun hurt to contemplate.. )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-08 15:41:24 asciilifeform: whole idea could very well be a perpetuum mobile -- as the penalty from paperization would have to somehow reliably exceed the ev of leverageism.
mats: btc at 1mn per, would be 19tn, about double current gold
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045214 << Sometimes I help spread fake news just for the lulz too http://btc.info.gf/blog/moscow-memetards-move-market.html
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 16:02:52 asciilifeform: and iirc shinohai arbitrages shitcoins
asciilifeform: mats: right, very easy to 'financialize' fiatola. but more or less impossible to do it w/ e.g. ~actual~ (not 'smart', and privkey-in-YOUR-hand) btc, for instance
whaack: At a high bitcoin price there's (finally) an incentive for investors to buy capital to start a business. If the price of bitcoin dips after they've invested in the capital, all the better, they'll net a profit (as demoninated in BTC)
mats: anyway, i expect the closed usd system to start leaking once the crypto-yen starts rolling out
mats: motherfuckers can still keep printing usd because there's no exit
asciilifeform: mats: do you recall when usa 'decided' to torpedo its industrial base? (80s) and jp didnt feel like following along off the cliff ? what did usg do
mats: sanctions and trade war iirc
asciilifeform: aha. (see e.g. )
dulapbot: (alethepedia) 2020-10-01 asciilifeform: ( future historians, i suspect, will also include the 'control shot' with which usa finished off jp economically in '91 . )
asciilifeform: ( and, etc )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-11-30 asciilifeform: jp was a hair's width away from picking up the torch that anglotardistan dropped, and anglos knew this, and so in late '80s they engineered an economic implosion for'em
mats: i remember reading a congressman saying, 'we should have dropped 4 bombs instead of 2'
gregory4: asciilifeform: Japanese industry continued to do quite well, though.
asciilifeform: if jp were a sovereign country, rather than 52nd u.s. state, would have gone possibly otherwise.
asciilifeform: gregory4: where can i buy a comp made 100% in jp ?
asciilifeform: i own several, most recent made in '97 iirc
asciilifeform: today -- 0 produced
gregory4: it was their international clout which was crippled, not their domestic wellbeing.
asciilifeform: gregory4: they outsourced , exactly like usa
asciilifeform: good % of what 'make' -- is simply paper-shuffling. 'intellectual propert'-whatever-wankeing. exactly again like usa.
asciilifeform: and yes on paper 'their industry' exists and 'does well' aha.
gregory4: are you implying that the Japanese crash could have been worse, and that it was alleviated becuase Japanese leaders conceded to American demands?
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-05-12 asciilifeform: 'The Japanese government is considering providing state-backed aid to Toshiba’s memory business, amounting to near partial nationalisation, to prevent it falling into Chinese or South Korean hands...'
whaack: !e height
asciilifeform: gregory4: it was a hamstringing, jp never recovered, '5th gen computing' project vanished like a dream, 'sarariman for life' and the 'trad-family' it enabled -- mostly also vanish, and so forth
mats: jp might be the single most important us ally on the planet today
mats: theyre lobbying for inclusion into the five eyes
asciilifeform: i can picture the answer, 'you can try and join when it's been 25y since your last factory moved to philippine'
asciilifeform: can't help but picture a farmer's horse asking to join him & buddies in the bar, 'i also want to be farmer'
gregory4: asciilifeform: I need to read more about the Fifth Generation project. there was a book about it by J Marshall Unger which I was trying to obtain.
asciilifeform: gregory4: ~very~ difficult to find ~any solid info, in asciilifeform's exper.
asciilifeform: (possib. if you read jp -- can find)
mats: anyway, cn is in a much better position than jp was in the 90s, and if they can gain more control over monetary policy through a usd competitor, there's room for them to maneuver geopolitically without fear of swift shenanigans
mats: er 80s
gregory4: asciilifeform: understandable that little information exists. yes I can read Japanese but I am not familiar with their internet-community (nor even ODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODwith China's, really).
asciilifeform: mats: arguably cn already 'won'; what is produced ~anywhere~ w/out parts from cn ?
asciilifeform: gregory4: ?
mats: the west is carefully defending the semiconductor supply chain
gregory4: asciilifeform: understandable that little information exists. yes I can read Japanese but I am not familiar with their internet-community (nor even with China's, really).
mats: and there's the matter of massive oil imports
mats: bri is incomplete and disruptions to oil imports would be a problem
mats: if, say, they decided to sail on taiwan
asciilifeform: mats: when even the buttons on the mice in the semi. plants, and the buckles on even the shoes of the oil drillers, made in cn, what means to say 'west controls supply chain' ?
asciilifeform: what does it actually control, other than bullshit production?
mats: not control, but they own enough steps on the ladder to bottleneck / freeze up local production
asciilifeform: if tomorrow cn closes its border -- it'll have shoe buckles. and prolly even computers. and usa ?
mats: they're working on independence, but still behind today
gregory4: asciilifeform: I still remember the chapter about logic-computing from Kogge's book.
asciilifeform: gregory4: aha!
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045247 << can't resist to bite this: per modern-day usg, there were 3 avail., total.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 16:15:50 mats: i remember reading a congressman saying, 'we should have dropped 4 bombs instead of 2'
gregory4: of course, information about Fifth Generation project probably won't be online in the first place. would need to visit library in Japan.
asciilifeform: i.e. jp could've fought to stalemate.
asciilifeform: gregory4: there was considerable lisp uptake there, ~all went completely away as if had never been.
gregory4: asciilifeform: against the United States they could have gotten stalemate, but the USSR was also attacking them.
asciilifeform always had considerable respect for the way jp (used to) build irons -- 'to work for 1000 years', rather than decaying west's 'let's shave 0.003 cents and make it burn out 2week after warraty ends'
asciilifeform: gregory4: at usg insistence
gregory4: asciilifeform: true...
asciilifeform: algo was 1) 'press su to enter pacific war' 2) put on hiroshima-nagasaki show for it
asciilifeform: stalin agreed to 'booby prize' -- kurils
asciilifeform: (where to this day wank)
gregory4: if you put it that way, the United States basically bribed the USSR to attack Japan, similar to how Richelieu had bribed Sweden to help the German Protestants.
asciilifeform must bbl
mats: sorry, crypto-yuan, lol
mats: they all look alike you know
gregory4: paradoxically, Japan is one of the best places in the modern day for the avoidance of American culture.
gregory4: the union with USA takes place at the level of upper class, not middle class.
gregory4: contrast this with Taiwan and South Koera, where union occurs at both upper and middle class.
gregory4: or with Mainland of China, where union is upper-middle class (but not upper).
mats: it bothers me ethnically that jp-americans sit at the top of the demographic income ladder
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1044880 I support the idea which is varyingly labelled ``totalitarian'', ``fascist'', or ``authoritarian'', signpost.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 13:28:53 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042598 << careful in so restricting that you do not remove the possibility of sane human relationship. modern totalitarianism grows out of this same desire to remove all possibility of The Bad via "protocol".
gregory4: verisimilitude: the term Totalitarian implies absence of "null poena sine lege." you really want that?
verisimilitude: My latin is still immature. Is this ``no punishment for the ruler''?
verisimilitude: Wait, I omitted sine there.
gregory4: "no punishment without law." basically, the idea that a person needs to break a specific law, and have a trial, before being punished.
verisimilitude: I'm only on the tenth chapter of my Latin book.
verisimilitude: It doesn't imply that.
gregory4: verisimilitude: if it doesn't, then there is, AFAIK, no meaningful separation between Totalitarian and Authoritarian.
verisimilitude: Regardless, an ideal society has an all-powerful ruler that makes no mistakes, meaning concepts such as ``double jeopardy'', for an imperfect society, are unnecessary.
verisimilitude: The terms are conflated constantly, and I prefer not to label my thoughts so.
verisimilitude: I believe in the strong ruling over the weak, simply put.
signpost: "spoken like a man who has never been cracked one in the mouth"
gregory4: verisimilitude: what do you think of William Graham Sumner in that case? is that not similar to your view?
verisimilitude: I can't write for the rest of you, but I regularly exercise, to become stronger. My goal is to be able to maim others, were it necessary.
mats: i prefer, 'smart rule over the strong, and the strong rule over the weak'
verisimilitude: Strong and smart are combined here, mats.
verisimilitude: The stupid are weak.
verisimilitude: I don't know of him, gregory4.
mats: do any mma, verisimilitude?
verisimilitude: No, but I'd like to. I'd like to be ``cracked one in the mouth'', and to still be standing afterwards.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045039 << worth if you are after permanent EU residency. Then you get sun/beach/mountain, some real estate, cheap services, people speak english, can fly easily to eu/asia/africa. if not so interested in EU, there are obviously better places to look at.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 15:22:49 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043718 << gotta ask, why is greece worth the $250k?
signpost: mental and physical fitness is well and good. I find this "makes no mistakes" complete nonsense, verisimilitude
signpost: do let me know when you've discovered the creature capable of this. no points for "by way of doing nothing"
signpost: punkman: europe seems nice, but questionable whether it'd materially improve my life to move there (at great cost)
signpost: perhaps to a crypto-friendly jurisdiction if the right opportunity emerged
signpost: upstack, this *chan fascism is a type of porn, not a coherent ideology.
gregory4: at risk of repeating myself, with regard to USA, I think Liberalism is already on its way out.
signpost: that much is clear.
signpost: that enlightened authoritarianism is next is not.
verisimilitude: The ideal society has a god, a real god, signpost.
verisimilitude: Oh, so what I prefer is mere pornography?
gregory4: very broadly speaking, Liberalism cannot, and has not survived the post-WW2 ethnic transition of the country away from the English ethnicity.
mats: i rate the likely possibility of a managed model of democracy in usa
mats: cant have the monkeys killing each other over fake news when they need to be slaving the next morning
mats: bad for business
signpost: verisimilitude: need I lay out a more elaborate invitation for you to defend your infallable god notion, or what
signpost: mats: yeah, the covid experiment revealed the extent of the obedience toward such
mats: the zuck, dorsey, and other oligarchs are feeling serious repercussions as states wake up to their monopoly on violence
signpost: "was hoping you'd say netflix and chill and mean it"
verisimilitude: It's in the logs, signpost.
mats: like their local employees in ru, in, etc getting snatched and ransomed
signpost: verisimilitude: so is the mp experiment, but throw me a link
verisimilitude: I'll find it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-01-28 13:57:38 verisimilitude: Well, in mine ideal society, there's a god which decides that, and no one may disagree with it by definition, because it's more powerful than everyone else.
gregory4: mats: have you followed news of upcoming Hainan free-trade zone, by any chance?
mats: unrelatedly, i wonder about how the antitrust proceedings against big tech will impact international us competitiveness
mats: is this really a good idea in the era of east india corp style 'civil military fusion'
gregory4: is anyone here familiar with history of anti-trust law?
gregory4: why did Robert Bork's model of anti-trust law become successful?
verisimilitude: Is that from the ``Chicago School'' or whatever?
gregory4: verisimilitude: I don't know which "school" Judge Bork was part of.
signpost: verisimilitude: I fail to see the use of this particular ideal, other than perhaps to dispense with the notion of politics entirely
signpost: reminds me of mp's ideal woman
verisimilitude: I will think in terms of ideals, and not settle for less.
signpost: lol, I mean that's definitionally so
signpost is curious whether verisimilitude means the impossible type of god, or the technologically constructed kind
verisimilitude: People who don't consider ideals eventually forget about them.
signpost: or if there are religious notions underpinning this
verisimilitude: I'm not religious, but can understand the comfort it brings, even though I can't enjoy it.
signpost had a similar idea re: nietzsche's ubermensch once, that it was to be thought of as ever-ahead, rather than attainable
signpost: actually have an unfinished piece on subj somewhere
mats: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045267 << well, a centaur (nakasone) runs nsa and cybercom
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 16:20:43 asciilifeform: can't help but picture a farmer's horse asking to join him & buddies in the bar, 'i also want to be farmer'
mats: seems like a strategic pick, and approved by the senate!
asciilifeform: mats: all kinds jp emigres & nth-gen folx 'made big' (recall president fujumori..) -- orig. point was in anglo's attitude to jp per se, 'horse' i.e. to be exploited and made for glue when done with
asciilifeform very much sees modern jp as a country destroyed -- by the lizards -- with weapon of financialization. where suddenly somehow doesn't matter that your craftsmen polish $object for 5years and 'put soul' in it, all that matters is derivatives-fuckwaddery and pyramids of funny moneys
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 16:29:13 asciilifeform: always had considerable respect for the way jp (used to) build irons -- 'to work for 1000 years', rather than decaying west's 'let's shave 0.003 cents and make it burn out 2week after warraty ends'
gregory4: there is almost no similarity of thinking, in my experience, between citizens of East Asia and yellow Americans.
asciilifeform: gregory4: americans come in only 3 kinds -- lizard (you'll never meet) , worker , and lumpen.
mats: asians know how to assimilate, unlike muslims (and this isnt a value judgment)
asciilifeform: and not really 'colour'-coded.
verisimilitude: To give some credit, Nintendo is far better than Sony and Microsoft when it comes to building fun games.
gregory4: mats: it is not so much that they know how to assimilate, as that they lack any exotic religion to provide a counterweight to their American schooling.
gregory4: Muslim and Hindu children have their thoughts partly shaped by their ethnic religion. yellows seem to learn everything from either school or Evangelical church.
mats: asciilifeform: i credit the theory, just wanted to point out the tidbit. ive gotten some pushback when relating the essential racism of american institutions, but folks recently clam up when i mention the dismissal of the harvard case on discrimination against asians, who apparently 'lack personality'
gregory4: asciilifeform: under my cosmology, the three groups (excluding Lizards) are Cosmopolitan, Yeoman, and Enclavist.
mats: also hilarious to see self hating race traitors play it like asians are allowing themselves to be used in a crude ploy as submarines against affirmative action
mats: rather than looking out, you know, for their own interests and their kids'
gregory4: Enclavist includes your "lumpens" but also non-white white-collars whose loyalty is firstly toward their ethnic group.
verisimilitude: It's worth pointing out a Westerner, W. Edwards Demming, for the quality of Japanese manufacturing.
mats: related luls, https://abc7news.com/sfusd-board-of-education-meeting-school-lowell-high-sf/10325219 meritocracy is racist, did you know
verisimilitude: They only achieved such standards by listening to him.
gregory4: verisimilitude: Japan learned a lot in the late 1800s from Britain and Germany.
gregory4: mats: if you don't mind me asking, is "essential racism of american institutions" taken from Critical Race Theory?
gregory4: lately I have been reading some books about CRT, since so many people have been discussing it.
mats: idk, CRT is like socialism, no two people in a group of 1,000 can agree on a definition
mats: what i know is, liberals see institutional racism and think, 'we need more of that'
verisimilitude: As others have pointed out, CRT is a convenient red herring in a society already burdened by ``civil rights''.
gregory4: the Liberals care about serving enclaves. they do almost nothing for honest non-white individuals who are trying to fit in.
verisimilitude: These terms, ``conservative'' and ``liberal'', only serve to allow the monsters to shapeshift.
gregory4: that is true to an extent, but the attempt to transcend ideology and lay blame on an elite "monster" clique inevitably leads to "psychological supremacy."
gregory4: ie. worship of modern psychology; and the framing of the battle as normal people versus so-called Psychopaths, Sociopaths, Narcissists.
gregory4: this was the intellectual template into which James Corbett ultimately settled.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045393 << all i see there is folx (in this case, different flavours of poor emigres) fighting over crumbs from the master's table ('merit' spots in 'ivy' apparatus)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 18:03:05 mats: rather than looking out, you know, for their own interests and their kids'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045396 << 'merit' of schoolchildren is mostly bogus.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 18:04:21 mats: related luls, https://abc7news.com/sfusd-board-of-education-meeting-school-lowell-high-sf/10325219 meritocracy is racist, did you know
asciilifeform went to 1 of these schools. in fact, coupla yrs ago heard that it was 'cancelled' exactly like the one in this link.
verisimilitude: I don't know if that's a good framing compared to ``Psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists versus other psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists.''
asciilifeform: mebbe 2/3 of the children were 'silver spoon' 'wasps', their parents simply got to save on tuition
signpost also went to "magnet" school, was a joke
asciilifeform: the joke, seems, stopped being funny, so mostly stopped being told..
asciilifeform: the fundamental joke, the 1 where there's 'merit'
verisimilitude: I went to a poor highschool; the most important lesson I learned was that I must take my learning under my control if I were to learn.
signpost incidentally learned same from the other end
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: learning vis a vis school is rather like j.e.hoover's 'justice is incidental to law enforcement' (tm)(r)
gregory4: asciilifeform: also, I was told that 20% of Ivy League spots go to athletic scholarships.
verisimilitude: I thought college would be different, and was quickly dispelled of the thought.
gregory4: asciilifeform: horrifying quotation.
asciilifeform: gregory4: it's an important lumpen-brainwashing apparatus in usa, along with the lottery
asciilifeform: give'em the 'carrot'
mats: i dont approve of an athletics quota system, but i think encouraging competitive fitness is valuable
verisimilitude: I learned a different lesson from that; had I gone to a ``good'' college and learned ``the way things are'', it would've killed my beautiful thoughts borne of ignorance from the sickening normality.
gregory4: verisimilitude: if you scratch the surface slightly, the existence of Psychopaths, like that of aliens, was itself promoted by Establishment members.
asciilifeform: gregory4, verisimilitude : for lizard/jr.lizard offspring, school is for this ; for those of 'aspirationals', for mimicry of the latter; for those of workers -- to instill obedience ; for lumpens -- prison/warehouse.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-04-22 18:13:08 gregorynyssa: the central aim of British upper-class boarding schools is to teach such traditions, principles, and manners as to promote solidarity among the upper class.
mats: nerddom has this vulnerability / insecurity about it in evaluation of students
asciilifeform: gregory4: psychopaths unfortunately not only exist but don't have to go far (mp, lizards)
asciilifeform: mats: elaborate?
signpost: verisimilitude: sounds like same story as mine. I was duped into padding the stats of a shitty state school with a fat stipend.
verisimilitude: I still occasionally wonder what I'm, gregory4; I'm not normal, and the normal people seem worse than any psychopath.
signpost put the second-semester check in his pocket and checked out to the beach for a season
mats: like its unfair for athletics scholarships to go to otherwise academically mediocre scholar athletes
verisimilitude: Don't be racist, mats.
asciilifeform: mats: i found interesting that the 'athletic carrot for lumpens' and pseudo-academe had to live under same roof; reminiscent imho of medieval 'barber-surgeons' , but at least the latter both used knife
asciilifeform: ( 'carrot' using here as term of art, i.e. device for coaxing intellectually dim people into playing -ev games )
asciilifeform: in the end decided that is simply a herding of victims by age group, hence both in same institutions.
asciilifeform: no matter that the 'athletes' (largely simply waste material for the selection mill) and faux-physicists, faux-engineers, etc have to live in same pit
asciilifeform: it makes sense organizationally.
mats: i mean, purely anecdotally, i'd overwhelmingly (but not without exception) rather interact with fit people, because odds have been they are more willing to work as hard in their personal lives as in the gym or on the field
signpost might say exact same about rednecks, for same reason
signpost: "at least this fucker can chop wood if it gets cold"
asciilifeform: signpost: i did not until far into adulthood encounter these people who so 'theoretical' that cannot chop wood
asciilifeform: but they, apparently, exist.
mats: and ftr i dont think i was ever especially fit, mostly a casual in k12+ sportsballs
asciilifeform: i learned that in usa there are households where there is no hammer.
asciilifeform: no screwdriver. no saw.
asciilifeform: folx who 100% reliant on costly 'services'
mats: lol, there are tens of thousands of sv faangm coolies who dont cook, clean, drive, or wash themselves
verisimilitude: I laugh at those whose thermostats require an Internet connection to work, bemoaning the cold.
mats: the gig economy was built for them
signpost: wait, I can hire someone to come scrub my balls?
mats: o no, they just remained unwashed
verisimilitude: This seems like a natural progression of capitalism, mats.
asciilifeform: mats: asciilifeform would never describe self as 'athlete' (lol) but can carry e.g. a reasonably-sized fellow human to safety, or 2 full nato 'jerry cans', or 9000 other things i consider ~minimal~ spec for a male in late '30s
verisimilitude: Why build something useful rather than breed people useless?
signpost: incidentally signpost just snagged 8 of these from "wavian"
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: do you recall n.tesla's grim prediction re 'society of the insects' ?
asciilifeform: signpost: they're ok, except for the funnels
signpost: yeah, those are pretty meh
signpost: was the only distributor I could find that wasn't severely backlogged (at the time)
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: subj if you have the patience.
mats: alf knows how to fireman carry?
asciilifeform: mats: prolly not 'to spec' to pass exam.. but i was speaking of what i think of as ~basic~ abilities for grown man, rather than exotic skills.
verisimilitude: Does transporting a man need to be in one trip?
asciilifeform: in usa apparently some of these considered exotic
mats: i remember staggering under the weight of a midwestern american
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: lol not always ! (see reiser et al)
mats: and a full sized mattress, in basic
asciilifeform: mats: i dunno if i could lift a 'midwesterner' lol
asciilifeform: at least in 1 piece..
asciilifeform: for this -- prolly needs circus performer
mats: weird shape and weight distribution, wasnt too heavy
mats: short story is, some guy left his rifle behind and we were all made to drag mattresses into formation and have them stood up tall
asciilifeform: mats: army mattress is a little thing, neh?
mats: then full mopp and battle racket with circuits around the track
asciilifeform: aah you were made to march with'em?
mats: they were the extended twin / full sized thing
asciilifeform: ( also in gas mask? or no? )
mats: well we put the mattresses back, but yeah
asciilifeform: sounds like a++ lesson
asciilifeform father had 'over 9000' lessons like this. asciilifeform did not get to be in the army. which is a shame, it'd've been 9000x moar useful than what did instead
mats: ya, its a good drinking story
mats: er, battle rattle
asciilifeform: meanwhile, asciilifeform went 'can use a footnote >1nce in 'markdown' formatter ?' -- apparently not! and the fuckwads/'maintainers' are proud!'
asciilifeform: sooo apparently not possible to simply use output of this thing.
asciilifeform remembers this was why he quit using it entirely in 2010s
asciilifeform: fucking circus.
asciilifeform: doesn't know how to renumber sections, either.
asciilifeform: if anyone knows of a ascii-dressing to htmlade formatter that aint hipsterware -- plox to write in.
mats: is this a problem still in markdown 5?
mats: think ive seen multiple footnotes in markdown before
asciilifeform: mats: multiple invocations of 1 footnote
asciilifeform: without duplication
asciilifeform: and correct reordering
asciilifeform: so if i [^bar] .... [^foo] ... [^foo] ... [^bar] ... [^baz] .... [^bar]:... [^foo]:... [^baz] --- the output had better not contain more than 3 footnotes.
asciilifeform: and the numbers had better be 1,2,3.
asciilifeform: neither is troo in 'markdown2'.
asciilifeform: (where is there a '5' ??)
asciilifeform was trying this one
asciilifeform: or say i want to rename a section, or insert one between existing sections.
asciilifeform: now have to manually change 9000+ links? WHY?
asciilifeform pictures answer, 'because, you moron, it's decorative svhipsterware, why are you trying to USE it, what kind idjit..'
asciilifeform had enuff, will bbl
mats: yeah i see what you mean, reproduced it in the macos app macdown
verisimilitude: I use a custom format I translate to HTML manually; to support anything beyond <p>, I'll just use text replacement, once I actually implement this.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-11#1045437 I take it we both avoided debt as well?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 18:48:37 signpost: verisimilitude: sounds like same story as mine. I was duped into padding the stats of a shitty state school with a fat stipend.
verisimilitude: That ``both'' was unnecessary.
signpost: incurred a bit during the early days of my business, but long since paid off, and long since sworn off.
verisimilitude: I'm resolved to never hold debt; there's naught I want badly enough, anyway.
punkman: verisimilitude: if you don't mind me asking, how old are you?
verisimilitude: That's private.
verisimilitude: My website was started in 2017, so I'm at least four years old.