#asciilifeform | 2019-12-06

spyked: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-12-04#1003147 <-- done. sorry for the delay

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-04 13:51:20 asciilifeform: spyked: can plz add jfw's www to the feedbot roster for #a ? ty

feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2019/12/06/cutting-through-the-tangles-notes-on-graphics-in-eulora-vii/ << Ossa Sepia -- Cutting through the Tangles (Notes on Graphics in Eulora, VII)

asciilifeform: ty spyked

asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere trinque

snsabot: trinque last seen in #trinque on 2019-11-30 22:01:27: ah that was it, had the wrong guy.

shinohai: gm asciilifeform o/

asciilifeform: ohey shinohai .

shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-11-28#1002844 <<< going to publish list of public knobs when I bring bot back online later today.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-28 00:05:25 asciilifeform: shinohai: does that bot have any public knobs yet ?

asciilifeform: shinohai: neato. genesis soon ?

shinohai: Maybe, though I'm kind of mulling whether I want to publish all modules or not (since they are individual lisp scripts).

shinohai: Pretty sure no one here wants the telegram side of bot either.

asciilifeform: lol shinohai , what else is in there, aol messenger plugin ?!

asciilifeform: what possessed you to write such thing ?

shinohai: lol no aol plugin, telegram I did because that's the shitcoin cave these days.

shinohai: Lots of shitcoiners on discord too, but pita to write bots for their api + I don't really use it much.

shinohai: (observe https://github.com/stibear/cl-discord doesn't even work anymore)

asciilifeform: shinohai: found this worth the effort ? what's there in that heathen pit that was interesting ?

shinohai: Well there are a few jobs-for-coin in heathen pit, mainly why I'm there. As said many times, I don't mind converting shitcoins to btc proper.

asciilifeform: a, i assumed this was done using goxes

shinohai: Occasionally lulzy items, as altcoiners try to reinvent fiat BUT ON THE BLOCKCHAIN!

shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-12-06#1003281 <<< you do, but sometimes find otc trader, or the new thing is "DEX" which requires no kyc and such.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-12-06 14:50:17 asciilifeform: a, i assumed this was done using goxes

asciilifeform: the latter operates via heathen chats ?

shinohai: Nah most are some kind of weird where you use "platform token" or OP_CHECKLOCKTIME_VERIFY to make trades.

asciilifeform: i recall using some heathen 'shitc in, btc out' thing for squeezing juice from a forkcoin coupla yrs ago, but iirc that one vanished shortly after

shinohai: But as far as coin things go, jfw 's scheme wallet most interesting item I've seen in year+ or more.

asciilifeform: shinohai: it's the most readable such item i've yet encountered

asciilifeform: even his orig. py prototype is quite readable.

asciilifeform: realized, when reading, that i'ma need extended-euclidean in ffa ( and not only for eccisms, but e.g. cramer-shoup )

shinohai: Dunno why I have such a distaste for py things. When you released shiva, I was pretty excited about using it for rpc things, but I'm not well versed in tinyscheme yet.

asciilifeform: shinohai: as you know, i've written kilometres of py. e.g. device diddles, phuctor frontend, wartime logger .

asciilifeform: it's 'a perl' tho, not fit for safety-critical systems, imho obvious why

asciilifeform orig. learned py to write plugins for 'ida', many yrs ago

shinohai: It has it's places I guess, and of course ran jhvh1 fine for years. But as you stated above, certainly not something I'd want to build Bitcoin wallet on.

asciilifeform: has same place as perl 20y ago.

asciilifeform: 'duct tape.'

shinohai: bash, sed, and awk have always been my duct tape. Still use it to generate www pages xD

asciilifeform: if there were a full-featured scripting lang made by civilized folk, would use that, and throw py out.

asciilifeform: presently none exists tho. ( recall the convos re 'in what log bot?' )

shinohai: Wasn't someone next door working an Adalisp or somesuch at one point?

asciilifeform: i admit, never was able to understand the php aficionados -- what's the use of having a second, even uglier python where cannot e.g. persistent processes , or quick runs from shell ?

asciilifeform: shinohai: spyked iirc made attempt

asciilifeform: but it's larger proj than merely 'port tinyscheme to ada', need various knobs (sockets, db, at the very least) to be of practical use imho

shinohai: I share distaste for php, why I never liked/used turdpress

shinohai: I'm curious, what is asciilifeform 's favourite db ?

asciilifeform: shinohai: i still have www w/ php (sewn from even older wp than mp's) but erry time i open the hood on it, is approx as pleasant as when fiddling old fortranisms

shinohai: lol

asciilifeform: shinohai: for phuctor and logotron used 'postgres' . would not describe as 'favourite', simply was best horse i found in that glue factory.

shinohai: lone php script on my www atm is paste mechanism

shinohai: It's like 50 loc so can stomach it.

asciilifeform: for 'postgres' i at least know how to massage e.g. indices, so can be queried in not o(N). i expect this can be done for other sqltrons, but never found a persuasive reason to try.

asciilifeform: imho best db for 'serious' proggy is an actual purpose-made data structure, with mmap to disk.

asciilifeform: sqlism for db is rather similar to e.g. plasticine as construction material. great if you aren't certain what the shape is to be, but otherwise in erry way suboptimal.

shinohai ducks because using sqlite with bot ....

asciilifeform: shinohai: the 1st phuctor stood on sqlite.

asciilifeform: eventually led to minute+ loads.

asciilifeform: i expect a log bot could run for 1000+ yrs on sqlite easily

shinohai: It's pretty neat if not constantly under load, but yeah can see phuctor exhausting it.

asciilifeform: iirc phf actually got away with having entire working set in ram, no db at all

asciilifeform: ( he never published a lick of src, all i've to go on is his commentary in #t at various times )

shinohai: phf's front end to logger was always my favorite, that's one item I wish he had published. (along with patch viewer)

asciilifeform: would've been great imho to have whole thing

asciilifeform: instead of the current perlisms.

asciilifeform: the patch viewer i'ma have to reimplement (w/ hopper for in-wot sigs) unless he somehow comes back to life

asciilifeform: doesn't seem like anyone else is about to do it; and imho the 'oh hey i signed your proggy, nao where do i put this' situation is ridiculous

asciilifeform: there's no reason for valid in-wot sig to languish as a wp comment until manually copied to 'code shelf' or the like

asciilifeform: it's an eminently automatable thing

shinohai: I've been busy past few months trying to organise all the patches/seals for stuff I use in single place. So have, e.g. trb ffa

diana_coman: asciilifeform: fwiw I don't see that problem; what I sign I put on my code shelf where it belongs.

diana_coman: sure, can automate the process further.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'd rather prefer one where patch viewer and folx can upload sigs which then go where ought to

diana_coman: maybe; I don't really know why would I go about uploading my sig to someone else's site.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: would upload to own site, primarily. and viewer can sync from other folxs' .

asciilifeform: diana_coman: recall mp's crit of asciilifeform's 'i convert and upload jpg by hand', where he 'if i did this, would be 10x fewer photo tours, couldn't be arsed'

diana_coman: myeah, except here the bottleneck is people signing, not "too many sigs"; arguably at some point we get to too many sigs but I don't see it there yet.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: the other reason for wwwistic patch viewer, is so as to link to lines of proggy. presently i have an extremely ugly hack for this.

asciilifeform: ( gnat's html gen thing doesn't in fact permit links to indiv. lines, but only (some!? why? nfi) subroutines; and of course entirely unaware of 'v' )

asciilifeform: ideally, could link to any line in any vtronic proggy, and would be visible 'which patch', 'who signed' .

asciilifeform: phf went most of the way to this before ran outta juice.

diana_coman: yeah, the problem that is easier to solve (for bonus points it also allows for a very elegant solution, yay); true.

asciilifeform actually started work on this in 2015, shortly after published orig. vtron -- but shelved, as phf , much handier wwwtronicist, put one up 1st. but phf never gave src.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: would also like to be able to ~search~ the 'v yggdrasil' (to crib diana_coman's terminology)

diana_coman: I'd like first to have yggradsil.

asciilifeform: ( phf -- did not live long enuff to attempt this )

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i.e. whole universe in one vtree ? iirc this was discussed even in '15. idea theoretically appealing, but i suspect in practice would break backs. picture if any time you published, had to 1st say 'pause' to 900 folx, or get 'orphaned'.

asciilifeform: 1990s versionatrons (e.g. 'cvs' if you recall) actually worked like this.

diana_coman: asciilifeform: interconnected/linked does not mean at all pause to everyone; but there's no imminent danger of that so not much point worrying about it now.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: well, 'pause publication' rather than 'pause all work'. but afaik yes it would, work rather like btc chain.

asciilifeform: if you were to have per-project rather than global manifest , tho, then -- not.

asciilifeform: if folx willing to put up with having to regrind patch 3+ times -- as the folx who helped to fix e.g. asciilifeform's logger were -- then can do just about anyffin w/ v as-is. even 'whole universe' tree.

asciilifeform admires the pain tolerance of the folx who used, use, v. when i created it, half-expected that it'd collect dust, that folx would chicken out.

asciilifeform brb,tea

asciilifeform: unrelatedly: folx interested in smmism (smm was how boobytraps were often implemented prior to proper fritzchip) will find that it is detailed in amd opteron datashit; and that you can singlestep smm handler w/ 'sage' probe on irons where there is connector for same.

snsabot: (trilema) 2019-12-06 dorion_road: In my brush up of, now wtf again is SMM ? this morning, I referred to an old article by robert. r. collins on the topic. He's new to me, but CV looks impressive, anyone here come across him ?

asciilifeform: arguably not so interesting given as 'coreboot' traditionally has simply 'ret' in its smm handler; and afaik on all opterons where can connect 'sage', can emplace 'coreboot' in place of heathen bios.

asciilifeform: smm was the orig. 'ring -1' on x86, introduced by intel in 486. worx like ordinary nonmaskable interrupt, but registers saved to dedicated on-chip sram, rather than to where stack points.

asciilifeform: 1990s lappies, e.g. 'toshiba libretto', that had bios-powered 'suspend to disk', usually implemented via smm.

asciilifeform: whole point was to ~not~ interact with os (would often have e.g. battery handler in there, which had to run even if winblowz has crashed etc)

asciilifeform vaguely suspects that smmism was the 1st Officially nsa-ordered annex to pc arch. was ideal for undetectable boobytrap , i.e. entirely undetectable and unmodifiable from os, provided victim did not have a hardware debug probe (for intel boxes, was 100k$+ item that plugged under cpu, cable as thick as man's arm )

asciilifeform: smm handler lived in ram segment that , once 'lock bit' in bios was set, could be neither read nor written, incl. from ring0 .

asciilifeform: in the 'transistor-impoverished' era before they could put dedicated spy core in cpu proper -- was 'state of art' re snoopware.

asciilifeform at one time, decade+ ago, tried to implement an 'above os' debugger thing as a smm extension. but broke teeth, q of 'how to trigger' proved gnarly, there's no 'fire smm' button handily provided on any known mobo, the trigger is usually wired to southbridge directly

asciilifeform: 2 basic ways to make smm extension on heathen bioses -- 1) patch the bios and reflash 2) 'option rom's on pci cards. raid controllers at one time used the 2nd variant.

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/12/oracle-sues-us-department-of-labor-over-existence-of-administrative-courts/ << Qntra -- Oracle Sues US Department Of Labor Over Existence Of "Administrative Courts"

shinohai: ^Srry for join/partage, working on "translate" module and bot refused to rehash.

shinohai: ./translate ru en С Днем рожденья!

btcinfobot: Happy Birthday!