mats: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-10-30#1023787 << isnt that snowden's original intent? he wasnt looking to burn nsa to the ground, but expose the dragnet
snsabot: Logged on 2020-10-30 10:49:39 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-10-29#1023772 << not esp. surprised. and quite lulzy complaint when coming from the fuckwad who personally censored the snowden papers.
PeterL: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-10-31#1023906 << should be "edits to two separate files in non-orderable" -- it could be the same contributor
snsabot: Logged on 2020-10-31 11:58:15 trinque: iirc the prompt for the manifest was my and others' observation that two edits to the same file by two different contributors is undecidable. do I have that part right?
trinque: PeterL: why the fuck would the same contributor do that?
PeterL: perhaps they are two seprate issues, so they put it in two separate v-patches?
trinque: think, they'd both start from same antecedent hash
PeterL: but isn't the antecedent hash at the file level?
trinque: maybe you can restate the problem first
PeterL: the manifest was added so that you could press vpatches that contain patches to unrelated files in a set order
PeterL: if the edits are to the same file, you just press to vpatch 1 or vpatch 2. if the edits are to different files, before adding the manifest, pressing to vpatch 1 would not include the change from vpatch 2, and pressing to vpatch 2 would not include the change from vpatch 1
PeterL: but people would often want to include both
trinque: you haven't loaded what I've said into your head, and I was in the original thread that resulted in the manifest.
trinque: if one pressed all that could be pressed, why would order of unrelated patches matter *until* they create a conflict where there are multiple patches specifying the same antecedent.
trinque: in which case, deciding which patch to use next is decidable if 1) no two authors are equal and 2) no author produces two patches with same antecedent
trinque: two might point to the need for a permanent repudiation signal
trinque: i.e. I should be able to say "sorry, I was an ass, and that patch should be shot on sight"
trinque: I may be wrong, but I'd like *that* idea critiqued.
PeterL: but is that really dependent on the manifest at all?
trinque: surely it's clear I'm saying the manifest is a bad hack.
PeterL: I think the manifest is unrealted (perhaps I am misunderstanding the flow you have envisioned?)
trinque: please go take a look at asciilifeform's original v.py, and then the threads thereafter.
trinque: and you'll see when and why the manifest came in.
PeterL: yes, I have read them
trinque: let's start from the top then. what problem did the manifest solve?
PeterL: iirc, people made patches affecting different files, and to include both you had to press to one and then manually add the other patch
trinque: please explain why you had to
PeterL: so people started munging the readme, until the manifest was added as a more elegant solution
trinque: hold on, you skipped over miles of territory taking people's decisions as self-evident reality
PeterL: sorry, trying to summarize briefly
trinque: where did this "press to" idea come from?
PeterL: you tell v to press to a file, it patches all the antecedants and that file (am I not using the term correctly?)
trinque: that's strange, because the causes proceed outward from genesis.vpatch, not backward from "head"
PeterL: I'm not sure I understand what you mean
trinque: a vpatch is a transitive verb, and its direct object is the state produced by its antecedents.
trinque: first there's the state produced by genesis, and then so following.
trinque: brb, acquiring tacos
PeterL: I guess it depends on if you say "here are a bunch of vpaches, build them" or "here are a bunch of vpaches, use whatever you need to get to x"?
shinohai ponders whether trinque is referring to traditional tacos or the euphemism for same .....
PeterL: the first option being a hand-manicured folder containing vpatches you want, the second being an algorithmically determined build that ignores extraneous vpatches and allows forks to be selected at time of press
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-01#1024001 <<< only one I've had is same bot that plagues #therealbitcoin $RND@static.188.8.131.52.clients.your-server.de
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-01 21:17:16 asciilifeform: shinohai: i've nfi from where is the uptick in spambots, but find it interesting that the traditional pill (+r) dunwork -- evidently perp has 'over 9000' preregged accts
asciilifeform: shinohai: the thing in #trb most likely aint a bot, but rather crawlers (and the occasional lamer) coming in via the kiwi-irc link on the trb www .
asciilifeform: shinohai: for a short time i had these on my log www per-chan, but then removed
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-01#1024002 << i actually had read this same piece some yrs ago, but ended up stuck in an attempt to implement via solely integer arithm..
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-01 21:54:38 trinque: grunting through a little prototype of https://www.math.nyu.edu/media/mathfin/publications/TR2002-833.pdf
shinohai: This one is, in fact, bot tho if the /whois info is correct - advertises self as "Jave IRC bot"
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024003 << i've not ever met him, nor did he bother to pgpsign his publications, so imho is quite impossible to discuss 'what snowden's original intent'. all we have re subj is the spew of various usg stooges, of the controlled-opposition variety, 'speaking for' him.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-02 05:58:03 mats: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-10-30#1023787 << isnt that snowden's original intent? he wasnt looking to burn nsa to the ground, but expose the dragnet
asciilifeform: that being said, why the fuck ~not~ burn it to the ground if you can ? why treat usg any differently than it treats you, when the tables are turned ? it aint as if usg hesitated to burn e.g. the branch davidians to the ground. was not content to 'simply expose' their (imaginary) crimes, no.
asciilifeform: greenwald, poitras, & co. are complicit in keeping secrets for usg. ( and, afaik, w/out even being paid to ! or even having signed any nda ! ) and, consequently, complicit in perpetrating whatever usg atrocities are still enabled -- directly or otherwise -- by the nonpublication of the whole stash.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024013 << this is a correct and afaik complete summary. recall my 'shiva' patch series for trb -- iirc was what originally provoked the question
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-02 09:51:16 PeterL: if the edits are to the same file, you just press to vpatch 1 or vpatch 2. if the edits are to different files, before adding the manifest, pressing to vpatch 1 would not include the change from vpatch 2, and pressing to vpatch 2 would not include the change from vpatch 1
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024019 << thus far folx have been doing this informally. but! in certain applications this won't do.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-02 09:54:38 trinque: i.e. I should be able to say "sorry, I was an ass, and that patch should be shot on sight"
snsabot: Logged on 2020-10-31 12:37:28 asciilifeform: trinque: imho this is still a useful line of thought, tho, for e.g. hypothetical vtronic p2p mirror system and any other large-scale apparatus which rides on wot.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024022 << recall, i barfed at the time, but eventually gave in, because could not in fact think of any cleaner solution to the imho very real problem of 'spuriously independent' nodes on flowgraph.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-02 09:55:36 trinque: surely it's clear I'm saying the manifest is a bad hack.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024035 << it does: proceeds through the toposorted patches. (note, however, the implicit bug in the orig. vtron, where 'sibling' nodes on the dep. graph -- if present anywhere -- would not necessarily be handled correctly )
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-02 10:03:43 trinque: that's strange, because the causes proceed outward from genesis.vpatch, not backward from "head"
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024042 << 1 nitpick : in my orig. vtron, the presence of an extraneous piece was a fatal eggog by default. and there was no prompting to select anything, item ran 100% w/out user interaction.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-02 10:25:58 PeterL: the first option being a hand-manicured folder containing vpatches you want, the second being an algorithmically determined build that ignores extraneous vpatches and allows forks to be selected at time of press
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: $13512.01
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 16 nodes...
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.104s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.089s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Alive: (0.133s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : Alive: (0.117s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.098s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=654854 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : Alive: (0.143s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Alive: (0.194s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Alive: (0.199s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : (static.188.8.131.52.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.291s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=391673 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Alive: (0.327s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=655129
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (182518.pk.3pp.slovanet.sk) Alive: (0.383s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=431470
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length!
PeterL: asciilifeform: did the original v.py not take an input as to what vpatch to build to?
PeterL: re anti-patches, could you have a separate "repudiation key", where anything it signs gets ignored thereafter?
asciilifeform: PeterL: orig v.py did take, precisely 1, patch-to-press-to .
asciilifeform: PeterL: imho 'repudiation key' is wholly unnecessary gnarl. 'antipatch' imho is cleaner solution, though still would have to rescind the old chess-like 'may not recreate a past board position' rule, to make it work
asciilifeform: ( rescind how ? simply permit a return to past state , strictly when the state is ~immediately~ preceding the patch being undone . )
mats: asciilifeform: i forget where i heard him say it, but it would make sense that he wanted journos to censor material that's not relevant to legal activities, or he'd have put up a torrent / delivered to wikileaks
mats: he makes live video appearances every now and again
asciilifeform: mats: this aint hard to arrange for arbitrary script, w/ modern photoshopism. ( not to mention that 'not rock the boat further' was publicly a condition set by putin for so long as snowden sits in ru )
mats: i'm not familiar with state of the art audio/video deepfakery, would it be undetectable?
asciilifeform: re journos -- if he trusted'em to 'only publish relevant pieces' -- then idiot (who failed at 'kill the policeman in yer own head')
trinque: asciilifeform: yeah wasn't proposing repudiation key. you're right, a revert patch is the obvious solution.
mats: some of the audio stuff i've heard of obama, didn't sound so good
trinque: I could've sworn there was a V which would just press all that could be pressed, but perhaps I dreamt it.
asciilifeform: mats: undetectable when done properly, by pros (who start w/ a body double and work from there)
asciilifeform: trinque: imho revert patch is the solution. would require a change to the toposort, however, to detect cycles of length 1.
mats: the journos he picked turned out to be true believers in democracy, and poitras lives in the reich, so it actually worked out ok as far as he planned it
mats: i'd have liked to read summaries of those docs but too bad
asciilifeform: mats: 'worked out ok' in the sense of having ~0 detectable real-world effect. usg actually succeeded in neutralizing the leak, the many yrs of cultivating tame 'journalists' paid off.
asciilifeform: these same 'journalists' incidentally nailed some unknown number of post-snowden leakers who did not make it outta the reich in time, and were dumb enuff to trust 'respectable journalists'
mats: besides reality winner, who else?
asciilifeform: mats: (by rumour strictly) the 'ant catalogue' fella.
asciilifeform: ^ incidentally, the source of 100% of the actual technically-interesting dirt that is often misattributed to snowden
asciilifeform: apropos: nothing at all has ever leaked publicly re nsa crypto. to this day. evidently whatever process used for plugging leaks of actually important info, works, when they actually want it to work.
mats: is his name known?
asciilifeform: mats: not afaik
asciilifeform: only known that != snowden.
mats: i remember some TAO(?) guy got pinned up for taking home and hoarding a ton of data in his garage
asciilifeform: this, coupla yrs later ( 'wannacry'(tm)(r) & other goodies )
mats: i hope tencent makes a shiny movie out of these episodes someday
mats: like MSS rolling up the entire cia humint network inside .cn between '10 and 13
asciilifeform recalls this
mats: or the buckeye folks somehow having the eternalblue variant a year before the shadowbrokers faux auction
mats: a real string of uninterrupted wins that must be demoralizing
mats: who wants to be a walk-in when there's probably still a live nsa mole
asciilifeform: the actual 'winner' will be whatever country is 1st to get the permanent fuck off microshit & poetteringware.
mats: you read about the loongson news?
asciilifeform: mats: nope. is it finally bankrupt ?
asciilifeform haven't seen a product of theirs for sale, in either english or ru net, in many yrs
asciilifeform: mats: elbrus, if you recall, is the ru version of these. 1990s-performant cpu, offered at 1980s price point , with 1970s availability.
mats: seems reasonable considering the renewed attacks on .cn semiconductor supply chain
mats: beijing/SMIC can afford to pick off tsmc engineers one by one with massive comp packages
asciilifeform: mats: it aint clear to me why 'chinese, national' cpu has to be made at enemy's tmsc.
asciilifeform: ( elbrus, incidentally, also made at tmsc )
asciilifeform: 'national cpu' is a sad joke if it depends on outsourcing to enemy.
mats: it doesn't, i'm sure its a stopgap since their domestic capability is so far behind
mats: hopefully this trade war pushes that effort further along
mats: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3107496/taiwanese-wont-dare-visit-mainland-china-after-tv-spy some other recent espionage news
mats: jives with claims from a retired tw spymaster that the covert war is as hot today as it was during the civil war
mats: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/2185537/taiwanese-spymaster-looks-back-killing-led-end-islands-martial for the curious
asciilifeform does not follow the subj in realtime, but expects these to continue while usg remains inbiz
asciilifeform: 'unsinkable aircraft carrier'(tm)(r)
mats: its a precarious situation for beijing, a military full of only children and enemies to the west and east
mats: in my last msg of the day, i heard a congressman say beijing can build 1-1.5k aircraft carrier killer missiles at the same cost as an aircraft carrier warontherocks.com/2020/11/banks-and-moulton-on-military-might-and-the-american-future
asciilifeform: mats: for so long as usg & cn nomenklatura intermarried, there'll be no wars
asciilifeform: what yer seeing currently is threat circus, to justify gigabux expenditures on wunderwaffen
asciilifeform: entirely mutually beneficial for the elites in question.
mats: i cant resist, i dont expect the peace to last, how can the hindus possibly contain 1.38bn (and a projected 1.47 by 2030) starving people from surging east and west
mats: especially as the demographic decline in the west and china continues
verisimilitude: I'm typing this on a Loongson. It's a decent machine.
verisimilitude: There's no mention of whether it features Free Software, as the Lemote Yeeloong does, unfortunately.
verisimilitude: It also doesn't mention if it's another MIPS or not.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'ma aware that you own 1 of the early loongsons. and i expect that you know that they have not been seen, even on collector market, in some years.
asciilifeform had been trying to buy 1 for rather long time; gave up
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024143 << this is not much known in english sphere, but in ru there is a multigenerational psychosis re 'china will fill up, surge west, invade'. not happened yet.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-02 14:24:45 mats: i cant resist, i dont expect the peace to last, how can the hindus possibly contain 1.38bn (and a projected 1.47 by 2030) starving people from surging east and west
snsabot: Logged on 2020-10-29 11:45:39 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-10-29#1023733 << early orlov had a nifty piece re: how 'the permanent objective of usa's 1party state is the continuation of Business-As-Usual' .
asciilifeform: all the current slave empires have exactly 1 strategic objective : 'business-as-usual'. ad infinitum.
verisimilitude: I'm aware, yes, asciilifeform.
verisimilitude: What amuses me about this is how I've seen some in the US tend to point to Russia as an example of doing things like this correctly.
verisimilitude: ``Russia doesn't care if the machine is slow or heavy, just that it's made in Russia.''
verisimilitude: It's insanity to let the Chinese have nearly complete dominion over the world's magic rocks, like bad fiction.
feedbot: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/some-shower-thoughts-on-networks-and-referencing/ << Fixpoint -- Some shower thoughts on networks and referencing
trinque: verisimilitude: not to oversimplify, but "what are you going to do about it?"
trinque: this presumption that the west is still in the position of "letting" things doesn't appear to match reality.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024159 << asciilifeform strongly suspects that all thinking folx are doomed to eventually reinvent p2p hosting . ( trickier -- to actually make it go. and w/out reintroducing centralizations, as in e.g. mp's ludicrous 'gns' power grab propo
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-02 16:53:08 feedbot: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/some-shower-thoughts-on-networks-and-referencing/ << Fixpoint -- Some shower thoughts on networks and referencing
snsabot: Logged on 2020-03-19 12:32:20 asciilifeform: why the hell is a typical public www bound to 1 box? specifically, why could not exist as an auto-mirrorable directory of signed material ?
snsabot: Logged on 2020-10-07 14:58:18 asciilifeform: PeterL: i won't presume to speak for trinque , but in asciilifeform's conception, the obv. Right Thing would be an item which rides atop ipv4 in the same sense that the latter once rode atop telco grid; and w/ cryptographic routing (i.e. yer address is a pubkey) and ciphration (i.e. messages readable strictly by addressee) . all else -- implementation detail.
asciilifeform: sal; or the earlier, similar item in urbit; and other 'it's decentralized(tm) but really here's this magic piece i, fuhrer, control' crackpotteries.
asciilifeform: afaik the last time somebody had the courage to attempt building a honest decentralized system -- was bitcoin.
shinohai: But my Ethereum Name Service.
asciilifeform: shinohai: lol
asciilifeform: before that, iirc, there was 'namecoin' (died of 'altcoinism' iirc)
asciilifeform: ( see also : oblig. ancient crackpottery from asciilifeform re subj. )
shinohai: I had a Namecoin .bit site a loooong time ago, forgot what I did with that. Prolly lost in the pile after I started coming to b.a/trilema
asciilifeform: shinohai: no great loss; afaik thing's as dead as b.a at this pt
verisimilitude: I like the idea that fabricating with older processes will become ever more available, trinque.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i find it interesting that this has not -- despite various predictions -- happened, at any point.
verisimilitude: There are machines running at speeds measured in megahertz which can easily beat the fastest modern machines, because they're more suited to the particulars.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: instead, the older processes go extinct, and the machinery which produced'em is scrapped.
verisimilitude: It's entirely out of my control, but I still like the idea.
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-05-10 asciilifeform: which is, the basic idea of integrated circuit, as we know it, is inherently centralizing
verisimilitude: It's a ``natural monopoly'' is it?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: not quite monopoly. but close.
asciilifeform: ic fab is approx. as amenable to 'mom&pop shop' as is the satellite biz.
verisimilitude: Oh, so all the seemingly independent businesses are actually just government stooges, akin to Tesla; alright.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: how many (nominally) independent fab houses can you think of ?
verisimilitude: Only Chuck Moore comes to mind, and I'm not certain what he uses.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: moore afaik does not operate a fab and never has
asciilifeform: i aint talking about design houses. these, there are thousands of.
verisimilitude: I didn't know if he did or not.
asciilifeform: but of fabs. y'know, the folx w/ cleanrooms, piped elemental fluorine gas, etc.
asciilifeform: 1e9+ $ entry fee, to play.
asciilifeform: iirc moore fabs at mosis co.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: many well-known historic chip vendors have been (and are to this day) fabless. e.g. sun, xilinx, nvidia, apple.
verisimilitude: There's also AMD, yes.
verisimilitude: That's a tad like ``owning'' gold as pieces of paper, isn't it?
asciilifeform: even amd.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: from hygienic pov -- entirely similar.
feedbot: http://mvdstandard.net/2020/11/very-special-livestream-tomorrow-to-celebrate-living-in-south-america/ << The Montevideo Standard -- Very Special Livestream Tomorrow To Celebrate Living In South America
BingoBoingo: ^ asciilifeform and others interested in my experiments with live video
BingoBoingo: Will also be doing a more typical format dive into muck starting around 23:00 tonight MVD time (GMT -3)
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: neato. will try tuning in (nfi atm whether any of my boxes will actually show it)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Good rule of thumb is the more retarded the device and its stack are, the more likely that thing is to work
gregorynyssa: verisimilitude: coincidentally I had the same conversation with asciilifeform two months ago. have a look at: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-08-22#1020105
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 12:44:06 asciilifeform: re (2) , 'start your own coarse-grained fabrication-facility' -- right after i open own spaceport, lol