Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-06-23 | 2022-06-25 → ↓
mats: i know
mats: marcan42 is one of earth's mightiest heroes
verisimilitude: He's also involved in covering up a fake suicide.
mats: did you learn that on 8chan
phf: asciilifeform: i run openbsd on m1
phf: i get apple stuff for "free" (ultimately comes out from budget, but "industry standard"), normally just goes into pile, to girl, or stays at office, but i was actually curious to try an m1 machine, not least because asahi work got ported to openbsd, can kind of run it out of the box
phf: it's very fast, while being fanless (though not as fast as the pundits like to claim, and the various arm extensions, particularly vector stuff is proprietary and undocumented). it's almost like cray's vertical integration was the right approach, except you still lose a lot to shit bus and shit architecture
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1090048 << waiting on 1x Icebreaker and 2x TinyFGPA BX, should have the former sometime in the next mo
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-28 16:19:58 signpost: figures there oughta be a few folks here that can afford to go on a small hardware adventure sometime around 2024, assuming north america isn't covered in radioactive cobalt by then.
crtdaydreams: preorder wait times means any TinyFPGA boards mightn't be avail. til sept.
crtdaydreams: could be longer again next cycle
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1108806 << interesting; curious which of the periphs actually work on bsd ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 01:10:49 phf: i get apple stuff for "free" (ultimately comes out from budget, but "industry standard"), normally just goes into pile, to girl, or stays at office, but i was actually curious to try an m1 machine, not least because asahi work got ported to openbsd, can kind of run it out of the box
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 01:14:07 phf: it's very fast, while being fanless (though not as fast as the pundits like to claim, and the various arm extensions, particularly vector stuff is proprietary and undocumented). it's almost like cray's vertical integration was the right approach, except you still lose a lot to shit bus and shit architecture
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1108802 << asciilifeform has nfi who that is(was?) or re the scandal, care to elaborate ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 00:40:33 verisimilitude: He's also involved in covering up a fake suicide.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 09:13:08 crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1090048 << waiting on 1x Icebreaker and 2x TinyFGPA BX, should have the former sometime in the next mo
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-23#1108781 << fwiw the 'teardown' folx apparently found that nope, still hotglued as in the old one and comes out after syringing with 99% etoh.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-23 19:15:02 asciilifeform: in ^ battery hot-glued in, but turned out can be extracted with some effort. in 'm1'/'m2' iirc epoxied...
asciilifeform: ( this re 'm1' crapple. 'm2' afaik no one tried just yet )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 10:00:11 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1108806 << interesting; curious which of the periphs actually work on bsd ?
asciilifeform: phf: how about 'lid suspend' ?
phf: lol
phf: also screen in native framebuffer
asciilifeform: so, sorta like the rk
phf: asciilifeform: for whatever reason there's a lot of attention to m1 hardware, well, a lot more than one would expect (between asahi and openbsd there's probably like 3 and a hife developers working on it), so i wouldn't be surprised if "suspend very soon now"
asciilifeform: for some reason 'suspend' is historically ugh to implement 100% (even on supposedly-documented chipsets)
asciilifeform: (on x86 boxen, often enuff various periphs req magick prods when coming into/outta suspend, microshit got the precise docs but no one else)
asciilifeform: phf: the enthusiasm for m1 , i'd suspect is from '18h <1kg lappy' , plenty of folx want, and would be willing to bite all kindsa bullets to get
phf: right before i got m1 i was playing with avx512 (for a very brief side gig on a certain apl derivative language), and getting all kinds of cool nanosecond speeds for matrix multiplication, search, all kinds of basic operations when reimplemented in vector from groundup for a vector language become ns fast
phf: when i ported code to m1 got very mundane speeds (was 2us with avx512 now 11us with arm neon, even larger cache didn't help much), and it happened just as i got m1, it now feels very pedestrian. :>
phf: "y'all PHOTOWORD might load 2x faster, but here, at cutting edge of language and optimization we're seeing very poor numbers, very poor numbers indeed"
asciilifeform quite outta date re subj; phf how does 'avx' etc compare to various gpu accelerators for matrix etc ?
phf: asciilifeform: i don't know yet. i don't know gpu at the level at which i know avx now. i think it's kind of a different class of problems. you setup particularl problems, load them into gpu, then they chug along, it's faster (2-4x?) at the same time it's not free
phf: with avx you basically sprinkle it like magic through your code, wherever you can do any kind of vectorization "grab this chunk of memory, load it into vetor registers, do a handful of vector transforms, get back results 8x or 16x faster"
asciilifeform: phf: 'load in / out' is historically a headache w/ coprocessors (even on-die, see e.g.)
asciilifeform: but if can 'grab chunk of memory and do x' then a++, potentially, 'cray-like'
phf: also clang/gcc can do vectorization for you. you annotate and setup your data with an c extension it's treated as an n-element array, except if you have some closed form iteration (for(i)n+=x[i] "accumulator" etc.) you get a "free" conversion to a vector op
asciilifeform: phf: does the compiler tell you whether the transformation succeeded ? (otherwise i'd expect would be quite frustrating)
phf: asciilifeform: yes, there's annotations that'll spit out the details
phf: but also don't have to rely on compiler, can (and that's more of what i did) write a combo of intrinsics
phf: the puzzle becomes "i have this array of n, how to epxress op in terms of a handful of instrinsic steps so that each code block operates on n/8"
asciilifeform not does much '1337 numerics' these days
phf: asciilifeform: there's avx based json parser. not that you need something like that, but some university creatures wrote it out, but same paper has general purpose techniques for "parsing structured data with avx" essentially
phf: *with vectors
asciilifeform: phf did mention search too
phf: yeah
phf: kek, i was about to bring up the linus thing, so appologies i already started writing this sentence
phf: ... every fucking idiot is quoting linus right now about avx512 "oh herp derp linas sad avx512 bad", but linus has very specific concerns, talking from his systems engineer perspective: avx512 is kind of like bolted on, makes another set of disjoint instructions, without updating avx2 (well that's not entirely true, but for the sake of conversation), and i don't know what else other kind of constraints there exist in linux. if one were
phf: to grab avx512 off the shelf, solve concrete vectorization problems, it's magic technology
phf: and if one's for example trying to build a basic grammar of vector operations for whatever purpose, then avx512 is a lot more consistent, has better coverage. it sort of plugs holes in the avx2/mmx/sse legacy shitshow
asciilifeform: phf: well he did say, 'fragmentation'. main constraint of linux, from coprocessoristic pov, is that it gotta work (and decently) on irons where the pheature ain't avail.
phf: yeap
asciilifeform: so when you introduce 1 of these, nao where you had 1 thing, instead 2 (or worse) and debug separately and ugh
asciilifeform: nor does vectorism afaik 'astonishingly' speed up anyffin in kernel per se
phf: of course, particularly if you wrote your kernel in a traditional way to begin with
asciilifeform recalls how it took ~decade+ to even get folx to use CMOV
phf: but there's a lot of legacy concerns when it comes to linus: you can write your basic operational dictionary in terms of avx512, then take it and express it in avx2 (perhaps more ops, and 2x since your vector is 2/ size), but you can't easily go the other way. so if you have a lot of avx2 code, now have to rewrite it in avx512, often times reworking the logic
phf: you can even solve this problem automagically: there's a handful of compat headers, that will give you e.g. avx512 instrinsics on an arm64 using neon (will be slower, and clankier, but works)
phf: but avx512 being a superset, you have to go all in, and then look at everything else in terms of it
phf: but it also raises questions of inherent vectorization. at 4-i vector can sprinkle it here and there, deal with spillover manually (often taking massive hit on performance. your vector code goes brrrr, but then extra 2-3 elements that spill over from vector size now bring your speeds down)
phf: at 8-i vector you suddenly find yourself in a position, where 13-element arrays are a pita
phf: you solve it by making all your allocations (n//8+1)*8 (or whatever your vector granularity) but you can see how at the scale of linux this kind of changes suddenly become very unrully
verisimilitude: Yes, at the scale of stupid people writing something in the stupidest possible way, basic changes are very unruly.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i gotta bite; how wouldja've 'smartly' baked kernel so that can somehow use arbitrary oddball new cpu pheatures w/ minimal effort ?
verisimilitude: I would've started by not using the C language.
verisimilitude: Ada enables one to make such changes about as easily as it gets.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1108816 An emulator developer named Byuu faked his suicide and marcan42 is involved in it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 10:01:08 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1108802 << asciilifeform has nfi who that is(was?) or re the scandal, care to elaborate ?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: re ada...
verisimilitude: The programmer can just add such manually, if he really needs it, by writing the routine in machine code.
verisimilitude: The Linux kernel focus on performance is laughable anyway; yes, they want more time to run their memory killer and other garbage; it really matters to anyone not in a datacenter, sure.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 12:58:41 verisimilitude: The programmer can just add such manually, if he really needs it, by writing the routine in machine code.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 12:52:26 verisimilitude: Ada enables one to make such changes about as easily as it gets.
asciilifeform: that's 'as easily as it gets' ? lol
verisimilitude: Give me a real design and I can give a real answer.
verisimilitude: I don't believe the same idiots who can't automatically rewrite their code to use the new macros, underlying or not, can be trusted to find the best solution to any problem, except the problem of looking smart.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: automatically?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's example is trivial in comparison (gimme the fucking top half of 32x32 -> 64 result, for fuck's sake) and still nuffin 'automatic' about it
asciilifeform: nao how wouldja automate 'on this-here iron, there's a coprocessor for searching memory, it gives 8 autosearchers with direct access to ram and throws results in these 8 regs' so that also worx where ordinary iron..?
asciilifeform: it aint just a substitution a la 'intrinsics' -- if you actually want to win maximally from the exotic iron, you gotta restructure all kindsa algos, rather than simply 'drop-in'
verisimilitude: Is the sought answer here ``get the compiler to do it''? If so, I misunderstood.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there aint a sought answer, lol
asciilifeform: it aint clear to asciilifeform that there ~is~ a 'clean' answer
asciilifeform: and this is the reason linus barfed
verisimilitude: Abstraction, abstraction, abstraction, and also abstraction.
asciilifeform: hardware accelerators only win if a) you can rely on the presence of the iron, cuz it was introduced 10-20y ago b) yer writing tailored numerics code for ~given~, already purchased, iron, already screwed into ~your~ rack, etc
asciilifeform: otherwise you get very questionable (sometimes, lol, negative) 'win'
asciilifeform: even if yer writing, as in above example, in asm
asciilifeform: to get the full win, yer stuck effectively branching yer proggy into ~two~, one for 'where have $magickinstr' and one for 'where not have'
verisimilitude: Okay; it would be best to make Mr. Proggy here as small as possible, then, now wouldn't it?
asciilifeform: orthogonal
verisimilitude: Toilet paper is orthogonal to shitting.
asciilifeform: indeed is. fwiw asciilifeform's was justabout as small as possible for the given problem, and still buncha sweat to bolt on relatively unremarkable sseism
asciilifeform: ... and that was in pure asm, where didn't have to whack the compiler with baseball bat to get it to behave
verisimilitude: Well, I've never touched the Intel hellscape without gloves on, so I suppose I'll stop now.
asciilifeform: 'не читал, но осуждаю'(tm)(r)(lolhruschev) eh
verisimilitude: Translate that for me.
asciilifeform: 'haven't read it, but i condemn'
verisimilitude: I'm not that bad.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-20 16:56:21 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-20#1107706 << you're such an insuffarable cunt, i'm prepared to defend php just to not be in the same camp with you. shit basic on altair is a superior system to the idea system that only exists in verisimilitude's head. did you know that in my system there are no flaws? did you also know that i've solved all practical problems by never doing anything practical? fuck. you.
verisimilitude: Yes, yes.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: asciilifeform strongly recs to at least once 'get hands dirty' before 'aa, idjits, they dun know the magic pill'
verisimilitude: I've written machine code and other such things before, just not with Intel.
asciilifeform: for instance, asciilifeform was expecting verisimilitude to say e.g. 'if the cpu vendors simply shipped fpga core that runs at main clock speed, wouldn't need magick instructions'
asciilifeform: 'but then greedy fucks couldn't peddle $5k cpu erry 2y'
verisimilitude: That's not even close to a real answer to the practical problem, though.
verisimilitude: It's wishful thinking.
verisimilitude: Is that why it was expected of me?
asciilifeform: 'smart compiler oughta auto-restructure kernel to use $newinstrs' is similarly 'wishful' lol
asciilifeform: diff is that is actually possible, hypothetically, to bake fpga into cpu (intel even made noises about offering one, tho naturally 100% closed shitware) ; then when someone devises a new instr for $op, ~all~ the irons could use it
asciilifeform: whereas 'smart compiler that rebakes all my algos to use $strange' is 'ai-complete' fantasy
verisimilitude: I didn't mention it, since it's not suited to operating system programming, but this is what an APL system has.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: elaborate ?
verisimilitude: An APL system is able to have ``fill elements'' and other things, such as omnipresent alignment, and so it's not hard for, say, Dyalog, to provide specialized routines using whatever the hardware offers.
verisimilitude: In particular, the ``fill elements'' make some of those issues phf mentioned evaporate. There will be no leftover elements, because everything can be padded to the required size.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: similar to the fill in cl neh
asciilifeform: this still aint aboutta magick away all and any possible 'accelerator' problem tho
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 13:09:16 asciilifeform: nao how wouldja automate 'on this-here iron, there's a coprocessor for searching memory, it gives 8 autosearchers with direct access to ram and throws results in these 8 regs' so that also worx where ordinary iron..?
asciilifeform: some -- yes
verisimilitude: No, it's not similar.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: got example handy ?
verisimilitude: a←'one' 'two' 'three' 'four'◊a
verisimilitude: one two three four
verisimilitude: Notice how a was filled by spaces, since it holds characters.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: paste plox, seems to have mangled
verisimilitude: That's normal for APL. It looks right in the logs.
verisimilitude: So, the first row is "one " and so on.
verisimilitude: These ``fill elements'' are fundamentally different from Common Lisp's FILL-POINTER.
verisimilitude: Anyway, APL is suited to these things, and any array can be implemented as the required underlying size, if needed.
asciilifeform: still not 100% clear to asciilifeform how differs from cl's 'element-type' or how pertains to 'automagically win from coprocessors'
verisimilitude: I can also link to something someone wrote in which I commented to make the same point.
asciilifeform: can infer from what verisimilitude said earlier that in apltron could, say, force array to align on 128bits or similar
asciilifeform: this is 1 particular thing, tho, it dun get you outta actually having to be aware of what the $accelerator offers if you want to squeeze max profit from it
asciilifeform: in the general case
verisimilitude: Well, maybe Intel should make its own damn operating system already.
verisimilitude: Sure, I've no general answer.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: lulzy enuff it does -- or rather the 'wintel' beast does. doesn't actually 'win' from $accelerator-of-the-day as microshit is stuck supporting 10-20y of junkyard
verisimilitude: The Linux kernel is nowhere near maximum performance on any machine, though.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: was never aimed to be
asciilifeform: most of what folx run aint bottlenecked in kernel, either
verisimilitude: I'm imagining a brave little C language program, running as quickly as it can to find that zero octet.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: wasn't attempting to justify cmachine braindamage, lol
verisimilitude: I started imagining a children's movie about this.
verisimilitude: The main character dies violently in the end; there never were a zero to find, and he went into uncharted territory.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: apropos
asciilifeform: ( no eng subs, but suspect will make sense )
phf: this was a grownup conversation until verisimilitude joined. luckily i left to get sandwiches, and i no longer care, but damn
asciilifeform perhaps moar pedagogically inclined than phf, but still to certain limit
asciilifeform perhaps from yrs of 'teaching kindergarten' in #t
verisimilitude: I should do some work instead, anyway.
phf: like for example, i'm curious if the claim "you can transparently put avx512 into your ada array handling" actually holds, purely on engineering level (obv on design level http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1108889 )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 13:10:10 asciilifeform: it aint just a substitution a la 'intrinsics' -- if you actually want to win maximally from the exotic iron, you gotta restructure all kindsa algos, rather than simply 'drop-in'
phf: and how that would be done, but because the person who proposed it is a blowhard, and i don't write ada anymore, we'll never find out!
asciilifeform: phf: there's an intrinsic tension b/w even 'use the overflow bits from arithmetic ops' and 'but hm there are over9000 chips where you dun get any flags'
asciilifeform: not even speaking of 1337 craylike vectorizers etc
phf: but can you e.g. do `array 13 of foo`, and have your allocator do `array 18` transparently?
phf: without hacking on compiler that is
phf: and does matter if the rest of you code like you said branches into intinsics and iterative
phf: *does it matter
asciilifeform: the allocator? actually yes
asciilifeform: for 'magic instrs' yer stuck with 'intrinsics' (of which gnat gives next to nuffin) and then of course asmism
asciilifeform: you get surprising amt of things for which otherwise would have to patch compiler; but, unsurprisingly, not 'errything'
phf: verisimilitude's actual considered point (because he wrote some apl, isn't just talking out of his ass like on other subj) is that apl is particularly suited for vectorization, is also unsurprisingly how the fucking conversation started.
phf: the reason why i learned things about avx512 is because was working with an implementation of an apl derivative
asciilifeform: subj for folx who not apl'd
asciilifeform: iirc recent fortran also with vectorism 'hints'
asciilifeform not fortran'd in rather long time
phf: well if you're implementing an apl, then you can take +\1 2 3, where 1 2 3 is actually backed by 1 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 and your +\ becomes _mm512_reduce_add_epi32, don't need "hints"
asciilifeform: phf: apl indeed quite vectorization-friendly, but asciilifeform couldn't help but 'throw exception' on the preposterous 'sufficiently smart compiler will 100% utilize all future iron' notion
phf: but obv all kinds of disclaimers apply, your array then is an array32, if like with common lisp's numeric tower your array has a bignum in it, suddenly not "cheap"
phf: but even for array32 *\1 2 3 need extra logic to change those 0s to 1s
asciilifeform in old days, had a low-key parallel effort going , 'ffa in x64 asm', experimented with 'modern' instrs, but perma-shelved when realized the obv problem w/ such a thing
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-06 20:14:47 asciilifeform: for the most part gives very little shit re intel irons, either way. nao, a leak of e.g. amd's 'psp' boobytrap would be useful. but none to date.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-22 09:58:30 asciilifeform: gregory5: otoh for amd's 'PSP' boobytrap, no defusing, partial or otherwise, known atm.
verisimilitude: APL solves this by not offering BIGNUMs.
asciilifeform: lolsolve
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-08-18 asciilifeform: cabbie: 'this ford is a piece of shit. stalled again.' mircea_popescu: 'i have a solution!' cabbie: 'oh???111' mircea_popescu: 'here, have this broomstick.' cabbie: 'how do i drive customers on that, feed my family' mircea_popescu: 'you misunderstand, my good man. you stuff it in your arse.' cabbie: 'and... how does this feed by family?' mircea_popescu: 'no, you sit there with it in.'
asciilifeform suspects 'broomstick offering' is a chronic disease inescapably contracted by folx who do not, with any regularity, actually ~gotta~ solve a given problem, but instead can whimflutter into some other problem ( or 'problem' ) that is 'moar fun' to solve (or 'solve')
verisimilitude: One gets for what one pays.
asciilifeform: at most
asciilifeform: the danger is, even if you've 'infinite' dough, is that you won't actually attempt anyffin genuinely hard, and consequently will learn ~0, while 'feeling like a trader'(tm)(r)(tlp) quite satisfyingly
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-12-01 asciilifeform: asciilifeform refers to this genre of writing as '10th-dimension', after infamous pseudoscientific b00k/www by same name, which consisted of highly refined 'imponade' (to borrow naggum's) , that is, writing designed to pull the reader's intellectual cock and give a sensation of 'profound insight', 'yes, NAO i UNDERSTAND FIZZZIX!' or similar.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-08-31 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-31#1707767 << they want a lispm. not a 'i can't believe it's not a lispm'
verisimilitude: Which derivative was this, phf: J, K, or another?
asciilifeform: ( laddel, for n00bs, was a fella who convinced himself that a linux box which boots into sbcl is 'a lispm' )
verisimilitude: I've never played with them, because I like the glyphs too much.
verisimilitude: ``I can't believe my foot is no longer attached to my body!''
verisimilitude: How did that happen, anyway?
asciilifeform: laff, verisimilitude , but d00d was consistent. 'who said 'a', must say 'b''(tm)(r)(lenin)
verisimilitude: I'm not laughing, actually, but just saw the opportunity.
asciilifeform: he convinced self (with the aid of various dope, self-admittedly) that 'mind over matter'(tm) and his inner 'reality' was interchangeable w/ the physical kind
verisimilitude: I suppose that particular self-mutilation joke happened to be in poor taste.
verisimilitude: I'm reminded of the god who proved it by jumping into a volcano.
verisimilitude: I just noticed ``volcano'' is from the god VVLCANVS, also spelled VOLCANVS.
verisimilitude: How neat.
asciilifeform: became a hobo (given as 'stanford is run by morons', 'turned on, tuned in, dropped out'); took to hiding out on rooftops ('the guards are morons'); took to eating stims by the kg ('to finish my lispm! any day nao!'); hallucinated, fell off roof, broke foot; 'doctors are morons, i'ma self-amputate'; then vanished, and not seen on net in some yrs, likely rip
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: lol wheredja think it came from?!
verisimilitude: I didn't, asciilifeform, that's why it's so neat.
phf: verisimilitude: i'd rather not tie previous conversation to it in logs for anti-search purposes. i've described some obv impl details, that were apropos, but it wasn't really my place
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: folx dun typically 'kiss&tell' re commercial worx
verisimilitude: Oh, well that's fair.
asciilifeform coupla time in lul, asciilifeform : '$shitware dunwork' $client : 'write to their forum' asciilifeform : 'a, but we signed here, the fact that i worked for you is a trade seekrit!' $client : 'damn'
verisimilitude: I take it that's not such a bad clause, since it spares one from such things.
asciilifeform: spares from over9000
verisimilitude: How long did it take to want such a clause in the contracts?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: is traditional in some industries. but if it aint there, you can usually pencil it in
verisimilitude: Yes; how long did it take to want to pencil it in?
asciilifeform not recalls precisely when. but long ago.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you (or the other folx) have any kinda substantial net presence, is kinda obv
verisimilitude: Say, how many here keep detailed logs of their lives, on that note?
verisimilitude: I've done it for over half with the current system I wrote.
verisimilitude: I've done it for over half a decade with the current system I wrote.
asciilifeform not diary aficionado; for things other folx have biz knowing , have the l0gz, for all else -- head
verisimilitude: It's a log, not a diary.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: wat in your pov is the diff?
verisimilitude: I could continue to feign apprehensiveness about it, but suppose I shouldn't; there's not too much difference.
verisimilitude: One's considered to be more manly.
verisimilitude: A lumberjack deals with logs, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: 'what did the navigator find in the head?' 'the captain's log' (tm)(r)(alt.tasteless)
verisimilitude: s/head/toilet/
phf: verisimilitude: i keep almost traditional lab notebook, almost exclusively in long hand, for each variety of project
verisimilitude: I did have the foresight to version and to make it machine-readable; it's just an S-expression for each day.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-07-03 19:22:30 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-03#1015764 << i've a pertinent tale : 10y ago, asciilifeform tried to write a (naively, thought...) very simple proggy :
verisimilitude: I call the program REGULAR-RECORDS.
asciilifeform would pay over9000 to this day for a working (and guaranteed lifetime-working) implementation of exactly what described there. but afaik firmly impossible on extant comp.
asciilifeform: ^ was actually how asciilifeform woke up to 'extant comp is garbage'
verisimilitude: I suggested the problem on that forum I help manage, in a thread on user interface frameworks, unfortunately to the expected responses of ``>No Emacs, no Qt'' and whatnot.
phf: chan anons fail to give useful answer, news at 11
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in erry place where asciilifeform ever brought it up, response always ~identical : 'why are you doing that, have you considered doing something entirely else? and also emacs' etc
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-08-18 asciilifeform: cabbie: 'this ford is a piece of shit. stalled again.' mircea_popescu: 'i have a solution!' cabbie: 'oh???111' mircea_popescu: 'here, have this broomstick.' cabbie: 'how do i drive customers on that, feed my family' mircea_popescu: 'you misunderstand, my good man. you stuff it in your arse.' cabbie: 'and... how does this feed by family?' mircea_popescu: 'no, you sit there with it in.'
verisimilitude: Every so often that isn't the case, phf.
phf: every so often iching also gives me very very apropos advice on the whatever current situation, yet, unlike philip k dick, i've yet to attribute coherent sentience to that book
verisimilitude: A difference in our thinking amuses me, asciilifeform: I didn't need an example program to realize that.
verisimilitude: Then again, I did have asciilifeform's writings to read; those helped.
asciilifeform: can find mines by stepping on'em, or by watching other folx
verisimilitude: Hey, we've no bicycle for the mind, but certainly we've a LiveLeak for the mind.
verisimilitude: ``Man spends twenty years working on kernel subsystem - never realizes what's wrong''
asciilifeform: meanwhile, will soon be 20y since asciilifeform 1st tried, and ~to this day~ can't bake a text editor on any os where can click a hyperlink ~while editing~ , lol
asciilifeform: ( not even to speak of 'cut&paste, incl. images, from other proggies', 'vector fonts', 'identical behaviour on all os', etc )
asciilifeform: 'use emacs' 'elisp will choke when plowing through GBs of dataset' 'why' 'i want textcompletion for erry word i ever typed' 'nutter'
verisimilitude: Mine MMC works, because the base was its interface, but I did notice how it would be nice to have this, that, and these, but that it belonged in the underlying system, not one program.
verisimilitude: Almost nothing is reusable.
asciilifeform: or even moddable meaningfully, unless yer happily straighjacketed into the same tunnelvision as orig author
verisimilitude: ``Twenty million lines of kernel code, and what do ya get, a packet send error and technical debt.''
phf: write own renderer from scratch in turbo pascal for dos. would've been done by now, had one of those html1.0 websites, where "fans of TURBONOTES" "i wired turbonotes to take firefox page snapshots, over rsr232, from a lappy"
phf: "turbonotes now supports avx512 for searching, plows through 2tb of my notes in 20ns"
phf: "setting up turbonotes in freedos/qemu"
phf: :D
verisimilitude: No, use TempleOS.
verisimilitude: Has asciilifeform tried to write this in TempleOS before now?
verisimilitude: I keep intending to play with it, for the purpose of building a real interface, but haven't yet.
phf: always pleasant when you're doing something and hit one of those html1.0 sites. prepping up for 4th of july so was searching "nichrome igniter redundancy" first result (dunno how relevant to question, but definitely relevant to subj) https://www.nakka-rocketry.net/igniter.html
shinohai: I feel like that site deserves to be browsed in Netscape.
PeterL: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1109049 << where we see that verisimilitude is not familiar with naval terminology
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 15:06:25 verisimilitude: s/head/toilet/
verisimilitude: Quite the contrary, PeterL; that was my second guess.
verisimilitude: Why is it called a poop deck, PeterL?
PeterL: lmgtfy: comes from French, poupe -> Stern
verisimilitude: Let me make a correction: It's from PVPPIS, Latin.
verisimilitude: PVPPIS PVPPIM PVPPIS PVPPI PVPPE
PeterL: La poupe, elle et la derriere du le bateau (or something like that, it's been a while since I took french)
verisimilitude: A ship is feminine, NAVIS and to sail is NAVIGARE.
verisimilitude: To captain a ship is GVBERNARE and he who does this is GVBERNATOR.
verisimilitude: Amusingly, sailor is NAVTA and this looks feminine, but is masculine.
phf: i don't know why it's taking so long for our resident latinologist to point out that both poupe and poop besides coming from the same root developed from two separate meaning of the latin original. the first one is literal, and the second one is a euthemism, so the silly nautical pun accidentally merged the word back together
verisimilitude: I had to piss.
verisimilitude: Also, I forgot about that.
verisimilitude: Lastly, it's ``latinist''.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 15:44:46 phf: always pleasant when you're doing something and hit one of those html1.0 sites. prepping up for 4th of july so was searching "nichrome igniter redundancy" first result (dunno how relevant to question, but definitely relevant to subj) https://www.nakka-rocketry.net/igniter.html
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1109082 << nope, and not in the bolix emulator either; whole fucking point is that it gotta work on erryday comp where errythingelse happens
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 15:39:37 verisimilitude: Has asciilifeform tried to write this in TempleOS before now?
asciilifeform: and with clean motion of text to/from other progs
phf: verisimilitude: i knew you're going to correct that one, but it's a joke see: victorians liked to invent new words, that were typically badly constructed, that's when we got most of our latin-greek chimera words. latinologist by analogy with egyptologist which was a popular pastime among various encyclopedists, and equally amateurish :}
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1109094 << "Prenez garde a l'eau!" for the landlubbers.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 16:12:30 PeterL: La poupe, elle et la derriere du le bateau (or something like that, it's been a while since I took french)
verisimilitude: i knew you _were_ going to correct that one
phf: can't win them all
verisimilitude: That's a frustrating aspect of English contractions, really.
phf: but on more interesting subject, ovid in metamorphoses uses puppis to mean something naval already
phf: at least two i found so far
verisimilitude: I so look forward to reading these authors in their true words.
phf: e.g. e puppi pontum prospectat adunca et flenti similis "non haec mihi litora, nautae, promisistis"
phf: from deck sea look something and something like "non something something shore, sailors, promised"
verisimilitude: Ah, I figured when I wrote PVPPE earlier it were wrong, but didn't think about it too much. It's PVPPI in both cases.
verisimilitude: The river TIBERIS shares the same pattern with PVPPIS.
phf: also first translation i found is pretty bad.. "And from the deck the rising waves survey'd, And seem'd to weep, and as he wept he said: And do you thus my easy faith beguile? Thus do you bear me to my native isle?" you can kind of glimpse some similarity to the original meaning..
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1108920 << quite frankly, I wouldn't be suprised if intel has one baked w/ ME turd.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 13:23:59 asciilifeform: diff is that is actually possible, hypothetically, to bake fpga into cpu (intel even made noises about offering one, tho naturally 100% closed shitware) ; then when someone devises a new instr for $op, ~all~ the irons could use it
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: they sell one (with the 100% closed-bitstream fpga they got from swallowing altera) , naturally w/ ME , how else
asciilifeform: nfi whether it runs at main clock, or any other detail, couldn't be arsed
crtdaydreams: what I'm saying is I would not be surprised if baked into just about ~every~ cpu, a small FPGA intercept between main components.
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: prolly not 'every' and 'between all component', fpga fabric is expensive delaywise
crtdaydreams: But not true and no evidence, just hypothetical :P
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1108818 << mebbe chip-8, 8080, Icebreaker will most likely be simply learning toy.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 10:08:08 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1108808 << what are you thinking of baking on it ?
asciilifeform: much easier to bake a dedicated boobytrap (where e.g. fetching a certain string from memory triggers exec of same)
crtdaydreams: asciilifeform: hm, e.g. _NSAKEY :P
asciilifeform: well presumably w/out the convenient label lol
crtdaydreams: or whateverthefuck ME cleaner does.
asciilifeform: 'me cleaner' simply let you boot (some) intel boxes w/out a dedicated me update turd in bios
asciilifeform: ( for amd, not even this type of 'cleaner' yet discovered )
asciilifeform: nor , naturally, any way to know whether the advertised booby is the only one, etc
crtdaydreams: Wondering about basis for FPGA lispm or sane computing atm.
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: what about it ?
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: atm there aint a suitably large homogeneous fpga
asciilifeform: (with reversed bitstream spec or otherwise)
crtdaydreams: ofc, in "ideal world," but an extension from your 7laws should be all hardware can be manipulated by the operator
crtdaydreams: such manipulations should never cause a loss of data, etc.
asciilifeform: the 'what', asciilifeform described 'to death'; the 'make outta what' is open problem
crtdaydreams: I get. but here me out, I'm going to attempt metacircular hardware lang.
crtdaydreams: I think it's possible in lisp to express hardware with s-exp, code blocks, macros and functions.
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: go, attempt. if you can get it into 85k lut, can then 'hardware', otherwise imaginary strictly
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-20 17:07:54 asciilifeform: tops out at 85k LUTs.
crtdaydreams: I'm thinking for FPGA something not lisp size, but still has that capacity. A proof-of-concept for metacircular hardware.
asciilifeform: what means 'not lisp size, but still has that capacity' ?
asciilifeform utterly failing to parse that sentence
crtdaydreams: err, * not lisp size, but has the capacity for metacircularity
asciilifeform: cuz sounds like yer speaking of 'i'ma attempt a satellite launch, inside my basement, so what if ceiling is 2metres, is proof of concept'
crtdaydreams: possib. but making a hardware language to program the hardware shouldn't be gargantuan.
crtdaydreams ofc totally willing to admit the idea is impossible, but will see for himself after messing with Icebreaker for a couple months.
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: depends on what means 'program the hardware'
asciilifeform: the opensores ice40 toolchain is coupla GB of liquishit, for instance
asciilifeform: ( and for nontrivial designs, easily runs for coupla hrs / eats coupla dozen GB of ram , on x64 pc )
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: bake a , lol, 'helloworld' 1st
crtdaydreams: apologies for telling you to add to your 7laws
asciilifeform: 'i'ma build a metro in my city' 'have you ever built a doghouse'
crtdaydreams: but imo, metacircular hardware theoretically sounds great on paper
asciilifeform: lotta things sound great on paper
crtdaydreams: yes, I cut and weld shit together on the daily.
crtdaydreams: building standing desk atm, salvaged an old school desk, chipboard lid, all silkyoak body, turning into drafting table
crtdaydreams: got a slab of silkyoak for the lid, beautiful piece.
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: whatcha using for the lift ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-13 20:55:31 asciilifeform: has standing desk, and bought what he thought was the strongest lift (bought lift and massive butcher block thing separately) but the thing has trouble moving without some manual 'push' from below -- asciilifeform has a little moar than the max rated mass bolted to the top & bottom of the thing...
crtdaydreams: holes and pins on this unit
crtdaydreams: shouldn't be changed often
asciilifeform: so, standing-only
crtdaydreams: pretty much, or tall drafting chair
crtdaydreams: designed a schema for "variable height" desk with steel rope running in pulleys inside rhs
crtdaydreams: lacking the slab to make it happen though
crtdaydreams: above suffers from "if you lift up the table, the legs will fall off!!111" though
crtdaydreams: would be hell to transport for that very reason
asciilifeform: how often you need to transport it?!
crtdaydreams: could fab and sell for $$$ profit, but otherwise from delivery or say moving house, never.
crtdaydreams: but if vex is right, could be but a pipe dream
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 23:29:39 vex: steel is about to get super expensive
asciilifeform: over here, is the wood that's expensive
crtdaydreams: how much for a length of 40x40?
crtdaydreams: eh roughly
asciilifeform: 40x40xwhat?
crtdaydreams: a length, so 6000
asciilifeform: a desk-sized solid wood (of cheapest type) is 7-8k$ , last saw
asciilifeform: moar if you haven't an enclosed space in which to finish it and need it finished
crtdaydreams just realized that $ in USD not AUD
asciilifeform: most desks you'll see in shops are of shitboard (mdf)
crtdaydreams: fuck me
crtdaydreams: was about to say, eh on the high side, but for a really good slab of e.g. walnut, not at all unreasonable
crtdaydreams: yeah nah, shit's fucked
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-24#1109145 << now that I think about it, this is like walking into a kitchen and telling the chef how to cook, despite never having cooked e.g. mashed potato.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-24 18:33:16 crtdaydreams: ofc, in "ideal world," but an extension from your 7laws should be all hardware can be manipulated by the operator
verisimilitude: A professor once said ``There are no stupid questions, only stupid students.''.
asciilifeform had class from the prof. iirc phf too...
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