Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2017-06-01 | 2017-06-03 →
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1419...0313 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( US KS)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1532...1037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( US KS)
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2435.53, vol: 16169.46593995 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2328.025, vol: 8680.62128 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2327.35006495, vol: 17231.92501498 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2557.530469, vol: 17308.49040000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2423.148, vol: 9548.44559952 | Volume-weighted last average: 2423.86832475
mircea_popescu: << what the label says, within a coupla feet of the thing. no idea what your definition of "porn chicks" is, but the item here discussed is 15 to 30yo female, no further filters.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-02 03:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: whatddayamean 'bed always within physical reach'
BingoBoingo imagines alf "porn chick" construction is a redundant labeling like "covetous Jew"
mircea_popescu: well.,.. some jooz are rich...
BingoBoingo: They still covet, It's in their nature
mircea_popescu: btw, did you see the hebrew hammer ?
BingoBoingo: Not that I remember, but I did see an awesome swarm of bees today.
mircea_popescu: notbad comedy. somewhat in the vein of leslie nielsen's stuff.
BingoBoingo: One very happy contractor is now a few hundred bees richer
BingoBoingo: I may have to carve out the time to see it.
mircea_popescu: i suppose could keep calling the everyone in dnc to "comment on" the thing. sort-of like how fake news / new york times does it...
jurov: radeon opensource driver works decently here. but kernel config alone is not enough, you have to feed it correct firmware as described in $manual, too
BingoBoingo: Well maybe commenter ends up reporting on story in the comments?
deedbot: << Qntra - Trump Deals Blow To International Pantsuit Party With Withdrawal From Paris Accord
deedbot: << Trilema - Qntra (S.QNTR) May 2017 Statement
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "the accord which being quit" ?
mircea_popescu: whole piece needs a re-read, lotta e2l weird in there.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-02 06:48 jurov: radeon opensource driver works decently here. but kernel config alone is not enough, you have to feed it correct firmware as described in $manual, too
asciilifeform: and it's shit blobware, too, vertical screens dun work with acceleration
trinque: appeared to keep working over here
trinque: when I randr'd 90 degrees
trinque: but then there's "radeon" and "radeonsi"
trinque: blobware yes, though. something like 16 fucking firmware files
asciilifeform: it blows my mind that folx consider these somehow 'open'.
asciilifeform: the blobuline nics ditto
trinque: has some like, files to compile and they go zoom in the terminal
trinque: totally hackery
asciilifeform: 'it sits on my front bus and can do whatever it wants and has 400 cores that run fuckknkwswhat, but at least the util for loading up (some) of the cores with liquishit, is open source!!'
trinque: yeah exactly. it's a participatory democracy of a computer, gotta expect to share
asciilifeform: trinque: which radeon did you have ?
asciilifeform: every single one i ever tried, worked poorly or not at all with multiple-vertical-outs
trinque: ah I'm not running multiple vertical screens.
trinque: but rx480
asciilifeform: in other noose, obummer buys 8.1m $ mega-house.
phf: you can buy a patek philippe caliber 89 from christie's for $11m. last time it went for $5m in 2009. at that inflation rate obummer bought a 2009 $4m house, which is a reasonable upper middle for potomac apparatchiks.
mod6: mornin'
phf: i've been to social events at these houses, and they are just glorified mcmansions. i was actually wondering about these mega-houses last time i recently took a trip to Fallingwater. who now among "the wealthy" is building these kaufmann residences that in 100 years time people will want to visit?
phf: oh, i know this area, obama's neighborhood is 5 minutes walking from me, it's all old construction, so not so much a "mega-house" as a large&old dc property (apparently made from real stone!1)
phf: those houses are nifty, because built by sane people until a contractor gets to "renovate" the interior
asciilifeform: phf: i've been inside a bunch of these, but only on embassy expo day
asciilifeform: they feel like houses on home planet ( proper height of ceiling, the correct 100+ y.o. 'old sofa' smell, steam heat, etc )
shinohai lives in 105 yr old house, but revels in the whole "no formaldehyde" smell.
asciilifeform: << gotta ask, why not -- by same logic -- derive inflation rate from usd-btc ?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-02 14:17 phf: you can buy a patek philippe caliber 89 from christie's for $11m. last time it went for $5m in 2009. at that inflation rate obummer bought a 2009 $4m house, which is a reasonable upper middle for potomac apparatchiks.
asciilifeform: it is tempting to think of inflation as a scalar, but it isn't a scalar.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-22 14:05 asciilifeform: << in my eyes, a ~skilled~ art forger is a hero second only to a hypothetical fella who puts an actual bullet through a bilderberger. why, exactly, should i have any sympathy for the folks hitching a ride in the only 100% effective inflation shelter known, at the expense of literally everybody else ?
phf: inflation is a dynamic process, so it's neither a scalar nor not a scalar
asciilifeform: paper-gold is mixed into the market valuation of all-gold, paper-bitcoin (though it only works on bottom half of bell curve...) into price of actual-bitcoin, but art forgers are hunted like terrorists, Because Reasons.
asciilifeform: phf: tensor!111
mircea_popescu: << i'm entirely shocked he didn't divorce.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-02 14:17 phf: you can buy a patek philippe caliber 89 from christie's for $11m. last time it went for $5m in 2009. at that inflation rate obummer bought a 2009 $4m house, which is a reasonable upper middle for potomac apparatchiks.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes because reasons. REASONS == independent, as always.
mircea_popescu: wtf is "corruption" ? people-other-than-usg having control over property!!11
mircea_popescu: wtf is you know, any OTHER crime ? there is no other crime. that's the crime.
phf: maybe they are planning on going for michelle 2020 after all
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how that worked, but it's pretty far out there.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> whole piece needs a re-read, lotta e2l weird in there. << re-read v1
mircea_popescu: "Once again, while Trump the United States a smidge closer to The Great Again, but"
BingoBoingo: ty fxd
mircea_popescu: in other lulz ~nobody cares about : ucr (universidad de costa rica) is this massively dominant player. apparently it has 3`623 non-tenured, 1`726 tenured faculty. the former are bitchin' that they want "the same salary conditions" as the latter, which is very much representative of latino mental simplicity.
mircea_popescu: but the scandal exposed a coupla lulz, such as that the ucr spends 80% (!!!) of its income to pay salaries, and that income is ~500mn a year.
asciilifeform: i had nfi there were 500mn usd in all of cr, not merely the obscure ( i had nfi it existed...) ucr
asciilifeform: from where comes the dough ? usg parked a printing press down there ?
mircea_popescu: costa rica is a rich country dood. above ohio below arizona or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: you do realise that at least half the 50 us states are below average, in the sense most countries actually are doing better, yes ?
asciilifeform: half of'em are nearly empty, but for corn field and rocket base
asciilifeform: so not high bar.
asciilifeform: ( ever look at usa from airplane ..? )
mircea_popescu: so you know, made 50bn gdp, bout same as panama, 4x nicaragua. which is how come all the chicks in strip joints are nigaraguaneans.
asciilifeform: incidentally -- what does cr export ?
mircea_popescu: vacations
asciilifeform: aaah so it's one of those 'rich because that's where money goes to sit on the beach' places.
mircea_popescu: yup. pretty much entirely it.
asciilifeform: still doesn't explain why university. who attends it ? anyone publishes in it ? how does the setup work.
mircea_popescu: "highest level of foreign direct investment per capita of latin maerica", ie, a fine definition of whether you're poor or not is whether you have a gf here holding down a fort.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure, they publish the usual crud. it's where you pick up the girlies, mostly.
asciilifeform: sounds like 50s cuba
asciilifeform: possibly even with the attendant boojum waiting in the wings.
mircea_popescu: << that was on the grounds, ECONOMIX faculty.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-27 02:15 mircea_popescu: his answer ? exito. (success).
mircea_popescu: anyway, they export some ic / medical gear. but plenty of coffee banana etc.
asciilifeform: lol united fruit
mircea_popescu: hey, intel build a plant.
asciilifeform: 'The Intel® Teach Program helps teachers integrate technology into their classrooms to enhance student learning. In Costa Rica, the Intel Teach Program is coordinated in collaboration with the Ministry of Public Education, was implemented by the Omar Dengo Foundation, and now is executed by CECC-SICA.'
asciilifeform: lulzy, 'hold the winblowz fort in the turd world' item
asciilifeform: 'More than 60 percent of K-12 teachers in Costa Rica have participated in this program since the program started in 2000...'
mircea_popescu: they really don't have much of a clue. happy go lucky sort of tree dwellers.
asciilifeform: 'See how the Intel® She Will Connect program is helping women change their lives.' << didjaknow!!
shinohai: so lulzy
asciilifeform: 'On the heels of last year’s closure of chip manufacturer Intel‘s assembly plant in Costa Rica, the company announced Monday that it’s opening a new Client Computing Group (CCG) in Costa Rica. The new unit will be responsible mostly for developing tablets and PCs.' (2015)
asciilifeform: looks like mircea_popescu's intel is a little out of date..
asciilifeform: plant moved to asia. what's left is jerbsprogram
asciilifeform: ( why it remains - i have nfi; perhaps intel exec gurlz to holdthefort etc )
mircea_popescu: lol elon musk quit "forum on job creation" because hey, paris accord was major "job creation" wtf.
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to cr, it's kinda funny. i recall their currency being reasonably stable, but since i've been here it shed about 10% against the dollar. so the natl bank is all "wtf is wrong with you people", put 1bn of the reserve on the market, etc.
mircea_popescu: this re whole "kinda clueless treefolk"
asciilifeform: i'd suppose that mircea_popescu is there for the good weather, not for the company of tree-dwellers
mircea_popescu: why not ? troglodyte female muchly preferable to ustarded female.
mircea_popescu: young people are going to be stupid, this is a given. might as well deal with the naive than with the millitantly idiotic.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja ever determine why in cr 'naive', but in ar 'militant idiotic' ? is the idiocy-ray emitter in antarctica, or wat
mircea_popescu: ah, peronismo.
mircea_popescu: generally speaking, homebrew nationalism is ~worst thing that can happen to a country. way worse than foreign invasion.
asciilifeform: lol, ukrs
mircea_popescu: it's what distinguishes say reddit and to some degree twitter from the average fucktard forum / website. dudes on reddit actually developed some sort of idiotarian self-identity on top of everything else.
mircea_popescu: so they go around you know, "we did it argentina!! sun rise!!!" and inqualifiably dumb shit like that.
asciilifeform: do perons appear in empty vacuum tho
asciilifeform: picture if the ameritourism were to evaporate in cr. how long before it peronizes.
mircea_popescu: dude's epitaph is this : he once claimed that when he took power there were all these sacks of gold and dollars and wealth, "hanging around, clearly being misused -- cuz not used to levantar el pueblo" etc.
mircea_popescu: THAT is how they appear, when there's too much wealth and too little noose for the poor to go with it.
mircea_popescu: exactly how it appeared in moscow, too. had the tzar fucking hung twenty million uppity bitches, starting with half of georgia, there'd have not been any problem.
asciilifeform: ottomans also
mircea_popescu: everyone.
asciilifeform: one tricky bit, afaik, is that the proverbial sacks of gold do not 'levantar el pueblo' under any circumstances at all; instead they immediately grow legs and walk, walk away to a faraway place and never again seen
mircea_popescu: and it's not like they're not asking for it and everything.
mircea_popescu: recall that time when they stomped each other on some field ?
asciilifeform: the ecuador war ?
mircea_popescu would have ordered ALL the participants hung. what did czar do ? apologize ?
mircea_popescu: you don't fucking apologize to the cow herd for IT having stampeded.
mircea_popescu: next fucking time, stay home, or if you come FUCKING BEHAVE
mircea_popescu: filthy bitchez...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the khodynka field poorfucktardfest.
mircea_popescu: anyway, point being they're asking, and if you dun answer then dun be surprised.
asciilifeform: when you have stampedes in the capital, you ( ruler/civ1player ) Have A Problem ; just as d00d with tumour that is large enough to be palpable, has problem
mircea_popescu: unlike tumour, this problem is very approachable.
mircea_popescu: sure, once you have 500`000 dead bodies in a pile it's time to build a new church and beg forgiveness for having let things get this far.
mircea_popescu: but nicholas was just ascending, it wasn't his fucking fault alexander was a faggot.
asciilifeform: unless yer rounding up ~defenseless gypos etc , 500kilocorpse is called 'civil war' and it doesn't come with a guarantee of win
mircea_popescu: 500k idiots who stampede themselves to death vs hussar regiments ? really ?
mircea_popescu: i guess i'm beheading even more people.
asciilifeform: i suppose mircea_popescu is posting from parallel universe where 1917 didn't happen
mircea_popescu: this was 1896. the REASON 1917 happened was that nicholas was a fucktard in 1896.
asciilifeform: i.e. followed the pitchforks-vs-landsknecht dynamic pictured above
mircea_popescu: had he fired all available artillery into the crowd, there'd have been no fucking bs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, exactly opposite.
mircea_popescu: the populace had to have a clear statement of its fault, and punishment comensurate. this is what government is.
mircea_popescu: what he did was, he failed to punish them for their misbehaviour, from which they concluded, quite in the infantile manner of subhumans, that tyhey had done nothing wrong
asciilifeform: incidentally ivan iv did try this exact thing
mircea_popescu: and that there's some room for them to "make judgements" and whatnot.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : didn't work )
mircea_popescu: and i don't seem to recall his problems with the fucking reds.
mircea_popescu: worked fine, what are you talking about.
asciilifeform: from this pov.. worked.
mircea_popescu: well that's the pov.
asciilifeform: the larger point also good one -- any problem ( short of perhaps asteroid ) starts small and spends good chunk of its life cycle in curable phase
mircea_popescu: and the need for the cure is constantly signalled, and the cure always is exactly that : round them all up and hang them.
mircea_popescu: nor is this only the problem of governance. for years before sham ustardian marriage ends in divorce wife begs for some checks, which husband doesn't provide because idiot ; but then really has no one else to blame.
mircea_popescu: before growing up to be stupid, kids spend their childhood begging for some guidance. and so following.
mircea_popescu: fucking "demonstrations" and whatnot. what are they "demonstrating" ? that "oh look, you're not going to drive the tanks through us!11 like you fucking should!!111 awell, i guess you're not fit to rule then huh."
a111: Logged on 2014-01-26 19:37 asciilifeform: just as the chinese replied, in '89, to 'why tanks?', with 'we aren't the u.s., can't afford warehouses full of "humane" riot gear'
mircea_popescu: fuck that retarded deflective shit.
asciilifeform: they passed the exam tho.
asciilifeform: su -- flunked
mircea_popescu: well, su really needed new government. the "socialist" bullshit only runs so far.
mircea_popescu: unlike the eurotards, they got out relatively early, 1 century in.
asciilifeform: not clear, at least to asciilifeform's naked eye, that they 'got out', or that the box even has an out-hole
asciilifeform: ( ru still has crown-as-principle-economic-agent megastate, for instance )
asciilifeform: *principal
mircea_popescu: im really not that familiar
mircea_popescu: but if i had to guess i'd say a larger % of all-wealth-controlled-by-russians belongs to "criminals" and "terrorists" than is the case of the us.
mircea_popescu: which is the ~only criteria of respectability.
asciilifeform: how 'respectable' when most of'em are still l1/l2 of su wot.
mircea_popescu: this per se isn't a problem.
asciilifeform: and it also isn't clear to me why -- even when the corpse really Musted Die -- maggots are somehow 'respectable'
asciilifeform: they eat carrion, yes.
mircea_popescu: but of course they'd be within su wot. that's how these light states work.
mircea_popescu: lemme guess, nietzsche ?
ben_vulpes: that's the quote, yes
ben_vulpes: "perhaps outlawing masculinity is a bad idea?"
mircea_popescu: o i know, let's plead like a little bitch, that'll do something.
mircea_popescu: how about "man ain't interested in your dumb bitch hut, starve."
mircea_popescu: "We are killing masculinity. Maleness in all its forms has been deprecated as an outdated bit of software. Something to be rewritten for the modern world."
mircea_popescu: self important little cunts. what the everloving fuck, "look at me, i live without a roof, WE HAVE DEPRECATED ROOVES!!11"
asciilifeform: for some reason atlases only ever shrug in bad megab00x by ru emigre chix, tho. and not in actual reality.
mircea_popescu: maleness in its you know, male form is doing fucking fine, and doesn'tr care about the stupid tea party.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the tiresome faggots who keedp going "oh mom, i too could be an atlas couldn't i ? i'm tall enough ?" are no fucking object of this discussion.
shinohai: "Y U discriminate against me!!!!!"
mod6: got this FG #2 hooked up to the scope
asciilifeform: mod6: hm?
asciilifeform: ( you want logic analyzer, or at the very minumum : storage scope , for this , not much periodic wave to be had on FG )
mod6: got the probe setup on the out pin. been waiting to try this. just didn't incause I fuck it up.
mod6: *in case
asciilifeform: mod6: put the trigger on clock (CLK) pin
asciilifeform: all signals on the board (other than the 2 coming from rngs ) are in that clock domain
mod6: this scope has a usb port, so i dropped in the USB to see if I can get the output saved on there. gotta rtfm i think
asciilifeform: what do you hope to see on the scope, mod6 ? thing puts out 115200,8,1,noparity
asciilifeform: ( not, as you can already guess, contiguously -- but when there's a byte ready )
mod6: im more... using it as a vehicle to learn how to scope.
mod6: aha, clock has basic predictible pattern.
mod6: 'out' is pretty chatty too though
asciilifeform: try displaying clock and output in parallel
mod6: i do have two probes...
mod6 tries
asciilifeform: ( output has peridic component !! -- the start/stop bits )
asciilifeform: they're why a misbauded FG is nogood as an rng
mircea_popescu: and in other artificial inteligence,
mod6: oh huh!
mod6: i gotta take a pic here i think, but yah, two distinct different wave patterns.
mod6: @20 ns
mod6: sorry for the yuuuge
mircea_popescu: i dunno wtf this is.
mod6: yellow (channel 1) is the clk output; blue (channel 2) is the 'out' output from the fg
mod6: mircea_popescu: just kinda takin a look at things, nothing in particular. educational.
mircea_popescu: so the clock transitions ~0.1ms ; but the output dun seem rightr
mircea_popescu: wtf values are those.
asciilifeform: mod6: your ground is loose
mod6: haha, i dun think im doin it right.
asciilifeform: you're seeing mains hum !!
asciilifeform: ( there are no sinusoids to be had on that board )
mod6: ah.
asciilifeform: to what did you attach the black crocodile ?
mod6: nada. wasn't sure on that.
asciilifeform: this might be kindergarten item , but :
asciilifeform: a voltage is a potential ~difference~
mod6: yah, im extreme n00b at this
asciilifeform: it exists ~between~ two objects
asciilifeform: mod6: you will notice that scope bnc connector has two conductors
asciilifeform: center connects to tip of probe
asciilifeform: shield - to the gnd clip
asciilifeform: mod6: you wouln't leave 1 lead off voltmeter hanging in the air, wouldja? same idea.
mod6: aha, ok
jurov: S.QNTR distributed
mod6: ok, well. huh.
mod6: i've since, just wanna look at the clock, see if i've got it hooked up right. i've got probe on channel one connected to 'clk' pin. probe's crock is attached to a lead coming off 'gnd' pin.
mod6: it's not a square wave tho.
asciilifeform: mod6: post pic ?
mod6: sure
asciilifeform: ( even a very clean clock, if frequency is >1MHz or so, will not look like 'ideal' square when viewed through clip probes on scope. you will see 'ringing' )
asciilifeform: yeah, that'd be it
mod6: ya?!
mod6: decent! thanks, ima see if i can get the 'out' in there too
asciilifeform: get rid of the massive cable / multiple clip-to-cable joints
asciilifeform: if you want to see something closer to the actual signal
asciilifeform: at 14.7456MHz , your cable is a substantial parasitic capacitor ( and inductor )
mod6: yeah, i rigged that up, but im having trouble with the space. i suppose i could elminate the USB-TTL for power and just use 5v from Dr. Meter tho right?
asciilifeform: the effect in your picture is not the power supply's fault
asciilifeform: but very much a physical limitation of your measurement setup. see above.
mod6: gotcha
asciilifeform: another tip : rng shield is an ok place for the gnd clip
asciilifeform: ( it is tied to the ground plane )
mod6: ooh
mod6: ok
asciilifeform: ( you do NOT want a long wire between ground clip and the circuit )
asciilifeform: moar wisdom : the nose of the scope probe, comes off
asciilifeform: you can then use it as a manual sharp-needle-poke
mod6: ah, gotcha
mod6: ok, here's one with both clk & out;
mod6: i used the sheilds for gnd this time, feel like im learning a bit, thanks for the help.
asciilifeform: that looks atrocious
asciilifeform: is the blue input ac-coupled by any chance ?
mod6: i don't know
mod6: does the clk still look ok?
asciilifeform: it is still very loudly mutilated by your cabling but this is not avoidable (without specially made cable)
asciilifeform: it's why you'll find coax jacks on high-end fpga boards
mod6: these probes have this little switch on them. "1x -> 10x"
mod6: they were set to 10x, gonna see if turning 'em down to 1 shows me anything different
asciilifeform: if you set '10x' that turns on voltage divider
mod6: ok makes sense to what im seeing on the screen
asciilifeform: ftr mod6 has much spiffier scope than asciilifeform
asciilifeform: ( it's 1 or 2 models after )
mod6: lol, i simply have no clue what im doing :D
asciilifeform: mod6: after you have the basics , everything else will make sense.
mod6: so i did one more while I was at it:
mod6: clk looks better to me in that case, like I somehow have it dialed in more properly.
mod6: not sure about the 'out'
mod6: wb
asciilifeform: that looks horrid, mod6
asciilifeform: one or more of your grounds is loose.
mod6: lol, ok
mircea_popescu: looks like maybe it's summed up over a sampling interval or such ?
mircea_popescu: do you have a function like that activated ?
mod6: totally could be.
mod6: im just uber n00b on this thing. gotta rtfm.
asciilifeform: mod6: play with the test clip on the scope ( the thing immediately to the right of ch4 bnc jack ) first
asciilifeform: see if you can get it to display the wave pictured in the manual.
mod6: sure, ok. it does seem, that when i clip on to that with the crock, and the probe, it gets square just fine. i read that means that it's "compensated" correctly.
asciilifeform: it's what, 1kHz tho.
asciilifeform: mod6: another tip : when playing with fg & scope/logic analyzer, it is convenient to turn it upside-down and sink the 'teeth' into a breadboard
asciilifeform: then put wires in the breadboard, attached to scope
mod6: ah, ok. can do, i did get a breadboard.
deedbot: << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - 5770 flambé
asciilifeform: holy fuq pete_dushenski , i suppose you've never taken a heat sink off before ?!
asciilifeform: scrape that shit off, put in 'arctic silver' or whatever yer favourite 'toothpaste'
asciilifeform: then screw heat sink back on.
BingoBoingo: Eh, it's pete_dushenski. Peter throw some moly grease on it!
BingoBoingo: After degreasign sink and top of chip package
deedbot: << Qntra - US Branch Of Pantsuit Party Shunning Hillary Rodham-Clinton Amid Blame Trading
BingoBoingo: !!up erlehmann
deedbot: erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes.
erlehmann: dear diary, yesterday a person on IRC asked me if i am jealous after i referred to ethereum as a scam again. jealous, i asked. yes, she answered, jealous of people who invest in cryptocurrencies!
erlehmann: phf i still use the neo2 keyboard layout. it has several advantages over qwert(y|z) for me: 1. less strain put on my hands 2. useless caps lock replaced with another mod key 3. built-in layers for useful unicode 4. compose in the base layout
phf nods
phf: i saw that was posted in 2014, and i was mostly curious if you stuck with it. i used arensito for almost 4 years, but once i started doing corporate work, particularly management work, it became somewhat impractical.
erlehmann: why?
erlehmann: two exes of mine learned neo2 immediately after i explained the concept. one of them was often frustrated because her work computer was running windows and apparently windows + keyboard layout = shitcock
asciilifeform: even if you don't winblowz, remapping keyboards only works well in hardware imho
erlehmann: same for OS X, apparently. my boss told me he tried to use it there and it was a pain due to something i cannot remember.
erlehmann: asciilifeform due to mod keys or what?
asciilifeform: ( sooner or later you will boot into something -- hell, even if only bios setup or rescue disk -- or an ancient lappy on kvm, etc -- that doesn't know about your magic layout )
erlehmann: yeah, so?
erlehmann: i can do qwertz still. on my work laptop i have not even changed the keycaps.
asciilifeform: so then you don't have your layout. ~unless~ you did it in hardware.
phf: well, that was a while ago (i switched back almost a decade ago), but even now more so now i spend a lot of time, working on other people's machines (i.e. developers that are stuck or need help or whatever)
asciilifeform: having to ever go back and forth -- is what nukes the whole 'custom keyboard' thing for many folx (incl. asciilifeform)
phf: yeah, likewise the whole back and forth killed it for me.
erlehmann: asciilifeform i guess you cannot control your computing experience? the answer from the boss of my boss to “can i install linux on the macbook to get a sane keyboard layout” was “got it, you get a thinkpad”
asciilifeform: erlehmann: funnily enough -- today -- i can
asciilifeform: but no longer type enough to make keyboard fiddling worthwhile thing
asciilifeform: most of my time is spent thinking, not pressing keys as-fast-as-possible
erlehmann: well, in my experience it takes max. three weeks to learn a layout.
erlehmann: chatting is something where i prefer to prevent my hands hurting
erlehmann: i suspect the effect is not as notable for other people as for me, but qwertz hurts, neo2 does not.
erlehmann: (after long chats)
erlehmann: i think it is unlikely that a non-self-built keyboard can do most things relevant to daily usage in hardware. especially layers, mod keys and compose.
phf: ascii's approach was to put custom firmware into an old keyboard, so that's half way there
asciilifeform: had to desolder internals and put in new controller
asciilifeform: ( open source, and author sells the pcb, so you don't have to necessarily make the pcb by hand )
erlehmann: asciilifeform what is your opinion of FPGAs in general? shit because complexity? nice because reprogrammable?
asciilifeform: !#s fpga
asciilifeform: !#s xilinx
a111: 131 results for "xilinx",
erlehmann: “there exists an answer” mathematician-face.jpg
asciilifeform: erlehmann: i manufacture and sell a product ( ) with a xilinx cpld in it
erlehmann: for some reason i thought of asciilifeform when i learned about the MNT VA2000 amiga graphics card
asciilifeform: but on the other hand it is a very small cpld, and runs a pretty simple state machine, whose honest function is verifiable by the operator with reasonable effort
asciilifeform: i'd still like to replace it with a civilized fpga for which you don't need a 20GB closed source shitware toolchain
asciilifeform: problem is, THEY DON'T EXIST
erlehmann: market reasons?
asciilifeform: you really gotta read the logs, erlehmann
erlehmann: shit toolchains are endemic in lots of fields it seems
asciilifeform: we've had this particular thread at least 7 times
erlehmann: asciilifeform acknowledged. sorry.
asciilifeform: the history doesn't change.
a111: Logged on 2015-06-17 13:17 asciilifeform: you can pick up a textbook and write a dram controller for fpga from first principles - and it won't work. because, for starters, only a small number of output cells in the chip can function on both rising and falling edge of clock cycle (what 'ddr' means) and only xilinx's closed turd knows where they are in the routing fabric;
a111: Logged on 2014-12-11 01:52 asciilifeform: decimation: notice that all known fpga manufacturers (xilinx, altera, lattice, a few others) have the same business model
a111: Logged on 2016-10-03 13:35 asciilifeform: mepian: << please read the xilinx threads .
erlehmann: i once met rms at a conference and asked him about viability of free hardware. his answer was along the lines of 1. apparently non-free hardware has worked for decades 2. whoever makes your board can still subvert your trustworthy design, you can't check that 3. maybe if we have star-trek-style replicators one day, hahaha
asciilifeform: latest twist was that some d00dz ~partially~ reversed lattice's toolchain. but their shit ~doesn't work,
a111: Logged on 2017-01-16 23:36 asciilifeform: leaving entirely aside the question of whether ice40 can in fact be made to do anything useful with the 'open' toolchain discussed earlier, or whether a toolchain that required clang, llvm, and ten other poetteringesque abortions is 'open'
asciilifeform: erlehmann: didja ask him what specifically it would mean to 'subvert' an fpga ahead of time (i.e. when you have no idea what will be loaded into it, and into what cells in particular ) ?
erlehmann: as far as i can remember, we did not talk about fpga. his example was some company creating your board and not you.
erlehmann: thus the remark with the star trek replicators, which he likened to compilers. just do it yourself.
erlehmann: one could probably extend david wheeler's diverse double compiling to any type of tool if sufficiently paranoid
erlehmann: asciilifeform if you are interested, i suggest to email rms yourself. he answers.
asciilifeform: not when i wrote !
erlehmann: last time i wrote him it was because of this
erlehmann: > A friend once asked me to watch a video with her that she was going to display on her computer using Netflix. I declined, saying that Netflix was such a threat to freedom that I felt uncomfortable with promoting its use in this way.
asciilifeform: !!up erlehmann
deedbot: erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes.
erlehmann: and rms was like “no, it was not flirting, i am very sure”
erlehmann: as a free-software enthusiast myself, i have managed to experience many invitations to “netflix and chill” entirely without netflix. freedoms preserved!
erlehmann: asciilifeform i like your project names
erlehmann: sufficiently off-putting for hipsters
erlehmann: phf does it still exist? if so, where?
phf: (busy irl one sec)
erlehmann: ah funny, it does not work with a slash at the end
erlehmann: apparently it does not come from anywhere in this graphic
shinohai: Perhaps /patches is static page ?
phf: i actually patched it in the offline, but haven't had a chance to update the deployment
erlehmann: also, makefiles. fail.
phf: erlehmann: so the arrow from nowhere basically means that the patch is broken, because it requires an antecedent that's missing
erlehmann: phf that makes … too much sense. thanks.
erlehmann: asciilifeform do you have an opinion on DJB redo? or maybe even a simpler design? i would only trust my own implementation and MAYBE the one from jonathan de boyne pollard (although he requires a C++ compiler as a dependency, lol)
phf: there's a handful of those, for example in the experimental there's three patches from polarbeard, a guy who joined as we were regriding a bunch of shit, so he had to update his patches a bunch of times and then gave up. nobody cared to reintegrate his patches properly yet
phf: also my own phf-shiva-swank is broken somehow, probably because i was pressing with not "real" v tooling. actually i need to fix that..
erlehmann: unreal tooling?
phf: imaginary tooling
erlehmann: v looks like a nice approach as far as i can see (and is the reason i chose to join #trilema), but as i commented, i suspect there exist parser differentials
erlehmann: if i ever get around to making my own v toolchain (probably in bourne shell, for portability and clarity), i'll address that of course.
phf: for sure, btcbase is probably the most aggressive, because there's a very restricted state machine for parsing, but there's still some ambiguity in recognition that's an artifact of diff/patch being dodgy
phf: (fwiw it has complete understanding of patch, so it can also do a press in memory, e.g.
erlehmann: well, vdiff would never be possible if diff and patch were definite about their inputs
erlehmann: what does “in memory” mean?
phf: it does an equivalent of patch, but without calling out to c programs and without the result (or intermediate steps) touching the file system at any point
phf: so hitting runs patch algorithm on a series of vdiffs
phf: well that was a bad example because the file is all genesis
erlehmann: that looks weird here
phf: screenshot?
erlehmann: tables are hard, let's go shopping?
phf: hmm, k. i haven't paid much attention to that styling, because i don't think anyone's using it, including myself. the press part definitely needs more ux work
erlehmann: phf the reasons seems to be that every single line on the right side is wrapped in <pre> and <span>
phf: so the way it should really be solved is that i need to better understand colorizing code (which i lifted from elsewhere) so that i can wrap the whole thing in pre and just format it without tables by doing <blame ...> <lineno ...> <line>
phf: but that makes copy pasting harder (you can't just select a chunk, because it now includes line numbers and blame)
erlehmann: phf fix is easy
phf: like?
phf: (fwiw this table based approach also looks shitty in lynx)
erlehmann: phf add following CSS to stylesheet: pre { margin-bottom: 0; }
asciilifeform: !!up erlehmann
deedbot: erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes.
erlehmann: phf i hope this change flies without a vpatch, should be evident it is not malicious
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 00:35 erlehmann: asciilifeform do you have an opinion on DJB redo? or maybe even a simpler design? i would only trust my own implementation and MAYBE the one from jonathan de boyne pollard (although he requires a C++ compiler as a dependency, lol)
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:12 mircea_popescu: i suspect the idea is that systems which require something like make are broken anyway.
asciilifeform: << v is -- properly considered -- an abstract concept, quite divorceable from the abominations of gnudiff/patch and gpg
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 00:36 phf: also my own phf-shiva-swank is broken somehow, probably because i was pressing with not "real" v tooling. actually i need to fix that..
erlehmann: asciilifeform so which build system(s) do you use? any at all?
asciilifeform: traditional make
asciilifeform: lately -- gprbuild
phf: erlehmann: try it now
asciilifeform: i gotta admit : i don't consider the problem to be a very interesting one
erlehmann: phf looks better
asciilifeform: and am quite happy to have entire build process repeat every single time the button is pushed
asciilifeform: if it means simplicity+reliability
asciilifeform: trick is : i don't believe in large programs.
phf: also ascii grew up with 2 hour builds anyway..
asciilifeform: if your program is large, and build time is a bottleneck : Your Program Is Wrong
asciilifeform: the one possible exception might be ~massive~ fpga floor layouts
asciilifeform: but i do not often deal in those.
asciilifeform: and make systems do NOTHING to help there anyway
asciilifeform: because the thing is monolithic
erlehmann: i also consider building stuff not very interesting. but redo is so simple that it can be implemented in <250 lines of shell script.
asciilifeform: i dun think i've ever written anything where the ~naked~ build -- no 'intelligence' -- would be >250 ln of bash
erlehmann: not bash
erlehmann: bourne shell
erlehmann: i consider bash an abomination
asciilifeform: i consider system lacking tab-completion to be unusable
erlehmann: relevant how?
asciilifeform: well, naked 'sh'
erlehmann: rlwrap sh then
asciilifeform: not same
asciilifeform: wants explicit word lists etc
erlehmann: whatever, i use rc shell for day to day work. but sh is portable and bash is not.
erlehmann: rc shell grammar is listed on the man page. very small. nice. monkey like.
asciilifeform: i'll use a tabcompleteless shell after i start shitting in holes in the ground.
asciilifeform: and wearing bear skin.
erlehmann: regarding redo: needing dependencies is not limited to compiling programs. datasets are also something. i build my website with redo. i have managed converted media files with redo. i would not want to wait hours for the re-encoding of each file every time i rebuild a web site.
asciilifeform: sounds potentially handy.
phf: when you have a hammer
erlehmann: as the saying goes in german: wenn du einen hammer hast, kannst du die ganze welt nageln!
erlehmann: i think the main reason for me implementing and using redo is that the scripts work fine without all the logic. it is just an optimization.
phf: does djb have a working redo implementation or it's just a concept paper?
erlehmann: i suspect he has at least a prototype, but he has never published it. reason: i found dofiles in some stuff about elliptic curves.
erlehmann: i had two interactions with djb regarding that
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:17 asciilifeform: in recent sads, 'Our batch prime-generation algorithm suggests that, to help reduce energy consumption and protect the environment, all users of RSA—including users of traditional pre-quantum RSA—should delegate their key-generation computa- tions to NIST or another trusted third party. This speed improvement would also allow users to generate new RSA keys and erase old RSA keys more frequently, limiting the damage of key theft.'
erlehmann: first: “where is your redo implementation?”, i believe his answer was like “has to be cleaned up before release” or something before i stupidly decided to come back later bcause he was answering crypto questions
erlehmann: second: “i have written a redo implementation, does it work correctly?”, i again lost him. he suggested to meet at a place at a time during the conference and i thought i knew the place but apparently i erred because there was no place with the name i thought he had said.
erlehmann: phf if you want to learn about redo, i suggest to: 1. read djb's notes. 2. read and my man page 3. avoid apenwarr's unmaintained implementation (it is the only one that got some popularity, but massively shitty)
erlehmann: and by ”massively shitty” i mean apenwarr used sqlite because “filesystem is slow of course”. turns out 300 lines of shell script are faster than more than double that amount of python if you actually benchmark and not talk out of your own ass.
erlehmann: in my opinion, having python and sqlites as dependencies is a massive no-go for a build system.
erlehmann: maximum bloat
erlehmann: phf i believe redo is an unpolished gem. sadly, many people implement it ALMOST correctly and then do something stupid
erlehmann: asciilifeform for a website case, see some output of redo-dot(1)
erlehmann: it is a rendering of dependencies behind
asciilifeform: erlehmann: i have nfi what to make of djb at this point. phuctor is the world's largest public showcase of his 'smooth parts of integers' algo, but he refused -- repeatedly -- to answer main re same. and now he's signed his name to a paper full of howlers, e.g. 'let usg nist generate your private key'
asciilifeform: *answer mail re
erlehmann: djb also never answered my mail regarding redo
erlehmann: but he seems responsive in person
erlehmann: i think it is like fefe said: a) tenure b) does not care
erlehmann: i believed the suggestion to let NIST generate your private key was sarcasm
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 18:37 asciilifeform: 'Generating large amounts of truly random data is expensive. Fortunately, truly random data can be simulated by pseudorandom data produced by a stream cipher from a much smaller key. (Even better, slight deficiencies in the randomness of the cipher key do not compromise security.) The literature contains several scalable ciphers....' -- djb et al
asciilifeform: also joke ?
erlehmann: but then again i was sceptical of weev's aryan awakening at first as well
asciilifeform: he wrote ~entire paper~ on subj
asciilifeform: advocating the ~expanded~ use of prngs.
asciilifeform: can you picture a renowned surgeon suddenly advocating bloodletting ?
asciilifeform: the taking of antimony pill ?
asciilifeform: extracting the Stone of Folly ?
erlehmann: bloodletting, yes. there are rare diseases where it can work:
erlehmann: i have no interest in arguing about djb's merits tbh
erlehmann: just redo
erlehmann: i come from imageboard culture, where discussions only devolved into shitting on each other if a person was assuming a name
asciilifeform: we don't do 'ideas have own merits'.
asciilifeform: idea is not separable from the originator.
asciilifeform: the notion that it is separable, is a historic mistake.
erlehmann: often not, yes. to understand why URbit is designed in such an idiosyncratic way, i always suggest to read unqualified reservations first.
phf: !!up erlehmann
deedbot: erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes.
erlehmann: however, having a single command in a build script that says “rebuild the target, then rebuild the current target” seems trivial in comparison.
erlehmann: also non-existence dependencies. yeah, i read it at djb's website, but if his implementation does not exist (not published = not existing in practical terms), i don't care about his opinions regarding that.
asciilifeform: erlehmann: i followed the man's mathematical work ( and made extensive use of it ) which is why i found it disheartening to watch his intellectual honesty evaporate and the quality of said work, falling through the floor. but his solution to ~nonproblem does not pique my interest, i admit
erlehmann: asciilifeform i have probably done more work on automatically capturing non-existence dependencies in real-world usecases (which seems also trivial, in retrospect) – so is it now my idea? why should i care what the guy says if he does not followup with code?
erlehmann: btw, most problem's do not feel interesting to me and programming is not fun.
erlehmann: programming (to me) is a blue collar job, like taking out the trash.
erlehmann: wait, no, not taking out the trash. whatever it is called when they pick up trash cans.
erlehmann: sorry, am sleepy
erlehmann: it seems that it is not for other people.
erlehmann: at least i am not aware of garbagemen having groupies
erlehmann: asciilifeform i think one of the reasons why i thought it was satire was “Make RSA Great Again”
asciilifeform: erlehmann: funny also that you mention urbit: see thread,
a111: Logged on 2016-08-18 19:00 asciilifeform: 1 - << the sale
erlehmann: i know that
erlehmann: i agree with your assessment of urbit btw
erlehmann: broken foundations
asciilifeform: i bring it up because it was another d00d who advocated 1 set of principles : and implemented a very other in code
asciilifeform: ( mr. mold advocated for 'patchwork states', which were -- best as anyone could tell -- a miraculous resurrection of 16th c. italian provinces, somehow balanced in mutual non-nukeability . but in 'urbit' he implemented a reich, with central control and total dependence on the 'palace' )
erlehmann: oh, that. well, i would argue the hints in hoon are enough to discount that stuff.
erlehmann: or, for that matter, the silent bugfixing of nock 5k … without adjusting the temperature.
phf: his concept of jets sort of reminds me of lisp VOPs, with similar failure modes. vops originally were supposed to abstract a lisp machine cpu on traditional hardware, so that, say, addition vop adds all the assembler overhead of typechecking etc. in reality it turned into an everything and kitchen sink way of adding arbitrary assembler to the system
asciilifeform: it is more difficult to count the places where he did ~not~ commit an atrocity, than the atrocities.
erlehmann: i am of the impression that any change to nock 5k should have become nock 4k, if goldbug were following his self-proclaimed principles, correct?
phf: for some reason i always thought mr mold was a monarchist
asciilifeform: he was a 'multi', if you will, monarchist
asciilifeform: 'let's have many small monarchies'
erlehmann: funnily enough, my incomplete nock 5k implementation in sed(1) was a rough transliteration of the nock 5k spec
erlehmann: just to illustrate you can get by with search-and-replace if your spec looks like that
erlehmann: turns out changing the order of reduction rules is a problem in that case
asciilifeform: it not only worked, but -- afaik -- remains the only 'optimizing' compiler of nock to x86
asciilifeform: ( free ride on top of sbcl ! )
asciilifeform: of course 'nock' is merely s-k calculus with 'serial number sawed off'
asciilifeform: gotta luvv how d00d took the credit for s-k calculus
asciilifeform: !!up erlehmann
deedbot: erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes.
erlehmann: asciilifeform my implementation has the questionable benefit of seeing each step of the reduction rules being applied. screenshot:
phf: probably can be done with ascii's version by dropping a format somewhere inside mk-op
erlehmann: probably
erlehmann: but it comes naturally when you are working with sed(1)
erlehmann: the beginning of nock.sed has a label “: reduce” and a single “p” command (“print the current pattern space”)
erlehmann: as far as i can remember, i actually used it for debugging
erlehmann: that being said, back to the topic at hand: intellectual dishonesty
phf: (actually i'm not getting the same result from ascii's version as you do in your evaluator, but i don't want to devote any more time to it)
erlehmann: asciilifeform how long did it take you to discover that urbit was built on sand? less than a year probably, going from the date on the blog post.
asciilifeform: erlehmann: before release
asciilifeform: ( i found his repo prior to any public mention thereof )
erlehmann: asciilifeform why then buy a dukedom?
asciilifeform: i didn't !
asciilifeform: he gave it to me
erlehmann: ah, for decrement
erlehmann: right?
asciilifeform: it was why i wrote the nocktron
erlehmann: i remember that blog post i think
erlehmann: where he asked people to decrement with only addition
erlehmann: a simple task, really. and one i have used to mock the workings of nock (heh)
asciilifeform: was elementary once you realize it's a ripoff of s-k
erlehmann: phf please do not devote time to debugging. but is the result of nock([57 [4 [0 1]]]) NOT 58?
erlehmann: asciilifeform maybe that is it why it is nock 5K!
erlehmann: “5K” looks like “SK”
erlehmann: in 133t
asciilifeform: pretty lulzy , erlehmann is not the first to assume that asciilifeform bought something from urbit
asciilifeform: in actuality the 'dukedoms' were handed out like candy,
phf: no idea, nock(..) doesn't work, so i did a substitution to *[57 [4 [0 1]]] and it gave me 1
asciilifeform: iirc no fewer than 27, right off the bat
asciilifeform: then a bunch more, for 'sponsors'
asciilifeform: and 'investors' etc.
erlehmann: asciilifeform my fault. i should have assumed differently.
erlehmann: especially since i had followed the urbit story at that time
erlehmann: and then lost interest quickly
asciilifeform: iirc today he is selling 1/256th of'em
asciilifeform: for 500usd ea.
asciilifeform: but i have nfi who -- if anyone -- buys
phf: it's a pretty standard marketing tactic: give out a bunch of stuff to high profile people, make the rest buy it on the assumption that "such and such bought"
asciilifeform: phf: possibly this ; or possibly the cockroaches in his head decided , entirely arbitrarily, to do it, for no discernible logic at all
phf: in a degenerate case this is also how scams work "everyone here already bought, what are you waiting for"
asciilifeform: but it ended up as a fairly standard 'altcoin scam', yes
erlehmann: on the other hand, i successfully used “see, this guy sold his dukedom in 2013” as argument to convince someone that urbit is of no use
erlehmann: oh, but it has not ended yet! i am sure there can be at least one other unlaunch and relaunch
erlehmann: i must admit moldbug is pretty good at creating memetic hazards
asciilifeform: like many other american hucksters ( e.g. joseph smith ..) he is mainly good at scavenging & repackaging old crackpotteries
asciilifeform: with 'new flavour'
asciilifeform: old wine; new bottle.
erlehmann: my worst urbit moment: after i read some hoon language code i started to understand it. immediately decided to no longer look at the stuff.
erlehmann: like, not the code. but i started to understand hoon digraphs.
asciilifeform: my least nonsensical hypothesis is that thiel funded urbit (yes) to make a half-hearted play at 'embrace&extinguish'ing bitcoin
erlehmann: and what it should do.
erlehmann: and where the impedance mismatches came from.
erlehmann: reaction: when moldbuggery starts making sense, stop looking at it.
erlehmann: asciilifeform how should urbit ever affect bitcoin?
asciilifeform: idea was, by replacing
asciilifeform: with a centrally-controlled pseudobitcoin
asciilifeform: just like today's , e.g., 'ethereum' etc.
erlehmann: i always thought it piggybacked on bitcoins marketing.
asciilifeform: was from the (public) beginning 'we're like bitcoin, but with censorship, so When They Shoot The Bitcoinists, we'll live'
erlehmann: ah yes
erlehmann: “this is how bitcoin dies” and “we'll make our system so the state can censor everything with ease”
erlehmann: “if the above makes sense to you, do not attempt revolution, sit in your chair and await certain death”
erlehmann: classic moldbug
asciilifeform: d00d consistently advocated 'sit in your chair, resistance is futile'
asciilifeform: why he even bothered to write -- remained a mystery to me
erlehmann: for some people it brings ease
asciilifeform: that kind of 'ease' is why we have locking doors in shithouses
asciilifeform: best done in private.
asciilifeform: whereas shitting in public, is frowned upon by civilized folx.
erlehmann: in the end he got paid for that
asciilifeform: 30 pieces of silver!111
asciilifeform: esr , recall , also was 'well-paid' quisling,
erlehmann: a guy i know told me he put 600€ in ETH and 400€ in BTC. without a concrete plan, of course.
asciilifeform: !#s surprised by wealth
a111: 11 results for "surprised by wealth",
asciilifeform: today esr begs for spare change.
erlehmann: i thought a bit and decided that person would probably eat shit if it promised riches.
asciilifeform: in the end such folx invariably eatshit for free.
asciilifeform: and enough of it -- to pop.
asciilifeform: because a shit-eater -- rich, or poor -- is still a shit-eater.
asciilifeform: !!up erlehmann
deedbot: erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes.
erlehmann: i knew about the patreon page and thought he was just unemployable maybe?
asciilifeform: ever meet him in meatspace ?
erlehmann: but apparently i do not know my history
erlehmann: nope. should i?
asciilifeform: i've seen him speak in public
erlehmann: like, for the experience?
asciilifeform: he prefaces always with 20+min of 'if you have a computer, you have relied on Things That I Wrote' etc various nonsense re own mega-significance
erlehmann: rms is pretty charismatic btw. would meet again, even if i can guess i will not learn much.
erlehmann: i sometimes tell that to hipsters.
erlehmann: if you have GNOME 3, you have software on your computer that i wrote as a joke
asciilifeform: wouldya believe i have 0 gnomes here.
asciilifeform: of any ver.
erlehmann: reason: i wrote a vintage filter for GNOME 3 when i discovered their screenshot app has a postprocessing step. i submitted patch and one person saw it as the garbage it was intended as, but then others were like WHAT A COOL EASTER EGG MERGE.
erlehmann: if i was sufficiently bored, i would do the same to systemd
asciilifeform: point re esr, is that he agreed to work as an ideological judas goat to counter rms
erlehmann: asciilifeform i also have no gnomes.
asciilifeform: and was handsomely paid
asciilifeform: but somehow 100% of the money 'evaporated' in ~decade.
erlehmann: judas goat, that is harsh. and to the point.
erlehmann: open source : free software :: “new wave” : punk
erlehmann: make the culture palatable to the businesspeople
asciilifeform: the 'embrace & extinguish' thing. it worked.
asciilifeform: you can only get ~actual~ linux today if you make it with own hands. and it takes about a month to go from 0 to a usable box.
asciilifeform: ( and if you haven't been doing it for ~decade+, you generally can't do it. at. all. )
asciilifeform: aaaand even after you handcraft the gentoo, with bare hands and sewing needle, you still gotta 'police' the thing constantly, and keep out the poetteringisms that continuously want to build one another, and you have to swear off maybe half of all 'modern' proggies
asciilifeform: e.g. graphical browsers ( 'chromium', say, insists on dbus )
asciilifeform: and then you get a recent gcc and find that it 'optimizes' out safety checks so that exploits can work.
asciilifeform: or that glibc imports drepper's 0days for you
asciilifeform: ( and prohibits static linking )
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 19:23 mircea_popescu: which i suppose warrants a general warning : DO NOT UPGRADE YOUR GCC TO 5.0! SAVE YOUR COPIES OF 4.X AND PRIOR!
asciilifeform: every time you sit down and fight a month-long rear guard battle just to keep your box ~usable -- thank esr & co.
asciilifeform: !#s glibc
asciilifeform: ^ yer in for a treat.
asciilifeform: do read the logs.
erlehmann: i don't get the hate against optimizing c compilers at all
erlehmann: if you don't like undefined behaviour, don't write undefined behaviour
asciilifeform: you can't actually write a nontrivial c proggy without undefined behaviour.
asciilifeform: ( e.g. integer overflow IS UNDEFINED in c )
asciilifeform: and UNTRAPPABLE
asciilifeform: on top of this, gcc5 happily removes , e.g., memset
phf: kek "don't write undefined behavior"
erlehmann: asciilifeform do you mean you need integer overflow or that it is difficult to check for it?
asciilifeform: erlehmann: the fact that the result of overflow is literally undefined in c !
asciilifeform: the thing is allowed, in theory, to catch fire, crash, substitute random number, whichever.
asciilifeform: format the disk.
asciilifeform: anything at all.
erlehmann: i see it as a kind of type annotation
erlehmann: allowing the compiler to infer that this does not happen, ever
erlehmann: during normal operation
asciilifeform: whereas ~100% of all nontrivial c proggies rely on modular arithmetic via overflow, somewhere.
asciilifeform: and the compiler cannot possibly infer this.
asciilifeform: ( it is physically impossible )
erlehmann: so i guess whoever hates on undefined behavior hates some kinds of typing
asciilifeform: the basic idiocy of c world is that there is permitted to exist a gap between written standard and the actual implementation programs rely on
asciilifeform: and malicious idiots can break a compiler, while still technically not violating the standard,
asciilifeform: but at the same time subtly (or not subtly) breaking existing code,
asciilifeform: in such a way as to judas goat the authors of said code to rewrite it such that it DEMANDS the new 'improved' compiler.
asciilifeform: this is what the gcc5 folks spend their time doing.
asciilifeform: and llvm team likewise
asciilifeform: (tentacles of same octopus)
asciilifeform: it is called 'embrace & extinguish' and was a method pioneered by microshit.
asciilifeform: in 1990s.
phf: c standard is written with an assumption of a "c machine", which in turn is entirely undefined
asciilifeform: it works -- on the unprepared.
phf: so you bring all your assumptions of what c machine is with you, and then map a "standard" on top
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 02:46 asciilifeform: the basic idiocy of c world is that there is permitted to exist a gap between written standard and the actual implementation programs rely on
erlehmann: “avoid undefined behaviour” can mean “avoid C”
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 02:48 phf: c standard is written with an assumption of a "c machine", which in turn is entirely undefined
erlehmann: asciilifeform how far along are you in implementing sane foundations for sane personal computing?
erlehmann: i assume FUCKGOATS does not help here?
erlehmann: unless you consider it sane
erlehmann: (and give me reason to)
phf: !!up erlehmann
deedbot: erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes.
phf: i have nothing else to add to this conversation, i am though playing "have you heard this eurodance track" game with girl, where i play something that ~everyone~ danced to in the 90s, but didn't survive the test of time and see if she heard it
phf: like masterboy or mr. president or snap!
phf: !!up erlehmann
deedbot: erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes.
erlehmann: who is girl and what are the rules of the game?
phf: there are no rules. she doesn't recognize most of the tracks and get indignant because "i love the 90s!1" but of course through the prism of whatever survived into the early 2000s
phf: the result brings me great amusement
erlehmann: i registered with deedbot. so what changes now?
phf: !!rate erlehmann 1 new blood
erlehmann: phf have you ever played “digital – a love story”? apparently christine love is too young, so she pieced together how 1989 looked through –
phf: !!v 26D4E4DB84B37942E130111DD744601EE4E373EFB0AC035843397D2B715AE49A
deedbot: phf rated erlehmann 1 << new blood
phf: erlehmann: now you can /msg deedbot !!up and after decoding a challenge response send it back with /msg deedbot !!v <response> you'll be permanently upped while you're connected to services anyway
phf: *connected to irc
erlehmann: nice
erlehmann: does it have other functions useful for me in my current state?
erlehmann: in a channel i administered we had a ὀστρακισμός done by bot
erlehmann: if you pissed of a minority of users, a ban happened
erlehmann: worked until the person hosting the bot killed it
erlehmann: and by “worked” i mean: no one complained that anyone should be kicked out
erlehmann: because it was self-evident
erlehmann: if you got at least 3 people representing at least 33% of voting populace, exile!
erlehmann: > Ostracism was crucially different from Athenian law at the time; there was no charge, and no defence could be mounted by the person expelled. The two stages of the procedure ran in the reverse order from that used under almost any trial system — here it is as if a jury are first asked "Do you want to find someone guilty?", and subsequently asked "Whom do you wish to accuse?"
phf: well, your current state is that you can talk at will
phf: there's no "democracy", you're in deedbot's level 2 web of trust through my rating. there's a handful of useful people in l1 that can at some point decide that you shouldn't really speak anymore. that's about it. if you ever become useful, you can get into l1. thus the s/r is maintained
phf: !!gettrust erlehmann
deedbot: L1: 1, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
phf: err
erlehmann: wot connectivity i assume?
phf: !!gettrust deedbot erlehmann
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
erlehmann: and L2 is amazon style recommendation?
erlehmann: what is L1/L2?
phf: distance, l1 is whatever's immediately rated, l2 is whatever's rated by your rates. an informal way to establish connectivity
phf: ratees?
phf: there's a handy visualizer, but i've no idea what frequency it runs at
erlehmann: !!rate deedbot 1 Most likely a bot.
deedbot: You must be registered.
phf: you gotta !!up yourself properly first
phf: !!down erlehmann
phf: actually i'm not sure why that should be the case..
phf: !!up herbijudlestoids
deedbot: herbijudlestoids voiced for 30 minutes.
herbijudlestoids: whats crackin homeslices
herbijudlestoids: thanks phf
herbijudlestoids: thought I'd drop in and check on the crazies, I see things have changed dramatically
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: Have you found any new markets where I can take your money?
herbijudlestoids: BingoBoingo!
herbijudlestoids: do you still suck at chess? :D
BingoBoingo: No idea. Haven't played since I sobered up.
herbijudlestoids: you sobered up?
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