Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2017-06-26 | 2017-06-28 →
asciilifeform: << lol it takes time to generate commentz, i not long got back from long lulztrip
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 03:28 mircea_popescu: << i take it asciilifeform had no comment ? :D
asciilifeform: << ht is not a legitimate concept, like, e.g., pipelining, but instead an ill-conceived attempt to speed up 'winblows as it existed at the time'
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 03:53 mircea_popescu: <<< sadly this question is not unlike asking "has multiplication ever actually worked".
asciilifeform: it does 0 to well-written code -- other than slow down, and -- behold -- sometimes breaks semantics entirely
asciilifeform: code that is built with awareness of the pipeline ~cannot~ leave any room for ht to have any useful effect - elementarily
asciilifeform: ( for n00bs : 'hyperthreading' attemps to marshal 'resources unused by the current instruction' - say, the ALU during a memory fetch - into becoming, through sleight of hand, 'a cpu core' that is , while said resources are available, behaving as a cpu, executing instructions )
deedbot: << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Racing for a Cure 6 – Edmonton
mircea_popescu: << moreover, these are data containers, non reflective non recursive what's the similarity in tyhe fgirst6 place
a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 17:29 asciilifeform: if 'full builds are infeasible', your tree is mis-structured.
mircea_popescu: << possibly one of the least visible pillars of tmsr for newcomers, because in world of socialist liquid shit everything is "mutable" ie liquid shit, and not accidentally. but because the only way socialism may masquerade as "sensible" is through rendering the past meaningless.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 17:31 asciilifeform: no changing-of-the-past.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 18:05 shinohai: Dat nearly 20% drop of ETH in 24 hrs >.>
a111: Logged on 2017-06-22 07:44 mircea_popescu: to satisfy -- try and fuck with btc price, discover eth "price" was a joke all along.
mircea_popescu: <<< it's a good thing that the successful introduction of ipv6 rendered such considerations mute.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 20:07 asciilifeform: from earlier, lulz, 'In April 2017, an unexpected and disruptive change was made to the MIT network: the sale of historically MIT-allocated IP address ranges to external entities such as Amazon. The sale wasn't announced to the MIT community until after it had taken effect. '
mircea_popescu: also amazon is only supporting python 3 with orcisms ; and other lulz.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 20:17 shinohai: #rekt
mircea_popescu: << while phf is right, nobody lasts forever, and linus is getting old.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-26 23:02 phf: nah, that's your monthly occurrence.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-25 17:01 mp-en-managua: apparently fucktards learned nothing of the doge slaughter, still believe "promotion" matters.
mircea_popescu: and in other disbeliefs, i can't imagine anyone'd fucking read that plaintive undisciplined-female-whining mailing list ffs. what the everloving fuck.
mod6: shit show
mircea_popescu: coding without v and without #t. how do they do it, i have nfi.
mircea_popescu lolzd at the whole shoe problem, because nicaragua has a healthy contingent of dumb white whores who went there to suck native cock and "get in touch with teh earth" paddling around barefoot in the streets and "learning" the "fascinating" how to twist a necklage together "antique traditional skills" sandy invented last decade.
mircea_popescu: but hey, at least they get buggered sore like a hobo's whore. that + gallo pinto > what they got at home.
mod6: heheheh
mircea_popescu: << this is very much so, and very much why both a) and b) there not being an auto-signatron or decryptatron or so forth deployed anywhere in teh vast expanses of la serenissima.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 00:57 asciilifeform: sina: one of the things gossipd needs is a constant-time-constant-space rsa. if you don't have one, enemy can derive your privkeys remotely based on timing.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 18:07 mircea_popescu: doth not entertain me
mircea_popescu: << it's not clear to me what he means by session ; might be some internal-only thing (eg, lifetime of particular sig) which isn't breaking.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 01:02 asciilifeform: for one thing, there IS NO SESSION in gossipd (either my concept or either of mircea_popescu's two essays)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1462...2939 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( CZ)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1762...0867 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( CZ)
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> more of a case of finely evolved nose. we can smell it at nearly ppb. << Worst part of smoking cessation is having a sense of smell again. Still not sure it's worth it.
ben_vulpes: << excepting the special case of the bots
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 04:53 mircea_popescu: << this is very much so, and very much why both a) and b) there not being an auto-signatron or decryptatron or so forth deployed anywhere in teh vast expanses of la serenissima.
mircea_popescu: well, obv this is at teh ops option. but i'd have imagined that not excepting.
mircea_popescu: very trivial to make fixed time upping after all.
mircea_popescu: !!up hair_soup
deedbot: hair_soup voiced for 30 minutes.
hair_soup: shenanigans!
mircea_popescu: aaand who might you be
hair_soup: oh, ben_vulpes
phf: << i've been using that one for a while, with a trackball in the middle. i'm pretty happy with that setup. i've figured out how to get the firmware out of the controller, so i'm hoping to customize some of the keys (that are otherwise useless)
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 03:24 mod6: concave job. 'kinesis advantage 2'
BingoBoingo: !!up kcud_dab
deedbot: kcud_dab voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: !!up renart
deedbot: renart voiced for 30 minutes.
hair_soup: aaaand there it goes.
mod6: that was some uber lag
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: unless the bot is to stay down until the op awakes?
BingoBoingo has a simulated alf in head that complains Supreme Court review is too slow for Trumpreich to overturn all of the shitty lesser courts on everything
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes !!up and then !!v +5 mins ?
mod6: phf: nice, let me know if you get there. i'd like to re-map some of 'em too.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i mean to say in the case that the op is asleep when the bot goes offline, it'll stay that way until the op awakes
mircea_popescu: and i mean to say that if the bot always verifies after a fixed time there's... fixed time.
ben_vulpes: and must be an auto-decryptulator?
mircea_popescu: not necessarily, but how'd you know.
BingoBoingo: !!up candi_lustt
deedbot: candi_lustt voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes rolls eyes
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes she should prolly move to control seq
ben_vulpes: gonna need two while we're at it
mircea_popescu: lemme check where we're at
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes !W as lobbes got !Q
ben_vulpes: may i have R as well?
mod6: not sure if that helps.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes for the same bot ?
ben_vulpes: mod6: yeah, i bitched about that a day or so ago; now i have stale dns
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: nono
mircea_popescu: then yes.
mod6: ben_vulpes: ah, aight.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: ty
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski << add !W for candi_lustt and !R for mimisbrunnr
mircea_popescu: or was it the other way round
ben_vulpes: a nod's as good as a wink to a blind man
mircea_popescu: she's a sport ? ? ???
ben_vulpes: does she? does she?
mircea_popescu: << this is the fundamental problem here. if we're not really using encryption then we're not really using encryption.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 01:11 asciilifeform: and if i can break 1, can break any and all.
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between encryption and obfuscation.
mircea_popescu: << well, without crypto and without gossip. but then again the latter not meaningfully possible without former anyway.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 01:28 asciilifeform: irc is exactly 'gossipd without crypto'.
mircea_popescu: << it does work, but at glacial speeds unfit for messaging. eg, !!v won't spill out of minutes-long windows.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 01:50 asciilifeform: arbitrary 'don't report the answer for T units of time' doesn't work, because you have no hard assurance of no spill.
mircea_popescu: << your correct answer there was to say you use FG as a clock. which'd have totally sunk him, "my time comes in MB entropy chunks, ha-HA!"
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 01:55 sina: fine, what if we assume two independent computers
BingoBoingo: AHA scintillatored FG clock
BingoBoingo: As opposed to sintered FG cock
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: done.
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: shoot me a list of all the commands for your bots when you have a min.
mircea_popescu: prolly in a few days thay
pete_dushenski: all good
sina: << sorry I used the wrong term there, I meant the operator. what I ended up with re that query is approximately what you've got there, except it's a two step process. 1. gossipc --add-peer --name sina --host <host> --port <port> which furnishes you a pubkey you can exchange with that peer (and they vice versa with you) and a seperate command to set the peer key
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 03:12 mircea_popescu: << introductions aren't intended to be handled by gossipd. the correct way to do this is for me to say "add 8A56264EAD0BC4BD9CD7AC0086B488AB sina" which is a legitimate pubkey of your gossipd, AND for you to go whatever re mine. then they can talk, change keys etc. not before./
mircea_popescu: alright then
pete_dushenski: also, yes, stale page ben_vulpes. url back to orig.
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: it'll grow over time, i'll letcha know
pete_dushenski: as they do. but if you could summarise what you have to date i can tableise them and post.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2447.5, vol: 22759.91542862 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2460.999, vol: 9149.36296 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2428.1, vol: 37045.18114702 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2717.274662, vol: 13794.94400000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2436.86, vol: 10020.0253678 | Volume-weighted last average: 2480.05106835
BingoBoingo: Hmmm markets seemed to prefer mp as a jaguar spirit
pete_dushenski: the love of great inca is a nasty habit to kick
pete_dushenski: << autonomous lulz. perhaps of interest to ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: har har har
ben_vulpes: wire autocannon into carbot
pete_dushenski: "Volvo Australia's technical manager David Pickett told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) on Saturday that his company has been trying to solve the issue for 18 months. He said the way a kangaroo moves completely bamboozles the system -- a problem they haven't had with other animals around the world."
pete_dushenski: inb4 "you call that an autocannon, THIS is an autocannon" and roos shoot back
ben_vulpes: tank girl!
BingoBoingo: So the solution is invasivitize roo's to the rest of the world to stop GoogAppAzon
ben_vulpes: !!up candi_lustt
deedbot: candi_lustt voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: !W (mpfhf:mpfhf #*10101010101010101010101010101010101010 8)
candi_lustt: ben_vulpes: #*10111011
mircea_popescu: candi_lustt wanna sex ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes can it be pushed into single line by appending the log bit ?
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: "candi_lustt evals everything after !W in an SBCL environment with full access to the underlying host."
mircea_popescu: "do not break it."
ben_vulpes: needs saying?!
mircea_popescu: possibly. who knows, manuals.
ben_vulpes: look either you return the hooker in working order or kill her and hide the body and make yourself scarce.
mircea_popescu: !W (ret "there is an atmosphere of toxic masculinity brewing in this channel!")
mircea_popescu: aok then
candi_lustt: ben_vulpes: 5
BingoBoingo: !W cat niggers.txt
BingoBoingo: candi_lustt: das racis
ben_vulpes: omg is lisp repl not fucking bash shell!!
ben_vulpes cranks one-armed bandit again
ben_vulpes: !!up candi_lustt
deedbot: candi_lustt voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: !W (mpfhf:mpfhf #*10101010101010101010101010101010101010 8)
ben_vulpes: of course i need a space before the closing paren
ben_vulpes: of course
ben_vulpes: !!up candi_lustt
deedbot: candi_lustt voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: !W (mpfhf:mpfhf #*10101010101010101010101010101010101010 8)
ben_vulpes: !W (values 1 2)
ben_vulpes: figures.
ben_vulpes: should be good now
ben_vulpes: << home orifice is another quarter or 4 months away yet; and the republic calls even in the dead of night
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 03:21 mircea_popescu: << consider that the damage you already did to modern man's most important joint is permanent. do not add.
sina: ok so I implemented some p2p encryption for the gossipd thingo
sina: but each peer can see the msg plaintext of the messages for now
sina: mircea_popescu: is it intention that there should be encryption from author to recipient as well?
mircea_popescu: << there's no intention that there would be plaintext anything, wtf.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 09:15 sina: mircea_popescu: is it intention that there should be encryption from author to recipient as well?
mod6: mornin'
mod6: :]
asciilifeform: << lol, are those f-keys rubber?!
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 05:12 phf: << i've been using that one for a while, with a trackball in the middle. i'm pretty happy with that setup. i've figured out how to get the firmware out of the controller, so i'm hoping to customize some of the keys (that are otherwise useless)
asciilifeform: << there are side-channels other than timing, and some -- readable from considerable distance
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 05:42 mircea_popescu: << it does work, but at glacial speeds unfit for messaging. eg, !!v won't spill out of minutes-long windows.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 19:45 asciilifeform: hypothetically i could even do it ( supposing your rsatron is mains-powered ) by observing the imperceptible dimming of the room lights, from 5km away
asciilifeform: against these, 'time boxing' does 0.
asciilifeform: hypothetically -- even ping time might well have enough of a correlation to cpu load, that you can distinguish 'remanent of time cushion' from 'still rsa-ing' and eliminate the cushion.
asciilifeform: *remnant
asciilifeform: << this is actually more likely to sink you than simply using a very large time cushion would.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 05:44 mircea_popescu: << your correct answer there was to say you use FG as a clock. which'd have totally sunk him, "my time comes in MB entropy chunks, ha-HA!"
asciilifeform: ( why -- i will leave as an exercise )
asciilifeform: lulzily, it was mircea_popescu who originally taught asciilifeform this fact
asciilifeform: i fughet when, might be in old l0gz
mircea_popescu: republican humour, man. it's a thing.
asciilifeform: >> 'B2B BABY ... Chcete se stát naším obchodním partnerem?'
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 04:59 deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1762...0867 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( CZ)
asciilifeform: in other hilarities,
asciilifeform: e.g. 'MH has been found on Intel motherboards around 2007 – 2008 in Russia. Intel Corporation has never announced that it had or has a hypervisor in BMC system management software. We did not get any comments from the corporation after we provided a copy of the paper.'
asciilifeform: d00d posted it to list and of course banhammered as 'off topic'
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 04:45 mircea_popescu: and in other disbeliefs, i can't imagine anyone'd fucking read that plaintive undisciplined-female-whining mailing list ffs. what the everloving fuck.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tell him to maybe consider qntraing it ?
asciilifeform: i dun post no moar
asciilifeform: banned as veteran spammer, after phuctor thread
asciilifeform: and, are the swine worth the pearls.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with that eval is that you don't know until after they aren't worth the pearls.
asciilifeform: which is why on occasion i strap into the bathyscaph and go
mircea_popescu: anyway, getting the "unhappened" to at least know there's a name for it can't hurty anything
mircea_popescu: well, not anything worth caring about at any rate
asciilifeform: << which bot here does secret key ops ?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 05:08 ben_vulpes: << excepting the special case of the bots
asciilifeform: ( enciphering a challenge is not a secretkeyop )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they respond to deedbot
asciilifeform: afaik deedbot is currently the only thing auto-signing ( inside its tx-issuing trb )
mircea_popescu: that's bitcoin style
asciilifeform: << i took a 300+km trip by train, on east coast of usa, not long ago, and it was quite a sight - carcasses of dead factories, ex-trainstations belonging to ex-towns, and other 'dead past' that 'unhappened', plain for naked eye to see
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 04:32 mircea_popescu: << possibly one of the least visible pillars of tmsr for newcomers, because in world of socialist liquid shit everything is "mutable" ie liquid shit, and not accidentally. but because the only way socialism may masquerade as "sensible" is through rendering the past meaningless.
asciilifeform: << there is a handy post-su word, 'распил' ('sawing-apart') to describe the process
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 03:49 mircea_popescu: << sounds entirely like The Drepperization. which is very much the only american technology style left.
Framedragger: << isn't deciphering a challenge an instance of a secret key op?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 14:58 asciilifeform: << which bot here does secret key ops ?
asciilifeform: basic idea - a vermin gets control of, e.g., factory, and processes it as a raw-material base - carefully organizes the disassembly and stealing of what-can-be-stolen, systematically, piece by piece, replacing with 'cheap prothesis' when possible to keep the budget dripping in for as long as practical
asciilifeform: hence 'hey d00dz, why is mit email suddenly in 'cloud' ??!'
asciilifeform: and the evaporating ip blocks, etc.
mircea_popescu: hey, as socialism runs out of the agar, reverts to capitalism
mircea_popescu: gotta take whatever's left out of the hands of the redditards.
asciilifeform: and into the hands of other redditards, lol
mircea_popescu: nicaragua awaits them, by the way. very awoke place.\
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform whoever steals from the stupid man is a cut above the stupid man, whatever his foibles.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: deciphering challenge happens on ~your~ end, not deedbot's
Framedragger: ah, that's what you meant, yeah ok
Framedragger: (true, of course)
Framedragger: yeah i guess that's a nice thing with deedbot, it doesn't need secret key for most of the stuff incl. challenges..
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't clear to me that, e.g., the mit theft, involved any guile or initiative -- is simply the idiot inheritors disassembling their father's house
mircea_popescu: maybe. it doesn't matter : items must increase their market circulation. wife of socialist -> whore ; factory of socialist -> scrap iron, etcetera.
mircea_popescu: money doesn't need anyone to understand what it's doing.
asciilifeform: is raven on battlefield, eating eyes of a corpse, 'a cut above' the soldier?
mircea_popescu: it's alive, innit.
asciilifeform: for him the hour also comes.
mircea_popescu: but -- dead soldier had some proteins locked up. they're getting unlocked.
mircea_popescu: that's the whole thing : my keeping some women out of circulation is a reflection of my power.
asciilifeform: everything gets unlocked.
mircea_popescu: gotta first have that power.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform eventually, sure.
mircea_popescu: but the whole point of life is that retention, temporary as it may be.
asciilifeform: we had the membrane thread iirc.
asciilifeform: in other recent lulzies, >> 'KMail’s ‘Send Later’ caused PGP encrypted private emails to be sent in plain-text'
asciilifeform: Run Moar UserFriendlies
asciilifeform: 'This vulnerability led KMail to not encrypt email messages scheduled to be sent with a delay, even when KMail gave every indication that the email contents would be encrypted using OpenPGP.
mod6: 'sorry for your plaintext sekrets'
mircea_popescu: why the fuck does it even have access to key
asciilifeform: 'i dun wanna raise an' lower the reactor rods by hand!111 too much exercise' 'ugh the indicator told me they lowered and turns out not!11 help'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: idjits have this fondness for 'automate and transparentize pgp' etc
mircea_popescu: right, so as to maximally expose it to the earlier matters discussed
shinohai: Good morning tmsr
asciilifeform: shinohai: nono, see, the ukrs are Officially Nao Europe
asciilifeform: 'Path Towards Europe' (tm)(r) etc
shinohai: lolz
asciilifeform: meanwhile also in the fishwrap, >> 'Reputed New York gangster released from prison at age 100' << '... in and out of prison for much of his adult life ... most recently incarcerated, at the age of 93 in 2010, for a racketeering conspiracy involving the shakedown of New York strip clubs.'
shinohai: Read that the other day, *own son* ratted on him at one point. Omerta is ded.
mircea_popescu: you kidding ? everyone wanna talk! they're just happy if anyone's even giving the appearance of listening.
mircea_popescu: facebookerta.
asciilifeform: meanwhile lulz in ru world : their version of 'silkroad' , but the local custom is to use burial in public places, rather than parcels via the post. so various folx go and... dig 'for treasure'
mircea_popescu: not even bad idea
asciilifeform: iirc we discussed it here, as a theoretical.
asciilifeform: and of course ancient idea, 'dead drop'
mircea_popescu: course ustards are too useless to dig anything
shinohai: This is also known thing in city where one gets texted a "drop point" that requires recipient to find geocache of sorts
asciilifeform: shinohai: is how spies worked, for century+
mircea_popescu: to this day, give or take.
asciilifeform: 'leave the film cassette betweeen 15th and 16th brick in such-such wall' etc
shinohai: But of course, was merely adopted by friendly neighborhood street-corner pharmaceutical representatives.
asciilifeform: the interesting bit re ru is that the dope parcels buried are so small that the operators make ~0 attempt to interfere with 'treasure hunters' who paid 0
asciilifeform: % of loss considered acceptable, 'priced in'
mircea_popescu: not what it is. dealer always gives out freebies to interested parties who can wait.
mircea_popescu: tits optional
asciilifeform: reportedly, the 'emplacers' regularly get picked up by police and sentenced to 20y, but this, naturally, does 0, new ones -- appear when needed
asciilifeform: also reportedly parks, benches, etc in various towns became a comical sight , where diggers rummage in the earth, like truffle pigs, looking for ???
mircea_popescu: would be funny if all that's left of white civilisation in a century or two is a collection of inexplicable nutty habits, such as ^
mircea_popescu: and no more.
mircea_popescu: pressing ctrl-c ctrl-v in succession, buttons printed on a wall. etc.
asciilifeform: arguably there already.
asciilifeform: re 'buried treasure', i'm somewhat surprised that this approach did not (afaik) catch on in usa
asciilifeform: where there is plenty of good landscape for such
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 16:01 mircea_popescu: course ustards are too useless to dig anything
asciilifeform: dunno that this is so -- i routinely see folx with 'minesweepers' in, e.g., parks, looking for ???
asciilifeform: nobody bothers'em either
mircea_popescu: consumers, dude. they're willing to say some magic incantations / "use the juice", but they ain't fucking willing to not use the post office.
mircea_popescu: ask one. to the fried up mind of the ustarded consumer, "that'd be tantamount to synthesizing the item myself"
mircea_popescu: you know, cuz he's seen a 3d printer once, so totally.
asciilifeform: again, plenty of 'honest cunning' among the us folx. but you won't read of it in the beobachter reddit, no.
asciilifeform: the latter will, yes, dwell on toy choppers etc
mircea_popescu: well, the druggies happen to be === the redditards, so.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason silk road failed to attract as much business as a lemonade stand.
asciilifeform: ( re '3d print pistol', i strongly suspect that whole thing is a psyop, to distract from cheap and effective cnc milling )
mircea_popescu: cnc milling takes work.
mircea_popescu: it's always the same thing with these shitstains.
a111: Logged on 2014-02-16 22:04 asciilifeform: son: 'whatdoyamean i gotta dip them'
asciilifeform: in fact '3d print' takes an astonishing amount of work. extremely finicky process, takes much 'babysit'
mircea_popescu: somehow that dun count.
asciilifeform: ~sold~, yes, as '0 work'
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's not patriarchy-racist or w/e
asciilifeform: the moar interesting, imho, aspect of the ru buriedtreasure thing is that ( again, thirdhandedly ) it is managed as a pure 'btc-in btc-out' operation
asciilifeform: i.e. operator sits far, far away, and pays lieutenant to obtain 500g of $substance and bury. then 'packager' gets coordinates, and excavates, then reburies in aliquots of 1g
asciilifeform: and takes photos, records coords of ea.
asciilifeform: then purchasers get coords, pick up.
asciilifeform: operator never sets foot within 3000km of all of this. just sends, receives coin.
asciilifeform: as for how the wotronics are managed -- i have nfi
asciilifeform: but considering that the apparent arrangement stands and falls wholly on wotronics -- i'd guess pretty well.
mircea_popescu: yes, bitcoin renders "the state" obsolete.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it does seem to call into question your 'there is ~0 market for milligrams' thing
mircea_popescu: it does ?
asciilifeform: and, in same piece, the 'meatless contraband is a reddit trendoid thing and will vanish soon' thing
asciilifeform: seems like there is massive set of dope aficionados that wants milligram AND wants no-face-meeting
mircea_popescu: i think you're supplementing by imagination all sorts of corners. there's a cost to bury.
asciilifeform: unless whole thing is disinfo.
asciilifeform: for all i know -- whole thing is a fabrication
mircea_popescu: and if i'm going to go dig up rabbit, im not digging up a spoonfull, im digging up enough to fill freezer.
asciilifeform: if the 'dead drop dope' thing is actually true as reported -- it is a 'britneyization', the dealer replaces 1 mircea_popescu with 10,001 milligramderps
mircea_popescu: reddit trendoid thing is "omg 3d printing GUNZ!!!" as well as "OMG USPS DRUGZZ!!!" etc
asciilifeform: for -- presumably -- +ev
mircea_popescu: where is such thing reported, other than your own reading.
asciilifeform: !~google нарко закладки
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Закладки наркотиков в подъезде: как бороться? – Вопрос: <>; Закладки в подъездах! - Pikabu: <>; [УЖАС] Наркоманы ищут закладку (наркотики) перед детьми в ...: (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: meanwhile irl, if you cut a brick of coke 3:1 and bury the resulting miligrams indisivuallty you will be digging a million ditches.
asciilifeform: beauty is -- not YOU will dig
asciilifeform: but 1,001 expendable idiots.
mircea_popescu: link to the "about 1mn ditches per brick" piece.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this part exists entirely in the fantasticly fertile imagination that also has them on boats.
mircea_popescu: possibly made of frozen sawdust.
asciilifeform: again , whole thing could be ~fabrication. but not mine, but of ru prosecutors. << example from 2016.
asciilifeform: but i see nothing inherently fantastic about the notion that 1,001 derps each of whom buys a ??? of unknown purity for 1,001% markup, could be +ev vs conventional 'brick' buyer.
mircea_popescu: the million ditches.,
mircea_popescu: even if such a dig takes less than one hour of derp's time and no transportation, the fact remains that 1mn hours of minimum wage are > 1mn $ even in russhitia ; wheas a brick of anything is < 100k.
asciilifeform: spammers work > for < pay..
mircea_popescu: there's better things to do with an army of obedient dorks ready to die than this.
mircea_popescu: farming them out to ourdemocracy "ngo"s comes to mind.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> hm. BingoBoingo see if dood wants to write a qntra post ? and all that. << Which dude where?
mircea_popescu: the one that got bannered
BingoBoingo tried detangling logthread to figure out who got banned from what
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: according to the $sources, they dun dig 'ditch', but very low-effort and laughably shallow holes, with, e.g., duct tape 'flag' sticking out; underneath park benches; etc
mircea_popescu: still gotta get there.
asciilifeform: 'there' turns out to be in public places, and both 'hiders' and 'seekers' routinely caught
asciilifeform: but somehow still appeals.
mircea_popescu: so more like a game of childhood than anything
asciilifeform: parks, lobby of apt house, similar
asciilifeform: when i first heard of the practice, i also assumed 'in the forest, like gru agents' etc. -- but turns out, no, in park benches, rubbish bins.
asciilifeform: whole thing imho interesting ~solely from the perspective of '1mn hours of labour, yes, but unpaid'
asciilifeform: like spam.
asciilifeform: the ample idle hours of homo redditicus ~will~ be harvested
asciilifeform: one way or another. 'uber', dope treasure, whichever.
asciilifeform: the other interesting aspect of '1,001 idjits vs 1 brick buyer' is that the former are somewhat accustomed to ~not finding anything~ in the indicated coords
asciilifeform: and so '1 brick' is bezzlated into equiv of 1*K bricks, where K is a pos. constant
asciilifeform: and separately from any dilutions of the customary kind (which are , presumably , also in play)
BingoBoingo: email sent
mircea_popescu: a nice. now lessee if anything happens huh.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> dunno that this is so -- i routinely see folx with 'minesweepers' in, e.g., parks, looking for ??? << loose change
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform drugs are already bezzled to all hell
BingoBoingo: jew-elry etc
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i can't picture the loose change thing being +ev
mircea_popescu: i thought you didn't think that mattered
asciilifeform: i suppose there are nuts, for whom ~nothing matters
mircea_popescu: here's the thing : the per-hour value rummaging throughb park from finding drugz ~= from finding loose change.
mircea_popescu: i don't even fucking take coins.
asciilifeform: incidentally it is in principle possible to make a ~cheap njd, that would fine moar valuable 'dropped item' in a day than a platoon of minesweepers
asciilifeform: (e.g. lost pnojes, etc)
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: it does seem to call into question your 'there is ~0 market for milligrams' thing << milligrams isn't a market, its retail
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is quite astonishing that usg still bothers to mint coins
mircea_popescu: esp considering they doin't want them back
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dope aficionados presumably dig 'for truffle' to ~eat~, rather than sell
asciilifeform: when they run out of what to buy with
mircea_popescu: ie loose change.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it has a fine profile to reeducate idiots. "dig-find-love" or how did that "book"/"movement" go
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your bananistan still mints coins also ?!
mircea_popescu: great coins here, too, total dubloons
mircea_popescu: of course the larger one is ~1 dollar
asciilifeform: are they often met with ?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> meanwhile irl, if you cut a brick of coke 3:1 and bury the resulting miligrams indisivuallty you will be digging a million ditches. << 3000, who gets less than a gram of coke?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo he was on about mgs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw i have a very basic n00b level grasp of the constants in the equations - e.g. how much cocaine is eaten in a typical sitting, etc. so cannot comment usefully re grams
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: i can't picture the loose change thing being +ev << Well less ev if you get minesweeper at garage sale for 1/10th retail because initial purchaser realized -ev
mircea_popescu: typical sitting ? prolly a sugarbowl's worth
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 'minesweeper' costs, what, 50bux new
asciilifeform: like hammer.
asciilifeform: not hightech.
mircea_popescu: nah, the better ones are hundreds
asciilifeform: still not megacapital.
mircea_popescu: well now that all depends.
BingoBoingo: AHA and ~$5 to $10 at garage sale after original purchaser learns math
asciilifeform: (i.e. less than typical ameritard's pnoje)
mircea_popescu: phone has functions!!!
mircea_popescu: anyway. cocaine is one of those items that don't produice leftovers. party will expand until all available consumed.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: fwiw i have a very basic n00b level grasp of the constants in the equations - e.g. how much cocaine is eaten in a typical sitting, etc. so cannot comment usefully re grams << Typical cocaine use is gram after gram after gram after gram, I imagine mp or Tiger Woods level is sugar bowl or candy dish set out in advance
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have difficulty picturing the protagonists of $redditardmarket using 'at party'
mircea_popescu: ~its only utility, really.
asciilifeform: more plausibly they eat alone, while watching anime
ben_vulpes: going to parties, even
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: They still use until consumed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's more a ketamine thing.
BingoBoingo: Principal effect of cocaine intoxication is a desire for more cocaine
asciilifeform: paging gabriel_laddel !!
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo and nudity.
asciilifeform: is there a gabriel_laddel in ze house
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I thought that was more of a PCP thing
mircea_popescu: pcp goes mostly with the roids nuts afaik
asciilifeform: ~later tell btw gabriel_laddel you oughta have received the old comp by nao
asciilifeform: !~later tell btw gabriel_laddel you oughta have received the old comp by nao
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: !~later tell btw Sup
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: in other non-noose, nobody yet bought orlol's ship
asciilifeform: i wonder, how long these typically sit around and rust
asciilifeform: ( the photos suggest that there are possibly rustable parts in it )
BingoBoingo: Well, maybe it sucks?
asciilifeform: also not long ago i was bored on a train and found myself reading the tech docs to the diesel in that thing ( apparently a very common model.) surprisingly ( to asciilifeform ) the 'water going into the tailpipe when motor not running' is still considered an open engineering problem...
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: by the paper specs it seems to be a steal for the price. possibly the problem mircea_popescu mentioned ('lemons') is the tru reason.
asciilifeform: 'lemon car' breaks down on interstate; 'lemon' ship -- 'to davy jones's locker'
BingoBoingo: Well, general with vehicles of any sort... At the point the price becomes a "steal" yes, ownership costs far more than price tag
asciilifeform: at a certain price tag it'd be worth having just for lulz, and to ride within swimming range of land
asciilifeform: ... or possibly not, i have nfi what 'parking' costs for such a beast
asciilifeform: speaking of which, i saw, i shit thee not, a child-sized motorcycle
asciilifeform: entirely working thing, running on laptop (must be) battery, boy of ~8 was rocketing along on it..
asciilifeform: i had nfi this existed.
asciilifeform: not handcrafted thing, either, quite polished, likely - chinese
ben_vulpes: "dress your kids in plastic and train them on lipos"
ben_vulpes: fuckin idiots
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: you've seen the gas powered 'minibikes' though, right?
asciilifeform: not in boy size
asciilifeform: and this thing did not at all resemble ordinary bicycle or 'moped' -- was miniature copy of 'kawasaki ninja' i think
ben_vulpes: at least kiddo was zooming, and had the opportunity to fall over
ben_vulpes: korean neighbor of mine was nervously pacing his kid in an electric 'lotus' knockoff last week
ben_vulpes: moving at no greater than 2 mph
ben_vulpes: oh god what's going to happen, he'll lose control and scramble out of the thing, falling all of six inches?
ben_vulpes: gimme a break
asciilifeform: lol training for 'whale cart' as pictured in BingoBoingo's material
phf: << apparently it's the wrong keyboard :o i used to use advantage back in the day, but now it's
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 14:37 asciilifeform: << lol, are those f-keys rubber?!
phf: i actually like advantage, but it encourages chording, which you hate. those rubber f-keys definitely don't help, but after a while that extra travel time to f-keys gets annoying anyway.
phf: !#s arensito
TomServo: hey asciilifeform they even got foot pedals!
asciilifeform: kinesis ? i had theirs
asciilifeform: imho sucked
asciilifeform: cheapo rubbish
phf: freestyle 2 lacks numpad, but has an extra two columns of keys on the right, sun style, which is unfortunately bound to a bunch of windows/mac functions (like cut/copy). i mostly figured out how to change what those keys send though..
asciilifeform: i'd like to know where i can get a comp pedal that i can REST FUCKING FOOT on
asciilifeform: rather than hover and give myself repetitivestress in joint that nobody even thought of doing it to previously
asciilifeform: what kind of imbecile designs for 'hovering'.
asciilifeform: phf: reminds me of sun's kbd
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> and this thing did not at all resemble ordinary bicycle or 'moped' -- was miniature copy of 'kawasaki ninja' i think << Pit bike. Where I grew up if my parents were cooler,tis likely a thing I could have played with
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i dun think the battery existed then
phf: << mine was written in cweb, i.e. the literate programming thing for c. i haven't finished it, but i got bogged on configuration management.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 00:54 asciilifeform: phf has a very similar gossipd in commonlisp, for instance
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Oh I thought we were talking awesome 2-strokes dirtbikes and pitbikes.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: no, this was this tiny, ~silent thing, that still went at ~motorcycle speed
asciilifeform: no 'vroom', no busybodies coming from miles around to see 'why is 8yo kid on a motorbike'
BingoBoingo: Well there in cooler days were loud things that went at motorcycle speed. Battery thing is for losers
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: for suburbia
phf: in fact i think i'm going to rip out some of the messier linked lists etc. management parts and simply wire in shiva. obviously wouldn't want to use it in the field, but mostly as a thing in itself
asciilifeform: phf: out of what didja make the rsa ?
phf: oh it's the same design as sina, slinging openpgp "packets"
phf: of only interest, it's got a state machine that knows how to parse (and validate as far as allocation and "how big is it?") individual packets, byte by byte and collect them until passing them on to gnupg
asciilifeform: ftr cweb is interesting
asciilifeform: phf: i posted one of these for 'p' recently
asciilifeform: it's the Right Thing.
phf: oh i missed that
mod6: <+a111> Logged on 2017-06-27 14:37 asciilifeform: << lol, are those f-keys rubber?! << apparently the older versions were indeed rubber. they've since gotten rid of that, and are now plastic.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 05:12 phf: << i've been using that one for a while, with a trackball in the middle. i'm pretty happy with that setup. i've figured out how to get the firmware out of the controller, so i'm hoping to customize some of the keys (that are otherwise useless)
mod6: they annoyme... but really all i use is the ESC key, which i've since replaced the windows key with a new normal esc key and remapped.
asciilifeform: mod6: i like 'f' keys.
phf: ascii friendly version of advantage would be "maltron"
asciilifeform: use'em for, e.g., flipping buffers in emacs, etc
asciilifeform: phf: i saw maltron for first and last time in 1980s-era b00k on 'fun of computing' or sumthing
mod6: asciilifeform: ahh
asciilifeform: phf: dunno whether they still made
asciilifeform: mod6: 'midnight commander' also likes fkeys
phf: yeah i wonder, i looked into it 10+ years ago, and punted at the $2000 or whatever price tag
asciilifeform: hence why i consider a box without fat, easy-to-reach 'f's, ~unusable
asciilifeform: 2000 << lol!!
asciilifeform: is custom machined to fit yer hands, of shitanium??
asciilifeform: ( if not -- why not?! for 2000 i can have own motherfucking kbd machined. out of steel. )
asciilifeform: and at some point i might even do it.
BingoBoingo: But will it be a very good keyboard?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the keys are the hard part, not the keyboard
asciilifeform: ( how to make buckling spring is not a secret )
phf: has builtin trackball even, in the right place
asciilifeform: looks like like in the b00k
asciilifeform: pretty neat
asciilifeform: i wonder what the switches are like
BingoBoingo: All sorts of botique business endavors are born thinking "Better materials!!!" are a panacea, then they build their product, and it turns out there are design considerations beyond material
asciilifeform: the site seems to be silent re switches.
phf: it's because their own design, "maltron switches". sometimes it's an option on those "mechanical keyboard" sites, so i wouldn't be surprised if the switches are good
asciilifeform not fond of cherry switch
asciilifeform: they feel cheap, and they break.
asciilifeform: and when they do you geeeetttttt thiiiiis
asciilifeform: sadly they ( and taiwanese 'alps' clone ) are the ~only 'clickies' in new production afaik today.
asciilifeform: the '50 million cycles' thing is a bold lie.
mod6: <+phf> has builtin trackball even, in the right place << this would be handy. mine doesn't have this. having to take my hands off the board gets annoying.
asciilifeform: ( or possibly a half-truth -- perhaps it really does go 50m cycles before ~open circuit~ failure. but 'bounce' begins looong before )
phf: mod6: people have modded that advantage to have a trackball in the middle, with a variety of approaches. there's actually hollow space there
mod6: those maltron boards look nice. i didn't get one because it's nearly 2x as much as the kinesis.. and had no idea if i could even get used to the concave thing.
asciilifeform: 'Maltron keyboards are expensive by comparison and for many people represent a considerable investment. They are hand made from sheet materials which are formed and punched to make the shell or body of the keyboard. Cherry MX key switches are individually fitted by hand. The switch contacts are wired up into a scanning XY matrix by hand. In fact everything is done on an individual basis by hand. This does not result in a $5 product.
asciilifeform: But is does result in a product that is reliable not just to start with, but in ten or more years time.' << sounds great, but hey folx, why not make buckling springs like normal people!111
mod6: phf: ah no shit huh?
asciilifeform: i'd buy a several$k kbd if 0 plastic.
asciilifeform: (and honest f-keys.)
mod6: ah, ya, you wanted metal one right?
asciilifeform: stainless, ideally.
phf: i've at some point went through a mechanical keyboard site and ordered 6 different boards with all the available switches from different manufacturers. while they look "retro", e.g. they all universally felt cheap with light frame and unpleasant lateral travel
asciilifeform: aha, i found 100% of post-1980s kbds to feel ~same, all like this.
phf: yeah
asciilifeform: currently i use one of and it took eons to sand, deburr, paint, rf paint inside, ultrasonically clean the moving parts, reassembly takes ~day...
asciilifeform: ( you need carpenter's clamps )
asciilifeform: there's several kg of steel in'ere
asciilifeform: but keys -- still abs plastic.
phf: yeah, i got two, i'm yet to do anything with them. (and yes, mine are steel and correct version etc.)
asciilifeform: however it is worth noting that it accepts ibm 'm' keys, and so you can easily be rid of the martian terminal keys and replace with 'human'
asciilifeform: i like the key mechanisms -- unlike 'ibm m', no membrane, no rubber anythings, no rivets.
asciilifeform: spring buckles and conductive plastic 'foot' tips and moves just a little, changing the resonant freq of that row/column
phf: yeah, i think we had a conversation about putting piano forte into the firmware. if you type it fff it'll automatically uppercase and add random !!! etc.
asciilifeform: aha, theoretically quite possible.
asciilifeform: i'd still like to resurrect the su-era gold standard, the magnetic reed switch kbd.
asciilifeform: they were... eternal
phf: my setup is so "modern" that i can't really worry about permanence
asciilifeform: there of course is the -- quite valid -- mircea_popescu school of thought, 'furniture oughta be standard and expendable'
phf: i have to say though, from ergonomic perspective i've realized a while ago that none of this particularly matters. it's all significantly offset by fitness regime or lack of
asciilifeform: but given what % of time i spend in front of screen and touching kbd, the idea of using lusertronic rubbish has ~0 appeal
asciilifeform: phf: now this -- tru!
asciilifeform: and moreover, the mircea_popescutronic answer to 'rsi', is that one that i end up using: 'type less, fool'
phf: yah
asciilifeform: in continuation of 'the best car -- is to already be at the destination' line of thought, 'the best keyboard is to simply not need to hit many keys'
mircea_popescu: hmm, anyone wanna paypal 30bux for me ?
asciilifeform: << in somewhat vintage cargocultisms.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski might enjoy ^
asciilifeform: 'Among the store’s roughly five thousand volumes were eight different books called “Talmud,” several of which listed Rabbi Tokayer as the author and included pictures of him inside their front covers. One version included “A Personal Message from the Author,” in English, in which Tokayer expressed his belief that “the Korean people and the Jewish people have so much in common, and share so many similar values.” '
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
mircea_popescu: weird korean shit.
shinohai: !~later tell mod6 New makefiles test went smooth ... If you aren't head-banging over Ada I have question regarding Vim setup when you have time.
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: So the first 3 results from the Google search "Roxanne Gay hamplanet" do not include the word hamplanet. Google Has either learned OR CENSORED RESULTS AGAIN!!!
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2449.03, vol: 19229.41901269 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2403.893, vol: 7323.36006 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2402.0, vol: 33686.53303544 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2547.323739, vol: 14274.82870000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2436.806, vol: 9231.76895356 | Volume-weighted last average: 2441.57226253
lobbes: << in somewhat vintage cargocultisms. >> "Korean women want to know the secret. They found the secret in this book." << lol "You, too, can do 'it'!"
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 20:39 asciilifeform: << in somewhat vintage cargocultisms.
lobbes: One of the oldest self-help b00ks, still kickin' to this day
shinohai: Adding this smacktard to my "List of ppl that need to die"
mod6: hi shinohai, glad to hear that the testing went well.
mod6: what's your question re vim
lobbes: "Many folks expect to have some way of viewing and using emojis" heh
shinohai: If your sole contribution to computing is "adding fucking emojis" please die in a fire.
Framedragger: calling it: "serious linux desktop RCE discovered related to emojis" (memory mismanagement or related) (exact words in quote may differ)
Framedragger considers posting a bet re. this
mircea_popescu: it's indubitably there.
Framedragger: btw maersk (some related ports) is down due to new "ransomware" (orange website says it's the same nsa "eternalblue" windows vuln)
mircea_popescu: not like they were needed anyway!
Framedragger: :p what, the shipping company? ha
mircea_popescu: just chinese crap anyway
Framedragger: healthy perspective to have, i guess
mircea_popescu: apple could buy china!
mircea_popescu: netflix interprets maersk as damaged and just routes around teh censor ships!
mircea_popescu: i got a whole silo fulla these btw, if you need.
Framedragger: i mean, scriba was supposed to have an mp emulator chatbot, so i'll keep it in mind :)
Framedragger: !$talk about "no such thing as too big"
Framedragger: => "from which we surmise you never had sex"
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 23:18 lobbes: "Many folks expect to have some way of viewing and using emojis" heh
asciilifeform: in other, not wholly unrelated, lulz, '...out-of-bounds write in systemd-resolved in Ubuntu, which is possible to trigger with a specially crafted TCP payload. ... Certain sizes passed to dns_packet_new can cause it to allocate a buffer that's too small. A page-aligned number - sizeof(DnsPacket) + sizeof(iphdr) + sizeof(udphdr) will do this... A malicious DNS server can exploit this by responding with a specially crafted TCP payload
asciilifeform: to trick systemd-resolved in to allocating a buffer that's too small, and subsequently write arbitrary data beyond the end of it.'
asciilifeform: ( 'CVE-2017-9445' )
asciilifeform: 'song of msdos'.
asciilifeform: '... И представил я: / Город наводнился вдруг разумными людьми: / Вышли все под DOS,...'
asciilifeform: by the author of, e.g., 'the random number merchant'
sina: mornin tmsr
sina: << my, I seem to have trouble phrasing my questions correctly :(
a111: Logged on 2017-06-27 13:08 mircea_popescu: << there's no intention that there would be plaintext anything, wtf.
sina: mircea_popescu: patience appreciated while I attempt to rephrase question.
sina: in current model, operator can write a message and claim it is from anyone and "publish" it to their own message store. when peers connect, the messages since last seen are delivered, each encrypted with a peer-pair unique RSA key. so as the message "progresses" between peers it gets encrypted, then decrypted and stored in each peers message store in plaintext
sina: what I'm asking is, does that behaviour match the intent? OR
sina: should the operator be encrypting the message for the final recipient and then publishing that ciphertext?
sina: OR, both?
sina: asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: sina: how do the 2 models differ ?
asciilifeform: sina: and what means 'final recipient' ?
Framedragger: intermediary peers won't be able to decrypt message in the latter model, asciilifeform
sina: Framedragger: thanks, exactly what I meant
asciilifeform: Framedragger: in mircea_popescu's gossipd algo, there are 2 types of messages, ordinary and private. the latter behave as described above
asciilifeform: the former - as the 'stored, relayed'.
sina: aha!
Framedragger recalls mircea_popescu's archaic use of "for" in context of gossipd
sina: so the answer is "the program should allow for both behaviours"
sina: ?
asciilifeform: sina: if you're asking re mircea_popescu's algo -- then yes
asciilifeform: i thought this was pretty clear from the article.
sina: asciilifeform: yesterday you mentioned 2 articles, but I had only seen one, if you recall URL can you link second one?
Framedragger: in fact i'd imagine that gossipd should ideally allow for arbitrary end to end encryption, would be up to operator?
asciilifeform: Framedragger: all comms b/w any pair of nodes, properly rsa'd
asciilifeform: no exceptions
Framedragger got confused from article, too (hence not opining re gossipd currently)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: sure, but (plz don't vomit from use of keyword) there should be a way to onion-rsa them, too (A encrypts to C's key, then encrypts to B's key and tells B to relay to C which is currently offline, or w/e)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you get this 'for free' from the normal relay mechanism
asciilifeform: if you think about it.
Framedragger: god it's like quoting talmud at this point :D (i mean the long comments etc)
Framedragger: right, eternal rsa gen process, rsa'd automatically, etc
sina: asciilifeform: can you clarify, *all* comms? when I was implementing my first pass at encrypting comms yest, I found that at least the very first message when a peer connects as a client would be plaintext, i.e. "hi I'm A", otherwise the "server" would need to enumerate all its keys to find if it knows the peer?
asciilifeform: sina: it enumerates.
sina: ahh
asciilifeform: and in fact goes through ALL OF THEM, to avoid leaking timing.
sina: then is there a need for a challenge at all?
asciilifeform: ( this is not in mircea_popescu's article but is imho elementary. )
Framedragger: in fact that's a question i asked in comments, sina
Framedragger: answer is as asciilifeform said
Framedragger: just fyi
Framedragger: i even raised a (nonsensical) "but-t-t time complexiti!" concern re this
Framedragger: afaict gossipd model assumes that some rsa keys had been exchanged out-of-band. traditional challenge-response has been constantly critiqued by asciilifeform via "it's a DoS vector" argument (sorry if too curt, am in bed)
Framedragger: (which makes sense, hence lighthoused proposal)
asciilifeform: in other mircea_popescuine treats, .
asciilifeform: and speaking of which i'ma bbl.
sina: ok thanks all
sina: this will change my design a little bit
sina: asciilifeform: yest you said no sessions in gossipd, yet clearly describes a session based proto
Framedragger: sina: to clarify (hopefully lol), that ^ is for all intents and purposes outdated. asciilifeform did say "original mp algo". that said, i'll agree if you say "you guys have a documentation problem omg"
Framedragger: (but then, the newer article clearly states "This is an up-to-date draft specification for gossipd", so i'm not too sure about that, either)
Framedragger: sina: fwiw (he can speak for himself but to save you time), asciilifeform does not like sessions [ever|anymore], and considers them ugly beasts which won't have a place in his gossipd bed
sina: appreciated Framedragger
Framedragger: (i know it's a hella lot of comments under the newer article but iirc his "DoS magnet!!" points are addressed there)
sina: I guess I'll wait for some clarification from mircea_popescu ? challenge/response is a session based concept even ignoring the older post
Framedragger: did you read the part about lighthouse based challenge, though?
sina: "To craft a valid packet, a sender must collect a single auth string from the receiving node's lighthouse (via whatever means, can be a shortwave tuner), craft auth with it as described by Mircea Popescu earlier, encipher to receiver's RSA pubkey, and send." ?
sina: that one?
Framedragger: tl;dr asciilifeform described a way for peer A to provide a challenge-response to peer B in a way which would not require any communication from B, hence not creating a DoS vector
Framedragger: yeah, though note that the lighthouse may for all intents be node C there
sina: well, the next line is literally "This variant is not, incidentally, intrinsically incompatible with Mircea Popescu's - conceivably he might choose to hand out auth challenges to all-comers, while I operate lighthouse; while retaining the other basic mechanics."
Framedragger: hmm, right
Framedragger: note the important aspect which lighthouse introduces: constant stream of auth strings, "in all directions"
Framedragger: "in all directions" depends on medium. in radio, it's clear; in packet switched networks, could be a list of broadcast addresses to send auth strings to (constantly), etc
Framedragger: sorry if repeating what you already know
Framedragger: the point is that auth strings are sent regardless of whether the connecting peer (A) wants them
Framedragger: so there's no way to DoS peer B with "hi plox to send me an auth string, i'm totally legit non sybil node"
Framedragger: ("well ok, let me generate this one just for you, and this for just for you", vs. "i'll generate this many auth strings per time unit, and distribute them to this set of destinations (or "shit them out via radio"))
Framedragger: so in that sense it's not your traditional challenge-response. again, sorry if repeating
sina: no apologies necessary
sina: Framedragger: can you bear with me for a few questions or were you going to bbl?
Framedragger: i may fall asleep but shoot
sina: so we have a lighthouse thingo broadcasting some random bytes as challenge strings in plaintext
sina: and nodes are receiving and storing those challenge strings
sina: if I'm operator of peer A and want to send a message to peer B, what do I do? pick one of my stored challenge strings, sign it, send it along with my message?
Framedragger: yes i think so, and note that there is a time window there re. how recent challenge string has to be, to avoid replay. i.e., those strings expire. and yes that's how you send a msg to B iirc
Framedragger: A and B may then decide to enter some different "state" but the general gossipd design is stateless, i.e. there is no session
sina: probably a dumb question
Framedragger: mircea_popescu had concerns re. "signed", but iirc the concept of "station key" (vs. "mega important owner key") helped there. not sure if entirely resolved, tho
sina: but why can't A just sign any random bytes? why does it need to come from the lighthouse?
Framedragger: (btw the challenge strings may be in something else than plaintext, all depends on lighthouse and medium)
Framedragger: i believe this relates to asciilifeform's "traditional challenge-response creates DoS vector". so with a lighthouse auth string, one more important point is that a particular auth string cannot be reused.
sina: oh nevermind, obviously if you sign any random bytes it can be replayed
sina: yeah
Framedragger: yeah, so this avoid replay but also sets a limit to how much DoS exposure you have (one of the limits, at least)
Framedragger: avoids*
Framedragger: well i guess it's the same thing, kinda
sina: another probably dumb question
sina: why not just sign the current UTC timestamp
sina: you can't replay timestamps outside of a certain window +/- 0.5s or something?
Framedragger: because you can predict the future of such a lighthouse, hence craft any number of packets in advance
Framedragger: let me recall why that is super important lol; but the unpredictability of the auth strings coming from lighthouse is important
Framedragger is "recall vs. just think about it" mode
sina: Framedragger: really appreciate your patience, I get the feeling asciilifeform would be shouting at me again by now
Framedragger: nah folks are just busy
Framedragger: i guess he'd say "read the article [implying read the comments, too]"
sina: I'm not sure I understand how you can craft packets in advance if they need to be signed
Framedragger: hold on, you're right
Framedragger reading how asciilifeform described the packets, if at all, because forgot
sina: also I can't see how the model can be *completely* stateless, there will always be some kind of minimal session which is "hi, I'm A" followed by a response tailored to A
sina: unless all responses are identical for all peers, which would make them plaintext
mircea_popescu: well now ima have to read this whole thang
Framedragger: sina: right, re future, i didn't make sense there
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 01:19 sina: in current model, operator can write a message and claim it is from anyone and "publish" it to their own message store. when peers connect, the messages since last seen are delivered, each encrypted with a peer-pair unique RSA key. so as the message "progresses" between peers it gets encrypted, then decrypted and stored in each peers message store in plaintext
mircea_popescu: << yes, server looks through its keys.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 01:28 sina: asciilifeform: can you clarify, *all* comms? when I was implementing my first pass at encrypting comms yest, I found that at least the very first message when a peer connects as a client would be plaintext, i.e. "hi I'm A", otherwise the "server" would need to enumerate all its keys to find if it knows the peer?
mircea_popescu: << the problem with the concept of a "session" is that it attempts to link machine state to world state. this is a very tenuous proposition, and the fundamental reason why sessionificatyion of (the correctly designed) stateless http protocol failed for 30 years straight and will continue to fail forever.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 01:45 Framedragger: sina: fwiw (he can speak for himself but to save you time), asciilifeform does not like sessions [ever|anymore], and considers them ugly beasts which won't have a place in his gossipd bed
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i fucking can't reckon right now why output of lighthouse has to be unpredictable. damn it :D *if* all packets are signed with peer keys that receiving peer already has, timestamp with defined validity window would avoid replay... (
mircea_popescu: you know, the lighthouse idea, while an idea, didn't actually get included.
mircea_popescu: prolly should separate the re-discussing of that from the guy trying to comprehend the spec
Framedragger: situation is different if the point is for peer A to newly introduce self to B. then (sina) "unpredictable lighthouse" is important because it sets a limit to how many auth strings can be used.
mircea_popescu: no peers introduce themselves though. at all.
Framedragger: (in fact maybe that's an important point as well: lighthouse shits at a fixed rate; there is a discrete amount of auth strings which can be used. i guess this is obvious, i'm slow)
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: right
mircea_popescu: the only way for A and B to be introduced, outside of the grandfatherly, A fucks B and they exchange bits of paper, is C tells A about B and B about A.
mircea_popescu: there's no peer discovery as a gossipd function ; at all times it knows already all the peers it will ever know. in lawyer speak this is called "never ask a question you don't know the answer to."
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah lighthouse discussion does complicate matters, the fact of the matter is, it's the only current (written) alternative to DoS-prone traditional challenge-response (A asks B to plz send challenge, A then response to B with that challenge), within gossipd universe
Framedragger: also lighthouse concept didn't get properly included in spec because it's probably not yet finished, ha
mircea_popescu: possibly.
Framedragger: "Re 119 : You'll have to properly spec this if you want it." (you said it!)
sina: mircea_popescu: while I appreciate the validty of issues about sessions, challenge/response dictates there must be something akin to a session, even if that isn't the most precisely fitting term
mircea_popescu: sina what challenge response ?
mircea_popescu: let's go through the process in detail.
sina: pls
mircea_popescu: at t0, A encrypts plaintext P to key B1.
mircea_popescu: at t1, A remits P.B1 to B.
mircea_popescu: at t2, B is free to decrypt or not decrypt P.B1. it is supposed to make this decision on the basis of B1 and whatever other data it uses to make such a decision.
mircea_popescu: at t3, providing B has opted to decrypt P.B1, it is in possession of P. if P is a standard message, it contains a reference allowing it to respond.
mircea_popescu: if the operator of B opts to respond, at t4 A will receive a P'.Ai
asciilifeform: Framedragger: recall, mircea_popescu and asciilifeform never came to a 'hey we have this 1 algo', so all q re 'gossipd' presume, imho, mircea_popescu's algo, which was actually called so
mircea_popescu: if the operator of B opts to relay, at t5 various nodes will receive a P.?j
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly. nmot that i'm against further exploring the lighthouse thing, but gotta be separate item for nao.
mircea_popescu: sina so where's a session in there ?
asciilifeform: and it was different from asciilifeform's, and did not include 'lighthouses', luby transform, a few elses
sina: "a reference allowing it to respond." << is that not a session concept?
mircea_popescu: sina i imagine it's a keyid of some kind. that makes a session ?
sina: mircea_popescu: I assume A generated that reference, and it is storing it until B has responded?
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ah, then i confused things by way of saying that "challenge-response needs to be ditched in gossipd model". hmm. i did think that the two items are not conceptually separable anymore
mircea_popescu: sina all keys are stored forever.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: gotta distinguish mircea_popescu's algo from the MB or so of asciilifeform's commentz re same
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: well you did say "whenever operator feels like it, keys get nuked." (i guess that's not the same, tho)
sina: mircea_popescu: ok that makes sense, you should consider updating the blogpost :P
mircea_popescu: Framedragger that is what "forever" means to machines.
sina: because the blogpost has a challenge/response thingo
mircea_popescu: link me ?
sina: III. Gossipd will receive inbound connectionsvii from identified clientsviii and on the basis of that identification produce an encrypted challenge string, which constitutes its response. If the other party responds with the proper challenge string, the connection is established ; otherwise it is dropped.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform, some yrs before being introduced to mircea_popescu, wrote an (unpublished) algo, 'kapelle', that resembled mircea_popescu's gossipd. hence 'strong feelingz'
mircea_popescu: sina yeah that's amply misleading.
sina: haha
sina: this clarification is much appreciated, I do think I can rework what I've got to fit the above model
mircea_popescu: the idea was to report to the operator, "We have link with x". but conceptually, sessions as a fundamental building block of comms, are not used.
asciilifeform: (had slightly different domain: botnet orbital control...)
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between my client showing alf as "online" and my client being built on the concept of sessions.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i never got to comandeer one from irc channel, am sad
asciilifeform: Framedragger: it 'gets old' quickly
sina: alright
sina: thankyall
sina: time for some food and stuffs, I will spend time later trying to implement this
asciilifeform: think of 'we have link' as if with, e.g, satellite
Framedragger: i'm in fact curious why in your model lighthouse has to be unpredictable, asciilifeform. maybe it's something very obvious
asciilifeform: i.e. when was last time of contact
sina: oh yeah, while we have you alf, can you answer above? why is lighthouse necessary if A can just sign current timestamp and B only accept timestamps within a small variance window?
asciilifeform: Framedragger: because not signing but decrypting
sina: o
sina: wait
asciilifeform: ( why does deedbot cookie gotta be random! )
Framedragger: yeah this is too densely compressed
sina: asciilifeform: if the challenges are being broadcast by the lighthouse in the clear, and all the peers are storing N of them, can't evilguy X just encrypt all of them?
sina: and send them at will?
Framedragger: i assumed that packets were signed by A
sina: yeah
asciilifeform: whereas in 'sign lighthouse' model, also gotta be unpredictable, but to prevent replay
asciilifeform: without having to store anything
sina: you can prevent replay by signing a timestamp and accepting only "current" timestamp within a window of +/- 0.X seconds?
asciilifeform: i.e. a signed(S) could not have practically come into existence before you broadcast S, if the latter is a long rng turd
asciilifeform: sina: didja read the clocks thread ?
sina: obvously not
asciilifeform: we don't ntp
sina: fair
asciilifeform: and disbelieve in the possibility of accurate synced clocks.
sina: tmsr is a weird place
asciilifeform: ( sans ntp and similar imperial shenanigans )
asciilifeform: ntp requires a hitler.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: but the main work by the receiving peer is in checking the signature of the other peer anyway (besides decrypting the message itself), no?
Framedragger: question is about unpredictability anyway
Framedragger: so more general
sina: <+asciilifeform> Framedragger: because not signing but decrypting << I am not sure I understand this. Why is it decrypting? Considering everyone has the plaintext from broadcasts
Framedragger: and if the main work is in checking signature, how does a "could not have practically come into existence before you broadcast S" help with regards to DoS?
asciilifeform: sina: say i take random string R and encrypt to pubkeys p1, p2,...,pN
Framedragger: if incoming message is *not signed*, then i understand - it sets a fixed horizon in terms of how much you can spam.
sina: anyway, I guess this is a seperate question for smarter people, I will just stick to trying to update my thingo to match mircea_popescu description above
sina: must food
asciilifeform: sina: to get a window to speak to me, you come back with the plaintext of a recent R. proving that you are one of p1,...pN.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ah, damn. is the point to prove to B that A holds A's key at time t? i feel dumb
Framedragger: lol, umm, "duh", thanks for bearing
asciilifeform: dun worry Framedragger , it does take some actual sweat, to puzzle out
asciilifeform: but asciilifeform is happy to give a hand.
Framedragger: sina: point was to prove continued identity of A, continued ownership of A's private key, so to speak.
Framedragger appreciates
Framedragger and goes to sleep
asciilifeform: ('come back with the plaintext' of course means that you, e.g,, gimme a hash H(R + salt), or the like, not literally exposing it for world!)
asciilifeform: goodnight Framedragger
asciilifeform: btw note that 'decrypt mode lighthouse' is deedbot-like, the answerer proves that he holds one of p1,...,pN keys. rather than one in particular.
asciilifeform: without distributing signed material.
asciilifeform: this btw is also a major feature of mircea_popescu's (non-lighthousetronic) algo, and imho important
mircea_popescu: the problem with it, once ammended for the sign issue, was not exactly technical, more in terms of how expensiuve it is
mircea_popescu: not "it won't work" but rather "will it be worth working"
asciilifeform: it can be as expensive ( broadcast to galaxy! ) or cheap ( request a turd in web form, which actually reduces to approx. mircea_popescu's original..! ) as desired.
asciilifeform: smoothly.
mircea_popescu: conceivably.
asciilifeform: i imagine most stations would do something in between.
asciilifeform: ( homework: calculate packet shitting rate necessary to hit every ipv4 at least weekly )
mircea_popescu: << because this imports GPS into gossipd, or most of gossipd history will not contain GPS or anything like it.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 02:04 sina: you can't replay timestamps outside of a certain window +/- 0.5s or something?
sina: the weather is shit so I am just going to order a pizza and sit in the dark
sina: :D
sina: oh yeah. I'm actually on holidays from work this week, that is why I'm around hassling y'all at all hours
mircea_popescu: hey, i like it.
asciilifeform: sina: think also through the implications of 'no clock'. suddenly, chronological ordering is nontrivial.
sina: asciilifeform: chronological ordering of messages?
asciilifeform: ('timestamp' has no factual meaning outside of hardware on your desk. and even there - 'fuzzy')
asciilifeform: sina: aha, what-happened-before-whatelse
sina: yeah, per the spec, peers are only storing messages with local timestamp they received them
mircea_popescu: yes, witness-time
sina: ordering/conflict resolution is left up to the operator
mircea_popescu: einstein'd be proud
asciilifeform: sina: point being, you cannot rely on timestamps of any form to distinguish old packets from new and filter replays
mircea_popescu: notice how it's not even POSSIBLE for the "same" message to be delivered via gossipd. for purely quantic reasons.
asciilifeform: sina: i recommend to also review logs re 'protocolic vs promisetronic' concept
asciilifeform: then when i say 'timestamps not produced by yourself are promisetronic' it will immediately click in your brain.
mircea_popescu: this is the root of the divergence so far, so not a bad reference. encountering a problem, sina tends to seek the "correct" dependency to bake in.
sina addes to notes
mircea_popescu: as a matter of habit.
mircea_popescu: this is very much not what tmsr ever does.
sina: s/correct/desired/ pls
mircea_popescu: ideal ? community-approved ? you name it.
sina: yeah
sina: is it bad?
mircea_popescu: it's different.
mircea_popescu: it can work, depending, but it doesn't work by itself, it has to be a very strictly examioned thing.
asciilifeform: there was an old sf tale, maybe 1940s, about a d00d in the Evil Future who is sentenced to death , but 'in house arrest', is put in a seemingly normal flat where common household objects are boobytrapped
sina: I mean I *can* go off and do my own thing, but then I am making a sinathing not a tmsrthing
asciilifeform: with proviso that if he lives for a week, he gets reprieved
asciilifeform: this is roughly analogous situation to the daily life of tmsr software folx
sina: does he in an explosion of shit as he sits on the toilet?
mircea_popescu: sina the problem with the non-tmsr things is that they are undependable. in the complete sense of that term : temporally, functionally, you name it.
asciilifeform: sina: dies when 'reprieved' and turns door knob to leave, forgetting all caution: poisoned
sina: the future is not all bad. I order pizza and can see its current progress in the store and GPS tells me its location en route
asciilifeform: ( spoiler!!!1 )
sina: asciilifeform: haha
mircea_popescu: sina do you see how this is an extra cost, not an added benefit ?
mircea_popescu: my pizza just takes the my saying "yo, make pizza!"
sina: mircea_popescu: my perspective is that I am just trying to implement what appears to be an interesting spec. for the reason of being interested in implementing that spec. so when I ask for tmsrthing clarification, it is just in terms of spec, not in terms of "making a thing" ...if that makes sense
sina: Mircea Popescu: Pizza Whisperer
mircea_popescu: but, and here's the beauty, for the same money today had salmon.
sina: the pizza doesn't even exist, you just say "yo, make pizza" and flour assembles itself into dough, tomatos become paste, basil grinds itself
mircea_popescu: slavegirls!
sina: we aren't all rich Romanians with slavegirls ok
mircea_popescu: aite, watch teh gps like it means something then!!!
sina: haha
mircea_popescu: mwahahahaha
mircea_popescu: computer pseudoscience may be the only engineering discipline in which the ancient solutions actually are better.
sina: token ring?
mircea_popescu: slavegirl to run kitchen >>> gps to watch kitchen being run in
mircea_popescu: see, because if she is too slow, i don't just SAY she's too slow. she fixes it. and if she dun fix it fast enough i got whips to help along. what's the gps do ? it doesn't afford you any agency towards the pizzeria. yet you're wartching. so what do you do ? you turn inward, educate ~yourself~.
sina: CRT monitors!
mircea_popescu: stupid fucking tool.
mircea_popescu: i don't want to grind myself by the measure of some 9.60 an hour mexicans in a kitchen somewhere.
sina: mircea_popescu: this is AU, no Mexicans, mostly SE Asians
mircea_popescu: do you know how many soviets yelled at the television set ?
asciilifeform: americans used to shoot at cinema screens
asciilifeform: in the early days
asciilifeform: like birds, attacking reflection in window
mircea_popescu: i've seen some awesome bird-bird rape since i've been here btw. you have NO FDUCKING IDEA what birds do.
asciilifeform: 'that ain't another pigeon, idiot , it's yerself'
sina: speaking of birds, I read this yest:
asciilifeform: if rat can learn to smoke.. why not bird.
sina: re this is one funny fact I learned today!
a111: Logged on 2017-06-28 00:18 Framedragger: btw maersk (some related ports) is down due to new "ransomware" (orange website says it's the same nsa "eternalblue" windows vuln)
sina: "If you sign malware with a fake self-signed Microsoft certificate, several major AV's on VirusTotal will ignore it"
sina: following affected: @kaspersky @arcabit @Malwarebytes @TrendMicro @Webroot @zonealarm
mircea_popescu: grep "begin signed" blabla
sina: majority of infections have been in Ukraine, there are screenshots of lots of Ukranian stuff (grocery store terminals, train stations, etc)
sina: whoever wrote it didn't suck like WannaCry authors and implemented lateral movement
sina: so it can go inside the "crunchy on outside, soft inside" networks
sina: what is nb?
mircea_popescu: not bad, contraction
sina: ah thx
sina: also, unrelated is this:
sina: ikea made awesome solar concentrator for 5 fiat units
mircea_popescu: were you here for the "solar power" hax / lulz ?
sina: don't think so
mircea_popescu: lemme fish it out i guess
sina: OH YEAH, going back to the ransomware that hit Maersk
sina: Chernobyl is running on manual monitoring after their systems got hit!
mircea_popescu: see also that day in logs, lulz were had
sina: ha that is interesting, but the ikea thing is just a $5 polished metal bowl that has been setting stuff in peoples houses on fire
sina: will check logs for more lel
mircea_popescu: sounds liek a chiuldhood dream
sina: live your dreams mircea_popescu! set all that stuff on fire :P
mircea_popescu: i do make a fire now and again.
mircea_popescu: got a whole bbq terrace thing by teh pool.
sina: mmmm bbq I love me some bbq pork
mircea_popescu: well, no gps here so can't help you
sina: makes sense, you only just made it to fire, still another 7000 years before GPS :D :P
sina: ok for real time to vegetate now, enjoy the day all, I will spend some time on rejigging gossipdthing later and probably be back with more dumb questions at that point
PeterL: Good evening Trilema
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