cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063760 << Ah shit, that's the whitepaper for the coin (I haven't read that, sorry for wasting your time), not the anonymity network. https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.00536
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 20:03:27 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063718 << read this and barfed, it's a (surprise?) shitcoin with 'blockchain', 'mixers', over9000 movingparts
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063804 << I will read get used to reading logs, I don't quite understand the enlightenment you promise. I'm just an observer, and will most likely never have something to contribute.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 20:19:23 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063651 << observe that asciilifeform et al cultivate the ~precise opposite~ of anonymity. once you grasp why, will have flash of enlightenment.
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063826 << If I understand correctly it's anti-cloudcuckery but rather defeatist in the face of it. It's also rather outdated (where was blockchain and DHTs when this was written?), so I think it served merit for it's time.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 20:36:39 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063699 << grade-a sniveling cloudcuck bullshit.
cdd: Anyone online?
thimbronion: billymg: I built sqlite-3.20.1-r1.ebuild on a dulap: http://share.alethepedia.com/portage/dev-db/sqlite/
thimbronion: asciilifeform: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=cIeK
billymg: thimbronion: i tried that one last night and it also 404'd on the source files (just tried again and same result)
billymg: thimbronion: since it was successful for you, any chance you now have the files for it sitting in your /usr/portage/distfiles/ ?
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1063874 << BingoBoingo once did a writeup on the futility and strategic failings of "being anonymous" on the internet http://bingology.net/2018/censorship-resistance-in-2018-an-introduction/?b=At%20the%20same&e=plight#select
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 01:45:10 cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063804 << I will read get used to reading logs, I don't quite understand the enlightenment you promise. I'm just an observer, and will most likely never have something to contribute.
thimbronion: billymg: I see sqlite-autoconf-3200100.tar.gz in here: http://share.alethepedia.com/portage/distfiles/
billymg: thimbronion: oh hey, yes, thank you. i didn't realize you had your whole /usr/portage directory mirrored
thimbronion: billymg: lol I didn't either
billymg: thimbronion: worked, ty
thimbronion: billymg: sweet
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1063872 << this is an almost canonical-grade example of academilul, can't resist to comment :
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 01:32:51 cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063760 << Ah shit, that's the whitepaper for the coin (I haven't read that, sorry for wasting your time), not the anonymity network. https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.00536
asciilifeform: 'the adversary has the ability to participate in the Loopix system as a compromised user, who may deviate from the protocol. We assume that the adversary can control a limited number of such users—excluding Sybil attacks  from the Loopix threat model—since we assume that honest providers are able to ensure that at least a large fraction of their users base are genuine users faithfully following all Loopix proto
asciilifeform: that ^ there's the 'punchline', inevitably found in these usg.academia 'products' (tho not always as explicitly printed as in the linked lul)
asciilifeform: 'let's take the real-life attack which 100% knocks down our house of cards and pretend it dun exist'
asciilifeform: ( not even to mention the baked-in notion of 'users' vs 'providers' a la the tor idjicy )
asciilifeform: i.e. the 'responsibility collapse triangle' of collectivist failure where there's 'users' who 'just want', and a set of 'providers' who are to supply the thing they 'just want', and somehow they are to live happily-ever-after together w/out one sticking knife in the back of the other
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-03-01 asciilifeform: what are ~all~ of the places where A has the ecstasy, but B does the laundry, where A!=B
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-15 22:18:56 asciilifeform: lru: it may help to clear up your thinking re subj if you realize that there is no such thing as 'people' in the network. there are participants, in abstract mathematical sense; but it doesn't cost very much to rent whatever # of machines, w/ unique ips , and pretend 'i'm 1e7 people' .
asciilifeform: the only reason e.g. bitcoin net worx, despite the abundance of inexpensive sybil nodes, is the usg.maligned proof-of-work.
asciilifeform: under any other structure, you have e.g. tor.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1063888 << a++, i'ma update mine, thx thimbronion
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 09:12:02 billymg: thimbronion: worked, ty
asciilifeform: cdd: once you understand that the academitards aint actually trying to set up groundwork for working software -- will immediately have over9000x ability to 'read b/w the lines' and these will stand out like cockroaches on white drywall
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-06-10 asciilifeform: 'My Navrozov moment, of course, was when I approached one of the two - Sacco, I think - and attempted to have an intellectual discussion of this realization. The story is basically the same as Navrozov's, so it would be boring to repeat, but basically I came away with the feeling that I'd told someone his Sicilian grandmother liked to get drunk and fuck her own goats.'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1063876 << there was plenty of working p2p net (incl. folx simply hosting www on self-owned irons) in '13, none of it required dht or bitcoinism
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 01:47:36 cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063826 << If I understand correctly it's anti-cloudcuckery but rather defeatist in the face of it. It's also rather outdated (where was blockchain and DHTs when this was written?), so I think it served merit for it's time.
asciilifeform: and defeatism of the 'inevitable history' variety is the archaetypical 5thcolumnism in fact.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-09-19 asciilifeform: 'I saw a huge steam roller, / It blotted out the sun. / The people all lay down, lay down; / They did not try to run. / ... ...' - k. vonnegut
asciilifeform: '"Lie down, lie down!" the people cried. "The great machine is history!" .. Perhaps we should have stayed and died, But somehow we don't think so. We went to see where history'd been, And my, the dead did stink so.'
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $65335.92
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=708799
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=708799
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=708799
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=708799
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : Alive: (0.090s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=708799 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.146s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=708799 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=708799 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : Alive: (0.225s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=708799
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Alive: (0.245s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=708799
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.314s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=708799
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.585s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=708799
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : (static.184.108.40.206.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.222s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=492601 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1063880 << ty thimbronion !
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 08:06:51 thimbronion: asciilifeform: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=cIeK
thimbronion: asciilifeform: yw!
PeterL: thimbronion: I am trying to connect to you on the test net, but I don't see anything yet?
thimbronion: PeterL: we see you
billymg: i've got blatta running and can connect to it from my IRC client, can any of those connected share their peer info?
billymg: ^ thimbronion, PeterL, shinohai
shinohai: billymg: gpgram me a key and I'll send ya my info
thimbronion: billymg: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Vv8B
billymg: shinohai: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=L_6W
billymg: thimbronion: ack
shinohai: billymg: my bad need you connection info for the /at command as well
billymg: shinohai: ah right, one sec
shinohai: billymg: http://btc.info.gf/paste/07c7e3@raw
billymg: thimbronion: i did the peer, at, key commands for your station
thimbronion: billymg: I will need your handle, ip:port
thimbronion: technically might just need your handle and key, but in that case you'd have to message me first to update my at, but haven't tried that
billymg: shinohai: here's the rest of the info http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=CQyD
billymg: thimbronion: my handle is billymg, and the key would be the one you sent me, correct?
thimbronion: billymg: yeah. I have added your handle and key.
billymg: ok, let me try to send you a message and see if the at updates
shinohai: billymg: Added
billymg: shinohai: just sent you a privmsg, did it come through?
shinohai: billymg: negative, I sent you one as well
billymg: shinohai: hrm
asciilifeform: thimbronion: how didja get e.g. weechat to eat KEY cmd ? mine bards
shinohai: asciilifeform: prefix with `/quote`
thimbronion: /quote key handle xxx
asciilifeform: aa ty
asciilifeform then discovers that the box he set up for this experiment has only python 2.6, and of course thing chokes on it
asciilifeform: but, lol, only when joining #pest
thimbronion: asciilifeform: lulz. I've been using pyenv.
shinohai: venv worx a++ for me too ... during test actually connected from android phone in termux.
asciilifeform: ok dunwork in 2.7 either
asciilifeform: NameError: name 'os' is not defined
asciilifeform: (again on joining #pest)
thimbronion: really does seem like a python version thing hrmmmmm
shinohai: I'm using pythong 2.7.18 fwiw
asciilifeform: wtf is 'pyenv' anyway ? it aint in my gentoo portage
thimbronion: it's a shim that allows you to switch between python versions
asciilifeform: guessed as much. but where does one get it ?
thimbronion: shithub: https://github.com/pyenv/pyenv
PeterL: os needs to get imported, should be one of the default modules available in any python version
shinohai: My version of blatta at least `import os` is very first line!
asciilifeform: for that matter my v.py imports it
asciilifeform: and worx a++, is how i pressed
asciilifeform: so wtf
thimbronion: oh oh yeah. could be a bug in blatta - possible triggered by some option asciilifeorm is using that I don't ever use...
asciilifeform: thimbronion: i ran with './blatta --debug --ports 5000 --udp-port 13337 --statedir ~/state --verbose'
asciilifeform: it runs a++ until one tries to join #pest
thimbronion: ok never used --statedir before
thimbronion: I think there was a similar issue with --logdir
asciilifeform: hm then worx
asciilifeform: i have thimbronion peered but see only self in #pest
asciilifeform: ah worx!
asciilifeform: thimbronion: i take it the current ver. of blatta doesn't mark hearsay?
thimbronion: asciilifeform: correct. that's next up.
asciilifeform saw billymg, but not peered him yet, nick wasn't marked 'billymg(awt)' even tho only had the latter
asciilifeform: ah ok
asciilifeform: 'WOT' doesn't seem to show times of last contact
asciilifeform: (i'ma guess this not yet baked?)
asciilifeform: (i.e. i peered shinohai but nfi whether successful contact)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: at has it
shinohai: I don't have asciilifeform peered yet, did not have info for at
asciilifeform: btw in that case not worx per spec, AT showed a contact with shinohai
asciilifeform: ought to show time of last ~received~ valid packet from peer, per sect. 2.5.1
asciilifeform: ( unless shinohai peered asciilifeform while i was speaking this )
thimbronion: asciilifeform: noted. really just shows the last time the address was updated
asciilifeform will leave it running for nao but thing defo needs some debugging. e.g. dedup randomly fails.
asciilifeform unfortunately cannot presently devote much time w/ own hands
thimbronion: asciilifeform: dedup problem resolved
asciilifeform: thimbronion: hm?
thimbronion: the multiple messages were due to shinohai having two entries for you in the wot. Now there's only one and we aren't seeing anymore duplicated messages.
thimbronion: I need to update the wot db to enforce unique handles, though.
shinohai: I like fuzzing, what can I say?
thimbronion: For those interested: pest testnet logs here: http://logs.bitdash.io/
asciilifeform: hm thimbronion how come asciilifeform didn't see any of these in #pest ?
billymg: asciilifeform: lemme know when you have a chance to look into my hosting request so i can get my logger running on some faster hardware
asciilifeform: billymg: i got the box, is under test nao
billymg: asciilifeform: nice!
thimbronion: asciilifeform: Unsure. Are you not seeing anymore messages?
asciilifeform: last msg is shinohai's 'once with date affixed to end'
thimbronion: asciilifeform: just sent you a dm. Anything in your logs?
thimbronion: Mind if I publish the ip:port I have for you here?
thimbronion: asciilifeform 18.104.22.168:64130
asciilifeform: thimbronion: ah this is interesting -- that's an ephemeral port
asciilifeform: thimbronion: i suspect that the mechanism there needs refinement
asciilifeform: ( if a permanent port is known for a peer, that's the 1 that oughta be used for contact )
thimbronion: ohhh ok. I have dealt with issues there before.
asciilifeform: or possib. needs a packet router finesse so that they leave out the specificed hole
asciilifeform: ephemeral routes expire btw
asciilifeform: could be why asciilifeform's station is silent
thimbronion: asciilifeform: it is unclear to me right now why you're blatta is not sending from 13337
asciilifeform: thimbronion: it's behind a nat (with 13337 inbound routed correctly to inside)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I thikn that's it. Currently blatta updates the at to the last address and port a message from a peer was received from.
asciilifeform: this is per spec tho. i suspect that the question needs handling on router end
asciilifeform: station oughta send from same port as it expects to receive in
thimbronion: asciilifeform: current address/port I have for you: 22.214.171.124:8561
asciilifeform: thimbronion: again ephemeral port, aha
asciilifeform: i suspect this explains the message loss
asciilifeform: (errybody else must be testing on 'naked' boxes w/out filters ?)
thimbronion: I am
asciilifeform: shinohai, billymg ?
billymg: asciilifeform: no filters that i know of, no
asciilifeform: thing oughta work from behind a nat. will need to think (and suggestions invited) how to do this w/out mutilating spec
asciilifeform: a nat with an inbound rule oughta be sufficient (for both sides of a peering in fact)
shinohai: No filters here either, simply opened the port for pest station.
thimbronion: I briefly looked into "hole punching" but was rapidly in over my head
asciilifeform: thimbronion: do shinohai's packets on your end show up from constant port ?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: 'hole punching' actually is what we're doing presently,turns out, w/ asciilifeform's station; but it dunwork reliably, because ephemeral
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I have two ips and one port from shinohai
asciilifeform: i suspect that asciilifeform's station needs an outbound rule in pfsense
shinohai: 2 ip's O.o
asciilifeform: ( either that; or packets oughta have a field for requested inbound port, possibly )
thimbronion: First one I have from shinohai is: 126.96.36.199
asciilifeform: thinking about it, no need for field, simply need to avoid updating port in AT, only update ip when valid packet is received from new one
shinohai: thimbronion: first one is bot ip
asciilifeform: that way will work with strictly inbound rule
thimbronion: asciilifeform: easy change
asciilifeform: thimbronion, signpost , shinohai , billymg , et al -- can anyone think of a reason not to do this ?
asciilifeform: imho worth discussing, no reason to hurry
shinohai: I can think of no reason here offhand.
asciilifeform: it would mean that port gotta be set manually (via 'AT') before a peering can work
asciilifeform: but aside from that, afaik harmless
thimbronion: asciilifeform: only objection I have is that it was pretty nice to be able to just pass out a key and address and not have to wait for a gpgram with the the other guy's address.
asciilifeform: possibly would even make sense to have a 'return addr' msg type
asciilifeform: i can think of circumstances where outgoing and incoming ip, and not only port, may differ for a station
asciilifeform will switch off his testbed for nao
asciilifeform: if it's an easy fix via pfsense outbound rule, possib. oughta keep thing as it is
asciilifeform unfortunately not has time atm to find the magick knob
asciilifeform: !q uptime
dulapbot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 145d 14h 8m
asciilifeform ftr does think it is very neat that there is already a ~90% prototype ! ty thimbronion !
thimbronion: asciilifeform: ty been enjoying this project quite a bit.
asciilifeform: almost lulzy how long we sat in fleanode bog
thimbronion: really is.
asciilifeform recalls how mp rejected multiple offers to set up ordinary irc net, because 'must' peer with fleanode/other classic net despite none of the latter wanting anyffin to do with such thing, 'how will the camwhores log in' etc
asciilifeform: anybody miss fleanode? cuz asciilifeform doesn't one bit, lol
thimbronion: I miss 2004 fleanode
asciilifeform: well i miss 1998 usenet, heh
PeterL: I was only on Freenode to talk to the people here
thimbronion: otherwise no fleanode is dead and has been replaced by slack
asciilifeform: PeterL: ditto
asciilifeform: thimbronion: well over9000 proprietary aols
asciilifeform: wb punkman
punkman: nice to see pestnet going
asciilifeform: punkman: iirc you were baking own client ?
punkman: was replacing sqlite with a simple kv store, then was too busy, so currently not working
punkman: might get it back to working this week
asciilifeform: as with e.g. vtrons -- the moar the merrier
asciilifeform: imho is simple enuff protocol that just about erryone could make own client
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1064060 << this was my initial implementation too
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 12:59:17 asciilifeform: thinking about it, no need for field, simply need to avoid updating port in AT, only update ip when valid packet is received from new one
asciilifeform: ( much simpler than 'full bore' irc say )
punkman: I did some googling about "outgoing UDP port" then, didn't get to bottom of it though
asciilifeform: punkman: initially asciilifeform concretely wanted to avoid 'standard port' but seems that without some port fixation of whatever kind , will be a bitch to speak via nat
asciilifeform: the headache with ephemeral ports is that most routers require the machine behind the nat to 'keep it alive' by sending packets over some unspecified interval
asciilifeform: if stops doing this -- that port gets closed and the next packet will come outta a new ephemeral port
asciilifeform: typical 'worx in nat' udpisms solve this simply by being 'chatty' enuff
punkman: perhaps a problem with how the python socket is set up
asciilifeform: punkman: not to say there isn't, but simply the default behaviour of a nat is sufficient to explain the ports thing
asciilifeform: upstack, thimbronion , why would this cause dupes ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 11:59:53 thimbronion: the multiple messages were due to shinohai having two entries for you in the wot. Now there's only one and we aren't seeing anymore duplicated messages.
asciilifeform: if his station spuriously rebroadcast asciilifeform's msg , they oughta have still been properly deduped by the receivers
thimbronion: asciilifeform: haven't had time to repro and debug locally, so I don't know precicely why.
asciilifeform: a ok
asciilifeform: i still suspect broken deduper, for above reason
asciilifeform: (possibly the thing alters timestamps when rebroadcasting ? by spec it mustn't)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: well atm no dupes, lots of broadcasting and forwarding going on...
asciilifeform: (a rebroadcast msg is naturally reciphered/resigned to be readable by its receivers, but otherwise gotta stay unaltered)
asciilifeform: hence why 'bounce counter' is in the packet but outside the msg
thimbronion: asciilifeform: this is how rebroadcasting is implemented, yes
asciilifeform: a ok
asciilifeform will read the coad in coming days
thimbronion is certain asciilifeform will find some howlers
asciilifeform: thimbronion: i also suggest that debug spew ought not include failed decrypts unless fails for all known keys
asciilifeform: (the current behaviour is rather confusing)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I will take the time to formulate the problem there. Not sure how to describe it at the moment.
asciilifeform: i'd simply print 'martian from ip:port' etc
thimbronion: honestly surprised anyone took the time to look at the debug log
asciilifeform: how else to debug, lol
asciilifeform: atm the log's quite edible, what with 0 spam and very few legit packets flying
asciilifeform: when folx start piping Gbs of warez via pest, may be trickier
asciilifeform: ( and doubtful that a py client will keep up , fwiw )
thimbronion: indeed. used to be more verbose, displaying ciphertext, and more
asciilifeform: btw for 'production' client you prolly dun want keys in logs under any circumstance
thimbronion: asciilifeform: yep
thimbronion: asciilifeform: would be interesting to stress test the py client and see when it falls down
asciilifeform: if correct logic, won't 'fall down' as such, simply will run outta cpu above some incoming packet rate
asciilifeform: wb cdd
cdd: Good day to you asciilifeform, just reading logs and the material attached to them.
asciilifeform: cdd: it aint lispm-related, but possibly you may find interesting.
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1063899 << It makes sense, I don't normally think in this way (despite having multiple computers I SSH into daily). Lack of good judgment I guess.
cdd: ...nor do I run a botnet :-D
asciilifeform: cdd: dunno whether you're familiar with bitcoin net, but it is a good example of sybilism, in fact ~90% of the nominal nodes are operated by enemy and thing still works nevertheless
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-17 16:37:18 asciilifeform: re upstack , imho important q for any participant to answer ~for himself~, 'does bitcoin work? what does it mean for it to work?' (see also e.g.)
cdd: Hm I see.
cdd: I have a limited understanding of Bitcoin, but I have a somewhat decent understanding of "tokenomics" and other abstract shitcoin biz.
shinohai: Speaking of "tokenomics" this came through the hopper earlier: https://ghostbin.com/WZGrd
shinohai: ^ punkman might appreciate
asciilifeform: shinohai: wassat?
shinohai: It's a malicious "flash loan" contract for those using various mETHereums.
asciilifeform: 'На жадину не нужен нож, / Ему покажешь медный грош / И делай с ним, что хошь.'(tm)(r)('song of basilio the cat' ('for a greedy bastard, you need no knife, show'im a penny -- he'll give his life' approx.)
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1063883 << Good read. Though I'm not a writer, I'm just an observer. I think it provides me with an "easy exit" at any time.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 08:58:51 billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1063874 << BingoBoingo once did a writeup on the futility and strategic failings of "being anonymous" on the internet http://bingology.net/2018/censorship-resistance-in-2018-an-introduction/?b=At%20the%20same&e=plight#select
cdd: I think anonymity (however fickle a thing) serves it's purpose well for an observer. Especially investigating communities that you would certainly rather have separated from your AFK identity. I.e. various imageboards, communities etc. One might later regret those communications (as I have in the past).
cdd: ...and choose instead to erase their ties with it completely.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: my rationale for implementing blatta in python was: just get up a p2p thing that everyone can use to chat and test out/iron out the spec so we can get off of IRC asap. Do you think it's worth finishing, even though it likely won't be able to handle heavier traffic uses?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: imho defo worth
asciilifeform: hell, asciilifeform still uses v.py.
asciilifeform: 6y+ later.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: alright
asciilifeform: a working gadget is over9000x better than 'wait for someday'
asciilifeform: esp. given that having it in no way interferes (quite opposite, in fact) w/ making 'adult' item
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1064161 << even there what you ~actually~ want is pseudonymity, not anonymity
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 16:07:32 cdd: I think anonymity (however fickle a thing) serves it's purpose well for an observer. Especially investigating communities that you would certainly rather have separated from your AFK identity. I.e. various imageboards, communities etc. One might later regret those communications (as I have in the past).
asciilifeform: they aint the same thing.
asciilifeform: all anonymity does is to destroy the very possibility of human relations.
asciilifeform: i.e. literally no one knows whether message n+1 is by same person as n and n-1
asciilifeform: there's no actual win from this, it is simply fraudulently foisted on folx as a 'either erryone signs with passport name, or this' pseudoinevitability.
asciilifeform: if yer passion in life is, dunno, zoophile forums, you still want continuity if you want something like actual social life in functioning relations with fellow zoophiles
asciilifeform: full anonymity just gets you 1) spamola 2) provocateurs
asciilifeform: i.e. anonymity may seem to serve 'your' purpose, cdd, but actually is a concept slipped to you by your enemy, and serves more so ~his~ purpose than your own.
asciilifeform fwiw doesn't much go in for ~either~ kind, on his www right there is his human name and folx without much effort can and regularly do contact him in meatspace
asciilifeform uses handles largely outta tradition/stylistic whim
asciilifeform: !!key cdd
deedbot: Not registered.
asciilifeform: cdd: see, for instance if you haven't a pgp key, you can't get on anybody's (well, can only speak for self, but i dun expect anyone wants to send a pest key via plaintext) pest net.
asciilifeform: making a wot identity doesn't force the maker to reveal his passport name, office addr, or whatever.
asciilifeform: simply makes it possible for other folx to know that they're talking to ~a someone~ rather than a sequence of nsa stooges or misc. fauna
asciilifeform: when you send a pgpgram to e.g. asciilifeform , you can be (reasonably) certain that it'll be read by the fella who signed e.g. trb genesis and so on.
asciilifeform: i.e. there's a continuity.
asciilifeform: aaand with such continuity, you can do biz. without -- can only (at best) chitchat.
asciilifeform: ... pest is very deliberately not neutral in this political cut.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 17:58:59 signpost: also worth considering that at the bottom of every software design is a particular political view
asciilifeform: it is for folx who would rather keep company with continuous identities than with amoebic froth.
asciilifeform: imho there is no actual advantage to deliberately taking the position of amoeba, living 'on birds' rights' among people; only illusory 'advantages'. but it is not simple to convince noobs of this, typically they gotta see (or not) for themselves.
cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1064193 << It seems I've confused being anonymous with obfuscating my personal life. I think a continuity of identity is essential to any reasonable human interaction, however I don't think that identity should reveal the kinds of information as mentioned here. My problem is when the limited information is
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 17:58:54 asciilifeform: imho there is no actual advantage to deliberately taking the position of amoeba, living 'on birds' rights' among people; only illusory 'advantages'. but it is not simple to convince noobs of this, typically they gotta see (or not) for themselves.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 17:42:23 asciilifeform: making a wot identity doesn't force the maker to reveal his passport name, office addr, or whatever.
cdd: supplied it's typically very easy to find the rest. I also self-host, I'm consistently (and irrationally) paranoid that my server might get pwn'd (even though there is no rational reason why it would.
cdd: I don't even host anything of tangible value, but there's a fear that I say something that might just tip someone off to fuck with me.
cdd: All I host is a personal plain HTTP site and a HTTP/FTP (Public read) server.
cdd: I have zero confidence in my ability to set up and secure the server everything's running on.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1064151 << how is it possible to understand "tokens" if you don't understand bitcoin
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 14:57:18 cdd: I have a limited understanding of Bitcoin, but I have a somewhat decent understanding of "tokenomics" and other abstract shitcoin biz.
punkman: sort of like having a decent understanding of calculus, without understanding basic algebra
cdd: punkman: Well, I mean that in a comparison. I know more about shitcoins than I do about bitcoin itself. Ask me to write a basic blockchain and I'll have no idea where to start. I understand limited things abstractly, but I have no real knowledge of their implementation.
cdd: I'm a complete noob in a sense. I can watch candles go up and down, that's about it.
cdd: Jack of all trades, master of nothing. Don't expect much from me.
punkman: this is the hope of shitcoin peddlers, you have a "decent understanding" without "knowledge of implementation", and then they can handwave the grim realities of their shitware away
cdd: Well, I assure you I'm not here to peddle shitcoins. The loopix stuff was only something I'd heard of elsewhere and brought up in relation to pest.
cdd: If I was here to shill crap, it's all I'd be talking about after establishing some sense of rapport.
punkman: no, I mean that's how you are being "peddled to", not that you are doing it
cdd: Ah I see, you suggest that I gain an intrinsic understanding of these things (implementation) in order to prevent myself being scammed.
cdd: I completely agree.
cdd: I've only put money into one shitcoin/altcoin because of it's tokenomics.
cdd: Even with a surface level understanding of it, perhaps it was a mistake.
punkman: which one is that?
cdd: It has a 10% burn, 50% of which is distributed among all holders.
cdd: The other is to a burn wallet that devs don't have access to. Their contract code is on the github, I had a read and it seems pretty sound.
cdd: It makes sense, but it's inherently flawed and will always be an asset, not a currency.
cdd: So in the crypto rat-race it's just another shitcoin.
punkman: "SafeMoon multiplied rapidly in value after a wave of celebrity endorsements, including from rapper Lil' Yachty, YouTuber Logan Paul, and sports blogger Dave Portnoy."
cdd: Oh, I didn't know about that. Cringe.
cdd: It's got a reddit page that's just a cringe shitstorm.
punkman: why would you use/hold Safemoon, instead of Binance coin?
cdd: The burn.
cdd: I made 1mil tokens in the recent pump.
cdd: Because of that 5% distribution.
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-08#1064224 <<< for the love of Satan what else do you expect to find on reddit?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 20:11:18 cdd: It's got a reddit page that's just a cringe shitstorm.
cdd: shinohai: pron.
shinohai: I mean, if you like cuck pr0n .... to each their own.
cdd: I don't use plebbit.
cdd: I'd like to point that out, I don't use dickscord either (though I did for a while. It's a generational thing)
cdd: My main interest is in Safemoon's tokenomics, because it was the first coin to come up with a distributed burn (from my knowledge)
cdd: If there have been more beforehand, excuse my ignorance.
punkman: it's not a burn if you are getting it
cdd: 5% burn, 5% dist.
cdd: So eh, I guess.
punkman: says the other 5% goes in "liquidity pool"
cdd: No, a burn wallet. It's gone, locked away permanently and cannot be retrieved.
punkman: anyway, these "tokenomics" are variation of "ponzi scheme"
cdd: I'm aware.
cdd: It's an uneven distribution, proportional to the number of tokens you hold.
cdd: So someone with a shit tonne of tokens, gets more of a share from each distribution. It's market incentive for something that holds no intrinsic value.
cdd: That's why it's an asset.
cdd: My thought is that if you wanted a currency, why not have Universal Basic Income based off a decentralized distribution. That way the tokens hold their value in distribution because you're not "printing more money" so to speak.
punkman: if you think it's "ponzi scheme", how can you say it's an asset
cdd: It's an asset up until it's not. That's when I make exit and watch the ponzi collapse. Because I'm a longer-term holder I've been gaining reflections as the market moves. When it finally does it's huge pump I will have made more than the +10% gain needed for an exit.
cdd: Because there's that 10% on every transaction, I loose 10% when I exit. All the people at the top of the pump are apart of the ponzi because they won't have made the 10%.
punkman: ah "asset" in shitcoin jargon then. that's fine, punkman understands appeal of being degenerate gambler
cdd: I have to go now. Be well punkman.