adlai: yet somehow, stereotype is that brass piss off neighbors, and piano is the polite instrument.
verisimilitude: Say, adlai, have we discussed tabular programming yet?
adlai: you and I have not.
verisimilitude: Shall we?
adlai: "do not ask to ask [to talk]" ...
verisimilitude: Read this: http://verisimilitudes.net/2022-01-31
adlai: need I read four thousand lines of roman numerals to understand your question?
verisimilitude: That's probably unnecessary.
verisimilitude: Feel free to close the little arrow and again collapse that segment.
adlai: why have you included the entire table in the article, instead of only the start, end, and perhaps a few interesting bits, if the specific example of roman numerals is relevant?
adlai: the collapsing interface does not appear in the browser I'm using right now (w3m)
verisimilitude: Is lynx available?
adlai: it's further away than skipping to the end of the table and reading onwards from there :)
verisimilitude: Well, consider reading this instead: gopher://verisimilitudes.net/12022-01-31
adlai has had similar complaints about many books that when discussing e.g. powers of two, waste entire lines of printed text on naming dozens of numbers in the series, before finally including something along the lines of "listing these is a waste of space, what the authors actually wanted to say was..."
verisimilitude: It will read much better over Gopher adlai, trust me.
adlai: I don't have a dedicated gopher browser on this machine, although I did find gopher apps for the smartphone.
verisimilitude: That's why I mentioned lynx.
adlai: aha
verisimilitude: Hell, I can show you how to pipe the output of netcat into less, even; it's that simple.
verisimilitude: printf '2022-01-31.read\r\n' | netcat verisimilitudes.net 70 | less
verisimilitude: My writing is immaculate.
adlai typically chats here with w3m browser open to logs.nosuchlabs.com available; opening port 80 with http browser does not involve starting new terminals.
verisimilitude: It won't look as good, know.
verisimilitude: My Gopher hole is optimized for this; my website isn't.
adlai: fwiw, I find your code sample a better explanation than the prose article, if only because I'm more comfortable reading the shorter amount of code in meticulous detail, than skimming over the prose and then claiming to have read it. [pun unavoidable, I guess?]
verisimilitude: The article is infinitely more valuable.
adlai: so, do you have a specific question about this programming style?
adlai: I agree with you that it's superior when the problem space can be factored apart like this.
verisimilitude: I don't have a particular question, no.
adlai: however, roman numerals are only one example; you even mention in the paragraph before the monstrous listing, that the problem space is tiny.
verisimilitude: I've ways to apply this style to language problems, adlai.
verisimilitude: The composition rules allow one to extend them unto infinity.
verisimilitude: Proving correctness and equivalency are also trivial under this model.
verisimilitude: I just like it, adlai.
adlai: what do you mean by the confession in the comment at the end of the source code?
adlai: i.e. why do you say that code falls short of your [unspecified!] standards
adlai may have not read another post where you outline these standards
verisimilitude: Lisp dissatisfies me.
verisimilitude: The Lisp will eventually rot; the article won't.
adlai: why do you insist on writing ANSI Common Lisp then, instead of choosing a compiler and operating system, and targeting those?
verisimilitude: They're worse.
adlai: ANSI Common Lisp does not rot, it simply turns into fossilized prions.
verisimilitude: It falls short of the beauty in my mind.
verisimilitude: Even Ada does, for this.
adlai: what examples do you have of syntax that does meet your standards?
verisimilitude: I loathe syntax.
adlai: you seem happy enough spewing eigth-bit-clean grammatically immaculate English, though!
verisimilitude: A human language is different.
verisimilitude: Those are things of beauty; meanwhile, the ``programming language'' shouldn't exist.
adlai: still, you must have some notation for describing the territory, even if you reflexively write "map not territory" like jew writing "by the grace of the lord"
verisimilitude: Well, for this, I had the tables outlined and I used + to mean concatenation.
adlai: in case you are unfamiliar, "by the grace of the lord" is the jewish equivalent of "god bless america", a sort of linguistic tic that gets included into every written document.
verisimilitude: My goal is a high-level programming tool, as mine MMC is a low-level programming tool.
verisimilitude: The current MMC implementations define a character set from which to write the names, but that's unnecessary; with better fundamentals, I may have machine addresses and values labelled with arbitrary drawings.
adlai: most usually only include a three-letter acronym, pronounced "basad"; one day when I was instructing soldiers, dude who probably was getting his hand warmed up before starting to answer questions, turns in exam paper with an actual macroexpansion written out by hand, "besiyua d' naale venatsliyakh"
adlai considers this roughly equivalent to the CollegeBoard SAT's computational rule, "you get 200 points for signing your name"
adlai: arbitrary drawings are nonlinear and multidimensional; the marked advantage of programming languages is that they are typically linear monodimensional.
adlai: e.g., you can read a common lisp program aloud, without wondering whether you should begin reading in some curve other than dictionary order of character locations.
adlai: perhaps my next target should be something related to graphics; I do recall one of asciilifeform's first comments when I launched my site, and possibly the only comment, was "get camera, post pictures, instead of drinking and writing text"
verisimilitude: I've solutions to these and other problems.
verisimilitude: Tell me thy website's URL again.
adlai: not quite an entire URL, although 80.244.243.194:7421 oughtta speak HTTP
adlai: note that this is quite explicitly not the kind of thing some people expect when they deconstruct "blog", or "website".
adlai: apparently some folks have an activation barrier similar to "must be worth killing trees to print" when considering material for publication, even if only text at the WWW.
verisimilitude: Oh, to be able to read and natively understand all of the Latin therein, and not merely most of it.
adlai: may I inquire why you requested /css/style.css twice in succession?
verisimilitude: I didn't.
verisimilitude: Firefox may have.
adlai: s/you/$0r intermediaries/, I guess.
adlai: modern web browsers are also intermediaries, often quite active.
adlai: e.g., for a while (and possibly even so today), google chrome with default settings performed behavioral analysis on which links people clicked, and prefetched pages before the human clicked links.
adlai: this is doubly strange: your connection requested the stylesheet twice; and my server did not return an unchanged status, barfed the entire thing again.
adlai: it does occasionally return unchanged status, instead of barfing. I guess I'd have to entomologise the HTTP garbage more deeply than I care to do right now, to understand this behavior.
adlai: aaanyway, there is an RSS, although it's not linked anywhere in the HTML pages; however, I don't link you to it because it is incredibly verbose, and I'm uncertain what entry point URL has reasonable replies indefinitely.
adlai: I guess if you visit /posts/documentation-meta-tag.html you can glance at the tag soup and months to see if there are new posts, and spider along at your own whims from there.
verisimilitude: I notice in my logs that sometimes requests are made twice.
adlai: the ordering of the months and tags is recomputed pseudorandomly each time I rebuild the static site, which is pretty much only when I publish a new post.
adlai: I'm quite hesitant to set bikeshedding of the static site generator and HTTP server as my next target, yet perhaps it's a good one for returning to programming.
adlai: aaanyway, this has been almost two hours of chitchat, and I'm wasting sunlight.
verisimilitude: ``never tell anyone you are richer than they thought you were before. welcome to the new elite, Isaac! by the way in jew that means "will cry"''
verisimilitude: This amused me.
adlai: it's an extreme example of creative misinterpretation; the latin alphabet does not express correctly the modern hebrew pronounciation that makes it technically correct.
adlai: the idiomatic translation of that name is "will laugh".
adlai: (most likely, the biblically correct one, too; what can I say, if a post is tagged 'venom', it probably has linguistic landmines!)
verisimilitude: http://adlai.uncommon-lisp.org:7421/posts/Popescu-for-Plebesci.html This is funny, but I question why it was written.
verisimilitude: I don't yet know enough Latin to fully translate it.
adlai: "Cassel's" is the name of a dictionary that I'd recently purchased, and was recommended frequently when I studied Latin in school.
adlai: why that was written is a separate question from why it was published.
adlai: consider the fact that it's a post opening with a log quote from a guy who frequently interjected romance languages as though the entire audience, if not polyglots, at least had random access to the contents of his own mind.
adlai: so your question "why it was written", is similar to asking an audience member at some seminar, "why did you leave your nigh-illegible notes where anyone else could read them?"
adlai: instead of... dunno, what do you expect to be the fate of unfinished garbage? everything can't get shredded, that's too expensive.
adlai: at the time, I was experimenting with the new static site generator, and was finding my way around a new copy of the dictionary, to dust off a language I had neither read nor written in years.
adlai: this is not a funny answer, and I question why I'm still writing it here!
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1094138 << would like to know if phf has made sauce dump of orig. logotron (or ever will)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 22:52:42 asciilifeform: was quite fond of phf's logotron, to this day not copied all the pheatures (e.g. backlinkage)
cdd is not sure if this logotron is the one, thought it was written in cl
cdd: sigs not phf's
cdd: I'd be interested in an advanced search. It's bothering me that I can't search "all posts by mircea_popescu in between x and y addressed to asciilifeform containing 'logotron'"
cdd: it's easy for asci to "fit in head" the entirety of every conversation and date, but for newb the endless trawl is foreboding to say the least
cdd: also, wdym by 'backlinkage?'
cdd: also, wondering if anyone has rigged vpatch for emacs to live-patch a repl?
cdd: would be possible to have 100% uptime on lisp-based daemons
cdd: (not counting outages)
verisimilitude: What?
verisimilitude: Just use Slime.
cdd: ye ^^
cdd: but rig vpatch for slime
cdd: so can just read, then apply straight to running proggy
cdd: no downtime
cdd: asking if been done before, not for someone to do
cdd: would like to also make it clear that just making patches then loading w/ slime is also possible, but would be nice to automate
cdd: s/slime/slime manually/
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096886 << mno, that one's asciilifeform's logotron
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 04:05:30 cdd: is not sure if this logotron is the one, thought it was written in cl
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 04:03:24 cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1094138 << would like to know if phf has made sauce dump of orig. logotron (or ever will)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 04:25:53 cdd: asking if been done before, not for someone to do
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096888 << no support for date ranges in search box atm. you can do e.g. f:speaker whatevertext tho
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 04:09:31 cdd: I'd be interested in an advanced search. It's bothering me that I can't search "all posts by mircea_popescu in between x and y addressed to asciilifeform containing 'logotron'"
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $41325.38
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 15 nodes...
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.060s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=732542
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
watchglass: 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.094s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=732542
watchglass: 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.110s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=732542 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.214s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
watchglass: 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.309s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
watchglass: 82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.276s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
watchglass: 94.176.238.102:8333 : (2ppf.s.time4vps.cloud) Alive: (0.397s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732216
watchglass: 75.106.222.93:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.611s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
watchglass: 103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.536s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=466228 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-18#1096757 << whether or not 'ai-complete', in fact not advanced substantially in last half century.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-18 23:41:50 verisimilitude: Translation isn't AI-complete.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-06-21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: google translator is pretty much same 1970s lultron as produced 'the vodka is tasty but the meat -- rotten' from 'spirit is willing but flesh is weak', famously
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-18#1096730 << consider writing a pestron.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-18 23:19:45 adlai: has been pondering what are good targets for the next programming binge
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-18#1096768 << well, >= human, but yes
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-18 23:46:51 verisimilitude: The concept of AI-complete refers to something that seemingly requires a complete human intelligence to properly work.
asciilifeform: ( observe that most humans are not particularly good at it fwiw )
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096884 << no, and i won't without a sufficient reason. if it wasn't obvious the confluence of "anyone can write a logotron" and "fuck you phf give use your code" of the mid/late tmsr made me reconsider. the model proposed by the republic was explicitly not open-source, that is it wasn't just about releasing the code for the sake of releasing it, it was about building shared
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 04:03:24 cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1094138 << would like to know if phf has made sauce dump of orig. logotron (or ever will)
phf: tooling among lords. when the concept of lordship became meaningless, so did the incentive to participate.
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096888 << just write it then? a lowest end of effort that's less than 3 hours of work time. log format is standard, i don't know what asciilifeform is dumping it as, but back in my day i made sure it was kako's id;timestamp;nick;message. less than an hour of work to load it into sqlite, then your hypothetical query becomes a trivial sql statement
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 04:09:31 cdd: I'd be interested in an advanced search. It's bothering me that I can't search "all posts by mircea_popescu in between x and y addressed to asciilifeform containing 'logotron'"
asciilifeform: phf: somehow, some folx still participating! tho no lords, no 1e3year-reich, etc.
phf: asciilifeform: can't speak for other folks, i'm speaking for myself. this was the way of the republic, one speaks for himself :p
asciilifeform won't pressure phf or anyone else who dun feel like publishing $item; but will note that life moar interesting when post src, folx can experiment, fix
phf: asciilifeform: vtools is public, some work was done on it under mp's whip, but smh still no "smart rename"
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096941 << asciilifeform's logotron internally sqlistic , and also shits phf-formatted export
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 11:37:22 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096888 << just write it then? a lowest end of effort that's less than 3 hours of work time. log format is standard, i don't know what asciilifeform is dumping it as, but back in my day i made sure it was kako's id;timestamp;nick;message. less than an hour of work to load it into sqlite, then your hypothetical query becomes a trivial sql statement
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-27 11:13:43 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089440 << there's a raw-log knob, which yields up to 500 ln, e.g.
asciilifeform: phf: imho 'smart rename' thing was ill-conceived, would break compat. w/ hand-cranked patch -p0 < foo.patch
phf: asciilifeform: sure but that's not why it wasn't implemented
asciilifeform: phf: i dun recall who if anyone attempted to implement that one
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096938 << imho it was a nifty item, and good example of efficient cl, sumthing of which not many posted publicly. but, again, won't make 'moralistic' wank outta it, if author not feels it to be publication-worthy, or not has time/inclination to answer q's re mechanisms, or whatever reason, then not post.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 11:28:49 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096884 << no, and i won't without a sufficient reason. if it wasn't obvious the confluence of "anyone can write a logotron" and "fuck you phf give use your code" of the mid/late tmsr made me reconsider. the model proposed by the republic was explicitly not open-source, that is it wasn't just about releasing the code for the sake of releasing it, it was about building shared
phf: in general i think that early tmsr provided an alternative incentive structure, but it's possible i was the only one who thought that way. it was in my mind somewhat equivalent to greek (and other pre-modern) gift giving system. it's called a gift, but it is otherwise a very mercantile exchange. x brought a logotron, so that y brings a deedbot, so that z brings ... and all is accounted, without necessarily keeping an explicit ledger.
asciilifeform: phf: not so diff. from how folx bring food to a party, aha
signpost: yep, exactly that.
asciilifeform: atm we have a much smaller but in fact rather similar party. signpost brought deedbot , asciilifeform -- rack, dulapnet, pest spec, various trbisms; thimbronion -- blatta; billymg -- noad walker; shinohai -- mirrors; various other folx -- useful commentary (e.g. punkman returned briefly and participated in pest spec hammering) ; etc
asciilifeform: no one brought '1000yr reich' but asciilifeform, speaking only for self, dun miss it
asciilifeform: signpost has buncha interesting things in the pipeline; possib. other folx also
asciilifeform if left anyone out of ^ list -- not intentionally
asciilifeform: simply example.
signpost: re: reich, yep. screeching that "if we stopped eating, v-tronic distro (or whatever else) would come more quickly" adds 0.
phf: asciilifeform: imho a body without the head. and i'm not talking about mp, in fact i think mp attempted to usurp the head, that was never the leas briefly there, which was, in my mind, collective and organic decision process by the lordship.
asciilifeform: 'learn to eat tree bark! compute with branches and moss!' lol
asciilifeform: phf: imho dragon w/ n heads, and worx better than one'd expect
signpost: phf: brief blip of the most solidarity I've ever seen directly.
phf: open sores communiti? :>
asciilifeform: phf: lol
asciilifeform: moar of jazz band.
asciilifeform: phf: observe that 'n heads' is explicitly part of e.g. pest ideology.
phf: oh please
phf: pest ideology was already flushed out in the early tmsr days, stems directly from the idea of sovereignty and lordship.
asciilifeform: phf: rather diff. notion of sovereignty. ( what means 'lord' where there are no peons? )
asciilifeform: imho that's large part of what made mp's scheme so laffable -- hey, we're lords!11 the slaves -- forthcoming any day nao!1
signpost: phf: major difference would be the idea that there's a center, which was nominally deedbot, but was factually mp.
phf: see i had time to process tmsr, being away and all, can separate the wheat from the chaff. before mp turned into a kako style boogeyman, had plenty of great ideas
signpost: but yes, entirely compatible with the actual definition of a peerage.
asciilifeform ftr can't think of even 1 technical idea the fella had (rather than lifted) that wasn't an unmitigated disaster.
signpost: were one to pest-tronically have the rest of a traditional hierarchy, there'd be a hierarchy of networks with formalized ways of passing messages up and down between them.
asciilifeform: signpost: observe that the protocol allows for any topology you like (even 'star'). simply doesn't trap anyone in it.
phf: signpost: i think that's a subversion, deedot was there to keep wot, was a central point of failure as a side effect of implementation, and ended up being exploited as a single point of control
signpost: indeed
signpost: to both points
phf: asciilifeform: i like how my whole rant is about "needs more than just technical", and your criticism is of mp's technical ideas.
signpost recalls a trilema post regarding the benefits of traditional hierarchial societies, that even the common man had a much better chance of having his problems heard and addressed than modern democracy.
asciilifeform: phf: not about to disagree w/ 'needs moar than technical'. asciilifeform neither could nor inclined to try to supply mp-style ideological programme, beyond what already supplies informally in the logs. imho was largely empty effort even when mp, 'qualified specialist', if you like, was doing it.
signpost: wasn't his, in the sense that history belongs to no man, but the presentation of that idea changed my mind on the spot.
phf: this is a trope at this point, any time we go about discussing the olden tmsr ways it devolves into mp bad. i think it makes this kinds of conversations entirely unproductive
signpost: phf: perhaps also say at length what was good.
phf: signpost: that's where we were, couple of lines above, before the conversation turned into mp bad derailment.
signpost: so re-rail!
signpost threatens to trigger phf with novice discussion of the null set!
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform ftr interested in what phf has re subj, will listen
phf: well, i now i have the pulpit, but i don't have any answers :D
asciilifeform: phf: questions ok too, lol
asciilifeform ftr holds that mp boxed himself into ideological corner; could've quite easily amped the pace of construction work over9000x but lolno.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 11:55:07 signpost: re: reich, yep. screeching that "if we stopped eating, v-tronic distro (or whatever else) would come more quickly" adds 0.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-18 11:28:20 asciilifeform: ... problem is, is very difficult to increase the amt of useful work with coin (aside from, hypothetically, jailbreaking ~people~, ideally 2-3 people. but piggy -- or 'sandwich-adjusted' exchrate -- would have to be ~10x bigger to make this plausible)
asciilifeform: ( and this wasn't the only such corner. fuhrers as a class have difficult time with concept of admitting error and backtracking, 'erodes auctoritas')
phf: my point is that tmsr provided a structure, to which all were contributors, mp among them, and the technical both came from this structure and was incentivised by it. i'm not opposed to the format of "computer club", hence writing peh or whatever, but i think we could at least agree that the structure that tmsr provided, acknowledging both the larp and the cringe, went well beyond "computer club"
signpost: not to shotgun links, but http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=from%3Asignpost+republic&chan=asciilifeform
signpost: I agree 100%.
signpost: it was first an ideologically distinct place to which one could defect, rebuild himself.
signpost: this was liberating, and is not diminished at all by the failure of the social experiment.
phf: asciilifeform: i have zero interest in this line of conversation, it smells too much of kakobreka style butthurt. how many ways is there to say "mp bad". this is also reminiscent of the previous horses conversations "riding horses is fun" "but what about all the douchebags??"
asciilifeform: phf: imho 'men's club' with rough agreement on ideology is in fact less 'cringe' than pretense at 'revolutionary movement' with ~0 resources. but this may be 'religious' q.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
asciilifeform: phf: perhaps worth expanding. imho wasn't problem with the man, but moar with the role per se
signpost: phf: not sure why you're averse to critique of the social experiment though, which is necessary to iterate.
asciilifeform: and, concretely, with the structure.
signpost: mp was certainly *not* the prime source of the thing's failure. thing had insufficient resources. that he could've poured in didn't obligate him to do so.
signpost: and if we weren't rich quick enough, fine to pick up the ball and go home.
signpost: there are elements of failure in him, and everyone else too.
phf: signpost: because there's therapy for that :} walking in the wood, mumbling to yourself "that motherfucker".
asciilifeform: there were elements of 'swimming in moolah dissolves one's brain' present, also, but may be orthogonal to this thrd
phf: signpost: like you just told me to rerail, and in the void was asciilifeform's opportunity to continue the "mp bad" thread, it's still there. that line above ^
asciilifeform: phf: speaking from 'medical' rather than 'moral' pov. imho is problem with class , rather than that 1 d00d in particular.
signpost: phf: recall asciilifeform *had* business with the guy.
signpost: but if he's wrong, give him a good thump with a line quote, say.
asciilifeform: rather extensive , and not all of it in #t
asciilifeform just about 'lived with' the fella, for rather long time, to the extent such thing possible via correspondence.
signpost: the thing about being away is that you don't just move your model of phf forward through states, but models of the others too.
phf: signpost: elaborate on that last sentence please
asciilifeform got 'so sorry yer best phriend is dead' pile of 'fan mail' from over9000 fuckknowswhoms
signpost: phf: just that we've all done our processing of the thing, but may not know where the other ended up on it.
signpost has been through successive business failures, for example, before the one that worked.
signpost: everyone comes away with amplified immune systems which say something about the failure, and something about oneself
phf: then i will repeat myself for the record http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097008 :>
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 12:26:37 phf: asciilifeform: i have zero interest in this line of conversation, it smells too much of kakobreka style butthurt. how many ways is there to say "mp bad". this is also reminiscent of the previous horses conversations "riding horses is fun" "but what about all the douchebags??"
phf: i'm not even opposed to "analyzing the structure", but i find the discussion of "how much man drank" both uninteresting, because self evident in some cases and ought to be kept to oneself in other, and also increadibly declasse :>
asciilifeform broadly agrees w/ phf's comment re structure -- some folx require a #t-style 'movement' to stay in motion. but must note that that type of structure comes with substantial costs. esp. if the motivatory promises are thin air and the 'great victories' imaginary.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-02-04 13:46:08 asciilifeform: mp was talented mountebank, a la barnum, and in #t maintained an addictive, to many folx, atmosphere of 'движуха' (untranslatable, but roughly 'errything in motion!!', 'happening!')
asciilifeform: phf: very difficult to discuss 'the structure' without mentioning its author.
asciilifeform: 'из песни слова не выкинешь'
phf: asciilifeform: no, actually quite easy, can for example focus on things man did well, without mentioning how he's a fuhrer every few minutes, on the off chance somebody might get the wrong idea that you at any point liked the fellah
signpost: phf: your habit of insisting that whatever you've concluded is evident and frustration that others are, as it appears by the way you communicate, willfully denying what's obvious, is perhaps not the only model of what's happening here.
signpost: heh, and then you said! ok
asciilifeform: fwiw liked him enuff to spend ~7y trying to talk sense into him, lol. but orthogonal.
signpost: sure, I thought he was the greatest man I'd ever encountered, at a certain point, and fully admit.
signpost: and now will swear with the same conviction that allowing any man that is a failure in *myself* first.
signpost: and inviting the other guy to doom.
signpost gotta bbl
phf: signpost: there's a russian saying, "of dead you speak well, or not at all" from latin original http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-11#1094990 asciilifeform is certainly familiar with it, so i assume only a strong conviction will allow him to violate it. it still /feels iffy/ to not follow it, or even participate in the instances of its violation. there are rules, people, we live in society! :>
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-11 10:59:31 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-10#1094941 << i had a sepsis. as far as mp and best ambulance, de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est
asciilifeform: phf: outta curiosity, historical figures exempt from 'speak well' ?
asciilifeform: let's treat him as historical figure, then
asciilifeform not from pov 'grr, motherfucker, haet' but 'fella had serious bugs in his ideological coad'
asciilifeform: picture a 17th c. pirate captain. initially a++ crew, riding on wave of enthusiasm, seal cracks, keep reddi^H^H^H^Hocean outta the boat, over9000 morale. but then instead of pirating, asks crew to please regularly sit on land and day job (or 'find how to get rich').
phf: asciilifeform: i don't agree with this analogy
asciilifeform: or if you prefer, picture an alt- lenin, who thought that his crew oughta 'find how get rich' individually.
asciilifeform: phf: asciilifeform fully expects that phf would disagree with any historical analogy offered; because afaik there was no historical parallel for this kinda lunacy. (or if there were, it did not make it even to written record)
phf: asciilifeform: no, i disagree because it's a pointed analogy, that doesn't correspond to what actually happened to the tmsr as a whole, rather then a certain aspect of your relationship with the man
asciilifeform: phf: if you can spare the cycles, let's have your pov re 'as whole' then
asciilifeform admits surprise that phf disagrees w/ offered summary, in light of phf having in fact been 1st casualty of the given ideological bug
asciilifeform: what, in phf's pov, sank tmsr ? (which, worth to recall, sank yr+ before mp did)
asciilifeform: ( from asciilifeform's pov -- ~2y )
asciilifeform: if not 3.
phf: asciilifeform: recall, that i stepped down, /before/ i got deplatformed
asciilifeform: phf: didn't stop from 'burned in effigy', lol (tho not with half the enthusiasm asciilifeform was 'burned')
phf: asciilifeform: and? burned in effigy was inevitable outcome of stepping down, that's why nobody else did it explicitly, because knew of fallout
phf: the standard strategy was to just slowly and gradually disappear into the aether
asciilifeform: phf: recall how there was a pair of young fellas (jfw & dorion) who were still there at 'lights out', thought could 'carry whole thing'
phf: or else just run the course, and end up in effigy anyway
asciilifeform: for all asciilifeform knows, they're still walking the globe, showing those powerpoints w/ mp's head and citations
asciilifeform: d00dz bought the snsa boneyard in entirety. and, suspect, will never run out.
adlai: Mircea appears to have been remarkably similar to Wolf Larsen, the first captain and eponymous foil of Jack London's novel, "The Sea-Wolf"; both led their risky enterprises promising great reward, and both met their end in the pacific ocean.
asciilifeform: signed on, if you will, to play role of dks, w/out the pension
asciilifeform: adlai: i've not read 'sea wolf'; did larsen send his crew to land to do scutwork for wages ?
adlai: no, although he almost certainly kills a few insubordinates with his own hands even before they begin mutinies.
asciilifeform: eh, that's 'feature, not bug'
asciilifeform: historically
adlai: it's an interesting novel, and does not spell out each event in explicit detail. some things are left to the reader's imagination.
adlai: contrast with e.g. "Call of the Wild", which focuses mostly on the dog's point of view, although is still technically 3rd person omniscient narration.
adlai: otoh, 'sea wolf' basically gives you one man's first-person perspective, and he starts the novel clueless about pretty much everything other than being a literary gentleman
adlai: so there are detailed descriptions of what he witnesses, yet great holes in the plot where he's not present.
asciilifeform not read, cannot comment
phf: asciilifeform: tmsr started as a republic, where eventually one person usurped the power, and in this case the power was given freely and gradually. some elements of "mp's crew" were of course there from the beginning, but i believe i used the phrase "first among equal" sometime early in tmsr days (for some reason i'm failing to find it in the logs, i probably used other form)
adlai: my guess is that Jack London's dog novels are more popular today for the same reason that Aesop didn't get killed for being rude.
adlai: Sea Wolf includes long passages about how the immortal soul is a useless meme, all that matters in life is not sleeping on an empty stomach, etc.
asciilifeform: phf: near as can tell, from the very point where started to use term 'republic', already behaved analogously to caesar's rome, rather than republic's
phf: asciilifeform: your oft repeated "work for wages" is nonsense. the whole idea of lordship implied that we come as equals, being able to provide our own basic necessities, having our own lives squared away.
phf: in my opinion, what actually happened is that when mp started to demanding work (specific following a schedule in your case), and the value of participation started to disappear, is when the whole "buuut i have to do real work" started appearing as an excuse. or if it not an excuse then maybe a cold headed analysis of alegience: at the end of the day it's the day work that was paying for food, etc.
asciilifeform: phf: from asciilifeform's pov, the notion of 'lord' without subordinates and resource base is fundamentally thin wordplay
phf: asciilifeform: yeah, so we were there on false pretence. the only lord was mp, lol
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: demand work ? a-ok, give out some lands & serfs, like peter 1
phf: fwiw i didn't necessarily feel a strong disconnect between my larp title and my life, in that i live off dividents rather than salary. saw it as opportunity and inspiration to /git gut/ as the kids say
asciilifeform: a++. iirc signpost also not needs any longer salary.
phf: which i kind of thought was the point
adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096933 << my main hesitation for this target is that it's a program that interacts with the world, a tool and a service; whereas most other targets I've been considering are closer to the kind of pure functions that are closer to button on calculator than PTT on radio.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 09:53:00 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-18#1096730 << consider writing a pestron.
asciilifeform: phf: so maybe for you, no such disjunction
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-11#1094990 ``Down from deaths/corpses nothing, unless good is to be said.''
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-11 10:59:31 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-10#1094941 << i had a sepsis. as far as mp and best ambulance, de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est
verisimilitude: I've not yet learned conjugations such as DICENDVM yet.
asciilifeform: iirc at the time of tmsr phf was still working for wage, tho
asciilifeform: adlai: can't comment re which 'pure function' you might like to write. ( asciilifeform dun need any written.. )
phf: asciilifeform: nope, it's been the same project since about the early tmsr days. certainly predates any of my serious tmsr obligations. i still have to work, i mean, in practical terms can probably give away the operations to hired guns, which is what is slowly happening, but i don't particularly feel inclined to
asciilifeform: still a++
asciilifeform: lightyears ahead of e.g. asciilifeform
asciilifeform: iirc e.g. thimbronion in similar weight class to phf's
adlai: asciilifeform: one possibility was implementations of the mathematical concepts I've studied independently in the past year; e.g., it's nice to run my eyes along topology texts, although implementing a predicate that determines equivalence in sufficiently simple cases could demonstrate that I actually learned something.
asciilifeform: adlai: there's nuffin wrong with studying. go, study
adlai: there's plenty wrong with reading and deluding myself that mathematics is a spectator sport.
adlai: if reading for entertainment, fine, excellent.
asciilifeform: so dun spectate. participate.
asciilifeform could suggest how, and where, but 0 chance adlai will listen, not clear that he's looking for a marching order
asciilifeform: that's the thing, upstack, asciilifeform aint 'trying to mp', has 0 interest in trying to pressure the apathetic, folx who have a fire still burning in'em req no such pressure
asciilifeform: e.g. jonsykkel . shows up, coupla wks later brings a working pestron.
asciilifeform: no one pressured.
asciilifeform: no one threatened to burn him in effigy, or 'unlord'
asciilifeform: no one ordered him.
asciilifeform: neither even was tuned in, in mp era.
asciilifeform: afaik.
asciilifeform: any cosmography re 'structures' gotta be able to explain how this is possible.
asciilifeform: what kind of structure are the listed folx part of ?
adlai: those folks probably ain't garrulous talkers who sit around yakking about what's in progress!
asciilifeform: is it reddit ? cuz dunthinkso.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 11:57:43 phf: open sores communiti? :>
phf: asciilifeform: perhaps "any cosmography re 'not reddit' gotta be able to explain why so"
phf: because cat-v 9front people are also 9front, with all kinds of code and output, and such. will produce /excellent 9front/
adlai does not subscribe to cosmography where every person is agent of some structure, ranging from 'redditor subscribe to /r/aves etc' to 'nsa provocateur', with nobody who simply lives within modern nation-state and occasionally encounters social media the same way you might encounter a leftover newspaper abandoned on a train bench.
asciilifeform: and local jazz band, perhaps also excellent jazz
asciilifeform: (and i suppose reddit produces 'excellent reddit', whatever that means)
phf: well, right, that's called avocation. can also keep bees
verisimilitude: Well, ``excellent Reddit'' would be whatever they do that allows me to laugh at them.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform aint 'at war' with the catv people. simply regards their work as uninteresting and morose. (and, if they were tuned in, would likely think similarly of asciilifeform's)
asciilifeform: asciilifeform -- believer in freedom of association, amplified by wotronics and assoc. work. it dun have the 'sex appeal' of 'revolutionary movements', no. but imho 'movements' w/out resources are an abjectly masturbatory activity.
phf: asciilifeform: tmsr was not a revolutionary movement. was at the core novel way to structure relationships. or some kind of very old way to structure relationships mediated by novel use of technology.
asciilifeform: phf: from that pov, tmsr is still in-biz, then
signpost: mhm, in the sense that twitter populism is not the same as radio-populism.
signpost: elements of former amplified and mediated in novel ways over the tech.
asciilifeform: ditching populism fwiw was not a unique invention of mp's. asciilifeform never took in at all.
adlai: signpost: what do you mean by 'radio-populism' ?
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096416 << was making reference to this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-16 19:07:10 phf: i mean covid, IMHO, was a first case of global mass psychosis mediated by a new form of a reality substrate
asciilifeform for that matter, regarded the canwhores & assoc. idiocy very dimly
phf: signpost: i think giving something a broad label like that strips it of its essential qualities. anything and everything can be a revolutionary movement, basically means nothing
signpost: missing my point; I'm commenting on the medium being essential to the culture that forms on it.
signpost: and I picked a triggering category to illustrate it intentionally.
signpost: adlai: hitler making a speech and projecting it via tv/radio/etc, for example.
signpost: or "fireside addresses" by... fdr I believe.
adlai: so preacher-at-congregation, as opposed to the various forms of democracy theatre so popular these days.
signpost: to give the non-triggering example, the ancients and their culture of literacy. the technology puts limits on who can say what back, where this is heard, by whom shall it be heard...
signpost: *meant to say literature, of letters
asciilifeform: signpost: or, consider, similarly, 1990s usenet
signpost: mhm
asciilifeform: at one time there was an accidental iq filter in place.
asciilifeform: broke, when predators noticed it was there to break, as had no mechanisms to resist.
signpost considered tmsr a project to intentionally design such a system of rules. who can speak when, to whom, how is what's true known.
signpost: one could say "it was a culture" but it's not clear "culture" macroexpands in this manner in everyone's interpreter.
signpost: or if I said "intentional community" those would be the right words and laughably wrong context.
asciilifeform: phf upstack in 'no head' stopped short of noting that asciilifeform presently 'plays role of ayatollah, badly' but would've been fair crit.
signpost: isn't even a crit; it's factual that the context of your work is what ideological anchor is currently present.
asciilifeform: from asciilifeform's pov, continuing exactly what was doing in #t .
asciilifeform: with smaller, moar sober crew
asciilifeform: for whom insufficient ayatollah -- 'how's all this diff. from reddit?!1' -- there's a broad selection of alternative ayatollahs avail., the net is wide
phf: asciilifeform: no disrespect to the lord of this castle, and while in his domain, but as your former equal, i can extend the gratitude over your hospitality, but my here presence does not in itself imply fielty
phf: to wit i come as a guest, not as supplicant
asciilifeform: phf is a welcome guest
asciilifeform: asciilifeform not expects 'fealty' from phf or for that matter others.
phf: and we are discussing what tmsr were, to establish whether or not it still is, or even can be
adlai: fwiw, I do not view asciilifeform as ayatollah, nor as someone building ... neither replacement or continuation of MP's "TMSR" group hallucination.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform moar into kuklachev's supposed method for training cats. 'find trick the cat eagerly desires to perform'
signpost: my point was that the work was authorship of ideology first, the rest upon it.
signpost: not that I consider asciilifeform god-fuhrer who ascended to daddy's chair.
asciilifeform not interested, as noted, in fuhrering, in general
signpost even farted out a few ideological items recently.
verisimilitude: I currently respect asciilifeform as my better in programming matters, but respect and obedience are different.
adlai: superorganisms are not required to self-identify using some proper noun; what's wrong with simply saying, e.g., "the pest spec is a shared product of folks who gave feedback to asciilifeform in the IRC server run for that purpose, among others"
adlai: rather than "TMSR Company Makes Everything"
verisimilitude: Usually, the people in a company are paid.
asciilifeform makes no seekrit of his ideological positions, historical cosmography, etc. but not offers 'plug-in replacement' for mp's
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 13:46:56 asciilifeform: asciilifeform -- believer in freedom of association, amplified by wotronics and assoc. work. it dun have the 'sex appeal' of 'revolutionary movements', no. but imho 'movements' w/out resources are an abjectly masturbatory activity.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-11 13:49:28 asciilifeform: post-medieval 'merchant' nobility was sustainable only in context of expanding resource base. in shrinking/stagnant resource base, the old (hereditary nobility, serfs, etc) system is the stable one. so currently reich activity all with aim to reorg into the latter.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 12:41:06 asciilifeform: mangol: atm there aint a 'free world'. but at one time there were, and lizards existentially terrified that could again be.
signpost: adlai: I disagree entirely, for the same reason we name meatsacks.
signpost: to have what upon which to aggregate something coherent.
verisimilitude: This seems like an egregore.
signpost also agrees that whatever's present, this is premature.
adlai: verisimilitude: the counterexample is specifically a parody of the acronym "ACME", an embodiment of 20th- (late 19th?) century nationalism.
signpost: there were prereqs not in place then, that are still not now. pest's part of it.
signpost has a few mil company store credits to not fuck up in the next few years, and probably another tinycorp to fart out.
verisimilitude: Every slot in which I can fit an egregore is already filled.
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform believes that if tonight he is flattened by piano, the party will go on in recognizably similar spirit on pestnet, won't 'devolve to reddit'
signpost: few mil ain't shit these days.
adlai: signpost: I guess I'm much more hesitant to name superorganisms that do not claim sovereignty; and the most notable lasting effect of MP's writings on my worldview is placing the sovereignty of individuals as fundamental ,and the sovereignty of nations and their ilk as only incidental.
verisimilitude: Many of us are here as outcasts of modern Internet society, or at least I'm, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: adlai: from asciilifeform's pov, 'sovereignty to individual' requires tooling, to make even thinkable escape from mass broadcast idiocy and post-'september' net
phf: adlai: that's reach coming from an israeli
phf: *rich
asciilifeform: phf: iirc he was marooned there, rather than moved ideologically
asciilifeform narrowly escaped this fate
adlai: yep; arguably, I am lazy, and/or cowardly, for not defecting to MP's proverbial "wherever the stripper you met yesterday wants to go for vacation"
verisimilitude: He truly advocated that?
adlai: however, I am definitely not proud of e.g. owing social security payments to Israel's equivalent organisation (here it's called "national insurance")
adlai: nor would I be any prouder if I were, as some have told me to be, receiving disability payments from the same organisation; for what exactly? sadness? drunkenness?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: aint an unfair summery imho of what he advocated. tho moar concretely, 'be young, be disposable, follow sex organs always, live on next to nuffin'
asciilifeform: idolized decerebrated criminal class, for 'being active rather than passive', in a rather early 20th-reminiscent deeply intellectual antiintellectualism
asciilifeform: *summary
adlai: verisimilitude: iirc, this approximate quote is from his wealth preservation plan, that consisted roughly of: 1) buy as many bitcoins as possible, immediately; 2) decide whether to keep your wife, and either way, get your kids in line; 3) move to least shitty non-NATO paradise of your choosing
asciilifeform: ( see also, e.g. 'pencildicks'(tm) )
asciilifeform: adlai: was 'max out credit card, buy btc, run to paraguay' etc
adlai: phf: my point is, that people claimed personal sovereignty, personal divinity, etc, for millenia, before anyone began depersonalising themselves as mouth of sauron, speaker for house, etc
verisimilitude: He reminds me of my grandfather, then, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: ( for extra lulz, if anyone recalls, asciilifeform invented a machine which carries out 'plan for wealth' w/out leaving house -- connect rng to perl script bruteforce of shitoshi's privkeys, and pistol if wrong answer, aimed at yer head. has similar chance of 'working', but mp did not like, not 'manly' flavoured )
adlai: I'm guessing your dig at Israel is due to its human rights violations; I'm not gonna deny those, and honestly if my turn ever gets called to go on trial for war crimes because I served in the military during the occupation of the west bank, I'm not admitting guilt to any war crimes. I was fortunate to never be in a situation where this was even possible.
verisimilitude: That seems like exactly the kind of plan that would have one end up drowned, adlai.
phf: adlai: i generally stand with civilization
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: afaik no one (admitted to) literally carrying out that 'plan'.
verisimilitude: I refer to ``listen to your dick'' talk.
verisimilitude: My grandfather was the same way.
adlai: phf: tbh I dunno how familiar you are with the modern state of Israel; it cushions a remarkably 1st-world, 'enlightened', cusp of civilisation, surrounded by the various apartheid geopolitical mess.
phf: adlai: that is correct :) now reread what i said from the perspective of us agreen that israel is civilization
phf: *agreeing
verisimilitude: That seems like a description of what South Africa was, adlai.
asciilifeform: from asciilifeform's pov, the major problem in il is the 'soft gloves' and hijacking by reich prestige apparatus. if went 'gloves off' could readily civilize entire near east, east india style
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-06-12 asciilifeform: ^ 'altalena affair' resulted in the switcheroo where the upstanding folx ( irgun et al, who held the position 'rm -rf britain' , were replaced by the internationalkomyooniti obedient muppet circus who ended up 'recognized' by said komyooniti as 'israel'
phf: adlai: the dig was mostly at the fact that israelis tend to be very nationalistic in public, but sit down with an ashkenazi and you'll always have this "fireside chats" kind of vague pluralistic opinions. "well, we're /all/ made of stardust, my friend"
adlai: ok, I completely misread your perspective. I still don't see why considering personal sovereignty as the fundamental value is contrary to the sovereignty claims of certain superorganisms; simply, they must be structured to protect individuals; whether you call this principle 'human rights', 'not treading on liberties', or something similar, is mostly semantics.
verisimilitude: That almost seems like a description of pilpul, phf.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: literally
verisimilitude: Yes.
adlai: yeah there's definitely strong indoctrination that regardless of your personal opinions, when you face outwards and there is no e.g. consulate at yoru back, then you are the foreign mission.
adlai: this was one of the things taught in basic training; "whenever you wear the uniform, you represent your unit, and you represent the military; whenever you travel, you represent Israel;" etc
asciilifeform: adlai: well we had e.g. 'И один в поле воин, если он по-русски скроен', similar
adlai must have been vaccinated against this kind of national-pride-by-default from young age
adlai: please interpret, for the linguistically and lexically challenged folks?
adlai e.g. still connects from IRC program that turns anything with 8th bit set into a question mark
asciilifeform: adlai: riff on older proberb 'one man in the field is no warrior'. 'even one is a warrior, if he is made of our stuff'
phf: adlai: it was not a political statement, it was a joke about the jew. "my friend, but we all stand alone in the face of god, for reb such and such said.. ... what? at the border? woman where's my tavor!"
asciilifeform: 'all men are brothers, but let the warhead fall on others'(tm)
verisimilitude: ``All men are physico-chemically equal.''
asciilifeform: to revisit upstack thread, before it is lost in digression : what asciilifeform , in the 'if wishes were horses' sense, would ideally be up to, is running a 'Klein type-1 organization'. but impossible w/ avail. resources. so , experimenting with what is possible.
asciilifeform fwiw does not believe that such thing possible in context of current reich , and all claims to the contrary -- believes to be cynically fraudulent
asciilifeform: (hence, no, not aboutta treat folx who volunteered scarce cycles as 'subordinate', or ask 'fealty', or promise anyffin at all re great victories.)
asciilifeform: ( if e.g. tbf piggy suddenly amts to sumthing other than dryer lint, could rethink selected aspects of this, but otherwise is as it is )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 15:39:49 asciilifeform: for reference, piggy, seen through a heathen blockexploder .
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-18 11:28:20 asciilifeform: ... problem is, is very difficult to increase the amt of useful work with coin (aside from, hypothetically, jailbreaking ~people~, ideally 2-3 people. but piggy -- or 'sandwich-adjusted' exchrate -- would have to be ~10x bigger to make this plausible)
adlai: asciilifeform: what's the rationale for the reserved field in section 3.3.1.4 ?
asciilifeform: adlai: word alignment.
asciilifeform: ( and potential expansion of 'command' upward )
asciilifeform: can picture wanting >256 commands.
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097239 << i think there's a lot more to upstack than this, personally i think it's worthwhile to thoroughly explore it, but doesn't need to be one long thread.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 14:45:22 asciilifeform: to revisit upstack thread, before it is lost in digression : what asciilifeform , in the 'if wishes were horses' sense, would ideally be up to, is running a 'Klein type-1 organization'. but impossible w/ avail. resources. so , experimenting with what is possible.
asciilifeform: phf: imho worth
asciilifeform must bbl, but promises to answer later
adlai: why is there a prohibition on console output in section 3.3.1.6.8 , instead of the allowance to collect statistics similar to the final paragraph of 3.3.2 ?
adlai imagines e.g. hourly report, "dropped five gigabytes of martian liquishit, tolerated three megabytes of peered garbage"
phf: asciilifeform: nor do i think the upstack will get lost, at least not by my doing, because without resolving it, /i/ don't really see any reason to do anything. why would i need peh to chat to you guys about good old days, can do it here fine
adlai: obviously much more detailed in cases where the primary challenge is evasion of countermeasures
asciilifeform: phf: could take it further, and , e.g. 'why chat w/ buncha numbskulls on irc, could even better at the pub'. there is no possible counterargument.
asciilifeform: either one's interested in decentralization toolsmithing , or one aint, and who aint will likely very easily find moar interesting place to be elsewhere
asciilifeform: ( aand fwiw the 'good o' days' thread (not that asciilifeform has anyffin against occasional such thrd) was kicked off by phf )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 11:28:49 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096884 << no, and i won't without a sufficient reason. if it wasn't obvious the confluence of "anyone can write a logotron" and "fuck you phf give use your code" of the mid/late tmsr made me reconsider. the model proposed by the republic was explicitly not open-source, that is it wasn't just about releasing the code for the sake of releasing it, it was about building shared
signpost: why is nontrivial, and for most that have why, it's an heirloom.
asciilifeform presumed, when phf delurked, that he found some aspect of what was taking place in #a interesting and worth dirtying hands into; but could be mistaken
signpost: I think you're taking the comment in the wrong direction.
asciilifeform: hm?
signpost: the synthesis of no-external-deps "why" was the tmsr project, as I believe I hear phf indicating.
signpost: from which, tech, attitude towards the empire, other consequences.
signpost: the question of from-what "why" is interesting, and not solvable quickly.
signpost: hell, that's the fucking project of all history.
asciilifeform: signpost: 'no deps' aint the beginning nor end of the story, or we'd install dr-dos and live happilyeverafter
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096938 << no longer interested in "re-inventing wheel" but content w/ "turd polishing"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 11:28:49 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096884 << no, and i won't without a sufficient reason. if it wasn't obvious the confluence of "anyone can write a logotron" and "fuck you phf give use your code" of the mid/late tmsr made me reconsider. the model proposed by the republic was explicitly not open-source, that is it wasn't just about releasing the code for the sake of releasing it, it was about building shared
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 04:09:31 cdd: I'd be interested in an advanced search. It's bothering me that I can't search "all posts by mircea_popescu in between x and y addressed to asciilifeform containing 'logotron'"
cdd: I respect whatever you wanna do with your secret sauce.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 11:37:22 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096888 << just write it then? a lowest end of effort that's less than 3 hours of work time. log format is standard, i don't know what asciilifeform is dumping it as, but back in my day i made sure it was kako's id;timestamp;nick;message. less than an hour of work to load it into sqlite, then your hypothetical query becomes a trivial sql statement
asciilifeform: can't guarantee that interpreted correctly, but phf's fundamental q appears to be 'why should i tune into #a, rather than go and moar rifle practice'. to which asciilifeform will not offer an answer, as believes 'if you gotta ask...'(tm)
adlai: !!gettrust cdd
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
adlai: ah. welcome back!
crtdaydreams: bleh
phf: asciilifeform: you puff up as fast as you deflate.
phf: or i guess the other way around :>
asciilifeform: on the contrary, neither inflated nor deflated
asciilifeform: still precisely same volume as start.
crtdaydreams pictures one of those `tube men' outside car dealerships
adlai: crtdaydreams: you've seen that the log database can be downloaded? obviously not as convenient as using the search box in the web interface, yet it does let you make arbitrary queries locally.
asciilifeform simply must admit that it aint a q to which asciilifeform prepares answers, or thinks requires external answer
asciilifeform: e.g. jonsykkel , cgra , et al -- found answer .
phf: cool, good for them
crtdaydreams: adlai: yes, haven't downloaded it and not willing to gamble on size. restricted 'net d/u data
crtdaydreams: but specifically dunno what i'd do with it?
crtdaydreams: write direct SQL queries???
phf: crtdaydreams: what's wrong with that?
crtdaydreams: phf: size or sql?
phf: sql
adlai: if regular SQL causes you nausea, you could massage it into various other formats; and/or build some index for the kind of queries you'd find relevant
phf: crtdaydreams: there's some major disconnect here. how are you going to work on a much more demanding system, if you can't seem to environment a significantly lesser investment
adlai has never seen 'environment' used as a verb!
asciilifeform: ftr the gz'd db is ~85M currently.
crtdaydreams: eh, nothing. just would be nice to go (db-query :daterange 02-11-2015 04-11-2015)
asciilifeform: unless yer on a 486, nuffing heavy about it
crtdaydreams: eh, nothing. just would be nice to go (db-query :daterange '("02-11-2015" "04-11-2015"))
crtdaydreams: eck
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: so, go, glue e.g. 'postmodern' on it, and query away
crtdaydreams: asciilifeform: postmodern?
adlai: crtdaydreams: I probably missed your self-introduction, if there were one; you have CL experience?
verisimilitude: I don't know SQL either, phf, and I don't consider this a loss for me.
crtdaydreams: adlai: newb.
adlai: gave you benefit of doubt, 'noob' rating could have only been new-to-here.
asciilifeform also 'not knows' sql, picked up just enuff to make phuctor & logotron, in the process of writing
verisimilitude: SQL is ugly.
adlai: fwiw, "new blood" was standard rating text back in the old glorious lordship days.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what part of all of it aint ugly, lol
asciilifeform: whole stack is made of 100% pure weapons-grade ug
verisimilitude: Why, the things I've made aren't ugly, of course.
verisimilitude: I'm joking.
asciilifeform: narcissism is worse for yer health than smoking, verisimilitude
adlai: verisimilitude: lol, the most recent code sample of yours that we discussed includes a comment where you say... ah yes. ok, you do joke occasionally!
verisimilitude: At least it's more fun.
adlai: this particular joke was far from obvious because you are often quite snobby.
verisimilitude: That's why it came with a tag.
verisimilitude: Some of what I write isn't ugly, at least not in principle.
crtdaydreams: Ideally would have parser on frontend for from; mircea_popescu to; asciilifeform range; 02-11-2015:04-11-2015 ; "language" "fuck" example
adlai: much common lisp code is quite ugly, and I actually like parentheses.
crtdaydreams: parser returns s-exp query to db
asciilifeform hopes to one day write sumthing 'not ugly', but if & when happens, will be for ~others~ to decide
adlai: crtdaydreams: holy hell bro; semicolons don't work that way!
crtdaydreams: adlai: shuhs
crtdaydreams: shsh
adlai: how about "from: m_p; to: alf; ..."
crtdaydreams: just example of synatx
crtdaydreams: s/synatx/syntax/
asciilifeform: adlai: the original offers no hard encoding for 'to'
crtdaydreams: adlai: problem was range: ...
adlai: sure you can redefine anything, but please keep some semblance of 'principle of least surprise'
crtdaydreams: adlai: will keep to s-exp :)
verisimilitude: I'm carrying around my pretty things, with the expectation I may one day set them in their final places, and not in shit.
adlai: asciilifeform: there are multiple conventions; for years I used an IRC client that placed a comma after tab-completing a nick at the start of the line, and I still do that when typing without tab completion.
adlai forgets what client that was; may have simply been different configuration for this one.
asciilifeform: there's various conventions, and there's what's actually in the schema. the latter -- strictly time,chan,speaker,text.
adlai: isn't this impossible to encode into the schema?
adlai: for example, I am addressing you, yet your name does not appear in this line.
adlai: AI-complete problem!!!
verisimilitude: It's easier to see beauty in something when one be mere user.
asciilifeform: adlai: can encode colour of hair if you like. addressing what's actually in the historical data.
asciilifeform: ( vs what yer stuck inferring, lossily , if insist )
crtdaydreams: asciilifeform: re postmodern: am more familiar with (ql:quickload 'sqlite)
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: so -- flag into yer hands ! go , write
verisimilitude: I'm working on ``solving'' a little game, giving most thought when sleeping, and my solution will certainly be pretty, not ugly.
adlai: tbh, log search is much more useful, in my experience, when you know what you're seeking and only wish to provide others with a link to the previous conversation, and possibly refresh your own memory of the exact quotes.
verisimilitude: Oh, I do have some examples of things I've written which aren't ugly, my machine code.
asciilifeform: adlai: imho is unlikely to be useful in any other context, no matter what knobs bolted on
phf: adlai: i dunno can also play log roulette, search for e.g. "whore" or "god" or whatever
asciilifeform: ... or hit 'random'
adlai: I never found it much good for "I wonder whether TMSR has precedent and verdict about XYZ"; occasionally (e.g. when I searched for 'urbit') there is an easy hit, and occasionally, neologisms make the search hopeless.
asciilifeform: (bottom of pg)
verisimilitude: Machine code is so easily made so pretty, in ways current high-level languages fail.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: normally the machine per se is uggly enuff that nothing 'pretty' about the asm proggy
verisimilitude: I didn't mention it earlier, adlai, but I'll actually be pleased with the Roman numerals program when I write a machine code version.
adlai: don't you mostly write machine code for more parsimonious instruction sets than the variable width horrors of modernity?
verisimilitude: Yes, but just ignore that.
asciilifeform: ( perhaps interestingly, attempts to solve nontrivial problems on 'parsimonius' pseudo-machine instr sets even ~more~ ugly invariably. 'the scheme disease' )
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096890 << the little arrows that appear next to log entries that are later referenced elsewhere, e.g. this is the top most referenced entry, at some point in history http://btcbase.org/log/2014-06-04#700916
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 04:14:15 cdd: also, wdym by 'backlinkage?'
verisimilitude: Put that cat back in the bag this instant, adlai.
adlai: fwiw, there is a modern hebrew proverb - "selling a bagged cat", which I find quite amusing
asciilifeform: adlai: most of europe has same proverb. and would bet that asia too
adlai: idiomatically it means that the buyer has no idea what they are getting, they only see the outside of the sack
adlai: yet... have you ever tried putting a cat inside a sack, without the fact of a cat's presence in the sack being painfully evident?
verisimilitude: So, this Hebrew proverb describes computer purchases.
asciilifeform: ( tho the english variant, 'pig in poke', does not reference the cat directly; but iirc the 'pig' often turned out to be cat )
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096891 << i've tried that, i found the result to be unsatisfying. of course you're not rigging emacs, you have a custom "load" in your lisp, that keeps track of state, etc.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 04:23:16 cdd: also, wondering if anyone has rigged vpatch for emacs to live-patch a repl?
verisimilitude: Anyway, yes, I just ignore the ugly machines.
verisimilitude: The least ugly physical machine of mine is MIPS of all things.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: also ignore nontrivial problems that'd give over9000 complexity on 'beautiful' machine if attempted, tho
verisimilitude: No, asciilifeform, I get to have the challenge of doing it anyway.
verisimilitude: There are methods for this.
verisimilitude: It just requires far more thought than most will ever care to give.
adlai: complexity in and of itself doesn't need to be ugly
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097373 << specifically the approach was to have a vpatch state in the lisp: the entire source tree up to the current point. when you load a vpatch, the system first checks if the patch can be pressed against the in-memory tree, then the vpatch is pressed, noting of the top level forms that have been updated, the top level forms are then evaluated. can simply skip bits that are the
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 16:30:47 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096891 << i've tried that, i found the result to be unsatisfying. of course you're not rigging emacs, you have a custom "load" in your lisp, that keeps track of state, etc.
phf: same. it worked /ok/, but for a single user project this kind of mgmt overhead was needless.
adlai: for example, much mathematics is quite elegant, despite having much complexity if you express it using any notation other than the most concise
asciilifeform: would even work if 'shelled out' and pressed the usual way, on disk
adlai: phf: you had files stored as strings per line, in the memory of a lisp image?
asciilifeform: adlai: back when 'mathematics was still happening', its practitioners spent sometimes entire lives on fighting complexity, rather than 'multiplying entities'
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-05-18 asciilifeform: and even if he believes that it ~cannot~ be further shrunk, it remains his job to die trying
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-05-31 asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
asciilifeform: ditto physics
adlai was thinking more along the lines of e.g. dirac equation, which can be written as approximately half a dozen symbols if you go to the extreme
phf: asciilifeform: not quite the same policy though. you're pressing not against a tree or a particular press. you're pressing against what the lisp thinks its press is. can e.g. upload a patch, and have it rejected because the state is not what it's supposed to be. can also press a sequence of patches /from the point of state of the lisp/. otherwise you have to keep canonical tree around, making sure that it's not accidentally clobberedg.
asciilifeform: phf: right, if need 'intelligently, per state of lisp' then much tricker problem.
asciilifeform: over9000 harder.
phf: adlai: yes, but i was simply reusing what /patches already knew how to do
phf: adlai: e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch21a_ter_ch14_ch20_errata.kv/tree/ is from in-memory everything
asciilifeform: btw phf , possib. bug in there
bitbot: (pest) 2022-04-19 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/9978-bugfixes/tree/blatta/lib/station.py << lol 404 ( hey phf ?? )
adlai meanwhile has improved understanding of pest spec; writing peer seems like a reasonable target, although at the complex end of the range.
phf: asciilifeform: yeah, there's some problems with the press. i've never fixed it because graph theory makes my head hurt
adlai: enough chitchat for me for one evening; goodnight folks
asciilifeform: adlai: if you can think of ways to make w/ fewer moving parts, i'm all ears
asciilifeform: adlai: 'nighty
asciilifeform: phf: afaik thimbronion's blatta is entirely linear, patchwise, tho
phf: asciilifeform: yes, but not everything is, so entirely possible to get into wrong state with linear press, if you're trying to accomodate some other kind of non-linear press. i think i have a handful of different press functions, none of them particularly satisfying
asciilifeform not having seen phf's algo, unfortunately cannot comment further. asciilifeform's orig. algo also had well-known limitations
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097253 << 'ignore' ? cuz nobody wants GBs of liquishit pumped to his console, lolwtf
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 15:11:48 adlai: why is there a prohibition on console output in section 3.3.1.6.8 , instead of the allowance to collect statistics similar to the final paragraph of 3.3.2 ?
asciilifeform: ( see also )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-03-11 asciilifeform: '...for your convenience we have packaged the defective 8% of transistors you asked for, separately!' (tm) (r)
phf: well, to date nobody has produced a working algorithm. i think maybe diana coman has, but i also think she might've changed the requirements sufficiently, since she had a mandate for blank slate, to eliminate the problem altogether
asciilifeform: phf: depends what means 'working'. is topologically same problem as e.g. refcounting gc. so if you must permit cycles, can use 'tortoise & hare' algo.
asciilifeform: imho is braindamaged to permit cycles, or treat them in any way other than to ring fire alarm.
asciilifeform: ( which the original -- does )
asciilifeform in fact content, then as nao, to define any vtree which the orig. algo won't press simply as invalid.
phf: asciilifeform: working means can produce a press without choking.
asciilifeform: and the job of the author to find why and fix
asciilifeform: phf: i dun recall any instances of v.py botching a press of anything that wasn't afflicted by 'coarse error of pilotage' of author, to date
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-03-11#1430441 I'm remembering what he did to the chicken.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-03-11 mircea_popescu: even without shoehorning "hitler" in here, the only sane way reproduction works is that i have life and death power over any offspring until they go on their own.
asciilifeform to this day uses exclusively v.py , and 0 headaches w/ pressing in recent yrs on any occasion
phf: asciilifeform: you can't possibly go from "algorithm had known problems" to "to date there's not been a single problem"
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2014-02-16#509010 This is a good joke.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-02-16 asciilifeform: they pass an old man who says, 'don't drown this fellow. i'll feed him dumplings, he won't have to do any work but to dip them'
asciilifeform: phf: the 'problem', such as it is, is poor barfology on ill-formed inputs.
asciilifeform: makes tricky to find wtf author fucked
asciilifeform: but well-formed inputs 100% press correctly. trb, ffa, blatta, logotron, etc.
phf: asciilifeform: i can't even
verisimilitude: It's valid, but can be unsatisfying, to define correct operation like this.
asciilifeform: can't even what, phf ? they press correctly.
verisimilitude: Ideally, a program handles everything which be thrown at it.
asciilifeform: dun take asciilifeform's word for it, can try w/ own hands
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ideally many things
verisimilitude: It's a clear domain, phf, just one that may need testing for validity; it's a precondition failure.
asciilifeform: imho would be a++ to make a v.py that gives moar detailed failure analysis. asciilifeform would read, sign, such patch. but this wasn't what anyone to date wanted to do, erryone wants to bake own from 0, as folx typically do
asciilifeform: (and most of the time introduce ~new~ breakage, lol, while doing so)
verisimilitude: As do I.
asciilifeform: ill-formed v inputs come in 3 equiv. classes -- ill-syntaxed (i.e. can't parse, or one of a pair of patch, or its sig -- missing) ; ill-connected ( topological 'islands' on graph ) ; cyclical ( i.e. commits what is prohibited in chess, a return to previous state of game board ) .
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's orig. vtron did not ( still does not ) 'gracefully' handle the last 2 classes.
asciilifeform: but on all well-formed ( i.e. no 'islands', no 'cycles' ) trees -- worx 'as printed on the tin'.
asciilifeform: ( anyone who witnessed otherwise -- plox to write in. )
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097269 << I was using software as a metaphor here for authorship of a from-first-principles structure of meaning.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 16:06:45 asciilifeform: signpost: 'no deps' aint the beginning nor end of the story, or we'd install dr-dos and live happilyeverafter
signpost: "great artists steal" applies here; "nothing above us and the whole world below" I believe the declaration read.
asciilifeform: signpost: in that case yes; tho we're very far, technologically, from this
signpost: 100% agree.
asciilifeform arrived at 'need machine where iron schematic and complete os stack fit in paperback book, or fucking die trying' in '06. then in '07 www.
asciilifeform: complexity demolition is the ultimate 'intelligence amplification'.
signpost: mhm, one of those tidy ethical questions where "if you value anything *at all*, necessarily also must value this"
phf: asciilifeform: so in other words, reading the rest of the thread, tmsr was your venue to realize this objective, nothing more? klein type-1 org elsewhere, etcx.
asciilifeform: ( for so long as done correctly, and 'the earth properly salted' so it cannot grow back )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 16:28:25 asciilifeform: ( perhaps interestingly, attempts to solve nontrivial problems on 'parsimonius' pseudo-machine instr sets even ~more~ ugly invariably. 'the scheme disease' )
asciilifeform: phf: not only.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
signpost: "to live in civilization" is the shortest rendering I have.
asciilifeform: phf: asciilifeform also interested in de-elitizing technology.
asciilifeform: for which was willing to work, for rather long time, with a fella who caricaturedly embodied nearly errything asciilifeform opposes.
phf: asciilifeform: oh i didn't realize you were a passive subject in the shaping of tmsr, toiling under an abusive leader, sustained only by the vision of the glorious computing future
asciilifeform: phf: you decide whether 'passive subject' or in fact baked good % of the programme.
asciilifeform: who is asciilifeform to decide.
signpost: this notion of prohibition of speaking ill of the dead is a pointless obstacle in the thread.
signpost: asciilifeform and mp argued *at length*; the idea that there's some ideological turn here, I don't see it.
asciilifeform: signpost: it's a ru proverb, but not prev. aware of anyone taking it seriously as a universal principle
signpost: for that matter, one can find me bitching directly at mp while he lived that we needed to go hustle, or die.
signpost: I don't think anyone that was there was a mindless follower of him, nor that he was the sole author of the little machine.
phf: signpost: you'll have to clarify what you're talking about, because i can't map it to anything i said
asciilifeform recalls kilometres of log where laboured to convince him that yes, reich is an organized entity, yes, organized subversion of software, of cryptography, of bitcoin, etc
signpost: phf: I take you to be driving for admission of a shared ideology at the time, which you consider there to have been some turning against.
asciilifeform: in fact precedes asciilifeform's invitation to #ba. init. was correspondence elsewhere
signpost: I could be wrong, and say so to be corrected if so.
phf: signpost: no, i'm mocking asciilifeform's pierrot pose
asciilifeform: phf: where pose ?
phf: asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097459
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 17:36:17 asciilifeform: for which was willing to work, for rather long time, with a fella who caricaturedly embodied nearly errything asciilifeform opposes.
asciilifeform: was, funnily enuff, a gargantuan amt of work, to bake for mp a consistent (in aspects not revolving around cock, lol) ideology. much harder than writing various proggies.
asciilifeform: ( imho what fella started with was just about limited to erudite defense of his own pyramid scheme against competing ones. )
asciilifeform: who, if anyone, 'ate' whom ? will leave to log readers.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's brother once remarked 'you killed him, like you killed gabe laddel' )
signpost: lol
asciilifeform refuses to take responsibility for these 'kills'. folx walk into his workshop, all jars & power tools clearly labeled.
signpost: killed himself by offending the gods with thoughts the universe itself destroys when they arise.
signpost: life could not exist otherwise.
verisimilitude: So asciilifeform is cursed.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: newz at 11, lol
verisimilitude: Don't add me to the kill count if I die first.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: wasn't asciilifeform's pov, lol. but thought oughta mention.
signpost: for my part, the poison pill of the declaration was exactly the part I quoted.
signpost: reality above, always.
asciilifeform offers tools, mechanical ~and~ ideological, to folx, who sometimes yes, after failing to make'em work on their cave firmware, succumb to vodka. imho is b/w them and odin
asciilifeform ... cannot reinstall their firmware, that problem is 'beyond his pay grade.'
asciilifeform must bbl
phf: huh, alright then
phf: "why, why, why, i invented mp!"
verisimilitude: What was invented has been uninvented.
signpost hears on one end "thief will not have my work etched into his headstone" and on the other end, hell, are you going to eventually say, phf?
verisimilitude: I think my favourite story from there is the one concerning negative lines.
signpost: sounds like an echo of "no republic without mp" but I'm not going to keep trying to infer.
phf: signpost: why, neither
phf: signpost: i listened to what asciilifeform had to say on subjects, came to my own conclusions. it's definitely not "no republic without mp", because conversation started with "remember how awesome things were before mp usurped power"
signpost: this is all why the solution to starting a culture is usually, "I SAY. THERE, IT'S DONE."
signpost: it stops a certain process.
signpost: mp unquestionably did that. and wrote much else of value.
phf: signpost: wait, it sounds like /you're/ saying no republic without mp :D
signpost: the process it stops is men each clinging to incompatible hills upon which to die.
signpost: yep
phf: and just at that moment the student became enlightened :p
signpost: anything I've said in critique of mp is in service to correctly authoring the ideal man.
phf: signpost: i mean it should be obvious from what i said that i actually don't believe that's the case. but now i can also understand why the conversation is mostly about bitching about mp
signpost: guy was certainly not a construct of asciilifeform, and also was both of great genius and terminally flawed.
signpost: instructive as all hell, to see one of these.
phf: signpost: joke was about asciilifeform's particular maner of communicating, i don't actually think he was asciilifeform's invention, obv
signpost: your notion that this is "bitching" is characteristically condescending, but I don't mind that about you any more than I mind asciilifeform's arrogance.
signpost: of course.
signpost: only interesting thing to say about tmsr is what better men would've created, or even better, shall.
signpost: in this all participants are fair game.
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097480 << fwiw would like to mention has similar goals to asciilifeform but rather take fab approach to 'sane iron'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 17:58:40 asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's brother once remarked 'you killed him, like you killed gabe laddel' )
crtdaydreams: interesting take on zeloof
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-04-30 ben_vulpes: http://sam.zeloof.xyz/first-ic/# << 'garage' ic
crtdaydreams: though FPGA changes the game quite a bit
signpost bbl
crtdaydreams: having a meta-circular fpga in the sense can use lisp stack bootstrapped to fpga to program fpga seems like the way to go imo
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097449 << entirely possib w/ above
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 17:29:53 asciilifeform: arrived at 'need machine where iron schematic and complete os stack fit in paperback book, or fucking die trying' in '06. then in '07 www.
crtdaydreams prefers hardcover but whatever
verisimilitude: I like the idea of extending my machine code documenting to the scale of a book, detailing a single, larger program.
verisimilitude: The issue is copyright.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097495 << good story, not seen before
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 18:16:04 phf: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=I_Invented_Burrell.txt
phf: i sometimes think some things are in log when they aren't, apparently folklore never came up!
asciilifeform browsed linked www, found apropos piece, where, 'If you tell him a new idea, he'll usually tell you that he thinks it's stupid. But then, if he actually likes it, exactly one week later, he'll come back to you and propose your idea to you, as if he thought of it."'
asciilifeform: knew a fella like that...
asciilifeform: lotsa interesting 'klein type1' stories. ty for the link, phf
verisimilitude: I bought a pizza.
asciilifeform: 'rotary debugger'(tm)
verisimilitude: It's interesting, how maximum oven utilization likely requires predicting orders.
asciilifeform recalls a pc game where simulated running biz of... public pay toilet. predict utilization, optimize layout, talk to.. customers, etc
verisimilitude: I believe it was Wal-Mart that would slowly increase orders from its suppliers, to let them get comfortable predicting them, and then stop, in order to bankrupt and purchase them cheaply.
asciilifeform: algo pioneered by, iirc, rockefeller
asciilifeform: in early 1900s
verisimilitude: I think the difference is a computer can utilize resources without prediction, through better designs.
asciilifeform: today not only programmers but even monopolists mostly crib from ancient playbook rather than inventing anyffin.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-03-25 asciilifeform: - How come they use the word "sommelier"? - he asked yet another stupid question, - So many different professions, but only one word...
verisimilitude: Now I recall plenty of pizza places use an oven design with a conveyor belt, allowing as many pizzas as will fit to pass through one-after-the-other, and this is about as good as it gets.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: is how not only industrial bakeries, but e.g. pcb manufacturers work
verisimilitude: Mass printing also uses such.
asciilifeform: and for that matter any industrial process with seriously heavy capital gear, tries to keep 100% (or as duty cycle allows) booked
verisimilitude: It's only for how fast they are, that we don't see computers as slow as the truly are.
verisimilitude: It's only for how fast they are, that we don't see computers to be as slow as they truly are.
verisimilitude: That's the pen article, right?
asciilifeform: aha
verisimilitude: I like to liken computers to transportation.
verisimilitude: Imagine if we only had four-seat cars, and no planes or trains.
verisimilitude: APL is a train.
asciilifeform: four seat cars w/ four brake and gas pedals, lol
verisimilitude: Oh my, yes.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 19:09:55 verisimilitude: The issue is copyright.
asciilifeform: meanwhile in nifty pages on the folklore thing.
asciilifeform: 'The basic Mac architecture was very spare, („TIGHT!” as the teenagers now say): about 32 ICs not counting the 68000 and the 16 RAM chips. There was the Timing State Machine (TSM), made out of a PAL and some flipflops; the Linear Address Generator (LAG) made out of a PAL and a couple of counters; the Bus Mgmt Unit (BMU) PAL, 4 multiplexors for the RAM addressing, 2 EPROMs, some bus drivers, a video output shift reg
asciilifeform: ister, and the 6522 Peripheral Interface Adapter (PIA) which had 16 programmable I/O lines, which handled the keyboard and mouse interfaces and some other tasks. That was the core architecture, to which was added the dual serial ports, the internal and external floppy drive ports, the real-time clock chip, and the sound output. The PALs were the Programmable Array Logic parts made by MMI, which allowed one to write out
asciilifeform: put logic equations to define each of the 8 outputs. They were fairly power-hungry (by today’s standards at least) but were cheap and flexible and Burrell put them to good use.'
asciilifeform: 'The underside of the wire-wrap protos was of course a maze of wires. One morning we were amazed to find that one of the protos was badly scorched... it turned out that late the night before, Burrell had been making some changes and managed to get power and ground shorted together somehow, and in his impatience to get the proto back up, he decided to use ‘brute force’ by removing all the chips and connecting 120VAC
asciilifeform: across the power and ground in an attempt to ‘burn out’ the short.... a misguided attempt, as one would expect! I don’t that proto was ever revived.'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097517 << imho just as possible nao to create, and in same vein, as prev. yes, will have fewer hands,
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 18:34:12 signpost: only interesting thing to say about tmsr is what better men would've created, or even better, shall.
asciilifeform: ... but again imho much of what the 'moar hands' were doing, was in certifiably dead ends (e.g. the 'isp in third world' misadventure)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 23:49:04 asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: link was moar re 'there aint such a thing as an off-grid isp'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 23:05:25 asciilifeform: ... and costs 10x less than piz cage ( let's say 5x, moar exactly, given that there's ~half of errything )
asciilifeform: ( or asciilifeform's misadventure, or or. )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-15 00:08:52 asciilifeform: bonechewer: for background info, the cost of fabricating the 1st 100 FGs was ~5k usd. and that's not counting asciilifeform's time , or 1st microbatch of prototypes with defective solder joins , asciilifeform's microscopy time and fight w/ the board people, etc etc
asciilifeform: ( see also re subj )
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-26 15:40:40 asciilifeform: PeterL: virtually all of'em went to l1 folx
signpost: possible in all times and places to assemble and be greater men.
asciilifeform: surely
signpost: in tales of lesser men, https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/full-embargo-russian-oil-would-send-brent-185bbl-jpmorgan
signpost: "EU is set to declare a full embargo on Russian oil after this weekend's French election"
asciilifeform: ( re 'assemble', see also... )
asciilifeform: signpost: but not gas, lol
asciilifeform: 'god grant me escape from sin, but not just yet!'(augustine)
signpost: ssshhh, very serious embargo
asciilifeform: lel
asciilifeform: 'will buy tram ticket! and then walk! to spite the conductor!'(tm)(r)(ru)
asciilifeform: signpost: the interesting corollary is that also possible to assemble and 'be lesser men' (reddit et al.)
asciilifeform: ( or other failure modes, like when folx walk off cliffs under command of lunatic )
signpost: absolutely possible; the manner of interacting determines everything.
asciilifeform: whether high pass filter for 'bell curve' is installed, also plays in.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 13:58:24 asciilifeform: at one time there was an accidental iq filter in place.
asciilifeform: or, say, whether can avoid the 'prestige pilfering' which nailed opensores.
asciilifeform: ( re which 'dun have anyffin for rats to eat, and you'll have no rats' proverb applies )
asciilifeform recalls endless parade of visitors in #ba, #t, begging for coin, or more often for 'nod of approval' by fuhrer
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097500 << In honor of the 30th anniversary of Waco siege, I propose calling ourselves "Branch Derpidians".
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 18:25:34 signpost: sounds like an echo of "no republic without mp" but I'm not going to keep trying to infer.
asciilifeform: lol