Results 1 ... 250 found in all logged channels for 'systemd' | →
(pest) signpost[asciilifeform]: distributions patch openssh to support systemd notification, and libsystemd
(pest) asciilifeform: ^ sshd (on systemd-infected boxen) booby, hidden in autoconf liquishit.
(pest) signpost[asciilifeform]: nah, the other one with the limbs sawed off systemd and sadly affixed to openrc
(pest) asciilifeform: signpost: the 'official' one, with systemd etc ?
(pest) cgra: imperial here meaning 'ubuntu', 'systemd' etc? old, new all the same
(asciilifeform) billymg: however, some of these questions are making me reconsider the point of that particular guide. i meant it more as a beginner's intro into the basics of gentoo / portage config, but the resulting system won't be completely systemd-free by the time you get to installing xorg, etc. (will be free of "systemd" but not other "systemdisms", such as tmpfiles)
(asciilifeform) TomServo: asciilifeform: I'd like as much hygiene one could hope on a 'daily driver' with xorg - mainly no systemd and able to run a node.
(asciilifeform) TomServo: Beyond that, I wonder if the systemd wackamole is too much for my peabrain to handle. Running into the tmpfiles issue as well.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110855 << lamerware 'for seek00rity professionals' that includes e.g. systemd is a fountain of lulz
(asciilifeform) billymg: i searched the logs re debian/centos, seems people prefer centos 6 (pre systemd apparently)
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-17 09:30:33 asciilifeform: 'artix' indeed is systemd-free. but many of the packages (e.g. 'cups') do not work; and device hotplugging is mysteriously broken (mass storage -- worx; usb-to-serial -- not; and this despite a known-good kernel. it's whatever the thing has instead of udev that's a dud)
(asciilifeform) crtdaydreams: not to mention all the systemdisms that I tried to remove in portage.mask/crapolade
(asciilifeform) shinohai: lmao from the sta.li page "/sucks - stuff that sucks, like ugly gnu library dependencies, or systemd fake handlers"
(asciilifeform) verisimilitude: SystemD is exemplary.
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-03 19:10:19 bonechewer: There is a somewhat curated list of systemd-free distros at sysdfree.wordpress.com
(asciilifeform) bonechewer: There is a somewhat curated list of systemd-free distros at sysdfree.wordpress.com
(asciilifeform) bonechewer: I think it is systemd-free
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-03 18:04:17 signpost: but yes, no systemd, no logind, no any of the systemd-by-another-name-if-you-squint
(asciilifeform) signpost: but yes, no systemd, no logind, no any of the systemd-by-another-name-if-you-squint
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 15:00:47 asciilifeform: ( do NOT permit systemd-logind, it is a supposedly-neutered but in fact complete copy of systemd , that the traitorous gentoo maintainers force-install on explicitly 'non-systemd' setup)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: notably, all (incl. above, and the current Official 'systemd-free' gentoo for that matter) infected with 'logind'.
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-17 09:30:33 asciilifeform: 'artix' indeed is systemd-free. but many of the packages (e.g. 'cups') do not work; and device hotplugging is mysteriously broken (mass storage -- worx; usb-to-serial -- not; and this despite a known-good kernel. it's whatever the thing has instead of udev that's a dud)
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-17 09:29:27 asciilifeform: did try a purportedly systemd-free 'modern' linux -- 'artix'. needed to serve a commercial client who traditionally used 'arch'.
(asciilifeform) billymg: dunno how tf there are over9000 linux enthusiasts using e.g. alpine, void, and other boutique distros yet no one willing to work on one without any systemdisms
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: verily. (gotta patch those systemd 0days!111)
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 15:03:51 asciilifeform: billymg: asciilifeform's /etc/portage/package.mask/systemd , for reference.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: mine came with an abominable systemd-infested shitlinux ('manjaro' or what was it)
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-01 15:13:48 billymg: asciilifeform, shinohai: this version of chromium finally built on my dbus/systemd-free gentoo. the solution was to comment out the musl related patches in the ebuild and set the -system-icu USE flag. i'm a bit embarrassed that i didn't try commenting out the musl patches sooner since i'm not on a musl build but
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: 'Eudev, elogind,opentmpfiles dont exist to make openrc (or runit or busybox or.... <Insert your preferred init>) like systemd.... They exist to allow people to not use systemd' >> lol, raft!
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 20:57:14 asciilifeform: mostly consisting of 'well you still gotta have dbus and gtk3!!! or you don't get to www/emacs/xorg/udev/etc/etc/etc!!' and 'ok have this thing that in fact contains 95% of systemd src but ~we'll call it something else~'
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-05 15:41:05 asciilifeform: 'Get ride of systemd-tmpfiles'
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 15:03:51 asciilifeform: billymg: asciilifeform's /etc/portage/package.mask/systemd , for reference.
(asciilifeform) billymg: asciilifeform, shinohai: this version of chromium finally built on my dbus/systemd-free gentoo. the solution was to comment out the musl related patches in the ebuild and set the -system-icu USE flag. i'm a bit embarrassed that i didn't try commenting out the musl patches sooner since i'm not on a musl build but
(asciilifeform) billymg: for anyone who's curious, this atk-bridge-2.0 shim worked for me. was able to emerge gtk+3 without pulling in any systemdisms, and from there was able to emerge my preferred text editor, 'sublime text'
(asciilifeform) billymg: asciilifeform: it seems like there are enough people out there not wanting dbus/systemd
(asciilifeform) billymg: asciilifeform: less about hygiene and more about which one is most likely to not require pulling in these systemdisms i've been spending time to avoid
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: '...Regardless of whether systemd's design was a good one, the reality is that notable programs have adopted its tmpfiles design and now depend on certain directories being available without being created by the application. Those directories are required to exist for proper functionality. To ensure their existence, your choices are:...'
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-05 15:46:03 asciilifeform: 'Since there are holdouts not wanting a systemd only distro, he's decided to slowly destroy it by making it look like the warmed over coprophilic pile called systemd.'
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: mostly consisting of 'well you still gotta have dbus and gtk3!!! or you don't get to www/emacs/xorg/udev/etc/etc/etc!!' and 'ok have this thing that in fact contains 95% of systemd src but ~we'll call it something else~'
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: at one point they became aware that most of the people still using some form of gentooism ~don't want~ systemdism under any sauce. but 'gotta' stuff it !! such were orders. so various subterfuges.
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 18:25:58 billymg: also, i'm now trying to get startx actually working, and looking at the gentoo guide for non-root-x it seems like i need to have at least elogind (which i think i removed because the xorg-server ebuild on his github wanted to pull in dbus if either systemd or elogind were present)
(asciilifeform) billymg: also, i'm now trying to get startx actually working, and looking at the gentoo guide for non-root-x it seems like i need to have at least elogind (which i think i removed because the xorg-server ebuild on his github wanted to pull in dbus if either systemd or elogind were present)
(asciilifeform) billymg: i used that guy's guide to rebuild openrc from his custom ebuild, then used his xorg ebuild and was able to build that as well
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: sys-apps/systemd-tmpfiles
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: ( do NOT permit systemd-logind, it is a supposedly-neutered but in fact complete copy of systemd , that the traitorous gentoo maintainers force-install on explicitly 'non-systemd' setup)
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-05 15:41:05 asciilifeform: 'Get ride of systemd-tmpfiles'
(asciilifeform) billymg: asciilifeform: configure: error: systemd-logind requested, but D-Bus is not installed.
(asciilifeform) billymg: asciilifeform: on a laptop of mine i started with a stock upstream gentoo (2018 i think) and retrofitted with gcc 4.9.x, afaict also still systemd free (i started with an openrc stage3 tarball)
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-23 15:13:39 asciilifeform: recently completed a gentoo box w/ xorg and using circa-2021 packages strictly, save for gcc (where 4.9) and w/out any systemdisms which crept in since the '16 cut date of dulap-gentoo ; so can confirm that it is possible. but sadly no time to document the process atm
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-23 15:13:39 asciilifeform: recently completed a gentoo box w/ xorg and using circa-2021 packages strictly, save for gcc (where 4.9) and w/out any systemdisms which crept in since the '16 cut date of dulap-gentoo ; so can confirm that it is possible. but sadly no time to document the process atm
(asciilifeform) billymg: asciilifeform: https://g3ngr33n.github.io/systemd-openrc/index.html << this is for excising any remaining traces of systemd from "stock" 2021 gentoo?
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-05 15:41:05 asciilifeform: 'Get ride of systemd-tmpfiles'
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform recently completed a gentoo box w/ xorg and using circa-2021 packages strictly, save for gcc (where 4.9) and w/out any systemdisms which crept in since the '16 cut date of dulap-gentoo ; so can confirm that it is possible. but sadly no time to document the process atm
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: 'Since there are holdouts not wanting a systemd only distro, he's decided to slowly destroy it by making it look like the warmed over coprophilic pile called systemd.'
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: summary : supposedly 'systemd-free' variant of current-day gentoo nevertheless littered with supposedly-neutered pieces of actual systemd. the 'maintainers' (saboteurs. but they call themselves..) slowly expand'em into reinstatement of systemd, 'boil frog'-style
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: meanwhile, for folx forced to retrofit recent xorg to a dulap-gentoo, to use recent gpus etc. and stuck with thousand-year dependency hell: [https://g3ngr33n.github.io/systemd-openrc/index.html]['Get ride of systemd-tmpfiles
(asciilifeform) punkman: and if Poettering wasn't doing systemd, he would be doing some other unspeakable horror, not any kind of "sane linux"
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: ... not to mention that it 'needs' one so that it can run systemdized linux w/ multiGB liquishit.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you find a systemd-free linux that runs on that box, plz post.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: and, as mentioned earlier, given as it sucks packages from 'arch' repos, many proggys refuse to run after installation, as they expect systemd. 'cups' printer util is one example.
(asciilifeform) trinque: devuan's the no-systemd debian fork
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: 'artix' indeed is systemd-free. but many of the packages (e.g. 'cups') do not work; and device hotplugging is mysteriously broken (mass storage -- worx; usb-to-serial -- not; and this despite a known-good kernel. it's whatever the thing has instead of udev that's a dud)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: did try a purportedly systemd-free 'modern' linux -- 'artix'. needed to serve a commercial client who traditionally used 'arch'.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: i maintain it for own use, and to offer to my isp customers. because i refuse to use or support systemd-infected pseudolinux.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: rather like e.g. systemd, is a peculiarly persistent effort to backport microshit dysfunction to linux
(alethepedia) lekythion: ...Development / Open Source Lennart *Poettering* on systemd’s...
(alethepedia) lekythion: Lennart Poettering on systemd’s Tumultuous Ascendancy – The New Stack
(alethepedia) lekythion: SystemD wrecking artist Lennart *Poettering* has proposed a substantial...
(alethepedia) lekythion: SystemD's Poettering Wants To Break Linux User Management To Suspend His Laptop | Qntra
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: Aerthean: however my gentoo is built on gcc 4.9, and carefully cleansed of systemdism. as well as being 'update-proof'.
(asciilifeform) edef: ah. i don't personally mind systemd that much (it is the closest experience to illumos SMF i can get on Linux), but i do resent not having a meaningful choice there
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: i don't want ANY trace of systemd, gtk3, and related filth, on my boxes.
(asciilifeform) shinohai: (Still managed to avoid systemd AND uses alsa)
(asciilifeform) trinque: (devuan is but debian without systemd)
(asciilifeform) trinque: which is annoying; I selected this vintage de-systemd-ified debian because it had gcc-4.9
(therealbitcoin) snsabot: (asciilifeform) 2019-12-09 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: the reason why must NOT 'emerge --sync' is that gentoo's upstream went full-bore tard in late '17. if you sync, 'emerge' simply becomes paperweight, as no longer accepts the systemdism-ban flags
(agriculturalsupremacy) asciilifeform: atm afaik mine's the only mirror that adds up to a proper (i.e. gcc4, 0 systemdism) gentoo .
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: even lulzier, systemd aficionado. gotta wonder why he reads my www.
(trinque) trinque: systemd-less debian
(ossasepia) lobbes: diana_coman: yeah, I suppose I could get them to install something else, but I'm not even sure that *is* the problem (though probably is if 7 is systemd).
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lobbes: centos 7 already brings in systemd so yeah, expect all sorts; that being said, if it's a virtual machine you have there, iirc on centos there is at times some additional mess with "containers-wtf" so that's another possible addition to your tower of problems.
(asciilifeform) snsabot: Logged on 2019-12-09 22:27:27 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: the reason why must NOT 'emerge --sync' is that gentoo's upstream went full-bore tard in late '17. if you sync, 'emerge' simply becomes paperweight, as no longer accepts the systemdism-ban flags
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: what the gpl folk have gotten, afaik, is a linux infested w/ systemdism (and, lately, built into microshit win10...) , the glorious privilege of begging for pennies on street , the 'freedom to read' ~unreadable multi-GB 'published sources', and other questionable 'wins'.
(trilema) dorion_road: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-13#1955279 << systemd now, what, a couple million lines of C ? 'open source', i.e. shit that's not microsoft.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: aha; note that centos 6 is a. last one without systemd b. set to vanish next March iirc ie get everything you need for it offline.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: danielpbarron: the reason why must NOT 'emerge --sync' is that gentoo's upstream went full-bore tard in late '17. if you sync, 'emerge' simply becomes paperweight, as no longer accepts the systemdism-ban flags
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: 'Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd...' << interesting, never seen before
(trilema) ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-30 21:09:33 mircea_popescu: meanwhile in lulz, http://thetarpit.org/2014/how-and-why-systemd-has-won#comment-182
(trilema) mircea_popescu: http://thetarpit.org/2014/how-and-why-systemd-has-won << also, the "unix philosophy" link is dead. which, on meditation, is actually quite reasonable.
(trilema) mircea_popescu now off to read spyked 's "how and why systemd has won" 2014 piece, kinda curious how 5 years aged it.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Anyways, while it's still available Devuan Jessie (systemd free Debian fork) seems the least shitty noobable distro of the day that hasn't linkrotted out of existence.
(trilema) spyked: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-06#1950016 <-- the big risk with the latter choice is that "they" (whoever owns ubuntu or w/e nowadays) will happily steer their os towards breaking the unix standard base (ls, cp, etc. system calls, ...) in the future. systemd lies on that line at least
(trilema) mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-29#1938903 << not all loss is disaster, of course not. but the same argument as contemplated in http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-29#1938852 is seen in "o look at linux, lost init, now systemd".
(ossasepia) snsabot: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:23:09 trinque: "eudev" exists as an alternative to the systemd-udev. dunno what else the heathens stapled to systemd meanwhile
(trilema) snsabot: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:23:09 trinque: "eudev" exists as an alternative to the systemd-udev. dunno what else the heathens stapled to systemd meanwhile
(spyked) feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/09/systemds-poettering-wants-to-break-linux-user-management-to-suspend-his-laptop/ << Qntra -- SystemD's Poettering Wants To Break Linux User Management To Suspend His Laptop
(trilema) feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/09/systemds-poettering-wants-to-break-linux-user-management-to-suspend-his-laptop/ << Qntra -- SystemD's Poettering Wants To Break Linux User Management To Suspend His Laptop
(trilema) asciilifeform: (gtk3 is fatwa'd, as it sucks in 'dbus' and thereby systemdism. see also. )
(ossasepia) asciilifeform: shrysr: the #t log contains countless examples of this story playing out : 'systemd', 'gcc 5', 'python 3', quite a few others.
(ossasepia) asciilifeform: shrysr: the algorithm is nearly always the same -- the perp carefully breaks an open source program (typical example, the 'systemd' people) via social engineering 'here, let's all linux distros use this new, exciting thing instead of init'. then proceeds to offer 'fix' which consists of pile of garbage carefully designed to break compatibility of other programs with the old, sane system. then perp goes around 'fixing' these progs.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: anyway, and quite as always: pick the stuff you think best satisfies those main criteria: no external dependency, runs on a linux with gcc 4.9 (or earlier) and without systemd and other shit, does comments and pingbacks (those ARE important), and you can get to actually know its code in one month at most.
(trilema) asciilifeform: lol just when asciilifeform begins to think 'maybe they have clue' -- out comes the systemdism, sslism
(trilema) mircea_popescu is vaguely curious if a century hence there will be tears shed over "all the destruction". someone's gonna cry for systemd, what.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: should show the parent. basically, the way this whole thing works is as follows : 1. linux is organized around "processes", which are a sort of agents let's say. they're listed in /proc/ ; 2. any process can spawn other processes, the whole menagerie's spawned by the kernel (which in systemd thing is also process 1, hence the whole http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-19#1863880 thing ). 3. a process can close, or be terminated, ki
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> today -- prolly they discuss which ver of systemd to use. << Nah, more likely they discuss how great the version they are ordered to use is
(trilema) asciilifeform: today -- prolly they discuss which ver of systemd to use.
(trilema) asciilifeform: y'mean systemd ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: and incidentally ( achtung rk users ! ) if you are careless and allow 'emerge' to update, you will hose the machine, from that point it will whine ( about the prohibition on systemd!! ) and grind to a halt when asked to emerge anyffin
(trilema) feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/01/systemd-journald-exploits-found-all-systemd-distros-affected/ << Qntra -- Systemd Journald Exploits Found All Systemd Distros Affected
(trilema) asciilifeform: i had naively installed 'archlinux' on it, and as result found out for 1st time what systemd was.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: top systemd keks. pwn eins!
(trilema) deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/10/systemd-vulnerability-allows-crashing-systems-remotely-and-probably-executing-code-too-with-dhcpv6-packets/ << Qntra - SystemD Vulnerability Allows Crashing Systems Remotely (And Probably Executing Code Too) With DHCPv6 Packets
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-10-01 15:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856366 << imo syslogger should be abolished altogether. before systemd it wasn't obvious to me what it is -- but now, plenty obvious. "unified logging" terrible idea.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856366 << imo syslogger should be abolished altogether. before systemd it wasn't obvious to me what it is -- but now, plenty obvious. "unified logging" terrible idea.
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1856140 << while i get mircea_popescu's angle of 'linus quisling, was always quisling then' , imho moar complicated, d00d did keep systemdism etc out of the kernel for 20yrs, somehow.
(trilema) asciilifeform: point upstack being, 100% of what i've touched with own hands of 'adult' heavy equip without microshit or systemd etc in it somewhere, was 1980s vintage or earlier.
(trilema) asciilifeform: wouldn't surprise me if it is being passed around, contextless, in heathendom, as 'make a gentoo sans systemd' pill.
(trilema) asciilifeform: what is gained from having there exist a drepperized systemd thing ? or what am i missing
(trilema) mircea_popescu: but i mean... lookit, the author will make a static binary ; and who the fuck is going to make a drepper systemd thing ?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-11#1833446 / http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-11#1833449 it would seem the correct mezcla would go USE="libressl offensive -X -libnotify -avahi -acl -bluetooth -consolekit -cups -dbus -iconv -nls -avahi -pulseaudio -systemd -wayland -xattr -tls-heartbeat" on the expectation -X does -gpm -gtk3 -gnome implicitly.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-07-11 18:03 asciilifeform: trinque has : USE="libressl offensive -X -acl -bluetooth -consolekit -cups -dbus -iconv -nls -pulseaudio -systemd -wayland -xattr"
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-07-11 18:02 asciilifeform: trinque: my current set : USE="-libnotify -consolekit -gtk3 -systemd -cups -dbus -gpm -avahi -gnome -tls-heartbeat -nls"
(trilema) asciilifeform: trinque has : USE="libressl offensive -X -acl -bluetooth -consolekit -cups -dbus -iconv -nls -pulseaudio -systemd -wayland -xattr"
(trilema) asciilifeform: trinque: my current set : USE="-libnotify -consolekit -gtk3 -systemd -cups -dbus -gpm -avahi -gnome -tls-heartbeat -nls"
(trilema) ave1: yes, It's the process of going sarting with "why am I not getting any core dumps" to "o hey the kernel will call a program to handle core dumps" to "O fuck, systemd is called". And then systemd with all of it's policies and pure stupidity.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2014-09-03 11:56 mircea_popescu: By default, systemd saves core dumps to the journal, instead of the file system. Core dumps must be explicitly queried using coredumpctl4. Besides going against all reason, it also creates complications in multi-user environments (good luck running gdb on your program's core dump if it's dumped to the journal and you don't have root access)
(trilema) ave1: !#s systemd core
(trilema) trinque: to particular hardware architectures, particular justwantedto variations like use of systemd or nsa.selinux, so on. the profile dir is about 20mb, so serious yak shaving needs to occur there. it's a task I've already done elsewhere (produced a minimal profile for an embedded system for printers recently), just needs to be done here.
(trilema) phf: v19 most people agree was the pinnacle of old school emacs, making that the default though is entirely impractical since most of the elisp code has changed drastically since. moving forward along the versions is the movement from "pure emacs" towards a "systemd included" dwim monstrosity.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: phf we will have to somehow resolve this issue, because neither of the current outcomes is seemly. having republicans use the google drive systemd website thing is idiotic ; taking people's shit is idiotic. wut do.
(trilema) phf: asciilifeform: you'd be amused by the latest emacs release, "Limited form of concurrency with Lisp threads" "Emacs now uses double buffering to reduce flicker on the X Window System" "Flymake has been completely redesigned" "TRAMP has a new connection method for Google Drive" "A systemd user unit file is provided". it's almost like a self-parody
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2016-09-15 15:08 phf: i think asdf is evil, version 3 is doing some straight up systemd shit. for those who don't know asdf 3 comes with fare's own portability layer called uiop, which in a very systemd agressive and underhanded style is superseding existing utility libraries.
(trilema) ckang: heh pre-systemd?
(trilema) trinque: rest assured nobody's bringing systemd, dbus, pulseaudio, et al, alive
(trilema) ckang: my biggest but dumbest peeve about systemd is the order of the action command
(trilema) ckang: having to deal with systemd and initd just makes me angry
(trilema) ckang: uggh, systemd makes me sad
(trilema) BingoBoingo: The systemd-isms poison the readability of a lot of useful gentoo problem solution flovored docs
(trilema) trinque: I think when you start enumerating those kinds of cases, there are many, and it's the sort of systemd hair we're familiar with.
(trilema) mod6: <+mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-07#1782333 << hey, we get systemd in, right ? the reboots' gonna be so fast you won't even notice them << lol
(trilema) mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-07#1782333 << hey, we get systemd in, right ? the reboots' gonna be so fast you won't even notice them
(trilema) asciilifeform: and is there a systemd on freebsd yet
(trilema) asciilifeform: i'm unaware of any muddle re whodunit in systemdism
(trilema) mircea_popescu: leaving aside the problem of time in this system, which promises to be gnarly (time where ?), would it TRULY make you feel better about systemd if the blond schmuck whose name i forget claimed alien possession ?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: nevertheless, i can't think of any project that actually thrived under his management. systemd tard pm'd circles around a decade's worth of collected rms effort in half a year.
(trilema) trinque: dunno it ends up being any more complicated than existing DHTs but for the urge to make a giant, complex, systemdtron with myriad ways of describing the same things.
(trilema) asciilifeform: xemacs was actually the first systemdism i ever ran into head on
(trilema) mircea_popescu: anyway, very much systemd-"debate"-in-a-can
(trilema) trinque: USE="-dbus -systemd -wayland -pulseaudio -gtk3 -icu -accessibility -nls -ipv6 -ldap" << with various in package.use
(trilema) asciilifeform: phf: funnily enuff, systemd is mentioned in them there docs.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: maybe it's a systemd clal.
(trilema) trinque: "eudev" exists as an alternative to the systemd-udev. dunno what else the heathens stapled to systemd meanwhile
(trilema) asciilifeform: ought to be specific -- it's the mere fact that a binturd of name 'systemd' is present.
(trilema) trinque: asciilifeform: is this the systemdtronic udev, or whole shebang?
(trilema) asciilifeform: phunphakt : this yr's gentoo stage3 all include systemd (disabled, sure, but BINARILY PRESENT motherfuckers)
(trilema) asciilifeform: in other noose, ALL of the 'livedvd' on gentoo's ftp appear to contain poetteringolade ( boots into gui horror, with systemd, 'networkmanager'-at-boot, etc. )
(trilema) mircea_popescu: https://thenewstack.io/unix-greatest-inspiration-behind-systemd/ "Lennart Poettering is one of those few extremely prolific and brilliant engineers who have literally changed the design of Linux-based operating systems."
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2016-08-04 13:17 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-04#1514253 << it was eaten by systemd. there is a (last i saw, working) clean fork, 'eudev'. and it looks like phf explains further down in the l0gz.
(trilema) phf: well, in a sense that it's not a special wrong. they also run systemd and can't wait for wayland etc. etc.
(trilema) TomServo: Being rid of systemd isn't so hard.. but dbus is quite a bitch.
(trilema) mod6: <+ben_vulpes> random entertaining systemderps https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1449001 << fall back to getting googholed huh?
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-07#1711352 << implemented over systemd's 'kernel dbus' nodoubt.
(trilema) danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-09#1695538 "the pogoplug experiment had nothing to do with scaling" << also it worked fine on my pogo. the only issue was i was doing it on some systemd monstrocity of a linux. There's no reason it wouldn't also work on a cuntoo-pogo as well
(trilema) mircea_popescu would very much like to see the lulzpile involved. fully systemd yet ? etc.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-07-21 10:06 ave1: well, I did not, but have looked at it now, I like the static story but fail to understand why they need to have their own faux systemd
(trilema) ave1: well, I did not, but have looked at it now, I like the static story but fail to understand why they need to have their own faux systemd
(trilema) jurov: systemd on boot doing GET requests there in 3..2..1
(trilema) erlehmann: also, any individual car using systemd and literally crashing because of it is unlikely to contain lennart.
(trilema) erlehmann: problem is timespan. systemd already could not handle an empty string and executed tasks for users named “0day” as root because names starting with numbers are hard, mmmkay?! it might take a long time before it collapses.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: famous moment of systemd sound engineering.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: that's kinda the point no systemd detractor ever made : that systemd is fundamentally and by itself an unstable arrangement, and it'll end up stuck systemding itself to death, very much like how the dnc keeps revolutionizing itself into irrelevancy.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: the problem with the systemd approach to system design is that everything ends up wanting to be its own master-exceptional-class.
(trilema) erlehmann: bonus: only affected program is systemd
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-07-01 23:36 sina: if you write a systemd unit file with "User=0day", it launches the process as root. Pottering sez: "not a bug"
(trilema) sina: if you write a systemd unit file with "User=0day", it launches the process as root. Pottering sez: "not a bug"
(trilema) sina: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237 << "systemd can't handle the process previlege that belongs to user name startswith number, such as 0day"
(trilema) mircea_popescu: o look, and systemd...
(trilema) asciilifeform: to trick systemd-resolved in to allocating a buffer that's too small, and subsequently write arbitrary data beyond the end of it.'
(trilema) asciilifeform: in other, not wholly unrelated, lulz, '...out-of-bounds write in systemd-resolved in Ubuntu, which is possible to trigger with a specially crafted TCP payload. ... Certain sizes passed to dns_packet_new can cause it to allocate a buffer that's too small. A page-aligned number - sizeof(DnsPacket) + sizeof(iphdr) + sizeof(udphdr) will do this... A malicious DNS server can exploit this by responding with a specially crafted TCP payload
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-06-23 01:35 asciilifeform: re knuth... names ain't, afaik, copyrightable anywhere, even in usa.. so i half expect to live to see a 'mircea popescu foundation' run by, e.g., malia obummer, which funds transsexualized rust programming for systemd plugins
(trilema) asciilifeform: re knuth... names ain't, afaik, copyrightable anywhere, even in usa.. so i half expect to live to see a 'mircea popescu foundation' run by, e.g., malia obummer, which funds transsexualized rust programming for systemd plugins
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-01-13 23:41 asciilifeform: from comments, lulzgold, 'The Hivemind is fully committed to systemd for service management, Wayland for graphical display, and PulseAudio for audio, which is why it doesn’t matter if you personally find them distasteful, they will become the de facto standard. For systems programming, Rust looks increasingly like it will be the Hivemind’s choice to replace C, as it has the backing of the Mozilla organization, is being used for r
(trilema) erlehmann: if i was sufficiently bored, i would do the same to systemd
(trilema) mircea_popescu: o look, " luke macken has created a systemd startup script"
(trilema) asciilifeform: is it infested with systemd yet ?
(trilema) phf: (speaking of common lisp. asdf the system dependency tool turned from 30k in version 1 into a asdf/uiop 900k monster in version 2. in a systemd move took over most of the compatability packages and is now present ~in every single lisp distribution~. with the did accomplished, Fare posts the following http://fare.livejournal.com/188429.html )
(trilema) asciilifeform: '...trivial systemd local root exploit, that
(trilema) asciilifeform: so from their pov 'it's our way or highway', 'systemd, winblows, crapple, or go write own device drivers'
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-01-14 01:28 mircea_popescu: aqnyway, the "hive mind" is fucking comedic already. FIVE YEARS with the subverted python, got them nowhere. close to five years pushing rust, nothing to show for it. systemd is still mostly a joke, and the hatred is growing exponentially while the pustule is growing logarithmic at that. meanwhile the republic cracked open the heartbleed in quite the painful fashion, no matter how much effort went into "rehappening" it. not t
(trilema) mircea_popescu: aqnyway, the "hive mind" is fucking comedic already. FIVE YEARS with the subverted python, got them nowhere. close to five years pushing rust, nothing to show for it. systemd is still mostly a joke, and the hatred is growing exponentially while the pustule is growing logarithmic at that. meanwhile the republic cracked open the heartbleed in quite the painful fashion, no matter how much effort went into "rehappening" it. not t
(trilema) asciilifeform: from comments, lulzgold, 'The Hivemind is fully committed to systemd for service management, Wayland for graphical display, and PulseAudio for audio, which is why it doesn’t matter if you personally find them distasteful, they will become the de facto standard. For systems programming, Rust looks increasingly like it will be the Hivemind’s choice to replace C, as it has the backing of the Mozilla organization, is being used for r
(trilema) gabriel_laddel_p: Oh right. Masamune is a gentoo (no systemd) curated for (sbcl) lisp development only. It offers graphics, CAS & other mathematical libs all in the same lisp process.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "consumers expect more like docker, systemd and ethereum!"
(trilema) mircea_popescu: that was the lulz of all time with systemd coupla years ago, the "selling point" of "faster boot times. for servers."
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2016-10-03 18:26 mircea_popescu: if anyone is inclined to maintain forks of any linux distro (much in the manner of trb - to clean, not to "support"/utf/systemd/etc) we can prolly work something out.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: if anyone is inclined to maintain forks of any linux distro (much in the manner of trb - to clean, not to "support"/utf/systemd/etc) we can prolly work something out.
(trilema) trinque: the thing may very well be 10 systemd cycles in, given its age
(trilema) phf: i think asdf is evil, version 3 is doing some straight up systemd shit. for those who don't know asdf 3 comes with fare's own portability layer called uiop, which in a very systemd agressive and underhanded style is superseding existing utility libraries.
(trilema) asciilifeform: cranking out systemd's, ukukus, etc.
(trilema) scriba: Logged on 2016-09-07: [01:06:18] <asciilifeform> 'Really, I think it’s too late for mainstream “Linux”. It’s gone. It’s done. Geeks of the world were easily fooled by a shiny new toy and a corporate propaganda campaign to match, without considering the engineering implications. You can still use a real (systemd-free) version of Linux, or move toward the BSDs, but if you stay with the
(trilema) asciilifeform: 'Really, I think it’s too late for mainstream “Linux”. It’s gone. It’s done. Geeks of the world were easily fooled by a shiny new toy and a corporate propaganda campaign to match, without considering the engineering implications. You can still use a real (systemd-free) version of Linux, or move toward the BSDs, but if you stay with the easy-to-use, polished distros, you’re no longer really using Linux. You’re just fooli
(trilema) asciilifeform: ng yourself, and they’re fooling you. Nor will systemd be the end of it – it’s just the beginning, the setup for future changes.'
(trilema) phf: "Systemd Rolls Out Its Own Mount Tool ☶ linux systemd phoronix.com"
(trilema) shinohai: When is someone finally gonna kill systemd and bury it deep.
(trilema) asciilifeform: 'systemd-logind must be restarted every ~1000 SSH logins to prevent a ~25 second delay'
(trilema) asciilifeform: where was systemd in the '90s ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: currently they have folks sawing in convergent directions, microshitians to 'linuxize', embrace, extend, e.g., the powershell derps; and poetterings to winblowiate linuxland, e.g., systemd.
(trilema) phf: are they going to integrate many lulz of systemd? are they going to do more dodgy shit, with nameless anons ripping hair on chest with indignation? are they going to coexist with freedesktop community, kind of like how one huckster can always recognize another, and keep each other at respectful distance until there's an opportunity for an underhanded move
(trilema) asciilifeform: (systemv init in systemd's case, flymake in flycheck's)
(trilema) asciilifeform: systemd is, fundamentally, of this species: 'systemv init script is... broken!111 yes! and here is REPLACEMENT eat up'
(trilema) asciilifeform: systemd gets a good thrashing regularly, but recall flycheck ?
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2016-08-04 05:40 phf: i don't know the details of ken sievers, some lesser part of systemd's master wrecking plan, involving firmware devices. probably behavior is somehow mandatory in NSA injection sequence. or else guy is just another righteous prick
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-04#1514253 << it was eaten by systemd. there is a (last i saw, working) clean fork, 'eudev'. and it looks like phf explains further down in the l0gz.
(trilema) phf: i don't know the details of ken sievers, some lesser part of systemd's master wrecking plan, involving firmware devices. probably behavior is somehow mandatory in NSA injection sequence. or else guy is just another righteous prick
(trilema) phf: ben_vulpes: i was going to link relevant mail message, but udev has been merged into systemd a while ago. gentoo has a fork, called eudev. udev also prompted one of the linus' famous rants, https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/10/3/484
(trilema) phf: well, "libarchive" is already a systemd-ism
(trilema) mircea_popescu: in the sense ubuntu is linux and systemd a demon
(trilema) asciilifeform: ^ this was the non-systemd fork of debian, iirc.
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2016/q2/34 << lel... 'systemd-journald from systemd v213 started creating world readable journals, allowing local users to read sensitive system log entries.'
(trilema) asciilifeform: reads like systemdism
(trilema) mircea_popescu: and the whole discussion re systemd above is quite germane : even "with" this so called "general purpose in the sense of we dunno what exacrtly" computer of today,
(trilema) phf: you have a changing subtrate, changing interfaces. you can hot iron parts while it's at a manageable size and localized, but at some point you start dealing with systemd type situation where the tendrils are inside either the code that you use OR inside the subtrate/interfaces part (i.e. connection to outside world)
(trilema) ben_vulpes: i thought systemd was modeled after windows
(trilema) mircea_popescu: so basically windows is turning into yet-another-systemd ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: 'The inaugural release of UbuntuBSD is now available, which the developers have codenamed "Escape From SystemD", and pairs the Ubuntu userspace with the FreeBSD kernel. ' << l0l!
(trilema) phf: very little thinking is going on, most of so called thinking is integration and regurgitation of past thinking, that trickles from occasional pockets where thinking happened. by the time one integrates that thinking one is disinclined to further think (for one is a ph.d. or whatever at that point). but any question can be grothendieck-ed if you're so inclined, to reveal and remove your systemd's and kdbus's
(trilema) asciilifeform: when i tried the arch, systemd would hose the box ~weekly
(trilema) asciilifeform: danielpbarron: ick systemd
(trilema) mircea_popescu: i still don't get this. all this derpage from the early days of systemd "it makes servers boot faster"
(trilema) asciilifeform: if it is not clear, i am speaking not simply of systemd removal, but dbus et al.
(trilema) asciilifeform: the systemd of emacs.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: i read systemdized and was wtf
(trilema) phf: doesn't have freedesktop/systemd/...
(trilema) adlai: untrained gardner could also build systemd
(trilema) asciilifeform: though the systemd folks are working day and night, for this.
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