vex: such pest
vex: can we shuffle a deck on pestnet?
vex: phf: pest station is on my list of things to do. The way I picture it, when I get around to it, there will be less drunken rants, but in my heart of herst I know it's not true
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-22 phf[awt]: awt: crtdaydreams is making these points on #a, while he obviously has a working pest instance. ascii's logtron has been out of sync with the net for 22d and he's been away for as long. i'd say there was a kind of attempt at a liftoff a month and a half ago, which sputtered. a worthwhile participation in pest imho would be
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011277 << asciilifeform took for 1st time in many yrs 'vacation', to carry out a physical experiment (will elide details, not interesting to readers, guaranteed) which ended in crater, demoralizing. in the course of which, lol, contracted current ver. of covidiocy. intending fwiw to get back in biz this wk.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-08-22 15:49:35 crtdaydreams: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011278 << this. far more helpful than "hurr durr didja read the spec for the 48th time?"
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-08-22#1113256 << there is nothing wrong with using XMPP as the protocol between your Pest station and your GUI.
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-22 phf[awt]: notice that there's nobody actually on pestnet! which would be an equivalent of “go to firing range, practice with many magazines”. but if with ak one can put a flashlight, and a rail and then basically exhaust the masturbatory activity, with software the malleability means that one can perpetually “attach rails” o
crtdaydreams: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011274 << also answers the above "Why not morse over pest?"
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-22 phf[jonsykkel]: a) to make concious effort to prioritize pest over #a in personal communiccation b) further put blatta through paces by running it c) write own clients.
crtdaydreams: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011278 << this. far more helpful than "hurr durr didja read the spec for the 48th time?"
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-07 15:19:55 asciilifeform: thinks he grasps phf's point re 'rough edges' . most of'em however artifacts of draft impl. rather than intrinsic to a p2p net. i.e. there's no particular reason wai one couldn't have an outwardly aol-shaped pest client, so long as has a means to exch keys (say, with barcode <-> camera rub)
crtdaydreams: Evidently doesn't matter what interface is attached to pest, only the processing of incoming/outgoing packets to match what everyone else is using. Could ~in theory~ transmit messages by morse to a pest daemon.
asciilifeform: aol aim 'pest client' when.
shinohai: But muh matrix.org pest client.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-08-22 05:13:08 crtdaydreams: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-08-21#1113228 << a prosody server isn't too much of stretch to set up, I've wondered how hard it'd be to port pestnet to XMPP
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-08-22#1113234 << lol! in what sense would that be 'pest' ? didja ever read the spec btw? (whole point of pest is the connectionless aspect w/ authenticated packets, aint any kinda mystery if you read even sect.1)
crtdaydreams: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-08-21#1113228 << a prosody server isn't too much of stretch to set up, I've wondered how hard it'd be to port pestnet to XMPP
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-19 phf[awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-08-19#1113183 << i'm porting my code to genera, and truncated sha512 would've simplified things for me (well, it's still plenty of work, relatively a drop in the bucket)
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-19#1011239 << very nifty, even if battlefield utility of a pestron on 10M ethernet is dubious
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-16 awt: Would be nice to have something in the pest spec for file storage and retrieval
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-16#1011219 << defo intending to flesh this out in next rev, once wrap head around signpost's thing
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-08-14 04:04:37 crtdaydreams: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-07#1011090 << So, what makes a man worth writing about?
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-07 phf[awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-07#1011082 << all biographies worth reading have already been written, because they don't make men worth writing about anymore
crtdaydreams: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-07#1011090 << So, what makes a man worth writing about?
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-12 billymg: asciilifeform: anything to look out for when selecting cat6 cables? i need to run a 250ft cable through an underground pvc conduit
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-12#1011162 << cut a small piece from end when buying, see that it's actually cu (rather than cu-plated al). and that the shields actually there.
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-13 phf[awt]: i say accidentally because you're just taking dot-decimal label and laying it out in memory, but if you were to convert ip address to number first and then write it to array as big endian you'd get the same layout
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-13 phf[awt]: *isn't
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-13#1011169 << indeed thus spake the drowned fella. ( tho fwiw asciilifeform not awol, simply stuck with vt100 atm. and errything in the dc worx )
asciilifeform apologizes to folx on pestnet for delay in replies; asciilifeform not uncrated pestron yet, on acct of several simultaenous (albeit uninteresting to audience) clusterfucks
vex: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-06#1011060 whereby kakobrekla discovers that /me is his landlord
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-07 phf[awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-07#1011082 << all biographies worth reading have already been written, because they don't make men worth writing about anymore
vex: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-07#1011090 larsen has released one pdf; a crib sheet on celestial navigation. bloke was at sea with ancient sight tables, and not much else to read
asciilifeform covid'd, will uncrate pestron at some pt when fully vertical again
PeterL: ^ (manual pest propagation)
bitbot: (pest) 2022-08-02 awt: asciilifeform: I don't understand why a Prod must be replied to with another Prod if everyone is periodically sending out Prod messages.
asciilifeform pays the dc folx in 1y installments, so if subscribers see it die w/out any comment from asciilifeform on pestnet, can safely assume he bit it
asciilifeform observes, unrelatedly, that evidently none of dulapbot's pest peerings other than to asciilifeform's desk (still in a crate, ftr) in fact worked. apologies to anyone who may've been relying on its log
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-03 shinohai[asciilifeform]: yummy! Had some lox and eggs myself.
adlai: fwiw, my "write lisp for your soul" drive is leaning more strongly towards "write pure CL functions for computing ideal guitar tuning, given chord progressions of setlist", than "implement the pest spec, then crawl towards roach-for-roach compatibility with roacha"
PeterL: are you saying that the suggestion to stand up your own pest station counts as spec work?
PeterL: you could try to do a pest in lisp?
adlai: after all, pestnet is not bittorrent!
PeterL: it just seems like we are gradually moving everything to #pest, was wondering if you were going to show up there or just disappear?
adlai typed 'adlai' one time into a #pest search, zero results, shrugged.
PeterL: adlai: have you stood up a pest station yet?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-28 16:57:24 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-28#1010895 << I turned my Pest station off temporarily, but will start it again soon.
adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-28#1112493 << iiuc, the primary higher purpose of the stateless communications system is for such declarations to be superfluous, if not downright foolish; at best, maybe the apology only belongs within pestnet?
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-31 asciilifeform: 'final solution' is when 'www page' which wants to display a bitmap on the screen, can e.g. (include "072a3ce8c00bb2a5867727ce4d788d5634fdd11a4a01e82239b75bb844dbb081") and fetch png decoder, if not already cached, from pestnet, and compute the req. # of eval ticks from it, + whatever other includes, and the data payload,
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-31#1011129 << if CPUs were 1e1 times faster and disks 1e4 times faster, this would be trivial.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-31 asciilifeform: is somehow certain that there is a conventional name for this technique; but does not know it (and for that matter not presently aware of any public examples of it other than the linked)
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-31#1011125 << a "total programming language" is one where all programs are guaranteed to terminate.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-29 10:01:59 shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-29#1112624 << /me was unaware vex had ever stood up a pest station.
gregorynyssa: shinohai: if he is not on Pest yet, he will be soon.
asciilifeform: shinohai: never seen him on pestnet
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-29 04:20:20 gregorynyssa: vex: you should spend more time in #pest. I miss your presence over there.
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-29#1112624 << /me was unaware vex had ever stood up a pest station.
gregorynyssa: vex: you should spend more time in #pest. I miss your presence over there.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-28 billymg[asciilifeform]: i'll try generating some keys for you to peer with bitbot and crawlerbot, might have some luck there (e.g. signpost peered no problem with bitbot, but to this day no luck with this station)
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-28#1010897 << that would be great.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-28 billymg[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-07-27#1112369 << added this yesterday, don't see any packets from you yet though
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-28#1010895 << I turned my Pest station off temporarily, but will start it again soon.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-27 phf[asciilifeform]: my '84 edition of lisp machine manual refers to various lisps as "Common Lisp" "Zetalisp" "Maclisp" and in general "Lisp"
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-27#1010754 << Paul Graham was not the first to use "Lisp" to refer to the class, but LISP was also prevalent until his 2000s essays, which settled the matter.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-27 phf[asciilifeform]: from my reading of relevant papers, you start seeing e.g. MACLISP refered to as MacLisp or Maclisp around 79, although in private correspondce even earlier
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-27#1010753 << Maclisp/MacLisp was the name of a particular language, not the class of languages.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-27 phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, i have no idea if the man does things, i thought that particular quote was a little gem. refering to language as “LISP”, read many papers /and books/ not written any. if we had an eqv of bashorg, ought to put the quote there
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-27#1010729 << the use of "Lisp" (uppercase L, lowercase "isp") to refer to CL, Scheme, etc. collectively is a "Paul Grahamism."
asciilifeform: signpost: thinking about it, one only needs to decrypt 8 bytes (well, 16, being the serpent block size) past the nonce, to see timestamp. but still.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-23 15:14:30 asciilifeform: PeterL: let's assume ethernet. so, in bytes, let's calculate 1 packet's mass: 5 (gap) + 4 (preamble) + 14 (eth header) + 20 (ipv4 hdr) + 8 (udp header) + 496 (pest) + 4 (ethernet crc) == 551
asciilifeform: asciilifeform would be that nobody's aboutta receive legit pest traffic at g/s, so this observation chiefly concerns liquishit from ddosers.
asciilifeform: ( moar pedantically, per 'Nothing to the Snoop' rly )
asciilifeform: per doctrine of 'Nothing to the Stranger', absolutely nuffin is carried in plaintext. so you gotta verify seal & decrypt, potentially for each incoming packet, and this operation oughta be as fast as physically possible.
asciilifeform: ( throwing out a martian, in this case a packet where seal != H(Ks) for any Ks in yer wot , only requires hashing; however, tossing out a replay dupe requires decrypting
asciilifeform: as it is, one can pest immed. from any working ipv4 pipe
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-01 14:28:09 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: per pest conception, you wanna be able to ensure unfraggedness even if pesting from moving truck and wardriving, which precludes 'clever' path mtu discovery etc
asciilifeform: afaik almost all folx on pestnet, currently using it.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-26 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-25#1010638 << imho could make sense to have a lubytron where can ask >1 peer for $frag; but not l2+ (cuz ruinously, 'geometrically' expensive, and the traffic will be pure noise to all but the 1 intended recipient)
asciilifeform: signpost: makes sense. if you make it a broadcast tho, will be riotously expensive, as l2+ would have to somehow pass the replies to the requester, and the only way to do so is to broadcast right back
jonsykkel: am i correct in my understanding that ading infrastructure for piping bigass multiGB files over pest while retaining replay protection is planned?
billymg: gregorynyssa: ack. added your key. my ip is the same that pestnet.io resolves to, port is 7778
billymg: it's interesting because i don't see your message in my pest console either (where awt and jonsykkel say 'hi' i'm guessing)
bitbot: (pest) 2022-07-21 phf[awt]: *victorian
vex: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-21#1010265 <i've done some of this, hanging off a ladder with a 14 inch diamond blade with all the newton metres. remediating the action of time in old stonework by gluing in high tensile helical rod. works a treat
jonsykkel: gregorynyssa: should yes, since ur within pestradius of logger
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: if I send you a message, will it appear in the "pest" section of logs.nosuchlabs.com?
asciilifeform suspects that gregorynyssa's confusion stems from having worked w/ aes , where there is an explicit init vector. in serpent, there aint one. the 'nonce' referred to in pest spec simply sits down as the 1st 16byte block.
thimbronion: gregorynyssa: it should but there's a lot of GETDATA spam from crtdaydream's smalpest client
gregorynyssa: thimbronion: I sent some messages to your Pest station but they are not going through.
asciilifeform: ... or that it serves up considerable resources to unauthenticated allcomers
asciilifeform: i.e. a peer can of course construct an arbitrarily-long chain that'll skip the staleness test. but a stranger -- cannot.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-20 10:22:02 cgra: asciilifeform: does this affect your intent to implement the 'chain locking', or still want it the same? if still the same, how do you view 'deterministic S-turd' approaches, like: "S-turd := HASH(S0 + chain_msg_seq_no)"?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-20 10:12:22 cgra: fwiw, in my possibly uneducated opinion, i find the 'my name is' msg type meaningful. cuz a selfchain is a more fitting item to label, than a single msg. while msgs in a selfchain have most of the time the same handle.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-20 10:01:44 cgra: asciilifeform: since the pest getdata does, and more or less has to, bypass the staleness check, the whole checking of stales may be useless. even 'future' messages will eventually get through (even if a now omitted getdata future check was specified). OTOH, if you don't bother with checking stales, you now get more accurate reception timestamps of these badly timestamped messages, and more accurate picture of what's (been) going on
bitbot: (pest) 2022-07-16 asciilifeform[billymg]: after s.5 support worx, will be at least impossible for l2+ speaker to impersonate yer l1. which is enuff imho, to live with
cgra: asciilifeform: does this affect your intent to implement the 'chain locking', or still want it the same? if still the same, how do you view 'deterministic S-turd' approaches, like: "S-turd := HASH(S0 + chain_msg_seq_no)"?
bitbot: (pest) 2022-07-15 asciilifeform[signpost|billymg]: can't find thread atm, but at one pt suggested nixing the 'speaker' field entirely, in favour of a 'i'm x' msg type, which folx dredge outta log
cgra: fwiw, in my possibly uneducated opinion, i find the 'my name is' msg type meaningful. cuz a selfchain is a more fitting item to label, than a single msg. while msgs in a selfchain have most of the time the same handle.
cgra: asciilifeform: since the pest getdata does, and more or less has to, bypass the staleness check, the whole checking of stales may be useless. even 'future' messages will eventually get through (even if a now omitted getdata future check was specified). OTOH, if you don't bother with checking stales, you now get more accurate reception timestamps of these badly timestamped messages, and more accurate picture of what's (been) going on
shinohai: solo disponible en #pest ahora crtdaydreams
vex: I must say, it doesn't look like the cheapest hotel in town
shinohai: billymg: Got the new keys for bots over in #pest but node keeps crashing when I try to add keys with this: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=14eY ... will investigate further when back @ desk.
gregorynyssa: thimbronion: glad to see you again. I was wondering if you could send me once more your Pest details.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: thanks. I wrote a large subset of Pest in Java several months ago, but have been trying to fix "classpath" issues.
cgra: asciilifeform: when usenet-style threads come to pest, is a null netchain BM value becoming commonplace? ie. 'a new thread'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-19 16:48:19 asciilifeform: ( meanwhile, since perhaps it aint obvious, asciilifeform will explicitly remind readers : pest is arguably an atrocity, in that the Final Solution to the problem it intends to solve, is constant-time-rsa-at-line-rate. and nothing else. but this'd cost 1e9$+ to produce the required iron, and then somehow to get it to erryone who wants to play! so asciilifeform posed the question -- what subset of the desired functional
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-24 11:58:52 asciilifeform: thimbronion: recall the orig. reason why pest is using symmetric crypto, btw
asciilifeform: i.e. somehow make all speakers on a pestnet, past or present, distinguishable from any given station's pov
cgra: is the 'squaring the circle' part here that there's two conflicting (given two pestnets joining) povs, both requiring "my bob must stay bob."?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-13 12:25:42 asciilifeform: ( selfchain dun necessarily solve this , alone, as on merge of pestnets may well find that 'their' bob is 'older' )
cgra: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-13#1111437 << do you mean here that one solution would be that whoever talked in pest (whichever net) first deserves the handle? and could check from genesis message timestamp. or do you mean that "my bob must stay bob"?
cgra: asciilifeform: i suppose a gui pestron feature that reads text 'bob' on screen, but links to a distinct selfchain, worked until agreed upon, new name(s)
asciilifeform: ( selfchain dun necessarily solve this , alone, as on merge of pestnets may well find that 'their' bob is 'older' )
asciilifeform: cgra: would like to solve ~general case~ of 'all speakers on pestnet distinguishable at all times' somehow.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-24 11:51:33 asciilifeform: what asciilifeform wants is to emulate the 1 desirable aspect of a traditional centralized 'fleanode' : that the 1st user of a handle on a given pestnet can be distinguished from subsequently appearing users.
asciilifeform: and so a human joins the pestnet via, for starters, one peering. nao e.g. asciilifeform's bot is in his l3.
asciilifeform: say, anuther pestnet merges with the current one via peering one or two stations. and then same again.
asciilifeform: but if at some pt there is a pestnet of any serious size, becomes serious headache, and thus far asciilifeform not come up with anyffin but above dirty kludge even in principle to address it.
asciilifeform: the handling of handle collisions is the part of pest spec asciilifeform is least happy with atm. currently no one gives half a shit because no one has much in the way of an l2 (not even to speak of l3+)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-26 19:03:39 asciilifeform: (a) eats shit, as he's perma-distinguishable from the genuine article, except if he can cultivate a 'pet' sub-pestnet where he's the chokepoint b/w them & yours, and he's willing to impersonate $speaker erry day
asciilifeform: btw asciilifeform had notion, where in a dedicated 'gui' pestron, could display 'hash icons' which include chain info in the hash and give visible indicator of chain breakage/split
asciilifeform: hypothetically this means that a member of a pestnet could 'litter' the past. easily visible to naked eye tho, when it happens, and you can whack him over the head if need be.
bitbot: (pest) 2022-07-11 awt[billymg|signpost]: for bots, setting order_buffer_check_seconds and order_buffer_expiration_seconds to like 10 should speed things up quite a bit.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: did my best to implement the spec literally as written, but, perhaps you might find this interesting: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-11#1009305
asciilifeform: will also point out, pestron is specced in such a way as to make sense for implementation without os.
asciilifeform: hence mandated to exist in pestron.
asciilifeform: cgra: when 2+ nets merge, each will see the history of the other as a long thread (in hypothetical thread-view pestron) in the past
cgra: asciilifeform: if two pest nets join, they're going to cross-sync their histories and end up having two separate branches. if somebody was part of both nets, but separately, he's now going to have two 'genesis messages', one from each net. correct?
asciilifeform: if a message was received at some point, but aint stale yet, it absolutely must be kept in memory, for deduping.
asciilifeform: cgra: indeed separate pestnets can be joined if at least 1 peer from each form a mutual peering.
cgra: asciilifeform: did you still have this idea that separate pest nets ought to be able to join?
asciilifeform will move wg to pestnet once the moar egregious bugola in blatta solved
shinohai: crtdaydreams: I noticed some weirdness after I added you to AT, yer ip starts with `10` but %at spits back Notice(Pest): crtdaydreams 1.146.35.61:1314
phf: because from about this point http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-09#1009129 and http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-09#1008927 respective logs are a mess
crtdaydreams: pest peering info and key if interested
crtdaydreams: er, pest is barfing liquidshit like no tomorrow
crtdaydreams is running jonsykkel's smalpest
shinohai: annnnd i meant to post that to #pest
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-07 awt[asciilifeform]: 滚
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-07#1008701 << seems to work in this case at least
asciilifeform: thimbronion ftr had almost identical idea in parallel and baked an early pre-pest even before asciilifeform posted spec.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 00:39:17 phf: but also at this level of thought shaping you're basically running into the fact that there's tons of existing protocols and solutions that could be used or shoehorned or influence your decisions or whatever, and simply saying "i don't care, i'm just using pest" is a kind of gordian knot cutting
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110799 << asciilifeform walked around for many yrs looking at heathen (nominally) 'p2p' items, errywhere found some moxyesque absurdities/atrocities (e.g. acceptance of heavy memory/cpu load from strangers ; sslism; bernsteinism; and, more often than not, sham-'p2p' where some nodes
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-06 13:48:07 asciilifeform: included the irc knobs so as to remove 'blocking' problem of writing clients, guis, etc. but is certainly possible to drive a pestron via a dedicated interface w/out ircism
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-06-20 asciilifeform: had a thought recently, that just about all of the gnarly embargo buffer logic in pest protocol is only req'd because irc frontend is a 'teletype', i.e. immutable
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-07 00:36:20 phf: well, there's some ongoing conversations (though maybe i misunderstood, because didn't pay close attention), that maybe irc requirements baked in are an overhead, but you can build subset of pest that will talk to net without being spec conformant
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110807 << see also. irc frontend aint in any way fundamental to pestronics, and its inclusion in the spec is a temporary wartime measure.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110747 << if 'there are none', you've nobody to talk to, lol! but in fact not necessary for all stations (or, interestingly, even ~any~) to have static ip, so long as you can reach ~somebody~.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110728 << subj is beaten painfully, pedantically, to death in sect. 1 of spec. if after reading this still think 'wai, wtf', pestronics prolly aint for you
bitbot: (pest) 2022-07-07 signpost: 4, which is the most random of numbers.
phf: signpost: i come to you once again, to ask for a random message in pest :>
phf: signpost: hey can you post random to pest
phf: but also at this level of thought shaping you're basically running into the fact that there's tons of existing protocols and solutions that could be used or shoehorned or influence your decisions or whatever, and simply saying "i don't care, i'm just using pest" is a kind of gordian knot cutting
phf: well, there's some ongoing conversations (though maybe i misunderstood, because didn't pay close attention), that maybe irc requirements baked in are an overhead, but you can build subset of pest that will talk to net without being spec conformant
thehorrors: phf: thank you, that's what I wanted to clarify. The question that arises: what is the advantage of pest compared to other solutions in such situation?
phf: with pest, presumably, the two immediate solutions would be to host your own intermediary, or else use pestnet as your peering network
bitbot: Logged on 2022-07-06 22:23:41 thehorrors: hi asciilifeform. I was reading the pest spec. Wanted to know your thoughts about the use case for it - I can't say it is completely clear to me
vex: pest is exactly perfect for peer comms on trb
thehorrors: you know what maybe I am questioning this because I am thinking more about 1-to-1 communication and not say something like IRC channel scale. In my mind it is more about a two-address network rather than a group chat. Maybe that's the wrong use case for pest - but that's exactly what my original question was about
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-29 13:30:15 signpost: the correct social topology is human-sized, e.g. the number of reasonable pest peerings.
signpost: even just sending a pest packet to every IP in the v4 range is feasible.
thehorrors: thats my point. and the question - why have pest if there is a need for external needs that are already usable anyway? But those all need static address /unless/ you have an overlay network
thehorrors: that was the second part of my question: my understanding was that pest does not prevent the need for a static IP
thehorrors: I don't think I am asking about the fault tolerance in pest
thehorrors: hi asciilifeform. I was reading the pest spec. Wanted to know your thoughts about the use case for it - I can't say it is completely clear to me
phf: asciilifeform: in totally unrelated is your pest still on 71.114.46.117?
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-03#1110617 I'm considering taking a break from #asciilifeform and not returning until I finish my Pest implementation. I do spend a lot of time here I could use for working, and there'd be no one to complain at me then.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-03 21:16:26 vex: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-03#1008365 There's no contest. Saul is better
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-07-03 shinohai[asciilifeform]: It's hard for me to decide just yet. I'll prolly binge watch the entire series over a weekend when it's done and I'm feeling particularly lazy before I make final call.
vex: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-03#1008365 There's no contest. Saul is better
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-03 11:05:15 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-03#1110418 << asciilifeform fwiw does look fwd to witnessing pestronic snr hygiene. even if the instruments relatively blunt.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-03#1110488 << I don't think pest unplugging/gagging is materially different to irc's ignore/ban
shinohai: Anywho, got pest station back online apparently there was pipe outage while I was away.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-03#1110418 << asciilifeform fwiw does look fwd to witnessing pestronic snr hygiene. even if the instruments relatively blunt.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-03#1110369 << 'gag' tailor-made for this kinda thing. ( assuming anyone will even peer the d00d, lol )
signpost: then sure, "I'm full of plastic and pesticide" is a great reason to wait to die and let others continue.
asciilifeform recalls brief episode where somebody's deepest seekrit was that he was in fact nigerian, and terrified that anyone might find out
bitbot: (pest) 2022-06-05 asciilifeform: 'see who objects' 'will have problems'
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-29 03:16:26 vex: interesting discussion on pest re cr customs. I wonder if there are hoops available to jump through to become an import agent. also, awt has at least one capsiize under his belt; could always jump back on the proverbial horse and import via horseback
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-28 23:13:50 vex: interesting discussion on pest re cr customs. I wonder if there are hoops available to jump through to become an import agent. also, awt has at least one capsiize under his belt; could always jump back on the proverbial horse and import via horseback
vex: interesting discussion on pest re cr customs. I wonder if there are hoops available to jump through to become an import agent. also, awt has at least one capsiize under his belt; could always jump back on the proverbial horse and import via horseback
verisimilitude: If I don't finish my Pest in time, before the major shift, I'll hack this into someone's Pest so that I may build tooling around the interface anyway.
verisimilitude: My solution exposes Pest with two logs: A log of red packets and a log of packet identifiers with a count and list of peer identifiers who sent the packets; a special value enables cases in which all peers sent the packet to use constant space.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-06-20 asciilifeform: awt: theoretically could still operate a pestron via irc frontend, but perhaps the Right Thing would be for the buffer logic to live in a separate glue (given as irc offers no way to represent 'changing the past')
asciilifeform: obv can't dispensed with just yet, but protocol oughtn't to be baked ~around~ it
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-06-20 asciilifeform: ... the 'order buffer' otoh would be superfluous in a 'mutable' pestron.
asciilifeform: and the 'order buffer' thing is a kludge imho
crtdaydreams: anyone hacking a cl implementation of pest yet?
crtdaydreams: shelved til pest et cetera 'solved' i presume
asciilifeform: a desk-sized solid wood (of cheapest type) is 7-8k$ , last saw
asciilifeform: for almost all jobs (not involving microscope / smt , or , e.g. desoldering of ancient electrolytics ) it dun matter worth a damn which iron to use, cheapest worx 100% as well as 'rolls royce'
asciilifeform: ( if lost soldering iron, cheapest from ^ or whatever local shop will suffice )
asciilifeform so far quite impressed w/ 'hevea' proggy; ty again phf ! asciilifeform nao fully intends to rewrite pest doc in subj
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-06-18 asciilifeform: fugheting about illustrations for a moment, what asciilifeform was looking for is an item which generates something maximally approximating the current html form but from latex src, rather than the enfuriatingly moronic markdown
asciilifeform: meanwhile in again wholly unrelated lulz, this was purportedly achieved by some folx, 'outta matchsticks and acorns', but asciilifeform broke teeth attempting to get the megatonne of gnarly deps standing up on any of his boxen, so problem remains open.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-01 09:52:27 asciilifeform: what's needed is http over pest, where can fetch e.g. http://localhost:1337/asciilifeform/loper-os.org and it'll work for so long as asciilifeform is in yer l_n (for some n)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
asciilifeform: ... a pestronic www hosting hypothetically will give you coupla 100 (or whatever yer l3+) mirrors for phree.
crtdaydreams: It's the basis for a chat protocol XMPP which I've been thinking of using as the GUI frontend for pest
billymg: my cr box will be used for pest
asciilifeform: ... and observe that longbuffer is already not treated 'like teletype', i.e. it can be retrofilled by getdata
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-06-20 asciilifeform: had a thought recently, that just about all of the gnarly embargo buffer logic in pest protocol is only req'd because irc frontend is a 'teletype', i.e. immutable
asciilifeform: meanwhile in #p.
asciilifeform still not saw reply on own station from the helloworld, oddly
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-08 shinohai: That worked, ran /unpeer then /peer followed by /at with ip and now no double entry
billymg: for bitdash.io run with e.g. : ./download_raw_logs.sh 1006546 1006561 http://logs.bitdash.io/log-raw/pest ml.txt
billymg: asciilifeform: if you just want the lines for pest to import with eat_dump.py you can grab them from my ilog
asciilifeform: phf: bug; [x|y|z..] normally marks receipt of multiple copies of hearsay msg when >1 peer sends. which obv. aint aboutta happen on a station with 1 peer (not to mention oughta mark distinct senders)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-19 15:12:00 thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-19#1107586 << This is not true according to the experiment I ran this morning. Started up station with empty log table. After receiving one message, it synced fully in about 15 min. I then started pestbot which connected to the station and responded instantly to the first command.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-06-19 busybot[asciilifeform|asciilifeform|asciilifeform]: The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 19584.80 USD
phf: can someone explain the mechanism behind the naming in http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-06-19#1000562 i assume the [xx|xx|xx] is hearsay going through xx, but why would it go through asciilifeform three times?
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-19#1107586 << This is not true according to the experiment I ran this morning. Started up station with empty log table. After receiving one message, it synced fully in about 15 min. I then started pestbot which connected to the station and responded instantly to the first command.
thimbronion: shinohai: are you absolutely certain your bot is running the latest version? I deleted the pestbot db and started a sync from scratch. Already past all the uniturds with no crashes. Also I noticed you went offline when I sent some uniturds this morning.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: i left the pestron to sync, but seems to have stopped getdata'ing after bot dropped
asciilifeform: i'ma unplug the pestnet dulapbot nao, cuz this is getting ridiculous.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: atm firehose of ancient replay straight into dulapbot's log
asciilifeform: in other noose. ( not imported billymg's log just yet, nor his reader.py patch; but still sumthing )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-06 13:43:52 asciilifeform: signpost: would be handy to have it in #a (which asciilifeform plans to keep around as a n00b door, until figures out a way to cleanly bridge an irc door to pestnet) but not essential imho
bitbot: (pest) 2022-06-08 asciilifeform: awt: was thinking about a hypothetical blatta mod for emplacing e.g. a n00b gate in place of dulapnet;
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-17#1107311 << let's say we wanna permit e.g. '$', to mark folx folx connecting via luser gates.
asciilifeform: ( 3.2.4 )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-17#1107300 << ignoring for a moment the cpu cost of the bitstuffing crackpottery -- there's such a thing as word alignment; observe that (almost) all data structures in pest are aligned
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-16 22:06:44 asciilifeform: thimbronion et al : yer latest test appears to have made pestnet uninhabitable until the decoding idiocy fixed -- asciilifeform's station dies immed. on getdata ( tried 3x nao )
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-16#1107240 << incidentally was not my test but when billymg quoted smilies into #pest. Initially only killed those directly connected to the logbot. Then when asciilifeform and billymg updated with the fix, they spread the contagion.
asciilifeform: thimbronion et al : yer latest test appears to have made pestnet uninhabitable until the decoding idiocy fixed -- asciilifeform's station dies immed. on getdata ( tried 3x nao )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 18:16:06 asciilifeform: phf: arguably there's an unnecessary barb in current protocol, where netchain is unused for direct msg sessions -- really oughta be treated as simply special case of broadcast in that sense, where netchain includes the 2 parties strictly
adlai|text has been procrastinating studying pestnet, mostly due to the impression that the spec was still a draft, and clients still only rough prototypes
adlai|text: my impression from skimming logs is that migration to pestnet is underway, despite the spec still officially being a moving target?