Results 1 ... 250 found in all logged channels for 'vtron' | →
(pest) bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-10-05 11:08:45 asciilifeform[jonsykkel|billymg]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-10-05#1030735 << shinohai had earlier dusted off a cl vtron by esthlos. see his www.
(pest) asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-10-05#1030735 << shinohai had earlier dusted off a cl vtron by esthlos. see his www.
(pest) asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-31#1030186 << asciilifeform (& other folx) had links to it, when mentioning wot folx in vtronic context.
(pest) asciilifeform: ( signpost was obv there & saw how & why we have vtron )
(pest) bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-07-02 21:38:41 asciilifeform[4]: recall that asciilifeform originally advocated hand-sewn equivalent of this process before wrote vtron
(pest) asciilifeform: sadly pest proto offers no way for 2 d00dz to duke it out and then drink & 'be brothers', eh. ( asciilifeform not 100% understands the conflict , but aint his biz , by all indications it aint about fine points of vtronics )
(pest) asciilifeform: generally if you've already verified n patches, and nao you grabbed n+1st, it aint particularly more painful than using actual vtron
(pest) asciilifeform: recall that asciilifeform originally advocated hand-sewn equivalent of this process before wrote vtron
(pest) asciilifeform: it realy oughta be possible to bootstrap a readable vtron ( and w/out in the process having to bootstrap an entire linux, conceivably )
(pest) asciilifeform: ( in asciilifeform's cosmography, 'scripting lang' is 1 where a typical proggy runs '1 shot' -- e.g. vtron -- and terminates. and so gc-less operation is potentially The Right Thing : simpler runtime, easily-predicted time, etc )
(pest) asciilifeform: what asciilifeform sees . ( which vtron was signpost using ? )
(pest) asciilifeform: (maybe replace the rubbish one in vtron... )
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: (a fundamental idea behind vtron is that no command to it modifies the input files; tho 'press' generates a new dir which corresponds deterministically to the chosen patch/seals inputs)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: d4: 'commit' term has no meaning in classical vtronics ftr.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: (at least, in asciilifeform's original vtron; much later, folx baked a new one w/ compat. output but such that doesn't choke on e.g. '---' present in inputs & similar headaches cured )
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: so yes, d4 , 'could replace pgp signatures in vtron' if you want. but ftr is suicidally stupid idea. asciilifeform is powerless to prevent some idjit, somewhere, bent on doing it, from doing it. but will not knowingly touch anything said idjit has touched, if can avoid it, nor encourage others to do so, nor l1 with anyone he finds doing either of the above, etc.
(pest) asciilifeform: observe that crapola like svg is extremely unfriendly from vtronic pov
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: phf: laff if you like, but is essentially valid q. and eternal headache for folx who not invented vtronics yet.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: the morons who, when shown vtronics, react w/ e.g. 'arduous crackpottery' -- let'em enjoy the rm -rf or backconnect shell 'libraries', wainot
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-22 11:06:23 asciilifeform: meanwhile will link to shinohai's alt-vtron.
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-22 11:06:23 asciilifeform: meanwhile will link to shinohai's alt-vtron.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: meanwhile will link to shinohai's alt-vtron.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: the only reason wai e.g. this proggy, or asciilifeform's vtron, or logotron, etc. in py, is that no ecologically clean alternative avail.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: could refer to the basic package (vtron, booter, etc) as 'the distro' but sure
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: asciilifeform's orig. vtron did not ( still does not ) 'gracefully' handle the last 2 classes.
(asciilifeform) signpost: using v.sh as the vtron, since it works fine atop busybox's shell
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: imho no win from baking binturd support into vtron directly
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: iirc was a python skin on gpg a la asciilifeform's vtron
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-22 15:22:43 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087104 << determined to first fart out vtronic linux, then get to this.
(asciilifeform) signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087104 << determined to first fart out vtronic linux, then get to this.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: 100% willing to collaborate with human beings, rather than fungi, and these asciilifeform defines principally by a willingness to uphold the cause of the human against the fungal; and not the least important aspect of this is vtronic publication.
(pest) asciilifeform: btw fwiw 'litmus' worx, in principle if you have a gnat, dun need ye olde gpg for vtronics (for read-only vtronics, that is)
(pest) asciilifeform: aaha, abolishing metadata liquishit was anuther explicit aim of vtronics
(pest) asciilifeform many times historically contemplated replacements for trad. diff that would e.g. not spew entire line if you changed 1 char. but it would subtract from human-readability, which is an explicit goal of vtronics.
(pest) bitbot: Logged on 2022-01-27 14:50:49 asciilifeform: ( yes unix patch permits noop hunks, but traditional vtron dun permit identical 'in' and 'out' hashes, because such a pair cannot be placed in order by the tree walker, it could fit in >1 spot)
(pest) bitbot: Logged on 2022-01-27 14:48:16 asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-01-27#1003204 << 2 -- yes; 3 -- asciilifeform likes that vpatches can be pressed 'by hand' if req'd (say, on a n00b's box where no vtron, or as field expedient)
(pest) asciilifeform: ( yes unix patch permits noop hunks, but traditional vtron dun permit identical 'in' and 'out' hashes, because such a pair cannot be placed in order by the tree walker, it could fit in >1 spot)
(pest) asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-01-27#1003204 << 2 -- yes; 3 -- asciilifeform likes that vpatches can be pressed 'by hand' if req'd (say, on a n00b's box where no vtron, or as field expedient)
(pest) asciilifeform: vtronic sig verification obv. could be parallelized; errything else is inherently sequential tho
(pest) billymg: awt: ah, cool. ok i'll try out 9983 then, though it won't be right away since i'm away from my vtron box
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-10#1064703 << imho this remains the best intro written to date. (current-day vtrons use keccak hash in place of sha512 but otherwise algo has not changed substantially)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: as with e.g. vtrons -- the moar the merrier
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: imho vtron in fact supplies most of the necessary abstraction. hyperlink can consist of 1) hash 2) offset 3) length .
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: wrote, among many other things, the best vtronics guide to date.
(asciilifeform) billymg: afaik same group happy to use keybase, protonmail, etc., sure, but imo they're the target demographic for vtrons and pestrc networks
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 22:29:41 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057520 << how'bout marketing also for vtron and FG, lol
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-09 13:41:05 asciilifeform: asciilifeform has two uses for ffa -- general-purpose sign/verify suitable for use w/ generalized vtron ; and for the ecdsa numerics in ada trb replacement.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: for thinking folx, the correct model is imho -- get the foundations right, then combine -- e.g. with pgp, basic vtron is possible; with ffa, generalized vtron, ab initio trb, etc possible
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: there aint 'world' using e.g. vtron, either. it doesn't make it stop working somehow.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: asciilifeform has two uses for ffa -- general-purpose sign/verify suitable for use w/ generalized vtron ; and for the ecdsa numerics in ada trb replacement.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: cgra: also would like to have a replacement for 'litmus' (gpg compatibility program, for use with e.g. vtron) that doesn't rely on bash kludge.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: relatedly, imho a sane scripting lang oughta be able to 'include' coad vtronically.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform recalls the wankage from '20 w/ mp et al, 'bastard planted us on python! let's rewrite vtron, logger, ..., in sh...'
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-04 12:36:06 billymg: signpost: overall really cool, and i'm happy now that i finally have a vtron on this box
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-04 12:19:19 billymg: so now i have a working vtron on the host box
(asciilifeform) billymg: signpost: overall really cool, and i'm happy now that i finally have a vtron on this box
(asciilifeform) billymg: so now i have a working vtron on the host box
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: signpost: seems like oughta be generalizable into vtron
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: is what vtronics are for.
(asciilifeform) jonsykkel: indeed, unacceptabl. should have assumed vtronularity was in play
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-27 14:55:03 asciilifeform: ftr the properly generalized item vtron is a shadow of, looks like this, rather than like 'git' etc abortions.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: i.e. unification of vtron, pgp, wottron, 'rsync', so to speak.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: ftr the properly generalized item vtron is a shadow of, looks like this, rather than like 'git' etc abortions.
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-26 10:46:11 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: i'm using phf's patched version of my own original vtron.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform ftr still using his original vtron from 2015 + phf's patches and intends to continue indefinitely (tho eventually would like to write depythonized replacement and w/ peh in place of gpgism)
(asciilifeform) dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-27 14:30:37 asciilifeform: shinohai: didja read this megalith? care to summarize the interesting differences vs. traditional vtron ?
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: didja read this megalith? care to summarize the interesting differences vs. traditional vtron ?
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: iirc mp himself ordered an 'embrace & extinguish' format-breaking vtron yr+ ago. wainot, what's it to asciilifeform .
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform continuing in keccak lulz, asciilifeform surveyed dozen or so published impls. of the algo, incl. e.g. this www-based item (specifically keccak, rather than sha3) and found that they agree w/ one another, but none with the diana kludge used in current vtron.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: ^ sensationalist, imho, title, but basic observation is troo -- if you actually found how to reach one of the given magic states, then you have fucked the algo (at least for arbitrary-length inputs, e.g. vtronics)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: (phunphakt, asciilifeform used similar algo in the context of vtron, for ringing alarm if cyclic patch sequence is found)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i wrote the original vtron; and still use phf's updated (for keccakism) version of it
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: whaack: again, these press on my (properly kv) py vtron.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: whaack: which vtron? and can post outputs plz?
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: dpb: i've considered posting static binaries for keccak-vtron, etc. but historically loathed to do this.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: dpb: for the vtron, aha. try shinohai's recipe, afaik is the quickest way. i will be back later tonight and answer q's if you get stuck.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: even in 'good old days' when 20+ folx were using vtrons daily, at no pt did anyone say 'i wish machine would resolve wot ordering for me mechanically, i'm tired of sorting by hand'
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: persistent identity -- specifically vtronics -- is the only potential mouse poison known. and the very prospect of such a thing catching on -- terrifies'em.
(asciilifeform) shinohai: Kinda makes me wonder if there are peeps not using vtron to press, and instead just downloading vpatches and manually patching.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform will have to mirror the vtronics intro somewhere.
(alethepedia) asciilifeform: adlai: vtronics worx entirely equally well for ~avoiding the introduction of complexity~ as for reducing after the fact
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024042 << 1 nitpick : in my orig. vtron, the presence of an extraneous piece was a fatal eggog by default. and there was no prompting to select anything, item ran 100% w/out user interaction.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024035 << it does: proceeds through the toposorted patches. (note, however, the implicit bug in the orig. vtron, where 'sibling' nodes on the dep. graph -- if present anywhere -- would not necessarily be handled correctly )
(asciilifeform) snsabot: Logged on 2020-10-31 12:37:28 asciilifeform: trinque: imho this is still a useful line of thought, tho, for e.g. hypothetical vtronic p2p mirror system and any other large-scale apparatus which rides on wot.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: trinque: imho this is still a useful line of thought, tho, for e.g. hypothetical vtronic p2p mirror system and any other large-scale apparatus which rides on wot.
(asciilifeform) shinohai: maybe i am mistaken was it ben vulpes that made original lisp vtron?
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: i aint aware of him having written a vtron
(asciilifeform) shinohai: asciilifeform: i should like to unearth gl's vtron just for research purposes if you know location
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: adlai: i dun think laddel ever wrote a vtron (afaik)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: adlai: i have reason to think that you aint entirely deaf to reason : for instance, you wrote yer proggy in common lisp. so evidently capable of recognizing 'i did not bake this, but is worth building on.' would be curious to hear yer objection to vtronics .
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: would luvv to have proper (i.e. w/ his actual vtronics-to-html) mirror of item. but coad never published.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: hm this loox like an actual bug in specifically that vtron, rather than a gnupatchism
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: remind me, does esthlos-v use gnupatch callout (like traditional vtrons) or not ?
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: ( logical : it's a vtronic sig. )
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-08-17#1019644 << imho is Right Thing to bake vtronic linux. ( tho tbf 'they'll take' is a little pessimistic, afaik asciilifeform's fossilized gentoo repo is reasonably complete. and if it aint, it oughta be, folx plz send in tarballs.. )
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: e.g. at one time, if you wanted 'mod6_der_high_low_s' and 'malleus' together, had to either have the vtron support 'parallel' presses, or unify'em into 1 patch w/ both as antecedents (what ended up happening, 'makefiles')
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: also oughta note that asciilifeform's orig. vtron in fact had a bug where assumed there were no conflicting divergences in the patch flow
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: this is what vtron is largely for to begin with.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: otoh, e.g. ffa was built vtronically from birth.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: there is no networking code in my orig. vtron.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: newland0: correct. how to get patches from their disk to yours is entirely outside the scope of vtronics.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: adlai: if yer genuinely concerned re 'slip xyz into whateverbot', consider to use civilized vtronics instead of microshit phree-wwwsite kolhoz
(therealbitcoin) asciilifeform: afaik not all later vtrons required it tho
(therealbitcoin) asciilifeform: jfw: the 'one main dir' thing, i deliberately baked into 1st vtron, idea being that i oughta be able to visually identify what proj a vpatch belongs to
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: the operation of a vtron is fully transparent: for given set of pubkeys, patches, and signatures, will produce corresponding output. there is no hidden state.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: imho jfw's complaint re the old vtrons is valid -- it's annoying to need a working gnat to build vtron w/ which to press gnat etc.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: moar like mongol bow. seems like 90% of vtron users , to date, eventually baked own
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: i also have ftr nuffin against folx writing vtrons, even in mix of cobol & awk etc.
(asciilifeform) shinohai: Looks like that bvt guy is the new vtronist for their camp
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: i admit, i'm still a little disappointed that mp didn't stay in biz long enuff to have 'the new, improved' vtron baked
(ossasepia) jfw: billymg: cool. Not sure I like the silent failure behavior there, but I could see an argument for it: vtron's job is to pick the good from a sea of bad; that bad patches exist isn't interesting
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if yer interested in vtronics, this remains the imho best intro.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: PeterL: note that i do not normally use mod6's vtron ( i prefer mine, as patched by phf for keccak, have been using this since it was published )
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: this w/ mod6's vtron ?
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: both mine and mod6's vtrons used filename to identify human-readable owner of pubkey
(ossasepia) dorion: trinque, the plan right now is to use gales to make jwrd viable. slowly think about how gales can be terraformed to be Vtronic.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: imho an entirely usable implementation of this could weigh what orig. vtron did (~400ln) , not requires 'mars mission'...
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: consider something like 'rsync' but w/ proper vtronics.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: (i.e. vtronically-aware commonlisp, if i correctly understand)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: re esthlos's vtron -- given that cl has built-in bignum, you could prolly write mod-exp in coupla line
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: ( possib. that was in somebody else's cl vtron ? )
(asciilifeform) mod6: I've probably used it, figure, dozen times over the years to get things into people's Vtrons for press/building tests.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: this is how people bring up a vtron on a box w/out 'v'
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: curiousd0g: originally 'v' was a ~400ln. program, the vtrons folx use today are slightly more complicated. but basic knobs are same.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: ftr i dun have a problem w/ crackpots making broken/incompat. vtrons. it only becomes a problem if you want to work with'em. i'ma ignore, just as i ignore microshit's idea of crypto.
(asciilifeform) Apocalyptic: looks like I need a sha-Vtron to build it anyway
(asciilifeform) shinohai: esthlos-v is a++ vtron
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: i use (patched for keccakism) my orig. 'v.py' . the one linked from the articles, maintained by diana, orig. by mod6 also worx; shinohai is using a cl vtron by esthlos (rip)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: thinking nao, prolly oughta write a working vtron in naked sh, it is imho unseemly that all current vtrons require 'heavy' scripting langs
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: 'litmus' really for this ( in light of this ) but oughta fit any vtron.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: observe that litmus already behaves like vtron wants gpg to behave (i.e. dun need gymnastics to work around 'keychain' crapola)
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: still need to patch vtron to ride on this.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: it ~does~ make finally possible to run a vtron w/ 0 kockiana inside.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: for my part i've a draft of ffa-powered verifier for legacy gpg sigs (presently, only detached sigs, as used in vtrons) but also needs moar massage before posting ( and in particular, human-readable explanation of how sawed apart the format, the published docs were of ~0 help, had to vivisect the koch turd)
(asciilifeform) shinohai: First order of business is to publish post on esthlos-v before anything, since gonna be using that as my primary vtron moving forward.
(asciilifeform) snsabot: Logged on 2019-12-06 15:31:55 asciilifeform: actually started work on this in 2015, shortly after published orig. vtron -- but shelved, as phf , much handier wwwtronicist, put one up 1st. but phf never gave src.
(ossasepia) asciilifeform: diana_coman: i wrote a comment re your vtronics piece (sadly much belated, was in uruguay) , is in your spam queue atm
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform quite often operates vtron on machines w/out net pipe.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: loading things from net is a process entirely orthogonal to vtronics, and rly oughta be kept strictly separate and responsibility of user.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: my orig. vtron had 0 net-accessing knobs and this was deliberate.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: afaik esthlos's vtron is still closest thing available to a working one in cl, but defo not complete.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform actually started work on this in 2015, shortly after published orig. vtron -- but shelved, as phf , much handier wwwtronicist, put one up 1st. but phf never gave src.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: ideally, could link to any line in any vtronic proggy, and would be visible 'which patch', 'who signed' .
(ossasepia) spyked: diana_coman, I've tried pressing v.pl to the latest v_add_manifest.vpatch and something weird occurs. it seems that the vtron sees the patch as having no antecedents, so it doesn't apply all the previous patches. output: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=r8IV ; any ideas? I'm using the v_fixes_vpatch_sync.vpatch vtron.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: for that matter, is there even an actually working vtron ?
(ossasepia) jfw: Have read v.py, and made some tweaks like hash verification, but not written own vtron
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: rright, folx going about not only using vtron, but teaching entire university course on it, while ignoring the basic logical consistency of 'i signed, i am equally responsible' aint none of my concern, aite.
(trilema) ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-23 11:18:46 asciilifeform: fwiw a mp-wp extension that lets folx 'download these-here patches' imho may be useful. but really ought not to be ~in vtron~ .
(trilema) mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-23#1947816 << well, in practice vtron will come bundled with toolkit, what can do.
(trilema) asciilifeform: asciilifeform's orig. vtron did not make use of the net at all, runs a++ on boxes w/out nics, and imho this is Right Thing.
(trilema) asciilifeform: fwiw a mp-wp extension that lets folx 'download these-here patches' imho may be useful. but really ought not to be ~in vtron~ .
(trilema) spyked: when I first looked into it, I found it a little odd myself, since it expects a particular URL structure, e.g. mp-wp/v/{patches,seals}. but then I got used to it and even adjusted my v mirror to match. afaik v.pl is the only vtron that comes with this functionality
(ossasepia) asciilifeform: whaack: as bvt earlier reminded, my orig 'v' wasn't 'final word on subj', but rather proof of concept; there are corner cases where it stops and reqs manual intervention, but moar recent vtrons Do Right Thing .
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: you might find useful esthlos' report on V implementation in Lisp, as he discusses some details
(trilema) asciilifeform: vtron imho also oughta go in. and gpg 1.4.10 .
(ossasepia) BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: gnat, vpatch, and some vtron would be nice to have packaged for a future '10 minute' version.
(ossasepia) asciilifeform: vtron for instance.
(trilema) asciilifeform: hrm i prolly oughta patch vtron so that actually gives detailed barf when encounters an apparently 'martian' antecedent, and for ~all~ such encounters in full list.
(trilema) asciilifeform: tips for fyooyoor vtronicists : if press barfs that cannot find antecedent, use the 'o' (origin) knob on the unfound hash. will say if is even in tree anywhere
(ossasepia) asciilifeform: shrysr: when you 'press to a given patch', vtron starts with the roots in genesis, and tries to find a path , walking through the ---/+++ pairs, to the hashes found on the +++ side of the patch being 'pressed to' .
(ossasepia) asciilifeform: in the case of 'v', the vtron does it, when it produces the working set (i.e. list of patches and their authors) when you run it.
(ossasepia) asciilifeform: shrysr: the current vtron uses diana_coman's implementation of 'keccak' hash algo, rather than sha512, for this.
(trilema) asciilifeform: trinque: the vtron may be buggy tho. ( i haven't tried personally however )
(trilema) trinque: in other CLisms, esthlos' vtron works great. it's a shame he left.
(trilema) spyked: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-04#1933705 <-- imho his vtron is worth at least mirroring.
(asciilifeform) shinohai: Started own lisp vtron, decided to take a look at a few other implementations to see if any ideas I could cobble.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: shinohai: ever think about writing your own vtron ?
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: then nfi ( i admit, have not tried this vtron 'in anger' )
(asciilifeform) shinohai: Reading #trilema logs yesterday got me thinking would be worthwhile to pick up where esthlos left off on his vtron (add diff function, etc) though now wonder if exercise in futility, since apparently this is nothing more than kindergarten Strafbataillon, and any discussion of subj merely fodder for asciilifeform to kek over with MP. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-03#1933448
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:51 asciilifeform: trinque: it's 'gordian knot' that has to be cut ~somehow~. consider, as of yet asciilifeform cannot vtronicize that kernel patch, cuz... no kernel genesis.
(trilema) asciilifeform: q is whether also can have vtronic 'cartilage' to connect the stones in the pile.
(trilema) asciilifeform: if accept '100MB genesis' , then most of 'portage' is actually redundant, and as i understand whole thing can be replaced with a slightly mechanized vtron
(trilema) asciilifeform: if 'portage' cannot be cut into vtronicizable parts, it'll have to be thrown, tertium non datur
(trilema) asciilifeform: in fact, recall how trb 'chicken' genesis was a hand-cranked recipe, cuz had to delete binary gif turds etc and vtron of the time could not autodigest such deletion
(trilema) asciilifeform: e.g alternative of asciilifeform's 'here is my hash of mp's gpg-1.4.10' thing is fundamentally sinful , cuz not in fact vtronically contiguous w/ original
(trilema) asciilifeform: trinque: it's 'gordian knot' that has to be cut ~somehow~. consider, as of yet asciilifeform cannot vtronicize that kernel patch, cuz... no kernel genesis.
(trilema) asciilifeform: this resembles asciilifeform's orig. argument against having to write vtron -- 'just press the fucking patches by hand, lazy people'. but mircea_popescu didn't buy it then, so had to write vtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i.e. specifically what vtronics was designed to abolish
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919415 << i must point out, this item imho is orthogonal to the problem of this thrd, a standard 'machine' does not remove the need for proper 'systemwide vtron'-aka-portage-replacement
(trilema) asciilifeform: there is even a (sad, disused, esthlos went to bottom of sea) but last i saw -- working -- cl vtron
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'ebuilds', as i understand trinque's angle was/is to organically replace gentoo's ebuild duct tape with vtron
(trilema) mod6: I used diana_coman's vtron build with the same. Pressed the (yet unverified by lord keccak vpatch bundle that I created in January) keccak tree, made the changes in the makefiles, etc. Have a vpatch.
(trilema) asciilifeform: where includes working vtron, muslgnat, etc
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-04-25 15:09 asciilifeform: e.g. an auto-installable cuntoo that runs on commonplace irons and includes working gnat, vtron, etc. would save massive amount of work, vs. current situation where 'oh you bought a new box? here's a buncha toothpicks and glue'
(trilema) asciilifeform: e.g. an auto-installable cuntoo that runs on commonplace irons and includes working gnat, vtron, etc. would save massive amount of work, vs. current situation where 'oh you bought a new box? here's a buncha toothpicks and glue'
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( recall, is why e.g. mod6 wrote ~own~ vtron )
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 16:04 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907304 << i formerly thought that this was obvious from the docs , but you ~can~ operate on vpatches without a vtron ( they're edible by trad. unix 'patch' util, and you can verify the sigs with anyffin roughly gpg-like , also by hand )
(trilema) asciilifeform: OriansJ: you may find it interesting that a number of noobs wrote own vtron, rather than bothering to audit the old; the former is generally easier than the latter
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907304 << i formerly thought that this was obvious from the docs , but you ~can~ operate on vpatches without a vtron ( they're edible by trad. unix 'patch' util, and you can verify the sigs with anyffin roughly gpg-like , also by hand )
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( even tho it is about the ancient proof of concept vtron, with old-style hashes etc., re the basic mechanics it is still 100% correct )
(trilema) asciilifeform: pretty sad, imho : esthlos wrote a++ log summaries, a working vtron, possibly other items i cant recall
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( trb vgenesis released slightly ~prior~ to 1st vtron per se, recall )
(trilema) mircea_popescu: esthlos had a pretty cool vtron if i recall.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ^ also had a vtron. but then sank to the bottom of the sea, so unmaintained afaik.
(trilema) asciilifeform: hanbot: other nitpick -- v.py is asciilifeform's orig. demo; v.pl is mod6's vtron
(trilema) asciilifeform: hanbot: it is also possible to bootstrap any vtron using naked gpg, ancient gnupatch, and bare teeth ( manually check sig and patch -p0 < foo.patch, for ea. )
(trilema) asciilifeform: vtronicism-ducttape.
(trilema) asciilifeform: trinque: this makes sense, esp. in light of where portage really oughta be replaced with vtronic system eventually
(trilema) asciilifeform: mod6: at the risk of sounding like mircea_popescu in earlier thread -- why is this a mega-project ? i reground ffa to keccak in about 10minute (after getting hold of a working keccak-vtron)
(trilema) asciilifeform: i aint about to disagree with this formula ( it's 100% of the thrust of vtronics, say )
(trilema) asciilifeform: grr, was looking for mircea_popescu's also for vtron file movements, still not found in log
(trilema) asciilifeform: fwiw i gave orig vtron, 'v.py' , 100. it's on 97 (phf's revision) and when i get around to massaging it, i suppose will be 96, and i dunsee why to touch it again after that..
(trilema) mircea_popescu: because i recall a similar problem in ~old~ vtrons
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( they aint got vtronics, so nfi what if anyffing their sig ~means~ )
(trilema) asciilifeform: afaik there are currently 3 working ( i.e. with keccak format ) vtrons , v.py ( as patched by phf ) , v.pl ( patched by diana_coman ) and esthlos
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: v.py was my orig vtron , as preserved in amber in http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory/
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-12-03 19:31 asciilifeform: spyked: it's the 1st one most folx used, given as it was the first vtron
(trilema) asciilifeform: spyked: it's the 1st one most folx used, given as it was the first vtron
(trilema) spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-03#1877949 <-- ftr, v.py was the first vtron that I read, and I think it's a great didactic implem (though nowadays esthlos v is imho a good competitor in that field)
(trilema) asciilifeform: lobbes: asciilifeform currently using diana_coman's vtron , worx a+++
(trilema) asciilifeform: correct vtron duncare whether $string contains .
(trilema) asciilifeform: and ftr naming convention ( carried on since asciilifeform's original vtron ) is simply that patch is $string.vpatch and sig is $string.vpatch.author.sig .
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: vtron (including phf's , and in fact his esp. well) solves.
(trilema) asciilifeform intended to release a thing somewhat like it with the orig 2015 vtron, but asciilifeform's wwwtronics was not equal to the task, never made a usable incarnation of item
(trilema) trinque: appears to be the culmination of many different threads, vtronic www, vtronic portage, much else.
(trilema) asciilifeform: definitely is the absolutely smallest part of a vtronic project
(trilema) asciilifeform: but imho a vtronic acct system would rock
(trilema) asciilifeform: but that vtronic record would make certain classes of ugh, impossible
(trilema) asciilifeform: while we're on subj, mircea_popescu do you think it'd make sense to keep books vtronically? or would it be a case of 'take the rifle to fishing'
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-19#1873666 << much of what seems to n00bs as 'unnatural acrobatics' in vtronics is in fact the actual and inevitable cost of writing proggies ~honestly~ -- i.e. without pretending, as the heathens do, that 'i only changed this one little thing, whatddayamean it's a new program now'
(trilema) bvt: but i would agree that one's understanding of vtronics is determined by ones toposorter implementation.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i've added all kindsa 'new api' in ffa, but the only regrind was when we took up new hash type for vtrons
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-11-14 00:20 mod6: 2) http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-13#1872126 << diana_coman I tried to leave you a note on your blog. But seems that you've based the genesis off of my vtron version 99994K, but there is a newer version: http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20180222.tar.gz http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20180222.tar.gz.mod6.sig Which is denoted as version 99993K.
(trilema) mod6: ah yeah (0x05), it is a significant change from all previous releases of my vtron.
(trilema) mod6: 2) http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-13#1872126 << diana_coman I tried to leave you a note on your blog. But seems that you've based the genesis off of my vtron version 99994K, but there is a newer version: http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20180222.tar.gz http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20180222.tar.gz.mod6.sig Which is denoted as version 99993K.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-11-13 21:36 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-13#1872052 << i'ma hold off on posting http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-13#1871779 item , then, so that i can link to diana_coman's vtron
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-13#1872052 << i'ma hold off on posting http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-13#1871779 item , then, so that i can link to diana_coman's vtron
(trilema) asciilifeform: vtron -- yes he did
(trilema) asciilifeform: btw i confirmed that phf's v98 ( when patched to remove the subkey handler thing ) successfully presses ch1-11, with bitwise-correct results ( compared with classic vtron )
(trilema) asciilifeform: once we have a One Troo scripting language ( possibly some variant of spyked's gc-less ada lisp.. ) i'd like to write a vtron in that ( supposing nobody else beats me to it )
(trilema) asciilifeform: it defo should not be considered 'the' vtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: phf: right, my current understanding is that presently ~errybody has a kludged vtron, but no one yet posted a 'canonical' variant that's 1) properly genesis'd 2) worx errywhere
(trilema) asciilifeform: mod6's vtron is my current all-time favourite
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( i need specifically both vtrons to work on these boxen , with no systemwide modifications )
(trilema) asciilifeform: seems like the closest thing to a working keccak-vtron currently is phf's v98 tho
(trilema) phf: asciilifeform: i'm surprised at this entirely un-vtronic argument. your "10kb proggy" brings in a magic dependency, that nobody else has except for you
(trilema) asciilifeform: phf: i dun want to glom python-gnupg into vtron tho!
(trilema) asciilifeform: and imho it is pretty sad that a vtron even sees ~anything~ 'systemwide'.
(trilema) deedbot: asciilifeform rated bvt 1 at 2018/10/10 21:20:12 << n00b, ada/vtronics experiments
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu barfed at my 'let's forbid semantically meaningful newlines in vtronics' item, earlier.
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