mircea_popescu: "html trier-and-errorer" doesn't have the same ring to it.
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/07/19/this-is-a-story/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - This is a story.
mircea_popescu: and in other best looks, http://68.media.tumblr.com/f87af7e55bf9a8ccd4e784ac79f38a38/tumblr_n6i7j3LGrJ1stzc8to1_1280.jpg
BingoBoingo: Definitely an alf face
jurov: https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/nist-randomness-beacon "NIST is implementing a source of public randomness."
jurov: they took djb's joke seriously
jurov: systemd on boot doing GET requests there in 3..2..1
asciilifeform: jurov: next, clearly, a usgtronic, 'responsible-disclosing' phuctor
asciilifeform is mildly surprised that there isn't, as of yet, such a thing
asciilifeform: ( not counting the 2013 derpitude where they published 0 anythings )
mod6: bitbet is back? thought that guy vaporized?
asciilifeform: mod6: evidently he operates it nanotube-style
asciilifeform: ( i.e. when he feels like it )
asciilifeform: lol, nao with ssl!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-19#1686912 << btw pwnat no longer works ~anywhere. i tried.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-19 21:30 asciilifeform: in other olds, filed under ucilogy, http://samy.pl/pwnat
asciilifeform: evidently 'fixed', in backbone.
asciilifeform: drilling holes in NAT is - apparently -- an open problem again.
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz : NAT is why there was never a fully 'p2p' w4r3ztron )
asciilifeform: it is also a problem pertinent to, e.g., mircea_popescu's 'uci' and for that matter all botnet
asciilifeform: the need to use un-NATed boxes as proxies, so that NATed boxes can speak with one another, creates star topologies
asciilifeform: which makes the whole thing quite vulnerable.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: blackzilla is enjoying the seasonal weather more than i'm enjoying the seasonal smoke. being downwind of the massive bc fires isn't doing wonders for the ol' respiratory tract. (waking up coughing, etc.) . needless to say i've a newfound appreciation for the sorry denizens of chinese mega-cities. it's one of those "you never know what you've got until it's gone" (tm) things
pete_dushenski: and hello #t !
asciilifeform: ohai pete_dushenski
pete_dushenski: how goes alf ?
asciilifeform: unrelatedly, i noticed pete_dushenski had a piece re israel -- were you awake for the hagana thread ?
pete_dushenski: i have several such pieces on teh zion, neh ?
pete_dushenski: !#s hagana
a111: Logged on 2015-09-09 22:08 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: 'hagana' et al set the gold standard for blowing up brits, aha
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-12#1669363 , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-13#1669495 , possibly elsewhere
a111: Logged on 2017-06-12 23:16 asciilifeform: ^ 'altalena affair' resulted in the switcheroo where the upstanding folx ( irgun et al, who held the position 'rm -rf britain' , were replaced by the internationalkomyooniti obedient muppet circus who ended up 'recognized' by said komyooniti as 'israel'
a111: Logged on 2017-06-13 14:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very funny that jew thing you dug out. literally, the ENTIRE argument is "hey, let us scam you, because that's what goverments do, and if the goyim see us scamming you they'll believe w r government".
asciilifeform: tldr : eretz israel (tm)(r) got gavincoined early on.
pete_dushenski: aha, i recall that thread well
asciilifeform: picture, the original was something vaguely tmsr-flavoured. replaced -- with the familiar socialists and misc. quislings
asciilifeform: ( who first 'peace with british', despite the british being the folx nailing the door of nazi europe shut; afterwards -- 'peace with arab' )
pete_dushenski: not totally sure i buy the thesis but i can see where it comes from. at the very least current-day .co.il has 'chechens' to actively oppress, unlike us which just beats the piss out of itself.
shinohai: My favorite Maskil, pete_dushenski .... how goes?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the moar i dig, the moar i buy the thesis
pete_dushenski: heh no complaints shinohai , and yourself ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: currently hitting language barrier tho, gotta strengthen my .il-foo
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: alphabet is only 22-characters, it's doable
shinohai: Good here, thanks. Up to my eyebrows in home projects.
pete_dushenski: or maybe translation is a project for otherwise loose cannons (eg. adlai )
pete_dushenski: shinohai: renos ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: relying on translators suxx. you oughta know that.
pete_dushenski: ofc, but only 24 hours in a day
shinohai: More like reinas around here ;)
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: i'm more inclined to liken the 'new' .il to that of 'new' china : sucks up resources of imploding empire for as long as the going is good all while increasing self-sustainability and military capability. israel might be socialist but they're nowhere near as soft-bodied as the decaying west. closer to .su-.cn hybrid than .su-.us hybrid.
pete_dushenski: lol gotta love that bitbet is back... o brother what a gongshow.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: modern-day .il is a parasitic rider on usg -- and not merely in the well-known 'free money' sense, but also in that the ~only exports are 'intellectual property' racket, which rides on usg's patent enforcement shakedown
pete_dushenski: you think anyone takes usg's ip racket seriously anymore ? this isn't then 1960s
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: witness, usa and its nato colonies still pay sticker price for .il pharma
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680613 << i undertook 'yeshiva' which didn't explicitly involve log highlighting and dissection even if it sometimes turned out that way. i should actually make a separate category on the ol' blog for #t logs levitan'd
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 03:18 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680532 << at one time we had a fella ( pete_dushenski ? ) embark on a 'major life and times of the l0g' thing. what became of this ?
asciilifeform: what in this case means yeshiva if not 'log highlighting and dissection' , out of curiosity ?
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: and ? what does this prove other than that girl playing house knocks on wall of cardboard box before entering ?
pete_dushenski: 'yeshiva' needn't be as public as i made it is all
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the pharma thing is simply another way of funneling payola, is all
pete_dushenski: then again the alternative to public yeshiva is 'lurker' than somehow, someway never seems to mature into full blown adulthood.
asciilifeform: ( usg uses the 'crack whore' business model with the israelis. send payola, but also keep'em from actually solving - via proper genocide + conquest of moar desirable real estate -- the problem that requires the infinite payola to begin with )
asciilifeform: why to do this -- originally was simply to preserve british empire. later, to keep the fire burning, so that nothing fit to challenge the reich is born from the ash.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: no argument that payola is funneled, but cui bono ?
asciilifeform: see above.
pete_dushenski: reich doesn't need challenging anymore, does it. looks like it's pretty well occupied with the enemy within.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-01 00:44 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-01#1511937 << oh, "color revolutions" dun work ? tell you what, we'll steal your country's exports and with the proceeds finance an alt-country we'll pretend is realy your country. ha-ha!
asciilifeform: ' our cow died but hey, we can burn the neighbour's barn '
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: 'doesn't need no moar' is immaterial -- just like a freshly cut out liver is still trying, best as it can, to do its enzymatic business as if nothing happened, same -- reichs
asciilifeform: the anglos ultra-specialized in the 'divide and conquer' thing, it is burned into their firmware somehow.
pete_dushenski: just like chopped liver, you only like reich if you grew up with it.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: how's that relate ?
trinque: > ultra-specialized in the 'divide and conquer' thing << superpower of the schizoid?
pete_dushenski: just because you're eating the liver, doesn't mean you won't find another source of food when it's gone or as soon as the aging father finally croaks. but this is a stretch analogy.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: try as i might, i can't follow this
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: ya, reaching for sure. the point upstack was that paying sticker for pharma helps arm .il to the gills more than it helps usg maintain international kommonity relevance and that the former will outlast the latter
asciilifeform: afaik they still dun have a, e.g., self-made fighter jet.
pete_dushenski: recall that .il can and did actually build 'wall', not just talk about 'when i'm elected ima do such and such herpadurr'
asciilifeform: ( tried to, but usg offered 'for phreeee' and israelis were dumb enough to bite the hook )
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: because everyone know you need fighter jet in 21st century!!!1
asciilifeform: did somebody build tesla's 100km death ray while asciilifeform slept, or wut
asciilifeform: nobody cancelled the jet.
pete_dushenski: for whatever 'cybermilitary' is worth, i'd pit .il against any other
trinque recalls mircea_popescu's observation re: CN and missiles
trinque: in contrast to aircraft carrier Power Projection (TM)
pete_dushenski: this is post-nation-state world, cyber-d and a little bit of land is the best you can hope for.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: mojahed kalash dun run winblows.
asciilifeform: 'cyber' only works against overcivilized idiots
pete_dushenski: mojahed runs winbloze... on phone. or his boss does. or his gf does. or the new recruit does. "coming to a pocket near you" (tm)
trinque: what'd happen with the various sunni powers if suddenly usg vanished?
trinque: meanwhile, correct me if wrong, they're all stacked with american military hardware
trinque: was this true in the last such war?
asciilifeform: trinque: that'd depend on whether 'usg vanishes' includes 'usg remote-disable codes leak'
trinque: my amateur eye sees, at least, a region stacked for a rough war.
pete_dushenski: in other rough regions, the usg 'left' is still confuzed as fuck http://archive.is/X9fwz
pete_dushenski: when su 'vanished' did nuke codes leak ? if so, why no kablooey ?
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: su didn't do the remote-disable thing, for exported iron
asciilifeform: merely sold 2-3 generations behind state of the art.
asciilifeform: other thing, remote-boobies are difficult with transistor-poor culture.
asciilifeform: no place to hide.
pete_dushenski: makes sense, but ya, trinque 's q is still open then
trinque: y'know, if they're used to leaning on / suckling from USG, and it crumbles, they might consider leaning on whichever is biggest. turkey?
asciilifeform: last i heard, turks dun make own jet either..
trinque: buy from RU/CN; do either of them like Israel?
asciilifeform: not while it remains a muppet of a living usg, lol
trinque: right, so usg crumbles, erdrogan or whoever throws a big neo-caliphate party, invites everyone to go israel-stomping. russia and china collectivey "meh" and lol at the US losing a colony
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 15:49 asciilifeform: the need to use un-NATed boxes as proxies, so that NATed boxes can speak with one another, creates star topologies
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 15:50 asciilifeform: which makes the whole thing quite vulnerable.
trinque: pete_dushenski: looks like your link got snipped
pete_dushenski: aha. archive.is didn't eat it : https://newrepublic.com/article/143926/dirtbag-left-problem-dominance-politics
pete_dushenski: ima grab lunch. bbl
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687147 << twasn't a joke, evidently the whole http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-19#1686643 is right on point.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 08:40 jurov: they took djb's joke seriously
a111: Logged on 2017-07-19 16:32 asciilifeform: the real usgtronic gem here is that there's massive existing investment in 'this is a transform of SOME dna sequence, SOMEWHERE, now tell me which' hardware
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 15:41 asciilifeform: drilling holes in NAT is - apparently -- an open problem again.
asciilifeform: why 'yet' ?
asciilifeform: games connect to an un-natted central (star topology) box
asciilifeform: just like www browser etc
mircea_popescu: not all though.
mircea_popescu: i suppose this may be a "yes, meanwhile all", haven't looked.
asciilifeform: the only quasi-reliable method ( 'udp hole punch' ), used by , e.g., 'skype', STILL requires a 3rd party non-natted box to broker the connection
asciilifeform: so the star topology is still there.
asciilifeform: ( the 'star' does not have to physically pass ~all~ packets between ~all~ leaves, but this is still not actual p2p )
mircea_popescu: a solution to the problem would actually help trb too
asciilifeform: sure would.
mircea_popescu: (currently, nat'd boxes are ~useless as nodes)
asciilifeform: or any other non-1990s-usgolade protocol.
mircea_popescu: i suppose this goes on the list of tasks. "find nat hole".
asciilifeform: in so far as the net is concerned, imho this is ~the~ openproblem.
mircea_popescu: shinohai mind tweeting @samykamar ? apparently he's active. we wanna talk about pwnat.
asciilifeform: i have a theory which might, potentially, lead to a pill, will put it here slightly later
shinohai: Will do mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: "Apparently future-dated gps packets disable Stingray phone signal intercept devices. The device thinks its license has expired and locks up." in other lulz
mircea_popescu: (from the guy's timeline)
mircea_popescu: ikr ?
mircea_popescu: this is like that scene in brazil.
asciilifeform: betcha they disable that cnc mill also
asciilifeform: the thing usg mandates on all large machines for export
shinohai: Appears @samykamar has deleted account or fell afoul of twitter lawz. My own account finally got limited.
mircea_popescu: shinohai and see if @Fox0x01 wants to come over also. apparently there's chicks into "offensive sec" whatever that is.
mircea_popescu: shinohai @samykamkar i misspel;led.
shinohai: ah kk
mircea_popescu: yeah kk
mircea_popescu: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEZLXpyXcAACS6k.jpg the dood has a pretty decent twitter.
mircea_popescu: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_eH54QWAAAzHKl.jpg << pizza parlor's "ai" crashes, reveals that no females eat pizza. oslo.
asciilifeform: famous pic
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's the thing : we don't actually have the problem of nat traversal. in the following sense : gossipd is not intended to work without introduction. as part of the introduction, the introducer server can provide ips. those can then be used for everything, bitcoind, you name it.
mircea_popescu: basically the operating system of the republic will be gossipd.
asciilifeform: gossipd dun have the problem
asciilifeform: uci does.
mircea_popescu: not intended to work except atop gossipd.
mircea_popescu: making everything depend on gossipd present and running is the right thing anyway.
asciilifeform: most botnet nodes are behind nat.
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: so as things presently work, nobody can connect ~to~ them.
mircea_popescu: but whosoever does connect, puts in tmsr, ie, gossipd + uci whatever.
mircea_popescu: then the ycan connect to the whole fleet.
mircea_popescu: because they get their ips FROM gossipd.
asciilifeform: unless you have proper p2p, you get massive 'stars'. provenphakt.
mircea_popescu: you have proper p2p.
asciilifeform: mno. if there is a massive class of boxes that cannot plug directly into each other -- stars.
mircea_popescu: they can plug directly into each other.
asciilifeform: because nat.
mircea_popescu: mno. because gossipd provides IPs.
asciilifeform: i.e. stars.
asciilifeform: expand ?
mircea_popescu: suppose you have nodes A, B behind a nat. suppose A and B run gossipd, and have been introduced to C. A aiming to connect to B or vice-versa for any reason is accomplished through : A asks C for an ip for B. C provides A with ip for B and B with notification of A's request (at the least, its ip).
mircea_popescu: A and B can now connect.
mircea_popescu: B can now become C for D ; and A can now become C for Z.
mircea_popescu: ie, problem reduced to bootstrapping, significantly lower class.
mircea_popescu: no, because C doesn't need to be around.
asciilifeform: well this is where it falls
mircea_popescu: and why ?
asciilifeform: you can't presently 'become C for D'
mircea_popescu: and why not ?
asciilifeform: read how 'udp hole punch' worx
mircea_popescu: you become C for D in gossipd.
asciilifeform: this was actually my 1st thought, essentially, 'why can't it be C for D'
mircea_popescu: ie, D then asks B, "what about A ?" and B provides ip and notification to A.
asciilifeform: and it can't because D has no way to contact the A and B pair .
mircea_popescu: D is already introduced to B.
mircea_popescu: and wants to be introduced to A also.
asciilifeform: if D is already linked to B, it is not a D
asciilifeform: i assumed D referred to a new node
mircea_popescu: let me rephrase this for your own terminology then.
mircea_popescu: you have nodes N1...Nn all behind a nat. Server S popus up and connects them in pairs such that no Ni is without at least one peer. Server S dies. The whole N1..Nn remains connected forever, notwithstanding how any NjNk connections may die.
mircea_popescu: should any Nq become isolated, it will require a S to be reintroduced.
asciilifeform: not forever. strictly until somebody's dynamicip changes.
asciilifeform: and yes it will require an S to reintroduce itself.
asciilifeform: which turns the class of S-capable nodes into stars.
mircea_popescu: this is not a problem, but a good thing : provides monetary incentive to maintain node connections
mircea_popescu: ie, alt-soilves the bitcoin node problem
asciilifeform: ( without them, the action stops )
asciilifeform: it doesn't provide monetary incentive, any more than today's expense of running a proper node magically transforms into compensation
asciilifeform: there is no way to collect.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the correct approach to that problem is for all boxes which can not obtain leased ips but only dynamic ips to own two internet connections.\
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and how about unwilling bots ?
mircea_popescu: this is ALSO good : breask the ip-box bijectivity, as was intention all along transparently throughout spec docs.
asciilifeform: i.e. uci installs
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform will get reinstalled every ip change i guess.
asciilifeform: understand, nat is the principal weak link in botnet topology.
mircea_popescu: i understand no such thing.
asciilifeform: there is no way to distribute an infector without hardcoded ips
mircea_popescu: anyway -- the way to collect is that you don't have to pay for a S coming up. just like the car using less gasoline -- you do collect.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nonsense.
asciilifeform: ( there are various 'cheats' around this, but all resolve to hardcoded hidey-hole ~somewhere~ that contains where next to connect )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's concretize . say i write an infector. what should be its mechanism of connecting to greater tmsr ?
mircea_popescu: a box you own can connect to the network through the usual process : asks all your peers for peers to connect to.
asciilifeform: what peers ?
asciilifeform: it has nfi what exists
asciilifeform: it's a clean install.
asciilifeform: but if you propose to package it with a hardcoded list of existing peers -- guess what, this is what people traditionally do. they get unplugged, and then whole net is useless.
mircea_popescu: is this "how to run software on block of wood" ?
asciilifeform: mno. this is the hypothetical of 'how to get properly p2p net'
asciilifeform: my contention was -- we dun have it. yet.
asciilifeform: but the problem is not solved by pretending it not to exist.
asciilifeform: as BingoBoingo's 'big book' reminds.
mircea_popescu: i dun follow what the problem's supposed to be with the above scheme.
mircea_popescu: you keep wanting the solution expressed in different terminology and upon delivery promptly proceed to change the terminology.
mircea_popescu: this'd be 3rd pass.
asciilifeform: it ain't a solution if it merely redefines the problem as 'the way life is'
asciilifeform: i want a nonstar topology.
mircea_popescu: and above is such described.
asciilifeform: can haz, or not, is a question that can be posed. but to give a solution WITH stars, is neither here nor there.
asciilifeform: there must NOT BE any such thing as 'S'.
mircea_popescu: ever ?
asciilifeform: just peers.
mircea_popescu: then your problem has no solution.
asciilifeform: can haz? maybe cannot
mircea_popescu: "i have boxes that don't respond to unknowns and no way to make unknowns known can has solution ?" alfian style problem.
mircea_popescu: there's temporary Sn. this is quite literally just how life is.
mircea_popescu: can "problematize" about it all you want, but when you're done -- the solution is to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687348
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:50 mircea_popescu: you have nodes N1...Nn all behind a nat. Server S popus up and connects them in pairs such that no Ni is without at least one peer. Server S dies. The whole N1..Nn remains connected forever, notwithstanding how any NjNk connections may die.
asciilifeform: that ain't a solution.
asciilifeform: that's 'fuckoff'
asciilifeform: which is a reasonable answer, but why package it as 'solution'
mircea_popescu: hey. the world runs on fuckoff since ~forever.
asciilifeform: esp. if actual solution may well exist.
mircea_popescu: because sometimes that's exactly what it is neh.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "actual solution" will be exploiting hole in nat which depends on nat staying stupid in that specific way, which pwnat experience shows is worse than nothing.
trinque: pf: pf_normalize_tcp_stateful failed on first pkt << deedbot departures appear to correspond with this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not necessarily.
asciilifeform: there are some invariant 'holes' that will never close so long as the thing has to pass www
mircea_popescu: necessarily. if you grant nat implemented correctly, your problem is exactly that of the british girl on the deserted island. "so how was the sex ?" "i dunno, no star topoloigies!!!"
asciilifeform: ( and other tcp )
mircea_popescu: nonsense. "the eternal hole" is worse delusion than proper fuckoff.
mircea_popescu: the whole "will never as long as www" bullshit is just a larger cycle pwnat delusion.
mircea_popescu: "oh, the soviets could never x because market". da fuck do the soviets care.
trinque: which amusingly enough is emitted right before this comment in pf.c: /* This really shouldn't happen!!! */
mircea_popescu: remember when amd would never have dared stopping contributing to coreboot because "public opinion" ?
asciilifeform: 'hole' is the wrong word re how udp holepunch works
asciilifeform: it can't really be vanished away without killing 'tcp to arsebook' etc also. as i currently understand it.
asciilifeform: ( if somebody wants to describe how , i'll listen )
mircea_popescu: so it will be vanished away.
mircea_popescu: again -- stop baking empire into your work. whether positively or negatively.
mircea_popescu: so it will.
mircea_popescu: "can only vanish along with gopher, omfg who could live in a http world"
asciilifeform: but strictly like so.
mircea_popescu: guess who.
asciilifeform: whitelist aol.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not at all. strictly like as you see all around today.
mircea_popescu: "the web" is the result of better things shut off.
asciilifeform: there is no external cure for aol.
mircea_popescu: there is. again in the vanishing hope that may help : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687348
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:50 mircea_popescu: you have nodes N1...Nn all behind a nat. Server S popus up and connects them in pairs such that no Ni is without at least one peer. Server S dies. The whole N1..Nn remains connected forever, notwithstanding how any NjNk connections may die.
asciilifeform: if serf can't get on the actual net, this is not something that can be solved ~for~ him by anyone else
mircea_popescu: it can be solved, by peers, as above. as long as some kind of net exists. any kind.
mircea_popescu: not "this kind we wrote against". ANY kind.
asciilifeform: not if he has to connect to one of $smallint S boxes. that are all firewalled off at his isp.
mircea_popescu: S are not known in advance but by him.
asciilifeform: and how exactly is this achieved ?
mircea_popescu: you can put whatever you want in that list, and should put plenty of crap.
asciilifeform: telapathy ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform YOUR peers. yours.
mircea_popescu: you put, on the box you own, whatever list of your peers as you deem fit.
mircea_popescu: as long as at least one of them actually works, the box is now connected. and will stay connected.
mircea_popescu: and will discover peers and act as a peer beacon for others and so on.
asciilifeform: well yes. if you were able to connect, you were... surprise... able to connect
mircea_popescu: maybe we need to revisit the introduction part ?
asciilifeform: the problem -- and it IS a problem -- is that cold bootup, for ~any~ node, requires knowing a working S.
mircea_popescu: ". A aiming to connect to B or vice-versa for any reason is accomplished through : A asks C for an ip for B. C provides A with ip for B and B with notification of A's request (at the least, its ip)." << A sends C a request. C sends A an ip for B and B an ip for A. both B and A start broadcasting at each other fixed packets until the conn is established.
asciilifeform: ^ or as pictured here, C
asciilifeform: == S
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is only a problem in the sense of "i have decided to not work today so i can't"
asciilifeform: it is a problem in the same way as it is for trb.
asciilifeform: and for botnet.
mircea_popescu: trb has problems resulting from being written by monkeys.
asciilifeform: creates massive stars, in practice.
asciilifeform: speaking here of topological problem that will remain after rewritten by people.
mircea_popescu: what creates massive stars in practice is that the geeks doing this have no peers.
mircea_popescu: if i put up a box my S list will look nothing like yours.
asciilifeform: this'd require at least 2 S to exist, lol
mircea_popescu: and, to stick to fundamentals : your whole argument "proves" that #trilema could not exist.
mircea_popescu: yet, notwithstanding sina's concerns, we did manage to bootstrap trust out of nothing.
asciilifeform: this is == to sina's 'you used gpg yesterday, why is using it tomorrow a problem'
mircea_popescu: there's no other way socialisation works than by introduction. this is not a problem. you are welcome to approach it, but you will be wasting your time.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall your joak re brits fucking ?
mircea_popescu: a better world for computers where the rapist-racism of needing someone to introduce you has been resolved is truly not in any way different than the same re people.
mircea_popescu: i do.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-23 23:34 mircea_popescu: what fucking fix. they can't open it anymore than they can fuck the woman on the deserted island. "nobody to introduce us!!1"
mircea_popescu: amusingly i also put it in the log earlioer today. so what of it ?
asciilifeform: it gives the current state of the art re 'how to connect without introduction'
asciilifeform: i.e. to shout
mircea_popescu: this is neither a solution nor a problem nor something fit for discussion.
asciilifeform: existing botnets do this -- the familiar port scan and hammer
asciilifeform: it is ugly.
mircea_popescu: it is NOT A THING.
mircea_popescu: also gives the state of the art re mate finding in the greater uslandia. and it's the lulz of all time.
asciilifeform: depends what you're doing, neh. if you're a cicada looking for a fuck -- worx
mircea_popescu: next we're gonna what, come up with flip flops for computers ?
mircea_popescu: i hear apple stocks them.
asciilifeform: it's the 'insect' solution, gotta mention it for completeness.
mircea_popescu: i... guess
asciilifeform: sorta as british admiral answered 'boil the ocean' to 'is there a solution to uboat'
mircea_popescu: back to it -- once A knows what ip B is at and B knows what ip A is at, they can exchange crafter packets to the point of parlaying it into an established connection. in order to find these, they both rely on their peers. if they have no peers, they don't properly speaking exist, and an angel from above in the shape of a tmsr lord will have to bless them with the spark of life.
mircea_popescu: as for computers -- so for biosacks.
asciilifeform: i'll point out that i do not know of a different recipe than mircea_popescu's ( and in fact is same used by 'skype' and various heathens , for many years. )
mircea_popescu: and yes the fact that the list of S must be at least a dozen different lists and each a grosse long is why we can't do this arbitrarily early.
mircea_popescu: and also why rando neckbeard can't do himself.
mircea_popescu: (grosse ftr = 12 dozen)
asciilifeform: my objection is that the star topology does not go away by virtue of being called something else. you have a class of fully-capable nodes, S, that can accept unsolicited pipes; and a much larger class of P ( lessay, peons ), behind NAT, who cannot. ergo stars.
asciilifeform: this may very well be fundamental limit.
mircea_popescu: this is not what i see. what i see is that you have a list of C1..n machines ; some of which are included arbitrarily in a list of S1...j and some of which are not.
asciilifeform: and ergo net would have to be deployed in massive burst, whereby yesterday there were 0 S, but today 9000.
mircea_popescu: any C could at any point be a S or not be a S (and because of encryption observer can't even tell which it is)
asciilifeform: there is a separate problem pertaining to uci, that does not reduce strictly to 'nat problem'
mircea_popescu: but -- the fact that A happens to already have a connection to B and therefore B can S for him does not imply or require either A or B be not behind a nat.
asciilifeform: which is that new infections are not physically distinguishable from sybils
mircea_popescu: they are not distinguishable at all, what.
asciilifeform: and so you cannot have 'communicate only with knowns' in botnet
asciilifeform: and cannot operate by 'nothing to allcomers'
mircea_popescu: new guy walks in. how is he distinguishable from usg.pinoy ?
asciilifeform: i do not know of a solution to this presently
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is not distinguishable. but he can make a key and build identity
mircea_popescu: the solution is that some "people" will accept noobs and some won't. in practice, everyone will run multiple interfaces and thassat.
asciilifeform: bot node, generally, has nothing like an actual rng.
asciilifeform: so cannot form identity.
asciilifeform: it is also subject to key compromise at any time.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform by now we are strasight back to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687375
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:56 mircea_popescu: is this "how to run software on block of wood" ?
mircea_popescu: "has no internet connection, and no rng. can still use ?"
mircea_popescu: "sure, prop a door."
asciilifeform: babbage knew how.
mircea_popescu: the sad truth is that everyone is subject to key compromise at any time.
asciilifeform: in practice, some folx moar often than others.
asciilifeform: ( everyone is also subject to piano falling on him )
mircea_popescu: and with computers also.
mircea_popescu: but yes -- the standard here is that at no point will you know (or care!) whether box A is box A or box E.
asciilifeform: this is necessary but not sufficient
asciilifeform: you also want that nobody can affect how the net works by bringing 9000 of his own As to the table.
mircea_popescu: you accomplish this by not sharing your S lists.
asciilifeform: i was still speaking of uci bots
mircea_popescu: there is no such distinction. gossipd carries all.
mircea_popescu: whether server A im talking to i'm talking so it adds 2 and 2 for me, or gives me a new friend, or shoots a missile, is not a part of design consideration.
asciilifeform: this doesn't magically become a description of a working scheme, by mircea_popescu stating so
mircea_popescu: what do you mean ?
asciilifeform: let's take the typical bot, of which existing nets ( of infected nodes, rather than 'voluntary' p2p ) are made
asciilifeform: winblows box, containing potentially 900 other pieces of shitware
asciilifeform: any and all of which look for other processes and occasionally snapshot to send back to $mothership - 'perhaps interesting', 'perhaps contains keys'
mircea_popescu: i expect step 0 : rewrite mbr, fix rest of hdd, reboot into sane os.
mircea_popescu: i see absolutely 0 reason of tmsr tolerating non tmsr software on same box. wipe it all on sight.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-15 05:27 mircea_popescu: !#s "can we have everything louder than everything else"
mircea_popescu: this whole "bitcoin ransom" bs is just that, an ouverture.
mircea_popescu: the end game is, your computer was liberated from the crap. your "data" made on your "software". no need for either, grow up.
asciilifeform: only works because it doesn't result in operating box.
mircea_popescu: hm ?
asciilifeform: in original description of uci, was described as 'cpu cycle by the pound' sort of affair
asciilifeform: which implies that user keeps the machine plugged in
asciilifeform: victim, rather
mircea_popescu: ok ?
mircea_popescu: victim is the windowshead.
asciilifeform: why would he keep it plugged in if you formatted and installed slave-for-tmsr-os instead of all that stood there
mircea_popescu: he can do whatever he pleases. ideally stop with the inane bullshit.
asciilifeform: my current understanding is that you need ~some~ degree of stealth
asciilifeform: similar to existing crapware
mircea_popescu: mine isn't.
asciilifeform: expand plox
asciilifeform: user switches on box, sees 'muhahaha all my cycles belong to mircea_popescu OS installed!'
mircea_popescu: but like i just said ? if you end up owning a machine with crap installed, what do you do ? wipe the crap, install a sane os and continue.
asciilifeform: next thing - he takes it to the corner store and trades in hdd
mircea_popescu: why do you think this is different from that ?
asciilifeform: where does uci pool of available cpu cycles come from then
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would it be "mirceapopescu os" ? it's just a sane os. he can say hi in gossipd.
mircea_popescu: make some non-retarded friends for once in his life.
asciilifeform: so 'sane os' magically containing luser's demanded toolset, is also somehow in the mix ??!
mircea_popescu: sane os containing tmsr toolset.
mircea_popescu: and yes, he's more than welcome to take a hammer at it / take it back to winapple shop to "have it fixed" (and it will be, and then re-fixed and so on)
mircea_popescu: or else he can learn how to ada, why not.
asciilifeform: this is an entertaining idea ( though i predict that the typical luser will run ever the moar quicker to the new hdd shop from it ) but was not in mircea_popescu's classical uci spec.
mircea_popescu: it was, yes.
mircea_popescu: uci does not convey OWNership of box but permits USAGE thereof.
phf: what a beautiful idea
mircea_popescu: if you OWN a box, you first set it up.
mircea_popescu: phf ikr ? seems the most placid obviousness to me somehow. i must be a little odd.
asciilifeform: hey who didn't think of 'say virus installed linux' in 1998
asciilifeform certainly did
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform point being, loser can just let uci churn, watch his bitcoin acrete. why not.
asciilifeform: he dun have a his
mircea_popescu: he just got one.
mircea_popescu: for the first time in his lyf.
asciilifeform: and if his hdd dun fit the chain ?
mircea_popescu: then he'll be stuck waiting for a new hdd.
asciilifeform: good chunk of extant iron, is not actually bitcointronic
mircea_popescu: what do they do when their gfx card dun fit the game ?!?!?!
asciilifeform: if cpu cycles were actually fungible, this would already long ago exist.
asciilifeform: but they are not.
asciilifeform: because there is not yet any known way to compensate the possibility of deliberate misanswer in the calculation.
mircea_popescu: so far the ~only problem i can discern keeping cool things from long ago existing is the pretense of allowing idiots choice.
mircea_popescu: take that away, let them learn how to use a tmsr computer or do without a computer at all.
asciilifeform: you can achieve similar effect just by formatting their hdd, erasing whatever eraseable roms, etc
asciilifeform: 1990s virii folx had the right idea.
mircea_popescu: why the fuyck competer in "gui" when you can just compete in holes and either bury the stubborn or else watch windows turn into very much tmsr kicking and screaming ?
mircea_popescu: bitcoin. it corrupts.
asciilifeform: however this does not buy you the use of the victim's willingly paid electric bill.
mircea_popescu: i need his two dollars like i need his girlfriend.
asciilifeform: ( formatting hdd, that is. doesn't )
asciilifeform: 2 * maxint
asciilifeform: whole point of botnet neh
mircea_popescu: yeah, right.
mircea_popescu: botnet is not even ev.
asciilifeform: that was my argument against the entire uci thing, recall
asciilifeform: that nobody knows how to make it +ev.
mircea_popescu: back to the topic : the idea is to have properly arranged owned boxes. this will include gossipd as a basis, uci on top of that if the OWNer opts to, bitcoind on top of that likely, a devenv, whatever.
asciilifeform: so - willingly crafted boxes, then
mircea_popescu: will doesn't enter into it one way or another.
mircea_popescu: i really don't give a shit what anyone wants.
asciilifeform: this has 0 bearing on physical reality.
mircea_popescu: maximal boxes.
mircea_popescu: this is how water flows, and how everything else happens.
mircea_popescu: windows will either compete with tmsr or go away. if it competes -- it becomes. if it goes away -- it becomes. there is no choice and there is no will.
asciilifeform: if you use infected idiots, you're stuck explaining what's to keep'em from reinstalling winblows + patch against whatever door you walked in through.
mircea_popescu: if it competes -- it becomes. if it goes away -- it becomes.
asciilifeform: this is reminiscent of the old virulence debate re ebola etc - 'why are there not moar ebolas'
asciilifeform: or the evolution of 'hiv2' etc
mircea_popescu: there is major difference between competition in software and competition in (any kind of) hardware. very narrow protein spaces in biofilms.
mircea_popescu: (by spaces i mean spaces of possibilities, you can write any succession of letters but can't make any molecule you need work the way you'd expect)
asciilifeform: far more narrow in the world of the artificial.
asciilifeform: ( this is called 'brittleness' by aficionados of 'meat-like machinery' )
mircea_popescu: there's less optionality in nature. if you need a GABA, you will use... GABA. that's it. most software problems of comparable complexity allow multiple solutions.
asciilifeform: brittleness is in fact the reason why nobody's made 'evolved' code do much of ~anything interesting to date
mircea_popescu: i hold this is a sore misperception.
asciilifeform: what can i say, do try it
asciilifeform: i -- did
asciilifeform: fwiw cured me of 'this great unsolved problem is merely a small misconception everyone in the field merely happened to suffer from'
mircea_popescu: what are you suggesting i try ?
asciilifeform: describe a model of computation that is 1) usefully complete -- can carry out actual work 2) is substantially non-brittle - i.e. flipping 20% of the bits results in something that is only, say, 20% away from, but still recognizable as the original performer, rather than liquishit
asciilifeform: this was what minsky was trying to achieve with neural network. failed.
asciilifeform: ( even if nn is used today -- it is in fact used very sparingly, and in combination with other algos , rather than as universal engine as originally envisioned )
asciilifeform: because unlearns faster than learns.
asciilifeform: think of it as the ~opposite~ problem to mircea_popescu's hash func.
asciilifeform: (i.e., on what do you compute, such that only MOST mutations are lethal, rather than ALL )
asciilifeform: this is a mega-problem -- an entire field went to the grave because it was not able to solve it.
asciilifeform: and was replaced by bayesian garbage
trinque: markets appear to solve it.
asciilifeform: trinque: expand?
mircea_popescu: and while we ponder this : what is the difference in your estimation between http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-15#1670731 and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-07#1598150 ?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-15 15:16 mircea_popescu: aaand in other news, who wants to wire 2.5k for me ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-07 15:19 mircea_popescu: and entirely unrelatedly : anyone willing to stand up an irc bot for me (as a service for hire deal) and expose some kind of programmable interface that can read messages to it, process and push out a reply ? bonus points if i don't have to learn crazy-shitstick-"$modernlanguage".
mircea_popescu: what, that they happened over freenode rather than over gossipd ? that the latter is "not properly uci" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wiring some reichsmarks takes 5min of work
asciilifeform: writing proggy -- longer..
mircea_popescu: if i ask the owner of machine A to write me a bubblesort or write abada on his tits or whatever ?
mircea_popescu: what the hell is the difference supposed to be.
asciilifeform: difference between mountain and molehill
trinque: asciilifeform: sounds like you're thinking of UCI as one giant virtual machine atop which godman inca runs his programs
asciilifeform: to a topologist - maybe none
asciilifeform: just as no diff bw a tennis ball and moon
mircea_popescu: there is NO difference.
trinque: rather than here I sit, I paid some nodes to do work, turned out the output was useful to me
trinque: so I'll pay them to do more
trinque: which is what business is
asciilifeform: trinque: approx, but with 'l1 key holders' rather than inca
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a broken model.
asciilifeform: it was how i read the original trilema article re subj
mircea_popescu: yes, because you have in your head a rigid model of a specific thing. but you see, l1 is not defined afore the fact. l1 is WHAT EMERGES from this process, whatever it may be.
mircea_popescu: that's why the original lordship discussion says "it's not an argument that these are the best, we don't care who's the best. these -- are."
asciilifeform: it is defined by induction.
mircea_popescu: well if l1 ends up as a skirt to hide inca into that'd be one sad fucking outcome.
mircea_popescu: and who the fuck is corrupting who here!
asciilifeform: what'd be the definition of the inca here ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno that i have a definition, but the afore-the-fact grates.
trinque: the imaginary observer before whom the whole UCI topology sits, with equal results for all-comers
mircea_popescu: let us take a very lengthy detour if you'll indulge me.
asciilifeform: trinque: this is where i will admit that your argument is making 0 sense to me
mircea_popescu: so : there obviously is such a thing as "mainstream society". people meet, get married, have kids watch tv whatever. there ALSO is such a thing as "a bdsm community".
mircea_popescu: we on the page so far ?
mircea_popescu: ok. now, it is the oft unspoken but nevertheless common self flattery of all males that they are "doms" or "masters" whatever.
mircea_popescu: it is also the sad truth of biology that almost none actually are.
asciilifeform: ( or 'programmers' or 'artists' or 'carpenters' ... ) but yes
mircea_popescu: women find themselves caught up in the usual sad position their lot ends caught up in : they're stuck bridging reality and male nonsense.
mircea_popescu: so then, let's examine corruption.
mircea_popescu: corruption is that act whereby software is patched.
mircea_popescu: so, suppose a greatly respected dom dood hangs out by the highschool, and soft talks a girl studying there into coming along to the bdsm club.
asciilifeform: i.e. where market re-prices the faux-carpenter as pork on the hoof per pound ?
mircea_popescu: has she been corrupted ? perhaps. maybe, if she is turned from the "normal direction" of cooking-kids-tv into being an out and out slut, she has been corrupted.
mircea_popescu: but has he ?
mircea_popescu: maybe he finally marries. girl does a little bit of wearing push up bras for a year or so... and then for the rest of their natural lives they tvkids.
mircea_popescu: so. who is corrupting who ? how do you tell ~early~ ?
asciilifeform: from whose pov is either 'corrupted', other than hypothetical pantsuit priest's ?
asciilifeform: 'no longer operating within spec' of priest - yes
asciilifeform: but who else gives a shit
mircea_popescu: well, at time t they each purport to run a software. at time t1, they observably both run the same software. some patching went on. who ?
mircea_popescu: and this is my point here : yes, bitcoin corrupts. i mean specific things by this term of art, they're in the logs.
asciilifeform: could describe both as having run an ill-conceived winblowz, originally, that bsoded in the end in the same way
asciilifeform: and yes bitcoin 'corrupts' like forest fire burns.
mircea_popescu: the proposition that we'd end up with a sort of uci-as-nsa and l1-as-subtstitute-for-dnc is very much the proposition that, "you know what ? inca also corrupts"
asciilifeform: ( very overdue forest fire, at that )
asciilifeform: i read the original uci proposal as straight weapon of us vs them
mircea_popescu: this is observably true, in history : the proposition that "it's a great idea to live above your means" was the proximate cause of "french revolution" and every other socialist attack on money hence
asciilifeform: rather than eulora-like closes planet
mircea_popescu: including the silver money lobby in us and so on.
asciilifeform: *closed planet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well in principle the problem is, nothing tmsr does can possibly be anything but straight weapon of "us against them". it is a terrorist organisation after all.
asciilifeform: yes but distinguish bayonet thrust from recruitment
mircea_popescu: how ?
asciilifeform: bayonet is not making a new wot member in good standing. it is pest control.
mircea_popescu: anyway, but the tendency is there, your mind is "oh, mircea_popescu os". except i've no intention to mircea_popescu os anyone as such.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform problem is, at amoeba stage, can't distinguish infection from copulation. it's still cytostrands.
asciilifeform: the practical knot is -- do you wanna squeeze the winblowz idiots for max cpu cycle and storage space times electric current -- or to convert'em to tmsr participants ( do most have even the elementary neural makings of one ? why to suddenly think this ? )
mircea_popescu: moreover, explain. what DOES make such a new member in good standing ? trinque goes riding through poor neighbourhood, sees fetching negress, goes "hey ho! wanna be my slave ?" she goes "Sure loverboy". he takes her home, wipes her laptop and installs tmsr os. next you know it, black chix code.
asciilifeform: as i see it the 2 are disjoint
mircea_popescu: how do you then distinguish these thrusts ?
asciilifeform: bayonet, or fuck.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not want anything in particular ; but i do observe and therefore declare that as water flows to lower ground and as good money pushes out the bad so too better computers own shittier computers and there's jack shit me or you or them or anyone can do about this.
asciilifeform: this is great thread, but i have an incoming, so brb..
asciilifeform bbl - meat
mircea_popescu: now -- whether windowshead wants to or doesn't want to participate is entirely irrelevant. he can destroy the machine, or keep bringing in to his dumbship for "repairs" or whatever flailing. what of it.
mircea_popescu: but as to the practical knot - i dun wanna squeeze idiots for anything. to begin with, the very definition of idiocy assures me they have nothing i want.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687166 << ac has filters neh ? or not really cold enough up there to have airtight house
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:09 pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: blackzilla is enjoying the seasonal weather more than i'm enjoying the seasonal smoke. being downwind of the massive bc fires isn't doing wonders for the ol' respiratory tract. (waking up coughing, etc.) . needless to say i've a newfound appreciation for the sorry denizens of chinese mega-cities. it's one of those "you never know what you've got until it's gone" (tm) things
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:17 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: alphabet is only 22-characters, it's doable
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: well, no 'ac' per se at either home or bureau.
mircea_popescu: what do they even do in bc, central air ? or ?
pete_dushenski sees that his hebe joek is well received
mircea_popescu has in time become very partial to the solution for northern climes. "just pretend house is mfg plant, and that's why there must be a thick dong suspended under roof."
pete_dushenski: bc is ~800km away, which is where the wildfires are. alberta is just downwind. there are basically just circulation fans on the rooves. and windows! glorious operable windows that do oh so little to keep out pm
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687201 << this is rather not true. israel is up there with romania and the technological greats in "valuable subassembly production".
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:27 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: modern-day .il is a parasitic rider on usg -- and not merely in the well-known 'free money' sense, but also in that the ~only exports are 'intellectual property' racket, which rides on usg's patent enforcement shakedown
pete_dushenski: great, now i'm imagining black footlong dongs as ceiling mobiles. THIS IS BAD FOR CHILDREN MKDAY
mircea_popescu: centrail air, i'm telling you. can heat/cool/humidifix/filter, you name it.
mircea_popescu: you have a water plant in the basement, and it should be right next to the airplant.
pete_dushenski: just got quote for a/c at house actually : $5k (~1.4btc). not terribru and better than coughing myself awake in the middle of the night ?
mircea_popescu: the airtightness is more important than just plopping a split unit on the livingroom wall.
mircea_popescu: from experience, about 3.5x cheaper to build for it than to retrofit.\
mircea_popescu: but anyway, yes, 5k in deductible payment that improves property is way the fuck better than aerosol induced astma, which is something that does happen, and which is something that can readily cost 10x that over a miserable lifetime.
pete_dushenski: airtightness is pretty much a given in these parts, in my 60s house or 50s office maybe a bit less but certainly in newer builds
pete_dushenski: well aren't we just the a/c salesmen. well goddamit if i call him right now to install it's of my own volition!!1
mircea_popescu: tell you what, "eh fuck this shit" is how i ended up with millions in deployed capital, the roi of which was above par overall (not counting any subjectives).
pete_dushenski: i can see it
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687227 << the irony of it is that they stealthy do! when the romanians wiped the us ariforce out of the skies during that lulz exercise, what did it other than the pilots was the recently deployed israeli electronic upgrade.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:48 asciilifeform: afaik they still dun have a, e.g., self-made fighter jet.
mircea_popescu: the russians have no planes without the israeli bits. which means in point of fact that yes, the israelis have a fighter jet. and the best kind there can be had, also -- another's wife.
mircea_popescu: (the event also set us policy -- the reason they moved to tomahawk-from-boat rather than the 1990s-style iraq sorties is that us airforce could not actually stand up to ro airforce if it came to dogfight, which is more ridiculous than it stands.)
mircea_popescu: more ridiculous than it sounds* i mean.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:49 asciilifeform: nobody cancelled the jet.
mircea_popescu: as it stands currently, the russians will have the last jet much like the germans have the last car.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:49 pete_dushenski: for whatever 'cybermilitary' is worth, i'd pit .il against any other
mircea_popescu: but sure.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687242 << kinda, yeah. and before that, french materiel they ~didn't know how to use either.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:53 trinque: was this true in the last such war?
mircea_popescu: lotta period lulz about british spitfires strafing bedouin warparties etc.
trinque: heh, then the next one should be just as lulzy
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:57 pete_dushenski: in other rough regions, the usg 'left' is still confuzed as fuck http://archive.is/X9fwz
mircea_popescu: anyway. the "UAE demands to Qatar" redo of WW1-era "serbian ultimatum" is ... still ongoing!! now with revisions and etc.
mircea_popescu: but in more practical terms, apparently "teh terrorists" actually took over a country on the quiet.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> as it stands currently, the russians will have the last jet much like the germans have the last car. << But as we learned from pete_dushenski,sometimes the lawnmower's more fun
mircea_popescu: ttp://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-usa-sanctions-property-idUSKBN1A30H5 in moar random lulz
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687243 << the framing is so lulzy. really, "unable to buy us junk", that's the lead ? cuz they totally would have bought if ... they could... get it for free ? and under no other circumstances ? awww.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:54 pete_dushenski: some russian hardware too, and increasingly chinese as per http://archive.is/xhzQI
BingoBoingo: Finally someone severed that damned h from ttp
shinohai: It's new BingoBoingo, the Turd Transport Protocol (tm)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687247 << they didn't work. but yes, early 90s you could buy su nuke parts on black market.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 17:58 pete_dushenski: when su 'vanished' did nuke codes leak ? if so, why no kablooey ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687258 << absolutely not. if usg fell into the sea tomorrow, turkey would ally with israel and probably iran against the rest of the weirdos. and they'd throw such an arab peninsula rape party as the world's never seen.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:08 trinque: right, so usg crumbles, erdrogan or whoever throws a big neo-caliphate party, invites everyone to go israel-stomping. russia and china collectivey "meh" and lol at the US losing a colony
mircea_popescu: ~everyone there's sick of the "rich" arab nations as of crab apples.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687404 << do either of you have the packet involved ?
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:01 trinque: pf: pf_normalize_tcp_stateful failed on first pkt << deedbot departures appear to correspond with this.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ~everyone there's sick of the "rich" arab nations as of crab apples. << Poor crab apples, many are enslaved as the plumbing that allows fruiting apples to live. This is a rich metaphor space.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687493 << there is certainly a "minimum safe count". the issue is that just like with bitcoin -- the actual count increases as the item grows. so "waiting to polish it moar" not necessarily winning strategy. then again, too early not winning strategy either.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:22 asciilifeform: and ergo net would have to be deployed in massive burst, whereby yesterday there were 0 S, but today 9000.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo aha.
BingoBoingo senses crab apple oppresion fanfic inbound
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687745 <--> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687263
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:44 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687246 << was this something ?
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 18:19 pete_dushenski: aha. archive.is didn't eat it : https://newrepublic.com/article/143926/dirtbag-left-problem-dominance-politics
pete_dushenski: i got a kick out of the 'we are mp because we can haz podcast, bow hethens!!1' schtick
mircea_popescu: dun work here.
pete_dushenski: https://web.archive.org/web/20170719131843/https://newrepublic.com/article/143926/dirtbag-left-problem-dominance-politics ?
mircea_popescu: well it's loading... something. so meanwhile http://68.media.tumblr.com/dfa0b2a7a8ab3190014fcad8129f815d/tumblr_n063okIvVB1r2hz45o1_500.gif
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski spent 5 mins to load a 404
asciilifeform slowly re-eats the l0gz
pete_dushenski: http://archive.is/oyEC2 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://newrepublic.com/article/143926/dirtbag-left-problem-dominance-politics
pete_dushenski: i shan't give up on this lol even if it is now a stale, forced effort!
asciilifeform: so which is it, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687705 or http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-12#1681782 ?
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:13 mircea_popescu: but as to the practical knot - i dun wanna squeeze idiots for anything. to begin with, the very definition of idiocy assures me they have nothing i want.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-12 03:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just that -- have $100, get $100 worth of computer ; not have - not get.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687636 << how long it takes is not really the point. i DID in fact verify that candi_lustt was not http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687580
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:57 asciilifeform: writing proggy -- longer..
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:40 asciilifeform: because there is not yet any known way to compensate the possibility of deliberate misanswer in the calculation.
asciilifeform: as i understand it -- dichotomy
mircea_popescu: i don't see this. write it out ?
asciilifeform: pillage xor burn
asciilifeform: y'know , like in civ1
mircea_popescu: i still don't follow this. so : there's a chickfield. upon this chickfield you run a transform. it results in either all of them dying or some useful slavegirls surviving.
mircea_popescu: where is the dichotomy ?
mircea_popescu: obviously no slavegirl is free ranged pantsuit. so in this sense -- they all die, yes.
mircea_popescu: some -- reborn. most don't. life.
asciilifeform: but suppose what you really want is to clear a minefield.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/07/black-man-paroled-the-juice-is-once-again-loose/ << Qntra - Black Man Paroled: The Juice Is Once Again Loose
asciilifeform: then herding, even temporarily -- is +ev
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687704 << my contention was that trying to, e.g., 'solve 1024 chickens problem' is wasted effort in this case, just format their hdd and call it a day
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:12 mircea_popescu: now -- whether windowshead wants to or doesn't want to participate is entirely irrelevant. he can destroy the machine, or keep bringing in to his dumbship for "repairs" or whatever flailing. what of it.
asciilifeform: the uptake of whatever 'liberation' you forcibly thrust upon the cattle will be 0.
asciilifeform: ( these are creatures whose entire existence sits on a hallucinated pillar of 'choice' etc )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687721 << this is absolutely so. asciilifeform has a large ac in the work shed and it does ~0 -- because poor seals.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:28 mircea_popescu: the airtightness is more important than just plopping a split unit on the livingroom wall.
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit if it's 0 or -0.01
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687731 << if so, this does not bode well for ru planes if they ever face il
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:34 mircea_popescu: the russians have no planes without the israeli bits. which means in point of fact that yes, the israelis have a fighter jet. and the best kind there can be had, also -- another's wife.
mircea_popescu: i own a box. this box has crap on it. therefore... i ... delete the crap. and put something sane on./
mircea_popescu: which juncture gives you pause ?
asciilifeform: the utter futility of push-loading sanity.
asciilifeform: sanity must be sought.
trinque: whaat, isn't the whole thing here push-loading sanity?
mircea_popescu: but... if i own a box... therefore... i check and remove... crap.. and then... instal... sanity.
asciilifeform: if you own -- as in built with own hands
mircea_popescu: own is own.
mircea_popescu: if i own, then.
asciilifeform: i thought thread was re hypothetical infected idjits
asciilifeform: and 'their' iron
trinque: why scare-quotes?
trinque: because they don't own it, nsa does
asciilifeform: trinque: because cuckoldry neh
mircea_popescu: there is no such distinction. if you own, whether because your wife brought you it and said "here, this is your daugther" or because gf brought home "here, this is new fucktoy".
mircea_popescu: if you own -- you own.
asciilifeform: point being, idjit boots up his tetrisator one day and finds ?????
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: tmsr is not a ux shop.
asciilifeform: so if you're maximizing him for wool, gotta do one thing, if for meat -- other
mircea_popescu: i am not maximizing anyone for anything.
asciilifeform: this is not a thing.
asciilifeform: if you're doing it, there is some logic.
mircea_popescu: this is the point. i'm neither the left pepsi can nor the right pepsi can and you're neither invited or allowed to choose me.
asciilifeform: well i suppose you can also do it because achieved enlightenment on lsd, or whichever, but this is harem , not forum, and not communicable
asciilifeform: is mircea_popescu's logic communicable ?
mircea_popescu: yes. if... i own... a box... i ~~~therefore~~~ remove... the crap on it. and then, install, non crap on it.
mircea_popescu: this is the whole logic that is, and that ever could be, involved in the matter.
asciilifeform: and box evaporates next morning, without fail. so work that went into 'install noncrap' ( vs merely 'format hdd' ) was burned.
mircea_popescu: i don't care what happens tomorrow.
asciilifeform: 'whatever' is only ever uttered by folx who don't have to lift a finger.
mircea_popescu: i care what happened yesterday. and what happened yesterday was, i owned a box. and on it, i...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i literally, and entirely, don't give a shit what happens tomorrow.
asciilifeform: and yet you do some things and not others.
mircea_popescu: on the basis of previous things.
asciilifeform: d00d who 'dun care what tomorrow' stays on the cocaine yacht.
mircea_popescu: depends on dood.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, fwiw re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-06#1666713 <- finally got around to try it and I can confirm it works perfectly fine on gnat 2016 from adacore, gcc 4.9.4
a111: Logged on 2017-06-06 20:56 diana_coman: neah, it says it can't even see it then; will try another time with the adacore 4.9
asciilifeform: rather than screwing with software etc
asciilifeform: diana_coman: very neato
mircea_popescu: nice diana_coman
asciilifeform: diana_coman: share your gnatology with mod6
asciilifeform: ( how didja build gnat ? from where ? etc )
asciilifeform bbl, out of food
a111: Logged on 2013-02-16 14:17 Diablo-D3: people who are that rich dont hang out on IRC
diana_coman: used the pointers given by ave1 really
mircea_popescu: dumbfounding shitnonsense is this anyway. i do the things i do because they ARE! the right things to do. present fucking tense. not because i'm hopping such and such a tomorrow as'll make them retrospectively the right things. wtf is even this, inflatothink.
diana_coman: played a bit with ffa too; maybe I get some time to add to mod6's testing of it
asciilifeform: i betcha mircea_popescu plays fine game of chesss
mircea_popescu: middling. why ?
asciilifeform: given as he has a right-move oracle installed in him, and dun have to think any moves ahead
asciilifeform: i dun got an oracle
asciilifeform: and will say, thinking n moves ahead !=' femaleworry '
asciilifeform: though it is arduous, and i'd rather get oracle installed, somebody gotta say to me where .
asciilifeform: 'femaleworry' is idiotic because it's a decision algo that dun converge in constant time
asciilifeform: not because thinking.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> middling. why ? << Only middling when you play for the sport of it. IRL you decapitate opponent's king with bolt cutters and dare them to object
asciilifeform: i'll add that thinking per se dun have to make you predictable from game theoretical pov , the other major trap
asciilifeform: not if you own an rng.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not thinking at all ; but in any case : when there IS a fine oracle, why bother with more.
mircea_popescu: "do i own this box, yes/no" "if yes, why is there crap on it / if no why am i futzing with it".
phf: asciilifeform: presumably you have read pelevin's ддп(нн)
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/NoaB0 << More Alphabay lulz including etymology of where name came from
shinohai: " Public court filings revealed by the US Federal Government show that his use of Paypal in paying for a gold membership was helpful to the government in identifying his true identity."
shinohai: This is good for PayPalCoin
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687858 << simplistic, almost shamanistic though it is, there is perhaps useful trichotomy of heart-heart-gut, being three possible answers for "why" a given person does a given thing. heart because of how it makes her feel and how it makes the people around her feel ; head because it's cerebrally satisfying ; gut because gotta get the fucking show on the road already here.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 21:59 asciilifeform: i betcha mircea_popescu plays fine game of chesss
pete_dushenski: of course there are proportions at play, no one is 100% any one thing, but mp is at least 3/4 gut, stan at least 3/4 head, thus the 'how can you just do?' question
pete_dushenski prepares for hail storm of stones thrown at him for charlatanism
ben_vulpes: phrenology, even
BingoBoingo: Not charlatanism so much as Jewthink
pete_dushenski: pretty much eh
jhvh1: pete_dushenski: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 2793.3, Best ask: 2793.7, Bid-ask spread: 0.40000, Last trade: 2793.3, 24 hour volume: 72788.96715253, 24 hour low: 2226.3, 24 hour high: 2799.9, 24 hour vwap: None
BingoBoingo: OMG STILL CRASHING!
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2780.07, vol: 27541.42796078 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2640.016, vol: 13857.72139 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2785.8, vol: 72921.33033807 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2761.99, vol: 21584.28620000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2788.0, vol: 14412.8671034 | Volume-weighted last average: 2768.10240903
pete_dushenski: "Caskets can cost thousands of dollars to buy, and are even being sold in some major supermarket chains. But at the Coffin Club, members only need to supply their own materials. Russell Game is a club mentor but he is also making a coffin for himself. "It's so much cheaper than buying a coffin," he said."
ben_vulpes: in other boeckisms: https://blog.hboeck.de/archives/888-How-I-tricked-Symantec-with-a-Fake-Private-Key.html
ben_vulpes is regularly surprised at the thickness of derp found in the 'security community'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687877 << i hate to disappoint pete_dushenski , but i also think with gut. however, perhaps different section of gut than mircea_popescu .
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:19 pete_dushenski: of course there are proportions at play, no one is 100% any one thing, but mp is at least 3/4 gut, stan at least 3/4 head, thus the 'how can you just do?' question
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687889 << ben_vulpes ponder the sheer hilarity of the 'they revoked key based on faux signature!11' by same derp who heckled the 'peter anvin' key affair
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:12 ben_vulpes: in other boeckisms: https://blog.hboeck.de/archives/888-How-I-tricked-Symantec-with-a-Fake-Private-Key.html
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: lol need more ileum, less duodenum!1
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:06 phf: asciilifeform: presumably you have read pelevin's ддп(нн)
asciilifeform: ( it's a compendium of shorts. which one was phf thinking of ? )
asciilifeform: 'диалектика переходного периода из ниоткуда в никуда'
asciilifeform: ( pretty great title, too )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't actually recall his role in the anvin affair
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: also, that you framed "i think with this" shows that... you're head. hate to break it to you. to "think with gut" is to choose a restaurant to eat at not to open a restaurant.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: review, http://trilema.com/2015/full-disclosure-4096-rsa-key-in-the-strongset-factored , http://trilema.com/2015/more-factored-rsa-keys-and-assorted-other-considerations , http://trilema.com/2016/psa-hanno-bock-still-a-deceitful-shitbag
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: what i meant is, i dun have necessarily a communicable logic for why i operate in particular way, and if pressed , tend to react similarly to mircea_popescu's
asciilifeform: ' the oracle in my arse told me to do it, and fuckoff.jpg '
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:15 shinohai: " Public court filings revealed by the US Federal Government show that his use of Paypal in paying for a gold membership was helpful to the government in identifying his true identity."
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: only you'd know that. twas just my 2c from 10k feet.
asciilifeform: gotta wonder what was the thought process. 'i'ma pay for dope with shitpal just this ONCE' ??
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687870 << 'do i own this cow? if yes, why is it not sausage yet'
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:06 mircea_popescu: "do i own this box, yes/no" "if yes, why is there crap on it / if no why am i futzing with it".
asciilifeform: can milk cow. if it gives milk. whole puzzle was, as i understand, 'can haz milk? or go straight to meat'
asciilifeform: ( and do you even ~want~ this particular milk. )
asciilifeform: other thing is, even if you don't want for anything the 'milk' (cpu cycles etc) of pwned derp, and simply going for max materiel damage, formatting hdd is not necessarily the max
asciilifeform: ( set him up as a relay for whatever type of pr0n is banned where he is, leak his cc, etc )
asciilifeform: 'if job is worth doing, it is worth doing well' or how did it go.
phf: asciilifeform: i was thinking the one числа (or perhaps it's called мощь великого?), that was re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687868 and the general discussion of "acting from gut"
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:05 asciilifeform: not if you own an rng.
asciilifeform: i suspect mircea_popescu would luvv that piece
asciilifeform: iirc it even exists in a (middling) engl translation
asciilifeform: dun suppose phf has a 133337w4rez txt of this.
phf: no, unfortunately, hardcover book picked up on a moscows trip
asciilifeform: of the translation, i mean
asciilifeform: ( original is easy to find )
phf: шы еруку фт утп мукышщт?
phf: is there an eng version?
asciilifeform: бнопня вхрюк
asciilifeform: there is, some brit translated
asciilifeform: ( and iirc the result was not wholly barfalicious, even )
asciilifeform: http://www.electroniclibrary21.ru/literature/pelewin/41.shtml << generation p in engl
asciilifeform: iirc it was this d00d. bromfield.
asciilifeform: who did the other one
phf: i found a "собрание сочинений" pack of his english texts, but it doesn't have dpp, nor is amazon etc. turning up a translated version.
asciilifeform: 'The USSR, which they'd begun to renovate and improve at about the time when Tatarsky decided to change his profession, improved so much that it ceased to exist (if a state is capable of entering nirvana, that's what must have happened in this case)...'
asciilifeform: would like to find the one of 'numbers' tho.
asciilifeform: ' Meanwhile the television was still showing the same old repulsive physiognomies that had been sickening the viewers for the last twenty years. Now they were saying exactly the same things they used to jail other people for, except that they were far bolder, far more decisive and radical. Tatarsky often found himself imagining Germany in 1946, with Doktor Goebbels shrieking hysterically on the radio about the abyss in
asciilifeform: to which fascism had led the nation, with the former Kom-mandant of Auschwitz heading the Commission for the Detention of Nazi Criminals, and SS generals explaining in clear and simple words the importance of liberal values, while the whole cabal was led by the newly enlightened Gauleiter of Eastern Prussia. Tatarsky, of course, hated most of the manifestations of Soviet power, but he still couldn't understand w
asciilifeform: hy it was worth exchanging an evil empire for an evil banana republic that imported its bananas from Finland.'
asciilifeform: ^ recommended for engl. folx.
asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu would prolly snoar, however, this setting is old hat to him. )
phf: that, and subtitled Brat is pretty much all you need to understand moscow in the 90s :p
phf: ahaha, http://www.jstor.org.sci-hub.cc/stable/23349218?seq=3#page_scan_tab_contents "THE MONSTROUS AGGREGATE OF THE SOCIAL: TOWARD BIOPOLITICS IN VICTOR PELEVIN'S WORK", haven't read but third page has a section titled "Biopolitics in Foucault"
asciilifeform: i'll confess that i always pictured phf as literally the hero from 'generationp'
asciilifeform: given as i missed out on the pleasure of the '90s in person, and he -- not
asciilifeform: 'While he was working in the kiosk (it went on for a little less than a year), Tatarsky acquired two new qualities. The first was a cynicism as boundless as the view from the Ostankino television tower; the second was something quite remarkable and inexplicable. Tatarsky only had to glance at a customer's hands to know whether he could short-change him and by exactly how much, whether he could be insulting to him, w
asciilifeform: hether there was any likelihood of being passed a false banknote and whether he could pass on a false note himself. There was no definite system involved in all this. Sometimes a fist like a hairy water-melon would appear in the little window, but it was obvious that Tatarsky could quite safely send its owner to hell and beyond. Then sometimes Tatarsky's heart would skip a beat in fright at the sight of a slim female hand
asciilifeform: with manicured nails.'
asciilifeform will even re-read in engl., which previously could not have conceived of wanting to do.
phf: hah, nah, i'm more of petka from chapayev i pustota. i spent the 90s with amateur esotericists. i didn't actually get to play the businessman, so didn't acquire any of these skills
asciilifeform: well specifically the mushroom d00d
asciilifeform: ''And what will it do for me?' 'You'll see soon enough,' replied Gireiev. 'You'll be drying them for winter yourself.''
phf: by the time i started figuring out the socioeconomic part of the question it was a year too late (they started tightening the screws some time before putin came to power, which was not so much the beginning but the announcement of the done deal. i remember '99 the situation of a lot of people changed drastically.)
phf: i.e. a handful of arrests, a handful of "demoted and moved to a different department" etc. and at least one death that we knew was no longer "bratki"
mircea_popescu: o hai
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687884 << i had my life's ethers invested in paypalcoin please help.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:48 BingoBoingo: OMG STILL CRASHING!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687890 << "they just mean well". if they could get the honest social signal / justthefacs!!! already ploxty.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:13 ben_vulpes is regularly surprised at the thickness of derp found in the 'security community'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687893 << no it wasn't same derp see, as per ancient south park, ustards are allowed to be "different" when need be.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:16 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687889 << ben_vulpes ponder the sheer hilarity of the 'they revoked key based on faux signature!11' by same derp who heckled the 'peter anvin' key affair
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687900 << but what is this greatness composed of ?
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:19 asciilifeform: ( pretty great title, too )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687915 << the problem with these "distinctions" is that they propose to import ntp in to "work". im not about to drag that into codebase, and i dont' care for "working" so defined.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:36 asciilifeform: other thing is, even if you don't want for anything the 'milk' (cpu cycles etc) of pwned derp, and simply going for max materiel damage, formatting hdd is not necessarily the max
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687945 << the problem is that the russian intellectual pose is very irritating to me. the whole fucking text exists so that the author can "roll his eyes" however you say that in russian, aka to bake in somehow unobservedly the proposition the speaker and all those like him aren't horse's asses. it doesn't amuse me in 16yo usian chicks ; let alone in 36 yo russian doods.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:49 asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu would prolly snoar, however, this setting is old hat to him. )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687947 <<->> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687072 and no, the similarities do not stop there.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:52 phf: ahaha, http://www.jstor.org.sci-hub.cc/stable/23349218?seq=3#page_scan_tab_contents "THE MONSTROUS AGGREGATE OF THE SOCIAL: TOWARD BIOPOLITICS IN VICTOR PELEVIN'S WORK", haven't read but third page has a section titled "Biopolitics in Foucault"
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 01:28 mircea_popescu: aaaahahahaha o brother. "postmodern film/video theory & crit with an emphasis on phenomenology" ? reheheheally.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:57 phf: hah, nah, i'm more of petka from chapayev i pustota. i spent the 90s with amateur esotericists. i didn't actually get to play the businessman, so didn't acquire any of these skills
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-21#1687960 << hey, smartass dood too busy importantly nosebreathing about "how he doesn't like manele" / "evil banana republic" instead of queuing up in the recruitment strip clubs.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-21 00:04 phf: i.e. a handful of arrests, a handful of "demoted and moved to a different department" etc. and at least one death that we knew was no longer "bratki"
mircea_popescu: this is how http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687683 / http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687686 exactly works : footsoldier element of chickfield equivalent feels, see that, FEELS in his fulla-shit guts not merely that he is BETTER THAN such employment, but that he can... SEPARATE himself from the system. and in that bloody crevice of placenta abrupta the blessings of socialism fungate.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:06 mircea_popescu: the proposition that we'd end up with a sort of uci-as-nsa and l1-as-subtstitute-for-dnc is very much the proposition that, "you know what ? inca also corrupts"
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 20:07 mircea_popescu: this is observably true, in history : the proposition that "it's a great idea to live above your means" was the proximate cause of "french revolution" and every other socialist attack on money hence
mircea_popescu: and so now all of 'em got exactly what they were asking for. no more "evil banana republic" and their sense of "superior detachment' unhindered. they can roll their eyes all they want ; and it's not just the last but also the only thing to do.
mircea_popescu: for the people who hallucinate choice where there is no space for them to choose, a usg will always be found somewhere.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F92A17F4E8024732CEFD26BCDEF00A638E63BE3D6A133D8C86A963BA62704EC6 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1735...2813 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '18.104.22.168 (ssh-rsa key from 22.214.171.124 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (server.scalabrini.com.br. BR)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F92A17F4E8024732CEFD26BCDEF00A638E63BE3D6A133D8C86A963BA62704EC6 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1381...1273 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '126.96.36.199 (ssh-rsa key from 188.8.131.52 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (server.scalabrini.com.br. BR)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-21#1687970 << just when i thought i get it - i dun get it!
a111: Logged on 2017-07-21 01:22 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687915 << the problem with these "distinctions" is that they propose to import ntp in to "work". im not about to drag that into codebase, and i dont' care for "working" so defined.
asciilifeform: ( ftr asciilifeform knew - from experience - that infection/persistence/stealth on idjit winblowz boxes takes extraordinary pain, for little to no gain; and is somewhat surprised to see mircea_popescu apparently convinced nao )
mircea_popescu: im not sure i'm either.
asciilifeform: makes drawing uranium from ocean look like great business in comparison
mircea_popescu: why is it business ?
asciilifeform: what's it then
asciilifeform: i did it as sport.
mircea_popescu: alright, works.
asciilifeform: sorta like mircea_popescu's man , boy and dog trio
asciilifeform: and their sport
mircea_popescu: why do you expect you'd be invested in persistence ? and why is it not obvious, "getting my kids (ie, specified moo moos) to stay interested in republic persistently is extraordinary pain for no gain"
mircea_popescu: dude... SHOOT THEM. have woman make other ones.
mircea_popescu: nobody gives a shit about the persistence of bullcrap.
asciilifeform: persistence is term of art
mircea_popescu: but what it denotes is nonsense.
asciilifeform: items like mining trojan, or cc harvester, operator wants to stay put for a while
mircea_popescu: none of that has anything to do.
asciilifeform: thinking moar of '90s 'format his hdd' then?
mircea_popescu: there's a limit to this "understanding new ideas through the old forms of experience". that limit is, when the new idea parts start getting procusted.
asciilifeform: i'm still waiting for the new bit
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am thinking of exactly what i said, no more, not less. if you own a computer you wipe the crap and install workable software on it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: finding new arse through which to do this to same idjits again, and again.. is work. heavy work.
asciilifeform: folx generally do it for +ev
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F92A17F4E8024732CEFD26BCDEF00A638E63BE3D6A133D8C86A963BA62704EC6 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1735...2813 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '184.108.40.206 (ssh-rsa key from 220.127.116.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (server.scalabrini.com.br. BR)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B194524425A0C7D4B8E776FEFFD3C76B0DA95D29D98FC1A3BDECEAD1AD54F169 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1735...2813 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '18.104.22.168 (ssh-rsa key from 22.214.171.124 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (126.96.36.199.vitalnetprovedor.com.br. BR MG)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B194524425A0C7D4B8E776FEFFD3C76B0DA95D29D98FC1A3BDECEAD1AD54F169 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1553...6617 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '188.8.131.52 (ssh-rsa key from 184.108.40.206 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (220.127.116.11.vitalnetprovedor.com.br. BR MG)
mircea_popescu: nothing else has any bearing on it. if the computer you own happens to be a laptop and it happens to be the third week thieves broke into your car and stole your laptop, this makes absolutely no difference re "own computer--clean and install". you might park your car some other place, but you won't change what's done to owned computer.
asciilifeform: anybody who cultivated 0days with own hands will know what i meant.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> gotta wonder what was the thought process. 'i'ma pay for dope with shitpal just this ONCE' ?? << Nah, he wanted to be Alpha and bought GOLD MEMBERSHIP to forum linked to Return of Kinks
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so let folks do it for whatever reason they do it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they're already doing it, neh.
asciilifeform: i thought we were contemplating something novel tho.
mircea_popescu: sanity is only a novel item to the sort of people who autosnap to random nonsense. no, it's not novel, it's sanity.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo well, he was rich and where's teh babes!!11 rite ?
asciilifeform: interestingly, when asciilifeform worked as a pro collector and reverser of virii - found, to great sadness, that the 'art' mostly died.
asciilifeform: ( iirc we had thread, where described this )
mircea_popescu: well, govts started hiring. of course it died.
asciilifeform: every yr or so, found something recognizably 'ru style', asm polymorpher etc
asciilifeform: but could count these on 1 hand fingers
asciilifeform: usg's shit, contrary to popular delusion, is deadly boring
mircea_popescu: i dunno who holds the notion it isn't ? afaik ~consensus, boring.
asciilifeform: ( you dun need cleverness if you have microshit )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the idjit av 'press' did
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo well, he was rich and where's teh babes!!11 rite ? << lol
mircea_popescu: the fix going in is always bad for the cabaret act.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the faux news copy depts are in the business of "thinking" carbonated sugar is EXCITING
mircea_popescu: (and yes, before you ask, this DOES work. to the sort of derp discussed above, the one with "options" he hallucinated)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sad thing is, these weren't the honestly, organically retarded, but the mendacious and complicit sort
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687838 << riddle me this. when $nobody pops in and asks a question, do you answer on the basis of the present (ie, the question wasn't fucktarded) or do you answer on the basis of some sort of judgement that the dude behind the nick is going to i dunno, stick around and then lend you a pack of ciggs in april 2021 ?
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 21:29 asciilifeform: 'whatever' is only ever uttered by folx who don't have to lift a finger.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-21#1687972 << this is utterly and completely so, and is the reason i was never able to stomach most of p's worx. but a few of them i found entertaining for somewhat perverse thematic reason that i would not expect, elg
a111: Logged on 2017-07-21 01:28 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687945 << the problem is that the russian intellectual pose is very irritating to me. the whole fucking text exists so that the author can "roll his eyes" however you say that in russian, aka to bake in somehow unobservedly the proposition the speaker and all those like him aren't horse's asses. it doesn't amuse me in 16yo usian chicks ; let alone in 36 yo russian doods.
asciilifeform: e.g. mircea_popescu to share
asciilifeform: ( he dun need a vicarious smell of the '90s, for instance, he lived'em )
mircea_popescu: i'll tell you something else : it lasted a lot longer in ro. cca 2004. and in that half decade, we burned and permanently affixed to inside of architecture A LOT of those same ugly faces that were all "oh, it went away in russia, only matter of time". if you've seen miller's crossing (you should) the stereotypical objectionable faggot's desperation at the end (but there's no angle!! look into your heart!!!) is very much descr
mircea_popescu: those were the best times.
asciilifeform: i hear it still goes , in ukrlandia
mircea_popescu: and they existed very much because ro girls, unlike russki stupid cunts, did NOT perceive themselves at some kind of liberty to not whore up for the gangster class.
asciilifeform: ( wai mircea_popescu not there, i wondered )
mircea_popescu: old, lazy, unconvinced, pick.
asciilifeform: ukrs -- world's most eager whores, neh
mircea_popescu: this isn't the criteria per se.
asciilifeform: dunno that it ever really 'ends' , some background trickle of folx needin' affixin' to inside of new cement, get so affixed, in all times, neh
asciilifeform: ( lulzily i saw 'youtube' not long ago and got the 'recommended' film 'how to try to float with cement boots' ... )
mircea_popescu: it ends, in the sense that you either have the critical mass of organised youth raping and pillaging, or you do not. and the drag force of whether young cunts (and no, boys aren't anything but young cunts ftr) do perceive they're alive and do follow sense ; or imagine themselves dead and hang out with the stupid old women makes a difference irl.
mircea_popescu: it's not "most eager whores". it's whether 15 yo is "i will burn down the fucking house while you sleep rather than not follow these guys".
mircea_popescu: eg it's quite plainly to see argentina will go straight to shit : 16yo there is following her mom around, rather than being ashamed of being seen with her.
mircea_popescu: ro chicks were, pointedly, ashamed of being seen, ever, with their mothers.
asciilifeform: 'end of ru 90s' is sometimes presented as 'low hanging loot ran out'. tru or not ?
mircea_popescu: end of ru 90s was strictly desertion into perelman fantasyworld by the foot soldier. much like end of europe 1700s was -- desertion into socialist fantasyworld by foot soldier.
asciilifeform: well-fed pirates dun desert.
mircea_popescu: and the incontrovertible truth of the matter is that you can ALWAYS desert into fantasyworld. "marry jesus" rather than the extant boys.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform from experience, feeding has nothing to do. it's just a function of vanity and nothing else.
mircea_popescu: people who overperceive themselves always desert no matter how fed ; and people who don't overperceive themselves never do, also no matter how fed.
asciilifeform: yeah but why be a pirate and presumably a good one and then suddenly marryjesus.
mircea_popescu: there is no accounting for stupid.
mircea_popescu: why be a professor and actually a good one and then suddenly marry a cab ?
asciilifeform: failed shot at the brass ring neh
asciilifeform: nobody sets out to cab
mircea_popescu: because nothing can beat the sugar of self delusion in those so inhabituated ; much like there's no dating in the future of Masturbation S Elliot.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it never was a shot at brass ring, no.
mircea_popescu: there was jewish imigration into the us before ; you know them by name, like you know, murder inc.
mircea_popescu: this last wave was piddlepiss.
mircea_popescu: meyer lansky is a name you know. anon soviet uni professor is a name you do not know.
asciilifeform: largely 'plankton', last wave, aha
mircea_popescu: lansky was plankton in fucking grodno.
asciilifeform: 'officeplankton', term of art in ru sphere
mircea_popescu: THAT was failed shot at brass ring. those people -- actually tried.
asciilifeform: waitasec, in what sense lansky 'failure' ? the hollywood racket boss ?
mircea_popescu: hey, i give you the one success in the whole "jewish mafia" troop to make the point -- actually tried. one did ring it ; most didn't. but all tried.
asciilifeform: if that's failure, what's success
mircea_popescu: !#s undzer shtik
mircea_popescu: well now there is.
asciilifeform: iirc we recently had the 'sausage emigres' thread. most of the folx were really 'running from own stupid self' and this is not mega-seekrit.
mircea_popescu: right. so no, not actually tried ; and yes, married cab.
mircea_popescu: because it's very convenient, a cab, for their purpose. it allows the "ironic detachment" with still a modicum of interaction present.
mircea_popescu: if i were one of them i'd also run a cab.
asciilifeform: 'i wanna have my soul weighed! i am great hero inside' 'd00d, anubis weighed you: cab. 4evah'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik 'ironic detachment' is a young cock thing. old folx just cab.
asciilifeform: silently, for the most part.
mircea_popescu: hardly. none of these have a plain and simple nigger's "I never injured any of those women," reflected I, with meek resignation: "but God will be kinder to me and to my errors than they are!" conviction.
asciilifeform: ( they also collected sad welfare cheques and sat on brighton beach, but these mostly collected by the reaper by nao )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's "silently" in that they can't be arsed to communicate the spinning any longer. not in the sense it's not there.
asciilifeform: my telepathy-fu is is not up to the job of saying what was in the heads of the silent cabbies. so i'll take mircea_popescu's word.
mircea_popescu talks to lots of cabbies.
asciilifeform: do they reveal 'i'ma write great poems any day nao!1!' ?
asciilifeform: or moar complicated
mircea_popescu: incidentally, mob history is very apropos. so -- originally, hard set loser elements of the sicilian caudillo class moved over, and aimed to maintain in the new place the old place. this did not work irl, because they were small portion of the new place (worked fine in argentina later).
asciilifeform: relatedly to 'kinder than they were', ever read short by jack london 'the chinago' ?
mircea_popescu: the 2nd generation did not care for this, and so literally sybilled the old shcmucks (luciano and gang, infiltrated all the orgs, and ~randomly picked a boss to kill first while feigning loyalty to the other)
mircea_popescu: possibly the most visible and best documented case of a sybiling in nature.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform moar complicated ; yes read.
asciilifeform: apropos imho
mircea_popescu: generally, the cab's "rolled eyes" is almost never in the form of "great american novel". he'll disapprove loudly of the whores, for instance, even as he depends on them for his only sexual outlet.
mircea_popescu: but he DISAPPROVES see. of things, specific.
mircea_popescu: it's a whole pile.
asciilifeform: few thing folx hate moar than the liquishit they ~rely~ on as sole sustenance
asciilifeform: ( gentoo!11 )
asciilifeform: the forced dependency -- grates. the detail that it is forced by the sufferer's own inadequacy is never interesting to him
asciilifeform: ( the ones to whom it was interesting - ate nagant and you won't meet'em )
asciilifeform: !!up Cory
deedbot: Cory voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: who might you be, Cory ?
Cory: Sorry, haven't spoken in a while. I mostly idle here.
asciilifeform: what do you find interesting in your lurk, Cory ?
asciilifeform: ... the connects and disconnects? 'cause everything else, you can read in the logz
asciilifeform: ( and iirc Framedragger's log even has connectolade ! )
asciilifeform: i've always wanted to ask the lurkers, why they lurk
asciilifeform: given that there are logs.
asciilifeform: indulge me, Cory , say in what is the thrill.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-21 02:45 asciilifeform: the forced dependency -- grates. the detail that it is forced by the sufferer's own inadequacy is never interesting to him
asciilifeform: recall how elliot (tm)(r) despised his father's house etc
asciilifeform: or what was it , 'was given a mere merc 600 to drive'
mircea_popescu: inca has his rock to carry, let inca carry it.
mircea_popescu: they will complain to me about republican ux and to the inca about the poverty of the bribes.
mircea_popescu: one of these -- cares. as per the definition of the terms.
asciilifeform: beelzebub answers prayers. but only as he knows how : with moar flies.
mircea_popescu: back to the ironic detachement of they already detached : guy will never construct his nonsense into a positive something, like a great detachtard novel (which is what makes elliot so remarkable, it's like seeing what the africans thought an airplane'd be like, BY THEMSELVES). it's always a little formal curl that begets the whole system if you can be arsed to unearth it. so he disapproves of the whore's speech, or dress or m
mircea_popescu: anner. not because he hates her as she's his only lay (and willingly and freely given, at that) but because subtle differences of no actual substance are important to him as the basis and guarantee of the imagined substance of his own self.
mircea_popescu: something in the vein of, "he disapproves of her lipstick, because its color is almost but not quite imperial purple, and he's prophyrogenitos himself".
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> beelzebub answers prayers. but only as he knows how : with moar flies. << Gotta be you own devil