Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-01-17 | 2022-01-19 → ↓
signpost: this happens now and again in the "muh liberty" states. NH had one recently too
signpost: "national divorce" also getting chattered about moar in social media
signpost: pretty clever propaganda term there, imho.
signpost: mats: honestly I think we get poorer and bitch loudly, and other than provincial wars in places like ukraine, not much happens.
signpost: also not clear to me that GOP is done. covid policy was bungled enough to maybe soften up a few purple-ish places.
PeterL: I don't see how you can say "GOP is done", a % or two swing in a couple states last election and they would still be in control.
PeterL: the media always finds ways to divide people along mostly meaningless issues so that we end up with interesting 50/50 splits in the electorate that make the elections seem really exciting
PeterL: asciilifeform: why do you set a minimum of 3 for the Speaker length?
PeterL: pest 0xfb section 3.2.4. Do all handles and peer names also have this limitation?
asciilifeform: PeterL: what min. length would you prefer ( & wai ) ?
asciilifeform: PeterL: correct, all 'Speaker' values
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-17 23:52:39 mats: congress is a lame duck now and probably after midterms, and gop is demographically on the ropes
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-03-28 asciilifeform: y'know, as a boy, i was playing with other boyz in the yard and mentioned съезд кпсс , and they laughed. i learned lesson - for life.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-03-28 asciilifeform: and the american съезд кпсс is ~equally influential and interesting as the original.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-17#1073655 << already solidly 1party, and has been for many yrs
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-17 23:54:53 mats: gop will be fucked even w/o voter rights bills, so is the future civil war or one party statehood?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-17#1073656 << lemme guess, on twatter? (i.e. the same place the diabetics will 'fight civil wars')
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-17 23:56:48 mats: congresspeople are actively discussing national divorce on public fora, but how, and i srsly doubt a country with 40% overweight and diabetic citizens going to do any fighting
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073661 << correct, the 1 and only thing that actually happens. (observe that even the 'provincial wars' dun actually end w/ a 'win')
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 00:16:44 signpost: mats: honestly I think we get poorer and bitch loudly, and other than provincial wars in places like ukraine, not much happens.
PeterL: Why do you need a minimum over 1? even here we have d4 with only 2 characters?
asciilifeform: PeterL: picture tab completion in a chan w/ dozen or so single-char nicks lol
jonsykkel: i agre cant see good reason for enforcing minimum len > 1
jonsykkel: tabbing can jsut patch ircclient to ignure singlechar nicks
asciilifeform put considerable effort concretely into ~not having to patch his irc clients~
asciilifeform: if errybody seems to want 1char nicks ( thimbronion ? signpost ? ) will amend that sect. in 0xfa , then.
asciilifeform: imho 1-2ch niks are lame.
jonsykkel: isnt long term plan is to rip out irc part of guts entirely anyway?
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: long term
asciilifeform doesn't expect to see a usable pure-pest client any time soon
jonsykkel: they are indeed lame, but plenty of other lame nick constructions "aaaaaaaaaaaaa" etc
asciilifeform: for this reason
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-06 20:00:22 asciilifeform: cuz to date i've not seen a term proggy from which can select e.g. page of text and then paste w/out linebreak pollution
asciilifeform: it'd have to be a x11 proggy, and asciilifeform doesn't know anyone who writes these, and dun have time to do w/ own hands
asciilifeform: it's why went through effort to glue pest to irc moar or less cleanly.
asciilifeform: specifically so that could use e.g. xchat.
jonsykkel: sure
jonsykkel: another idea could be to have peer specific knob for "display name" or smth that pestron uses when displaying msgs to operator console (could simply be bool like - always display messages from this peer using first handle in H)
jonsykkel: wats rong with that
asciilifeform: you go then to manually examine logs / debug dumps / etc and go 'wtf'
asciilifeform: names -- canonical.
asciilifeform: i suppose if one insists on 'display asciilifeform as 'bozo clown' in local console) -- can implement locally, asciilifeform cannot stop him
asciilifeform: but nfi wai this misfeature gotta be in spec
asciilifeform: it has 0 to do w/ protocol
jonsykkel: point was jsut to avoid arbitrary limit on speaker name
jonsykkel: but i se point about names being canonical etc
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: re 'remap' -- there's an arithmetical issue : atm peer can have >1 handle
asciilifeform: if you remap all of'em in console to 'bozo' -- what happens when you tabcomp. and address 'bozo' ? on the emitter end
asciilifeform: to which nick then maps back?
jonsykkel: ah ye
asciilifeform: btw the >1 nick thing is concretely to allow changing of nicks
asciilifeform: (which'd otherwise be ~impossible)
jonsykkel: yep makes sense
asciilifeform: very few things in the spec are there because asciilifeform threw a dart
asciilifeform: (the '3 chars' thing is perhaps the only solid example of these)
asciilifeform: for the most part spent over9000 thinking re implications
asciilifeform: (can't guarantee that not missed any, tho)
billymg: mirror of the pest spec now updated to 0xFB
asciilifeform: ty billymg !
jonsykkel: minimizing # of darts is good
jonsykkel: re: "64-bit monotonic epoch clock" << if the clock can be synced how can it be monotonic? afaik unix looking stuff generally has CLOCK_MONOTONIC whcih cannot be set by user adn some other CLOCKS that can be set
jonsykkel: also "fixed-point"?
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: monotonic clocks are synced by adjusting speed while retaining fwd motion
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: fixedpoint, i.e. integer
jonsykkel: in my hed fixed point is like u assign some # of bits to be fractional part of number
asciilifeform will s/fixedpoint/integer in the spec , tho afaik the current usage conforms to tradition
jonsykkel: idk i guess it is technically a fixedpoint with point all the way to "right"
asciilifeform enjoying billymg's prettyprinted 0xfb. if only asciilifeform knew how to make own www actually display like these
jonsykkel: aha seems COCK_MONOTONIC_RAW is the one that isnt affected at al by ntp. didnt know about the speed adjust thing
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: what matters there is not 'never adjusted' but 'never moves backwards'
jonsykkel: indeed
asciilifeform: adjustment via periodically slowing/stopping is a-ok
jonsykkel: makes sense
asciilifeform: (is how ntpism typically adjusts when drift)
whaack: pretty sure fixedpoint has a clear math meaning... x | f(x) = x
jonsykkel: what does | mean in mathspeak tho
asciilifeform: whaack: 'fixed point of function'. diff. animal
billymg: why ty asciilifeform, glad you like it
billymg: does anyone here know how to get a firefox built and running on a musl system? wasn't anticipating this hiccup
whaack: | is "such that" iirc
asciilifeform: billymg: iirc signpost has 1, may be able to dig up recipe when he wakes
PeterL: tab completion: if you want to talk to a, then you don't need tab completion. If you want abner then you will have to supply "ab". you already need to type a couple characters to differentiate scoopbot from signpost
asciilifeform: PeterL: can't speak for erryone, but asciilifeform has 'muscle memory' tab compl. for erry ln
asciilifeform: ( and historically quite frustrated w/ irctrons, e.g. would like to be able to encode 'it's NEVER scoopbot i'm talking to, stop offering it' )
whaack: billymg: yes that pestmirror looks great! bitdash is coming along
billymg: ty whaack
whaack: why don't you remove 'v' and 'faq' from the menu on the homepage / put something there?
shinohai: billymg: Iffn' you emerge newer FF, be mindful it requires the "Rust" abomination ......
asciilifeform: btw dunno whether noted this, but 0xfc and 0xfb vpatches include the www graphic svg. who wants, can fiddle w/ it
billymg: shinohai: already successfully emerged rust, that built fine on the first try (was enormous though)
whaack: rust is the religion of newbie programmers
jonsykkel: personal forks of small simple spermanent softwares (suckless style) is how the ancient greeks would compute if they had computers
billymg: i thought building ff would be easy after that, but fails mysteriously with "(no error message)"
shinohai: s/newbie/troons/g
whaack had to urban dictionary troon, brutal
jonsykkel: any problems like irctron tab completion not behaving 100% like want goes away with 3line patch to code
shinohai: But iirc KISS linux use musl, there might be a FF recipe published by them though dunno tbh.
asciilifeform: indeed jonsykkel . but 'go and find' those 3ln, and 'go and build' the megalith after
jonsykkel: indeed, but why is it a megalith in first place
jonsykkel: megalith is cuz implemeneted every single feature request ever so anyone can use soft without modifications
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: strictly because misarchitected.
jonsykkel: (which is an immpossible goal to begin with, so in "technologically advanced cases" u have disgusting scripting langs bolted to prog)
billymg: shinohai: aha, found a binary ff yanked from KISS in this overlay, will give this a shot
shinohai: Of possible interest to those who want "classic" FF without Rust shit: https://www.basilisk-browser.org/
shinohai keeping eye on this .....
asciilifeform: shinohai: have you tried building ^ ?
shinohai: asciilifeform: About year ago built for armv7 and worked fine. (tbh so many irons in fire I haven't had chance to revisit)
shinohai: Still using un-googled chromium atm :/
jonsykkel: re naggum quote: not sure i understand, i fail to imagine how to get sufficient flexibility in design but that doesnt end up involving horrific script tumors growing out of prog, in which case the scripts become part of the program anyway, and then whats the difference? maybe should read that linked usenet thread tho
jonsykkel: imo makes perfect sense in corectly architected ancient greek software to have configuration == modify source (most of the time only topmost layers of code pyramid need to be touched)
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: i'd rather have 'script tumours' a la emacs than a multi-GB ff-like turd
thimbronion: ok my winter break is officially over. back to work.
asciilifeform: wb thimbronion
asciilifeform looks fwd to thimbronion's comments on 0xfb
thimbronion: asciilifeform: not sure exactly how to tackle that. I think I may just have to reread the whole thing.
jonsykkel: multigb ffturds 100%cancer agreed, unrelated to point im trying to make tho. maybe following mspaint diagram can help illustrate distinction im talking about http://zzz.st/up/m6y5UhDa/soft.png
asciilifeform: thimbronion: at this pt makes moar sense to read whole thing, imho, fiddled w/ just about errything
jonsykkel: tried reading vpatch first but also found rereading makes more sense
jonsykkel: easy to spot where new stuf is anyway
asciilifeform: vpatch sadly quite obese, cuz touched just about erry ln
thimbronion: signpost: you ever figure out a way to get a readable version of the pest spec onto a remarkable?
asciilifeform: hm thimbronion they dun eat html?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 << this is imho fundamentally correct. however must observe that the 'suckless' approach doesn't actually generalize, because 'unix philosophy' is actually braindamaged: proggies other than simple text stream cmdline items dun actually compose meaningfully
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 12:29:44 jonsykkel: multigb ffturds 100%cancer agreed, unrelated to point im trying to make tho. maybe following mspaint diagram can help illustrate distinction im talking about http://zzz.st/up/m6y5UhDa/soft.png
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 11:23:14 jonsykkel: personal forks of small simple spermanent softwares (suckless style) is how the ancient greeks would compute if they had computers
asciilifeform: ... and even when they do, require massive i/o massage because of gnarly format divergences
asciilifeform: (hence 'perlisms')
thimbronion: asciilifeform: pdf and epub afaik
jonsykkel: maybe thats true, but im not convinced the approach doesnt generalize if built on top of something else than unix os layer (wat exactly that woudl be is a interesting question)
jonsykkel: unix seems to be missing some "types of pipe". like u have in back of a rack diffrent types of wires depending on wat is transmitted connecting stuff
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073684 << nah this seems useless, and I will be annoyed to refer to someone as e.g. z
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 10:15:45 asciilifeform: if errybody seems to want 1char nicks ( thimbronion ? signpost ? ) will amend that sect. in 0xfa , then.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 10:16:03 jonsykkel: isnt long term plan is to rip out irc part of guts entirely anyway?
signpost: what one wants in the future pulled forward to justify accumulating debt today is the cultural heirloom of the nation of walmart
signpost: gotta build from first principles outward, starting with what's in one's hands, imho.
whaack: !e view-tx 1337 0
whaack: signpost: yesterday paste.deedbot.org wasn't loading, sorry for not being clear
whaack: did you see my note re view-txn and view-tx?
signpost: I didn't; where was it?
bitbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 00:57:28 whaack: signpost: i renamed view-txn to view-tx, i think you were linking to txs in deedbot nowadays, the link will need to be updated
signpost: ah, ty
signpost: links seem to still work; I might be linking via your search
whaack: where do you link?
whaack: signpost: ah you are using the shorthand, so that still works
signpost: what'd be the proper link? prepend view-tx ?
signpost: cool, that will be updated on my end in a few minutes.
whaack: nice
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073741 << my gentoo x11+musl stack of chairs hasn't been tended in a bit, shifted to building up another from iron when I hit tilt on the number of things I had to cut and cauterize.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 11:19:27 asciilifeform: billymg: iirc signpost has 1, may be able to dig up recipe when he wakes
signpost: not yet to X on the new item; however, historically I've dug up musl patches in either Alpine Linux APKBUILDs or gentoo's musl overlay git repo.
signpost: ah feck
billymg: fwiw just tried this one and it seems to work so far
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 11:28:59 billymg: shinohai: aha, found a binary ff yanked from KISS in this overlay, will give this a shot
signpost: billymg: ah ok. yeah, cutting hydra heads in this can be a chore.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073819 << x took 4evah (and wasn't even on a musl), asciilifeform blew last yr just about an entire 3wk vacation on just x
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 13:17:22 signpost: not yet to X on the new item; however, historically I've dug up musl patches in either Alpine Linux APKBUILDs or gentoo's musl overlay git repo.
asciilifeform: ( dulap-gentoo )
signpost: found also that on my own distro simply plonking down some source and running ./configure or equiv often yields a less dep-entangled build than -fuck -your -mother -already on gentoo
asciilifeform: indeed, in fact had to build it exactly like that
asciilifeform: 1 idjit dep at a time
signpost: speaking of musl-lolz, user-mode linux has a ptrace b00g on it, doesn't work.
jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073798 << for sure. in context however my point was just that not wanting patch irc client is a bad reason to impose somwhat arbitrary restrictions at protocol lvl. no debt accumulated
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 13:05:00 signpost: what one wants in the future pulled forward to justify accumulating debt today is the cultural heirloom of the nation of walmart
signpost bonked into this last night, and asked himself what the fuck he wanted a whole kernel for when had static binaries for everything.
signpost: n00bs can just run w/e in a chroot if they feel like, don't need the kernel for anything.
signpost: jonsykkel: I can't argue with that principle.
asciilifeform: signpost: properly-build stuff (i.e. w/out dynamism at all) dun even need chroot
asciilifeform: ( 'M' is a handy example, 0 linking at all )
signpost: asciilifeform: trying to balance not requiring things of the host in re: fs layout, indeed not needed for any libs
asciilifeform: rotor-trb is anuther
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073791 << iirc 'epub' is simply a ball of html in a zip
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 12:46:39 thimbronion: asciilifeform: pdf and epub afaik
asciilifeform: ( e.g. ru b00kw4r3z often found in said format )
signpost: jonsykkel: there is another principle that perhaps applies, not opening up more fronts of war than capacity to fight.
signpost: if the restriction yields degrees of freedom today, and later can be removed with zero cost once UI clients had, sensible compromise imho.
signpost: at any rate not a big deal, just the philosophical values behind the decisions are interesting to discuss.
signpost: by degrees of freedom I mean to the meat puppet behind the keyboard, that he has more options than had before, not degrees of freedom of the software.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 16:24:16 asciilifeform: feels rather 'meh' re the warts of irc compat. but the alternative would've been 'need guisms on N os' and 'need all new bots' before can even experiment w/ prototype -- which asciilifeform maintains is unpalatable.
jonsykkel: not entirely zero cost if d4 has to pick another handle until then (msgs with tmp nick forever in chain). and yeah i dont care about this specific detail to be clear, doesnt make any diff for me. is principles behind decisions that are interesting as u say
asciilifeform: it's sad but troo, well-behaved guism on existing os is in fact over9000x harder than e.g. writing a kernel and compiler.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-03 18:30:39 asciilifeform: fucked with 'wx', 'qt', bought the fucking books, worked through all known public examples of anyffin even vaguely resembling hypertext editors, tried with raw x11, # of misc. horrors. all to 0 useful result.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-06 20:10:57 asciilifeform: what asciilifeform wants is full-fledged x11 proggy, where interface not distinguishable in any way, other than the 1 described, from adult text editor. e.g. has scroll bars, supports mouse wheel, mouse selection, unmutilated cut'n'paste, arbitrary (incl. var width) fonts, and 0 gigantic wads of legacy shitcoad.
signpost: jonsykkel: some dood going by deefour for a bit is better than an infinite regress of intolerables resulting later in inaction.
asciilifeform: !q seen d4
dulapbot: d4 last seen here on 2022-01-04 04:44:14: dot (graphviz) is useful.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff can't be arsed to write in an 'ohnoez, plz dun make min.handle 3 chars'
signpost: in some ways more obvious now, the first attempt at republic had this conceit, "and once the world has bowed before the unfurling of our cocks, then we'll..."
signpost: cannot be allowed again. step by step, each step digestible and in its proper time.
asciilifeform moar of the 'save yerself and others around you will be saved'(tm)(r) and 'the salvation of the drowning is work for the hands of the drowning'(tm)(r)(east church) school of thought
signpost: mhm.
asciilifeform: 0 world conquest req'd.
asciilifeform: imho The Right Thing comes in that shape and strictly that shape.
asciilifeform solidly woke up to mp's terminal brain rot when fella introduced the 'gns' idjicy
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-11-02 17:28:16 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024159 << asciilifeform strongly suspects that all thinking folx are doomed to eventually reinvent p2p hosting . ( trickier -- to actually make it go. and w/out reintroducing centralizations, as in e.g. mp's ludicrous 'gns' power grab propo
asciilifeform: ( recall ? 'let's bake usg.dns all over again' etc )
signpost: yes, but it roots with me y'see.
signpost: let's pull it all the way back to republic, with monarch, eh?
signpost: cults must cause adherents to internalize a contradiction; it permits arbitrary command.
asciilifeform: monarchs oughta refrain from substance abuse imho, lol
signpost doesn't even spit on cult, but there's the mechanism.
asciilifeform: mechanism is over9000y old, aha
signpost: "work, despite death" is a contradiction of the same form
asciilifeform: it worx until moar gravel than gear in the gearbox.
whaack: thimbronion: do you still have that republic-blog search engine online:
whaack: ?*
thimbronion: whaack: no it's down
whaack: that tool was useful, will be happy to help out if there's some work required to bring it back online.
signpost: seriously useful item.
signpost: search across wot n-levels deep into broader internet would kick the shit out of google.
thimbronion: whaack: ok. I think basically I just didn't point the bot here. Then there were the issues of scraping all the webshit off the results. I made some progress there with the lisp version.
thimbronion: last issue I recall with the lisp version was that I couldn't get indexes working in pg as I would expect, and so searches were very slow.
whaack: i was thinking of a blog search engine, where blogs are organized into a tree structure, where each blog is a node, and one's own blog starts as the root node. each blog has a blogroll (ideally w/ standard format) , and each link in the blogroll represents a child node, the search engine starts at your own blog, and then goes down the tree , prioritizing results closer to your blogroll
asciilifeform: pestronic search of pestronically-hosted www's would be a++
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
whaack: ofc. this requires each person to have their own local search engine that runs on a server, constantly crawling and indexing, but that's really how it should be if one can afford it.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: incidentally I was able to get a decently formatted pdf version of the pest spec with working links onto my remarkable. Now to actually read.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: a++
asciilifeform: whaack: well not 'constantly' crawling, but when text actually changes.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-02-18 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
asciilifeform: it's rather like imitating microshit's approach to os
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073784 << I use their browser extension, which transits their own webshitware to get to the device.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 12:34:15 thimbronion: signpost: you ever figure out a way to get a readable version of the pest spec onto a remarkable?
signpost: afaik there's a way to scp them on directly, but haven't bothered since I'm reading public items on the thing, and it has a closed-blob firmware anyway
asciilifeform had nfi there were tabletrons w/out sumthing like ordinary www browser
asciilifeform has various ones, and sometimes even proofreads e.g. pestism on'em, and all that's req'd is to simply load the url in browser
thimbronion: signpost: my problem was mainly formatting - the default conversion to pdf ened up looking like an inch wide solid column and was all on one page
thimbronion: asciilifeform: remarkable 2 has no browser, but is truly excellent for writing shit down and marking up documents.
asciilifeform: seems like very strange omission, the browser
asciilifeform: ( i suppose b/c no obv. place to stuff the annotations in the latter? )
signpost: it's a really low-power device, possibly tried and chewed through battery too quickly.
asciilifeform annotates on dead tree
signpost: http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/ << folks grunting out a free firmware for it, haven't tried.
whaack: i'm considering adding segshit support to the blockexplorer, with the caveat that any lookup to a segshit address will display a warning in the browser, on one hand it seems the wrong thing because it removes the 'purity' of the block explorer, on the other hand i want this to be a useful tool, and in my real world experience of doing btc otc there is a large customer base that are either going to
whaack: send or receive coins using '3' or 'bc1' addresses, and being unable to view their heathen addresses without going to a heathen block explorer will be a hinderance
asciilifeform: whaack: what's req'd for segshit etc. parsing ?
asciilifeform: (wouldntcha need to get the bloat-blox somewhere?)
whaack: asciilifeform: i am pretty sure i just need to decode the '3' or 'bc1' addresss into its locking script, then do the lookup via the locking script
asciilifeform: right but iirc the script per se aint in a trb 1e6byte block neh
whaack: i'm just decoding it as it is interpreted in a trb block
asciilifeform: a, as 'anyonecanspend' ?
whaack: yes
whaack: gives us the ability to see this 'anyonecanspend' address has .01 btc
asciilifeform: imho then a-ok. i.e. for so long as the browser shows the segshit from trb pov
whaack: absolutely
whaack: the only non-trb perspective is the 'decoding' of the address
asciilifeform: i duns see wainot to decode anyonecanspends
asciilifeform: whether segshitistic or earlier ones
asciilifeform: for so long as they are clearly marked for what they are
whaack: the reason would be from a strategic pov, that is adding 'enemy notation' into own program
asciilifeform: not rly -- trb entirely supports 'anyoen can spend'
asciilifeform still not sure whether the oddball 3x etc addrs decode into sumthing meaningful to a trb noad, i.e. w/out the segshit crapola that aint in trb blox, tho
asciilifeform: (if they do -- nuffin wrong w/ decoding'em )
whaack: asciilifeform: i'm not sure either, i'm riding on the assumption that i can get the scriptPubkey as seen by trb, from the 'bc1' and '3' addys
asciilifeform: wainot try
whaack: and trb supports anyonecanspend but not 'bc1' notation
asciilifeform insufficiently up to date re prb formats to answr
asciilifeform: obv. it dun eat the prb addrs directly
asciilifeform: q is whether can map'em onto contents of trb blox w/out the segshit extension datas
whaack: my intuition is 99.9% one can, because prb has to be able to create the trb compat scriptPubkey from just the address
whaack: either case i'm saving this for post-genesis patch
d4: asciilifeform: jonsykkel: PeterL: I'm sorry, I've missed most of the conversation here. What is this about? Nicknames length? What should be the minimum in your opinion?
asciilifeform: have you read any of the pest thrds, d4 ?
d4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073680 << This happens. You can't stop birthday attacks on your tab completion. You are talking about a client feature from my perspective. A UX feature, not a protocol feature.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 10:11:14 asciilifeform: PeterL: picture tab completion in a chan w/ dozen or so single-char nicks lol
d4: Aside from that, it's up the IRC server deciding wheter a nick is valid. So the Pest server can reject IRC client connecting with a nick that doesn't conform. ie. [this] or `fun`
[this]: I mean this
`fun`: And this
`: jonsykkel: fight me.
asciilifeform: well yes it rejects, per spec
asciilifeform: proposed min is 3.
asciilifeform was picturing, 'suppose pestnets schismed over min. nick len. which side of the wall would asciilifeform want to sit on'
asciilifeform: atm loox like we have d4 (who i've nfi who is..?) on 1, and... errybody else on other
asciilifeform: other thing is, imho folx scrambling to 'reserve' short nicks results in gnarly conv logs
asciilifeform: (recall that a handle must be unique on a given net)
d4: Supposing I accept IRC-like nick names and distribute software faster then you can, I may split the pestnetwork having the inclusive one being able to write both the IRC-like nick and the strict pest nick. Just saying tho
asciilifeform: d4: asciilifeform aint competing in 'user count olympics' tho
asciilifeform: ( pest ftr aint gonna win that olympics, if d4 reads spec will probably understand why )
signpost: he's going to beat you with inclusiveness asciilifeform
d4: Then again you didn't reply to my question.
asciilifeform doesn't actually find the 'min nick len' q ultra-interesting, but finds fascinating the kind of thinking it can apparently provoke
asciilifeform: d4: very obv. anyone can take the protocol and fiddle in arbitrary ways , incl. incompat. ones, or even make up an entirely new thing vaguely suggested by the old
asciilifeform: this aint a concern of asciilifeform's tho
d4: >I'm sorry, I've missed most of the conversation here. What is this about?
d4: You pointed me just to the nick len
asciilifeform: d4: replacement for irc, already in use, and expected to eventually replace dulapnet, on which we are presently speaking
asciilifeform: d4: 2 prototypes already published. etc
verisimilitude: I agree that having an unnatural minimum name length, that being anything but one, is stupid.
asciilifeform orig. wrote down '1', then thought 'what will be reaction if 3'
signpost: the assertion that it's stupid oughta carry with it the reasoning.
verisimilitude: It's unnatural.
verisimilitude: That's to mean it's completely arbitrary.
signpost: that is not reasoning lol
asciilifeform: and conv. where errybody goes by single char. is 'natural' ?
verisimilitude: Yes, because that's the natural minimum.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ever walk into a room and 'hi, i'm 'a'' ?
verisimilitude: One can't go lower.
asciilifeform: 'hey my name is 9'
signpost: verisimilitude: see, ya finally macroexpanded natural, at least.
asciilifeform: 'why good evening, mr. _ '
verisimilitude: Anything undesirable shouldn't be allowed, by construction.
signpost: oughta be more beatings for bare assertion, as though the foundation is democracy and grunt of a vote is sufficient.
verisimilitude: Care for an example?
signpost: verisimilitude: nonsense, to whom
signpost: this is just lazy belief that democracy is foundational, rather than a construction.
verisimilitude: Democracy sucks.
signpost: we agree.
verisimilitude: We're not voting on this; asciilifeform clearly is the most important person regarding Pest, but I don't find it wise to enforce such a queer requirement.
verisimilitude: Again and rephrased, I find it important to remove the ability to express things I dislike, in systems I design.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: asciilifeform very much open to argument re knobs in spec, hence why always prods folx 'plz comment'
verisimilitude: I've not yet been able to read the latest revision, but would enjoy having something valuable to comment.
asciilifeform: i.e. trying to encourage folx to develop their heads, rather than nod along as in ye olde house of mp
d4: asciilifeform: you should have pointed me here instead... don't mind at my lazyness, I'm tired.
verisimilitude: I recall what asciilifeform asked me, now.
signpost: d4: one has to mind at it.
signpost: if one's to have "public matters", i.e. men thinking together rather than in silos.
asciilifeform: d4: i rec to read whole thing if you can find 1h or so. highly doubt you'll be entirely bored.
signpost: it's impersonal even, the objection that restrictions which can be lower ought is defensible.
signpost: oughta defend it.
signpost still firmly a republican, and this is what it means.
d4: I read the first two revision. I will find the time, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: d4: plz dun hesitate to write in w/ errata, comments, qs
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-02 23:32:35 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-31#1070708 << if he'd bitten it from vodka (as was asciilifeform's orig. expectation) or old age, would read differently ?
signpost: verisimilitude: why so? in all three cases, nature ate a mortal.
verisimilitude: The point is that it was interesting to read about how Bitcoin and TMSR was going to destroy the USG, only for Neptune to decide against that.
verisimilitude: Once the man behind an idea like that dies, the idea looks even sillier.
signpost: marx died, didn't seem to stop the wind from the sails. on the contrary.
verisimilitude: Well, at least Communism has a large death toll. I'm not aware of anyone killed by TMSR.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073888 My website linking is perhaps similar to this described setup. Also, take a look at this, whaack: https://search.marginalia.nu
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 13:48:54 whaack: i was thinking of a blog search engine, where blogs are organized into a tree structure, where each blog is a node, and one's own blog starts as the root node. each blog has a blogroll (ideally w/ standard format) , and each link in the blogroll represents a child node, the search engine starts at your own blog, and then goes down the tree , prioritizing results closer to your blogroll
signpost: verisimilitude: the point you glossed over is marx having died before he saw any of it.
signpost expects he will be dead before crypto-republicanism lives too, or at best being very old.
verisimilitude: That's fair enough, but excuse me for not believing TMSR will amount to anything by now.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: linked prev
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-06 12:32:54 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in wholly unrelated finds.
signpost: verisimilitude: there is no TMSR now; how can it be otherwise.
verisimilitude: I recognized it for what it was, and am glad I didn't embed myself into it deeply enough to move countries, or something else.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the folx who moved dun seem to regret, fwiw
signpost: neither do the folks who spent time in a space more philosophicall coherent than where they fell out of their mothers.
verisimilitude: I'm to believe thou hadst considered moving, and am glad to have chosen otherwise, right, asciilifeform?
signpost: *philosophically
signpost: verisimilitude: and I'll remind you as I said above, that living itself is a pointless enterprise. so what?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'd defo still move if found a spare 1e7$ in sofa cushions lol
verisimilitude: So what indeed, signpost. Be there anything else to write, now?
signpost: one's failures informing the present day wastes nothing.
verisimilitude: I'm curious; was Mircea Popescu fluent in Latin?
thimbronion: I find this theme of "oh they moved countries and then mp died" thing hilarious. O shit I'm living in paradise, what nao!?!! As if anyone expected mp to stay there anyway.
verisimilitude: I misread the situation, apparently.
signpost figured mp would die "young" fwiw. seen the party til you puke spiral many times.
signpost: and what great benefit I have to both have experienced TMSR, and understood how it failed.
signpost: wasted nothing at all.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i dun recall anyone moving so could moar easily visit mp et al. BingoBoingo moved to set up piz in uy; iirc whaack moved because likes beaches
verisimilitude: I now recall what I wanted to discuss more.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073772 This is the realization I've also made, but I'm more motivated by not allowing the implementation language to have any influence on the program's semantics, jonsykkel.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 11:53:55 jonsykkel: imo makes perfect sense in corectly architected ancient greek software to have configuration == modify source (most of the time only topmost layers of code pyramid need to be touched)
verisimilitude: I yearn to make a particular program of mine as brief as possible, so that I can justify this approach, and avoid providing any real interfaces for modifications.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073788 The homosexual tendencies of Greeks apparently have been grossly exaggerated, jonsykkel, so don't be so certain about that.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 12:38:50 dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 11:23:14 jonsykkel: personal forks of small simple spermanent softwares (suckless style) is how the ancient greeks would compute if they had computers
verisimilitude: The Suckless idiots hate complicated software just long enough to stop at the C language and UNIX. If they truly valued what they claim to value, they'd write truly simple software.
signpost: bwahaha
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073786 I was subscribed to their mailing list for a time, and got to watch them discuss colours. The cols program, to columnate output, is a shining example of the ``UNIX philosophy'' but lo, it can't handle colour codes without explicit support; they decided colours were bloat, to solve this problem.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 12:38:49 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 << this is imho fundamentally correct. however must observe that the 'suckless' approach doesn't actually generalize, because 'unix philosophy' is actually braindamaged: proggies other than simple text stream cmdline items dun actually compose meaningfully
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: prolly you noticed, but there's a rather conspicuous lack of ~with what~ to write simple softs.
verisimilitude: I like mine so far, but it's not for everything.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i like mine also, say, but ditto
asciilifeform: there's no magical cure for ~50y of idjit iron/os.
verisimilitude: There's, but we don't have access to nuclear weapons or enough bullets.
asciilifeform: eh that's only half a cure
asciilifeform: somebody still has to bake correct items.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: curious about the provenance of the term "station" in the spec - just obvious 2-way radio analogy, or has the term been used before in a p2p context?
signpost: and the victors would have to burn weeds in their own heads for generations.
verisimilitude: My proposal to build a better society and punish these idiots for harming computing so badly, such as, say, by burying them to their necks in an ant mound, likely wouldn't be well-received, either.
signpost: without this revolutionaries unconsciously recreate the forms with which they're familiar.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: whole thing conceived with 'radio mindset'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 14:51:52 asciilifeform: over e.g. shortwave, yes, we'll 'errythign to erryone', but there it doesn't cost nearly so much given that there's a single stream.
signpost: USSR had another tsar in what, 50yrs?
asciilifeform: signpost: immed.
signpost: probably so, yeah.
asciilifeform: orcs never departed from 'eastern despotism' (in 'civ1' terminology)
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073793 << this feature was attempted in Windows PowerShell.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 12:49:00 jonsykkel: unix seems to be missing some "types of pipe". like u have in back of a rack diffrent types of wires depending on wat is transmitted connecting stuff
asciilifeform: (nor ever particularly wanted to)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:14:31 signpost: without this revolutionaries unconsciously recreate the forms with which they're familiar.
signpost: when the "our democracies" fail, derps will still have the reddit upvoats in the void where a soul should be.
signpost: and reddit will reincarnate.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: historically revolutionaries dun even ~try~ to 'depart from familiar forms'. typically simply 'old thing, but with us in driver seat'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 13:40:45 asciilifeform: ( recall ? 'let's bake usg.dns all over again' etc )
asciilifeform: not even necessarily a bad thing, elites have finite useful life & their periodic replacement can reboot a dying civ
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074063 << according to Carroll Quigley, the root of Oriental Despotism lies in the mass-inability to distinguish between the concept of "society" and "government."
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:15:43 asciilifeform: orcs never departed from 'eastern despotism' (in 'civ1' terminology)
signpost: gregory5: how do you distinguish them?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:17:31 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: historically revolutionaries dun even ~try~ to 'depart from familiar forms'. typically simply 'old thing, but with us in driver seat'
asciilifeform: gregory5: asciilifeform was not able to stomach quigley, on acct. of critical mass of howlers in text, so cannot comment in detail
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:15:36 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i picked up quigley and was not impressed. much dead forest, very little said.
signpost: asciilifeform: quite likely this wheel is all humans can do, and quite good to let it turn.
asciilifeform: gregory5: however, strikes as nonsensical imho, in e.g. ru very much existed a concept of (village-sized) 'society' quite distinct from ruling vertical
verisimilitude: The UNIX pipe is neither original nor particularly useful. It's making a human centipede with programs, and it's a particularly stupid incarnation of the mathematical idea.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:16:46 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074056 I call these insidious optimizations, signpost.
verisimilitude: I appreciate it, signpost.
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074076 << I might not be the best at doing so personally.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:19:32 signpost: gregory5: how do you distinguish them?
verisimilitude: Recognizing these was a particularly nice realization for me.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:20:01 signpost: asciilifeform: quite likely this wheel is all humans can do, and quite good to let it turn.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-10 08:17:03 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-09#1071796 << revolutions (or simply in older terminology 'emperor lost the mandate of heaven') are a natural process. and incidentally asciilifeform does not share yarvin's worship of stability for the sake of stability (a la ancient egypt. no thx)
signpost: gregory5: abandoning the coyness where one can make reference to ideas which drive their thinking but *not* elaborate their implications is healhty, try.
verisimilitude: I've only written one other entry in the set, so far.
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074083 << then how come the idea caught on as wildfire at its inception by Doug McIlroy among thousands of classically trained scientists and mathematicians?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:20:46 verisimilitude: The UNIX pipe is neither original nor particularly useful. It's making a human centipede with programs, and it's a particularly stupid incarnation of the mathematical idea.
asciilifeform: gregory5: it was their 1 and only idea, as such
asciilifeform: 'all you have is a hammer, let's hammer screws' etc
verisimilitude: I wasn't there, but I've seen plenty of examples of dipshits getting excited over nonsense.
verisimilitude: Look at Reddit.
signpost: god damn, if that isn't descriptive of vast swaths of human history.
signpost must bbl
asciilifeform: this is what happens when folx very poor in synthesis somehow get hold of an idea
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:37:17 asciilifeform: simply, some people simply collect crapola and stack it up. much smaller number is able to synthesise, i.e. form new idea.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:38:16 asciilifeform: the 'stackers' do the bulk of the publishing in a dying culture. they always try to cut off their intellectual betters (folx able to synthesise) from whatever 'official' channels. when cultural death -- this succeeds.
asciilifeform: 'unix philosophy'(tm) consists of just the pipe.
verisimilitude: Have an old joke I wrote:
verisimilitude: Surely we're familiar with the common sayings about the quality of code written by scientists of other fields? Dennis Ritchie was originally a physicist.
verisimilitude: That explains some things, doesn't it?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: rms was a defrocked physics student, fwiw these are a dime a dozen in early (and even current) world of shitware
asciilifeform: ( for that matter 'properly ordained' physics folx atm aint much to write home about )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-08-04 asciilifeform: ditto folks who grew up with 'climatocalypse' and 'string theory' as 'physics'
verisimilitude: RMS can have a pass, I think.
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074093 << Quigley's view was something along the lines of: Western people regard society as a web of human relationships, and government as a consequence of society.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:21:52 signpost: gregory5: abandoning the coyness where one can make reference to ideas which drive their thinking but *not* elaborate their implications is healhty, try.
asciilifeform: gregory5: imho this pov dooms author to nonsense right off the bat. the correct model is the 'stationary bandit' one of j.c.scott.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-01-30 asciilifeform: as described in the mega-super book, 'the art of not being governed' (j.c.scott)
asciilifeform: i.e. government is a robber band which decides to settle in a given geography and succeeds (for whatever interval) in driving off competing marauders.
asciilifeform: all other supposed details being merely 'lipstick on pig'
gregory5: signpost: owing to the unusual conditions of my upbringing, and college-years, I am hesitant to test this hypothesis using my own experiences.
verisimilitude: All property is usurpation, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: well from that pov all living things usurpers, even plankton
verisimilitude: The libertarion ``taxation is theft'' is a red herring that purposefully doesn't go far enough.
verisimilitude: ``The government is stealing from me, bastards! Why yes, I'll pay rent, job-creator.''
verisimilitude: Man either takes from nature or other men.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: this pov is very typical 'anglo' affliction, yes
verisimilitude: Thus, when a man can successfully steal, that makes it his.
asciilifeform: at any rate some folx are accomplishes specialists in theft, these 'govern'
asciilifeform: *accomplished
asciilifeform must bbl: teatime
verisimilitude: William the Conqueror drew new property lines in Britannia; thus, if someone successfully does it again, they would be just as legitimate.
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074098 << are there any viral abstractions comparable to the pipe from other systems, say, TOPS-20, Cedar, Apollo, or the Lisp Machine, which you can think of?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:22:52 asciilifeform: 'all you have is a hammer, let's hammer screws' etc
verisimilitude: With Lisp, we have real function calls and data passing.
verisimilitude: Instead of shitting a serialized list into another's mouth, a Lisp function just hands over the list.
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074136 << that is a step backward in some ways. copy-on-write is a valuable abstraction.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:34:50 verisimilitude: Instead of shitting a serialized list into another's mouth, a Lisp function just hands over the list.
verisimilitude: It's also what leads to the Linux kernels OOM nonsense.
verisimilitude: Recently, I've been thinking about what a man said years ago, about how a VHS tape can play with injuries, but a DVD skips horribly.
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074118 << that is simply a more sardonic and pessimistic re-phrasing of Plinio Correa de Oliveira's theory of governmental origination.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:28:47 asciilifeform: i.e. government is a robber band which decides to settle in a given geography and succeeds (for whatever interval) in driving off competing marauders.
verisimilitude: This is because the more complex DVD mechanism has compression, which can result in total failure rather easily.
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074135 << however, I do like ALGOL's idea of pre-allocating the return-variable, and then writing to it as a normal variable, as opposed to the normal use of "return."
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:33:42 verisimilitude: With Lisp, we have real function calls and data passing.
gregory5: asciilifeform: verisimilitude: how do you view the fact that static scoping was developed within ALGOL before being adopted by LISP? was this a case of ALGOL's designers demonstrating greater intelligence? was LISP's use dynamic scoping a tragic oversight?
verisimilitude: APL also does that.
verisimilitude: Other people can have good ideas, gregory5.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: wrt opposability, how could you prove you are not the author a given message?
PeterL: thimbronion: if it was signed using somebody else's private key
thimbronion: PeterL: bonehead question: how can you prove you *don't have* the private key?
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074128 << even if this were true, there would be competition between governors to reduce their own graft, because that is how a given governor might distinguish himself from others.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:32:05 asciilifeform: at any rate some folx are accomplishes specialists in theft, these 'govern'
PeterL: presumably people keep their keys secret?
PeterL: I guess you just have to take my word that I didn't steal the key first?
thimbronion: PeterL: at a very basic level I can't see you can prove don't have any given bitstring somewhere.
gregory5: asciilifeform: to defend your theory, you would need to affirm Class Realim: the idea that all elites, regardless of culture/religion/locale, are secretly allied with, and intimate with each other.
gregory5: * Class Realism
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 By the by, I've a different view on how to write such ``ancient Greek programs'', or perhaps ``ancient Roman programs'', that I expect to have presentable as an article by this month's end.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 12:29:44 jonsykkel: multigb ffturds 100%cancer agreed, unrelated to point im trying to make tho. maybe following mspaint diagram can help illustrate distinction im talking about http://zzz.st/up/m6y5UhDa/soft.png
thimbronion: PeterL: I suppose you could prove it via a witch trial: produce the key or die, and if you die, you didn't have it.
PeterL: thimbronion: of course there is some limit to the security of digital signatures, but unless you can show somehow that I accessed and made a copy of the key, it is assumed that only the owner of the key is able to sign with it
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:51:39 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 By the by, I've a different view on how to write such ``ancient Greek programs'', or perhaps ``ancient Roman programs'', that I expect to have presentable as an article by this month's end.
verisimilitude: I'll be sharing true wisdom here, gregory5.
verisimilitude: Still, I could use Fizzbuzz in another article, perhaps as my third example.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074149 << recall, it's a symmetric key, either half of the peering can 'sign' with it
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:44:10 thimbronion: asciilifeform: wrt opposability, how could you prove you are not the author a given message?
asciilifeform: ( there are no public/private keys in pestism )
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I know there is no pubkey crypto in pest. My question has to do with the concept of opposability.
PeterL: I was talking more generally about how you get an opposable signature
asciilifeform: thimbronion: well, suppose pest were built on rsa.
verisimilitude: To prove no one knows something, we need merely first implant some machinery in the brain of all humans. The rest is clear afterwards.
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074116 << I wonder how this analysis differs from previous idealizations of the Native Americans, the Celts, and the Pacific Islanders as the ideal non-coercive society.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:27:33 asciilifeform: gregory5: imho this pov dooms author to nonsense right off the bat. the correct model is the 'stationary bandit' one of j.c.scott.
asciilifeform: PeterL: then, when you speak, would generate a massive pile of 'opposable' msgs, i.e. someone with the public key can demonstrate (possib. to your disadvantage) that it was almost certainly you who wrote'em
verisimilitude: Well, ``the brains of all humans'' or ``the brain of every human''.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I think we can leave pest out of it. I realize this is a little autistic - but how can you prove you *don't* have any given private key?
verisimilitude: I've already explained, thimbronion.
gregory5: Kevin Flanagan proves that Libertarianism comes from the Celts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Cuko-9w7c
PeterL: there is the minute possibility that somebody generated the same key as you, but the probability is so vanishingly small as to be ignored
asciilifeform: PeterL: ( whereas any pest peer of thimbronion's can trivially generate a log 'proving' that ' thimbronion : let's go shoot kennedy tonight ' -- proving 0 )
asciilifeform: thimbronion: naturally cannot. q aint re proving that you dun have the key ( this is quite impossible ) but whether 'x heard y say z' can be proven to the satisfaction of a third party with only cooperation of x
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-10 14:27:00 asciilifeform: ( how wouldja prove that you've coughed up yer last coin? there's a reason dpr aint getting out )
asciilifeform: this is the scenario referred to e.g. here.
asciilifeform: let's outline the field basics, because apparently not universally known
PeterL: so as long as the encryption function is not broken, if something is signed then it is legally the owner of the signature that signed it
PeterL: asciilifeform can prolly explain better than me, I'll sit and listen now
verisimilitude: That's a nice pre-condition.
asciilifeform: all totalitarian shitholes (currently covering entire landmass of planet3) employ over9000 professional provocateurs. the latter are typically 'paid piecework', i.e. for 'sufficiently authentic' hits; and have strong incentive to fudge.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 16:11:24 asciilifeform: all totalitarian shitholes (currently covering entire landmass of planet3) employ over9000 professional provocateurs. the latter are typically 'paid piecework', i.e. for 'sufficiently authentic' hits; and have strong incentive to fudge.
asciilifeform: to make for a minimal standard of 'passing laugh test' (even in shitholes w/out juries or similar), filters are imposed by the management. which is why these fine folx ~always~ try to get $you outta net chat where 'anyone could have said this' and into a ~physical room~ where they have camera/microphone going
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-05-25 asciilifeform: has at this point lost count of the 'fine folx' who offered him 'sure profitz' involving white powders/militias/deathrays across-the-border/across-the-ocean/in-shangri-la/in-shiticonvalley etc etc
asciilifeform: a e.g. chat where erry ln is rsa-signed (i.e. 'opposably') makes the stoolie's work over9000x easier, in this respect.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: what is something that *is* opposable given that it is impossible to prove the lack of a private key?
asciilifeform recalls a thrd where in fact was mp explaining this to a skeptical asciilifeform . but can't atm dig up
gregory5: my introduction to the subject of provocateurs came from videos regarding the G20 protests.
gregory5: however, the idea of provocateurs as a basic technique of governance is still mind-boggling.
PeterL: thimbronion: imagine you pgp sign contract, don't do your part, I drag you in front of judge "look, this is what he said he would do"
asciilifeform: thimbronion: think of it this way -- not even deepest shithole simply randomly picks folx off the street 'to try as traitors'. normally there is a selection criterion, imposed (not by 'public', but by management, to make the work actually count towards propping up the regime; which plucking randoms off street dun do)
asciilifeform: PeterL: yer still thinking from a 'contracts' pov, which is the wrong model here.
asciilifeform: it aint about proofs in anyffin you think of as a court
asciilifeform: rather, is about whether $kgb meatpuppet who picked you up in fact can show ~to his management~ that he 'did a work'
asciilifeform: rather than put whatever bits on yer hdd
PeterL: asciilifeform: I was just trying to think of a time when you would want an opposable statement
asciilifeform: if he cannot work this 'ratchet', where 'this is plausibly words of mr.x' ~in front of his boss~, he is then effectively plucking victims at random, which does not advance his cause.
asciilifeform: PeterL: at many times you ~do~ want.
asciilifeform: !q !!deed
dulapbot: asciilifeform: my valid commands are: src, uptime, seen-anywhere, help, s, version, seen
asciilifeform: !q s !!deed
dulapbot: No results found for "!!deed" in #asciilifeform
asciilifeform: lol bug!
asciilifeform: anyways plenty of examples. vpatches.
asciilifeform: quite often one goes to great lengths to bake an opposable sig. is what pgp is largely about.
asciilifeform: but 'erry ln you type to a stranger in a chat' aint 1 of'em
asciilifeform: e.g. asciilifeform put yrs of sweat towards a tool largely for baking opposable sigs.
verisimilitude: I wonder if Roman cryptography featured anything such as this.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: afaik roman crypto topped out at caesar's substitution cipher
verisimilitude: Yes; I'll need to research it.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: research seals, the pertinent subj, rather.
verisimilitude: I've read that, yes.
asciilifeform: so at any rate, 'dun want opposable sigs on erry fart in public' is not about judges, juries, contracts.
PeterL: crypto can be much simpler if your enemy does not have computers to help break your codes
asciilifeform: is rather about whether to unnecessarily make work of seekritpolice over9000x easier. which, when easily avoided, avoid.
asciilifeform: (easier & moar effective)
asciilifeform: PeterL: pre-comp. crypto was by and large a joke.
asciilifeform: for that matter current crypto is still for most part a joak
verisimilitude: I can see it now.
verisimilitude: ``Pre-quantum computers, crypto was by and large a joke.''
verisimilitude: ``Pre-$whatever, crypto was by and large a joke.''
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it's still a joke, for fundamental reason
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-02-05 asciilifeform: there is no 'provably hard' ~anything~ available, the WHOLE MOTHERFUCKING FIELD is, as far as the eye can see, pseudomathematical turdmeistery
verisimilitude: Only the one-time pad stands out, right?
asciilifeform: actual crypto is otp.
asciilifeform: errything else is a 'bank that enemy hasn't found pill'
verisimilitude: It's amazing how that's, what, nearly two hundred years old by now?
asciilifeform considers otp quite simple to bolt onto e.g. pest.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: possibly older. earliest recorded description is in late 19th
asciilifeform: of course the single-bit variant is ancient.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-10 15:45:14 asciilifeform: tldr -- if you anticipate having something to say to folx from reich dungeon, agree on magick words in advance.
verisimilitude: For these and other reasons, I've never been too interested in writing networked programs. The adversarial issues prevent them from being nice and crystalline to me.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: ok so a sig by bob being opposable doesn't mean alice can absolutely deny generating the sig. It means kgb can pick up bob, force him to cough up his private key, and associate him with all his publicly available signed docs.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: it means that if bob is a provocateur, he cannot demonstrate to his employer that alice said $x.
asciilifeform: bob could have just as easily rearranged the bits on disk purportedly found in alice's cunt to 'alice: x'
asciilifeform: handler knows this, and will pay him 5 cents for alice instead of 50$.
asciilifeform: because he can and does bring in 9000 alices / week
asciilifeform: (to this standard of quality)
asciilifeform: imho pretty clear diff.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: observe that if yer using opposable sigs, no one needs to wire you to the mains and get priv key to 'associate you with what said', is by design trivial once you have the pubkey and the 'what said'
asciilifeform: this is appropriate in some situations (vpatch), and not in others (the electrical equiv. of 'conversation on crowded train with stranger'), is all
whaack: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074009 <-- ty for the link, didn't see the previous one, ty also asciilifeform, looks awesome
bitbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 19:50:12 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073888 My website linking is perhaps similar to this described setup. Also, take a look at this, whaack: https://search.marginalia.nu
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 13:48:54 whaack: i was thinking of a blog search engine, where blogs are organized into a tree structure, where each blog is a node, and one's own blog starts as the root node. each blog has a blogroll (ideally w/ standard format) , and each link in the blogroll represents a child node, the search engine starts at your own blog, and then goes down the tree , prioritizing results closer to your blogroll
asciilifeform must bbl
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074247 << in other words, what one wants from an anti-reich pov is to maintain 'lemon market' in 'alices', in econ terminology.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 16:29:48 asciilifeform: because he can and does bring in 9000 alices / week
asciilifeform genuinely bbl
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I think I'm making some progress. Opposability is not a cryptographic term, but in fact a legal term, and appears to be used predominantly in French law.
thimbronion: For the record this is a full definition that I cannot find in English: https://droit-finances.commentcamarche.com/faq/23889-opposabilite-definition
jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074040 << not knowledgeable enuf on subject of homosexuality to give proper reply, maybe c/unix not ideal platform but in the end u must use some editor, terminal, os, cpu and so on. only available alternatives are "make best of it", or "not use computer"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:07:32 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073788 The homosexual tendencies of Greeks apparently have been grossly exaggerated, jonsykkel, so don't be so certain about that.
jonsykkel: maybe pipe sux, idk, havnt thought about it enuf. but is fastest way i know of to make computer do x, in the restricted domain of problems that can be solved with program human centipedes. maybe its possible to solve this restriction by generalizing the concept properly. doing serial (y (x)) in lisp is not analogous to setting up a parallel human centipede operation x | y
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:51:39 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 By the by, I've a different view on how to write such ``ancient Greek programs'', or perhaps ``ancient Roman programs'', that I expect to have presentable as an article by this month's end.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074259 << is prolly where mp lifted it. anglo cryptographers seem to use 'non-deniable' which imho ugh
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 16:52:33 thimbronion: asciilifeform: I think I'm making some progress. Opposability is not a cryptographic term, but in fact a legal term, and appears to be used predominantly in French law.
PeterL: opposability is the better term because it defines what it is, rather than trying to define what it is not
asciilifeform: 'horseless carriage'
asciilifeform: observe that in spec said ''repudiatable' (i.e. non-opposable)', maybe 1st part would suffice
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 17:02:02 jonsykkel: maybe pipe sux, idk, havnt thought about it enuf. but is fastest way i know of to make computer do x, in the restricted domain of problems that can be solved with program human centipedes. maybe its possible to solve this restriction by generalizing the concept properly. doing serial (y (x)) in lisp is not analogous to setting up a parallel human centipede operation x | y
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074242 << the nice thing about occasionally attacking a concrete problem is that can sometimes actually succeed. e.g. we're a good 90+% of the way towards getting the hell outta irc-on-one-box with the attendant lulz thereof
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 16:28:13 verisimilitude: For these and other reasons, I've never been too interested in writing networked programs. The adversarial issues prevent them from being nice and crystalline to me.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-11 18:34:08 asciilifeform: and in particular, the next time the dc folx trip over the main breaker like in dec. of '20, pestnet is what'll be standing and dulapnet awol
asciilifeform: ( and observe that we didn't need a million $ cluster or whateverthefuck googletardation, for it )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-02-18 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
asciilifeform: p2pism on entirely existing irons worx a++. 'if you work it.'
asciilifeform: the 0xfb algo even oughta cut through NATs transparently for that matter.
asciilifeform: ( and we haven't even touched the implications of practically impossible to ddos hosting etc. )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
asciilifeform: y'know, the thing morons pay $bils to 'cloudflare' and other charlatans for
asciilifeform: canhaz for ~0$, turns out
asciilifeform: simply suffices to 'stop thinking like reich' and let go of the centralism.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 13:53:56 asciilifeform: arguably 'search sucks'(tm) because folx insist on copying approach of google et al, which is exact opposite of Right Thing in over900 ways
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-21 12:07:19 asciilifeform: punkman: dunno whether you followed the 'electronic cash' subject pre-bitcoin, but it was replete with idiocies involving 'untamperable modules' etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-05 14:10:22 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 100% of the mechanical pieces existed in '90s (chaum et all), the item that made present-day bitcoinism possible was specifically the longest-chain hash work mechanism
asciilifeform: even w/ a halfbaked proto pestron, the ~current~ pestnet is moar reliable already than any net-facing system on planet3.
gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074280 << to my understanding, NAT penetration is a very common technique used by almost all online video-games, is that right? do you have any recommended network-programming books which explain the mechanics of such?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 18:46:49 asciilifeform: the 0xfb algo even oughta cut through NATs transparently for that matter.
asciilifeform: gregory5: w/out exaggeration, errything there is to learn from said books is in the linked spec sect.
asciilifeform: ( nat drilling as typically implemented relies on a designated central server. except somehow none of the b00x note that you dun in fact need a central server, can use ~anyone~ who already escaped, if he's able to send you back your ephemeral port # )
asciilifeform: i.e. if you can reach a pestnet where even 1 station a) not in a nat b) already 'escaped' -- yours can escape
asciilifeform: all you need is 1 'escaped' peer.
gregory5: thanks for explaining. (=
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074292 << Most I have encountered use some form of "UPnP".
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 19:06:03 gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074280 << to my understanding, NAT penetration is a very common technique used by almost all online video-games, is that right? do you have any recommended network-programming books which explain the mechanics of such?
asciilifeform: shinohai: aka 'lemme out plz kthx' lol
asciilifeform: ( and astonishing piece of rube goldberg machinery, famous for ddos amplifier and nearly infinitely deep well of 0day)
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-03-14 asciilifeform: Framedragger: in the old #bitcoin-assets days, there was a bot, that idled under (afaik still unknown) names, and would target ddostron (used vulnerable konsoomer router 'upnp' for udp amplification) at anyone who logged in without using fleanode's 'cloak' feature (i.e. had visible ip).
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-09-07 asciilifeform: (upnp) 'There is a heap buffer overflow vulnerability in the create_url_list function in upnp/src/gena/gena_device.c. I first discovered this vulnerability when working with version 1.6.19 and have confirmed that it also exists in the latest code on the master branch.'
asciilifeform: ( the 'adult' variant of 'lemme out' is actually digging in yer nat config and setting up port fwding etc. which is what asciilifeform did to make own desk pestron go. but it's a rather annoying chore, and wouldn't work if yer on e.g. gsm modem or other lamertron where often built-in nat 'for yer own good')
asciilifeform: classical example of the latter incl. e.g. 'tethering' via pnoje
asciilifeform: ... fortunately none of this is actually needed, erry nat can be tricked into 'letting out'.
verisimilitude: So, I believe I've noticed a flaw in software relating to this IRC. May I attempt to exploit this for amusement, asciilifeform?
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074263 Consider using a queue in Lisp, as an example, jonsykkel, one that can hold arbitrary objects, not mere octets.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 17:02:02 jonsykkel: maybe pipe sux, idk, havnt thought about it enuf. but is fastest way i know of to make computer do x, in the restricted domain of problems that can be solved with program human centipedes. maybe its possible to solve this restriction by generalizing the concept properly. doing serial (y (x)) in lisp is not analogous to setting up a parallel human centipede operation x | y
verisimilitude: People argue octets representing characters are universal. Bits are more universal. As I've written, being universal isn't equivalent to being good for use.
verisimilitude: Regarding a sane computer with an FG, it would be interesting to use volatile RAM to cache the FG output, up to some limit, so that it may temporarily be used at a greater rate than it can be produced. None of this would, or should, be backed up to disk, so there wouldn't be any issue. The only issue is it may result in a system not recovering from power failure as quickly as a lightbulb, were it needing heavy entropy.
verisimilitude: That may or may not be useful; I don't yet know.
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