#asciilifeform | 2020-01-13

feedbot: http://bingology.net/2020/week-2-2020-review-a-very-qntra-week/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- Week 2 2020 Review - A Very Qntra Week

feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/13/notes-on-computer-graphics-a-map-of-sorts/ << Ossa Sepia -- Notes on Computer Graphics - A Map of Sorts

shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-12#1005034 <<< Now lives at http://btc.info.gf/devel/lisp/esthlos-v/

snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-12 18:25:25 asciilifeform: shinohai: do you have a mirror for that one ? plox to link

asciilifeform: ty shinohai

Apocalyptic: shinohai: great stuff, I have also tested litmus to check clearsigned msg and works a++

shinohai: neato Apocalyptic

shinohai will upload his makefile vpatch as soon as he fixes 1-2 more things and resigns

Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, a minor inconvenience in litmus.sh, on my system /bin/sh is symlinked to dash, and it seems to barf at line 151 "FILES=(...)", which looks like a bashism to me (unsure). Changing the interpreter to /bin/bash fixed the issue

asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: i'ma look. ( item is intended to work in plain sh )

asciilifeform: fwiw worx as-written on my gentoos (where no such symlink)

Apocalyptic: dash throws: "./litmus.sh: 151: ./litmus.sh: Syntax error: "(" unexpected

asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: atm i dun have any boxes w/ 'dash' ; does it die elsewhere if the 'test externals' routine commented out ?

shinohai: i never use anything besides sh or bash, so have no clue

Apocalyptic: I guess the (..) construct is not POSIX-compliant. asciilifeform it dies way before 'test externals' which begins at line 219

asciilifeform: will have to get hold of a posix-strict shell somehow and iron these out.

shinohai: Discord found to be decrypting users E2E encrypted chats and voice messages, then re-encrypting and send packets along their merry way.

shinohai: Why no surprise?

asciilifeform: shinohai: i admit that not familiar with how subj worked

Apocalyptic: shinohai: megalulz

asciilifeform: in what sense was it 'e2e' if vendor can decrypt ?

shinohai: Discord is like this alt-irc for "gamerz" or whatever.

shinohai: was popular haunt of douchebag iirc, perhaps danielpbarron had church chan there?

asciilifeform not used, outside of salt mines, oddball proprietary aol-style 'chats' in many yrs, so not up to date on the zoology

Apocalyptic: it's still very popular in crypto "trading groups" these days, where owner charges BTC to post advice

asciilifeform: lol!

shinohai: Telegram is only heathen chat I use for "cryptocurrency" chats, and is relatively easy to make logbot for

Apocalyptic: shinohai, I wanted to try Telegram once, but they ask for a mandatory phone number to register if I remember correctly

Apocalyptic: now wtf they need that info for is still unclear to me

asciilifeform historically solves this 'problem' mp-style -- 'folx who insist on using oddball heathen chats, aint worth talking with'

shinohai: i used throwaway google voice #

shinohai: But no, outside of irc, no "real" conversation occurs.

danielpbarron: still got a chan there and it's quite busy

shinohai: I think last time I was on Discord was when I met the subgenii folx that made an altcoin, chan alwayz ded

feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/2020/2019-in-review << The Tar Pit -- 2019 in review

asciilifeform: danielpbarron: what's the win from having it in a proprietary chat thing vs ordinary irc ?

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2020/01/rhodium-prices-nearing-2008-highs/ << Qntra -- Rhodium Prices Nearing 2008 Highs

feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/01/13/a-puppet/ << Ossa Sepia -- A Puppet

shinohai: "Life imitates Art far more than Art imitates Life" (tm) (Wilde)

asciilifeform presently wondering if there actually is such a thing available as a 'pure posix shell' and, if so, whether is possible to write nontrivial proggies in it

asciilifeform: shinohai: for context -- orig. 'litmus' was to be a pythonism/perlism. but the mp people have a point there, these langs dun belong on a 'floppy-sized linux'

asciilifeform: imho these hairballs oughta go away entirely, like bad dream

asciilifeform: but with what replace ?

shinohai: i like where conversation headed towards v.sh

asciilifeform: thought, 'let's try sh'

asciilifeform: but if in fact posix 'sh' dun support arrays...

asciilifeform: drepperized 'bash' dun belong on a floppy linux either imho

asciilifeform: this is not even to mention the can of worms re whether all the small misc. utils ('cut', 'tr', 'sed', etc) actually work consistently across various unixlikes (anyone try 'litmus' on bsd ?)

asciilifeform: i decided that the only way to properly answer the q is via 'recon by fire'

danielpbarron: asciilifeform, I'd rather it be on irc but nobody joins that one. I get a lot of new people joining from various discord channel promotion websites. The "win" is that I reach more people with one than the other.

asciilifeform: danielpbarron: makes sense. the price for this is that 1 day the vendor might decide to ban yer thing and then wat.

danielpbarron: i'm on irc too, and those who care to continue chatting with me know how to find it

asciilifeform: danielpbarron: may be worth the effort to move'em to irc nao, while can still talk on $heathenchat, vs later, when not

danielpbarron: i don't see the point. They have already been warned. The chat is mostly for warning new people.

asciilifeform aint about to try to tell danielpbarron how to run his churches

shinohai: i mean, discord will be consumed by same fire and brimstone sent by jehovah to destroy all the other evil places i'd suppose.

asciilifeform: shinohai: i'm curious how these 'aol' appeal ~featurewise~ over trad irc, to the users

asciilifeform: what's the draw ?

asciilifeform: afaik lolcat icons can just as readily be pasted into irc as into these

shinohai: because webshit, and "there's an app for that" ad naseum

asciilifeform: there's a webchat thing on fleanode also neh

asciilifeform: and pnoje apps also

shinohai: I dont use Telegram app anyway, it uses libpurple, so interact via weechat/bitlbee

danielpbarron: i will admit, the discord phone app is way better than irc apps -- of course i still prefer a full keyboard and my irc client on linux

asciilifeform: re 'sh' etc : there's a dire lack of civilized scripting lang presently.

snsabot: (trilema) 2019-08-29 asciilifeform: there's imho a ~huge~ chunk of problem domain that is begging for a simple, well-specified, ~frozen~ scripting lang.

snsabot: (trilema) 2019-08-29 asciilifeform: imho instead of rewriting logger for 11th time out of matchsticks and hot glue, would be better to make a proper scripting lang...

asciilifeform: the problem domain where 'manipulate gigantic strings' , is quite poorly fitted by ada, esp. when written in civilized style where static memory allocations and prohibited to return strings on 'secondary stack'. (but even if outside of this style, still would result in gargantuan programs)

asciilifeform: 'sh' (even supposing can find 100% standardized subset of it...) aint it. (witness the thickness of the kludge in 'litmus', where -- as 'sh' cannot operate on raw bytes of binary input in any way, need 'xxd' hexdump util as an intermediate, w/ whole hexdump text string having to live in memory. would be entirely impractical for seriously heavy files, rather than the tiny gpg sig turds)

asciilifeform: in principle, can implement just about anything 'with duct tape'. even, e.g., the logger back end -- could theoretically take 'telnet' and talk to it via a sh script in 2nd process. but it will be not only ugly but will break in entirely unanticipated (and, likely, undebuggable) places on some % of envirs.

asciilifeform: and will be the sort of program you will be held to answer for in hell

asciilifeform: meanwhile, elsewhere, thread possib. of interest on jfw's www re isp and wot logic.

asciilifeform: further in re 'throw out python' : in what is one to implement items like e.g. this ? presently afaik there is no answer to this q.

Apocalyptic: asciilifeform: as far as I know dash is the most minimalist pure posix shell there is

Apocalyptic: apparently there is a few Berkeley extensions on top of posix features, but that's all

asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: and 0 support for arrays ? or is there a posixy syntax for'em ? any idea ?

Apocalyptic: not a shell aficionado myself, but a search yields http://www.etalabs.net/sh_tricks.html which has a "Working with array" section

Apocalyptic: looks like ugly hacks though

asciilifeform: seems to insist on eval

asciilifeform: i.e. riotously ugly

asciilifeform: (and, bonus, incurably exploitable)

Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, see the second post of [https://www.unix.com/shell-programming-and-scripting/280745-creating-pseudo-array-dash-posix.html] apparently the author had a similar question and doubts about pseudo-arrays without eval being possible

asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: all of this heavily argues in favour of posix committee being an instrument of wreckers ( similar to common lisp committee ) , pushing ~deliberately~ for crippled 'standard' which the constituent vendors can then 'embrace & extend'

asciilifeform: dunno whether yer into CL, but there something very similar happened in '80s -- which is how the language ended up missing basic functionality like tcp/ip in its standard

Apocalyptic: no argument there, no wonder everyone uses bloated bash and co

Apocalyptic not familiar with Lisp yet

asciilifeform: seems to inescapably happen whenever vendors of ~existing~ product get to 'make standard together'

asciilifeform: no shortage of examples, witness how microshit fucked 'open document'

asciilifeform: or how browser vendors continue to fuck htmlism 'standards' process

Apocalyptic: but "progress"

asciilifeform: on the hardware side, similar 'progress', with 'standards' like 'uefi'

asciilifeform: the only thing to do with these is to straight into the oven.

asciilifeform: interestingly, this is also how the ada standard ended up more or less sane -- was written by indifferent bureaucrats, in age of mainframe, rather than with any input from vendors

asciilifeform: ( notably, the vendors won in the end, and the usg.pentagon's imposition of ada for war machine industry was repealed. so that microshit cpp could reign. )

Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, since you mentioned CL, I wanted to experiment with it in the past but could not emerge dev-lisp/clisp on gentoo. I ended up with a memory-related error and couldn't fix it, so dropped the matter

Apocalyptic: needless to say, the "libffcall update" didn't fix anything, apparently it's related to gcc hardening and whatnot

Apocalyptic: I tried to switch between different gcc versions, including removing ssp/pie and using the vanilla gcc, but to no avail

shinohai: Apocalyptic: even when just trying to build clisp from sources (or just emerge) ?

Apocalyptic: I sticked to emerge

shinohai: I think I recall doing *something* to clisp and emerging by hand http://btc.info.gf/blog/essential-kit-items-building-sbcl-on-gentoo-with-musl.html

shinohai: but looks like i didnt document, because running emerge by hand is boring lol

Apocalyptic: "./lisp.run marc > marc.out" causes the error

shinohai: So what, mpex still using sha1 for sigs too? http://bingology.net/wp-content/uploads/mike_c_case/mpexstat.txt

Apocalyptic: shinohai, notice the heathen-gpg version too "Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux)"

shinohai: tsk, tsk

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-13#1005141 << afaik the only 2 reasonably-sane cl on pc are sbcl and ccl

snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-13 21:54:40 Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, since you mentioned CL, I wanted to experiment with it in the past but could not emerge dev-lisp/clisp on gentoo. I ended up with a memory-related error and couldn't fix it, so dropped the matter

asciilifeform: clisp is specifically known to be braindamaged in various ways ( chiefly -- does not include a compiler, and thus exists largely to reinforce 1970s 'lisp is slow' stereotype, near as i can tell )

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-13#1005149 << appears to be so

snsabot: Logged on 2020-01-13 22:23:10 shinohai: So what, mpex still using sha1 for sigs too? http://bingology.net/wp-content/uploads/mike_c_case/mpexstat.txt

asciilifeform: if i were a subscriber, i'd find this irritating; but i aint..

asciilifeform: shinohai: from asciilifeform's ancient archives. at one time mpex used not only sha1 but a 160 bit (!) ~dsa~ pubkey !

asciilifeform: ( when ? when had the demo acct , 2013 )

shinohai: O.o

asciilifeform: i aint about to laff at folx for what they were doing in 2000s re crypto, pretty much erryone was on kindergarten stage

asciilifeform: but imho is strange that even nao some folx sha1 ( and koch gpg 2.x )

shinohai: I was abt to say the gpg 2x is inexcusable

asciilifeform: ask not me but author of thing (mp) .

asciilifeform: at least he had pgp-eater rather than sslism, afaik all the other bitcoin xyzetc's were (and to this day are) stuck w/ sslism joke

asciilifeform: this played a necessary part in asciilifeform taking an interest when mp & co. wrote in and 'try our mpex', 'visit our irc chan'. 100% of errybody else involved in bitcoinism were screamingly subhuman

asciilifeform: to this day i have exactly 0 interest in what the 'bitcoin community' sitting on 'discord' and 'telegram' and 'cryptoing' with ssl, do, or say on any subj

shinohai: It's decidedly boring, irc still the great refuge.

asciilifeform: shinohai: will admit, 90% of asciilifeform's initial interest in the subj was 'perhaps nao someone will give half a shit re quality of software'. but even this, questionable

Apocalyptic: I agree with shinohai, nothing remotely of interest is happening on those heathen-chats

asciilifeform: even possible, imho, that bitcoin is a long-term intellectual disaster in the same sense as unix. i.e. endlessly imitated, never meaningfully improved, for generations

asciilifeform: ( specifically as described in the infamous 'worse is better' article )

asciilifeform: err, the correct link to orig piece

Apocalyptic: asciilifeform: by ccl you mean dev-lisp/clozurecl, right ?

asciilifeform: aha

Apocalyptic: will try to emerge that instead then

Apocalyptic: worx like a charm

asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: when you build a gentoo ebuild and 'worx', save the tarballs. guaranteed that in N yrs, will need'em, when 'progress' catches up with $proggy and 'ugh not builds, needs xyz deps..'

Apocalyptic: noted

Apocalyptic: seeing the retardation on gentoo from 2016 I'm afraid every time I'm syncing the tree

asciilifeform: for that matter, ' asciilifeform's gentoo ' consists 100% of this .

asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: i no longer 'sync' under any circumstances .

asciilifeform: see also.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-12-09 22:27:27 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: the reason why must NOT 'emerge --sync' is that gentoo's upstream went full-bore tard in late '17. if you sync, 'emerge' simply becomes paperweight, as no longer accepts the systemdism-ban flags

Apocalyptic: yeah I did sync but did not upgrade @world

asciilifeform: 'emerge --sync' specifically 'voids warranty' on ' asciilifeform's gentoo ' ( incl. rk variant ) .