Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2021-08-29 | 2021-08-31 →
punkman: "$4.5 million stolen from their xSNX contract. Three months ago this team lost $24 million - in the same token, to the same attack technique. At the time, we wrote;“XToken is a quality protocol”. Now we’re not so sure."
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-10 11:00:15 asciilifeform: i.e. the creator of whatever supposed-bug enables the 'ohnoez $xxx mil is gone' (and notice how always reported as an imaginary usd loss, RIAA-style!)
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $48172.8
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
watchglass: : Could not connect!
watchglass: : Could not connect!
watchglass: : Could not connect!
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.116s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=698291
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.171s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
watchglass: : Alive: (0.093s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=698291 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.242s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
watchglass: : Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=698291
watchglass: : Alive: (0.296s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.331s) V=88888 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
watchglass: : Alive: (0.369s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.370s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.662s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.817s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291 (Operator: asciilifeform)
billymg: asciilifeform: so i found this overlay which has an ebuild for chromium that makes dbus optional, but this depends on the atk use flag, and if disabled, no dbus, but then wants to use gtk3
watchglass: : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length! (Operator: jurov)
asciilifeform: billymg: didja try w/ --nodeps ?
billymg: not yet
watchglass: : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
asciilifeform: ( simply ignores USE flags )
asciilifeform: or, rather, ignores the deps hardcoded into the port
asciilifeform: if a given item actually linked against, naturally compile will barf
billymg: trying now
billymg: first with upstream latest
billymg: then i'll try his custom ebuild
billymg: i keep forgetting about the --nodeps strategy
asciilifeform: billymg: it's arduous, but apparently (likely for this reason) worx
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 21:18:06 asciilifeform: this stage is necessary because like certain species of vampire bat, must lull the victim with flapping of wings, anaesthesize prior to bite -- if e.g. 'chromium' ~actually refused to start~ w/out e.g. dbus, someone might conceivably fix.
billymg: asciilifeform: a warning came up in the build about kernel config USER_NS, which i do not have set. should i enable that?
asciilifeform: $ zcat /proc/config.gz | grep USER_NS
asciilifeform: # CONFIG_USER_NS is not set
asciilifeform: ^ on the box asciilifeform is posting from
billymg: asciilifeform: thanks
asciilifeform has nfi what that knob does
billymg: asciilifeform: btw i first tried looking at my rockchip's kernel config but couldn't find it anywhere
billymg: not at /proc/config.gz, not in /boot
billymg: couldn't run sudo modprobe configs
billymg: the warning, if curious, was "USER_NS is required for sandbox to work"
billymg: asciilifeform: been --nodeps'ing and manually installing missing deps but finally may have hit a wall with 'atk-bridge-2.0' which is part of app-accessibility/at-spi2-atk
asciilifeform: billymg: what proggy this one is for ?
billymg: chromium
asciilifeform: what happens when put in mask list ?
billymg: which?
asciilifeform: app-accessibility/at-spi2-atk
billymg: app-accessibility/at-spi2-atk already masked in your crapolade file
asciilifeform: so where's the wall ? chromium stops at ./configure ? ( post eggog ? )
asciilifeform not tried, claims : 'NOP implementation of atk-bridge, so gtk+3 can be used without dbus dependencies'
billymg: asciilifeform: interesting, so reason gtk+3 is banned is because it brings in dbus?
asciilifeform: correct
billymg: ok, i might try that NOP solution then
asciilifeform: may be worth to test the above item, aha
asciilifeform: there's several proggies which cannot be installed on asciilifeform-flavoured gentoo on acct of gtk3 ban
billymg: asciilifeform: it seems like there are enough people out there not wanting dbus/systemd
asciilifeform: enuff to find occasional patch. not enuff to maintain a clean gentoo unfortunately.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 14:53:47 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's verdict from his recent experiments is that yes -- it ~is~ possible to bake a 'gentoo as it was in 2007' 100% working item, outta the current morass. but not trivially, and to keep it functioning is full-time work for at least 2 people.
billymg: i've seen multiple custom overlays, people filing issues with popular programs requesting builds that don't require dbus, etc.
asciilifeform: aha. most folx stop at 'this one install sorta worked for me' stage tho.
billymg: seems if they knew how to talk to eachother and organize could work on maintaining ONE custom overlay that did what's needed
asciilifeform: well not overlay, but ideally wholesale fork of gentoo. incl. banishment of gcc5+, python3, etc
billymg: asciilifeform: what do you suppose is the reason there isn't a project like this already?
asciilifeform: billymg: see linked thrd. it's fulltime work for 2+ people, these people don't exist.
asciilifeform: occasional 'nights/weekends' as often happens aint enuff.
billymg: but i've seen more than 2 people, perhaps dozen, that want
asciilifeform: 'wanting' does 0.
asciilifeform: only doing does anything.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-11-15 asciilifeform: 'The whole idea that anything can be so "shared" as to have no value in itself is not a problem if the rest of the world ensures that nobody _is_ starving or needing money. For young people who have parents who pay for them or student grants or loans and basically have yet to figure out that it costs a hell of a lot of money to live in a highly advanced society, this is not such a bad idea. Grow up, graduate,
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-11-15 asciilifeform: marry, start a family, buy a house, have an accident, get seriously ill for a while, or a number of other very expensive things people actually do all the time, and the value of your work starts to get very real and concrete to you, at which point giving away things to be "nice" to some "community" which turns out not to be "nice" _enough_ in return that you will actually stay alive, is no longer an option. Al
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-11-15 asciilifeform: l of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that people take for granted is hard to
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-11-15 asciilifeform: impossible.'
signpost: billymg: were ya not even here when I genesis'd an entire self-building ebuild tree?
signpost: precisely zero people cared.
billymg: signpost: i was around for cuntoo, even tried doing something with it, but at that point had too little experience to really know what i was doing
signpost: same occurred when I put together the compiler bootstrap.
billymg: also had ft job at the time
signpost: not bitching about it, just saying that as asciilifeform says, isn't really a hobby
signpost doubts the entire "build it and they will come" algo, having seen it fail a shameful number of times, ought've learned by first or second, haha
asciilifeform: compiler/kernel/shell aint nuffin. but also difficult to get past 'but no way in hell will there be www browser' and the fact that holding back the shitflood is fulltime work.
asciilifeform: generations of idjit 'just-wanters' ceded much key territory to the enemy.
signpost: yep. as I see it now, the move is a very small core that can load in whatever userland environment is suitable for one's task.
signpost: be it a shitwad to run chrome, emacs, w/e
signpost: without dockerism
asciilifeform: signpost: thinking of ye olde chroot/bsd-jail ?
signpost: yep, something like that. would be nice to start with a virgin machine and have it turned into scholar or whore without manual cranking
asciilifeform does the simplest and most ancient variant of this -- simply a rack fulla physically separate machines
signpost: yup, same.
asciilifeform: the sad part is when you find that you spend 99+% of time in the toilets.
billymg: does the problem boil down to money? if thiel wanted to pay 3-4 ft engineers to maintain a sane fork of gentoo, would that work (hypothetically)?
billymg: and if yes, then is problem solved by 1e6 btc exchange rate (where sandwich stays the same price ofcourse)
signpost: yeah, certainly would. question is then how you get your thiel to not introduce thiel-shaped incentives which prevent the sanity.
signpost: to paraphrase the man himself, "why the fuck even do something if it has no chance to monopolize its market"
billymg: signpost: yeah, so maybe not thiel. and to answer my own hypothetical re: mega btc exchg rate, would not help in current order because it's mostly write only
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-01-06 21:15:41 asciilifeform: makes for a rather great 'write-only memory' tho!
billymg: so to me it seems the real root of "why no sane gentoo fork" is "btc not spendable"
signpost: I dunno where the 50-100% figure comes from
signpost: long term capital gains is high, but not that high.
billymg: signpost: yeah, i believe around 20% as of today, but i keep hearing it'll be 50% soon (possibly in that 'infrastructure' bill?)
signpost: if that comes I'll just cash out the 30% to buy my freedom
signpost: because tax changes don't usually happen immediately.
billymg: signpost: i think what happens then is the amount you cashed out to be sufficient for freedom inflates away to not enough for freedom in a few years
signpost: anyway, better not to have one's plans rely on a longshot, but I plan on returning to my own projects somewhere in the woods in a year or two.
signpost: dunno how that tracks. you either 1) cash out just what you need, and pay 20-25% on whatever you made between $300 and $300,000 price tag, or 2) you buy a passport from Antigua for $100k and pay 30% of unrealized gains to USA
signpost: *to buy your freedom from the state dept
billymg: signpost: ah, i didn't understand that the '30% for freedom' meant renouncing citizenship
signpost: imho cheap compared to historical indentured servitude
signpost: anyway. the best strategy if billymg wants a gentoo that is by his standard sane is to find what will acquire that time for him, rather than the "stone soup" strat
billymg: signpost: i think would take 10 billymgs unfortunately
billymg: maybe that number goes down over time, but still
signpost: in either case, if you do go down the "vpatch a portage tree" route, might take another look at cuntoo, could save you some work.
signpost: ftr I always fucking hated that name.
billymg: signpost: i'll look again. so yours was for an entire portage tree, not just designed to be an overlay?
signpost: correct. "cuntoo" was its own "repo" in portage terminology
signpost: the reason I took that approach was that one could have both a cuntoo "repo" and a vintage gentoo repo, with cuntoo at higher priority.
signpost: this allowed easy cherrypicking of ebuilds into the cuntoo repo
signpost: (which one would then vpatch atop the genesis, and eventually dispense with the vintage tree)
signpost: thing gives you a vintage musltronic gentoo with lilo as bootloader, no dbus, etc etc
signpost: even farts the thing onto a usb drive for ya
signpost: mp dismissed it when it didn't have a debian-looking installer, I guess.
asciilifeform defo planning to dust off this item again and make it go from dulap-gentoo (iirc open problem)
asciilifeform: signpost imho yer approach was the Right Thing
asciilifeform: but long way to go, i suspect, to replace traditional variant
signpost: yep no doubt.
asciilifeform: at the risk of tautology -- it won't get done unless someone does it
signpost went to solve the time problem, which is why one doesn't see many works lately.
billymg: signpost: from my limited understanding of working with my own (growing) overlay at /usr/local/portage, having an overlay also allows you to pick versions/ebuilds between the main repo and overlay fairly easily
asciilifeform: signpost: 'time problem' in fact in past yr got ~substantially worse~ for asciilifeform
billymg: signpost: but it sounds like advantage of separate repo is eventually can jettison upstream completely, which means less work?
signpost: billymg: portage has two features, overlay and repo. latter is more general, can haven
asciilifeform: ( new client came , to asciilifeform's shop of horros, and found that could not refuse, on acct of the shakiness of the existing one )
signpost: *have n
signpost: and in the vintage portage, not 2021 portage
signpost: asciilifeform: we're not dead yet.
signpost: billymg: I'm happy to support ya with questions answered if you see fit to dust the thing off.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 15:54:00 billymg: does the problem boil down to money? if thiel wanted to pay 3-4 ft engineers to maintain a sane fork of gentoo, would that work (hypothetically)?
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-12 11:36:44 asciilifeform: in 'civilized world', if you have a 'high-risk high-expense long-term' project, there are exactly three ways to fund it. (1) a. carnegie and j. rockefeller think you have pretty face and gives you $B. (2) convince bureaucrats that your tech, if successful, will enable amazing Wunderwaffen with which surely ww3 will be won. (3) convince investors that they will get 300% in coupla yrs.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-12 11:37:43 asciilifeform: (1) we will disregard because it was part of largely bygone era. but included for completeness, it was how e.g. tesla was funded (westinghouse.)
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-12 11:38:18 asciilifeform: (2) and (3) the pertinent items. it was how lmi & smbx were funded. the problem with these is that they are both ~lying contests~.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-12 11:39:00 asciilifeform: and if a ~better liar~ comes along, he will win, and you -- lose. the technical merits of the proj being ~irrelevant.
signpost: and would welcome you naming it something less embarassing.
billymg: signpost: yeah, i suppose i should try it again on this box. last time i tried had almost 0 experience with gentoo and on top of that was trying to install it on some exotic new x1 6th gen thinkpad
asciilifeform: ( and elsewhere . asciilifeform beat the subj moar or less, imho, to death )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-01-06 22:59:05 asciilifeform: the folx w/ 'infinite dough', only interested in ego fellatio & cocaine. the folx who are interested in other things, have ~no dough. and often enuff even no clue, wouldn't know what to do w/ whatever gear even if gave to'em for phree.
billymg: which required quite a bit of fussing even with the upstream gentoo at the time
signpost: the matter of hardware is just a kernel config, which you have to do for any build, cuntoo or not
signpost: and firmware likely
signpost: asciilifeform: indeed, but entirely correctly
signpost was thinking of these when paraphrasing thiel
signpost: "why would I even do something if I can't destroy everything in my path while doing so?"
signpost: these are not men that build.
asciilifeform: << while we're at it, problem equally 'solvable' by martians airdropping platinum bricks into my backyard. equally, imho, likely.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 15:55:49 billymg: and if yes, then is problem solved by 1e6 btc exchange rate (where sandwich stays the same price ofcourse)
asciilifeform: << imho is lulzy that folx (incl. mp) never seem to include the costs of living in jungle shithole in 'cost of freedom'. asciilifeform not been to e.g. cr. but has been to bingoboingostan, and knows that doing what asciilifeform is wont to do in montevideo could easily cost same as what he currently pays in us tax
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 16:07:34 signpost: dunno how that tracks. you either 1) cash out just what you need, and pay 20-25% on whatever you made between $300 and $300,000 price tag, or 2) you buy a passport from Antigua for $100k and pay 30% of unrealized gains to USA
asciilifeform: on acct of the extortionate customs duties and shipping costs of errything that dun grow on that continent
asciilifeform: i.e. if yer in bingostan and you want, say, 'opteron' -- now you need to hire someone to smuggle it in. or pay its weight in silver at customs. or i suppose if you own a uboat...
asciilifeform: << obv. can't speak for other folx, but asciilifeform dun have enuff to 'be free' even at 2x of current exch rt. and 0tax somehow
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 16:02:44 billymg: so to me it seems the real root of "why no sane gentoo fork" is "btc not spendable"
asciilifeform: so rather academic subj for asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: folx for whom otoh practical -- already ran their own #s and know.
asciilifeform: << 'cashing out' one's entire chest is imho idiotic no matter how or where. inflation will eat yer pile of dough -- it's what inflation is engineered ~for~.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 16:05:36 billymg: signpost: i think what happens then is the amount you cashed out to be sufficient for freedom inflates away to not enough for freedom in a few years
billymg: asciilifeform: yeah, that's what i was saying. i misunderstood signpost's '30% for freedom' meaning 30% of stack
billymg: to mean*
billymg: and made the same point, anything you "pre-cashout" inflates away
billymg: so must be consistently spendable, so that it can last\
billymg: and by "spendable" i mean without kyc and with only fair tax from honest jurisdiction (which afaik isn't possible / doesn't exist)
asciilifeform: the other pt was that freedom can be said to come in '-' and '+' sign bits. the '-' is what folx normally focus on when fantasizing escape from usg and similar. and in some places relatively easy to come by. but to combine with '+' is much harder proposition. no gigabit fiber in zimbabwe, no one will set yer broken legs in antarctica.
asciilifeform: a man on a raft in open ocean has just about all the '-' freedom anyone could want.
billymg: asciilifeform: it's a shitty state the world is in now, won't disagree there
asciilifeform: none of the above is any kinda news imho
billymg: asciilifeform: i've been thinking of that 'you and the atomic bomb' essay and it's central point. what i was wondering is whether the atomic bomb is really still the dominant weapon today, or if you could say the dominant weapon is now information technology, and what this would mean (i.e. does a sane os on sane silicon give people their 'claws'?)
asciilifeform: billymg: the bomb, jet, etc. were of more importance back when there was actual resistance. today 'bonsai kittens' for the most part.
asciilifeform: even allah-snackbars explode now where their version of arsebook tells'em to, and not e.g. at davos.
dulapbot: Logged on 2019-12-02 02:26:44 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: disappointing, but unsurprising. in usa also riots ~always like that -- the designated 'kindling' (i.e. slums) burn, and (almost...) never the skyscrapers.
billymg: asciilifeform: that example seems like the problem is their version of fb (information tech) and not lack of resistance (willing to suicide seems like enough motivation)
asciilifeform: observe that in e.g. usa millions impoverished, evicted, deprived of just about errything incl., arguably, a soul. and no one had to drop hbomb on'em to make this happen.
asciilifeform: billymg: willingness to ~think~ (and ability to do so, and to have ~with what~) is much rarer than readiness for suicide.
asciilifeform: by coupla orders of magnitude.
billymg: asciilifeform: but say their version of fb told them to go to davos
asciilifeform can judge only by results
billymg: you don't need a million "thinkers" just one who can send messages to their screens
asciilifeform: davos -- intact.
billymg: point i'm trying to make is if you could MITM their devices you might be able to get something done, even if they can't "think". this afterall is exactly what enemy does
billymg: and if that's true then greatest weapon is the screen, not the bomb
billymg: and yes nothing has happened yet, but the point in orwell's essay is that based on the dominant tech of the time is where society leads, given enough time
billymg: dominant weapon* tech
asciilifeform: billymg: imho 'hijack broadcast once and Get The Truth Out' worx only in movie.
asciilifeform: in real life propaganda takes 'over9000' repetitions.
asciilifeform: on top of this, homo redditicus is an inherently damaged creature, and damaged in a way that can serve only the reich.
asciilifeform: and to try to 'save' them is endless black hole for any kind of effort imho. the most that thinking people oughta try to save is themselves and -- where possible -- each other.
billymg: asciilifeform: doesn't have to be actual plot as described, but there are other ways that computing 'gives claws', e.g. we now have btc, which can be stored in such a way that can never be seized, short of (successful) torture
asciilifeform: billymg: to asciilifeform seems already btc largely neutered. but asciilifeform aint an unbiased judge of this.
billymg: asciilifeform: it does seem like they've done to btc the same as they did to gold via paper markets, but btc has properties that gold doesn't that make this harder to sustain
asciilifeform: at one time asciilifeform thought 'hard to sustain' but aint seeing any signs of failure to sustain atm.
asciilifeform: 'sandwich' exch rate is rising substantially faster than btc's.
billymg: asciilifeform: that's hyperbole, even by your own account btc has done much much better than inflation
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-24 00:10:02 asciilifeform: vex: right but you must be putting wet cardboard in yours. over here the cost of e.g. cheese which actually came outta cow at some pt, has ~tripled in last 10y
billymg: last i checked btc more than tripled in last 10y
billymg: heck, in last year
asciilifeform: billymg: followed the 'expected' 'apocalyptic' trajectory for coupla yrs, then reich got the paperization going
asciilifeform: cost of e.g. housing in asciilifeform's locale is following roughly same trajectory as btc.
asciilifeform: i.e. not btc rising, but simply dollar sinking.
asciilifeform: ridiculous fucking plywood boxes advertised for $mil+ now.
billymg: asciilifeform: yes, they've been 'firing on all cyclinders' lately, but i still don't think they can do this forever (like they do with gld)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-19 14:46:56 asciilifeform: trinque: it's interesting to asciilifeform , even as spectator, how all the engines for damping btc-usd running 'redline'
asciilifeform: nuffing's forever.
asciilifeform: q is whether, as in the old saw, 'market can stay irrational longer than you can stay alive'
billymg: asciilifeform: then have children, transfer keys to them
asciilifeform not interested
billymg: asciilifeform: or apprentice, doesn't have to be own dna
asciilifeform: roughly same problem in both cases
asciilifeform: the continuity of the generations was broken.
asciilifeform: the structure for it was damaged.
asciilifeform: ( e.g. mp actually documented quite accurately, imho, how. )
billymg: asciilifeform: i think a lot of people realize this, and admitting there's a problem is the first step
billymg: i know, 'bonsai kitten' and all, but many seem to recognize 1) something's fucked up and 2) something must be done
asciilifeform does not have enuff narcissism to try to sell purported solutions to 'planetary' problems, when cannot even solve own.
asciilifeform speaking of which, must bbl
punkman: << so house doubled/tripled and we call that "same trajectory"?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 17:08:55 asciilifeform: cost of e.g. housing in asciilifeform's locale is following roughly same trajectory as btc.
punkman: << bullshit, maybe right for particular case of CR, don't know, but bullshit
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 16:32:46 asciilifeform: << imho is lulzy that folx (incl. mp) never seem to include the costs of living in jungle shithole in 'cost of freedom'. asciilifeform not been to e.g. cr. but has been to bingoboingostan, and knows that doing what asciilifeform is wont to do in montevideo could easily cost same as what he currently pays in us tax
mats: the exit tax gets even more gnarly if you're worth more than 2mn, you pay unrealised capital gains on everything you got
punkman: if asciilifeform truly dislikes US, plenty of places to choose. if need to meet client, can travel back, who cares, work is remote anyway (I think asciilifeform said so).
billymg: mats: i believe that's what was being discussed re: the '30%'. iirc < 2mn and it's just a ~$2500 filing fee
billymg: but i haven't looked in a while, not sure
mats: aand your name ends up on a public list
billymg: mats: heh, yeah. and there are public examples of people who renounced, then later usg decided "he didn't do it right, plz extradite"
punkman: plenty of people to help with tax problems
punkman: also for customs problems, what no crooked customs guy in Uruguay
mats: alf is a law abidin' citizen
billymg: imo "renounce" is legal pill and therefore only works if rule of law exists
mats: never know who really owns that guy anyway
punkman: they'll never forget you are American anyway
billymg: punkman: exactly
punkman: most countries "renounce" is not even a thing
asciilifeform: << aint so 'plenty' if also want e.g. 'ryzen' at sticker price and not at 200+% import duty.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 17:44:57 punkman: if asciilifeform truly dislikes US, plenty of places to choose. if need to meet client, can travel back, who cares, work is remote anyway (I think asciilifeform said so).
punkman: why is sticker price important? how many ryzen does asciilifeform buy per year?
asciilifeform: depends on the year. but collectively gear is good % of asciilifeform's expenses.
asciilifeform: ssd dun grow on trees either.
punkman: paying less at customs is no grand conspiracy in most places, it's everyday business. you call import agent, tell him "I need to import a package with XYZ from over there, how much will this cost", he gives you estimate, you negotiate, problem solved
asciilifeform: punkman: you slept through the pizarro debacle, didntcha.
punkman: don't remember any specifics
asciilifeform: the time ben_vulpes was unable to avoid 1 of the suitcases being inspected, and had to pay coupla k$ for 'import agent' to handle it, summing to considerable fraction of the value of the cargo
asciilifeform: or how about the time we experimentally had 'amazon' ship a $25 drive to bingoboingostan. shipping + tax was iirc >150. (and NO there was no possible 'local' substitute, it was THAT drive or fucking go home, exhaustively tested all avail. at the time metal-shelled usb3 sticks for 24/7 operation)
asciilifeform: ooor let's recall what the piz rack cost and how quickly folded from fucking gust of wind
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 12:09:10 asciilifeform: see the orig books if interested in what this cost -- was astronomical price.
asciilifeform: or the time asciilifeform and bingoboingo walked all over montevideo trying to find a shop that'd sell a rackmount 220v power strip..
asciilifeform: and satan allmighty forbid you need anyffin more exotic.
punkman: yeah if I buy $25 drive from Amazon US, Fedex will call me and say "plz to pay $150"
asciilifeform: punkman: you at least have a germany to drive to
asciilifeform: there aint a germany in south amer
punkman: or I buy $300 item from China, it comes via EMS, they email me and ask for invoice/paypal-screenshot, I send screenshot that says $50, pay $20 bucks
asciilifeform: punkman: how long btw this usually takes in gr ?
punkman: can take months with cheapest shipping options
punkman: but EMS is cheap enough
asciilifeform: for comparison, asciilifeform ordered an iron 4d ago from hk and received today. w/out any emails, phone calls, customs duties, at all
asciilifeform: if it turns out to be missing a screw, can get that screw shipped same-day.
punkman: yeah I think "official" limit is around $1000 in US
asciilifeform: never once paid a customs duty in usa.
punkman: we had customs-free at 20eur or less
asciilifeform: not for 1k, not for 5k
punkman: but they even stopped this now
punkman: everyone must fill form and pay
asciilifeform: vendors invariably fill in 'correctly'.
asciilifeform: or at least on my watch none ever failed to.
punkman: mail forwared can repackage item and include any printed documentaton/invoices you like
punkman: *mail forwarder
asciilifeform: how does forwarder help against local extortionate duties ?
punkman: I can buy $1000 item from Amazon US, sent to forwarder, they can remove all packaging, add invoice for "$100 used item", I pay 30% of $100 instead of $1000
asciilifeform: makes sense
punkman: friend can do this also
mats: geez
asciilifeform: not so diff from what we did w/ e.g. the rk's for piz.
asciilifeform: (funnily enuff the 1 item the customs people in uy pawed over and only reluctantly let through -- looked 'too new', 'sellable')
mats: so i gotta go to dive bars and get to know smugglers if i leave the zone
asciilifeform: mats: unless you need nuffin moar hightech than banana -- then yes
asciilifeform: ( alternatively fly the irons in w/ own hands )
asciilifeform: e.g. mp claimed that he made do with such comp irons as were actually sold in shops in orcistans.
asciilifeform: maybe -- was true.
asciilifeform skeptical
asciilifeform: his www was (and to this day, last i knew is) hosted in moscow.
asciilifeform: i.e. wasn't making do w/ bananistani bandwidth prices for ~that~
punkman: or for another example: pallet of clothes going to another EU country, about $5k. call import agent, talk about items, tells me I need this and that documentation. gives estimate, I sort of tell him "get fucked, you gotta do better", he does better, fixes doc problems on arrival, pallet on its way
asciilifeform: punkman: lemme guess, also months ?
punkman: couple weeks from Asia
punkman: pallets don't wait for months, take up too much space
asciilifeform: still ugh
punkman: months is for little things from china
punkman: couple weeks total, not stuck at customs
asciilifeform: or let's say you need a circuit board made. simple, 2-layer, for prototype. for coupla hundy here i get 7day turnaround (incl. shipping). how long and how much for this in e.g. gr ?
punkman: could probably get in 10 days from China, also some shops in Bulgaria
asciilifeform: olimex in bulgaria
asciilifeform: in cn 'phoenix' and prolly others, but gotta wonder how long to gr
asciilifeform: if customs in the loop
asciilifeform: little shithole orcistans, as i understand, live and breathe import taxation like reich breathes income taxation
punkman: my point is, customs is banal, solvable problem, almost everywhere.
asciilifeform: the moolah gotta come from ~somewhere~, and officials expect their yachts and rolexes in even smallest shithole kleptocracy
punkman: and yes you have it easy in US
asciilifeform: punkman: is solvable prolly even on mars. q is always 'what cost'.
punkman: now carrying bunch of servers in luggage, certainly puts you in "sucker" category
asciilifeform: punkman: if you don't have with what to pay 200% duty of (sticker price as if they were new!!) servers -- they go in luggage.
asciilifeform: how else do you propose.
asciilifeform: 'oh but what do you need servers for!' 'fuck you with hot poker'
asciilifeform: i'd've put'em in my u-boat, but so happens that i dun have a uboat.
mats: an rc narcosub looks like a fun project
asciilifeform: mats: iirc there already have been found fully robotic examples
asciilifeform: ( not entirely clear to asciilifeform for what these things needed crew to begin with. )
asciilifeform: << pretty interesting. moar entries on that list than i'd've expected
asciilifeform: ( considering the difficulty and expense of formally breaking outta usg serfdom )
mats: piloting? though i guess the sub could intermittently surface a mast with gps rx sensors and such
asciilifeform: mats: they all snorkel anyway, 100% of the way
asciilifeform: no battery will sail you across any ocean
punkman: asciilifeform: what percentage did you end up paying for luggage servers?
mats: not yet anyway
asciilifeform: mats: not ever (unless you count compact reactors as 'battery')
punkman: don't even need battery to saild across ocean
asciilifeform: punkman: to sail w/out radar profile, generally you need an artificial power source
asciilifeform: ( not to mention that if sailing, well, with sails -- need crew and provisions for same )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 17:11:34 billymg: asciilifeform: yes, they've been 'firing on all cyclinders' lately, but i still don't think they can do this forever (like they do with gld)
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $46884.17
asciilifeform: ( and they can do it for so long as waterfall runs )
asciilifeform: << if asciilifeform exaggerates, is simply because 'death by 1000 cuts' of spiraling expenses (+ 100% fixed usd income, and largely stagnant -- in last 6mo -- not to mention 'unspendable' -- btc) is painful
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 17:06:09 billymg: asciilifeform: that's hyperbole, even by your own account btc has done much much better than inflation
pete_rizzo_: eureka
asciilifeform: welcome to #a, pete_rizzo_
pete_rizzo_: thanks for the invite
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: don't forget about the logs.
pete_rizzo_: yes, thanks. definitely intend to dig into those
shinohai: oh hai pete_rizzo_ ya made it
pete_rizzo_: barely, but yes
pete_rizzo_: half the time when i try to explore everything you guys have been up to, i admit, it takes me about 10-15 minutes to wrap my head around where I was previously... :)
pete_rizzo_: Anyway, I guess I'll give you all the brief introduction I gave #asciilifeform via email.
pete_rizzo_: I was one of the first writers at CoinDesk (now an Editor at Bitcoin Magazine). FWIW I largely now agree with all your respective criticisms of CoinDesk and it's failures over the years...
pete_rizzo_: I now focus on putting together historical pieces for BM ( that are the products of some months of research. My hopes is these will actually add value to Bitcoin in some way, but I may be suffering from the usual human delusions in this regard...
pete_rizzo_: I started researching Mircea pretty seriously back in April, as I've followed B-A tangentially over the years. My intent was to write up an overview of his life/work in the same vein as the article above (and other recent work).
pete_rizzo_: I'm sure some of you will have reservations about talking to me given my past associations, but I guess to that, I would say, I think my Mircea obituary showcased I have an understanding of what bitcoin-assets was about (as much as any observer could at least)
pete_rizzo_: anyway, sorry if that's long
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: i rec to read the logs; may find that all of your questions answered already
pete_rizzo_: That's fair enough (and probably true). I guess what I'm somewhat confused about is where they diverge (and why). I've now read Trilemma and MPOE-PR Bitcoin Talk archives linearly
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: the #t log encompasses all eras incl. #b-a
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 13:55:52 asciilifeform: crib sheet: 'eta 0' -- above; 'era 1' - #b-a; 'era 2' -- trilemic period when phf had the only reliable logger; 'era 3' -- all fleanode log post-dating 2 (and to present day); 'era 4' -- dulapnet.
pete_rizzo_: That's helpful thanks. I'm not quite sure I understand what the 'Era 1' is... Would that be bitcoin-otc, predating bitcoin-assets?
pete_rizzo_: Sorry 'Era 0'
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: correct
pete_rizzo_: Ok. So, just trying something out...
pete_rizzo_: MP has these early blogs with episodes of his Bitcoin-OTC chats (
pete_rizzo_: ). So, i should be able to just change the date on the above log link to 10-12-2011 and it will pull that log?
pete_rizzo_: I guess let me know if I'm thinking about that wrong..
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: starts in april of '13. loox like era0 not imported yet
dulapbot: (trilema) 2013-04-25 pgp3: just looked at chart... shit... a couple hours can be an eternity in bitcoin land...
pete_rizzo_: I see. I'd be interested I guess in the early B-A logs... According to MP's accounting on Trilemma that starts on APRIL 2, 2012, but I know also that who created that channel was the subject of some later dispute
asciilifeform: phf's era0 starts here
asciilifeform: (13 apr 2012)
asciilifeform was dead certain he had imported era0. apparently not, and only era1 atm. gotta fill it in.
pete_rizzo_: Glad that was useful then :)
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform had no part in era0 at all.
asciilifeform: (nor found the goings-on there of much interest)
pete_rizzo_: Well I guess this at least gives you an idea of how i'm trying to go through the logs and that I do have some rough understanding of the timeline in order
asciilifeform: iirc the only fella who lived in era0 currently tuned in is kakobrekla (and no idea whether actually following in realtime)
asciilifeform: conceivably he could answer q's re the period.
asciilifeform: ( unless i'm mistaken and punkman also was there )
pete_rizzo_: Since it's a bit late here, I guess the other question I'll broach is it's hard to get any semblance of tone from the Trilema blog... which by that I mean to say, since MP was prone to aggrandizement how seriously any of the events in the timeline I've sorted out. So, like a basic question I would have, that i'm not sure that the logs could answer,
pete_rizzo_: is ... how seriously the Lordship list was taken and like whether you guys thought it was a fun thing or a VERY serious thing. Which i admit is a badly phrased question, but hopefully sympathetic on a human level
pete_rizzo_: Anyway, I hope I haven't intruded too much for now. (And sorry I'm bad at IRC)
asciilifeform: ( select t from loglines where speaker='punkman' order by t limit 1; >> 2014-01-15 12:35:06 . but again that's in mine, and turns out i don't have era0. )
asciilifeform: btw pete_rizzo_ you can grab a copy of the db (link at bottom of log pg) for yourself.
asciilifeform: it's updated hourly.
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: re lordship list -- can't speak for others, but asciilifeform took entirely seriously.
asciilifeform: e.g. asciilifeform spent large sums, used ~100% of his free time for years ; bingoboingo moved to uruguay when called upon by mp to do so ; various other folx similarly ( in late era 3, one fella went on fruitless expedition to qatar.. )
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: dunno how long you've been lurking/eating logs; for instance whether you're aware of the pizarro story.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 11:59:24 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: having trouble locating the thread on demise of pizarro isp; more specifically the "why" and the "how"
asciilifeform: so, depending what you think means 'serious' -- quite a few people were entirely serious.
asciilifeform: the noobs for whom 'was evening's entertainment' tended to last just that evening or 2.
asciilifeform: 7+yrs of daily work will not fit in any kind of sound bite. so ideally pete_rizzo_ did not come for 'sound bite' but has very specific q's; then possibly asciilifeform et al can help.
pete_rizzo_: how long I've been lurking... tough to say. I'm pretty sure the first thing I read from the group was The Hard Fork Missile Crisis by @thestringpuller. (Which is still one of the greatest bitcoin articles I've read). From there, I followed the Trilema blog and Qntra, but was never deep into the logs. In 2019 I read The Bitcoin Standard, realized it
pete_rizzo_: was basically all based on MP and BA and went back and read Trilema, Stringpuller's blog and Dushenski's blog
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: feel free to leave questions in the log, and then come back , i'ma have to get up shortly
pete_rizzo_: sounds good. Yes, I'll be here for a bit. If y'all haven't read the history articles I've been putting together they are all told in the present tense of the time, so there's no, here's what so and so said years later...
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: btw all of qntra is mirrored here.
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: can you link plz to your articles here ?
pete_rizzo_: Sure thing
pete_rizzo_: The first one is about the P2SH soft fork, the second one is about the Satoshi/Gavin transition
asciilifeform: a, so far seems to be about the forum people strictly.
asciilifeform will bbl
shinohai: ^ the girls listen to this shit xD
bingoboingo: shinohai Their friends all had at least one Insta story featuring Bzrp #36 around the new year?
verisimilitude: Well, my chording journey will end soon, for now.
verisimilitude: I've ordered a buckling spring keyboard, and will begin using that, to compare. I'll have more details in an article.
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