No Such lAbs
trilemaasciilifeformossasepiapizarroeuloraspyked
15m2h 42m1h 50m7h 49m7h 49m9h 14m
Pizarro



mod6: esthlos: nice
shinohai: In other prb: http://archive.is/hgoit
trinque: diana_coman: your www appears to be down atm
PeterL: asciilifeform mircea_popescu http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/d5OpD/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: PeterL win.
mircea_popescu: !!pay PeterL 0.02
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/oX9dL/?raw=true
PeterL: thanks!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766176 >> hm. does gprbuild -r fail because there is a main ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 02:52 asciilifeform: ^ anybody seen anything of this kind ? mod6 ? phf ? ben_vulpes ?
PeterL: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/aoq6o/?raw=true more data
mircea_popescu: data is fun huh
PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1766126 << so I was like "how hard could this be?" and I am trying to wrap my head around what this comes from, so I open up the gpg source code, and bleh, code is sooo much easier to read when it is written in ada by asciilifeform!
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 22:57 asciilifeform: btw if somebody wants to write a py or pl scriptoid that'll generate the gpg-matching 1ffffff...blah turdoid for a given file , he will get honourable-mention in the next chapter.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766190 << i see it.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 05:55 trinque: diana_coman: your www appears to be down atm
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766189 << oddly missing, the part where "we are sorry to report tmsr was right, we suck, we have fortwith ceased all pretense to the contrary". alt-world of snakeoil peddlemen where they're genuwine doktors and alliswell.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 05:12 shinohai: In other prb: http://archive.is/hgoit
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766177 <- I switched to adacore at some point, when I had enough of all sorts of weird trouble essentially; never had that specific type of problem though
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 02:52 asciilifeform: diana_coman ? who else works with gpl-gnat
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766190 <- it's up
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 05:55 trinque: diana_coman: your www appears to be down atm
mircea_popescu: in other news, anyone want to do a wire for me ? pete_dushenski ?
mircea_popescu: and holy shit the indescribably mixed bag that naggum brings to the table. take https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3216002118211980@naggum.net.html as well as anything : the post-scriptum reads "the past is not more important than the future" NEET cultish wank (re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763821 ), even as the text reads "the past is STILL, and NECESSARILY forever will be, more important than the future -- if it i
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 16:38 mircea_popescu: but since we're doing retrospective trilemas, here's an item by way of example : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SXexf/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: sn't, it's because you're from africa and have no past".
mircea_popescu: nevertheless -- that the "open source" nonsense was made for new jersey and vice-versa (no, it's NOT TRUE "anyone can contribute", holy shit already, what sort of crapsack world is this to be!), that fare is an immature bitchlet has nothing to do with lone programmers, nor with fucking professionalism.
mircea_popescu: but he doesn't see this, so in he falls into pantsuit sink, "getting personal about profession is tremendously annoying" etc. no it's fucking not, jesus christ, jwz restated. have a better personality instead!
mircea_popescu: im starting to believe the only possible definition of "postmodern man" is "he who attempts to resolve all problems by more insistend application of whatever caused them in the first place and in no other way".
mircea_popescu: stands in for a definition of marxism equally well.
mircea_popescu: (think about it, what is marxism other than the proposition that the dissatisfaction of the plebs, produiced through giving them more than they should have been given, is to be cured by giving them... even more! hurr ?)
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/land-of-coffee-land-of-winds-land-of-oddly-moistened-bints/ << Trilema - Land of coffee, land of winds, land of oddly moistened bints
mircea_popescu: "Revolutions sometimes do work, but their cost in human terms is /enormous/." << no revolutin ever worked, in any sense of "work" distinguishable from "nigger got his delicious free chicken". for the same money, "pillage works". sure, it works fine for as long as you're the one doing it.
mircea_popescu: "but mp, work here is intended to mean that the niggers can spawn a replacement society that'll be just as good as the thing they originally pillaged". "sure, and for the same definition of just as good i could replace you all with cultured strep, how about that."
mircea_popescu: all the strep votes for me so evidently the strepvolution worked. hurr ?
mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3242173964750774@naggum.no.html << take this gem. "The idiot individualist with megalomania will think that others are his inferiors, that people who work in groups never get anything done while he can get a lot done alone." vs "I am far more conscious in general than other people." BITCH WHICH IS IT!!!1
mircea_popescu: let's iliterately dork about literacy why the hell not, "it's engineering" hurr.
mircea_popescu: but, this bit maybe in the log :
mircea_popescu: "By the way, the SGML Document Interchange Format (ISO 9069) uses ASN.1 to ship SGML documents around. I wrote an implementation of SDIF in three days. Test runs showed that a major CALS application consumed approximately 40% of the character count of the SGML file, and with the then commonly available tools to parse and process SGML documents and ASN.1 processors, the SDIF data stream took around 1/200th as much CPU time and
mircea_popescu: about 75% of the memory to reconstruct the identical in-memory version of the document. This experiment was among the many data points that led me to conclude that SGML is insane and that those who think it is rational to require parsing of character data at each and every application interface are literally retarded and willfully blind. Also, an SDIF data stream can only represent a validated document and the kinds of error
mircea_popescu: s you get when parsing ASN.1 are unforgiving. There is no doubt in my mind that if SDIF had won over the insanely verbose text format, even things like HTML would have been moderately sane. Not to mention the fact that images could have been carried in the same data stream. The world would have been a better place if SDIF had won over HTML, and if the nutjobs who "invented" XML had been moderately in touch with reality, they
mircea_popescu: would have realized the insanity of requiring the verbose end-tags and the stupid syntax. XML-RPC and SOAP and the like could have been fairly inexpensive things. But, alas, people prefer buggy text formats that they can approximate rather than precise binary formats that follow general rules that are make them as easy to use as text formats. Rationality is not part of the SGML philosophy, however, and SDIF was mainly an effo
mircea_popescu: rt to keep the ODA and ODIF folks at bay and was a purely political stunt, not intended to be implemented. When I went ahead and did it, I was not exactly applauded for the effort. The fact that it was /vastly/ more efficient in all respects than the stupid character syntax was /most/ unwelcome by the community."
mircea_popescu: now, that the whole "french people can technology too!" olivetti-document-format went nowhere is, i think, neither surprising nor in anyone's estimation a bad thing ; but divorced from that, the claim that pdf-ttp would have been an improvement ?! wtf is this guy talking about ?
asciilifeform: plaintextism
asciilifeform: ( phunphakt- recall that almost all htm today goes over the cable gzipped. in that sense it in fact 'lost' to bin. )
asciilifeform: gzip was never purpose-built for this. nao picture if it were. naggum, as far as i can tell, wanted a compactly-encoded binform of sexpr as standard, to put plaintextism into its overdue grave.
asciilifeform: which is imho therightthing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pdf is a graphics format ( and a quite horrifying one, a corruption of postscript, recall ) not a text. so not the right warcrime for comparison for the french thing
asciilifeform: as for xml, naggum was apparently involved with it before wwwism began to take off, and there were any notion of humans editing it directly
asciilifeform: ( it was designed as a general-purpose 'self-describing data' -ikr? - horror , and idea was that it would be edited ~with appropriate tools~ - which unsurprisingly never were invented )
asciilifeform: sgml, rather ( where naggum was involved )
asciilifeform: ended up xml via similar process to how postscript ended up pdf
asciilifeform: and then ditto re html.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766221 << they work exactly as death works for people - 'so long as somebody else doing it', noshit. civilizations sensesce and gotta get gc'd - like people. e.g. nick the II-nd's regime was liquishit. or take the last habsburgs..
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 10:18 mircea_popescu: "but mp, work here is intended to mean that the niggers can spawn a replacement society that'll be just as good as the thing they originally pillaged". "sure, and for the same definition of just as good i could replace you all with cultured strep, how about that."
asciilifeform: *senesce
asciilifeform: if yer ancien regime is vulnerable to revolution, it's rotten.
asciilifeform: it's rather like those fungi that eat aids sufferers.
asciilifeform: i vaguely suspect that without periodic catastrophes where elite is butchered ( dun matter so much by whom, barbarians, jacobins, or plague ) you end up with the castes of india . but naturally not testable.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766223 << i parsed the sentence differently --' idiot individualist' implying the existence of 'smart individualist', who is able to make use of a platoon of hands, rather than be crippled by 'committeeism'
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 11:29 mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3242173964750774@naggum.no.html << take this gem. "The idiot individualist with megalomania will think that others are his inferiors, that people who work in groups never get anything done while he can get a lot done alone." vs "I am far more conscious in general than other people." BITCH WHICH IS IT!!!1
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766211 << the classical j00z have the 'past is moar important' jumpers set to max: iirc they have a 'the further we get from moses, the moar of god-given wisdom is lost', i.e. nonrenewable resource.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 09:01 mircea_popescu: and holy shit the indescribably mixed bag that naggum brings to the table. take https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3216002118211980@naggum.net.html as well as anything : the post-scriptum reads "the past is not more important than the future" NEET cultish wank (re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763821 ), even as the text reads "the past is STILL, and NECESSARILY forever will be, more important than the future -- if it i
asciilifeform: imho it is an unappealing and uninteresting pov
asciilifeform: why do anything at all if 'we cannot hope to beat the old greeks' say.
asciilifeform: possibly mircea_popescu parsed the 'important' differently ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766213 << d00d freely conversed in the langs of europe, had classical education, read his frege, etc and was no more 'neet' than e.g. mircea_popescu , socrates, et al
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 09:01 mircea_popescu: sn't, it's because you're from africa and have no past".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766206 << after ffa i'ma necessarily move on to the chore of nailing down gnat.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 08:39 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766177 <- I switched to adacore at some point, when I had enough of all sorts of weird trouble essentially; never had that specific type of problem though
asciilifeform: and fixing the atrocities like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-29#1743986 .
a111: Logged on 2017-11-29 01:41 asciilifeform: funnily enough adacore itself publishes a great many cut-down runtimes for various embedded boxes, e.g. https://bitbucket.org/tkoskine/embedded-arm-gnat-rts/src . BUT they are not usable: 1) there is -- quite deliberately -- not one targeting conventional userland linux 2) none of them support exception handling, which wouldn't be a problem except that ALL BOUNDS CHECKS ARE EXCEPTIONTRONIC
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766196 << the orig, as written , operates correctly on all correct gnats.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 08:26 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766176 >> hm. does gprbuild -r fail because there is a main ?
asciilifeform: the gprbuild thing hasn't changed since ch1, also, and i dun expect that it ever will ( unlike makefiles, these dun need to )
asciilifeform: even works on crapple gnat ( in dbg mode, disables staticbuild , crapple linker refuses those )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766198 << neato PeterL. though apparently the resolution of the timer is better than i thought, so probably the weight test should have been written like this,
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 08:29 PeterL: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/aoq6o/?raw=true more data
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A ....~.~.~ X
pehbot: asciilifeform:
asciilifeform: !A.~.~.~...X
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 9: Division by Zero!
asciilifeform: lolgrr
asciilifeform: let's instead
asciilifeform: !A .0.1+.0.1+.0.1+(and pretend we X)Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: vs:
asciilifeform: !A .0.1-.0.1-.0.1- (and pretend we X)Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
asciilifeform: because the game board setup, if you will, also gotta be constant-time.
asciilifeform: actually this is still not ideal, instead let
asciilifeform: !A .0.1+.0.1+.0.1+ .0.1-.0.1-.0.1- ( pretend.. ) Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: versus
asciilifeform: !A .0.1-.0.1-.0.1- .0.1+.0.1+.0.1+ ( ditto ) Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
asciilifeform: ( exercise for readers -- why is this machination needed
asciilifeform: ? )
asciilifeform: ...article updated.
asciilifeform: ( ".~.~.~.1.1.1X" vs ".1.1.1.~.~.~X" , nao. )
esthlos: asciilifeform: have any (text)book suggestions for a computer hardware architecture n00b?
asciilifeform: esthlos: old edition of h & p
asciilifeform: ( j. l. hennessy & d. a. patterson )
asciilifeform: there are prolly other good ones from same era.
esthlos: thanks!
asciilifeform: also depends on where the white spaces in your education are -- do you already know how to e.g. make shift registers, adders, etc. and need refresh re cpu ? or already know cpu mechanics and need electronics refresh ? or wat.
esthlos: effectively, electronics are black boxes. I know how to use logic gates to add, store stuff, etc., but only the theory
esthlos: which actually puts me in a position of not _really_ grokking compys
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, esthlos , where do you perceive to be the gap ?
asciilifeform: ( e.g. ' i know how addition works but not how to make a cpu that fetches instructions ...' ? )
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in other oddities, http://www.xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/pd.html
asciilifeform: !#s xah lee
a111: 10 results for "xah lee", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=xah%20lee
asciilifeform: ^ old-time crackpot, occasional reader of asciilifeform's www
asciilifeform: now has a quasi-blog again.
esthlos: this question is turning out hard to answer
shinohai: It may sound retarded, but I learned how XOR and NAND gates work by reading Forrest Mimm books and building the shit on a breadboard.
asciilifeform: where e.g. 'since about say 2010, there's a new generation of programers, whose mantra is “help”, “be positive”. They shy away from negative things, even occasional swearing. I consider them scumbags. Many young star coders are of this ilk.'
asciilifeform: shinohai: so did i
asciilifeform: the little green one with the cartoons specifically.
esthlos: i've read https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Elements_of_Computing_Systems.html?id=THie6tt-2z8C&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false
shinohai: Yes, that's the best one
esthlos: but have no idea wtf my compute is actually _doing_ 99% of the time
esthlos: o course, like you have been saying asciilifeform, it's epicycles. but at least epicycles are a single coherent idea! (i.e. fourier transform)
asciilifeform: esthlos: satan himself doesn't know what typical x86 pc does with 99% of its time.
asciilifeform: this is entirely separate problem from 'i don't know how a 6502 worked'
asciilifeform: for contrast , here http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-01#1678049 is a 6502 cpu made by hand , of discretes.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-01 02:43 asciilifeform: in other iron, http://6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm
asciilifeform: or here http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-24#1489165 , say, is one made 'conventional' way, out of an actual historic 6502. complete comp, runs 'basic' , etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-24 03:09 asciilifeform: phf: http://zx80.netai.net/grant/6502/Simple6502.html << to get you started...
asciilifeform: once you understand how these 2 worked, errything else in vonneumann-world is correctly seen as a bloated version of same.
asciilifeform: !#s 6502
a111: 116 results for "6502", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=6502
asciilifeform: !#s z80
a111: 222 results for "z80", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=z80
asciilifeform: ^ see also various threads.
esthlos: I suppose I don't know, then, what i'm misisng. but certainly I couldnt cogently argue why x86 sucks besides 'von neumann lol'
asciilifeform: if you dun know the basic idea of von neumann comp, you are not yet ready for this argument, correct.
asciilifeform: the hinge is 'what is the prime mover' in the machine, and what -- 'the moved'.
asciilifeform: in j. von n.'s model, there is (ideally. in actual life, all kinds of 'unprincipled exceptions' like dma) 1 prime mover, what today we call 'cpu'.
esthlos: i know buzzword, 'register machine'
asciilifeform: and it sequentially reads instructions from somewhere, and each time does something. which consists of picking up operands somewhere, carrying out a e.g. addition or subtraction , and dropping the result somewhere.
asciilifeform: then moves to a new instruction, by incrementing an instruction-pointer , and does it again. and again. etc
asciilifeform: this is von neumann's
asciilifeform: machine.
asciilifeform: nao here http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis/tree/fg.v is an example of a non-vonneumann computer.
asciilifeform: ( granted fg itself it is not a general-purpose comp. but the fpga substrate -- is. observe that it is not programmed by being given a series of sequentially-executed instructions. )
asciilifeform: fg per se is , i will argue , ~also~ a comp, it has a few bits of state, accepts input , of a kind, over time, computes a certain function, emits output.
asciilifeform: and, observe, a non-vonneumann comp.
asciilifeform: there are many others.
esthlos: interesting.
esthlos: a 6502 sounds like a good project
asciilifeform: there are simpler designs for general-purpose cpu
asciilifeform: e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677537
a111: Logged on 2017-06-30 16:48 asciilifeform: there exists ( in the sense where asciilifeform thought of it, but then went to dig in the dusty libraries and discovered ancient tomes ) a thing called 'tta'
asciilifeform: 6502 has the advantage of history.
asciilifeform: ( and of the raw instructions being quite readable, per se, as a program . unlike the turingsoup one puts into a transfer-machine or the like )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766234 << no dude, he a) doesn't have any fucking idea what he wanted, which is shocking enough, but b) what he SAYS he wanted is nonsense beyond the pale. "images could have traveled in the same stream!!!" says the man whose signature says "hey, i have nigerian scam options in excess of a trillion that i'm not exercising, you can stop sending me more". really ? wtf is wrong with him ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 14:23 asciilifeform: gzip was never purpose-built for this. nao picture if it were. naggum, as far as i can tell, wanted a compactly-encoded binform of sexpr as standard, to put plaintextism into its overdue grave.
mircea_popescu: I DO NOT WANT the images to be part of the samestream ; or ANYTHING ELSE. half the time i don't even download the images.
mircea_popescu: and no, i don't use https ; and no, not gzipped. and so on.
asciilifeform: ooh yes it is.
asciilifeform: iirc even lynz supports the transpareng gzip thing.
mircea_popescu: html never lost to him ; though the proprietary tardboys keep trying to make it.
asciilifeform: *lynx
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but i don't use it.
mircea_popescu: and trilema doesn't support it afaik.
asciilifeform: tcpdump and you might be surprised.
asciilifeform: had to disable it manually on a box recently, it fucked up an experiment
mircea_popescu: aha! so then ?
mircea_popescu: "really, i don't use it either, but i like to talk about it"
asciilifeform: good % of www traffic seems to use it.
mircea_popescu: good percent of africa seems to use infibulation.
asciilifeform: ( trades cpu time for bandwidth, like any other compressor )
mircea_popescu: no. that's thge superficial analysis. it trades sense for inca, like any urbanism.
asciilifeform: where's the necessary inca element in compressing a highly redundant turd before moving it ?
mircea_popescu: "can have pictures in the stream"
mircea_popescu: it's EXACTLY the "strlen is now O(fuckyou)".
mircea_popescu: "get the whole thing before you see what's inside" ie "do not do the thing everyone does to republican log -- parse". that IS what inca is.
mircea_popescu: "jam -- tomorrow"
mircea_popescu: "buy war bonds"
mircea_popescu: "move to the city"
mircea_popescu: etcetera.
asciilifeform: how 'picture' ended up a gnarly hack on top of 'streams of text', rather than an uninteresting and harmless 'yet another possible sexpr' is separate item.
mircea_popescu: if i don't get the topstruct and if i can't throw out any up to n-1 elements out of n on my own time, it's broken.
mircea_popescu: this is what "plaintext" means here.
asciilifeform: plaintextism is insiduously wrongthing. there is nothing 'intrinsically clean' about stream of 7bit teletypolade.
asciilifeform: or intrinsically dirty re photos.
mircea_popescu: and if memory serves his sdif was NOT "structure first, and stream recomposed a la carte"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform different meaning, which is why i used quotes.
asciilifeform: sexpr is even quicker for 'throw out unwanted element' than ye olde txt, can do in O(1)
mircea_popescu: was his sdif sexpr in this sense ?
asciilifeform: now this i cannot say.
mircea_popescu: i don't recall a handshake of this sort. but many years.
asciilifeform: not yet done the necessary archaeological dig, to find whether d00d was on to The Right Thing or notquite.
mircea_popescu: as the astute reader may have guessed, the plaintext revelation sent /me on an emergency reread of many ancient things.
asciilifeform: also. in anticipation of mircea_popescu's puzzlers.
mircea_popescu: i guess the above was #1 ; but in more general form : how would a PSTP ("plaintext" sexpr transport protocol) actually look ? ie, use sexpr to deliver the above required property.
asciilifeform: this is the mega-q.
mircea_popescu: now it's in the logs.
asciilifeform: and asciilifeform for example has been quietly experimenting with subj since the 1st 'tabs' thread.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has quit (Read error << where's that shortwave!111
esthlos: o course, like you have been saying asciilifeform, it's epicycles. but at least epicycles are a single coherent idea! (i.e. fourier transform)
asciilifeform: waiiwat
asciilifeform: that sounds familiar, esthlos didja fatfinger yer paste button
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766314
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 16:44 esthlos: o course, like you have been saying asciilifeform, it's epicycles. but at least epicycles are a single coherent idea! (i.e. fourier transform)
esthlos: yep sry
asciilifeform: aite
esthlos: can't find a non-shit irc client
esthlos: prolly gonna write one
asciilifeform: there aint any goodones afaik, lol
esthlos: and write a bouncer, without 1e6+ features
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15889.99, vol: 8447.32925389 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15923.42125529, vol: 31930.41294937 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15850.0, vol: 2252.24896724 | Volume-weighted last average: 15912.9176696
mircea_popescu: epicycles are not a single coherent idea.
mircea_popescu: epicycles are the idea that "i justwant to", which is neither single nor coherent. it is however a simple and comfortable idea.
asciilifeform: the greeks had a peculiar fixation with 'perfect circle'
mircea_popescu: now that's a simple if incoherent idea!
asciilifeform: aaha.
asciilifeform: it was their 'plain text' , lel
mircea_popescu: i suppose it was, at that.
asciilifeform: that is one of the more painful kinds of glue trap.
asciilifeform: the 'simple idea'.
mircea_popescu: ie, an expectation of ideals, which is to say that ideas may be single or coherent.
asciilifeform: and it is a professional hazard asciilifeform is quite aware of on own skin.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766236 << pdf had a very similar "xml-like" containerized notation in the early days adobe was trying to push it on the world. this is what the problems with these samovars is : whether named adobe or olivetti, they're still samovars, and deducing one is harmless because it never got to grow up is at best naive. they all grow up into the same thing if given the chance ; so never give them an
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 14:25 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pdf is a graphics format ( and a quite horrifying one, a corruption of postscript, recall ) not a text. so not the right warcrime for comparison for the french thing
mircea_popescu: y fucking chances.
mircea_popescu: which is why discussion with electrum (or any other such tardism) isn't (as the pantsuit aggitators try to make it) carried "on the technical merits". it will be carried in the terms of "those involved are not people, may not touch keyboards, cut their hands and gouge their eyes out".
mircea_popescu: substitute whatever, prb, usg.legalsystem, what have you.
asciilifeform: i dunno that this is false. but seems to resemble what i said re revolutions killing civilizations -- that errything senesces , bloats, dies in the end.
asciilifeform: specifically re postscript --when it was new, it was every bit as clean and orthogonal as, say, ffacalc.
asciilifeform: then the hump of the bellcurve came for it.
asciilifeform: i dun have a mechanized pill against this.
asciilifeform: all things are born, flower, wither, die.
mircea_popescu: the propensiety of K-selected societies to stop beating the dumb wives, and their dumber offspring, permitting puddles of r-defectors to form up (because if no penalty is attached to newjerseysm, newjerseysm becomes very much http://trilema.com/2010/de-ce-sunt-contra-legalizarii-drogurilor/ style mandatory ) ; then K-selected society collapses under the cost of ever growing afr-ican americans, and then, in the new environment
mircea_popescu: , where the penalty for failure is HUGE, springs up again.
mircea_popescu: there is nothing necessary about this cycle of wasteful idiocy. beat your swedish civilised wife whenever she deos the dumb.
mircea_popescu: has girl into dungeon room right now. she's smart, educated, competent, and she can still fuck up even so. and when she fucks up...
mircea_popescu: there's a REASON the warcry of the r-selected "new programmer" was "there's no penalty for trying".
asciilifeform: i'm curious re the 'they all grow up into the same thing if given the chance' item.
mircea_popescu: there's however absolutely no reason to put up with them.
asciilifeform: which they.
mircea_popescu: adobe, apple, microsoft, olivetti, "the united states of america", "russian revolution", all depersonalized-but-persons corporations.
asciilifeform: ( is there a technical root of the cancers after all ? or is it simply the 'monkeys inherit the temple, and it doesn't matter how temple was built' phenomenon ? both ? )
BingoBoingo: appreciates growth of samovar joake into classic
mircea_popescu: which is why ... http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763573
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 02:43 mircea_popescu: to put it in other words : the republic does not deem corporatyions to be persons. a corporation can't owe tax for the exact same reason the united states government can't be sovereign.
BingoBoingo: also considered acquiring samovar at the feria today, but decided better. Arepas and baked goods instead.
asciilifeform: 'adobe' was originally 2 d00dz , iirc ; ditto crapple. the transformation into fungi happened at some later point
BingoBoingo: 2 doodz can have candidiasis
BingoBoingo: Transmit even.
mircea_popescu: yes, when they decided it is "a goal". there's an exceptional line in mimi, metalurgico ferito nel'onore, where some idiots go "ma figli ce li abbiamo tutti, e c'e chi si fa cazzi di tutti e chi si fa i cazzi suoi!"
asciilifeform: this is what i meant in 'and then the hump of the bellcurve came for it'.
BingoBoingo: If 2 doodz spread the candidiasis while spreading the AIDs
mircea_popescu: the moment the "oh, it's a GOAL", oh, "it's above mere people", oh, it's a "Corporation", you got the rot.
asciilifeform: once instead of '2 d00dz' it's an 'institution' , it gets chair-warmers, diversirasts, whole shebang
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: hump of bell curve may come, but only on knees and naked.
mircea_popescu: hump of bell curve may not come on own terms. or even have terms.
mircea_popescu: which is what the whole "no franchise" thing is all about.
mircea_popescu: (btw, film's totally worth watching. here, trailer : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX2vr3Qfrpg )
asciilifeform: watched ^ just nao on a box with 0 audio... interesting
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you're curious, by the way, the origin of the "corporatization" so to speak is that ancient trick from, if i memory serves, dickens (but could be any other pulp copywriter) : that the visible boss prefers to pretend a silent partner is there disallowing the whatever, so he can have both cake and eat it too (ie, comiserate with worker but not indulge worker idiocy).
asciilifeform: in modern usa called 'goodcop-badcop'
mircea_popescu: from here to "we sacrificye for PARTY" is but one step, and it's idiotic step. soviet worked when sacrificed for lenin, for trotsky, for stalin. failed when sacrificed "For party"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite.
asciilifeform: there was also an old mircea_popescu article about 'grifters'
mircea_popescu: have the fucking decency to die for another man, not for an imaginary tootpick. a life shouldbe worth at least that much.
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/ << here, i think, it is
asciilifeform: 'Irrespective of you, entirely and in all respects, what will happen is that you will meet a grifter and have a child, and that child will be disaster. Pain, sadness, hunger, death and human suffering of proportions strictly commensurate to your "drive", to your "ambition", to the clarity of your "vision" and the purity of your intentions. And we won't care. Nobody will care. You will be remembered as that shill that delivered the pe
asciilifeform: ople who trusted you, the people that loved you, to some grifter or other. You will be remembered as Adonis-number.'
asciilifeform: re 'die for stalin', incidentally, oblig : http://www.great-country.ru/rubrika_myths/stalin/00002.html
asciilifeform: ^ linked for the pics.
asciilifeform: or, alternatively, http://rusdemotivator.ru/uploads/posts/2010-06/1275904553_40960_oni-umirali-za-rodinu-za-stalina.jpg << 'they died 'for motherland, for stalin'. but we - we die from dope and drink.'
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: dat fucking impossible cannon
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is this like the trench warfare pantsuit / respectable man discussing the important (for inca) matter of whether there was or there was not personal loyalty involved in the victory in europe ?
mircea_popescu: "war was not won at stalingrad but in sicily" or somesuch nonsense, not by stalin's organon but by bletchley park retcon ?
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/no-such-labs-snsa-december-2017-statement/ << Trilema - No Such lAbs (S.NSA), December 2017 Statement
mircea_popescu: ^ sorry, original had wrong title ; apeloyee pointed out.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766238 << this is a lot like "oh, handjob-appropriate tools, we have these leftower early sewing machines". no thanks. if i can't edit by hand it's a binary format.i want source.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 14:27 asciilifeform: ( it was designed as a general-purpose 'self-describing data' -ikr? - horror , and idea was that it would be edited ~with appropriate tools~ - which unsurprisingly never were invented )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766245 << certainly, by the time you're open to strep...
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 14:35 asciilifeform: if yer ancien regime is vulnerable to revolution, it's rotten.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766248 << sadly the author not here to explain ; the view would be sustainable if one could unearth any portion where he unambiguously refers to the proposed other kind of individualist.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 14:44 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766223 << i parsed the sentence differently --' idiot individualist' implying the existence of 'smart individualist', who is able to make use of a platoon of hands, rather than be crippled by 'committeeism'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766252 << jews aside, any view which fails to priviledge the past is irrational inescapably. very much a case of "to have idea -- first must not be idiot". the futurists are all to the last man irrecoverable hipster doofuses, fundamentally incapable of distinguishing anything from anything else.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 14:47 asciilifeform: imho it is an unappealing and uninteresting pov
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766253 << same reason to do anything at all if we can't hope to overturn bitcoin. what, i'm going to invent periodic numeration systems now so various moderntards can feel euclid ? the idiocy pioneered by pantsuit "computer science" is an absces not a species. it shan't spread to other parts of human culture nor will it manage to hold on to computing, innovation-for-tyhe-sake-of-inca-distrib
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 14:47 asciilifeform: why do anything at all if 'we cannot hope to beat the old greeks' say.
mircea_popescu: uting-innovator-medals-in-lieu-of-meal-tickets doth not belong. anywhere.
mircea_popescu: you will never fucking reinvent infinitesimal calculus. for one thing, it's fine as it is (you fuck with it, it get heavy, and you still no hit largest side of barn), and for the other fuck you and your psychological needs. you were born late rather than early, if you don't like it should have been born earlier. invent something else or don't, either way.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766214 should prolly be in here in original, ie : "In most other language communities, having your ideas rejected is no big deal, because you can come up with another one at little extra cost, but if you spent a year designing something super-clever that you really like and which you have used for a long time seeing it trashed viciously (because you refuse to back down and get increasingly h
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 09:02 mircea_popescu: nevertheless -- that the "open source" nonsense was made for new jersey and vice-versa (no, it's NOT TRUE "anyone can contribute", holy shit already, what sort of crapsack world is this to be!), that fare is an immature bitchlet has nothing to do with lone programmers, nor with fucking professionalism.
mircea_popescu: ostile to those who simply did not like your idea to begin with) may be too much for some brittle egos [...] while the Scheme community encourages people to go off and implement their _own_ Scheme, the Common Lisp standard is so big and mature that those who want to reinvent the wheel, or at least a portion of the wheel (like an Arc :), usually fail miserably."
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766473 << i can't speak for mircea_popescu , but i have never edited a file 'by hand' , a la http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-25#643502
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 19:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766238 << this is a lot like "oh, handjob-appropriate tools, we have these leftower early sewing machines". no thanks. if i can't edit by hand it's a binary format.i want source.
a111: Logged on 2014-04-25 20:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://www.stalingrad-battle.ru/images/stories/ris42.jpg
asciilifeform: only ever with machine.
asciilifeform: sounds like plaintextism
trinque: what's the story behind pic btw? guy cut the cable, bit to "read" morse by mouth-shock?
mircea_popescu: the ~NECESSARY~ correlate of "don't say faggot, so the dumb that are also gay do not feel excluded" ; "don't say stuff like http://trilema.com/2017/the-boundless-burden/ lest you discourage the dumb bulk of womanhood from participating" etc is that EVENTUALLY you will come to "change the language every third year so as not to discourage the dumb from inventing"
mircea_popescu: and this is madness.
asciilifeform: trinque: legend was that germans cut it. and d00d was sent to fix it, but was shot, and as he bled out he put it in his teeth so as to clamp it in death.
trinque: nb
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that machine is to be an enhancement not a substitute.
asciilifeform: trinque: it's a story.
mircea_popescu: no fucking dwim.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is not a very high bar
mircea_popescu: it's what plaintext got redefined to mean.
mircea_popescu: you'll have to excuse me while i make snese of what's actually left under this lid. so far -- not even a proper word for it.
asciilifeform: can i persuade mircea_popescu into writing an essay
asciilifeform: subj really calls for one
mircea_popescu: but when i have to tell the machine ~what I want~, as opposed to ~what the world is~, we're lost for sanity.
mircea_popescu: machine has no relation to the world outside of my mercy.
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: how would it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform take an apple, see HOW.
mircea_popescu: it KNOWS whart fucking power plug it wants.
mircea_popescu: anyway, essay eventually but not nearly there yet.
asciilifeform: i suspect mircea_popescu nailed the orig problem in the old article where 'and then they began to began to imagine that the machines are alive'
mircea_popescu: possibly.
asciilifeform: or sumthinglikethat
mircea_popescu: the problem essentially is that there's two kinds of people, one of which wants to be relieved of the burden of thought ; for which purpose they invented the jap before they invented microsoft word.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766477 << it's considerably moartragic in light of naggum's biography. he went to usa as a young man because he heard there were individualists there , and joined an aynrand cult , and burned out, came back
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 19:55 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766248 << sadly the author not here to explain ; the view would be sustainable if one could unearth any portion where he unambiguously refers to the proposed other kind of individualist.
mircea_popescu: (jap = jewish american princess, this mythical beast that wants to marry you and once she does you will never have to make a decision ever again)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766479 << past is where the items to be learned from live, even if the world were just a week old; so in that sense how could thinking
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 19:59 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766252 << jews aside, any view which fails to priviledge the past is irrational inescapably. very much a case of "to have idea -- first must not be idiot". the futurists are all to the last man irrecoverable hipster doofuses, fundamentally incapable of distinguishing anything from anything else.
asciilifeform: ... man NOT 'privilege past'
mircea_popescu: YES!
mircea_popescu: there's no magic number as to WHICH past. but in point of fact past is all there is.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate bit is that nobody can move ~into~ past.
asciilifeform: future is where people are stuck moving to.
mircea_popescu: sure. im not even persuaded this is any kind of unfortunate.
asciilifeform: ( the supurious concretization of 'future' i suspect is a root philosophical ill of 20th c, like the humanization of computer )
mircea_popescu: and the humanization of the pleb.
asciilifeform: *spurious
mircea_popescu: and so on. yes, reification is the (forced, sure, but still) mistake of the drowning.
asciilifeform: right, but that one's sorta obvious
mircea_popescu: "so many concepts, let's pretend some are our friends"
asciilifeform: the subtle mistakes are the moar lethal.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766484 << cauchy 'reinvented', neh
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 20:06 mircea_popescu: you will never fucking reinvent infinitesimal calculus. for one thing, it's fine as it is (you fuck with it, it get heavy, and you still no hit largest side of barn), and for the other fuck you and your psychological needs. you were born late rather than early, if you don't like it should have been born earlier. invent something else or don't, either way.
asciilifeform: but no, nobody gets to reinvent in the idjit-schoolboy-dreams sense of 'and then they forgot how to do it and i Show Them and Become Newton' or whichever
asciilifeform: ( and when this actually happens, it is as part of a great catastrophe , not something to be cheered )
mircea_popescu: quite.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766487 << one of the recurring motifs in the naggum threads is the scheme thing. scheme got stuck in its development (politically, rather than technically, it got orphaned and lacked a mircea_popescu at a critical time in its gestation ) and ended up in the hands of 'perfect circles' people
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 20:10 mircea_popescu: ostile to those who simply did not like your idea to begin with) may be too much for some brittle egos [...] while the Scheme community encourages people to go off and implement their _own_ Scheme, the Common Lisp standard is so big and mature that those who want to reinvent the wheel, or at least a portion of the wheel (like an Arc :), usually fail miserably."
mircea_popescu: there's this observation that "the dumb woman's ideal is to live in K-selected society so there's no infibulation or tit pounding ; but that then she personally defects to pursue r-selection". this may or may not be true as applied, but it exists as a trope, the forever wank of the insufficient, be it a dumb woman, a dysfunctional adolescent (the neil simon type, that then "goes to city and becomes his TRUE SELF writing for n
mircea_popescu: yt") etcetera all share it : "what if magically" etc.
asciilifeform: ( there are salvageable organs in the scheme corpse. but there is not imho a usable per-se schemetron. )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's his issue with gat anyway, i always thought he was one of the more level headed mid generation lisper folk.
asciilifeform: gatt (renamed himself, today garrett ) wrote a large pile of 'lisp is dead, woe is me, once there were things but never again' 'emo' screeds on comp.lang.lisp
mircea_popescu: the jet propulsion lab fellow ?
asciilifeform: him
asciilifeform: to which naggum , not surprisingly , answered 'shuddup bitch, i am making money with payware lisps, my systems work, go be emo chick somewhere else'
mircea_popescu: he also wrote a lisp-is-faster-than-c item back in the days the microsoft hired hands were pissing all over o'reilly&marc "my middle name is cocksucker" andressen's java
asciilifeform: gatt started out presiding over a usg laboratory where spacecraft ran lisps, worked properly, etc.
asciilifeform: then item went to shit, for general usgification 1990s reasons
asciilifeform: and he lost his marbles.
asciilifeform: ( or so is asciilifeform's picture . )
mircea_popescu: possibly.
mircea_popescu: http://www.flownet.com/gat/papers/lisp-java.pdf << item, if anyone's curious.
mircea_popescu: (this being 2000, seems to contradict the theory ?)
asciilifeform: 1990s didn't really end till 2001 , lol
asciilifeform: sept. 11, 2001
asciilifeform: sorta how american '1960s' ended in '74
mircea_popescu: so all that happened in one year ?
asciilifeform: phase transition, of sorts.
mircea_popescu: goes fishing into documents.
asciilifeform: http://www.flownet.com/ron << d00d .
asciilifeform: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html << the most well-known piece by gatt/garrett , 'lisping at jpl'
mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3242228166365080@naggum.no.html << sample eggregious piece ; dated 2002 so i guess the theory here is gat got depressed cca 2001 pissed off naggum who didn't know how to express self better ?
asciilifeform: that was the picture i got. largely from the c.l.l articles.
mircea_popescu: ican see it.
asciilifeform: ( all i got is archaeology, i wasn't there; never met anybody who was there , only have the shards of the old pots. )
mircea_popescu: i'll confess i'm not very impressed with the nonsense. it's one thing to flame some idiot into the ground, but it's not clear to me gat/garrett met the criteria.\
asciilifeform: they go way back. e.g. https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3144868668727852@naggum.no.html
asciilifeform: gatt habitually showed symptoms of pantsuitism
asciilifeform: usually in short bursts , like in ^example
mircea_popescu: "since about say 2010, there's a new generation of programers, whose mantra is “help”, “be positive”. They shy away from negative things, even occasional swearing. I consider them scumbags." << http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766301 not even terrible ; anyone know how ti invite the dood ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 16:41 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in other oddities, http://www.xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/pd.html
mircea_popescu: (amusingly, if you ask the last years' crop of retards, "things were always that way". perhaps because their inumerate mothers went to yoga classes in the same 1974s and drank smothies)
asciilifeform: the sad thing is that he doesn't seem to have any obvious means of contact
asciilifeform: walled himself up.
mircea_popescu: well, then it's his job to invite himself.
asciilifeform: i've looked for how to get him before.
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't see how the linked item supports the theory.
asciilifeform: seems to have a twatter , http://www.xahlee.org/subscribe.html
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the one with 'but they'll be destitute' ?
mircea_popescu: in point of fact that's exactly how it works : if you convince the smart folk to be separate and you unite the monkeys into one "state", then yes you get the size disparity problem.
mircea_popescu: the whole fucking idea of republic is to meaningfully unite the smart and destroy the fakeout "unity" of the monkeys.
asciilifeform: tru
mircea_popescu: let the monkeys negotiate from this position where they have to explain themselves to my standard.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the following situation : something happens.
mircea_popescu: for convenience, let's say it's a big deal. no need to specify what.
asciilifeform: supposes
mircea_popescu: can you picture the hordes of tv watchers gathering me up and setting up a spectacle (like those inane 1980s lassie-in-court tv productions) whereby some pompous douche ("a judge!!11") asks me to... explain... what happened ?
mircea_popescu: bitch, i'm not explaining jack shit to you. YOU fucking explain to me how exactly you ended up with all this crap.
asciilifeform: waitasec since when does judge 'explain'
mircea_popescu: quite the fucking point.
mircea_popescu: who explains events to whom is the entire construct here. let the dumb explain their dumbness to me.
asciilifeform: sometimes i wonder if it's actually mircea_popescu working without gloves on the hot smoking factory floor of the insane asylum, and asciilifeform somehow is the one looking down from dirigible
asciilifeform: i dun have nearly enuff contact with the tv insanity
mircea_popescu: fine, take a different tack.
mircea_popescu: you drive, "cop" gets in the way. does cop explain to you why he got in the way or does cop expect you to explain what it was you were doing to him ?
mircea_popescu: let the ~actual~ 15yos be in the position where they have to explain themselves, and receive in exchange clarifications of the rules and punishments as appropriate.
asciilifeform: oddly enuff it is cop who 'explains', 'от имени Союза Советских Социалистических Республик , i now get in your way , for your having exceeded 10 times the speed of an unladen snail on this tuesday...'
mircea_popescu: that explanation doesn't cut it.
mircea_popescu: let him try again.
mircea_popescu: what did you think explanation is, lmao. to MY STANDARD.
asciilifeform: when you drive over a hole, it also doesn't usually speak and explain why it decided to be a hole
mircea_popescu: and for this failure it gets punished out of existence.
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: same item. asphalteur truck just hasn't come yet.
mircea_popescu: so i think the correct working of the system is well understood. similarily, that this system is not implemented correctly is also obvious. in this context, gat's one liner is perfectly sensible, what's the problem with it ?
mircea_popescu: the reason smart people condescend to use bad tools is because they have no others. why do we use gnat or gcc ?
mircea_popescu: same reason, gat smiles. "it's because the alternative is..."
asciilifeform: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3147630043965732@naggum.no.html << moar echoes . possibly today no one will even be able to say , for a fact, wat.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform apparently there was also some private acrymony. anyway, the piece reads like the flailing of pantsuit flavours.
mircea_popescu: a) germany won ww2, which is why us is trying to be alt-germany not alt-britain ; and why hitlers' goals (anihilation of british empire) were delivered upon ; b) the war was by very far the best thing that couldf ever have happened to russians, as individual people.
mircea_popescu: without ww2, russia would be kazahstan.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know, i can't miss that for someone who read and traveled and so on as you say, naggum has a lot of trouble destructuring nubbinisms.
mircea_popescu: that aside, there's a different serious problem : "Joseph Goebbels were _not_ concerned with propaganda towards the Jews. this is an historical fact." is what he says, but he says this in the exact manner of the man he otherplaces despises, "who forms a knowledge without having had the curiosity to study". the reason i even wrote http://trilema.com/2017/jud-suss/ is ~specifically because~ there's a lot of similar ignoramuses
mircea_popescu: with similar "historical fact". it's in no sense factual, goebbels' jewel, and the item for which he worked his ass off, has jew right in the fucking title.
mircea_popescu: leaving aside the remarkable poverty of reference, i'd like at least for the few popitems he uses to be at the fucking least correct!
mircea_popescu: it's true that hitler was a bit of a literalist, and kept liking these barely-cinematic mechanicist pieces of nonsense ; but that doesn't make the opposition stand like he tries to make it stand.
diana_coman: !!key Ente_
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/5FD302D8A5B3832F925BA58D55E8EAC92F0CFC0D.asc
asciilifeform: i was waiting for mircea_popescu to notice the bigger oddity
asciilifeform: or hm, nm, the 'last movie' is not 'suss' ( which is circa '40)
asciilifeform: naggum was speaking of 'kolberg' prolly.
mircea_popescu: prolly... but...
mircea_popescu: suss was exactly 1940. and the hell goebbels had to go through to get the cast (they were famous actors, and more interested in hollywood bux than anything) is a very fine entry point for one to understand just how weak and circumstantial the reich was, and just how much accident and fortune played into the good doctor's work
mircea_popescu: no, newton did not sit down to hate the jews.
mircea_popescu: and i find it superlatively dubious that "i have made a study" relies on having reviewed no original materials but read chomsky's as cliffnotes. this is no way to get anywhere, and i suspect a large portion of chomsky detractors are actually almost-intelligent folk who tried to use him in this manner, got hurt in the process, and decided to assign blame, if possible to the tool they misused. chomsky is fine, but not if you're
mircea_popescu: going to do this 12yo inane shit sorta thing.
mircea_popescu: you want to "study goebbels", you're going to review a lot of old celluloid reel, read journals, stuff like that. there's no substitute, wut.
asciilifeform: i'd be surprised if 'no original' , given the comment re 'I found was that (1) a whole bunch of nutcases thought that only neo-Nazis could be interested in Joseph Goebbels' works and movies...'
asciilifeform: prolly he did go and excavate reels.
mircea_popescu: perhaps.
asciilifeform: from beneath a tall pile of chomsky & other modernolade.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i think proposing goebbels is a sort of ziggler-skinner is dismissive to the man.
mircea_popescu: usual anachronism, "this toe sock works great as a soup starter so that's what it was". not THEN it wasn't lel. then it was a complicated thing. such as for isntance, a desire of the new socialist strep to make "culture just as good" as the guys they were trying to replace, landeschnekt and ritters dominating the army.
mircea_popescu: hitler blabbering about how the army betrayed him and shoulda killed them all like stalin (really, it was earlier than stalin time, but you can't say "like trotsky" can you now) is exactly a fruit off of this.
mircea_popescu: bluster and pretense aside, the original socialists were never all that secure in their "reich". at all points coulda ran into some republic and be spulberati off the flow of history exactly like the pantsuit in 2016.
asciilifeform: eh this is rather like 'at all points aids patient could grow white cells again and then fungus will die '
mircea_popescu: (no good equiv to ro "spulbera", it's built out of powder with the italian s' device (svenuto, sfortunato etc) to denote that which wind does to dust and power to incosequentialness)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: распылить
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is entirely no difference between usg pantsuit cca 2015 and germany nazi cca 1933.
mircea_popescu: one didn't make the hitler chancellor ; the other did. it's all.
asciilifeform: ( tho in modern parlance tends to be applied to paint, and other items that get literally sprayed using air )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform acceptabru.
asciilifeform: and all sudden reichs get built, in lenin's words , 'not from new brick but from the smashed planks of the old shithouse' or how did it go.
mircea_popescu: something like that.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the history of interwar germany is interesting as a topic of study, rather than a topic of conversational macguffins.
mircea_popescu: "oh if some fucktard who thinks he's a jew because his mother's an idiot says he is holocaustoffended ima say i studied goebbels!!1". wtf already.
mircea_popescu: moreover this whole "oh germany was starving"... dude, it's the 40s. new york was fucking starving, gimme a break. who wasn't starving ?
mircea_popescu: !~google pancasera manwantara
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Pancasera manvantara [1351 [B. S.] 1944] | Endangered Archives ...: <http://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-1-334>; Pancasera manvantara [1351 [B. S.] 1944] | Endangered Archives ...: <http://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP341-3-23>; Rashtra samgrama o pancasera manvantara : Amazon.co.uk ...: <https://www.amazon.co.uk/samgrama-pancasera-manvantara-Syamaprasada-Mukhopadhyaya/dp/8172935242>
mircea_popescu: and don't tell me "hey, it's only british empire when we want to pretend like largest in history, it's really its own thing at all other points", ima barf.
asciilifeform: wassis
mircea_popescu: bengal famine.
asciilifeform: aaa
asciilifeform: famine is as part of india as rivers of shit, neh
mircea_popescu: AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
mircea_popescu: 1940, kids were malnourished all over the world, the pretense that germany somehow stood out at any point is ridiculous.
asciilifeform: ( famine really goes with agrarianism , iron law , on account of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766429 . it's what their 'boom/bust cycle' loox like. )
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 18:15 mircea_popescu: there is nothing necessary about this cycle of wasteful idiocy. beat your swedish civilised wife whenever she deos the dumb.
mircea_popescu: rather.
mircea_popescu: and ESPECIALLY it goes with industrialization, which is to say,attempting to break out of it.
asciilifeform: aha i think we had this thread
mircea_popescu: the british don't really want to talk about the great potato famine ; and the usg likes to pretend the irish that ran off to new york didn't go through the exact same wringer.
mircea_popescu: in point of fact, there comes a time when the poor will be rendered for fat. it's what it is.
asciilifeform: the notable bit is that the brits used same exact recipe as stalin later
asciilifeform: ( there's ~1 recipe )
mircea_popescu: as if there's a set of recipes to choose from or what ?
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: anyway, but as to the matter at hand, they had a falling out over holocaust social game proper rules!!1
mircea_popescu: wutevers.
mircea_popescu: ahaha this is epic. josling : " Searching the sgml bib for your name produces 0 hits..." ; naggum : "Why make such a fool of yourself annoying people on purpose? What is /wrong/ with you? http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/biblio.html" ; we dutifully go check and indeed, grep of that page returns 0 naggums.
mircea_popescu: turns out josling was right ? moreover, even if it HAD returned some naggums... what degree of fool had josling made self ?
mircea_popescu: from naggum's own self-characterization, he was a not-particularily-wanted epicycle in the whole sgml thing. am i missing something ?
mircea_popescu: (this, for the record, was a 60yo at the time stanford guy. "You clearly are clueless and are not at all ashamed to demonstrate it." wrong putdown, seriously now.)
asciilifeform: y'know , it so happens that asciilifeform was bored the other night, and ended up walking into the #1 pantsuit-themed b00kshop in the city , and saw a , whaddayaknow, a 'history of bitcoin' , and guess who mentioned in it 0 times...
mircea_popescu: any actual history ?
mircea_popescu: but note that i don't give anyone the address to said bookshop if they seem confused as to who they're talking to.
asciilifeform: written by either shilbert or similar ( i fughet who ) , so lotta 'we pushed the sun uphill' 'history' mostly
asciilifeform: http://xml.coverpages.org/rcdataCTS1.html << there's a naggum for mircea_popescu .
asciilifeform: so not '0 hits'
asciilifeform: i suspect that the search at one time worked.
asciilifeform: ( http://www.oasis-open.org today points to xml.coverpages... )
asciilifeform: naggum was chair of 'SGML SIGhyper' , an iso subcommittee as i understand
asciilifeform: https://www.w3.org/blog/2009/06/for-erik-naggum << see also , another pot shard.
asciilifeform: http://xml.coverpages.org/naggumWhat.html << naggum re 'wtf is sgml'.
asciilifeform: these will have to suffice for nao, i'ma bbl
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the whole lulz here is that the link the man himself indicates fails to deliver./
mircea_popescu: i know why this is, obviously, but the important point is that this is a miserable, second hand knowledge, of ENTIRELY the same substrance as shilbert's.
mircea_popescu: and holy shit the broken, innumerable ways to protect character from parsing...
mircea_popescu: "What can I say? I wasted 6 years of my life on SGML and related technologies only to find that when I wanted to translate my experience and knowledge and significant grasp of this technology into a book that would teach what I had found to others, I had to look real hard at all the braindamaged things that I had been willing to sweep under the carpet and found, to my horror, that SGML, once understood, could not possibly be
mircea_popescu: worse implemented than SGML itself" << man spends six years trying to do useful work in non-#trilema world, discovers at the end of it all that no, his toaster can not be used to toast his own breakfast, thanks for playing, do come again.
mircea_popescu: should prolly be carved on graves.
deedbot: mats: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/JvVSB/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-15#1751998 << to followup on this, the decision is to negrate RagnarDanneskjol for utterly wasting my time with his nonsense.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-15 16:55 mircea_popescu: alright. that concludes this first phase, which you've survived. im guessing a decision will fall in about two weeks, i'll notify you by name here in either case. you can see it by looking for http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Amircea+%22robbinhood%22
mircea_popescu: !!rate RagnarDanneskjol -1 timewaster.
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/pfTJt/?raw=true
asciilifeform: who even was that
asciilifeform: digs in l0gz
asciilifeform: aa 'china'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-07#1766691 << it's not wholly unlike the old mpex.xyz dnsolade that today points to 'buy cardanocoin NAO!' etc
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 22:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the whole lulz here is that the link the man himself indicates fails to deliver./
asciilifeform: looks at the corpse of bitbet, with some suprise finds that it does not ~yet~ contain one of these
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-18#1658672 << example of subj )
a111: Logged on 2017-05-18 20:25 jurov: wtf http://mpex.co/history_of_bitcoin_stock_exchanges.html
mircea_popescu: lel
mircea_popescu: note that it's not me saying that ; for that matter i dun much link the vandalized mircea_popescu wikipedia page or any other such nonsense.
asciilifeform: earlier this (?) yr, possibly it was from prod from mircea_popescu , asciilifeform removed a buncha folx from blogroll pg ... for being dead
asciilifeform: ( oddly enuff some of the dead people, have working www, and the live people -- not , go figure )
mircea_popescu: i did a bunch of that too, discovered that out of 10k websites, ~0 remain
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun think it was vandalized yet when naggum was alive and pointing to it
asciilifeform: or was it
mircea_popescu: i have nfi.
mircea_popescu: minor lulz at the perishable nature of the hyper-tard-transfer-protocol ended up a major topic. i just snickered en passant!
asciilifeform: me neither. archaeology is a science of the sad and destroyed.
mircea_popescu: wasn't he working on exactly this not happening by his own account ?
asciilifeform: and yes naggum is buried in cement partly on account of the shattering of bridge that he himself had a hand in building
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: this was more or less always part of the tragedy of the d00d
asciilifeform: upstack : iirc nelson wanted a perma-storage-net . in 1970 . to this day we dun have it, because -- apparently -- too expensive ? or how else to explain that folx still whine from having to store 1(decimal-)MB per 10min
mircea_popescu: anyway, the principal problem is that he's not very good at arguing ; neither from a helping the preopinent nor from a produce useful record perspective. these are the two principal goals of conversation, i can scarcely imagine a third.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fundamental problem is that only the elite have any use for history ; the plebs generally want a "start over tomorrow" world.
asciilifeform: they sure do.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-04#1514935 << see also
a111: Logged on 2016-08-04 19:59 mircea_popescu: but it's certainly quite deep. the vermin doesn't merely aim to a comfortable existence, but more importantly to a memory-less situation.
mircea_popescu: indeed the zek paradise is very much that "loose shoes and warm place to shit in" historical african's paradise : if they could pick up a new woman every night and she'd be gone after cooking lunch every day ; if they had to drive to a new place to start work every monday ; if there was always a new beer in the cafeteria and a new show on tv with a new identical blondy lead... scl
asciilifeform: not convinced of this. zek is also very much creature of habit
asciilifeform: the new beer has to be substantially old.
mircea_popescu: yes, but structural repetition with "novel" form.
mircea_popescu: same blondy, new blondy.
trinque: the "born again in cheesus christ" thing points right to it
asciilifeform: oldwine in newbottle aha
mircea_popescu: hence all the "revolution" bs. o really, revolution in programming ?
asciilifeform: trinque: afaik that's generally a 1shot thing, neh
mircea_popescu: nah, can do it every other weekend
trinque: grants magical perpetual reborning
mircea_popescu: many churchlets.
asciilifeform: but do they ?
trinque: that's what the nightly sorries are about
mircea_popescu: i dunno. maybe. they do host "revivals" as a rthing
asciilifeform: i thought that was an empty token tho
mircea_popescu: aaanyways, in other lulz, poor shop here in poor quarter, "se reparan zapatos ; clinica de ropa ; jesu christo vive."
asciilifeform: lol clinica de ropa
mircea_popescu: term of art here
asciilifeform: sooo it's true, the fungus is eating ye olde catholistans ?
mircea_popescu: the catholocism-in-orclang IS the fungus to begin with.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform lives in a 'spanish' part of town , and was quite surprised to learn that most of the folx on his street go yes to church but no not to catholic church
asciilifeform: re orclang , that's when it fell down neh.
asciilifeform: '70s
mircea_popescu: just about.
mircea_popescu: you mean 1270s ?
asciilifeform: vatican2
asciilifeform: 1970s
mircea_popescu: sometime between the two
shinohai: Most of the dumb Indian hispanics from Central America around here go to evangelical churches, Mexis the majority Catholic here.
mircea_popescu: anyway, more generally, the idea that "the people" are some sort of thing, and to be catered to, IS the fungus.
asciilifeform: still not certain that anybody actually believes in 'thepeople' , rather than pretending to
asciilifeform: it's a mirage , like the other one touched on today, the concrete-thefuture
mircea_popescu: distinction without a difference ; do children believe in nightmares or merely pretend to, or merely the misfunctioning of their undeveloped brain conflates two things ?
asciilifeform: nfi
mircea_popescu: nor will we find out , nor will it matter.
asciilifeform: right after we find out how many, after all, angels fit on the pin.
ben_vulpes: unrelated to anything, i recently had the most amusing experience with a "bitcoin cash" wallet where it *insisted* on creating a zero-satoshi output.
shinohai: lol ben_vulpes which wallet was it?
ben_vulpes: "electron cash"
ben_vulpes: shoulda been the simplest possible transaction in the world, one output summing to the value of all wallet inputs less explicityly set miner fee.
ben_vulpes: it's what, 2018, and the people pushing altcoins are still struggling with arithmetic.
mircea_popescu: hard to fix anything by copy-pasting ancient windows ware.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: do you remember the article where you said something like "or the entrepreneurs will win and then there will be a decade of hedge funds making a killing on the opaque altcorn market before we kill them all slowly"?
mircea_popescu: yes. linked recently, http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-prices-bitcoin-inflexibility/#selection-117.0-117.160
ben_vulpes: tyyyyy
mircea_popescu: my pleasure.
mircea_popescu: this "emacs / xemacs reconciliation" is a tiresome painful fucking read. why the fuck would anyone consider merging xt in emacs ?! what is wrong with these people.
asciilifeform: xt?
mircea_popescu: i gather it to be the x toolkit thingee ?
mircea_popescu: like qt pre qt, i guess.
asciilifeform: tried to use it eons ago, barfed mightily
asciilifeform: i think i have the book still, propping up some piece of furniture
mircea_popescu: basically, a principled "emacs does not want or need window-decorations gtfo" out of rms would have been a lot better than his inept dithering
mircea_popescu: what does he imagine that he gains brownie points with someone somewhere for "cooperate" ? ffs.
asciilifeform: xemacs has 0 to do with the emacs e.g. asciilifeform today runs under x11.
asciilifeform: 0.
asciilifeform: it's a bitcoincash of trad emacs.
asciilifeform: i thought there was a thread re subj.
mircea_popescu: the original discussion cca 1993 was centered around this\
asciilifeform: buncha derps in 1990s ran off to mikehearn emacs, back in the day.
asciilifeform: the trad emacs worxfine under x11 , since asciilifeform was a student, and prolly before
asciilifeform: i even have colour in it ( purely for personal enjoyment , repainted to resemble ye olde borland turbo )
mircea_popescu: anyway, very much systemd-"debate"-in-a-can
asciilifeform: xemacs was actually the first systemdism i ever ran into head on
asciilifeform: i asked 'what is this, why there are 2 emacses on this box'
asciilifeform: brother said sumthinglike 'here's the emacs and here's the taiwan emacs'
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/color-emacs.jpg << photo, for the curious
mircea_popescu: my borland was thicker font
asciilifeform: noshit
asciilifeform: mine too, given that it lived in 80x25 and used the spiffy nonscalable vga font
mircea_popescu: in fact, i'm generally unhappy with the thin fonts everywhere. terms and borland back in the day had touched greatness wrt glyph thickness
asciilifeform: yes!!
asciilifeform: i fiddled with this nonsense for ages and gave up.
asciilifeform: living without good font even nao.
mircea_popescu: i generally set up everything to more or less correct proportions, at terrible cost
mircea_popescu: there's a screencap of my yahoo messenger config in this vein floating about somewhere even
asciilifeform: i could prolly spend rest of life fighting with the font config and still not get anything as comfortable as dos font.
asciilifeform: ( tried many times to manually rasterize it to fit my display, result was always shit , perhaps my hands grow from arse, or perhaps not actually possible )
asciilifeform: if anybody's ever pulled it off, i'd like to hear about it.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575064 << thread. seealso.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:06 asciilifeform: of all the plagues discussed in this thread, i'd say fonts are the mildest, it is at this very minute quite trivial to operate a machine with 2-3 fonts installed , with ~0 surgery
asciilifeform: err,http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575068
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:08 asciilifeform: incidentally 'scalable font' technology was imho a failure:
asciilifeform: imho lispm font was also notbad , https://www.ifis.uni-luebeck.de/~moeller/symbolics-info/development-environment/debugger.gif
asciilifeform: but again cannot be made to look proper on arbitrary display.
mircea_popescu: meh, too thin and sans.
asciilifeform: i prefer the classic vga fat chars also.
mircea_popescu: https://winworldpc.com/res/img/screenshots/20-cb5d8e11ea5ade2ec05bb6c76ff7895d-Borland%20CPP%202.0%20-%20About.png < item
asciilifeform: aha iet
asciilifeform: it
mircea_popescu: come to think of it the gold on blue worked well too
asciilifeform: nuffin to do with borland per se tho, it's the standard vga 80x25 font
mircea_popescu: yeah.
asciilifeform: https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist << turned up this. prolly moar than anybody cares to know re subj.
mircea_popescu: i can;t fucking believe jwz and daveg are seriously discussing doubleclicking wiuth the spacebar
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is wrong with people.
asciilifeform: waiwaat
asciilifeform: where
mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/apJyi#selection-8223.1-8223.153
asciilifeform: nuts.
mircea_popescu: basically, technocucks so fucking petrified of their emotions and the structure of power, they will retreat into bikeshedding as a comfortable substitute for sanity.
mircea_popescu: "oh but mp, before you reinvent the wheel you should read the other things other people did before" "motherfucking hell what if I CAN NOT READ THESE PEOPLE!"
asciilifeform: these people have about as much to do with the actual history of Things People Did Before (tm) as the bird shit on the hood of my car has with the engine.
mircea_popescu: really, you're striking david gillespie ?
asciilifeform: do i know who that is ?
mircea_popescu: lisp guy.
asciilifeform: looks in ancient notes...
mircea_popescu: cl.el etc
asciilifeform: loox like he write some emacsola
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: not exactly archimedes.
asciilifeform: if not him -- next d00d would've.
asciilifeform: iirc jwz also wrote sumthing or other.
asciilifeform: and esr. etc
mircea_popescu: so sgml is a flaming pile of shit, oda is a waste of paper and i even read french, what exactly are these wheels one's supposed to not reinvent ?
asciilifeform: sexpr... 1958
asciilifeform: pretty much last time anyffingrelevant happened.
mircea_popescu: isn't this definitionally what naggum proposes one not do ?
mircea_popescu: "go back to basics and start over" ?
asciilifeform: sure is. observe where it got him.
asciilifeform: d00d thought he lived in something like a working civilization, worth preserving, etc
asciilifeform: turns out!
mircea_popescu: so tell me how is pstp going to work without a gns to reference container content names ?
asciilifeform: this is already bridge too far
mircea_popescu: ok, tell me how an article on trilema'd look.
asciilifeform: i expect very similar to how already loox.
mircea_popescu: ie, html ?
asciilifeform: i thought q was re external appearance to naked eye.
mircea_popescu: i'm not asking how it'd be rendered, it god damn ed be rendered the same. im asking...
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: answering this q would require having solved several fundamental problems that asciilifeform has not solved yet.
asciilifeform: i'd read mircea_popescu's take on it. or for that matter trinque's, iirc he had one buried in a desk drawer
mircea_popescu: lmao so after stringing along "oh, we have spent so much, we hope to still work together, tell us how" for a year, gabriel is like "Unfortunately, GNU Emacs 19 is not constructed following modern programming practice - even though there are procedural interfaces to some functionality groups, one could not say that abstraction boundaries are maintained. The mish-mash of data structures is just too clumsy and incoherent to make
mircea_popescu: life for the maintainer easy. This is proven by the fact that Arceneaux was unable to add the extensions we needed to an early version of GNU Emacs 19 given somewhat over a year's time to do it and by the fact that it has taken you and Blandy so long to get GNU Emacs 19 out.
mircea_popescu: We believe that the merge in the other direction is the proper way to do things, and this is the course we shall pursue. There are things that you have done to GNU Emacs 19 that are good, and we believe that the best way to proceed is to clean them up and put them in Lucid Emacs 19. Maintainability is important to us because even though GNU Emacs 19 has no warranty, we must support a warranty on our commercial product which i
mircea_popescu: ncludes Lemacs as a component.
mircea_popescu: I think this is not a good outcome for the Emacs user community, and I hate to have to criticize the implementation of GNU Emacs 19, but at some point clean code and good structure counts more than a false sense of parsimony, and that point has been reached."
mircea_popescu: well thank you bitch, you ~could~ have said this a year ago and saved everyone the hassle. o wait, cuz needed to appear all humble and shit for a year to poach users / devs i see i see.
asciilifeform: it gets worse. much worse.
mircea_popescu: it's like watching middle class single parent 12 yos at work, mendacious manipulative little shits that imagine their nonsense is entirely opaque to anyone and everyone.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in ~principle~ a container could tell you what class of procedure it wants to be eaten by ; and gns could tell you which v-trees implement it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu nailed this one in an old article which presently escapes me. a buncha shoemakers are missing apprentices , whole buncha streets are missing their sweepers, while the jwzs birdshit on software
mircea_popescu: well this is richard gabriel. which...
mircea_popescu: (original lucid guy, and other things)
asciilifeform: aha, he is interesting case
asciilifeform: had some sort of lisp-related nervous break
asciilifeform: decided he is 'poet' after that.
asciilifeform: actually obtained and tried to read d00d's b00ks...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-09#1339543
a111: Logged on 2015-12-09 11:38 mircea_popescu: http://dreamsongs.com/ <<< how to be retarded. today, richard "i don't have a name and i was born without a face, here's some salmon background" gabriel.
asciilifeform: him aha
asciilifeform: 100% imho writeoff. went mad.
mircea_popescu: lotta that going around.
mircea_popescu: anyway, so : a container could tell you it's a document, and it contains a text, a song and a picture. should that container end up on a list of things you're interested in, your client could then look up what to do with documents, and how to parse texts, songs and images.
mircea_popescu: then it could tell you "well, here's that thing you wanted in a browser, because that's where it says it goes, and we couldn't process the song part because nobody you trust signed an implementation of anything on the list of song things, but the text is there as per so-and-so-textizer signed by x y and z"
asciilifeform: this is roughly what the xml people tried to do
mircea_popescu: and everyone else.
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: most recently bastardized by the urbit folx
asciilifeform: but it comes back, more or less continuously, like daedal's wings
mircea_popescu: "and the image is in the list of things you don't want so we omitted that also"
mircea_popescu: and indeed, management of the implicit semantics in all this will be the end of the world.
trinque: worked under a semantic-web-head for about 4-5yrs, built several incarnations of this kind of meta-browser monstrosity
trinque: dunno it ends up being any more complicated than existing DHTs but for the urge to make a giant, complex, systemdtron with myriad ways of describing the same things.
asciilifeform: trinque: put it in writing pleeeez?
trinque: not nearly ready
asciilifeform: really gotta write these things
asciilifeform: or they get lost
trinque: plenty of bad implementations already written
asciilifeform: not proggy !
asciilifeform: the war story
mircea_popescu: trinque the disaster i perceive is this : that a) the worst world is to have a lot of ad-hoc implementation of sexpr-datastructs but b) the cheapest way is a and c) the complete construction is unachievable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform noodling phase yet, dun worry, nothing in my hand will get lost.
mircea_popescu: let's put this in different terms : the happiest life is, empty planet, where man can go picking berries / quals/womenz as he feels inclined. everything fits well and all is good. the necessary correlate is that the petri dish slowly fills, at which point incompatibles will result in perpetual war and strife. all is not so good.
mircea_popescu: the evident macro-solution would be to construct a filling of the petri dish out of non-overlapping parts, but a) this will bother everyone if only a little bit, by cramping their style and b) thje development and maintenance cost for this is the textbook example of http://trilema.com/2016/honor-societies-vs-respect-societies-or-how-the-disaster-of-commons-sunk-the-western-world/
mircea_popescu: ie, the onme thing everyone wants to defect.
asciilifeform: errybody wants 'the ecstasy but not the laundry', newsat11
mircea_popescu: systems where this applies are definitionally broken.
asciilifeform: i dun think i've been to the planet where they keep the nonbroken ones yet
mircea_popescu: let's look at it again.
mircea_popescu: so gns is basically just a lengthy registrar of assignments, a=b sorta thing, signed by keys.
mircea_popescu: there's no obligation on anyone to maintain any particular portion of it, or to communicate it to anyone -- can be run locally just as well (in practice, equiv rto "only trust my signature").
mircea_popescu: this much can be implemented without bothering anyone. right ?
trinque: nods
asciilifeform: already implemented as buncha specialcases, neh ( e.g. v )
mircea_popescu: or deedbot. okay. moving on.
mircea_popescu: v is basically just a lengthy pile of code trees, made out of patches also signed by keys ; in practice its coinvolved with the v-application, which can press etc, but let's here distinguish.
mircea_popescu: as for the gns above, no obligation.
mircea_popescu: this idem already exists, and is not getting in anyone's way.
mircea_popescu: now let's look at how things work. mircea_popescu decides one day he wants to find out about sgml, and therefore instructs his client.
asciilifeform: brb
mircea_popescu: 2. the client queries whichever gns it is configured to, and inquires as to contacting machines which hold data related to this item. it receives a list of them, on the basis of what signatures mircea_popescu told it to trust signed.
mircea_popescu: it then proceeds to, for every item on that list,
mircea_popescu: 3. open link to machine, explain what it is it wants, get an answer in the form of "here's a list of document containers, which do you want". it explains which it wants (such as "all" or w/e) and it gets a container containing them. maybe it's gzipped or whatever.
mircea_popescu: 4. in all cases, a container consists of a tag and binary data ; the tag section of the gns tells it what v trees are acceptable applications upon that data.
mircea_popescu: 5. client proceeds to build what it can (if set to, and as per signatures again) and present the pile.
mircea_popescu: in this way, someone who wants to read unicode will accept containers of that type and have in his seals sigs of people who wrote such a tree ; and who wants to see (what now is) .avi or .gif or etc similarily.
mircea_popescu: ie, the whole thing can be built out of parts without getting in anyone's way whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: i don't have to have the people who want to use unicode to agree to anything in particular ahead of time, and if tomorrow they decide to call it fuck-bush instead, they can and nothing gets broken
mircea_popescu: there's no requirement that the gns even be properly global ; it's your job to make it global-locally and that's that.
trinque: this 1) agreeing ahead of time with pantsuit council on what schemas exist or 2) infinitely nested lookup tables for viewers is exactly what killed the prior idiots
mircea_popescu: yeah, but it seems to me neither is involved here ?
trinque: not at all. this works.
mircea_popescu: you can make upon a private lan the agreement that "unicode" is how you call the tga decoder, and lo and behold... you read tga with the unicode displayer now.
mircea_popescu: so in the atomic case, practically overengineered but for the sake of understanding each other : each v tree should simply say it wants to be pressed by a v presser, and the client should inquire wtf that is and get one.
trinque: it also leaves space for *multiple* hypertext document viewers, many as you like.
mircea_popescu: obviously we all do this manually at present, but we really utterly don't want to.
mircea_popescu: trinque many as you can be bothered to sign yes.
mircea_popescu: obviously the fact that a bitcoin txn container will come with "this takes bitcoin" will not result in you recompiling bitcoin for each tx -- you already have it ;
mircea_popescu: but the first time you run into one -- yes, it would.
mircea_popescu: and that "bitcoin" can mean whatever the fuick you choose it should mean.
mircea_popescu: so announcement of a new partch would be author changing his gns entry for X from press-to-q to press-to-k ; if user is disinterested he jkust gets dragged along, otherwise if user requires he sign local copy he stays put.
mircea_popescu: all transparent like and everything.
mircea_popescu: no more need to run javascript (ie, unsecured remote code) ; no more need to "ask people to upgrade" ; no more anything of the idiotic sort. if i want a cuntoo/mp-wp/we it is now i have to ask here, and maybne someone produces one. this could just as well be handled by the machines, it's a machine task.
asciilifeform: !#s kyristor
a111: 27 results for "kyristor", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=kyristor
asciilifeform: ^ ancient asciilifeform crackpottery , re subj
mircea_popescu: item eminently doesn't deal with "programs" or "applications" or anything ; it's a proper url system, it locates resources. can put in the gns that you're a dentist in kennebunkport, maine, and if i need a dentist...
mircea_popescu: rather than the current "google search" utterly useless bullshit.
mircea_popescu: at least that way i have someone to tell his dentist sucked ; and he might negrate the douche. or vice-versa.
mircea_popescu: gets a new rating, and NECESSARILY more business, because now more people can find him.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the major change from http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567932 is obviously the abandoment of the fixed petri dish. it dun have to have a "final word" solution, overalpping local ones are fine.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 19:06 asciilifeform: Framedragger: note that this was the laughable piece, 'majority votes', i had nfi how to cut the knot of sybil etc.
mircea_popescu: in a sense moving the problem away into where it belongs.
mircea_popescu: oh, obviously : there's no possiblity of name conflicts, either. the fact that my key defines "usg" as x and trump's key defines "usg" as y allows us both to live our respective delusions happily.
asciilifeform: q is not how to make this happen. it already happens. q is how to mechanize it properly.
mircea_popescu: moreover, kinda too soon to mechanize it just yet.
asciilifeform: possibly.
mircea_popescu: but if i were to guess, i'd guess this is where it's headed.
asciilifeform: it does need the fast ffa, among other items.
asciilifeform: ( and gossip layer prolly gotta come first, also )

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