feedbot: http://younghands.club/2020/03/25/jfw-review-march-9-22-2020-part-1/ << Young Hands Club -- JFW review, March 9 - 22 2020, part 1
jfw: and otherwise, I've got a "better late than never, right?" recipe cooking for keccak-V on Gales.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trinque/2020-03-24#1000361 - trinque, do you mean that you plan to head an OS project?
ossabot: (trinque) 2020-03-24 trinque: hey gents, lets hold any further OS discussion here, if any further OS discussion shall be had.
diana_coman: mike_c I've set the flags so ChanServ voices you automatically on join; come in whenever convenient for any talk.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: Eulora is on, has been on, will be on. What was/is the question?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-25 03:49:15 jfw: and otherwise, I've got a "better late than never, right?" recipe cooking for keccak-V on Gales.
diana_coman: mike_c the reason why "it has to be so hard to talk" is that a. idiots b. no infrastructure because nobody left to own it.
diana_coman: mike_c and no, it's actually not hard at all - you can just pm me and ask, not like I don't answer people now or something.
diana_coman: and now it even occured to me that #eulora is also on and moreover it has no voice restriction and I'm there too and it's supposedly more appropriate for talks about eulora etc; so uhm, how is it "hard" to talk on irc again?
trinque: diana_coman: I just put a lot of work into said infrastructure based upon http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trinque/2020-03-15#1000239
ossabot: (trinque) 2020-03-15 diana_coman: trinque: meant to say: yes please, I want deedbot with the wot centered on channel owner.
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-25#1022818 << I want to resolve the busybox-uber-alles question, and then proceed as we were.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-25 05:10:31 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trinque/2020-03-24#1000361 - trinque, do you mean that you plan to head an OS project?
trinque: really don't care if it's called gales or what, so long as it's ideologically consistent
diana_coman: trinque: all right; I'll take your word for it then and therefore subscribe to your deedbot service; can it be made so that it allows self-voice in #ossasepia to those in my L1 with ratings > 2?
diana_coman: trinque: the above re deedbot; re OS, I think it's not even the busybox-uber-alles the first question to sort out, but a much more fundamental one.
diana_coman: and no, it's not about "what it's called" but about who actually owns it; just like with the infrastructure really.
diana_coman: trinque: also, re subscribe, please invoice for 1 year, don't really want to look at it every month.
diana_coman: trinque: re "put a lot of work into", do note that in itself that doesn't mean that there IS infrastructure; hence my above "there isn't because nobody left to own it" + "I'll take your word for it" (that you mean to own it, not just "put a lot of work into it")
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: It's about the wiki mike_c is still hosting
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: so hopefully he comes in and asks a question, so I can ...answer it, ok?
diana_coman: I have no idea what about that wiki.
BingoBoingo: ok
mike_c: hey diana_coman
lobbesbot: mike_c: Sent 14 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, and 51 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> Your are cordially invited to GPGgram details of your situation to me or come into #agriculturalsupremacy and get me up to speed on your situation in a logged channel.
lobbesbot: mike_c: Sent 14 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, and 51 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> This is a high risk case, and it presents an especially high danger for anyone arguing it on your behalf. My greatest asset is my WoT position, and should I argue your case and recover the coin... The argument that will have won your coin will present a risk to my WoT position if it is later found to be bad precedent.
lobbesbot: mike_c: Sent 14 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, and 50 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> I am willing to argue your case. Without your providing more details the cost structure is as follows: 35 BTC up front, 10 BTC to be refunded if my argument on your behalf loses. The best way for you to start negotiating this price downward is starting a conversation about the case in #agriculturalsupremacy
lobbesbot: mike_c: Sent 14 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, and 20 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> Since the discussion appears ready [http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-17#1955528] [to happen sooner rather than later] I give you the option of sending 35BTC to 15eVXAW7k8uKc5moDFUSc9Y3jmHFAenNXo as a retainer. As it is 2019 I'll assume 35 BTC arriving at the address is yours and not someone else's misfire.
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-12-17 mp_en_viaje: so... i think it's high time we have a conversation about it, and a l1 consultus on the topic, and so forth. what, exactly, is the negrated to get from the republic ? and why ? and wherefore ?
lobbesbot: mike_c: Sent 13 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, and 37 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> Here's the strategy and why it is your best shot at recovering your coin http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=7sEi
lobbesbot: mike_c: Sent 13 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, and 53 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-23#1955992 and http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=jB2s
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-12-23 BingoBoingo: !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=jB2s
lobbesbot: mike_c: Sent 13 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, and 13 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-23#1956002
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-12-23 BingoBoingo: !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=LM6J
mike_c: the question is whether you care if the wiki at eulorum.org continues to exist
mike_c: from reading the logs, it sounds like no, so I'll just turn it off.
diana_coman: mike_c lol, that was quick fire, wasn't it? The eulorum.org wiki was/is your interest and project so not sure I follow there your reasoning on it. Anyways, to put it plainly: I'd certainly like it if there was someone who finds it useful to run a Eulora wiki; this does not mean that I'm going to rescue or run any/every wiki myself, so no, it's not a matter of me "caring". I've carried a child to term and many other things too, ...
diana_coman: ... certainly, but websites are not on my list for that sort of thing, no.
diana_coman: hoefully the caring/carrying link is clear enough above for the logs too.
diana_coman: I must add that I find the whole thing overall rather weird; if one wants to shut down a site they run, I could see it as a courtesy to ask people if they want perhaps a dump/mirror and/or the domain, sure; but I haven't seen such question and the "do you care" question is quite a different sort of thing.
diana_coman: that being said, I expect anyone who cared indeed, already made their own mirrors of the content; and if they didn't, perhaps they'll learn from it and make it next time they find something they care about.
mike_c: You seem sensitive to my use of the word "care" and to be taking offense at a simple question. Given your investment in the project, I didn't want to shutter it if you did want to keep it going.
mike_c: I certainly don't care if you have no interest it. it's not my baby, I just helped get it stood up many years ago.
mike_c: In any case, I put a shutdown notice up and will close it in a few months.
diana_coman: mike_c no offense taken at all, no worries there; I suppose we can chuck it to some miscommunication (and it's possibly not surprising given that it's for some reason not happening as a conversation at all but anyways).
diana_coman: mike_c out of curiosity if you don't mind me asking - why now rather than at ~any other point in those many past years? since you say you never really had interest in it, it was just that you helped get it stood up at some point and nothing more.
diana_coman: trinque: I'd appreciate your answer re deedbot question and perhaps a talk re OS because it seems to me, upon re-reading your earlier statement that we are not quite on the same page there.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-25 10:23:54 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-25#1022818 << I want to resolve the busybox-uber-alles question, and then proceed as we were.
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-25#1022832 << this can be done, but is a divergence from the old #t model, where L2 can self-voice. what I can do is generalize, such that there are params per-channel for the threshold for l1 and l2, which in your case sounds like it'd be (2, null)
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-25 11:11:16 diana_coman: trinque: all right; I'll take your word for it then and therefore subscribe to your deedbot service; can it be made so that it allows self-voice in #ossasepia to those in my L1 with ratings > 2?
diana_coman: trinque: was it meant to self-voice even with a rating of 1?
diana_coman: I somehow recall there was a threshold higher than 0 really, uhm.
trinque: what I'm trying to clarify is if you want your l2 able to self-voice
trinque: in #t they could.
trinque: but what I propose above will let you make this decision however you like
trinque: upstack, yes, I own deedbot and will continue to behave as though I do.
trinque: per my previously expressed definition of ownership.
trinque: regarding the OS, I do not have the capacity to own such a thing at the level of commitment I can give the bot, which is to say I'm not prepared to support customers/users on such a project.
trinque: I understood dorion and jfw to be the ones doing that, actually.
trinque: I am still prepared to answer their questions, and when work with deedbot is parked, to complete the series.
trinque: I agree that we all need shared priors before any of this is worthwhile, which is why I'm around to discuss, hoping to achieve taht.
trinque: *that
diana_coman: trinque: indeed re OS but the change of context with TMSR closure means that they have to support indeed fully the OS if they find a space & resources for it
trinque: I don't see that TMSR was doing much to support it before, was it?
diana_coman: so not quite the same way in the sense that some important support did fall out from under the project
diana_coman: hm, you don't?
trinque: some test builds or w/e, but I didn't get much lift out of anyone on cuntoo other than that.
trinque: ftr I am banging on about busybox because I firmly believe we can achieve something self-hosting and usable with available hands, provided we are draconian about complexity-creep
diana_coman: trinque: ah, I had in mind the more important support of being able to ask for resources that would have been available once a clear plan of attracting contributors or the like was in place, for instance; also, quite some expertise re management and so on; no, I don't mean "more people coding" or the like
trinque: I recall trying to offer management advice to pizarro and it was like pissing in the wind
diana_coman: trinque: let's sort out re deedbot first as it's possibly faster to sort out
trinque: but I'm still chapped about all that.
trinque: sure
diana_coman: trinque: I can't seem to recall exactly or find that previous def of ownership you referenced; would you mind terribly linking it for me or stating it again?
diana_coman: uh, now I see why it didn't come to mind, hm; (and huh, do you prefer that old selection mechanism despite its breakage across browsers?)
trinque: nope, just prefer to ration my work, and still don't know where the source of truth is for wp patches.
trinque: I am also running on a mpwp patched to run on a php not riddled with public security holes.
diana_coman: trinque: the disconnect here is that your definition of ownership seems focused on tool handling basically.
trinque: that dead nazi really made an impact on me, I guess
trinque clears his throat
trinque: what do you see missing?
diana_coman: lol? I'm missing your reference there
trinque: heidegger was a nazi-era german
diana_coman: ah, true (not the only one!!) lolz
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-01#1958702 - thread which is about as clear as it'll get on where & why for the selection patch
ossabot: (trilema) 2020-03-01 mp_en_viaje: i practically have the choice of either publishing a screamingly offensive non-patch in november of 2019, or else wait until there's a place to meaningfully add it as a patch ; which necessarily is stalled on "what the fuck is the correct cut for themes, cuz it seems evident it isn't what's now done", which in turn rests on a half dozen or so more nodes that are all further away from what is actually being worked now.
trinque: yeah what I proposed is putting it in one of the funcs called by all themes, like "getHeader" or w/e it is
diana_coman: trinque: what I see missing there is... hm, governance I suppose, as opposed to technology; (so hm, I guess I'm setting the French against the German here)
trinque: it's in there, just subtle maybe.
trinque: I own my hand like I own deedbot. I'm cutting off neither.
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-02#1958759 - the problem with get_header if I parsed correctly, though I haven't checked the code.
ossabot: (trilema) 2020-03-02 mp_en_viaje: trinque, the problem with your proposal is that the article isn't yet loaded at that point.
diana_coman: trinque: sure; but unlike your own hand, deedbot can be grown and has a whole context of operation that you may or may not aim to make your turf as well, no matter how small the steps.
trinque: jfw: there are ways in JS to trap "page is fully loaded" quite easily
trinque: diana_coman: it'd be helpful for you to share your vision there.
trinque: jfw: or obviously, just stick in getFooter instead
diana_coman: anyways, as I already said, given your previous track record of operating deedbot, I'm totally fine to take your word for it that indeed, you plan to run it as a service and own it as such.
diana_coman: trinque: helpful for me?
trinque: I mean what expansion do you see as obvious and needed, if any
trinque: or do you mean maintaining present context, or what?
diana_coman: trinque: the whole point of owning something is that the *owner* sees and decides on those...
trinque: listen, you alluded to some, and I was just asking what those were.
trinque: as for what I see, the thing is going through a vast decrufting, and integration with the stuff running wot.deedbot.org
diana_coman: trinque: lol, so ask as such then, because if you go about it in roundabout ways, I won't get it, no.
trinque: I fucked myself with the microservices approach and ended up with way too much overhead, blocked all sorts of improvements.
trinque: tone is hard in text, anyway.
trinque: but yes, I include "continue to maintain and improve" in ownership just like a garden, or my toenails
diana_coman: well, I had no idea re the above, for starters; and yes, I am aware that I don't know the details, hence why I don't go about with "proposals" because wtf proposals like this from outside
trinque: it was just a matter of respect for your opinion, anyway I get it.
diana_coman: trinque: appreciated then (and honestly, I didn't get it earlier; perhaps I'm tired today too but it is what it is)
diana_coman: trinque: re l2 and deviations, I went and checked again the ref and I don't see how /where I deviate from it really
diana_coman: it's not saying "rated > 0"
diana_coman: the channel's l1 is owner's rated 9 even (iirc this was lowered on consideration/discussion) and this is what I said I thought to be basically 3 or above; I'm fine with various numbers between 3 and 9 really
diana_coman: then l2 is nicks rated by l1 as 2 or above and no negatives - that again is fine with me, as stated there
diana_coman: basically - I'm fine if you set some numbers but please set them to something that allows me to rate newcomers without having to hand them the full keys to the channel; does this make sense?
trinque: totally makes sense, we were talking past one-another before.
trinque: let me work an example to make sure.
diana_coman listens
trinque: lets say you rate jfw 3, and he rates jfws_droog 2. jfws_droog can self-voice.
diana_coman: fine with me
trinque: great, and it's reasonable enough I think it should not be configurable for now.
trinque: I'll build that in this weekend.
diana_coman: trinque: ok, then ping me on it once it's all available; is 1 year fine?
trinque: yep, works.
diana_coman: k, so that's hopefully cleared up; back to the OS thread, let me fish it out
jfw: I'll wrap up about WP patches: I can't say who's the source of truth, perhaps billymg but MP spoke to him about the futility of continuing that role.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-25#1022887 - you know, I actually *also* remember this and fwiw *I'm* still annoyed that happened as it did; what can I say, there are things that annoy me even to just witness;
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-25 16:56:24 trinque: I recall trying to offer management advice to pizarro and it was like pissing in the wind
diana_coman: jfw: well, it comes back to my earlier nobody left to own it
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-25 05:18:53 diana_coman: mike_c the reason why "it has to be so hard to talk" is that a. idiots b. no infrastructure because nobody left to own it.
jfw: trinque: if you wrote a patch to do server-side selection outside the theme, I would certainly test & use it, though would be low priority atm. I'd quite like to get my own deployment into something that can press from vpatches rather than snapshot of php files.
trinque: people are invited to react to futility however they like
trinque: staying alive is also futile
trinque: diana_coman: I was fucking infuriated.
trinque: but anyhow, yes.
diana_coman: trinque: that being said re the experience with pizarro, I don't think it's really sane to take experiences from one context to another quite that directly/fully
diana_coman: basically dorion and jfw have nothing to do with your experience with pizarro, after all.
diana_coman: anyways, regardless of that even, the fact of the matter is that the OS can't currently just be considered "as it was"
trinque: agree with both.
trinque: yet one has to learn, and not tread the same ground "differently"
trinque: I think you just said the same thing.
diana_coman: and the way I see it, they first have quite some work to do to get jwrd in a position to push a whole OS, regardless of what that is
jfw: ^ agree 100%.
dorion: diana_coman I agree as well.
diana_coman: basically whether there will be an OS or not depends on whether there is anyone capable to head it and the fact that currently the only "volunteer" (by virtue of hm, not having stepped back rather than anything else) is dorion doesn't mean that he *has no choice* in the matter, wtf
trinque: maybe we let things stabilize a bit.
trinque: I am very glad to see the capacity of jwrd being considered.
trinque: I would also be immensely glad to see it increased to the scope of an OS.
jfw: I know I have some outstanding questions to dig on such as "where exactly did bb ash not work" that I just can't get to right now. At the same time, it would help to get answers to some I asked such as what version of busybox should we be looking at / why
diana_coman: ie if he heads it, then a. he gets to decide what & when & where & with whom should move, for the very good reason that he would have also the whole plan and reason why for all of that b. he is not going to go around having conversations wherever because that's not going to be of much help moving things either
diana_coman: trinque: basically that's why I was surprised earlier and asked if you planned to head an OS effort - because the moment you ask for future conversations on the OS to happen in your chan, I gather you want to head it; I don't quite get how/why it's better otherwise to have them there.
trinque: there's an it I've got on my desk, and an it they've got on theirs. not clear right now if/how they merge.
diana_coman: trinque: is the it on your desk cuntoo? I know the it on their desk (gales) and I have it installed on a laptop here; I have cuntoo installed on a box too; I don't have/know of anything else though so can't comment at all on that sort of "it"
trinque: nah, cuntoo is trash due to the gentoo lineage.
trinque: I've got pieces of a busybox item, not fit for publishing yet.
trinque: they are more or less at the same level the blog series is at.
diana_coman: trinque: you see, this is seriously a sort of thing I don't quite get; on one hand you say - understandably - that you don't want to put effort into something that isn't going anywhere; fine, I agree; on the other hand and at the same time, you do put effort into all sorts that remain then - or so it seems - hanging in various stages
trinque: not all my life is up for review.
diana_coman: I can't make any sense of this
diana_coman: trinque: sure, not asking for that sort of review either, not at all.
trinque: are you asking what motivates me, what?
diana_coman: trinque: no
trinque: not following.
diana_coman: trinque: seriously, I'm not even asking for anything (I meant it earlier that I'm done asking); I just want to make something clear: either there's something concrete published and *then* it can be discussed or there isn't and then there is nothing to discuss; does this make sense?
trinque: I took it that the gents wanted me consulting with them on their project.
trinque: I never stopped the project I began when mp asked me.
diana_coman: my observation above was that from where I see it, if you put in some work (be it notes /drafts stages), then it's of most benefit to you to finish them and publish them, regardless of anything else; apparently you take a different view on this though and ok, it's your choice, no problem for me.
trinque: I kill all kinds of babies that never leave the house.
trinque: I will consider going forward whether this is useful.
diana_coman: trinque: I think everyone clearly stated they found your series (hence your consulting on the topic) very useful indeed and they had indeed no reason to believe that the series will not proceed as you said initially yourself it would; that being said, it's your series and your choice, ofc, what.
trinque: recall I was fired from the thing.
trinque: whatever you want to call it.
diana_coman: trinque: hm?
trinque: mp kicked me off the OS thing as I was making preparations, and apparently too slowly.
dorion: trinque, I asked you to join the conversation because you had said you were working on busybox+kernel distro and we're working on pretty much the same, so why not work together ?
trinque: dorion: no argument to the contrary.
trinque: in fact I stepped away entirely and said have at it, and this also pissed off mp.
trinque: I am now putting together the pieces, in order, as I can.
trinque: dorion: I would love to see something viable.
diana_coman: trinque: MP kicked you off the OS thing because nobody could even tell wtf you were doing or even IF you were doing anything; and honestly, I couldn't have said what you were doing or if indeed anything related to the os.
trinque: the idea of preparing such a thing in even a quarter is absurd, but lets leave it.
diana_coman: trinque: the idea of communicating what you plan to do - is that absurd too?
diana_coman: this reminds me way too much of this: http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/06/its-only-words-and-assumptions-and-priorities-and-ouch/
trinque: I really dislike it when someone runs ahead of me and speaks for me.
diana_coman: trinque: where did that happen?
trinque: I consider myself a pretty precise communicator, but perhaps it only appears that way from in here.
dorion: trinque, the plan right now is to use gales to make jwrd viable. slowly think about how gales can be terraformed to be Vtronic.
trinque: diana_coman: plans grade into hubris, and it's not always clear where hubris overtakes.
diana_coman: trinque: I'm afraid it is indeed the case that I don't see that precise communicator from here.
trinque: I do not recall saying this makes planning pointless.
trinque: at the time under discussion, I was planning, and yes not publishing a plan to plan, which seems bureaucratic as all hell.
diana_coman: I didn't say you claimed that, no; all I said was that I had no idea of even what your plans were - or indeed if you had any plans at all; understand that silence is just ??? from the other side, ie it can be *anything*.
trinque: in late december I sustained a severe concussion, and didn't bring it up, because the last person to get injured on the job was phf, who was summarily dismissed.
diana_coman: no, not a plan to plan; but a short talk in chan eg "I'm thinking of doing this, any comments/ideas"? this sort of thing
diana_coman: dunno why it has to go like this from one extreme to another
diana_coman: trinque: do you seriously think the reason was the fact that he got injured?
trinque: I understood this to be the reason he was afk for a while.
diana_coman: but you know, funnily enough the real trouble there was *still communication* (lack of it), not the injury itself; ugh.
trinque: injury could've precluded it.
trinque: but regardless I see the point you are making.
diana_coman: I think it was even said explicitly that communication as short as "guys, my man is injured" from any connected party would have served amply
trinque: anyhow, in january I was pretty damned injured, and there were subsequent legal matters to attend to, as it was not officer clint eastwood who arrived to buy me a beer for defending myself.
diana_coman: anyways, hopefully now some things at least cleared up and won't get clogged back again.
trinque: sure.
trinque: (incidentally pretty fucking sad for texas)
diana_coman admits to be still rather baffled at the uncovered amount of misunderstanding/incompatibility in #t and all that.
diana_coman: anyways; re the OS, hopefully the current status is a bit more clear to, ie not just "moving as it were" and certainly not any priority right now
trinque: totally on the same page there.
trinque: and I won't take it as a reason not to write when I can.
diana_coman: cool then; glad to hear it on both counts.
diana_coman will be back tomorrow.