crtdaydreams: thehorrors: apropos.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-29 13:30:15 signpost: the correct social topology is human-sized, e.g. the number of reasonable pest peerings.
thehorrors: you know what maybe I am questioning this because I am thinking more about 1-to-1 communication and not say something like IRC channel scale. In my mind it is more about a two-address network rather than a group chat. Maybe that's the wrong use case for pest - but that's exactly what my original question was about
vex: ru gay?
crtdaydreams: thehorrors: your original question doesn't reflect this whatsoever
vex: pest is exactly perfect for peer comms on trb
bitbot: Logged on 2022-07-06 22:23:41 thehorrors: hi asciilifeform. I was reading the pest spec. Wanted to know your thoughts about the use case for it - I can't say it is completely clear to me
phf: thehorrors: this is fundamental internet, you can't peer two peers that have dynamic ips, without having a third peer with a static ip
vex: there is no going back
phf: with pest, presumably, the two immediate solutions would be to host your own intermediary, or else use pestnet as your peering network
thehorrors: phf: thank you, that's what I wanted to clarify. The question that arises: what is the advantage of pest compared to other solutions in such situation?
vex: make a proper question
phf: thehorrors: depends on the kind of other solutions you have in mind
vex: run away. the dude has a hectic crossbow
thehorrors: well, if I have to host my own intermediary, I could host my own email server for example. Then communicate with pgp-encrypted messages with others. Otherwise, any overlay network could work - like i2p. Maybe the requirement of "fits in head" kicks in here - fair enough
thehorrors: then there are things like tox, maybe even jami. Gnunet looks interesting, although it does not "fit in head" by any stretch of imagination
phf: thehorrors: right, from that perspective there aren't any. could e.g. bounce over multi-hop ssh into a talkd server on a machine in cambodia. i look at it as building a pillow fort with frens. gnunet or tox or jami are not my frens.
vex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbkInTnNQ28 mheanwile in cambodia
thehorrors: hmm, I suppose that makes sense. Not sure how you managed to articulate this simple idea without calling me a replicant, but thank you phf
phf: i am sometimes generous
vex: too many
thehorrors: I wonder then could this pillow fort be even simpler?
phf: well, there's some ongoing conversations (though maybe i misunderstood, because didn't pay close attention), that maybe irc requirements baked in are an overhead, but you can build subset of pest that will talk to net without being spec conformant
phf: but also at this level of thought shaping you're basically running into the fact that there's tons of existing protocols and solutions that could be used or shoehorned or influence your decisions or whatever, and simply saying "i don't care, i'm just using pest" is a kind of gordian knot cutting
phf: "why custom packet format when could use 9p!!" "but naggum said it's proper to use asn.1 for everything!" etc
signpost: it's also polite to at least load the thing into one's own head before asking others to critique it for you.
thehorrors: signpost: tell me more about politeness
signpost: the problem with the boyish voice is even 40 year olds use it; who can tell.
vex: sup piglet
vex: squire in the fire
phf: signpost: hey can you post random to pest
signpost: or literally the exact string?
phf: i might be wrong but i think blatta doesn't update your AT if you send it garbage packet
phf: but i'm also too lazy to see what the log says..
phf: but basically if i spin up a connection and just start sending garbage right away, i don't get any new messages. i only start getting new messages after i post something (or presumably if i get-data but i haven't tried that yet)
phf: *too lazy to see what the spec says
vex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvCUmH92HfU meanwhile, in gondwanaland
signpost: I haven't tried sending a garbage packet. looks like at least some folks ATs updated when I sent messages from my new IP.
signpost rereading what current spec says about PROD
phf: well, asciilifeform's station definitely broadcasts garbage packets (or rather "ignore messages"), so i suspect it's some default behavior?
signpost: could also be a bunch of different blatta patch versions.
signpost: there is a rubbish_interval_seconds in my blatta's KNOB settings
phf: ah there you go
phf: oh it's possibly because my ignore message is malformed
signpost: meanwhile I'm an idiot, and the deedbot blatta was running in a tmux
phf: i only put correct timestamp, but then it's random selfchain, netchain, nick and text. but the one's i'm getting from asciilifeform have 0 netchain and selfchain and the nick is "asciilifeform"
phf: signpost: is asciilifeform still peering?
phf: can you try posting something..
signpost: yeah I've been posting messages. just sent a few
signpost: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=wNR2 << current AT from where I sit.
phf: yeah, nevermind i broke something
phf: signpost: i come to you once again, to ask for a random message in pest :>
phf: i'm pretty sure i crashed asciilifeform's node..
bitbot: (pest) 2022-07-07 signpost: 4, which is the most random of numbers.
signpost: haha possible, I haven't had a packet from his in a bit
phf: yeap :>
phf: well, my job is here done
phf: oh i know why, it's an encoding issue again. besides decoding utf-8 one must also perhaps check for decoding issues
phf: i thought i was sending ignore message, but i was actually sending broadcast, with random binary payload
phf: thimbronion: you need to also wrap your foo.decode('utf-8') in try: ... catch UnicodeDecodeError: ...
crtdaydreams: vex: know any good ctfs other than overthewire?
crtdaydreams is thoroughly not interested in skid shitware e.g. kali lincox
shinohai: crtdaydreams: If I may interject https://github.com/apsdehal/awesome-ctf
crtdaydreams: shinohai: thankies, I've seen this somewhere before but must've lost it from bookmarks... might be bookmarked on my lappy
shinohai: Yeah I had it bookmarked, just never got around to digging into it in earnest. xD
crtdaydreams: :D same lol
crtdaydreams: my todo.org has "organize bookmarks" somewhere buried underneath the bits
shinohai: Kali blows, and gets worse every release it appears. Backtrack linux was actually nice back in the day for what it was.
shinohai: (iirc Kali now ships with *no root account* !
crtdaydreams: imo all these "pentest distros" suffer extreem bloat
crtdaydreams: I actually had somewhere at .png wallpaper of an ms paint rendition of the kali logo, "kali lincox, the louder u r, the less u hear"
crtdaydreams: I would dearly love to have it again, probably lost to bitrot
shinohai: TOP KEK @ wallpaper
shinohai: crtdaydreams: This it? https://i.redd.it/3c58zbm82jl21.jpg
crtdaydreams: ye, but i had an inverted copy aswell
shinohai: I'd totally make own .iso fork called kali lincox with that in there.
crtdaydreams: mebbe it's been done and we can strip the image from it :D
crtdaydreams: I do remember meeting a guy that had done something similar, it might've just been apart of a setup script though
crtdaydreams: i might still have it, sec
crtdaydreams: HAHA YES
crtdaydreams: shinohai: http://0x0.st/oQxy.jpg
shinohai wonders how many folx watcher "Mr. Robot" and thought Kali instantly turned you into Elliot Alderson .....
crtdaydreams: haven't had the privilege of trolling one in the wild, but in containment the experience is nominally "lmgtfy" and "rtfm||gtfo"
crtdaydreams: "no you cannot be hacked through a jpeg"
crtdaydreams: shinohai: ever seen westworld?
shinohai: Nah never seen westworld is it any good?
shinohai prolly knows more current shows airing on Univision than on English-language TV .....
crtdaydreams: yeah, first coupla seasons excellent, by (i think it's called studio 4?) but then different producer takes over towards the end and it becomes a bit cliche, I haven't read the book but it's well worth considering.
crtdaydreams: It's a HBO series
crtdaydreams: nite shinohai o/
shinohai: bon sommeil o/
asciilifeform: lol blatta still utf-crashable eh
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110728 << subj is beaten painfully, pedantically, to death in sect. 1 of spec. if after reading this still think 'wai, wtf', pestronics prolly aint for you
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-06 23:12:21 thehorrors: I am thinking more about "how is it different compared to alternatives" - what are the benefits?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110747 << if 'there are none', you've nobody to talk to, lol! but in fact not necessary for all stations (or, interestingly, even ~any~) to have static ip, so long as you can reach ~somebody~.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-06 23:30:30 thehorrors: what if there are none or none of them have a static address?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110798 << could also, similarly, use carrier pigeons, or human couriers, or smoke signals, lol, nobody's stopping you
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 00:27:54 thehorrors: well, if I have to host my own intermediary, I could host my own email server for example. Then communicate with pgp-encrypted messages with others. Otherwise, any overlay network could work - like i2p. Maybe the requirement of "fits in head" kicks in here - fair enough
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110807 << see also. irc frontend aint in any way fundamental to pestronics, and its inclusion in the spec is a temporary wartime measure.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 00:36:20 phf: well, there's some ongoing conversations (though maybe i misunderstood, because didn't pay close attention), that maybe irc requirements baked in are an overhead, but you can build subset of pest that will talk to net without being spec conformant
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-06-20 asciilifeform: had a thought recently, that just about all of the gnarly embargo buffer logic in pest protocol is only req'd because irc frontend is a 'teletype', i.e. immutable
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-06 13:48:07 asciilifeform: included the irc knobs so as to remove 'blocking' problem of writing clients, guis, etc. but is certainly possible to drive a pestron via a dedicated interface w/out ircism
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110799 << asciilifeform walked around for many yrs looking at heathen (nominally) 'p2p' items, errywhere found some moxyesque absurdities/atrocities (e.g. acceptance of heavy memory/cpu load from strangers ; sslism; bernsteinism; and, more often than not, sham-'p2p' where some nodes
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 00:30:46 thehorrors: then there are things like tox, maybe even jami. Gnunet looks interesting, although it does not "fit in head" by any stretch of imagination
asciilifeform: impose hierarchical control, or, in same vein, dnsism) hence attempting a civilized solution.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110808 << initially asciilifeform had a very concrete problem -- 'how do i announce rack outages if dulapnet lives in selfsame rack?' -- and tried (with help from signpost et al) to shoehorn classical irc. turned out that in fact the shoehorn dun fit, irc impose
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 00:39:17 phf: but also at this level of thought shaping you're basically running into the fact that there's tons of existing protocols and solutions that could be used or shoehorned or influence your decisions or whatever, and simply saying "i don't care, i'm just using pest" is a kind of gordian knot cutting
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-19 17:24:10 asciilifeform: whole idea was born because there , initially , were to be other irc relayes in dulapnet. and then asciilifeform et al finally read through whole rfc , and realized that it is impossible to make a all-to-all irc network.
asciilifeform: s central points of failure no matter how you cut it.
asciilifeform: wasn't aboutta 'let's talk on aol' and so then this.
asciilifeform: thimbronion ftr had almost identical idea in parallel and baked an early pre-pest even before asciilifeform posted spec.
asciilifeform: imho 'make proper p2p net with wot peers' is a rather obv. idea. it is only the 'devil in details' that aint 100% obv., there are practical headaches implicit in the problem space.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110823 << ftr current blatta not yet has 'prod', 'addr cast', or nat piercing support in general.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 00:59:33 signpost: rereading what current spec says about PROD
phf: asciilifeform: i'm more saying that when you're rolling your own little protocols, there's a lot of possibiliy for bike shedding i.e. using off the shelf cryptography or serialization e.g. plan9 people would just route 9p over everything (instead of custom message types), etc.
asciilifeform: phf: there's over9000 ways to bake it, theoretically. in practice tho if you want (and asciilifeform does) 1-packet friend-or-foe distinguishability, yer stuck with rather tight space and will end up with something quite similar to the given item no matter how you do it
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110845 << or you might just want to add b.decode('utf-8',errors='replace')
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 01:41:54 phf: thimbronion: you need to also wrap your foo.decode('utf-8') in try: ... catch UnicodeDecodeError: ...
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110855 << lamerware 'for seek00rity professionals' that includes e.g. systemd is a fountain of lulz
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 06:19:37 crtdaydreams: imo all these "pentest distros" suffer extreem bloat
thimbronion: asciilifeform: stack trace would be nice if possible
thimbronion: phf: ty for the suggestions.
phf: i'm getting a bunch of getdata requests from asciilifeform's station, is it possible that blatta generates getdata for ignore messages?
phf: or maybe those garbage messages that crashed the utf wrote hashes to db before attempting to do utf decode?
phf: ah no looking at code my garbage messages would've had 0 selfchain
phf: so what gives
thimbronion: phf: currently blatta will spam all peers with GETDATA requests if a packet with a broken is received from any peer
thimbronion: *broken chain
phf: ah ok
phf: what is selfchain hash256 of? the entire red packet, or just the message part?
phf: thimbronion, asciilifeform
asciilifeform: phf: message part
phf: aye works
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110910 << sadly lost in shell scrollback, grr. ( asciilifeform still uses unadorned 'xterm' for nearly errything )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 10:45:56 thimbronion: asciilifeform: stack trace would be nice if possible
asciilifeform: next time will paste.
asciilifeform: ( phf when you have a chance go ahead & shoot it again )
whaack_temp: !e view-height
trbexplorer: block_height: 744035
trbexplorer: mins_since_last_block: 8
phf: asciilifeform: winnuked
phf: should be down with `UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0xfe in position 0: invalid start byte`
asciilifeform: ty phf
asciilifeform: phf et al: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=xb26 << barflog
phf: asciilifeform: that's weird, is your station up to date? because i thought with thimbronion's recent fixes there should be a utf decode there..
asciilifeform entertained by hilarious bug in xterm paste where lines wrapped
asciilifeform: phf: 9976
signpost: pyc files?
signpost: least favorite python footgun right there.
phf: maybe not, looking at thimbronion's patches http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-16#1107247 it doesn't particular line
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 22:55:48 thimbronion: http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/9976-fecal-sprincle.vpatch http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/9976-fecal-sprincle.vpatch.thimbronion.sig << for those who got blown up by the smiley bomb
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-07#1008701 << seems to work in this case at least
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-07 awt[asciilifeform]: 滚