verisimilitude: Again, this reminds me of something I've written: Through the rotations, this message goes; where will the bits flip, nobody knows!
verisimilitude: Any code I write won't assume collisions never happen; anything else is foolish.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: well, not 'nobody', lol
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the twist is that all kindsa things necessarily rely on 'impossibility' of collision. incl. e.g. bitcoin.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-09-01 asciilifeform: trinque: the other thing, if you are going to put entire weight of the known universe on a hash, gotta specify what happens in case of a collision.
verisimilitude: Yes.
asciilifeform: err, here's the correct link for above
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-03-11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unrelatedly, didja ever calculate what would happen to trb (or for that matter prb) if one were to produce a colliding txid ?
verisimilitude: So, to me, it looks like a house of cards.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: errything's a house of cards.
verisimilitude: No.
verisimilitude: I'm fully aware of how fragile these things really are, asciilifeform.
verisimilitude: RSA stops working if factoring primes becomes easy.
asciilifeform: lol!
verisimilitude: A one-time pad always works.
asciilifeform will factor any prime you like, for small fee!1111
verisimilitude: Once perfect foundations are abandoned, it's a matter of risk.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: a reliable otp is in practice inaccessible to erryone but owners of FG or equivalent (i.e. auditable, unwhitened) tool
verisimilitude: So?
verisimilitude: We know I'm right.
asciilifeform: re which
verisimilitude: Mostly, regarding hashes.
verisimilitude: I've always viewed relying on them as fragile.
verisimilitude: If collisions are possible, a correct program must handle them.
verisimilitude: s/are/be/
asciilifeform: the interesting q is what if anything interesting in cryptography, outside of otp, is possible w/out relying on hashism.
verisimilitude: I agree.
asciilifeform: all known public key signature schemes, for instance, rely on hashism somewhere.
asciilifeform must bbl.
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
watchglass: 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=695578
watchglass: 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.032s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=695578
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.085s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=695578 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.110s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=695578
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.149s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=695578 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.159s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=695578
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.276s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=695578
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.327s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=695578
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.552s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=695578
watchglass: 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.482s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=695578 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 54.38.94.63:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length!
watchglass: 176.9.59.199:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length! (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
asciilifeform continuing in keccak lulz, asciilifeform surveyed dozen or so published impls. of the algo, incl. e.g. this www-based item (specifically keccak, rather than sha3) and found that they agree w/ one another, but none with the diana kludge used in current vtron.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-09-02 asciilifeform: incidentally shinohai keccak != usg.sha3
asciilifeform evidently doomed to a log archaeological expedition to find why.
asciilifeform: unless e.g. signpost happens to remember
PeterL: asciilifeform: If you remember, I once wrote a keccak implementation. It did not agree with Diana's, I think it might have to do with the endianness of how you put the data into the sponge function
PeterL: but I never actually nailed down what the difference was
PeterL: I don't remember if I checked against any other implementations though
PeterL: (sorry if this is not actually very helpful)
asciilifeform: PeterL: i recall
asciilifeform pictures : what if mp had asked somebody to make a mains grid; it'd've been, say, 170 volt, and 'is the way it is because it is!111' etc
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $47478.84
PeterL: !s uptime
scoopbot: PeterL: time since my last reconnect : 9d 1h 14m
PeterL: I am going to be sitting in the woods for the next ~week, hopefully our scoopy little friend keeps going without me watching :)
asciilifeform: PeterL: enjoy!