Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-06-05 | 2022-06-07 → ↓
verisimilitude: They can use them to transport plastic pellets disguised as rice, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: 'the rice of the future' !
d4: asciilifeform: what do you think about OTR?
signpost: ^ going to move this over to pest now.
phf: signpost: what was that a reference to?
asciilifeform: phf: deedbot, loox like
signpost: deedbot parting
phf: ah ty
asciilifeform: signpost: would be handy to have it in #a (which asciilifeform plans to keep around as a n00b door, until figures out a way to cleanly bridge an irc door to pestnet) but not essential imho
verisimilitude: I suppose the goal for moving over to Pest is within this year, right?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: some folx already 'moved over'
phf: what about an http client?
asciilifeform: !q uptime
dulapbot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 355d 14h 42m
signpost: asciilifeform: problem is that it doesn't understand being connected to two different IRC servers, would take some rework to make happen.
asciilifeform: signpost: a
verisimilitude: Was that directed towards me, phf?
asciilifeform: phf: jsistic irc client already exists neh
asciilifeform: ( a js pest client is theoretically possible, but where would it keep old msgs ? )
phf: my pest is not going to be to spec, interested parties can extend once i release, specifically i'm not going to do irc layer at all
asciilifeform: not to mention fact that you can't sit down on a pestnet w/out getting some keys, and where keep keys ?
asciilifeform: phf: verisimilitude was making iirc exactly such a client
asciilifeform included the irc knobs so as to remove 'blocking' problem of writing clients, guis, etc. but is certainly possible to drive a pestron via a dedicated interface w/out ircism
shinohai: I like the irc compatibility simply because it's comfy.
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-06#1104827 << i was thinking to integrate it into btcbase logger, so messages are kept in logger, and when speaking either as "a111" or as hearsay
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-06 13:46:50 asciilifeform: not to mention fact that you can't sit down on a pestnet w/out getting some keys, and where keep keys ?
asciilifeform: phf: when who's speaking ?
asciilifeform: shinohai: irc compat. makes for relatively painless integration of existing bots, gui chat clients, etc
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's thought was 'why fix what aint broken'
asciilifeform: irc imho is perfectly adequate means of passing text to/from a chat frontend or bot
phf: well, when a111 announces links or whatever, speaks as itself, and if it's getting translating messages from a web user, it will just act as relay
asciilifeform: if 'public toilet' relay, how will speakers have valid selfchains ?
signpost: imho the usenet-like features are interesting enough to eventually merit pest-specific clients
asciilifeform: signpost: eventually defo
signpost would like to blog into such.
asciilifeform: ditto the proposed warez knobs
asciilifeform: ... if phf posts a self-contained cl pestronics lib, could be integrated directly into bots etc. nifty
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-06#1104839 << they don't, they just see whatever a111 sees and logs
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-06 13:54:36 asciilifeform: if 'public toilet' relay, how will speakers have valid selfchains ?
asciilifeform: phf: will work, i suppose, unless we do the unique handles pill from earlier thrd
asciilifeform: ^ not in current spec/draft
phf: i'll have to digest that thread, at present i don't see a point of hearsay coordination
phf: in my mind any station can claim whatever hearsay, and if it doesn't play nice, then you talk to the operator, tell him to stop pushing "i hear asciilifeform said i'm a poopy head" messages
asciilifeform: phf: asciilifeform recs to read the threads; there's coupla nonobv. problems (e.g. talk to ~which~ operator ?)
asciilifeform: say the collision is b/w 2 branches in yer l3+
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's pov (and why bothered with 'selfchain', 'forks', etc) is that one oughta enforce handle uniqueness to the degree ~possible~ ('but not further')
asciilifeform: it was the 1 serious win of classical centralized irc nets
asciilifeform: and imho oughta be preserved, to extent possible, in p2p topology. q is 'how much possible?'
phf: asciilifeform: talk to l1s relaying it, so they talk to their l1s, etc.
phf: i thought that the responsibility chain runs like in the old warez communities "you're responsible for whoever your brought in, and they misbehave you're out also"
phf: *if they
asciilifeform: phf: and when 2+ nets merge, and this produces a handle collison ? (aka the 'bob' problem)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-27 09:39:16 PeterL: I'm thinking of the situation where two nets come together, both have a guy named "bob", can one pick a different name without having to re-peer with everybody?
asciilifeform: who is 'the troo bob'.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's position is that it at all times must be possible to ~distinguish~ the 'bobs'.
asciilifeform: if cannot distinguish -- then 'talk to each l1' will be of questionable use
verisimilitude: On the topic of an IRC interface, I figure it would be simple to have a little program sit between the Pest log and the operator, to provide exactly this with fewer complications.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: thick sandwitches of glue are imho untasty
verisimilitude: So is IRC.
asciilifeform does not begrudge verisimilitude or anybody else their custom ircless pestrons
asciilifeform: but asciilifeform operates bots, likes using various traditional chat clients, etc
asciilifeform: has 0 intention to fuck around in the guts of ancient x11 proggies to bake in pest support any time soon
verisimilitude: If I don't finish in time, I'll just have to have someone else's Pest log in my way, so I can replace it later.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: can read public log of the public pestnet even nao
asciilifeform: but will need a client to tx
verisimilitude: How will I bother others without being able to send messages, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: perhaps via phf's thing
asciilifeform: but ideally errybody oughta have an adult station
asciilifeform: there's very little reason not to, thimbronion's current draft client is notbad
verisimilitude: I can see phf writing ``if name = verisimilitude then fuck_you; end if;''.
asciilifeform: iirc jonsykkel's also mostly worx nao
phf: verisimilitude: that reminds me of an old emacs thread, where "how can the faithful use emacs if potential contributors are jews and are putting subtle bugs to subvert allah's will"
verisimilitude: How large is a current Pest, anyway; I'd figure fewer than two thousand lines, easily.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: take a look, wainot
verisimilitude: Well, I'm lazy, but okay.
phf: asciilifeform: i'm leaning towards "two bobs are social problem" :>
asciilifeform: phf: laff if you like, but is essentially valid q. and eternal headache for folx who not invented vtronics yet.
asciilifeform: phf: 'social problem' aint a license to do nuffin to allow technical means for resolution, imho
asciilifeform: again, to extent physically possible.
asciilifeform: this was the downfall of the orig. irc for that matter.
asciilifeform: left all problems of misbehaviour as 'social problem' with no means of effective cure other than fascist centralization/moderation
phf: i think peer/hearsay is an elegant model, specifically allows for all kinds of interesting hearsay, e.g. toilet http client, personal telegram translator, etc. i suspect if you start restricting "what kind of hearsay" will limit the use cases significantly to essentially "better irc"
verisimilitude: ``As you may know, "blatta" is Latin for "cockroach."'' I didn't yet know, but how neat.
signpost: does seem that whatever solution, it will have to treat both relayers of bobs equally.
asciilifeform: phf: not so interested in restricting but in ~distinguishing~ ( and thereby permitting indiv. operators to filter, if req'd )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: iirc deliberate
verisimilitude: It's a quote from the website, so I agree.
asciilifeform: phf: observe btw that a good % of hearsay on the current pestnet is 'from my peer but somehow peering aint working atm'
asciilifeform: i.e. the sort of thing that wouldn't exist in 'ideal' net where erything rsa'd etc
asciilifeform: that these aint physically distinguishable from 'randos in pub toilet' is unfortunate.
asciilifeform: when nat drilling properly implemented in clients, expect this kinda thing will lessen -- but doubt will disappear 100%
asciilifeform: ... upstack, re: the decline & fall of the great irc nets -- see also.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:33:12 asciilifeform: imho irc went in wholly wrong direction of development when the large nets formed.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-01 13:38:53 asciilifeform: cgra: apparently irc has this subtle braindamage baked in at algo level. and is, evidently, why all the great irc nets eventually not only schismed, but acrimoniously schismed and turned into palace-reichs and eventually burn down
asciilifeform: ... observe that 'bob problem' aint even a result of 'misbehaviour' (~which~ 'bob' is 'misbehaving' ? from pov of each of the merged nets, ~their~ 'bob' is the 'one troo bob')
signpost: to push the other direction for a sec, might not be worth solving.
asciilifeform: signpost: imho is worth solving ~to extent solvable~
asciilifeform: asciilifeform aint satisfied that it aint solvable.
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-06#1104881 << both blatta and smalpest work great in my testing, and have noticed 0 issues with 'em talking to each other (e.g. smalpest no longer performs DOS on blatta)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-06 14:12:22 asciilifeform: iirc jonsykkel's also mostly worx nao
signpost: you either know one, or both, and can disambiguate.
signpost: or you distinguish via which of your l1 knows.
asciilifeform: signpost: and if the merge happens in your l3+ ?
asciilifeform: then cannot distinguish.
asciilifeform: both bobs quite possibly reach you via the same l1 peer.
signpost: if messages flood to all peers equally, and carry no information over which nodes they have propagated, dun see with what to distinguish.
asciilifeform: ( atm they are distinguishable via selfchains, but only if neither 'bob' is deliberately forging )
signpost: right, *hard* distinguish.
asciilifeform: algo ftr, if recall, for 'hard distinguish'. obv. imperfect.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-26 18:48:29 asciilifeform: thimbronion: current notion, summarized: we bite off 64byte from payload, and get 2 new fields, call'em 'unlock' and 'lock'. lock == h256(errything else in msg, incl. 'unlock', and unrevealed 32byte turd 'S'.); unlock = 'S' from yer previous msg.
asciilifeform: but possibly imho worth implementing.
asciilifeform not put it in spec, because 1) 100% breaks compat. with all existing clients 2) imho oughta be discussed at length before even to propose in spec
signpost horking back into head, sec
asciilifeform: signpost: the essence was, in each message you broadcast, you put in a h(randomturd); in ~n+1st~ message, reveal randomturd.
signpost: right, so in forcing bobs to "show their cards" in subsequent messages, distinguished.
signpost: got it
asciilifeform: forger in 'mitm' can of course forge messages 0...n. but only for so long as continuously sits b/w the victims.
phf: but how to distinguish "signpost says bob, you're the greatest"
asciilifeform: phf: no clean way of doing so in standard pure-text (irc-style) chat
asciilifeform: ( but hypothetically could , if one could embed 'meta' turdolate, indicate 'which bob' chainwise signpost is speaking of )
verisimilitude: Isn't this just another reason to not use IRC?
verisimilitude: Oh, I see.
phf: this particularly becomes a problem when filtering
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: plenty of reasons 'not to use irc' (e.g. to use netchains for usenet-style threading) but then gotta bake new clients.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform specifically refused to make experimentation w/ pestronics contingent on using some halfbaked cli client
verisimilitude: This really seems intractable in important ways, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: which?
verisimilitude: If I be at a party with two bobs, suspend disbelief for this, and I speak of Bob, others will be confused or just know of whom I speak.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in actual practice usually know
asciilifeform: ( and nuffin stops you from asking, 'bob who?' )
verisimilitude: Yes, Bob the best or Bob the bastard.
asciilifeform: 'bob the bridge-builder, or bob the goat-fucker?'(tm)
signpost: "bob who revealed knowledge of S1 vs Sn" ?
asciilifeform: well you can only 'reveal knowledge' of s_n-1
asciilifeform: after hearing s_n+1, ~errybody~ knows s_n
signpost: sorry, "chain of messages denoted by last-known S"
asciilifeform: it also allows formulating a meaningful q to 'ask yer l1 peers' (as peer msgs are prima facie authentic)
signpost: discovering forgery does appear to require inquiring with neighbors, yes
asciilifeform: that, or forger runs outta steam eventually
asciilifeform recognizes the 'inelegance' of the h(s) scheme , 'yer trying to get the win from rsa sigs w/out paying price of rsa, and will never be as good as Real Thing' but imho over9000x beats 'nuffin'
asciilifeform: a primary objective of pest algo is 'messages cheap enuff to process that you can do it at nic line rate', and sadly incompat. w/ the use of any known serious pubkey sig algo w/out custom iron.
signpost: at least indicates what's intended to be a distinct line of messages.
asciilifeform: self/net chains primarily for this.
signpost: what if one's l1 peers periodically attested to the head-message of their l1?
asciilifeform: ( cooperating stations simple to distinguish )
asciilifeform: signpost: this already in spec ( 'prod' )
signpost: ah whoops
signpost: then yeah, I don't see a problem with this at the moment.
signpost will keep digesting
asciilifeform: no hurry
asciilifeform: ( per current spec, all ~well-behaved~ stations on a pestnet, to arbitrary depth, are distinguishable )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-06 13:15:49 d4: asciilifeform: what do you think about OTR?
asciilifeform: d4: arguably all pest msgs are 'otr' .
asciilifeform: ( i.e. is impossible to prove later to a third party that you hadn't sent it ~to yourself~ )
asciilifeform: given how there are no private keys in pest, only peering keys known simult. to both ends of a peering.
asciilifeform: d4: see e.g. this thread re what is won from this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 16:28:52 asciilifeform: thimbronion: it means that if bob is a provocateur, he cannot demonstrate to his employer that alice said $x.
asciilifeform: ^ recs that day's thrds to all pest n00bs, lotsa good discussion imho
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