Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

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adlai: yaknow, the analogy of "MIDI for language" captures exactly what I find endlessly irksome about your projects.
adlai: don't get me wrong, I do not intend to discourage you. I have a healthy respect for 'diversity', as described in the article linked here, so I recognize that it's important for others to also work on things that don't align perfectly with my preferences.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-19 14:45:22 asciilifeform: to revisit upstack thread, before it is lost in digression : what asciilifeform , in the 'if wishes were horses' sense, would ideally be up to, is running a 'Klein type-1 organization'. but impossible w/ avail. resources. so , experimenting with what is possible.
adlai: however, MIDI encoding loses so much nuance.
verisimilitude: This was asciilifeform's analogy, know.
verisimilitude: Compare it to sheet music instead of a recording, say.
crtdaydreams: er using keccak v off diana_coman's site and patching for vtools doesn't work, and v itself "cannot find vpatch _____ in /home/$USER/patches"
crtdaydreams: dunno if outdated, broken or wat
crtdaydreams: patch is there and errythin
asciilifeform was gonna link crtdaydreams to phf's orig. vtools, which asciilifeform uses, but phf's www appears to be down?
asciilifeform: meanwhile will link to shinohai's alt-vtron.
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $39818.22
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 15 nodes...
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=733026
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.113s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=733026
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.152s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=733026 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=733026
watchglass: : Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=733026
watchglass: : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=733026 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.213s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=733026
watchglass: : Alive: (0.278s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=733026 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.259s) V=88888 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=733026
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.328s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=733026
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.378s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732636
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.591s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=733026
watchglass: : Alive: (0.732s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=485763 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.586s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=733026
watchglass: : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
phf: << what ip was supposed to be that, is that btcbase or the blog?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-22 11:02:33 asciilifeform: was gonna link crtdaydreams to phf's orig. vtools, which asciilifeform uses, but phf's www appears to be down?
asciilifeform: phf: blog
phf: ah, yeah.. it goes down from time to time and i havne't figured it out yet: it's an actual bug in openbsd's httpd
phf: some combination of fastcgi pass through and http authorization sections result in a heizenbug
phf: also restarted..
phf: i could also do an auto restart :> but i think this way i'll remember to look at the root cause at some point
asciilifeform: hm, still loox dead
asciilifeform: phf: interesting bug, maybe exploitable..?
phf: asciilifeform:, new ip also
asciilifeform fixed link to phf on own www to point to above
phf: i should probably post the rename patches, for interested parties
asciilifeform would read
asciilifeform: phf: iirc the rename hack makes for patches that can no longer be applied by hand (patch -p0 < foo... ) tho
phf: yes, but that's something that should've been brought up before i spent significant amount of time hacking on it!
phf: you had that hack to pack everything into a container, then vdiff, but that didn't catch on either
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-10-06 phf: format breaks only in a sense that gnu patch won't press it. current vpatches that don't delete/rename (since the feature is not there) will never the less work with any future changes to vtools
asciilifeform: abstracted over the files/dirs aspect.
asciilifeform: would've handily solved the rename/move thing, too. but at that pt was tall order, to convince folx to switch formats.
phf: in some sense it's not much of an improvement over "patch -p0" not working, since now still need non-stock tool
asciilifeform: there yes, defo
phf: one thing about vtools, i discovered that gnat has code formatting tool, which produces better result than janky emacs indent. i kind of want to regrind vtools for it, but will obviously also break sigs from people who are no longer with us
asciilifeform: a reindent patch aint so hard to read imho
asciilifeform: (potentially could even bake a mechanical litmus for 'this patch only reindent?')
asciilifeform: .. or simply compare bins locally (if only reindent, will be ==)
phf: just wire gnatpp directly into vtools, based on extension. fuck my shit up, fam
phf: "what kind of man is vtools man? you know him by his pristine indented ada code."
asciilifeform has various arguably nonstandard formatting in certain proggies, but afaik no unusual indentation per se
asciilifeform: at least not in 0th column, that is
phf: asciilifeform: i mostly stopped using emacs (i boot it almost entirely unconfigured to slime) so i started to appreciate standard indent tools for specific languages
asciilifeform: phf: what were you using in place of emacs ? (or simply meant stopped editing text?)
phf: asciilifeform: really context dependent, but i write text with nvi or ed
asciilifeform: phf: not yet 'with telegraph key' but still sportsmanlike, a++
phf: there's that naggum rant against perl approach (i think it's the one where the metaphor is either hacking a road through woods, instead of taking a proper road, because the tool is really good at hacking roads, or smth), and i sort of realized that emacs is exactly perl approach by mass now
phf: ty
phf: if could somehow reduce the surface to emacs 19, or cmucl's hemlock, but otherwise you have all this hidden state, that kicks in on triggers, and fucks your life up.
phf: each new upgrade brings creative modernizations and new dwim behaviors, and deprications, which all somehow not work /quite/ right
asciilifeform: imho 19 'peak emacs'
phf: missing unicode though, even if you were to figure out how to build it on a present day linux
phf: same issue with e.g. hemlock
asciilifeform not tried the latter
phf: until cmucl stopped building on all my systems without some major porting effort i used hemlock as a kind of poor man's lisp machine substrate
phf: it had some neat integration features, like buffer's with gray stream interfaces: (format buffer "...") just worked™
asciilifeform: phf: how did it compare to e.g. 'climacs' ?
phf: it wasn't written by autists :D
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-12-29 asciilifeform: sbcl is a pretty interesting example of one of those spiked pits, like e.g. gcc -- items to which there is no practical alternative except 'throw away the comp and build log cabin'. but asciilifeform does not have phf's deep historical view of sbcl/cmucl ; asciilifeform arrived into the spiked pit directly
asciilifeform: from phf's historical descriptions, sounds interesting and possibly worth reviving tho
asciilifeform: ( in light of e.g. )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-10-08 phf: fwiw all our production lisp runs on sbcl, including btcbase. as much as i'm pimping cmucl, it's not "modern" enough to host a website on unix. i still think it's a better target for a hypothetical on the iron common lisp
asciilifeform had similar interest in 'kyoto commonlisp' but not got far in
phf: cmucl is also significantly scarred, but stills retains much of "lisp machine nature"
phf: honestly this is of historical interest mostly, requires much indepth study of lisp lore, to recognize what was there before the micro people fucked things up, and then having done that, does one still have time to revive it
asciilifeform: hm scarred in what way ?
phf: asciilifeform: opportunistic decisions for the sake of speed or convenience or similar at the expense of adherence to original architectural blueprints
asciilifeform encourages phf to post a bit re subj, atm this is squarely 'buried in the sands' from archaological pov
asciilifeform: *archaeological
asciilifeform found a few bits in old l0gz
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-02-25 phf: i kind of look at it like version 0.5.3. there's barely any development on it, very little actively harmful code, if you don't count asdf 3.* in contribs. it works, it can be studied and improved upon, as it stands it's utterly ignored by the cool kids. there are also of course technical merits, the compiler is conceptually identical and on average almost as good (there were many micro optimizations done by sbcl team, but even they are
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-06-23 phf: well, native threads were added to sbcl at the expense of good gc
phf: this is before i got court marshaled for unstable log due to cmucl issues :>
asciilifeform: asciilifeform to this day a bit puzzled wai the heavier, moar complicated 'modernized' sbcl was stable, but the lighter/moar classic, 'carburetted' cmucl (as i understand) suffered hard crashes
asciilifeform: goes rather against asciilifeform's usual intuition.
phf: asciilifeform: sharp edges
phf: they need to be worked around and smoothed
asciilifeform pictures cmucl as sumthing like 'trb' in re sbcl's 'prb'
phf: e.g. cmucl friendly web server, araneida, is a collection of hacks more so than a complete software package. i would often come acros snippets posted to forums where some problem was worked around, but for whatever reason never upstreamed.
asciilifeform: phf: iirc the crashes were in the runtime per se (i.e. segfault) neh? rather than bug in www lib
phf: no, was mostly issue with threads
phf: or rather greenlets
phf: to make things work, i need to stuff greenlet yields in a handful of known long running processes (like e.g. search)
asciilifeform: a, so if asciilifeform correctly understands, had to resort in fact to running unthreadsafe coad in threads, to make wwwism go ?
phf: no no, you know how greenlets work? "thread" is really just a non-interruptable code, which runs until you either explicitly yield, the code terminates, or you sit on an io
asciilifeform: 'cooperative multiprocess' aha
phf: if you e.g. have a process that takes 3s to run, until yield, means that /nothing/ else works during these 3s. if you have a process that takes 20s to run, then your system starts time outing left and right
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-09-25 12:57:05 asciilifeform: whaack: this happens on account of the asinine pseudo-multithreading in trb. i.e. noad accepts connection, but does not answer commands, when verifying a block
asciilifeform: ( nuffin 'green' about it, per se, is simply consequence of conventional threading + over9000 locks in there )
phf: well threads work by system level preemption, context switch can happen on instruction, etc. in trb's case the switch happens, there's just nothing to run because everyone's sitting on locks
asciilifeform: simply couldn't resist pointing out how author simulated absence of preemption
phf: btcbase briefly ran on licensed acl :>
asciilifeform: phf: how did that go ?
asciilifeform: ( or was in prototype stage ? )
asciilifeform: ( speaking of commercial lisps, hey thimbronion , didja ever get that 'lispworks' ? )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-18 13:54:46 thimbronion: I'm just gonna try out LispWorks and see how well debugging multiple processes works. Could come in very hande for pest dev.
phf: it was the best experience, as always with acl, tight memory usage, lots of useful analysis tools, but i didn't want to ugh use a tool provisioned under a nice fintech contract in association with a project that had a lot of things to say on many subjects :>
phf: acl lets you say a lot of things about how the objects should be allocated, and retained, also the annotation system gives you much better integrated tight guarantees. i don't know why but sbcl's optimization techniques still feel like magic often times, and then they fall apart when inputs change. acl expects your commands to be law, and then does runtime checks on boundaries from (speed)(debug) levels
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I did
asciilifeform: thimbronion: aah? had chance to try ?
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I have barely played with it as of yet.
phf: there's tons of neat "low level" features. like you can for example say that all the log messages (even though they are fields on structs in my case) should live in the same region, not require gc-ing, should be placed continously by some rule, without dropping down to ffi. that obv makes knuth-morris-pratt search work much better (~~1-2 second faster on eqv machine/code vs sbcl) due to locality
asciilifeform: phf: many yrs ago i requisitioned acl ( in same shop where got the bolix... ) but shamefully must admit never had chance to properly put to use.
phf: but also presumably the 500mb log messages being eliminated from gc space also makes things faster during gc phase..
asciilifeform: phf: pretty interesting optimizations; very much suggestive of serious use in 'real life' industry
asciilifeform: phf: didja end up buying own acl / support service etc ?
asciilifeform: ( subj, for log readers )
shinohai: Ukraine yesterday: "We need 7 billion dollars monthly to rebuild." Today: "Bitcoin is banned, lol."
shinohai: << I just shamelessly code-stole from esthlos and polished for own toolbox, was actually gonna publish new patch so it works on ecl soon.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-22 11:06:23 asciilifeform: meanwhile will link to shinohai's alt-vtron.
asciilifeform not tried subj, but iirc shinohai had it working
asciilifeform: shinohai: lulzy re ukrs, not so long ago they were begging for btc donations among all else
shinohai: Worx fine for me, but naturally "your experience may vary" (tm)
shinohai: asciilifeform: yup, likely all donations in "hosted wallets" so means of production now seized.
shinohai: "Yo dawg, I heard you like dekulakization ......"
asciilifeform: shinohai: through asciilifeform's telescope loox moar like they got call from reich, 'hey yer pushing up exch rate, wtf'
shinohai: Probably right since they've spooled up the printing press at 10x speeds for war effort.
verisimilitude: I truly hate how e-mail is being destroyed by large corporations, because destruction is all they truly do.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: looong ago destroyed
asciilifeform: ( try sending from own hosted smtp box to just about anywhere in reich )
verisimilitude: They see some public good, and decide they'd rather force everyone else to suffer by destroying it, purely for their benefit.
asciilifeform: silently goes to /dev/null
verisimilitude: Oh, not even that, asciilifeform.
verisimilitude: Even the smaller large hosts are getting blocked; it doesn't matter.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the process whereby email was murdered is well-documented (with possible exception of how the perps in fact ~created~ the spam problem which 'justified' the later 'embrace & extinguish' )
verisimilitude: I like how the proof of work method never took off.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: one time asciilifeform witnessed, in commercial shop, microshit's email service swallow mail from ~microshit itself~
verisimilitude: ``Noooooooooooo!!!!! Use reputation instead or else we can't send our spam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!''
asciilifeform: naturally
verisimilitude: My personal e-mail server works fine enough; I don't use it much.
asciilifeform: worx so long as not need to send, lol
verisimilitude: A lot of attractive women want to meet me, for some reason.
asciilifeform: princes -- need ransoming, etc
verisimilitude: Still, occasionally, I get to send an e-mail to a human who also hosts his, and it's pleasant.
asciilifeform: pleasant except for the part where you gotta dig through over9000 'princes' ea. morning
verisimilitude: I solve that by checking for e-mail less than once a week.
asciilifeform: then simply over9000 x 7 1/wk lol
verisimilitude: It sucks how IRC still works the best for some things.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: pestnet worx pretty well atm, on thimbronion's proggy
verisimilitude: I look forward to using my Pest, if I can help it, but it will have a Spartan interface.
asciilifeform: 'spartan spreaks with his sword!'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: *speaks
verisimilitude: It almost hurts, when an interface flaw about which I'd thought and prevented occurs in something with much more programmers working on it.
verisimilitude: Of course, I did notice it requires a holistic approach to prevent.
verisimilitude: Perhaps I'd be more humble, if more programmers weren't determined to prove their lack of worth.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: most commercial proggies yer likely to encounter or hear about are braindamaged for economically fundamental reasons
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-12 13:04:27 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: it long ago went from 'mistake, like leaded petrol' to deliberate 'job-creating tech' fraud.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-22 14:02:09 verisimilitude: It sucks how IRC still works the best for some things.
asciilifeform: !q uptime
dulapbot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 310d 15h 20m
asciilifeform even if 0 upstream headaches, is gonna have to clean the fans or sumsuch in it eventually. was at one pt gonna set up an offsite spare, but imho at this pt will say 'pestnet is the spare!'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-01 16:10:27 asciilifeform: ... for current shitpnoje wireless , is a visible to naked eye 'lolno'. but interestingly enuff asciilifeform's dc in fact delivered 'five nines' service in 2021. i.e. <6min of dead time in yr
verisimilitude: Ted Kaczynski never had to deal with this.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: iirc he had to go to town for matches & ammo. so, in a way, did
verisimilitude: I meant shitty programs specifically.
verisimilitude: How many people need to die before shitty software won't be used in heart monitors and the like?
verisimilitude: People don't understand the value of analog devices. Consider a mirror with a camera inside of it. They need to be sat down and told how the mirror is like a computer, but the universe does it in its own little code.
verisimilitude: The mirror with a camera inside of it is stupid, to clarify.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: aaapparently is considered a-ok for e.g. boeing's firmware to divide by 0
asciilifeform: so wainot, then, erryone else.
asciilifeform: ( picture, e.g., what architecture might've been like w/out hammurabi et al )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-09 13:18:25 asciilifeform: mats: structures collapsing ~2y after construction is something i associate with the time of hammurabi ( 'If a builder builds a house for a man and does not make its construction sound, and the house which he has built collapses and causes the death of the owner of the house, the builder shall be put to death...' ) than current day
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-09 13:14:07 asciilifeform: punkman: not always.
asciilifeform: << apropos, and imho sheds light on subj -- turns out that single-seat prop planes still ~100% using carburetted engines w/ 0 electronics. incl. recently-manufactured ones. likely, suspect, because 'it's yer arse', and owner understands, rather than it being corp & insurance wank in abstract, as w/ passenger liners
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-22 14:43:36 verisimilitude: People don't understand the value of analog devices. Consider a mirror with a camera inside of it. They need to be sat down and told how the mirror is like a computer, but the universe does it in its own little code.
asciilifeform vaguely recalls an article by signpost where he was flying in one and described this
asciilifeform: ( meanwhile you prolly can't buy a flashlight w/out a computer. and crashes. Because Reasons )
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-10 22:54:23 asciilifeform: i've found flashlights w/ 8bit micros in'em.
signpost: yep, in shitworld, the more money being allocated to a problem, the more brittle the solution may be.
signpost currently grunting through a lul where for some reason, after bootstrapping gnat, the compiler cannot find the "Ada" package, thus can't rebuild itself.
signpost: can't help but see an analogy here.
signpost: every distro, every company, whoever touched gcc, there was always a process of digestion before the shitwad was usable.
signpost bothering to not just "eh, I got this thing to build one time, here's a signed bin which will later be a religious artefact" but actually produce an item that can be bootstrapped on several systems.
signpost: heh, onoes, how will the russian crypto industry access capital.
shinohai: Link shared with me from a twatter denizen on why trb ain't a full Bitcoin node:
shinohai: many keks were had.
asciilifeform: shinohai: lulzy. (aand see also)
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-12-19 asciilifeform: << you know what's great? rat poison STILL WORKS even if you don't explain to the rats exactly ~how~ !
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-22 16:32:32 mats:
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-25 13:03:51 mats: my initial arg was that cz/binance is a sovereign, and i think that's borne out of the facts
mats: sovereigns can act in their own interest
crtdaydreams: << will be inclined to use the cl impl. :D might make a few additions that I've been thinking about
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-22 11:06:23 asciilifeform: meanwhile will link to shinohai's alt-vtron.
crtdaydreams: would be good opportunity to study some good code
signpost: crtdaydreams: what additions did you have in mind?
crtdaydreams: signpost: just an automation of compression and decompression patchsets
crtdaydreams: "wrapping" and "unwrapping" vtree tarballs and signing
signpost: I could sooner see transparent use of say gzip than tar.
crtdaydreams: wai not both tar.gz
crtdaydreams just used to calling .tar.gz "tarball"
signpost: vpatches are to be read by humans. easier to read them if they're individually gzipped rather than wadded together.
crtdaydreams: oh. I mean just for downloading them lol
signpost: doesn't really make sense to me.
crtdaydreams: easier to download one tarball with entire vtree for a proggy and unpack that and read than download a bunch of individual gzipped patches
crtdaydreams: plus say i.e. logotron on ascii's site
crtdaydreams: I had to manually go through and download each and every one of those patches
signpost: the ability to sync a remote and local folder already exists, rsync, wget -R, etc
signpost: I'd hesitate to try to cram features into the wrong tool.
crtdaydreams: hm. you're right. unimportant thought.
crtdaydreams: not useful and just bloating.
signpost: this kind of thinking is how you got the recursive shitcaking you see in linux already.
crtdaydreams has not had opportunity to know better until joining #a
signpost: compression might be plenty useful; I've got 10s of mb vpatches in pentacle.
crtdaydreams: well, if you're making binary blobs then it might not be too big of a deal.
signpost: I'm not making binary blobs.
crtdaydreams: I might have misinterpreted that thread though, only partially read
signpost: the src vpatches in pentacle are all text.
crtdaydreams: ok. well ignore then.
signpost: also, knowing better is a discursive process.
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