Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-06-21 | 2022-06-23 → ↓
signpost out in nc at uncle's atm to drink and plink.
signpost: death to computers indeed. all we need is a few good mentats.
signpost: can't even load these vids over this intermittent one bar connection. it's great.
asciilifeform: 'It is by will alone I set my mind in motion...'(tm)(r)(c)
phf: a process cannot be understood by stopping it. understanding must move with the flow of the process.
verisimilitude: I disagree, phf.
signpost: the thing about hierarchy is that there are those with whom you may not disagree.
signpost: such as frank herbert.
verisimilitude: Perhaps some can't, but that's not a general rule.
verisimilitude: It's different here, signpost.
verisimilitude: No gods, no kings, no bedtimes.
asciilifeform: herbert not 100% consistent, but moar fun if one can fughet it for a spell
phf: i think herbert was only good for one book, made a perfect heroes journey, then started to deconstruct it, 70s tweed jacket man style, "well, you see, noe can't really be a hero"
signpost rather likes the downfall of messiah. but it suits my kinks.
asciilifeform when covided in bed, against all advice from folx who knew better: ate dune 2 -- 4, barfed mightily
phf: "man acquires godhood, competently solves his problems, lives happily ever after"
phf: you can't spell derrida without reeeee
verisimilitude: When I likely had covid, asciilifeform, I merely hallucinated.
verisimilitude: I thought some strange things were going to happen to me, despite being aware of my hallucinating.
phf: king david talked to the genies, negotiated deals, enriched himself and his subjects, and yet the educational narrative from then on is on the dangers of attemping to repeat his feat. i wonder why that is!
verisimilitude: Do as I say, not as I Jew.
asciilifeform: per 'uncle al' , the seekrit of genie invocation and carpet flight may've been syrian rue (harmaline)
asciilifeform not tried, cannot confirm
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108142 << it sort of recovers with the god emperor, but like tolstoy who hated beautiful people, particularly women, so /had/ to make them into vapid bimbos, who are punished in the end: says more about the author than it does about anything objective in th reality.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 00:22:07 asciilifeform: when covided in bed, against all advice from folx who knew better: ate dune 2 -- 4, barfed mightily
asciilifeform: that 'god emperor' was prolly the most mp-like character asciilifeform ever encountered in fiction
signpost: power being the satanic urge which brings its own destruction is certainly slave culture of some kind.
phf: including the part where tragic hero?
asciilifeform: phf: possibly
verisimilitude: Yes, signpost.
verisimilitude: How convenient, that the good people shouldn't ever step down to the level of those who rule.
verisimilitude: I just need a Pinky to go with my brain.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: didja read the b00kz re which thrd, or unrelated point ?
verisimilitude: I thought we were talking about David.
phf: signpost: is not, ftr, inherent to christianity, possibly even quite recent invention, where genie like narratives, which were perhaps an equal part of didactic canon, come to dominate. if you e.g. read shakespear, daedalus narrative is almost entirely absent
phf: shakespear who, i believe, pretty much fully documented the scope of human drama, somehow forgot to develop daedalus story? get the fuck outta here. it's not a thing. it's slave fairy tale.
verisimilitude: Oh, I'll be reading a version of that in Latin soon.
verisimilitude: It's told in an upcoming chapter of my book.
verisimilitude: That should be fun.
phf: if you git gud, as the kids say, you're gud. sometimes hubris, sometimes accident might bring you down, but it's not news worthy. there's nothing to learn from that (maybe a little bit the hubris part). yet somehow every 20th century author needs to tell you how being a god is not really being a god? have they fucking tried?
verisimilitude: This reminds me of something.
verisimilitude: I saw this recently: ``Don't try to be better than others; try to be better than yourself.''
signpost: phf: I forget the source of a possibly apocryphal tale of an experiment with apes, but it has served as a useful symbol either way.
verisimilitude: This is good advice. I'm already better than others, so I should aim to be better than I was.
signpost: (slow connection)
signpost: they would put extra food on a special table and punish the apes with a hose if they approached to take the food.
asciilifeform: phf: the edas pov re 'gods also can have problems' -- unrelated to 'christian slave' pov, but imho interesting
signpost: *punished all the apes for the transgression of one.
signpost: eventually they start self-policing and beating up the apes that approach the holy table.
verisimilitude: ``This is the way things are done around here.''
signpost: later they remove the reward and the holy table's still defended.
signpost: they rotate new apes into the cage, ones that haven't seen the punishment or the food, and they learn the "beat the ass of the table approacher" behavior just the same.
verisimilitude: Yes, don't forget, signpost, they also replace the apes, and eventually none have received the punishment.
signpost: right
asciilifeform: is how 'culture' worx
verisimilitude: We can liken this to those who enjoy the C programming language.
signpost: gonna hit the hay, but I quite agree that WE INVENTED GOD.
phf: signpost: i like this yarn, but i believe humans have protective mechanism, that monkeys lack: some % of humans have a intentional mutation, will approach the table no matter what. e pur si muove and all that
verisimilitude: Sleep well.
verisimilitude: So we're the mutants, right phf?
signpost: mhm. I should clarify that it is a narrow "we" that above invented.
signpost: goodnight gents.
phf: laters
verisimilitude: So with them gone, what will we discuss, phf?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 00:49:52 verisimilitude: So we're the mutants, right phf?
verisimilitude: I tried to translate that sentence into Latin; here's at what I arrived:
verisimilitude: NVM ERGO MONSTRA SVMVS
verisimilitude: ``Thus we are the monsters?''
verisimilitude: I wonder if ERGONE be appropriate.
verisimilitude: I'll never forget the delightfully concise way I asked my dog if he were cold:
verisimilitude: FRĪGĒSNE, Beaureguard?
phf: i don't understand this form, and your umlauts don't help. i'd probably say frigus es
verisimilitude: I'll explain.
verisimilitude: I can make a question by appending NE.
phf: ah i get it
verisimilitude: FRĪGĒRE (to be cold)
verisimilitude: FRĪGIDVS -A -VM (cold)
verisimilitude: FRĪGEŌ (I am cold)
verisimilitude: FRĪGES (thou art cold)
verisimilitude: FRĪGĒS (thou art cold)
verisimilitude: FRĪGĒSNE (art thou cold)
verisimilitude: ESNE FRĪGIDVS (art thou cold)
verisimilitude: Latin is fun.
phf: lingua morta, ita optima lingua loqi ad sui :>
verisimilitude: I'll try.
verisimilitude: ``A dead language, thus the best language for me to speak.''
verisimilitude: I mainly don't understand SVI here, and I believe it's MORTVA.
phf: sui is self, oneself
phf: but my grammar is probably off
verisimilitude: That's what I figured, but AD requires an accusative in all cases, from what I know.
phf: best language to speak to self :)
verisimilitude: We agree, phf.
verisimilitude: Also, since it would be the indirect object, that would be dative.
verisimilitude: The dative is SIBI.
verisimilitude: Also, I didn't recognize ITA until I reread it, but it means ``in that way''.
phf: conjunctions are actually easiest to recall..
phf: sid et sic ita tam
verisimilitude: Perhaps this be closer to correct:
verisimilitude: LINGVA MORTVA EST OPTIMA LINGVA LOQI SIBI
phf: well, no, that changes meaning
verisimilitude: LINGVA MORTVA EST OPTIMA LINGVA QVAM LOQI SIBI
phf: the meaning was "it's a dead language, therefore" not "dead language is"
verisimilitude: I suppose I should stop now. I'm better at reading it, unfortunately.
verisimilitude: I'll improve.
phf: i wonder how long it'll take me to remember most of it..
verisimilitude: Also, those are easiest to recall because they're indeclinable INDĒCLĪNĀBILE.
verisimilitude: Many words ending in ``ble'' and ``ion'' are Latin in origin.
verisimilitude: Even ``me'' is Latin, MĒ.
phf: where are you with it at this point? can you read e.g. ovid? or cicero?
verisimilitude: I've just learned the past perfect tense, PRAETERITVM PERFECTVM.
phf: quod nos amavimus qua occidimus :p
phf: i think i messed that up
verisimilitude: ``What we have loved ??? we rise.''
verisimilitude: The QVA is feminine, singular, ablative of ``whom''.
phf: what we have loved that we have killed
verisimilitude: Well, ``who''.
phf: occidere
verisimilitude: Oh, not to rise, but to fall, right.
verisimilitude: We get Orient and Occident from those words.
verisimilitude: Oh neat, I've not learned that similar word yet, phf.
verisimilitude: I grow weary of typing, but this has been fun, phf.
phf: so qua is not really appropriate there, but i don't remember if i'd replace it with qui, illud or just go with hic. you can never go wrong if you go with hic
phf: rule of highschool latin is that you can pretty much replace any conjuction with hic, which makes it sound latiny, but ovid would disagree
verisimilitude: Well, HIC can mean ``this'' when singular, masculine, and nominative, or it can mean ``here''.
phf: anyway, this is kind of like when i go to paris, if i don't disregard your lating rumblings, will probably recall most of the language in a week or two
phf: *latin
verisimilitude: The latter meaning is actually HĪC.
verisimilitude: It amuses me how the programming board of Lainchan, my primary hangout, hasn't helped me at all; it was the literature board I rarely visit.
phf: both are a lie
verisimilitude: Elaborate.
phf: imageboards are echo to narcissus
verisimilitude: Sure; it depends.
verisimilitude: Every so often, one such as I rises out from the anonymous morass.
verisimilitude: I wouldn't be here if I only believed in anonymous chats, however.
verisimilitude: But sure, I don't disagree phf, because one thing better than no one having names is being the only one with a name.
phf: aka namefag :p
phf: imageboards are also windmills to don quixote or syrens to odysseus
phf: and for some it's pythia
phf: but for all it's mara
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 02:04:38 phf: but for all it's mara
adlai|text: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108188 << obligatory namedrop of Daniel Dennett's book, Breaking the Spell, which describes monotheism (and several other forms of supernatural belief) as emergent phenomena, rather than inventions.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 00:48:39 signpost: gonna hit the hay, but I quite agree that WE INVENTED GOD.
adlai|text: he could've equally named it "The Selfish Meme", although it's quite obvious that he did everything he could for that book to still reach audiences who had been alienated by Dawkins's "The God Delusion".
adlai|text: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108152 << am I the only regular here who's read all six, and even one of the posthumous imitations by his son?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 00:31:34 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108142 << it sort of recovers with the god emperor, but like tolstoy who hated beautiful people, particularly women, so /had/ to make them into vapid bimbos, who are punished in the end: says more about the author than it does about anything objective in th reality.
adlai|text: the relationship between Heretics and Chapterhouse to the previous four, is remarkably similar to the relationship between Tehanu and the original Earthsea Trilogy.
adlai|text: although I must admit that Heretics was pretty good, despite stinking strongly of the author attempting affirmative action to rebalance the gender stereotypes of the earlier books.
adlai|text: imo, Chapterhouse is terrible, although for reasons unrelated to gender of the character carrying forward the plot. it simply reads like a book that the author was pressured to send off to the publisher before dying.... "this is not writing, this is only typing".
adlai|text: I freely admit that the reason I had patience to read God Emperor thoroughly, instead of skimming along, is that I read the last ~quarter of Children while under the influence of no prizes for guessing what.
adlai|text: and nobody even ever told me, "if you're gonna spend an entire acid trip reading, then do so after having read the first 2.75 books of the Dune series, then finish Children of Dune while blitzed". it was just blind luck.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108203 << asciilifeform had occasion to observe several times engl-speaking folx learning their 1st reasonably intact -- with declensions, etc lang, and always reaction similar to this: 'where was this my whole life, wai no one told me' etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 01:01:02 verisimilitude: FRĪGĒSNE, Beaureguard?
dulapbot: (trilema) 2019-09-29 asciilifeform: this is btw a long-standing q in asciilifeform's head -- wai is it that lang knobs only ever seem to ~fall off~ in archaeologically-visible period. almost as if they were only formed in 'supernovae' of some sort, and then afterwards only decay
asciilifeform: ( well, almost always. )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108189 << tbf the monkeys may have similar mutants, but the timescale of the experiment won't likely show'em. ( and arguably similar 'experiments' with humans -- likewise not always show'em )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 00:49:05 phf: signpost: i like this yarn, but i believe humans have protective mechanism, that monkeys lack: some % of humans have a intentional mutation, will approach the table no matter what. e pur si muove and all that
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 00:45:54 verisimilitude: We can liken this to those who enjoy the C programming language.
phf: asciilifeform: computing field is rife with the kind, naggum didn't want towrite C so much he died of ulcer in protest! :)
asciilifeform: (or was, at any rate)
asciilifeform: the current gen of 'monkeys' for the most part aint even aware the 'table' is there, however.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108284 << 'now don't tell me that part of the story when the cowboy falls in love / when he traded in his pistol and his saddle and the stars above / when the candle's burnin' down, when midnight comes around / when the best that he can hole for / is to be laughing when he finally hits the ground ...'(tm)(r)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 06:10:16 adlai|text: the relationship between Heretics and Chapterhouse to the previous four, is remarkably similar to the relationship between Tehanu and the original Earthsea Trilogy.
asciilifeform: * hope for
phf: i'm trying to recall what was the lyceister conclusion on latin, if the grammar was more elaborate than russian or not. i think there's some compound past tense forms that exist that are better formalized, but that also exist in archaic ru forms
phf: but also there's some difference between proper latin as taught and ovid latin. when i was studying queens english was also under the impression that there's multiple past tense forms, came to america, realized that "we waz kangz" is all the grammar one really needs
verisimilitude: Some of us still speak English and not ebonics, phf.
verisimilitude: It helped to properly learn English before beginning with Latin; I never struggled with TV ``you'' (singular) and VOS ``you'' (plural).
asciilifeform: "we waz kangz" << oblig. 'Zehn Orks sennen wir gewesen...'
asciilifeform in unrelated lulz, picked up phone: 'it's macrofab co. wai you not ordered moar boards? we miss you'
verisimilitude: How amusing.
asciilifeform: recall, moar or less equiv. of their whole line can be had for less than gently used toyota, lol
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-17 16:44:26 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in misc. irons, apparently a complete chinese-style production like (x-y paste jetter, pick'n'place, conveyor, reflow oven) can be had naodays for ~15k $ , comes in 1 shipping container
phf: ... fabbing custom pirate john deere boards for the amish and the heartland folk using a chinese manufacturing shipping container in the backyard. i think this is the kind of cyberpunk i'm ok with
asciilifeform would be surprised if no one is already doing ^
asciilifeform: johndeere aint exactly 'lispm'-obscure
asciilifeform: iirc they're nearly unusable, to smalltime operator, w/out cracking
phf: asciilifeform: i think it mostly follows the principle of "мыши плакали, кололись, но продолжали жрать кактус"
asciilifeform: crapple-style
phf: heartland are the last vestiges of law and order also
asciilifeform: ( for other folx: 'the mice cried, pricked themselves, but continued to munch on the cactus' )
asciilifeform: meanwhile in again wholly unrelated lulz, this was purportedly achieved by some folx, 'outta matchsticks and acorns', but asciilifeform broke teeth attempting to get the megatonne of gnarly deps standing up on any of his boxen, so problem remains open.
dulapbot: (pest) 2022-06-18 asciilifeform: fugheting about illustrations for a moment, what asciilifeform was looking for is an item which generates something maximally approximating the current html form but from latex src, rather than the enfuriatingly moronic markdown
phf: asciilifeform: oh you just need http://hevea.inria.fr
phf: it's a standalone ocaml code, properly implements tex language, and then has a bunch of latex predefined handlers
phf: also lets you define own
asciilifeform: phf: have you tried it with latexisms containing graphics ? (does it do the Right Thing , i.e. shit'em to bitmaps and embed links to same)
phf: has formula to html and formula to image mode (in fact lets you mark regions for "to image" and it'll spit out image for you)
asciilifeform: a hm then maybe yes
asciilifeform will try it
phf: asciilifeform: i maintained cmucl's documentation with it for a bit
phf: and with cmucl's case was tricky, because you had to make hevea spit out decent html from legacy latex, without touching latex (for philosophical, cut in stone reasons)
phf: but if you're writing from scratch, then..
asciilifeform: defo seems interesting. how does it handle links ?
phf: i did this riscv spec in an hour for friends doing moscow state university course http://glyf.org/tmp/riscv-spec.html it's very rought draft, but you can kind of see the quality. somebody else took it over and made it shiny
asciilifeform: and lol that was fast...
asciilifeform: phf: very good quality, by all appearances; nao if only asciilifeform knew how to get that thing to build, lol
phf: asciilifeform: i build it manually, but then i also have higher tolerance for that kind of bullshit. recall i made eulora build on mac :>
asciilifeform goes to build manually
phf: good luck! :D
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-21 23:31:11 phf: asciilifeform: that's because computers are a judeo-masonic abomination. disregard technology, embrace trvdition
asciilifeform: lol, this time :
asciilifeform: File "misc.ml", line 61, characters 20-34:
asciilifeform: Error: Unbound module Stdlib
asciilifeform: Command exited with code 2.
phf: i wonder why emerge fails, i imagine you have old versions of both ocaml and hevea, should play nice together
asciilifeform prolly paying for the sin of already having a 2000s ver. of ocaml on that box, lol
phf: aaah
asciilifeform: last paste was from vendor's current tgz
phf: right
phf: ok, i just checked, hevea-2.36 builds with The OCaml toplevel, version 4.12.1 and ocamlbuild 0.14.1
asciilifeform: phf: ty
asciilifeform after the traditional gentoo whack-a-mole -- built...
asciilifeform: phf: notbad. (at least for basic helloworld turd w/ sections, toc, etc) worx outtathebox!!
asciilifeform ~2decade ago (recreationally) picked up ocaml, still somewhat fond of it despite well-known gnarls. considered & rejected it at one pt for #t worx
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-03-03 asciilifeform: ^ ocaml, say, is right out
asciilifeform: loox pretty good, tho, if stood next to various 'modern' atrocities, imho
phf: if nothing else, it's a solid constructor, missing bits can be added, etc.
asciilifeform was surprised that their most recent compiler built without much complaint on dulap-gentoo
phf: ocaml (despite janestreet and their "cool new stdlib") sort of missed the cool kids transformation. mostly hacked on by grownups
phf: we can forgive them being french
asciilifeform associates it in head with fr islands 'that time forgot'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-11 14:14:45 asciilifeform: wonders whether in some forsaken shithole there is still a uni where 'we didn't know the war ended' and lisps etc. ( maybe inria ? iirc as late as '10 was )
asciilifeform wonders if they have a reasonable gc nao
phf: i'm still curious about e.g. mlton that allegedly barely leaks, because aggressive whole program analysis, but i've never had a chance to test that conjecture
phf: also a particularly eager hiki ought to restore stalin scheme back to running for same reasons. "gc so rare you might as well just kill the process from time to time"
asciilifeform at one time suggested gcless scheme for 'standard scripting lang'
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-07-18 19:55:54 asciilifeform: trinque: since you mentioned script langs: considering, after ffa, to attempt a 'dethompsonizing' simple gc-less scheme in asm, in style of 'M' as a scripting lang. can't speak for erryone, but i've wanted a <32kB scripting lang that 'compiles with bare hands' for many yrs.
phf: checkout pre-scheme, from scheme48 stack. s48 was at one time written by competent hackers, borrowed heavily from common lisp, at the bottom written in its own system scheme dialect
asciilifeform: phf: was 1 of the places where asciilifeform cribbed the idea, lol
phf: but again not being a scheme person i have no idea how good of code
asciilifeform: ( there were a coupla of these in '90s , tho asciilifeform does not remember finding one where the sexpr eater is implemented in hand-sewn bytecode to start off with rather than c )
phf: i can easily pick up any random new language but find scheme frustrating. couldn't you make lisp1, lexucal etc. but use maclisp naming conventions?
asciilifeform: phf: seems to be rule rather than exception that folx making new things succumb to temptation to rename errything. (recall e.g. 'arc' and its astonishingly gnarly shorthands)
asciilifeform not innocent of this, having, in his forthlike tossed out or perverted much of traditional forthish notation
phf: chuck moore tossed iso forth entirely, yet in colorforth retained same names for things that stayed. i think that is the right way
phf: but then i generally share this sanskrit like notion of symbol attached to meaning, that permiates old lisp old forth just generally old communities. "when i invented IF" etc.
phf: what's his name, erlang guy, armstrong, had some similar points, argued for global namespace of functions, that one can load into own code, where, having given enough thought to the name one is then careful to attach and maintain its proper meaning
asciilifeform so far quite impressed w/ 'hevea' proggy; ty again phf ! asciilifeform nao fully intends to rewrite pest doc in subj
asciilifeform: rare thing, a tool that actually worx 100% from 1st trigger pull
phf: it has some rough edges (and that's what they are rough edges, can be worked out with some attention to detail), but generally i have a very pleased feeling about hevea
asciilifeform generally fond of above angle, trvdition!, etc. but very few sane things in the field in fact lived long enuff to edge into 'becoming sanskrits'. commonlisp, arguably; and ada had this flavour, was part of the appeal from asciilifeform's pov
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-21 23:31:11 phf: asciilifeform: that's because computers are a judeo-masonic abomination. disregard technology, embrace trvdition
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108376 I can confirm this, but it has also saved me from common misnomers.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 16:00:29 asciilifeform: phf: seems to be rule rather than exception that folx making new things succumb to temptation to rename errything. (recall e.g. 'arc' and its astonishingly gnarly shorthands)
verisimilitude: It's a matter of respect; I don't respect most of computing, and so opportunistically rename things.
verisimilitude: Other renaming is likewise.
phf: i don't respect scheme, but if i were to write it will follow their conventions
verisimilitude: That's some respect.
phf: renamers are also the people who port clojure list manipulation to elisp and then start pushing it into all the projects
verisimilitude: It's Elisp.
asciilifeform draws a sharp distinction b/w renaming ops in a system you baked from scratch vs. 'slipping clojurisms into elisp' but grants that from a 'victim's' pov there may be little diff
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 16:01:31 asciilifeform: not innocent of this, having, in his forthlike tossed out or perverted much of traditional forthish notation
asciilifeform: e.g. postscript didn't keep all forth notation either.
asciilifeform: and afaik no one's ever complained
phf: i suspect two points, that semasiological consistency is a novel concept, and that one is inclined to argue against it by simply having commited a sin against more than once
asciilifeform: in general imho phf's 'sanskrit' concept is applicable widely -- when yer baking sumthing, think, are you contributing to a trvdition and 'such that the field may actually advance', or merely carving yer initials into telephone poles ?
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-04-03 asciilifeform: ( consider naggum's description -- 'our field does not actually advance, because we are broken people who do not learn from mistakes' or how was it. )
asciilifeform: phf: dunno that 'novel concept', all kindsa folx had quite similar notion (e.g. the talmudists)
phf: *novel concept to computer science world
asciilifeform: there yes
phf: and by novel i of course don't even mean i invented it, but subject is rarely discussed. "nobody objects" etc.
phf: i suspect iverson and his students are the people who thought and talked about it the most, but their esoteric take on subj might've obscured the fundamental point
asciilifeform: moar like 'no one had a framework in which to formulate philosophical objection'
asciilifeform: (vs. merely 'personal objection', 'ugh this stinks')
asciilifeform: ( 'philosophical objection' is how you've a chance of making the other fella ~think~, rather than reply with a 'no you stink' obv.)
asciilifeform: this btw is good % of ' what did asciilifeform learn from naggum ' -- formerly asciilifeform was 'zoological' proponent of scheme pov, and has little patience for 'cl culture' (such as it was) , but after eating herr n 's cll thrds led to think
asciilifeform: and imho much of what was 'led to think' about , in fact covered by phf's 'semasiological consistency'
verisimilitude: What does this ``siological'' mean?
verisimilitude: Oh, nevermind.
asciilifeform: prolly s/.../semiological
verisimilitude: I found it.
verisimilitude: Consistency is less important than utility, unto a point.
asciilifeform: unto a point.
verisimilitude: Common Lisp is less consistent, but more practical.
asciilifeform: 'trucks over 5 tonnes will experimentally drive on left side of road first'(tm)(r)(ro)
verisimilitude: As the only APL programmer here, I do look at my such programs with a smile, more often than others.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: and betcha it aint simply because they fit better on yer screen, lol
verisimilitude: However, I also get heavy satisfaction from the Ada programs I write.
asciilifeform: prolly for same reason neh
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 16:09:14 asciilifeform: generally fond of above angle, trvdition!, etc. but very few sane things in the field in fact lived long enuff to edge into 'becoming sanskrits'. commonlisp, arguably; and ada had this flavour, was part of the appeal from asciilifeform's pov
asciilifeform: ... of course one runs the obv. risk. take the trisectors and their 'compass & straight-edge' straightjacket.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-20 20:05:38 dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-20 16:58:28 dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-07-06 erlehmann: http://web.mst.edu/~lmhall/WhatToDoWhenTrisectorComes.pdf
verisimilitude: Perhaps, perhaps for different reasons.
verisimilitude: Machine code hacking in the MMC is also delightful to me.
asciilifeform: ( the very same greeks had arbitrarily precise trisection algo via 'neusis', but declared 'fishing with dynamite' by no less than plato, and fell into disuse , 'cuz not w/ compass & straightedge' etc )
verisimilitude: So, less consistent, but more practical, literally to a point.
asciilifeform: well, not consistent w/ 'compass&straightedge' obv
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108420 << that's not the meaning of the phrase that i'm proposing though, because you probably went to wikipedia for the meaning of semasiology, but like anthropology, or for that mater s.'s parent science semiotics, s. studies symbols in time within their historic context. i could've just said semantic consistency, and that would've expressed what you thought i expressed, but i
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 17:07:55 verisimilitude: Common Lisp is less consistent, but more practical.
phf: intentionally used a high falutin' word, because. semasiology consistency is about symbolic consistency in time and within historic context. on its own common lisp doesn't need to define its functions with "defun", but for semasiological reasons it does
asciilifeform not went to pedopedia and shudders to picture what might find there re subj
verisimilitude: No; I loathe Wikipedia.
phf: common lisp is /highly/ consistent from that perspective with standards writer giving semiotic concerns their due. that's why there's e.g. cadr AND first in the language
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: concept is, approx, that one in fact can win from following in a tradition, and, similarly, build taller ladder for future folx to climb by doing so
verisimilitude: I understood.
asciilifeform: softwarism is fulla ~remarkably~ short and shaky ladders
asciilifeform: and, consequently, folx who aint even aware that it is possible to climb higher than one can stretch neck, if you will
verisimilitude: In hardware, the ladder is stronger and longer, but eventually contains traces of nitroglycerin.
asciilifeform: moar 'taller pile of chairs'
asciilifeform: but imho no reason to torture the analogy, oughta be obv at this pt
verisimilitude: I won't get arrested for torturing an analogy, though.
asciilifeform: sure but it already confessed, lol
asciilifeform: folx who have 0 lived experience 'winning from' a tradition unsurprisingly inclined to categorically piss, 'hey, wainot tcp over horseback courier' etc.
asciilifeform: from the roughly 1870-1970 century when 'things were happenin'!' technologically, for the most part only this hubris remains, 'fuck the past' etc
asciilifeform: w/out any of the 'happenin''
phf: vienna club wore suits and ties though :p
asciilifeform: end of that road tho is 'lift shaft latrines'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 14:33:21 phf: asciilifeform: you're probably not familiar with specific events i'm refering to. in this case tribals are firmly in the traditional social fabric, i'm not talking obama job creation, they drifted from hills towards green pastures, which is their way, but "no one could spare for'em a bullet" ("we can it zimbabwe now don't we?" -- blood diamonds), so simply .. moved in into offices and administrative buildings. "at first we called the
phf: i don't have much speculation on subj, while end of that road, actively trying to figure it out http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106297
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 14:58:02 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106287 << yeah i looked at thread, i don't know anything about quigley otherwise, had to look up who he was for message above. i've long been on rhodesia kick, so i've been reading whatever historic material to put it in context. south africa funded the last plays by the english lordship, and then it all suddenly stopped. yohanesburg now.
phf: *why end of that road
dulapbot: (trilema) 2019-03-28 asciilifeform: https://archive.is/t4imw << subj. asimov.
phf: kek
asciilifeform: painted portrait that indestructible ancient machines would arithmetize for'em,
asciilifeform: fella had nfi re 'aah but didja update!' lulz
verisimilitude: So, I've been thinking about Tabular Programming constantly, really, and I think it would be feasible to have the little language asciilifeform wants by building something around the approach.
asciilifeform: the 'short ladders' is much of wai asciilifeform interested in preserving whatever remains of the old lispm culture, despite fact that on any kinda close examination was a handful of good ideas on a kilometre-tall pile of atrocities
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-11 11:41:04 phf: it's also ancient development practices, which i'm usually all for, but this is the case where some moved on made sense. global package level state in dynamic variables kind of things
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-20 16:46:58 asciilifeform: always found interesting that the commercial lispm's were extremely 'conventional' internally, rather than e.g. 'scheme83'-style apparatus with iron gc , cons-only memory, etc
verisimilitude: I can see myself building a compiler that knows the few basic operations, such as array indexing, and making it possible to get easily-audited code.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ftr it remains a mystery to asciilifeform how the linked piece re 'tabular' might lead to above
verisimilitude: Imagine that program as machine code, say.
verisimilitude: There would be tables, and relatively few instructions to access them to get a result.
asciilifeform: what's one to do with inherently serial problems ?
verisimilitude: Give an example.
asciilifeform: arbitrarily say, sqrt(x) via newton's method.
verisimilitude: Oh, that would either need to be the compiler's responsibility or the programmer would have a large table of the possible answers.
verisimilitude: For any number, it may be ugly, but for just a few thousand, it's manageable.
verisimilitude: The main issue I see is how this would effectively prohibit the programmer from defining new data structures; the compiler would need to know about all of them.
verisimilitude: Does this make sense?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it makes as much sense as this 'computer' lol
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-01-21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when i was a small boy, my elder brother taught me a lesson once:
asciilifeform: wtf is the use of 'table of few thousand answers' if you need to sqrt(x) for even 32bit x's
asciilifeform: (not even speaking of longer ones)
asciilifeform: whatcha even doin' with a computer then? straight to log table in leather binding, 'napier's bones' etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-17 17:10:23 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you see yerself as involved in pure mathematics, rather than aiming to actually solve sumthing in physical reality w/ a comp on sumthing resembling human timescale -- the machine is arguably a distraction, and you oughta be working w/ pen & paper
verisimilitude: No, that's fair; the approach I outline myself would be to reduce the size of that table, somehow.
verisimilitude: I've not thought about it enough.
asciilifeform: that's the thing, serial problem, you can't reduce it, the problem dun decompose that way
verisimilitude: I'm currently poisoning myself by reading something stupid, and it got to me, apparently.
asciilifeform: e.g. multiplication decomposes that way (at some additional cost)
asciilifeform: but universe didn't ship with a guarantee that ~errything~ does.
verisimilitude: Well, let's assume I can't find some good way to attack such serial problems; so what?
verisimilitude: Don't do that then, right?
asciilifeform: ( e.g. division doesn't )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: sadly very few things in fact decompose into e.g. 'fetch from this-here 256 #s'
verisimilitude: I'll remind asciilifeform the universe also doesn't ship with guarantees about cryptography and the like, but this he doesn't mind.
asciilifeform: mind, don't mind, makes 0 diff does it lol
verisimilitude: Yes, exactly.
asciilifeform: 'нравится, не нравится -- терпи моя красавица'
asciilifeform: (tm)(r)
verisimilitude: I'm often told ``It's fine.'' and so enjoy responding ``It doesn't matter if it be fine.''.
asciilifeform: when yer bringing a new crackpottery tho, gotta shoulder the load of making it look even vaguely 'win'
verisimilitude: I need more time.
asciilifeform: ... otherwise reads like knuth's 'Potrzebie system of weights and measures' joak, lol
verisimilitude: I'll divert resources from being a playboy secret agent.
verisimilitude: Ah, how dare asciilifeform so vividly show me how the uninitiated could view my work; it stings.
asciilifeform: tbh can't show 'how uninitiated' , only 'how initiated' lul
verisimilitude: I so clearly see how tabular programming could be viewed as a joke now.
verisimilitude: It's not, but it stings.
asciilifeform: there's nuffin new about it tho, is entirely how e.g. trig was implemented on '70s-'80s pocket calcs
verisimilitude: Yes, but it's not exactly common nowadays.
asciilifeform: ... or for that matter, asciilifeform's father's shelf fulla lookup tables and logarithmic rulers
verisimilitude: There's one thing (most) machines do (in most cases) reasonably well: remember.
asciilifeform: the 'table' approach worx, where it worx, and yer cpu likely contains e.g. 4bit multiplication table. but in a finite universe with finite 'c' you can't, lol, reduce all computation to it
asciilifeform: and attempts to try will indeed look like joak
verisimilitude: Well, it's not only arrays, strictly.
verisimilitude: I also use tries now, as an example.
verisimilitude: The ``tabular'' part refers to filling SOME data structure and then only reading from it.
asciilifeform: for a sane take on what verisimilitude (might be) angling at, see also 'hashlife' ( e.g. )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-05-18 asciilifeform: Framedragger: 'hashlife' was interesting because there are not so many 'martian' breakthroughs -- multiple-orders-of-magnitude speedups -- in algo world.
verisimilitude: There's one problem which can't reasonably be structured as a table of answers, but can partially, and I like the idea of running a one-dimensional automaton using this table over the data to arrive at the answer.
asciilifeform: ( wai manually 'compress' time&space, when can persuade the machine to do it ! )
asciilifeform: let it find the compressibles.
verisimilitude: I've never thought of hashlife in this light, but will mull it over now.
asciilifeform: is exacly in that light that it (borders on) qualitative breakthrough in computation, rather than dusty curio.
verisimilitude: One thing is certain above all else, asciilifeform: Less code is best.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-01 17:31:36 asciilifeform: 'best machine is no machine'(tm)(r)(altschuller)
asciilifeform highly recs to verisimilitude to read gosper's piece. and try w/ own hands
asciilifeform: afaik nobody admitted publicly (outside of #t) to 'getting' it, contemporaries thought it was a curio.
verisimilitude: Link to it.
asciilifeform at 1st when learned of it, could not even locate a copy on www, had to visit a (today -- mostly empty, was decimated) library
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 18:06:11 asciilifeform: for a sane take on what verisimilitude (might be) angling at, see also 'hashlife' ( e.g. )
verisimilitude: Oh, his name was Gosper.
verisimilitude: I've already read it.
verisimilitude: I've read it from that link.
verisimilitude: I'll read it again later.
asciilifeform must bbl
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108461 Say, I don't know the ins and outs of animal husbandry; I must be so silly.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 17:30:27 asciilifeform: recalls asimov's optimistic lulztale re 'and they fughot how to add', fella couldn't picture lift latrines
verisimilitude: Besides, in a purely formal domain, machines truly are better than men in almost every conceivable way.
verisimilitude: ``They forgot how to manually draw silicon schematics.''
verisimilitude: I'll admit it took a few minutes for me to recall how to do long-division properly; I usually use ratios, so I've probably not done it in years; does this make me stupid?
verisimilitude: The story was also written before stochastic algorithms were very popular, apparently.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 19:28:34 verisimilitude: Besides, in a purely formal domain, machines truly are better than men in almost every conceivable way.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-02 14:56:27 asciilifeform: btw verisimilitude , this leads naturally into question : pcb routing is ideal fit for machine optimizer. constraints are easily expressed ('don't cross wires'; 'make'em all as short as possible'; 'reduce layers') and 0 intrinsic text involved. pcb routing is still hell. and 0 movement on this front in
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108550 << problem aint when verisimilitude fughets how to do long division; problem is when you get to the point where ~nobody even thinks is at all relevant how anyffin worx, because 'has always worked, use $library, will always work errywhere'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 19:41:45 verisimilitude: I'll admit it took a few minutes for me to recall how to do long-division properly; I usually use ratios, so I've probably not done it in years; does this make me stupid?
asciilifeform: 1st you simply get stagnation, given as nobody will be making qualitative 'jumps' in anyffin w/out a firm grasp of fundamentals.
asciilifeform: then, at some pt, irreversible decay, when even the basic grasp req'd for handling an unexpected problem becomes exotic 'wizardry'
verisimilitude: That happened before we were born, then.
asciilifeform: 'fdiv bug'(tm) was possib. 1 of the 'first swallows of spring', but debatable subj
asciilifeform: the bare fact, imho, rather obv. tho
verisimilitude: But, yes, I've already given thought to how the tool builder has the muscles from work without the tool, but not necessarily his successors.
verisimilitude: One solution is playing without the tools for a while, beforehand.
asciilifeform: sorta what schooling (used to be) about
verisimilitude: Anyone who doesn't decide to learn outside of school was going to be a fool anyway.
asciilifeform: doesn't matter where in particular you learned long division when you were 5yo. so long as it doesn't consist of 'press this button'
asciilifeform: ( nor is it strictly about 'what'll you do if the button aint connected', either )
verisimilitude: What those fictional fools truly forgot is how to think at all.
asciilifeform: ' Reality is, roughly speaking, analog. You can convert an analog world to something digital, but when this happens, it is rare to use more than 16 bits. 8-12 is more typical. In most cases, the mantissa of your “real number” only has a few actual bits of information in it. Slide rules acknowledge this fact. You can see it on the physical rules themselves, which are essentially logarithm tables. You don’t get 64
asciilifeform: bit precision floats in your slide rule at any point in the calculation, just like in “real life.” Propagating around 64 bit results can be useful at times, particularly when running a calculation which iterates many times, but it is more the exception that you really want this extra precision, and you could fool yourself with it on a calculator/computer. You can’t make this mistake using a slide rule. The slid
asciilifeform: e rule trains you to think about what numbers corresponding to physical reality means. Sure, I don’t want to do my book keeping or HFT time coordinate on a slide rule; those are basically integer problems (on a computer) where the bits all mean something important. But in roughing out the design for a wing or jet turbine blade, or even in calculating a p-value those extra bits absolutely don’t mean anything. Slide
asciilifeform: rules give 2-3 significant decimal digits of precision. When calculating things involving matter, that’s about right. You can design things made out of matter which require more significant digits, but it’s very likely a bad design if you do...'
verisimilitude: Learning Latin re-taught me on why we even have many units of measurement.
verisimilitude: It's so common nowadays to just use billions or trillions of whatever.
asciilifeform: hyperinflation will do that, lol
verisimilitude: With Roman numerals, this isn't an option, but making new units and counting those instead works.
asciilifeform: old-style jp system -- similar
vex: did romans ever visit japan? is that where ramen came from?
verisimilitude: Ramen is Chinese, vex.
vex: I really should drag my arse up there one day, I'm quite sure I won't know what the fuck is going on.
vex: complet namasensei is about an 8 hour watch. coincides with flight time. meybe I'd be alright
vex: can you smoke in bars there?
vex: almost certainly
vex: what does one even do on a visit to japan? walk up mount fuji without a joint and write a haiku about the futility of life?
vex: prolly that, also walk backstreets while people look
vex: i'm guessing there's gonna be interesting shi to see wherever one goes
vex: basic lattitude adjustment; I needn't 'ven wind my watch
vex: mebbe hit up a library or two
vex: Anyone know how to ask -can I haz microfiche access- in .jp?
vex: um. can u read japan?
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-22#1108587 << It's a land of awesum sports cars (The non-Douchesenski types) so live a little and take one for a tear around the mountains.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-22 21:21:25 vex: what does one even do on a visit to japan? walk up mount fuji without a joint and write a haiku about the futility of life?
vex: what else to hire than a douche?
shinohai: That's after you've blown through a set of pilot sports and need the release.
vex: need any mazda parts?
vex: I ain't renting shit. train is fast enough
vex: mebbe I borrow a kawasaki, but this is only a dream
vex: do you know shinohai, can a gaijin walk in and buy a kawasaki?
mats: ramen is japanese
vex: ^ i'm with mats
mats: same noodles done differently
vex: have you been to japan mats?
mats: no
vex: me neither
mats: fuck em
vex: they were alone for 1000 years or something right?
mats: if only that were the case
vex: School us
mats: america should have dropped four bombs instead of two
vex: ouch
mats: some real history right there
vex: end of lesson?
vex: regarding divergent evolution, I'll let you know; kangaroos aren't so tuff. it's basicly a big floor possum
asciilifeform: mats: iirc they had 3 bombs in stock, total
vex: one wonders what would've been mats third target
asciilifeform: mats: what've the 'japs' done to you outta curiosity ? ( and please let the answr not be 'nanking beheading contest', lol. somehow folx fixate on specific weapons , where ohnoez, beheadings, but brits starving ireland or india to over9000x the count somehow a++ and evokes ~no measurable grudgewank today )
vex: the dude is chinese, there is ancient `beef'
asciilifeform: pretty recent beef iirc
vex: don't bomb kawasaki
asciilifeform: jp picked up euro tech , while cn was busy under empress cixi 'railroads banned, trains make noise' etc. then picked up 'wai not us also have colonies' and gave white man best 'run for the money' to date.
asciilifeform: hence, as asciilifeform suspects, the resentment. (historically jp was backwater, like korea, not worth 'time of day' from cn pov)
asciilifeform: ( today again backwater. reich 'financialization' did what the bombs could not... )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-11-30 asciilifeform: jp was a hair's width away from picking up the torch that anglotardistan dropped, and anglos knew this, and so in late '80s they engineered an economic implosion for'em
asciilifeform: final 'control shot in the head' was when usg engineered fukushimization (and 'denuclearization') for'em
vex: the industrial revolution really set time on a fast track
vex: ask all your ancestores where to set the time machine. a resounding 2022
mats: japan is a servant to the white man
mats: the most loyal of their foreign dogs
vex: have you got that genetic unique where you get red in the face mats?
mats: whats with all the biographical questions smiley
vex: mats with the flush
asciilifeform: mats: today -- old, anemic servant. wasn't always
vex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BklOrP4rn0U I raise you somwe post war cinema
asciilifeform: ( kr currently the young, energetic servant )
phf: japan built some cool technology
asciilifeform: defo. and not merely '80s cyberpunk' but as early as '30s was on cutting edge of physics etc
phf: i made a bunch of points about japan in old logs, still sticking by them e.g. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2018-01-16#1771504
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-01-16 phf: i believe that in japan land they still have sane hardware produced like that, except they run windows on top of it. some bossman had ritual sake with bill gates (matching honor!) 40 years ago, and since then every japan machine has windows on it
asciilifeform: by some accts, worked out correct (unlike germany's) scheme for tehbomb, in '43-44
mats: you're right
asciilifeform: phf: can't comment re what produced there nao, but the '90s specimens in asciilifeform's collection still impress him
mats: i wonder how china manages demographic collapse
asciilifeform from 'current era' has only the lulzy 'king jim dm30', and thought was mighty cool until the rubber legs liquified, lol
mats: japan seems to have trouble with increasing immigration
asciilifeform: ( subj. loong ago outta print )
asciilifeform: mats: from where ?
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-06-20 phf: the last asian men all committed seppuku when japan lost in world war ii. yukio mishima, a homosexual writer of some repute was so distressed by there not being any men anymore, he tried to organize a coup to restate imperial power and bushido, with predictable results
mats: like in general, no?
asciilifeform: mats: possibly asciilifeform misparsed sentence lol
mats: my fault
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-06-19#1485405 this is specifically re present time hardware
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-06-19 phf: japanese products for american market are all made in china. they are bigger, clunkier and cheaper. authentic japanese item almost always looks and feels more compact, but to acquire one you have to go to weeb websites, or try to wade through export sites with huge markups
asciilifeform not subscribes to 'ohnoez demography' pov: a 1940s or even 1800s population is a-ok if you aint aboutta play in a trench warfare meat contest w/ anybody
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-06-19 phf: i was actually comparing a zojirushi rice cooker that i bought from amazon to the one my jap friend brought from motherland. it's sort of like is somebody designed an item that's supposed to look identical from the distance, but has lower resolution upon closer inspection. missing features, BIG buttons and less of them, cheaper rougher molding. it's hilarious
asciilifeform: phf: aha, noticed this diff, is usually apparent to naked eye
asciilifeform: troo jp iron feels, well, denser, and mechanically 'fits together' (cuz for this not enuff to have injection mold, but need 'binning' of parts)
asciilifeform: 'binning' is necessarily a human-powered process (and need , not 'coolies' but the stereotypical sort of conscientious folx who described in e.g. sov depictions of jp industry in late '80s )
vex: we do allway end up with the binnables
vex: binnacles too
asciilifeform: 'The Parrot and the Carrot one may easily confound, / They’re very much alike in looks and similar in sound...'(tm)(r)(c)(r.w.wood)
vex: ;search dell precision
vex: i did love the celtic vision as prise for uptime
vex: i'm building a boat that'll take a coupla ponies anywher
vex: steel is about to get super expensive
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