vex: [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-27#1054163] better get two
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-27 14:54:52 shinohai: Does precisely what I need it to do.
vex: [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-27#1054141] <<< theres a nonzero chance mp glanced off the ionoshpre on his way to heaven
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-27 14:33:41 asciilifeform: mildly curious wtf this is for (if anyffin) -- finished 'by inertia' after hitlerkaput? or eulorism still in some sense going (funded by whom?) or what
vex: hanbot et all can be happy with thier new tis, but they must aknowlege the possibility
vex: sunday session with vex
vex: if you can feek em bae, let a bee sting it
vex: sunday sessions
vex: go go google
thestringpuller: shinohai: when did you become a coomer? (referencing twitter)
shinohai: thestringpuller: When have I *not* been is the real question?
billymg: asciilifeform: i've got a pretty clean new box now using upstream along with your ban list (typing from weechat on here currently) but it seems X requires dbus so i'm sort of stuck there at the moment
billymg: it looks like at one point you had a recipe for configuring X without dbus but the referenced paste is dead now
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-03-03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the given magic will take you to, e.g., fully-functioning x11 emacs, irc clients, etc. that build sans dbus.
billymg: i'm trying to decide if it's worth it for this box (again, this is going to be for doing bitdash and mp-wp development, doesn't have to be military grade) or if i should just unmask dbus
asciilifeform: billymg: you include "-dbus" in USE and when emerging things, --nodeps , and resolve all (yes) config eggogs manually.
asciilifeform: which is why took asciilifeform weeks.
asciilifeform: billymg: neither xorg nor any of its deps ~actually~ link against it (in fact i'm not certain that it even comes with linkable libs), the dependency is bogus
asciilifeform: another way to resolve it would be to manually edit it out of the ports (and then rehash'em) but i did the long way.
billymg: asciilifeform: thanks. qq re: USE flags in make.conf: after changing, `emerge --newuse` sufficient to load new values?
billymg: or does --newuse apply to something else
asciilifeform: billymg: i normally 'source /etc/make.conf' and ordinary emerge.
asciilifeform: alternatively can USE="..." emerge... on commandline.
asciilifeform: billymg: keep in mind that virtually all emerge --nodeps ... attempts fail on 1st (2nd... 10th..) try
asciilifeform: you end up manually doing the work of the deps resolver
billymg: asciilifeform: got it, i had already included a -dbus flag in USE and got the same error. will try with --nodeps
asciilifeform: ( why do this ? well, on a well-used gentoo box, with decade+ of upstream rot as well, the resolver doesn't work worth half a shit, goes in endless circles... )
asciilifeform: gentoo, 'the worst' linux, 'except for all the others'(tm)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054340 << >> https://archive.is/VA3ov
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 14:35:12 billymg: it looks like at one point you had a recipe for configuring X without dbus but the referenced paste is dead now
shinohai: I always use `-p` flag before emergin package to see what shit it's gonna pull in and see if I can tweak USE flags, etc. accordingly.
asciilifeform: shinohai: this is only useful on a box where no circular wedges
asciilifeform: ( on mind it nets a 5+min wheel spinning and 3km of barfola )
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's verdict from his recent experiments is that yes -- it ~is~ possible to bake a 'gentoo as it was in 2007' 100% working item, outta the current morass. but not trivially, and to keep it functioning is full-time work for at least 2 people.
asciilifeform: ('functioning' here meaning 'installable in the traditional gentoo way', vs. freezedried dulap-style binary image)
asciilifeform: (... and with working portage tree)
asciilifeform: these two people do not exist, and so there aint gonna be such a gentoo.
billymg: asciilifeform: configure: error: systemd-logind requested, but D-Bus is not installed.
asciilifeform: billymg: you gotta ban it
billymg: ^ after a few rounds of manually installing missing deps
asciilifeform: how, was linked in log, lemme find
asciilifeform: ( do NOT permit systemd-logind, it is a supposedly-neutered but in fact complete copy of systemd , that the traitorous gentoo maintainers force-install on explicitly 'non-systemd' setup)
asciilifeform sick and tired of the expiring pastes; signpost do you suppose it's possible to mark pastes which appear in log as non-expiring..?
asciilifeform will paste, for perma-log:
billymg: ty asciilifeform
asciilifeform: billymg: np
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $48850.55
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698168
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=698167
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.114s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698168
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.094s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=698167
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.257s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698168
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : Alive: (0.294s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698168
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : Alive: (0.332s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698168
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Alive: (0.700s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698168
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : Alive: (0.090s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698167 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Alive: (0.539s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=698168 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.554s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698167 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.884s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698167
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length! (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
signpost: asciilifeform: no, I'm not hosting pastes forever.
asciilifeform: signpost: fair'nuff. asciilifeform would happily emplace said script on own box, however, if signpost publishes same.
asciilifeform: wat's the grand total mass of pastes to date (incl. #t era) ? i'd be surprised if even 1GB
asciilifeform: ( ideally the way it oughta work is, paste GC'd in, say, 5min, unless link appears in log )
signpost: hasn't to do with weight, but with denying endless resource usage to all-comers.
signpost: and yeah, you can have the paste script. will snag for ya in a bit.
asciilifeform: not urgent matter imho
asciilifeform: but is ftr on asciilifeform's multi-km 'wish list'
signpost: lulzily simple, oughta be able to drop it into a dir on your blog box or something.
signpost: (also, somebody just write an even-shitty DHT, and let that be the proper archival location for all time)
signpost rowing in that direction also, but imho better for many candidates for infrastructure than 0 or 1.
asciilifeform: signpost: ty!
asciilifeform: loox pretty simple. ( the gc part i expect , will be the tricky bit, when i finally get a chance to do this.. )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054419 << ftr, imho the pill here.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 16:10:22 signpost: (also, somebody just write an even-shitty DHT, and let that be the proper archival location for all time)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-27 14:55:03 asciilifeform: ftr the properly generalized item vtron is a shadow of, looks like this, rather than like 'git' etc abortions.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-03-19 12:32:20 asciilifeform: why the hell is a typical public www bound to 1 box? specifically, why could not exist as an auto-mirrorable directory of signed material ?
billymg: well, some progress...
billymg: i used that guy's guide to rebuild openrc from his custom ebuild, then used his xorg ebuild and was able to build that as well
billymg: i think something might've gotten fucked up with ncurses though, i'm seeing strange/stuck characters in weechat and links, e.g. │
billymg: also, i'm now trying to get startx actually working, and looking at the gentoo guide for non-root-x it seems like i need to have at least elogind (which i think i removed because the xorg-server ebuild on his github wanted to pull in dbus if either systemd or elogind were present)
billymg: ahh, it's some | like character being displayed as a 'aOA' (but with ^ accents over each letter), among other strangeness
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 18:22:06 billymg: i think something might've gotten fucked up with ncurses though, i'm seeing strange/stuck characters in weechat and links, e.g. │
billymg: now back to figuring out non-root xorg...
billymg: alright, can report that i now have a working xorg with dwm while respecting asciilifeform's ban list
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-19#1009075 << what does auto-mirrorable mean?
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-03-19 12:32:20 asciilifeform: why the hell is a typical public www bound to 1 box? specifically, why could not exist as an auto-mirrorable directory of signed material ?
jonsykkel: isnt that the idea behind named data networking?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054431 << ftr the linked claim turned out to be disinfo -- asciilifeform has nonroot xorg without any kinda logind at all
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 18:25:58 billymg: also, i'm now trying to get startx actually working, and looking at the gentoo guide for non-root-x it seems like i need to have at least elogind (which i think i removed because the xorg-server ebuild on his github wanted to pull in dbus if either systemd or elogind were present)
asciilifeform: ( how? -- with recent kernels, the modeswitch dun require root priv, apparently )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054432 << is your locale set to utf8 ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 18:31:39 billymg: ahh, it's some | like character being displayed as a 'aOA' (but with ^ accents over each letter), among other strangeness
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 19:19:32 billymg: ok, fixed that by rebuilding his openrc but with unicode support
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054437 << neato! i rec to post recipe, for other folx
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 20:00:39 billymg: alright, can report that i now have a working xorg with dwm while respecting asciilifeform's ban list
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054441 << lol, can just as readily say that 'it's the idea behind' smoke signalling and messages in bottles
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 20:44:15 jonsykkel: isnt that the idea behind named data networking?
asciilifeform: ( all arguably 'the same' from this pov.. )
billymg: asciilifeform: yeah, that guide on gentoo's official docs mentions 'suid' but does so in a "don't use this, it's legacy" warning box
billymg: which prompted me to search for startx suid and then i found the news item about how in june 2020 they disabled it by default
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054439 << it'd mean that you have a wot and when member of said wot uploads a signed material on his station, your station snarfs a copy of the material/signature and in fact erryone who has said pubkey in their personal l1 ends up with identical 'press' of the vtree consisting of what that key had signed, vpatch by vpatch
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 20:41:45 thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-19#1009075 << what does auto-mirrorable mean?
asciilifeform: billymg: 'Official' gentoo has been run by saboteurs for at least decade
asciilifeform: at one point they became aware that most of the people still using some form of gentooism ~don't want~ systemdism under any sauce. but 'gotta' stuff it !! such were orders. so various subterfuges.
asciilifeform: mostly consisting of 'well you still gotta have dbus and gtk3!!! or you don't get to www/emacs/xorg/udev/etc/etc/etc!!' and 'ok have this thing that in fact contains 95% of systemd src but ~we'll call it something else~'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-05 15:46:03 asciilifeform: 'Since there are holdouts not wanting a systemd only distro, he's decided to slowly destroy it by making it look like the warmed over coprophilic pile called systemd.'
asciilifeform: will paste for permalog:
asciilifeform: '...Regardless of whether systemd's design was a good one, the reality is that notable programs have adopted its tmpfiles design and now depend on certain directories being available without being created by the application. Those directories are required to exist for proper functionality. To ensure their existence, your choices are:...'
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-08-18 asciilifeform: 'The situation is somewhat akin to a retarded girlfriend trying to flood your apartment, that not only opens all the faucets and stops all the drains, but also takes the "extremely clever" measure of puncturing the water pipes, so she can then preciously inform you that "turning off the faucets won't help" and you must work with her to somehow create a raft out of your widescreen TV so as to navigate the marshy terrain that used to b
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-08-18 asciilifeform: e your living room. The correct solution in the case of the retarded girlfriend obviously is turning off the main and beating her black and blue, rather than entertaining her idiocy. Similarly in the case of the retarded Internet, the correct solution is turning off the main and beating these idiots black and blue, rather than entertaining their idiocy.'
jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054451 << yeah i just read the quote without the context first
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 20:52:38 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054441 << lol, can just as readily say that 'it's the idea behind' smoke signalling and messages in bottles
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: iirc you lurked for long enuff to know about 'v'
jonsykkel: indeed, unacceptabl. should have assumed vtronularity was in play
billymg: asciilifeform: it's certainly maddening. this whole exercise has given me newfound hatred for these people
billymg: asciilifeform: which browser do you recommend i try in this environment?
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: see linked thrd for basic outline of algo. idea is, if you have a www ('vvv' ??) of signed material, will then have as many mirrors as you have readers. and they'll all have up-to-date, authentic content of yours, trivially verifiably. nomoar ddos, expensive hostings, warez takedowns, etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-03-19 12:33:43 asciilifeform: config a set of pubkeys and a set of peers. when any of the latter have new material, $node loads, verifies, and interns it.
asciilifeform: billymg: there are no hygienic browsers. if you browse on a box, it thereby is a toilet, pick any, even closed sores atrocities ('chrome', etc)
billymg: asciilifeform: less about hygiene and more about which one is most likely to not require pulling in these systemdisms i've been spending time to avoid
billymg: if there are none, then oh well, i don't mind having done this for my own knownledge
asciilifeform: billymg: bad old 'chrome' worx w/out any deps other than xorg iirc
asciilifeform: 'chromium' iirc ditto
jonsykkel: i see, does sound interesting
asciilifeform: on this particular box both
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054473 << their attack has largely worked -- push, push, push the tendrils in , until 'no one knows how' to build even basic box w/out one or more tendrils, and 'the reality is that notable programs have adopted its .... design and now depend on certain ...'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-29 21:06:08 billymg: asciilifeform: it's certainly maddening. this whole exercise has given me newfound hatred for these people
asciilifeform: and 'you need', supposedly, elogind, dbus, etc.
asciilifeform: the funny bit is that there's this intermediate state where they ~say~ 'you need...' but in point of fact the item which supposedly 'needs' $poetteringware will run a++ without it and not notice the 'vital' missing liquishit at all
asciilifeform: this stage is necessary because like certain species of vampire bat, must lull the victim with flapping of wings, anaesthesize prior to bite -- if e.g. 'chromium' ~actually refused to start~ w/out e.g. dbus, someone might conceivably fix.
asciilifeform: but once bogus dependency (e.g. via USE flag) is 'accepted', then and only then they proceed to cement in a hard dependency.
asciilifeform: it's a peculiar pattern, but so far seems to have held.
asciilifeform: 'udev' was picked for poetteringization, but, to the great frustration of the perps, people noticed in time to create a functioning poettering-free fork, 'eudev'
asciilifeform: other items -- not so lucky. asciilifeform for instance is not aware of a poettering-free 'cups' (printer driver system) of any recent vintage
asciilifeform: earlier this yr asciilifeform purchased a serious postscript printer, and found that he has to power up a mswin box to print on it!! just like he had to in e.g. 2004 !
asciilifeform: cuz nomoar cups.
signpost: cups is the original poetteringware imho, fucking hate that thing.
signpost: not actually made by him, but same spirit.
asciilifeform: signpost: it was, wasn't it.
signpost: fucking thing even tries to write to /etc
asciilifeform: and succeeded in displacing all the old, 100% working, clean solutions.
signpost ran lots of printers in another life
asciilifeform: arguably set the stage for what followed.
asciilifeform: this printer is a veritable lulzgenerator in own right. pay 4fig for postscript printer (gold standard since '80s... right?) and get, i shit thee not, div-by-0 eggogs mid-way-through printing 100pg doc
signpost had to have watchdog check printer state and reboot the entire embedded thing to keep good uptime.
signpost: yup, or "hm, why does every 10000th-ish print have no fonts"
signpost: all kinds of wonders.
asciilifeform: signpost: i still recall when postscriptism meant that you could simply ftp a e.g. pdf turd to the thing and fughet about 'drivers'
asciilifeform: (spoiler: nomoar)
signpost: far too sensible, that.
signpost: can't get someone to install Hewlett Packard Print Wizard Elite Driver Pack (TM)
signpost: at least the world I was in had pretty standard (rip off star micronics or epson) standards
signpost tired, lol, clearly
asciilifeform dumpster-dug and repaired, as teenager, early '90s laser printer, and used it until the teeth came off the gears. errything after that has been an adventure in 'wtf, srsly'
asciilifeform: irrespective, interestingly, of price category.
signpost: those star micronics guys are tanks. they have to survive filthy restaurant kitchens.
asciilifeform: oh hm loox like a thermal tape printer ?
signpost: yeah, receipts
asciilifeform has a number of these. was speaking of the 'ordinary' office kind tho.
asciilifeform: thermal printers -- nearly indestructible. and almost always speak standard rs-232.
signpost: yeah, I needed to be able to fart images to mine though, so used CUPS.
asciilifeform still would like an a4 thermal printer
asciilifeform: would be nifty to find tape for'em that dun fade in ~6months, too