vex: now turn over the documents.
vex: if you and alfie sit down over vodka, I might need to be there
phf: there's a better version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12w5wykucgk
vex sets the shit to 11
phf: it's a spinal tap reference? i don't get it beyond that
vex: someone irl said it once. i dunno
phf: also my poison is port wine
phf: i don't think asciilifeform drinks :o
vex: excellent. seems to fit, like blondies silk cameltoe
vex: alf drinks
phf: d.h. is a babe, but then also every time i see her my first thought is that it's basically impossible to fuck on cocaine
vex: what's her big song?
phf: probably heart of glass? i was at giorgio moroder concert in moscow and he played all his hits, but from blondie he played heart of glass. i'm pretty sure he wrote most of her stuff
vex: who wrote who is a big thing
phf: moroder wrote the 80s, the entirety of it in fact. i mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMADp-FtCYo
vex nods in neverending agreeance
vex: hopefullty signpost finds a thumbeared copy to read to the next gen
vex: I think he knows it's respect
vex: when artax... i'm already
signpost: I'll take triumphant 80s electro any day.
vex: perhaps it doesn't get better than that
signpost: happened at peak empire and peak cocaine eh?
signpost: probably doesn't get better
phf: i like that the word "peak" spontaneously emerged
vex: peak everything
signpost: yeah, sometimes I think the meatputer's smarter than it appears.
signpost: just entirely other goals than individual.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-10#1101088 << relately, had a girlfriend in the 00s that looked just like this chick, down to the cig
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-10 23:00:25 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-10#1101083 << was trying to figure who's the peak 80s hair spray cool, decided to go with Anja Huwe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXgn-PWBLAs
phf: man, dat sig, dat sig
signpost: got pregnant (with somebody else, later), transformed into ultra-mom on a dime. it was hilarious, and on some level reassuring.
phf: that's why there's 27 club
signpost: haha, gotta bail before nature has its way, yeah.
phf: but also like, doesn't have to be this way, i know a handful of people who were cool back in their time, they just sort of retreated, without surrendering. like in this track there's a backup dancer girl, you'll see her i don't have to point her out, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b2T8K2D-ps i had a crush on her in '95? or whatever. her name is tamzin haughton and funny story i met her at a party in 2008 or so, and she was still cool
phf: af, despite being significantly older
signpost: yeah, I mean to say that in the case of this ex, her vegan punk party thing looked headed for a ditch.
signpost: turned out, entirely viable
signpost: still pretty much the same chick, but with the life factory calling more shots than before.
vex: i fell in with a 12 yo horserider when I was 8
mats: horse girls are weird
vex: I fell off hard. apparently I was super brave af
phf: vex: here's the soundtrack for my horsegirl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS088Opj9o0
phf: her uncle owned a (small) movie theater in moscow, and that's where i saw the matrix on big screen for the first time. in retrospect i treated her cruely...
mats: the last horse girl i met transitioned into a man
phf: mats: …
mats: true story
vex: we know
signpost: dunno if that one generalizes, lol
vex: you haven't ridden till you'vew fallen orf
phf: vex: akshuaaaally!
mats: does a man wear a cup when he rides a horse
vex: I banged my should up hardcore
vex: you fall off and hit your rock on a head
vex: then an older girl looks after you
phf: man of culture i see
vex: it doesn't hurt, but yeAH
mats: horsing around has for me always been one of those things white people do that was out of reach
mats: always had been* like boating in nh or the hamptons
mats: not to racialize everything but thats how it felt
vex: mats, you can ride polo if you want
phf: mats: boating in hamptons is something bhrahimnic indians do these days
mats: indians being promoted to model minority status in recent us history is a source of amusement for me personally
signpost: hey, italians and irish got promoted all the way to white
signpost: there's hope
mats: and something of a source of envy also, indians who don't even speak the same language have the nationalist energy to cooperate in us corps
mats: i haven't really seen that kind of national or ethnic solidarity among other asian americans in the workplace
phf: mats: on the other hand don't worry, indians doing boats doesn't elevate indians, it simple makes boating declase. i know that, because despite being a snow nigger, i pass, being of class.
vex: best chink in the game old mats
phf: there's brief confusion about the whole "indian ceo" amongst the people of status, but it's not lasting, and the opinion is mostly formed.
vex: who dat?
signpost: everybody forgets poor sundar
phf: lol, nadella specifically
vex: again, who dat?
phf: ms ceo
vex: what's the game?
vex: heavy on the nasdaq, old ms
phf: wealth has more time, but also slower reaction time, because time. tech is an outlier, but brief period
mats: i've recently had unfortunate opportunity to interact with class
signpost: re: indians the smart ones left just like everybody else in my brief tour.
signpost: the megacorps have all succumbed to bureaucracy, and it's just current fashion that the bureaucracies be led by them.
signpost: later black woman of color or whatever.
phf: signpost: lol, left where? mp had a very solid point "you're an engineer, going to X now instead?"
signpost: everyone I respected left; race was not an indicator
signpost: phf: I was at goog for a while
vex: we know
phf: i didn't know :o
vex: I guessed?
mats: lots of small talk about montana/utah/wyoming, horsing, yellowstone, boats, flying to disneyworld for a weekend jaunt, their tesla suv, the tragedy of their six year old's favourite food being chilean seabass
mats: i think i have enough material for a solid ten standup but nobody would know what i'm talking about
vex: tru dat
signpost: phf: had my fill, moved on. they bought my thing.
phf: signpost: congrats :)
vex: mats. i'll show yoU how to ride a horse
vex: fast. uphill
mats: no ty
vex: rair cop
mats: i kind of want an electric atv though
phf: mats: i think that maybe these kinds of groups need to be observed over time, rather than at slice. because they look comedic at slice, and then overtime, they somehow subsume, and nobody could've expected !11
mats: go places cops can't follow, bury bodies in places cars can't go, seekrit rendezvous with squirrels
mats: and when ukraine comes up, its 'i just cant believe putin is crazy enough to invade' and then the same dumb rote references to increasingly larger conference tables
phf: mats: atv is for old redneck boomers, get a non-road legal bike. i just got one, and it's great gas. someone in wv modded a suzuki cafe racer for mud racing..
vex: ^tru dat
mats: i guess i could always chop up the body and fit the pieces in a duffel bag
mats: then wear the bag
signpost: mats: they're trying to keep you from ascending to white. don't listen.
verisimilitude: I happened upon the word CARNIFEX in my copy of the OLD recently.
mats: i just thought the atv would be great for hauling meat
verisimilitude: I first knew it as a forum name, but hadn't thought to associate greater meaning to it then.
verisimilitude: It means ``executioner''.
phf: shit i would never want to restrict somebody's path for ascendance. i can be significantly flamboyant in my rebelion against whatever white culture i'm int, because …
phf: if you want to /participate/ than atvs are definitely the way to go, but, practically speaking, inferior to offroading motorcycles if you're fit
verisimilitude: I can spend all day obsessing over Latin.
verisimilitude: Once, I had jury duty, and everyone there was bored, or stealing glances at a phone, but I sat there, just thinking about machine code.
verisimilitude: When it came time to judge me for suitability, only I could answer their questions to show I'd been paying attention.
verisimilitude: I wasn't selected, because I admitted to hating football.
signpost: subj of mats.people.white things, I just got a new AR
mats: and then everyone clapped
verisimilitude: No, this really happened.
mats: we know
vex: verisimilitude, can have a klx 150, fully worked
verisimilitude: Fight me, mats.
vex: don't fight mats
vex: you'll get ded
verisimilitude: I'll eat thy liver.
signpost: if we start having sperg cage fights I'll need whoever to bring back a betting site.
mats: signpost: fun, did you rice it yet
phf: i'm missing something, because i have some participants of this chat on ignore
signpost: mats: nah, no shit bolted to side yet
phf: signpost: what kind of ar?
signpost: got a daniel defense ddm4v7
mats: do you like the foregrip?
signpost: seems solid, yeah
signpost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gol9lRqL7qo << while we're youtubing, old guy having a marvelous time ploinking with the thing
phf: signpost: it's semiauto, or you waited yr+ for auto?
signpost: nah, got the semi
phf: jeff cooper
phf: just going to mention him in the log, readers are welcome to pursue further, but he's peak man
mats: some people don't like the foregrip because it can catch on a vest or pack
phf: mats: it seems entirely tacticool, but presumably you can just unscrew it?
signpost: yeah, I see that complaint.
mats: i think so
signpost: it does come off; not sure whether it's easy to put a different rail on.
mats: another toy i've been eyeing is a 640x480 atn thermal monocular
mats: the ultimate tacticool
mats: 'we own the night' etc
signpost: pretty cool
signpost figured leveling up with a rifle would be a useful skill in dying empire.
signpost: no delusions of grandeur, just figure there might be a day when carnies start burning neighborhoods
signpost: ty, I'll read it.
phf: it sets the scope, so to speak
signpost: gonna hit the hay, night all
mats: also afk
vex: me too
phf: but we never moved on to the 90s!
vex: listening in
vex: I'll bash your skull in for $8.50
vex: if we haven't frightened notoshi; I'll eat my haT
vex: we get two games shoe shire hot dogs fries and a coke
vex: fuck you cunt. i'm coming atchya liek cleopatra
phf: 8.50? that seems rather cheap, i can last longer in a rink
vex: it's like 19.50 now
phf: no no i'm a russian 90s kid, karate, sambo, kung fu and then in the last few years mma. i can at least last an $80 worth of a match
vex: noone wants a hotdog nayway
vex: ever bin to london?
vex: so work
phf: nah, high school exchange student
vex: oh dear
vex: what a goaitch?
vex: get the bus cunt
phf: tbf manchester hiphop culture is like early 2000s, in 96 it was all techno
phf: the whole dizzie rascal thing is after my time
phf: on the other hand, let's not go to the camelot^Wthe 90s, it's a silly place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbB3iGRHtqA
phf: yet on the other hand here's charlotte de witte's remix of age of love https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVvcTIGy40 …
phf: since y'all bailed i had to make this trip by myself, but i finally found it. behold, the 90s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrLequ6dUdM
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101264 << have been reading since you first recommended. up to chapter 6 on trajectory. excellent reading so far. I don't shoot but this books really making me want to start
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 01:57:31 phf: signpost: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Rifle-Jeff-Cooper/dp/1581605927
crtdaydreams: I know it's a short book, I should really finish it. been reading it in amongst other things. I'm never reading <3 books at a time
crtdaydreams: I'm also not really inclined towards firearms. Then again, the road between being peaceful and harmless goes a mile.
crtdaydreams: technically 90's by year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6120QOlsfU
crtdaydreams: vex: it's pretty fuckin' wet here
crtdaydreams: we were all huddled in the workshop today, everyone passing around grinders and welding helmets
crtdaydreams: pretty squishy, half a dozen different jobs all going on at once
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $31567.8
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101169 << lol! congrats..?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 01:19:27 phf: mats: on the other hand don't worry, indians doing boats doesn't elevate indians, it simple makes boating declase. i know that, because despite being a snow nigger, i pass, being of class.
asciilifeform suspects he wouldn't 'pass' (tho, as with the old joak re 'can you play the violin?' 'dunno, not tried...')
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101243 << what didja have prior?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 01:43:47 signpost: got a daniel defense ddm4v7
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 01:46:24 phf: signpost: it's semiauto, or you waited yr+ for auto?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101257 << double-edged sword ( e.g. would it still work after you've clubbed sumbody with the stock ? )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 01:54:17 mats: another toy i've been eyeing is a 640x480 atn thermal monocular
billymg: asciilifeform: i don't think it's meant to be mounted on a rifle, like a scope. they're for scouting / sighting
billymg: "spotting", that's the word
bitbot: Logged on 2022-05-10 23:29:59 billymg: "2) "Moreover, because custodially held crypto assets may be considered to be the property of a bankruptcy estate, in the event of a bankruptcy, the crypto assets we hold in custody on behalf of our customers could be subject to bankruptcy proceedings..."
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101312 << maybe you put more into it than meant: it's no different than fitting in at a shriner fundraiser or a crust punk party, just another way to pass time.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 10:45:39 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101169 << lol! congrats..?
phf: besides it's hardly "better sort of people m'boy" anymore, the transformation wrought by the information highway affected all classes equally
phf: there's a running social comment how the wealthy can't really get a better iphone than you, well, they can't really get better iphone content than you either
asciilifeform: phf: iirc in original it went sumthinglike 'rockefeller drinks the same cocacola as erryoneelse'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101321 << hm possibly. saw the flat bottom, assumed it had rail mount. and defo saw this kinda thing at the range, massive 10$k golden toilets bolted to a 2$k iron
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 11:02:35 billymg: asciilifeform: i don't think it's meant to be mounted on a rifle, like a scope. they're for scouting / sighting
asciilifeform owned a number of thermovisors, for unrelated purposes, all of'em were rubbish, suspects that 'real deal' can only be had on black market
signpost: asciilifeform: I've got a crappy 9mm other than the rifle
asciilifeform: signpost: a, so this was signpost's 1st long barrel
signpost: got a rusty mosin nagant too, but haven't shot it in a while
signpost: but yeah, taking on rifle work in earnest for the first time
asciilifeform: mosin w/ optic will prolly still be in use in next century..
signpost: isn't a bad gun. my old thing was mighty accurate last I shot
asciilifeform: sadly in 1890s not yet invented chrome plating inside barrel tho
signpost might get another and treat it better; got proper storage now
signpost: got the ddm4 because I can get the ammo easy, and it's reputed to be sturdy/reliable
signpost: will see how it goes
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 01:25:18 phf: signpost: lol, left where? mp had a very solid point "you're an engineer, going to X now instead?"
signpost: arguably at that job I was a politician, and I didn't want to have my reward pathways hit for doing that for too long.
asciilifeform has witnessed folx losing last remnants of brain after 'promotion to management'
signpost: yup. that was the other fork that could've been taken.
asciilifeform: a, assumed is what meant by 'politician'
signpost: they have degrees of it.
asciilifeform not done time in any similar bureaucracy, with exception of u.s. army, where, having rank of 'contractor', not truly tasted the bitter cup, all 'contractor' being effectively same rank (slave)
signpost has this notion that having a false face backflows, ends up only face.
asciilifeform: 'you are what you pretend to be'(tm)(r)
signpost: yep, exactly that.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 01:26:17 mats: lots of small talk about montana/utah/wyoming, horsing, yellowstone, boats, flying to disneyworld for a weekend jaunt, their tesla suv, the tragedy of their six year old's favourite food being chilean seabass
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 23:12:51 asciilifeform: 'because they have no theorems to prove'(tm)(r)(p.erdos)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101226 << pretty odd voir dire q. ( was a footballist on trial ?! )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 01:40:57 verisimilitude: I wasn't selected, because I admitted to hating football.
signpost: https://www.briankhaney.com/perf-season-at-google/ << this, obviously, can become a game, and the only game.
asciilifeform called up like clockwork erry 3y, where he lives. one time even sat, was lulzy
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-01-11 asciilifeform: phf: believe or not, asciilifeform sat on a jury once where 100% of the evidence was the computrace nonsense
asciilifeform lives in a place where courthouse is packed to the gills (all 4d/w that it is open, lol) and good % of adult population is Officially 'disqualified' from jury service
asciilifeform: signpost: a, was 1 of those shitholes with quarterly decimations ?
asciilifeform naively imagined that folx who end up in there on acct of their co being bought, would've been exempt
signpost: we were tiny, and at that scale, one might expect similar logic applied as if VCs were putting money in.
signpost: "made 100 bets, fine if 1-2 survive"
signpost: not a big deal; I was in that thing for a decade. fine way to close up shop.
asciilifeform: signpost: was it 1 of those deals where they buy yer co with stock, and then you gotta survive a term of indenture until 'vests' ?
signpost: can't say, but typical deals have a mix of compensation.
asciilifeform to date only participated in the variant of that adventure which ends w/ losing shirt, lol
signpost: I left earlier than my biz partner, thanks to the upward movement of BTC. left a chunk on the table, but don't care.
signpost: hey I might lose my shirt; give me time
signpost is the demented type that wanted the small business pain back when it was gone.
billymg: signpost: what did your business do/provide? i'm always curious when people figure out a way to carve out a sustainable small biz in the software industry
billymg: would be satisfied even with a vague ansewr
signpost: restaurant online ordering
signpost: our pricing blew competition out of the water because we didn't have a VC ponzi to refuel, and we worked our asses off building adapters to legacy platforms in addition to the modern ones with web APIs.
signpost: also very tight ship, 10 people at height.
billymg: very cool
signpost: probably one aspect that made it work was getting started right after the 08 bust.
signpost: (which is exactly why I took off the golden handcuffs to write my own code during the current bust)
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101357 I know. They were asking every potential juror this stupid question of opinion.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 12:15:43 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101226 << pretty odd voir dire q. ( was a footballist on trial ?! )
verisimilitude: No footballist, just a ``football American'', say.
verisimilitude: I told them may what I thought of the stupid sport go on the record, and was assured it had.
billymg: signpost: with my 2+ years of freedom i've regained the energy to do another fiat grind, but don't know yet what that would be
signpost: will give ya a shout if I get one figured out. would much rather work within the wot this time if it's possible.
phf: signpost: are you still in discovery phase?
thimbronion: billymg, signpost lemme know as well if my services are needed
signpost: yep, just prototyping things. pentacle's meant to be my embedded platform, for example.
signpost previously did one using gentoo for the old biz.
signpost: but if anybody else has a soft target to propose I'm open to ideas, so long as nobody tries to get me to sign away my ability to author items myself.
signpost: thimbronion: 100%
signpost: will give you a shout if anything starts working
billymg: i've got one idea, but it wouldn't be any fun
billymg: will describe it, might as well:
signpost: billymg: is it more fun than hammering on my dick wth solidity, because I did that from about jan-mar to at least have an informed critique of defi
phf: signpost: oh you're in tech? i got this idea, let's just quickly sign nda and non-compete before i explain it to you
signpost: please excuse my allergies
billymg: there's squarespace / shopify which have platforms for small businesses to create templated websites. there is also a cottage industry of freelancers / small shops that do the work of configuring/maintaining these (because in reality even the point-and-click of squarespace/shopify is too much for some small biz owners)
billymg: some of these freelancers/small shops charge monthly to the client, so the client subscribes to them, and they subscribe to shopify/squarespace
billymg: and just pocket the difference
billymg: so i was thinking do the same thing but with a dulap/pentacle self-hosted box running mp-wp (easy to build/customize templates in there)
billymg: which keeps the costs way lower than paying squarespace/shopify on the backend
billymg: then it's just a grind of cold calling and accumulating customers/subscribers
signpost: narrow margins in there; we used to do it for bigger clients.
billymg: that's what i thought, but narrow marigins can be mangeable if you can stay lean and still scale
signpost: could be doable after the bust, when there's a bunch of new-growth businesses
billymg: but also have nfi what this looks like with actual numbers and in the actual market right now
phf: migrations is always such a pain though
signpost: that's exactly how we financed ourselves; hands-on full service shop at the beginning that'd build the restaurant's website, and bolt in our online ordering.
signpost: later when the product was more complete we focused on that, dropped the marketing work
signpost: the former was a bitch; clients want to pay nothing and tweak endlessly.
signpost: better to get a few giant accounts if you're going to do that, and bend over backwards for them, than go wide
signpost bbl, relocating
billymg: signpost: the trick is managing their expectations upfront, outlining "cost-per-tweak" upfront
billymg: but yes, i've dealt with it first hand and know that in practice it's sometimes hard to say no when the client says "but could we just make this one section a little bigger" and how those start to add up
asciilifeform would happily participate in signpost's scheme but likely is wrong type of plumber
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101395 << outta curiosity, what counts as 'soft target' ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 13:22:00 signpost: but if anybody else has a soft target to propose I'm open to ideas, so long as nobody tries to get me to sign away my ability to author items myself.
verisimilitude: A soft target is easy to penetrate, right?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'easy' typically means that someone already penetrated tho
verisimilitude: So, in business as in women, I see.
asciilifeform: or anywhere else
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-26#1099133 Has that family member shut up now, billymg?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-26 01:11:40 billymg: i've got these family members, one of whom i set up with a paper wallet back in '15 or so. now the other family member is telling the former "you should put that on coinbase, where it's regulated"
billymg: verisimilitude: lol, have not trolled them with the recent news yet
billymg: did troll another "i'll keep them on coinbase thankyouverymuch" friend though
asciilifeform wonders whatever happened to those folx w/ the 'bake trb kit for illiterates' 'biz'
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere jfw
dulapbot: jfw last seen in #trinque on 2020-10-24 02:57:20: trinque: thank you for the wallet service and help yourself to a $beverage with whatever's left after the withdrawal txn fee.
billymg: asciilifeform: they're still at it http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2022/jwrd-logs-for-May-2022/
phf: they kind of remind of oglaf's dwarves, https://imgur.com/gallery/n488M6N
asciilifeform: billymg: from cursory look at linked pg, seems like they're still banging head against the cpp turd, lol
asciilifeform naively pictured that 3+y is moar than enuff time to bake a sane client, for N d00dz who otherwise not occupied w/ anyffin, and realize the need for such
asciilifeform: evidently not..
signpost looks forward to gales linux suddenly growing a "gbuild" with src in vpatches.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101421 << yep no doubts you're capable of making such a thing work.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 13:33:12 billymg: but yes, i've dealt with it first hand and know that in practice it's sometimes hard to say no when the client says "but could we just make this one section a little bigger" and how those start to add up
billymg: asciilifeform: i thought the way the events played out was bizarre. here are two guys, one a talented cs guy, the other a talented sales guy (as far as i can judge), who come late to a dying cult, and after the cult is fully dead, and leader himself dead no less, they continue to... align with the cult
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101422 << would be 100% welcome. perhaps in re: what constitutes a sane, distributed control plane for embedded widgets.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 13:44:20 asciilifeform: would happily participate in signpost's scheme but likely is wrong type of plumber
asciilifeform: billymg: that part not mega-surprise, hey, there's still folx praying to odin somewhere
signpost: billymg: arguably I'm still "aligned with the cult" so I can't really level a critique at that
billymg would welcome either one of them if they showed up here or in #pest and wanted to work towards any number of things being worked on here
asciilifeform: signpost: pestronic teleoperation could be interesting
signpost: I'll still make fun of their golf attire though.
signpost: asciilifeform: mhm, exactly that
billymg: signpost: i don't mean "aligned with the cult" in sense of "still consider myself a republican", but still aligned with what it devolved into in the end
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101447 This seems like a category error to me.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 14:22:29 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101422 << would be 100% welcome. perhaps in re: what constitutes a sane, distributed control plane for embedded widgets.
asciilifeform: signpost: or even e.g. anti-ddos pill which actually worx, say
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 18:50:48 asciilifeform: ( and we haven't even touched the implications of practically impossible to ddos hosting etc. )
signpost: verisimilitude: then say how, because the fella seems to know what I mean.
billymg: i got the impression that signpost still aligns with what it once was/could have been -- the ideal -- not the mad king run thing at the end
signpost: eh, even getting mad at the guy, it's an admission that I regret his collapse.
verisimilitude: Firstly, let us agree on the meanings of ``embedded'' and ``widgets'', signpost.
billymg: i regret it too, and regret that he didn't take over the world (would've preferred that to globohomo). but now that that's not the case, seems silly to continue to hitch your wagon to that horse
signpost: no argument.
phf: billymg: why though? those guys came significantly late in the proceedings, knew presumably what they were signing up for, and were ok with it
signpost: verisimilitude: any device you might field for any reason, and wish that to supply data to a distributed system reliably.
signpost: and also to respond to command.
billymg: phf: that's what i meant when i said i found it bizarre. you'd think (or i'd think at least) that those with less time invested would find it easier to move on afterwards
signpost: maybe they were around earlier under other names, or who knows
phf: billymg: i think they are genuine fans of mp, rather than tmsr
verisimilitude: I retract the accusation of a category error, signpost.
phf: now is kind of like the best time to be mp fan, man left lots of texts, that one can interpret without fear of getting called out, and they have significant claim to "the teachings" not having been cast out. seems like a perfect recipe for cozy little community
verisimilitude: Those are called cults, phf.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101423 << perhaps the fearful middle during collapse, I think.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 13:50:34 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101395 << outta curiosity, what counts as 'soft target' ?
phf: start wearing suits and walking around with canes, make sexual analogies for every subject, "looky, the cunt will fill up, there's no method"
phf: i think even welshcomputing is insufficiently what it's supposed to be!
dulapbot: (trilema) 2019-09-07 mircea_popescu: market schmarket, markets are created not identified.
signpost: oh ok god-dad.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2019-09-07 mircea_popescu: that's your market identification right there, it's identified : i want to buy the washington monument for pennies. they'll sell it, as they have to, because they're old.
signpost: there's this ancient hubris, where a man that's consistently smarter than most people thinks this means smarter than the natural process producing the people.
signpost: that process gives not one shit about any particular person.
signpost: phf: what was the thing you said about orthodox christianity, that jesus loves you, but not *you*!
phf: signpost: i'm still mulling over my disappointment that welshcomputing mp cult is not proper cult-like
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-10-03 phf: i'm not sure, but not in the way that phrase is cliche in english. god loves you, christ acts from inner great love. i'm not sure christ loves ~you~ as such
signpost: phf: maybe in 50 more years the guy gets a proper devoted peasant castration cult that agrees they're normie cucks.
signpost: precedent exists for these
signpost: Rite of the Dulapidated
phf: signpost: i think *you* and ~you~ are different inflections :p yours seem to imply some kind of internal paradox of "christ loves you" as a principle, that at the same time doesn't apply on concrete individual level
signpost: plural vs specific you is what I was using; english is trash.
phf: where's in orthodox church christ's love is that of a stern patriarch (that is back when such terms had meaning) or a shepherd over the flock: he'll be genuinely sad when he has to punish you, but he will do it for the common good, etc.
signpost: to my mind that common good takes the idea that we're not actually separate as foundation, if not usually explicitly stated.
signpost: the sin's that the creature behaves like he's separate from god, which is not possible if there were a god.
mats: we are all little gods running around barefoot
mats: praise me
signpost: tricking all the meatsacks into attacking the same point in unison is mighty technology; I'm not going to arrogantly shit on it.
signpost: whether such a trick's longevity says something about its approximation of reality is above my paygrade.
phf: signpost: i don't get how my god comment is tied to the preceeding comments on mp though http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101487 etc.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 14:48:38 signpost: that process gives not one shit about any particular person.
signpost: I went from the "looky the cunt will fill up" to his non-statements on how to build a business.
signpost: to what killed him
signpost: I misunderstood your thing about what orthodox "god's love" is, but I like my misunderstanding better.
phf: that i figured, but how does it tie to the god loves you, but not you? you mean like even if you have a gilded life, you can still drown in the sea?
signpost: that if the guy beating your ass to correct you doesn't realize that you and he are not separate, he's going to start liking giving the beatings, and that will take over.
signpost: mp thought he beat reality itself, as far as I can tell. personified.
signpost: iirc it's on trilema somewhere, that "I held my finger up, said bang, the world fell down"
signpost: self-awarely said ^
phf: i dunno, that's just will. william burroughs has his character shoot at the moon and the sky to make a hole in the film of reality and all the people in the known cry out "stop him, he's not just going for our cozy little operation, he'll bring the whole theater down, run for your lives every man for himself". it's a pretty poetic way to describe a total, unrelenting opposition to the sttatus quo on an existential level
signpost: will of what towards what.
signpost quite done admiring suicidality, "look at the balls on this guy, giving the finger to all reality"
phf: will as archetype, towards what though is variable, kind of whole point of e.g. romantic literature is will with no way to realize it
signpost: the problem this thing - defiance of the gods - is trying to compensate, is that the ride ends abruptly and without recourse.
signpost: from another angle, what, europe was wrong about god, but not the soul also?
signpost: this is also my answer to you why mp has no lasting respectable cult. at the root of the cosmology, there were the categories "mp" and "everything else"
signpost: same goes for your shoot a hole in the sky guy, though I admit to not knowing the reference.
phf: i don't get your point at all :) can you restate it in simpler words, preferably in terms of whores and penises?
signpost: "fucked one cunt you've fucked 'em all"
phf: the cult question was a joke, like the "shootout" scene from the movie legend
signpost: well look, I can't go untake all the acid. too late for me.
phf: "i came here for a proper fucking cult with proper fucking men" etc.
signpost: pretty good
signpost: I dunno man, if we're going to do 3000 more years of will to power, and pissing on rocks, I think I'll just go roll a joint somewhere and smile.
phf: i didn't mention power
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101524 << ahahaha imma use this next time JW's show up "Nah I just think Gods are like whores ....."
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 15:29:47 signpost: "fucked one cunt you've fucked 'em all"
signpost: some dick destroying reality because he can is definitely will-to-power in the limit.
signpost: nietszche's term
phf: signpost: yeah, but… that's like… your opinion man!
signpost: sho nuff
phf: nah, i'm not buying it. would breaking the walls of the prison you're in will to power? or picking up a tree log, because you have the strength to do so?
signpost: I took the guy ripping reality to mean that he was going to "bring the whole theater down" meaning break the universe, which includes him.
signpost: you're imagining some third-person view to whom this act means something; I'm not
signpost: or rather, this is how I take ya
signpost: the prison, sure, burn it. and burn anyone who imprisons you.
signpost: to take a step back for a sec, I think there are stupid notions buried very deep in european-OS.
phf: signpost: if you shoot the moon of the film you're in, that's the whole you escape through of course. while they are panicking, we're going to get out through the backdoor, duh
phf: *that's the hole
signpost: if there's an into-what, makes it different.
signpost: got out into something that doesn't succumb to heat death / big crunch, hooray, game gets moar cycles
phf: signpost: you're talking some kind of framework, and i'm talking archetypes, poetry. it doesn't need to make sense, in some kind of coherent cosmological way!
signpost: brb, but there we differ eh!
signpost: got a delivery guy here, sec
phf: in the extreme case of this position you could say that a lunatic doesn't care that there's the heat death of the universe (how do you even know that by the way?), because lives in his head
signpost: I was giving a reason it might be rational to break the reality you're leaving behind.
signpost: if there was what-else to escape into.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091145 << the reason why to bother with any of it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 17:11:00 phf: signpost: i've maybe come to the same conclusion as you, that you can't have the civilization without the transcendental.
signpost: christendom beget the enlightenment rationality that destroyed it. not coming back.
signpost: and anyone with a head that still works is polishing an heirloom pulled from the context which made it meaningful, and defending as isolated tautology.
signpost: this was your well-reasoned critique of my ability to appreciate classical music compared to those that shared its context.
signpost: 100% agree with it, btw.
phf: well to close one loop though, i don't think that mp's shoot the sky was nihilistic
phf: that is that it didn't necessarily need to be, could be that, could be will to power, could be some kind of mystical poetry
signpost: yeah, I could be charitable and grant that it wasn't.
phf: oh remembered apropos aguirre scene :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKPJBd7gniw
signpost: blasphemy is only exciting while god lives.
signpost: "woah that guy said the naughty, and won a few battles"
signpost: these succumb to the reality warping used to assemble them.
phf: well in aguirre's case the blasphemy is of a very particular kind, luceferian, that's like high blasphemy. we're mostly left with debased kind
signpost grants that mp spoke defiance to the living gods.
phf: actually probably not even that, he's claiming himself to be a god's proxy, without rejecting god
signpost: satan's god's proxy in job, not incompatible
phf: well lucifer claimed himself to be equal to god
signpost: iirc he asked permission to torment job regardless of claims to equality
signpost: at any rate I don't hold this in high regard because it was written a long time ago.
phf: by dead white men no less
signpost: not even gay ones
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101496 I've solved this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 14:57:25 signpost: plural vs specific you is what I was using; english is trash.
signpost: upstack, I'm saying that this "shoot a hole in the sky" is an archetype which is meaningful in the context of thinking men escaping christianity.
signpost: *escaping*, forever.
verisimilitude: Jesus loves you, but not thee!
phf: signpost: well, it's also meaningful in that context, but not
signpost: verisimilitude: tbh this is why I stopped ripping on your archaisms.
phf: *but not only
signpost: christianity rules, not the thinking men. even now.
signpost: just took its final form as motherstate.
verisimilitude: I realized a man who only fights against degenerations in his time isn't really fighting them, but ceding ground.
signpost will listen to the "not only"
phf: i mean shoot a hole in the sky is straight up koan (the one with the nun and a bucket)
signpost: easy to get stuck forever escaping, and not escaped, with those too.
verisimilitude: Rather than continue with English, and eventually break into Old English akin to Beowulf, it was better to start learning Latin instead.
phf: signpost: well, i don't think aguirre is a fable, because you know it's for grownups, his failure does not necessarily mean "don't go looking for eldorado, cause you gon die", even his hubris is not necessarily to be judged, in this case his will is what took him and his party far enough
verisimilitude: Even then, I've learned so much about English I'd never thought to question.
phf: so the idea that escape is from somewhere to somewhere worse is kind of like a moot point often
signpost: the thing I'm rejecting is that it's useful to lie. it's entirely useful to suppose.
signpost: the inward-lying is the kind discussed.
signpost: can one will without knowingly lying?
signpost: possibly we differ there, if anywhere.
signpost could be 100% full of shit, but attempting to emit as little shit as can be avoided.
signpost: and there's a why to ^ that might not be a shared prior.
verisimilitude: It's good to be honest with oneself.
phf: i dunno, you keep bringing in these new concepts, rational, lying :>
verisimilitude: Every time someone tries to assuage a bad situation with ``It's okay.'' I counter with ``It doesn't matter if it be okay.'' and variations.
signpost: phf: it's alright to leave things at us not agreeing that they're related.
verisimilitude: I'm a fun person around whom to be, obviously.
verisimilitude: The women love a man who never lies, right?
phf: like you need to define what lie is, because i understand it in very concrete terms "bearing false witness against thy neighbour", or you know "who took the cookie? -- not me"
signpost: phf: I have provided you with an update to your model of reality which does not match mine.
phf: but like is your pastor lying to you, because he ought to know that god doesn't exist science says so
signpost: and inward lying is the intentional debasement of one's own model of reality.
phf: signpost: what would be an example of that in the realm of the previous points in the conversation?
verisimilitude: Faith is hope, and it's better to be hopeless.
signpost: sec, just realized my texan dropping of words made something ambiguous.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101576 << *solely because
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 16:16:14 signpost: at any rate I don't hold this in high regard because it was written a long time ago.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101479 << for example, that this is certainly not the manner in which mp made his own money.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 14:42:19 phf: start wearing suits and walking around with canes, make sexual analogies for every subject, "looky, the cunt will fill up, there's no method"
phf: signpost: oh, but that's a fanclub thing though, not about money at all
signpost: then we had no real aspirations to do anything in the world.
phf: wait i don't get it
signpost: np, I'm probably still giving half-models here. will try again.
signpost: guy claims to have stuck a fork in usg repeatedly.
phf: the reason why his fanclub should do these things is cause that's what fanclubsdo
signpost: creates a gathering of folks who consider the thing an enemy to everything good.
signpost: "baus what's the method by which we can get moar leverage against this evil?"
signpost: to which he replies, if you don't know, eat shit and die.
signpost doesn't need a leg up, but this is the worst leadership I've ever seen, from one of the most otherwise brilliant people I've encountered.
signpost: if you see value in it as an art project, maybe it continues to animate other things that well justify it, that's alright with me.
signpost: but the above is my view.
phf: signpost: so are you arguing whether or not mp should have fans at all?
phf: i sort of took the existence of his fans (whether or not he's wrong on points) as a given, and was saying that they are not acting sufficiently fan like.
signpost: I think he will be forgotten for the stated reasons, and "why such a puny fandom?" is because it's in progress.
phf: he'll be forgotten because he gave you bad advise once? i mean i don't disagree that he will probably be forgotten, but that's flimsy grounds :>
signpost: eh, models of reality are too distant. I'm not gonna take the other side of that.
signpost: often has seemed like there's a cultural gap here. "of course the role of a leader is to shit into your head"
phf: signpost: that's not a nice thing to say, if you think through the implications
signpost: well, and the reduction of my statement to "bad advice one time" is low effort.
signpost: was actually trying to be charitable and figure out why that's how you see it.
signpost: lemme try again. I don't consider that the bad advice was one particular instance.
phf: signpost: i dunno why you got all bristled, i thought we were having a nice conversation
signpost: not at all bristled. brought up culture for this reason.
signpost: perhaps you deem that mp was as he should've been, and I can see reasons to defend that view.
signpost: up until the point that it fails to work.
phf: ah, no looky
signpost: (and it's funny you think that the cultural gap must mean I'm of the better one :p)
phf: signpost: no, what you said is not nice /directly/ without further implications. "you are of culture where leader shit into your head" is the equivalent. i would not find that offensive if i also saw "shitting into ones head" as a positive thing, but i don't :>
signpost: I don't avoid treading into offensive places if it's a more direct route to figuring out what the hell we're talking about.
signpost: I presented a model that was wrong, and you can thereby fix it.
signpost: what is the redeeming quality of that leader that I've failed to understand?
signpost: "those are pretty words about the generation starship you want us to build, boss. any notions on how to pay for it?"
phf: signpost: i don't know how this conversation turned into me defending mp, but here's what i think, i think that you have the kakobrekla mental bug, since you know we are being honest, which manifests in a kind of obsessive "this man was the devil" line
phf: to some extent i got dragged away from pleasant metaphysics into a conversation how bad man was bad, where's i don't support your further
signpost: what you did is got upset that I dared misunderstand your perspective.
signpost: so, eh, yawn.
phf: signpost: what?
signpost: we can leave it be.
phf: you're entirely projecting
signpost: the metaphysical conversation benefits from examples if one's head isn't partitioned so.
signpost: mp isn't badman. upstack we were discussing the context in which one might have business in here.
signpost: that these things are not all connected *to you* is fine.
signpost: and that there's a class of men where it's unseemly to discuss their failings, alright.
phf: _in here_? i was discussing a fanclub that someone else has, welshcomputing guys
signpost: this thwarts doing it better.
signpost: dunno how one discusses the welshderps without discussing the source material for the affectations.
phf: signpost: because the affectations are supposed to be funny?
phf: his fanclub in the form of welshcomputing also supposed to be funny
phf: the way the conversation started from my perspective is me basically going "your grandpa had a funny way of talking. kids these days! pop was only 2 cents!" and normally a conversation like that goes something like "heheh, yeah, get of my lawn! heheh" but instead it went "he raped me you know. that man raped me"
signpost: that's a bizarre interpretation.
signpost: I was discussing my reading of nietzsche and heidegger again.
signpost: there is something broken in every man, not mp.
signpost: whether you care is your own problem.
signpost: I will continue to connect things as I see fit, and state them here, and folks are welcome to say where I fail.
phf: i don't think that interpretation is particularly bizarre (i mean you'd figure since i made it), because we were talking about lying and i couldn't understand how it connects to previous conversation, so as an example you brought up a very particular point from your past, which is very tenuously connected to the subject of lying
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101593 << rec to try... icelandic: rather resembles an alt-universe english which never lost cases, grammatic sex, etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 16:20:57 verisimilitude: Rather than continue with English, and eventually break into Old English akin to Beowulf, it was better to start learning Latin instead.
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101629 was the punchline. so that is an illustration for how mp was a bad leader, or just generally a jerk, but what's it to do with lying?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 16:37:46 signpost: to which he replies, if you don't know, eat shit and die.
signpost: well, whether you think so is your problem. you brought up why the only thing left of the man was sad imitation of affect. I said why.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101655 << fwiw asciilifeform's pov is that 'ineffectual crackpot', rather than 'devil'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 17:00:21 phf: signpost: i don't know how this conversation turned into me defending mp, but here's what i think, i think that you have the kakobrekla mental bug, since you know we are being honest, which manifests in a kind of obsessive "this man was the devil" line
verisimilitude: Perhaps I may, if I've ever the time, asciilifeform.
signpost: phf: to pick an example, you'll tell me that "srs man of biznis" considered starting a commodity web hosting business in UY was a serious attempt at achieving his objectives?
signpost: and really, I'll only continue if you accept that what I want is to succeed, and not to bitch about the badman.
signpost: if not, what's the point.
signpost: or that "chinese miner conspiracy" was anything but petulance?
signpost: self-thwarted. all along the way.
phf: signpost: well, i can talk about these things if we just accept that the subject of conversation was changed, rather me failing to understand how it connects with nietche and lying
phf: *rather than
signpost: nah, I'll just park it.
phf: man i still don't understand why you got so bent out of shape
signpost: I'm not, but establishing priors seems to be running into something. can't say what.
signpost happy to grant that he has not emitted enough coherent model to connect these things, and apologizes to phf for implying he was perhaps of a destructive culture.
phf: is that a texan thing? you can't acknowledge that you're mad?
signpost: nah, I'm as confused as you are bud.
signpost: "these things are all connected; what's not coming across?"
phf: well, i'm explicitly not understanding how mp's incompetence as a leader is connected to previous points, lying and nietche and all that
signpost: nietzsche deals at length with men being stuck in revenge against dead-god.
phf: but if they are not, and it's just a different subject, then that's fine we can talk about it
signpost: this is a stuck state. it can't be untangled without destroying and redefining terms.
signpost: the thing doesn't exist, and the creature wishes revenge upon the thing for not existing.
signpost: this is one place we might diverge. I see this stuck-desire-for-revenge in all "shoot the sky"
signpost: if you'll for a moment set aside that I can only use that symbol in the manner used today, and not contextualized in whatever it was written.
phf: ok with you so far, your perspective is that mp's shoot the sky is a revenge against non-existent god for not existing.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-09#1100817 << also worth mentioning that I have a pretty heavy definition for what the forum is for, to be the arena in which these cracks at the unanswerables occur.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-09 18:55:07 signpost: perhaps in this framing good is what gives the coordinating human object as many cracks at the unanswerables as possible
phf: but how is that connected to the idea of lying?
signpost: "revenge against god for not existing" is a falsehood, cannot be.
signpost: there isn't that against which to take revenge, per the statement, leaving aside reality.
phf: ok, so shoot the sky is revenge against god, which is a lie because can't revenge against something that didn't exist
phf: how is that connected to mp's ineffectual leadership?
signpost: going to try to create some additional context, so take it as that, rather than leaping to someting else I want to yell about.
signpost: do we actually want to be rid of our current circumstances? out of the empire, salt the ground where it stood?
signpost: the alternative would be to be the marginal characters that know better, drifting in the sea of ignorance forever.
signpost: if my descendents are going to have their minds invaded by the same technological hell that's crept into my house, I say stop the project.
signpost: whatever hell may or may not be, we'll have created it.
signpost: so the question would be whether this is fixable, is poorly constructed, is inevitable.
signpost: *the model posed by me is poorly constructed
signpost: ftr, wife helps me beat this back out of the house at every turn. wasn't a comment on her.
phf: ok, so the context is your concern with replacing current circumstances, particularly when it comes to infiltration of technology into daily life
signpost: of totalitarianism into my web of trust.
signpost: and not a particular -ism, but the corruption of them into facilitating their own destruction.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097255 << could say I'm trying to answer you this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 15:14:03 phf: asciilifeform: nor do i think the upstack will get lost, at least not by my doing, because without resolving it, /i/ don't really see any reason to do anything. why would i need peh to chat to you guys about good old days, can do it here fine
phf: ok, so the context is your concern with replacing current circumstances, particularly when it comes to infiltration of technology into daily life and particular negatives modes of interpersonal relationship mediated by such technology
signpost: all of that is true, and I would synthesize further into "the derangement of shared model-of-reality which necessarily leads to destruction, broadly and individually"
signpost: distortion of markets would as easily fit this category as lying to my wife about whether I love her.
phf: is it maybe the case that it's not connected in the form of a logical structure, but thematically connected? mp
phf: mp's god lie perhaps is the foundational delusion that makes him into an iffectual leader, and you took this particular line of exploration, because the question of his leadership is important from the framing perspective of what do?
signpost: exactly that.
signpost: we can set him aside and ask whether prometheus helped anybody by setting the aspiration of man against the gods just as well.
signpost: is man at war with the gods or himself.
signpost: or say, what a stupid construction it is to say that flying is defiance of gravity.
phf: an alternative way to structure a dialog is that of a thesis, and that's the one i tend to employ, that's where statement are connected by their logical relationships in a hypothetical shared in-the-head thesis (that's where the idea of priors come from, by the way, it's the postulates at the beginning of litereally thesis work that establishes foundational assumptions of the future argument). from that perspective thematic connections
phf: tend to be confusing, which is also where bulk of misunderstanding came from. you're just talking, where i'm in "dialog" mode.
signpost: it's hard to do so here, because I don't have a specific proposal of what to do.
signpost: only a line of inquiry
signpost: I can understand that, and thank you for your effort to pull out a thesis from me.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101638 << let me also macroexpand this, because it was unskillful. it could be defended (even if I don't believe) that "leaders must use propaganda to shape the behavior of lesser men" and mp considered us his lessers.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 16:46:00 signpost: often has seemed like there's a cultural gap here. "of course the role of a leader is to shit into your head"
signpost: it was in this direction I was groping, and not a shot at you specifically.
verisimilitude: The only reason a leader wouldn't manipulate his lessers is if he had no need for them.
signpost: verisimilitude: well, maybe someday I will ascend such that derangement of my's L1 doesn't backflow into myself, nor rob me of whatever value I may derive from the iterated game with them, but that's not today.
phf: signpost: i don't think that what mp was saying was propaganda for the masses, to what extent he himself belived what he was saying (about e.g. china conspiracy) i don't know
signpost: in either case, one hopes that this isn't exemplar, to leave room for novel failings to come, and also dissected.
signpost: *to be also dissected.
phf: i don't see things like that as a lie though, and allow a lot of poetic license, besides i don't see it as any kind of contributor to failure
verisimilitude: Don't worry, signpost; I'm certain we'll live to see human failings of which we previously couldn't conceive.
signpost: verisimilitude: "father forgive me, I did an original sin. I poked a badger with a spoon" (tm) (r) (eddie izzard)
phf: i mean don quixote was not intentionally fighting windmills, nor was he insane in the context of the story, in fact servantes raises similar questions to what we're discussing
phf: who needs a knight in a post-knights world, and what's one to do
signpost: well, that's the heart of the disagreement right?
phf: signpost: well, we disagree about a bunch of other points :)
signpost: there is a traditional what-to-do that one might criticize. or not.
phf: i'll get to them
signpost: that's alright too.
signpost: o/^ what do you do with a general, when he stops being a general o/^
phf: but then how did you reconcile those fibs?? i have a framework for it
phf: i have a literary baggage that lets me follow an aquirre, despite the fact that he's claiming that he can literally will the birds to fall off the trees
signpost: at the time? I thought he was consciously propagandizing.
signpost: as I suggested above.
phf: but you were ok with being propagandized back then?
signpost: as I recall I stayed out of the business dealings of people who weren't me.
signpost: and stopped what I was doing for a few weeks to try and salvage what of the wot there was.
signpost: building deedbot etc.
signpost: one guy being loudly wrong becomes more costly the more that guy declares himself monarch of a republic.
signpost: and as it happened, the more worthless of the bunch appeared to end up on the assbot end of the schism, so what to make of that?
signpost: or perhaps one disagrees.
signpost: I suppose I saw him as covering his ass, and allowed it. I can accept the criticism that it was a mistake.
phf: yeah, man
phf: like there was no inherent animosity in my perspective, that is i didn't think twice about "we'll rule over the americas" claims, because it's such a trope, and not inherently malicous one
signpost: sounds very much like "I never believed it" which is what I said also.
signpost: your don quixote is also protecting himself from the shame that the world has no place for him.
phf: have you read don quixote?
signpost: no, I'm going on your usage.
signpost: you're excusing the man for living in his own delusions because it was rendered beautifully by someone you enjoy.
signpost: but criticizing me for seeing him as delusional and not caring as much then as I do now.
phf: signpost: don quixote was an analogy, i said it was a trope, because it's part of human condition rather than "somebody wrote once"
phf: what i am criticizing is that your perspective the way you presented it was anti-, rather then pro-, and it's a pretty big anti-
phf: the point of "i never believed it" is usually to highlight that the thing was bad, and you knew it was bad all along
signpost: didn't think it was bad at the time. thought it was the toupe on an otherwise pretty smart dude.
phf: where's i won't even say something like that, i believe that group cohesion relies on shared delusions
signpost: looking back, seeing it as more foundational to the dysfunction.
phf: *say something like "i never believe it"
phf: e.g. believing that "tomorrow we will rule america" makes you act as if you would, who the hell knows maybe we will? tomorrow? hell yeah! to the barricades! etc.
phf: i mean mp wasn't the only one constructing delusions, somebody (i forgot who) had the "fbi at the door" running story, asciilifeform claimed every network disruption was done by feds (*i'm exagerating for comedic effect)
phf: was it bingoboingo with the fbi at the door?
signpost: the only difference here is I'm saying the experiment has been run, and not just here.
signpost: we see the same things.
signpost: would be useful to pull apart ambition from fact here.
signpost: there's nothing false about ambition necessarily.
signpost: where ambition becomes lie is the declaration being the whole of the work.
signpost: "Mission Accomplished"
signpost: phf: how about "I will conquer the commodity hosting business from a country with half a pipe" for delusion? meaning no jab at anyone.
signpost: we'd probably agree that shared constructs are required to form a group. I'm not sold on shared grandiose vision.
phf: signpost: i don't think that was a delusion at all! the "conquer" part is a motivator, but the "half a pipe" was only discovered in the process. certainly nobody spoke up, /i/ never spoke up, because it just didn't occur to me. certainly not as a strong objection
signpost: the guy picked that as the hill to die upon, recall.
phf: honestly i think pizaro was a whicked cool project and hats off to bingoboingo for doing it
signpost: really not the point I'm hitting upon. it was difficult and they did a good job pulling it off.
phf: it's gumptious, there was all kinds of drama but also practical shit that needed to happen, and did
signpost: explain to me how this was the brainchild of a man of srs bsns with the amount of btc he claimed.
signpost: sure, boss said go do this hard thing, and they did. now what.
signpost: they can feel good in that they accomplished it; there's no question about that.
phf: is that a rhetorical explain? because i was about to :>
signpost: don't grok the question
signpost: I'm not being sarcastic.
signpost: I'm saying that the next time somebody comes with a nice hat, classical education, and tiddies in tow with grand ideas, I'm going to go back to what I was doing.
phf: you said "explain to me", so i'm asking is that a rhetorical device or?
signpost: oh, sorry, go ahead.
phf: ok, so i'll now need to provide my own framing, "the how of tmsr" the way i understood it at the time
signpost: I will have to run soon, so at least that will give ya some uninterupted space to say.
signpost will reply this evening
phf: mp made it very clear that he's not willing to be a mecenate, and that he would, at best, maybe invest some money into republican projects, which in itself ought to be seen as a charity
phf: the early republic, and come to think of it, it might predate your time, had at least a bit of "school of mp" thing going
phf: that is again, and you can agree with this or not, but this was mp's explicit position, was a kind of charity where he taught his approach to life, to those willing to learn
phf: so the republic, the way i saw it, was not supposed to be to mp's financial benefit in the short term, nor was it going to be funded by him.
phf: it was a forum, where by following certain principles that we establish for ourselves we'll be able to solve that framing problem that you brought up
phf: now we can go into the weeds of how, but for the purposes of this elaboration i'll keep it short, and only mention what i think is a representative subset of mp's pragmatic answers to "how"
phf: acquire as much btc as you possibly can by any means possible, e.g. sell all your assets and invest them into btc, get a bunch of fiat debt and buy btc, if you have nothing to sell and you can't take on debt, then spend most of your paycheck (i believe one of the articles said %90 or whatever) on btc for some period
phf: step two was to then move to a cheap, dodgy and preferably tropical country, obv with all that btc in tow. if you have debt that you're reneging on, then you're also "running away", but the idea doesn't change
phf: step three is to then establish a kind of meet wot presence in your country of choice, primarily establishing a local btc exchange process for yourself
phf: so obv depending on how much btc you have in tow you either live in a mansion with slaves or you find the cheapest room/etc bb style, at this point presumably and if you planned well you have for all practical purposes an infinite runway. you live in your shack or whatever, periodically cashing in btc, indefinitely. now that's kind of like the baseline: you are now free to participate inthe btc economy, or republican economy
phf: at which point you build a business, that relies on the republican infrastructure, following the republican way, etc. pgp contracts, irc for comms, blog for presence, etc.
phf: now what your business actually is is sort of your business. some of it was emergent from the needs of the republic (e.g. deedbot), some of it was suggested by mp. you're basically doing a full startup, with the above requirements and realities in mind
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101795 << iirc he had (by all appearances) bona fide fbi at the door. (and then reprieved somehow)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 18:57:03 phf: was it bingoboingo with the fbi at the door?
phf: that's it, that's the whole mp tmsr plan, and i think it /was/ solid af.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101802 << from asciilifeform's pov, this was 'beginning of end'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 19:04:21 signpost: phf: how about "I will conquer the commodity hosting business from a country with half a pipe" for delusion? meaning no jab at anyone.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 23:23:35 asciilifeform: per asciilifeform's lights, e.g piz was a suicide mission, already a product of 'must succeed the mp way, with human torpedo , or doesn't count' , the correct solution to 'hosting sux' was p2pism and asciilifeform noted as much at the time
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101804 << not exactly 'in the process' -- was already known the whole place had precisely 1 usable dc before BingoBoingo signed contract
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 19:06:07 phf: signpost: i don't think that was a delusion at all! the "conquer" part is a motivator, but the "half a pipe" was only discovered in the process. certainly nobody spoke up, /i/ never spoke up, because it just didn't occur to me. certainly not as a strong objection
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101831 << this is interesting to think about again in light of recent years , where reich succeeded quite well at preventing 'to the moon'(tm)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 19:38:48 phf: so obv depending on how much btc you have in tow you either live in a mansion with slaves or you find the cheapest room/etc bb style, at this point presumably and if you planned well you have for all practical purposes an infinite runway. you live in your shack or whatever, periodically cashing in btc, indefinitely. now that's kind of like the baseline: you are now free to participate inthe btc economy, or republican economy
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-19 13:03:00 asciilifeform: the reason why various 2010s 'they'll ban goxes!' prognoses (incl. asciilifeform's) came to nuffin, is that turns out goxes are a very effective instrument of exchrate control, and therefore quite valuable to the reich.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-09 13:14:02 asciilifeform: reich succeeded in jacking up btc-usd rate by flooding goxmarket w/ papercoin; after which exchrate stiffly correlated with all other reich paper.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-31 23:04:14 asciilifeform: gotta keep lights on until the quasi-mythical 'victory day' when exch rate grows that new 0
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo
dulapbot: BingoBoingo last seen in #asciilifeform on 2022-02-28 12:49:43: In the past month US down ~19% versus Brasil's Real, 5.3% versus Peso Uruguay
asciilifeform: ^ hey BingoBoingo , wakeup!
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-27 11:55:24 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if you dun intend to renew your subscription, plox to gpggram re: snailmail addr for return of yer colo machine.
phf: asciilifeform: ftr the "plan" was in place when 1btc was <$1000, in fact "sell all your shit now and move" comedically came out couple of months before 1btc became $8000 for the first time
asciilifeform: phf: right, iirc '17
asciilifeform: hm notquite right
asciilifeform: usd-btc ~2.5k on that day.
asciilifeform: possib. correct re 'couple mo later' tho
asciilifeform: still is interesting q, how many folx 'took suitcase and ran to mexico' w/ xx btc, which nao -- running dry
asciilifeform: 'market can stay irrational longer than you stay solvent'(tm)(r)(c)
phf: asciilifeform: a beach bum lifestyle in mexico will cost you <800$ a month. if you ignore the plan, then yes run out. otherwise /the mp way/ is being extremely and pragmatically stingy with your coin
asciilifeform: well plan also includes 'don't get seriously ill' & other caveats. but sure
phf: young man's game
phf: also, "seriously ill" is a fraction of cost. what means seriously anyway? suddenly develop a degenerative condition, sure, but then you're fucked either way. my near death experience hardly cost me a coin
phf: and that's at a premium place in moscow
phf: anyway, i'm going to wrap up, because need to have dinner, but from the perspective above, pizaro totally made sense
asciilifeform fwiw even when paid for it already did not think it 'made sense' from rational economic pov.
asciilifeform: exactly like fg not made sense
asciilifeform: saw as gamble on ~very~ long odds.
phf: did you read what i wrote?
asciilifeform still catching up on log but did read last 20m
asciilifeform also gotta dinner, will bbl
phf: anyway, asciilifeform broke my train of thought, and i'm already ancipating all the "but but but my electron microscope" objections, so i'll wrap it up fast
phf: pizaro was a half assed last ditch attempt to force an implementation of the plan on somebody willing
phf: in this case the choice of principal decides the success, bb being a poor bum would've succeeded if pizarro was simply solvent enough to sustain him, thus actually making him a test subject of this wholy btc funded lifestyle
phf: you know the first genuine republican of our myths: a man with a network and skills doing something that contributes to the commons
phf: (i'll take back the "half assed", what i mean is that it was a hail marry)
asciilifeform: phf: BingoBoingo ftr was a hero of fuel efficiency. ate so little that in fact asciilifeform personally supplied ~100% of the req. fiatola for most of the adventure. problem, however, was that in the scheme were ~too many~ 'microscopes', rather than too few :
asciilifeform: phf: to 'break even', operation would've had not only to run BingoBoingo , but to cover the ~3k$/mo rack, the machines, resupply flights, (future) expansions, etc.
phf: well yes, netto
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, asciilifeform's isp today is in fact +ev, as piz never was. but naturally 'the glamour is gone'
phf: what glamour?
asciilifeform fwiw practices a heretical (per classical tmsr) philosophy of 'how to make btc economy' today.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-14 19:57:24 asciilifeform: recommends his strategy -- of conducting biz in btc strictly to fill a hodl -- to others, but not under illusion that it is generally applicable
asciilifeform: phf: the piz 'we'll make uncensored offshore isp!' glamour
phf: i'm starting to suspect i was part of an entirely different republic :D
asciilifeform: 'Я был на другой войне'((tm)
phf: the glamour of pizaro was that it was republican in details, rather than that it was "offhorse etc."
asciilifeform not disagrees, but observes that 'bananistan' was a hard req. and seconded by asciilifeform personally
phf: "out of reach of reich!"
asciilifeform: was the notion.
phf: i can kind of see how that was supposed to happen, i'm not convinced that mp's theory would not have worked. that's a round about way of saying that i've seen approaches like that work, it's just not bb at helm
asciilifeform: almost anyffin, for so long as not in direct opposition to laws of physics, can work..
phf: the strategy is of course fly under the radar, establish significant cash flow, and then use that as a bargaining chip with the local administrataors
phf: i'm talking specifically about "out of reach of reich"
asciilifeform: 'under radar' a++ worked. 'cash flow' not so much.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-05 13:39:21 asciilifeform: raw_avocado: there's an old su joak re subj. 'scientists announce they have discovered a method to make black caviar from petroleum.' 'when can i buy this in the shop?' 'soon; spreading on bread -- already works! but as for eating, not quite yet...'
asciilifeform: the hypothesized demand, not unimportantly, did not materialize.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-12-22 deedbot: weevlos voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: ( rather like 'demand for fg' )
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
asciilifeform: whether a brilliant marketer, e.g. a resurrected p.t.barnum, could've 'solved' this, is impossible to say. all can say, we didn't have such a one
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-16 16:57:08 asciilifeform: ( recall, per orig. charter, 100% of onus for marketing was on mp )
asciilifeform: ( and whether 'could've solved' while preserving 'under radar' is a separate q which won't even touch )
phf: i'd rather not exploring two unrelated projects together, using the failures of one or the other when convienient for argument
phf: pizaro marketing was on mp?
asciilifeform: link re fg strictly
phf: right, i just don't remember
asciilifeform: piz marketing was on BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: he made an interesting effort in spamology
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101794 An anonymous imageboard occasionally receives spam advertising and containing illegal pornography, usually hosted from a server with a domain name and whatnot. I firmly believe federal agents be to blame, in all or most cases. I'm supposed to believe weaponized data isn't used as a blunt weapon to attack websites in an attempt to bring them down or have their operator
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 18:56:45 phf: i mean mp wasn't the only one constructing delusions, somebody (i forgot who) had the "fbi at the door" running story, asciilifeform claimed every network disruption was done by feds (*i'm exagerating for comedic effect)
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: see also.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-09-01 18:40:27 asciilifeform: meanwhile, apropos of nuffin, a lulzy oldie ('14) re who runs most (or all) of the world's remaining usenet isps.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101824 << yep, I was around long enough ago to hear this, and am on the record in dissent
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 19:23:42 phf: so the republic, the way i saw it, was not supposed to be to mp's financial benefit in the short term, nor was it going to be funded by him.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2019-05-17 trinque: republic is scant of profit centers
signpost: in that this approach did not yield him his stated aims, "could haves" aside.
signpost: doesn't mean he's the bad man; means "that was a neat art project, and no thanks I'm full"
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101825 << 100% agree. just these being a civilization require a CHOAM.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 19:24:47 phf: it was a forum, where by following certain principles that we establish for ourselves we'll be able to solve that framing problem that you brought up
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101827 << "I'm going to spray you boys at a brick wall and see what comes out the other side"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 19:31:13 phf: acquire as much btc as you possibly can by any means possible, e.g. sell all your assets and invest them into btc, get a bunch of fiat debt and buy btc, if you have nothing to sell and you can't take on debt, then spend most of your paycheck (i believe one of the articles said %90 or whatever) on btc for some period
signpost: this is traditional, I realize.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101834 << perhaps I need some help seeing why this was much easier for me in meatspace than within the parameters set by the guy
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 19:43:02 phf: now what your business actually is is sort of your business. some of it was emergent from the needs of the republic (e.g. deedbot), some of it was suggested by mp. you're basically doing a full startup, with the above requirements and realities in mind
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-11 19:44:42 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-11#1101802 << from asciilifeform's pov, this was 'beginning of end'
signpost: which I'll probably irritate you by rendering as "why aren't you talking to anyone?" but "not to them!!11!"
phf: i don't think the plan was a hazing ritual, hard to say which things about the man were true and which weren't, but i'm pretty sure the plan is basically the same thing he did himself
signpost: anyway I'm fine to stop talking of MP as the punching bag. it's the definition of this on an ongoing basis that's interesting.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-05 00:21:26 signpost: phf: what of the idea that "god" was this superlative man we could stop crying and carry on writing about?
signpost: the idea that we didn't apply the plan correctly is even worthwhile. I'm probably going to dump a silly amount of cash into BTC, cash I got more recently than the last bull run.
signpost agrees there would be much of MP in such an archetypical great man. maybe we update the code a bit, make sure the next one has one of the bitches delegated to remind "remember, you are mortal"
signpost: and who else am I going to give an ulcer about what it meant if not you gents.
phf: i don't actually think that the plan was mp's sole invention, not in a sense that somebody else did it, but that it was self evident from the way the republic was, and the written form was a formalization (or you could say a clarification for everyone who didn't get it by then)
signpost: if it's not solely his, good, I'm not hitting the punching bag. I don't think being the old dragon works well for the problems I care about.
phf: and here's another point, the goal was individual sovereignty, rather then fast cars through hodl. that's kind of like at the core of the whole project. tmsr was supposed to facilitate this sovereignty and provide the forum for the sovereigs
signpost: maybe BTC continues the parabolic run. if so we'll all be astonishingly rich.
signpost: I drive a $16k truck, and when BTC is $300k per coin, I will still drive that truck.
signpost: aren't we describing the same project?
phf: i'm having doubts :)
signpost: hard to do this seriously when "fast cars through hodl" is what you've got of what I've said.
signpost: I can grunt that I find individual sovereignty of the kind espoused in tmsr solipsistic.
signpost: and then we're just trading barbs.
phf: signpost: i'm trying to establish if we're even on the same page as to what tmsr was, rather than if it was a good thing or not
phf: also fast cars through hodl was not a comment on anything you said, and fuck you
phf: i think it's hard to formulate these thoughts as it is to also have to engage in pointless confrontational sparing over every word
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-05-05 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-05-2015#1121404 << ftr he's readiong between the lines correctly.
signpost: this was/is my model of what we were doing.
signpost: it's pretty strange that when talking to you, I take your words as true representations of what you believe.
signpost: and this leads straight to riling you up.
phf: signpost: is there anything connecting fast cars through hodl to anything you said? like at all
signpost: if you're making a soliloquy instead my mistake.
signpost: I was remarking earlier to my wife that I don't think I have ever had so many mangled packets back and forth with anyone else.
signpost: it's truly bizarre.
signpost: at any rate, mp seems to have confirmed my interpretation of tmsr there. it was at least the goal with which I was aligned.
phf: i frankly don't know anymore what this conversation is about. because i was answering the question "how does piz makes sense", which was sort of dropped. instead we opened up a bunch of new threads.
signpost: you proposed something that tmsr was about, and I provided you a response pertinent to that notion.
mats: this is the nicest ten hour argument i've ever seen
signpost: is it that you cannot imagine that the two threads are connected, or that you don't think me able to connect them, or what?
signpost: all of those would be fine things to say explicitly.
signpost: mats: what, I don't even dislike the guy.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2015-05-05#1121599 << just to put the more relevant line in this log.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-05-05 mircea_popescu: im not making a different country. i'm making THESE countries. let the reds make "their own country", on fucking mars preferably.
signpost: hear fucking hear to this ^