crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-29#1109590 << can attest, incl. but not limited to cars; ~everything~ is now chineseum plastic blend with a bit of aluminimum foil over the top
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-29 10:05:23 shinohai: hates new vehicles .....
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in koch lulz.
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109617 << kind of been the case for decades, you have commuter car ("m1 mac") and real cars ("x60")
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 07:09:56 crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-29#1109590 << can attest, incl. but not limited to cars; ~everything~ is now chineseum plastic blend with a bit of aluminimum foil over the top
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109619 << https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/6395399?v=4 "She/Her"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 10:28:53 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in koch lulz.
asciilifeform: shinohai: whossat?
asciilifeform: ( koch?!! )
shinohai: Noh the person that authored the m/l piece.
asciilifeform: shinohai: that circus lulzily reminiscent of shakespear's orig theatre, where can bet 'no actual chix harmed in the making of this production' and never lose, lol
shinohai: "I can't believe it's not butter!"
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109620 << well, cars (lappies) and 'belaz' (proper comp, w/ opterons etc)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 10:49:39 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109617 << kind of been the case for decades, you have commuter car ("m1 mac") and real cars ("x60")
asciilifeform: shinohai: afaik still an interesting enigma, from where came the over9000 bogochix. ( and afaik the most popular theories, e.g. envir pollution, dun hold water -- per the shrinks, most of'em start out as entirely normal-looking d00dz, with no 'warning' )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-18 11:19:50 signpost: highly suspicious of microplastics here.
shinohai: I koff it all up to being a "shared psychotic disorder" where if one banquets at the reddit house of narcissism long enough, you become this.
asciilifeform: sure but wai ~this~
shinohai: Sure fire way to get attention, since you throw on some striped socks and start programming in Rust and suddenly "over 9000!" folks come to tell you how stunning and brave you are.
asciilifeform: shinohai: this wouldn't explain the self-mutilations tho
asciilifeform: if 'socks' suffice
asciilifeform: evidently sumthing moar interesting going on in there
mats: the kids will tell you this is normal
mats: and how it would be if societies weren't oppressing them for millennia
mats: but there's no data so its unknowable
shinohai: I'd imagine being biological male then suddenly pumping body full of estrogen is gonna make you have delusional thoughts - like sawing off tweeter.
asciilifeform: afaik most of'em stop short of the saw
mats: i think the explanation is simpler -- the narratives that societies has on offer today, like nationalism, are no longer sufficient
shinohai: Some yes, they go step further and become absolutely convinced that their penis is just a giant external clit.
mats: and people are now in search for deeper meaning and greater deviance
mats: societies have on offer*
bitbot: (pest) 2022-06-05 asciilifeform: 'see who objects' 'will have problems'
mats: people still need jesus
mats: but that's not cool anymore
shinohai: Well they tried to make God in their image with "Jesus Queen of Heaven" but don't think that played out too well.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-10-01#1060553 << teachings of jesus led straight to today.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-01 14:11:56 signpost: gregory5: inevitable result of the personal relationship with jesus christ implicit in his own teachings.
phf: "greek mythology led straight to the fall of rome"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-01 13:19:47 signpost: this is the truly heretical thing about american protestantism, that it grants peasants the sovereign voice so they can masturbate with it.
signpost: phf: I put a finer point on it than that.
signpost: stable modern psychological operating system does not exist at scale.
signpost: phf: I don't recall; do you practice (or at least have affinity for) orthodox christianity?
phf: signpost: but i've already i believe communicated why i don't agree with that finer point. specifically i just don't believe in eternal solutions, i think specifically that any system for controlling entropy will have upper bound on its operation, and it ought to be judged from the perspective of how well it did and how long it lasted. it sucks that we were born on the tail end of effective christianity though, perhaps get to enjoy
phf: watching the sunset
signpost: ah yeah, then we see the same thing. I'm just bitchier about it being sunset.
signpost grants it had a great run.
signpost: alright, digesting the thought further, do you believe a culture could incorporate cyclicality into itself?
signpost often wonders if he's further back the cultural tree than his ex-sov friends. "hey guys, considered permanent revolution?!"
phf: signpost: i don't think that's possible without some serious levels of conspiracy, and the conspirators then have to not be human :p
phf: i think you can have layers, and by structuring it is a kind of
phf: i think you can have layers, and by making each layer tighter, you'll delay the failure, but when the final, top layer goes, your whole thing will unravel
signpost: yeah, and a major challenge is humans will compete with each other internally on their layer (necessarily, not saying this is avoidable), which hampers their ability to coherently impose order on the layer below.
signpost: probably why having a monogod at the top of the hierarchy isn't a bad idea, depending on what's ascribed to it, and by what process.
signpost: I can even see the usefulness of a jesus, because eventually the distance between the superlative and the squishy human becomes unmanageable, "all fall short".
signpost: but I'm suspicious of the failure modes of "we all have god within us which can redeem"
signpost: anyway, when I discuss this, it's in the spirit of what to build, not merely bitching, but that's about as arrogant as expecting to stop the world and build a sane computer.
signpost: with no disrespect to the patron saint of lost causes.
phf: going back to your question of "are you affiliated with orthodox church". i've given this some thought independently and recently arrived to a point, that i don't have faith, but i'm a man of the book. i suspect there was plenty of men of the book who lacked faith, even at peak chrsitendom, mostly kept it to themselves, or wrote cool edgy shit
phf: problem the way i see it, is that i accept the principles of the book inherently, maybe because i was civilized by it, or maybe because there's something inherently sensible about it (i'll maybe return to this point), but various others don't. we used to scare them with fire and brimstone, or with the glimpses of the transcendental, or with the stories of divine love, or with the holy inquisition, but shit don't work anymore
signpost: that it doesn't work on *them*, and perhaps even worked on *us* to spare them, is what separated me from it.
signpost: whether this is a fair judgment is still wide open in my own book.
asciilifeform: 'god -- dead'(tm)(r), rip
asciilifeform: re 'men of the book' -- a broad enuff flag that it covers just about anyffin you like
phf: cool analysis bro
phf: signpost: i think maybe we understimate to what extent we were living in the world that was constructed and maintained through shared adherence to the book, with faith or without. when you say "separated" i assume you mean you don't go to church or sundays or whatever, but why e.g. you don't steal.
asciilifeform not convinced that e.g. 'not steal' anywhere at any point had anyffin detectable to do with scriptures
signpost: 100% agree we are living in that world, with law and philosophy emanating from it.
signpost: asciilifeform: I consider the book the "logs" which survived by way of holders of the book having survived.
signpost: holders of other books fell to holders of these books.
asciilifeform: signpost: heavily edited 'logs'
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109632 << i believe mp's theory was that the phenomenon is the result of mass self-imposed "solution" to the surplus male problem
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 15:56:49 asciilifeform: shinohai: afaik still an interesting enigma, from where came the over9000 bogochix. ( and afaik the most popular theories, e.g. envir pollution, dun hold water -- per the shrinks, most of'em start out as entirely normal-looking d00dz, with no 'warning' )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-18 11:19:50 signpost: highly suspicious of microplastics here.
phf: asciilifeform: i think it's because you have it inside out, scripture as a kind of "jebus says" that christcucks do, rather than lose collection of laws and principles, that are there as a prescription and warning
signpost: or compressed because historical accuracy does not matter.
shinohai: Code of Hammurabi on "don't steal" far more imposing than that of "scripture" lol.
billymg: becoming a man has always been hard, becoming one in modern society where ~all paths lead to dead end is even harder. so with the choices 'try to become man and probably fail' and 'become woman and get updoots on reddit' -- choice for some is easy
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-09 21:52:10 asciilifeform: is moar or less inevitable reaction for some to 'dead end'
asciilifeform: ( re hammurabi )
signpost: nobody's doing a hammurabi vs bible thing.
signpost: they're not separate
asciilifeform: billymg: the 'cosmetic' pov dun explain wai mutilations tho. if 'cosplay' suffices for 'upvote'
phf: shinohai: ah yes, the famous babylonian jet engines
billymg: asciilifeform: like you said though, most stop short of the mutilations
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 16:05:14 asciilifeform: afaik most of'em stop short of the saw
signpost: phf: at least what's at question in my own gourd is whether the thing *can* be reinstantiated once broken.
signpost: in my selfsame gourd.
signpost thinks not.
asciilifeform: billymg: afaik they normally start & stop with steroids
billymg: it's not just for the upvotes, it's for "getting out of the responsibility of attempting to become man"
shinohai fires up his Aeolipile and cruises over the hanging gardens .....
signpost: what's hard to understand about auto-castration?
signpost: "this thing is the source of all my problems"
signpost: guess what, it is! :D
asciilifeform: signpost: the interesting bit is that it dun quite work
asciilifeform recalls sumbody linking to a 'trans' sufferer's blog where described supposedly-typical 'oscillation' where eats estrogens, loses the drive to do just about anyffin, then stops, then 'goto 10'
asciilifeform: humans evidently dun come with cleanly unscrewable components
asciilifeform: not so much record of eunuchs who achieved sumthing interesting. the only exception asciilifeform can think of immediately is zheng he, but iirc was chopped in ripe adulthood
mats recalls Game of Thrones episode where guy shoves bronze straw into his groin for #1
asciilifeform: mats: this kinda 'prosthesis' common well into 20th c (largely among syphilitics)
shinohai: Why does dribbling mercury through a bronze straw into dick sound like something verisimilitude would do "because the Romans might have done it that way" ?
asciilifeform: shinohai: sounds moar gabe laddel imho
asciilifeform: 'over9000 psychostim boost, all the thiel house folx are doin' it' etc
mats: i have to admit that meth does seem kind of cool
asciilifeform: mats: all kindsa things cool until the meatware starts failing checksum
shinohai: Snort meth, write bluetooth controller in lisp that lets you vibrate a sounding rod.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-17 15:14:46 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: doin' dope 'correctly' is as much a skill as e.g. running a table saw or flying a 'cessna'
asciilifeform: ( and elsewhere )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-08 23:52:04 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-08#1050800 << performance dope aficionados -- unless ~uncommonly~ disciplined -- get nailed by tolerance buildup.
phf: signpost: but what do we mean by broken though. presently still living in the society of the book. doomsday scenarious are still mostly larp, electric works, so does bulk of supply chain, computers being made, can by fresh food, money works, etc. etc. etc. i'm not saying things are good, but consider the totatl failure state.
mats: the coolest thing about meth is the friends you make along the way
asciilifeform: 'collapse will not be announced for erryone on bbc, it happens for you when it happens to you'(tm)(r)(orlov)
shinohai: mats: prolly those same friends that suddenly appeared after gl ingested his biggest line yet and told him "do a backflip off the roof, faggot!". xD
phf: asciilifeform: ennui is a tired joke
asciilifeform: phf: ennui is as lethal as vx, turns out. ( visit e.g. 'middle america'(tm) )
asciilifeform: for some joak; the others aint laffin
phf: why would i go to middle america, when i can also go to any large city? if nothing else "don't want to get out of bed" is a more honest reaction than dance macabre (but i'm not claiming that it's a superior reaction of course)
signpost: phf: broken in the sense that the number of minds capable of sense-making seems to be decreasing, and the difficulty of those finding others increasing.
asciilifeform not visited erry reich shithole, but over here fresh food up 2.5x
asciilifeform: the supply chain 'canaries' aint looking too healthy either
signpost: and yes, if ^ continues I don't expect my neighborhood to pull together and make stone soup. I expect it to collapse.
asciilifeform personally knows several folx who 'not want outta bed'(tm)
phf: asciilifeform: well, you skipped "the wild 90s", assume perhaps that "bottom" is near ;)
signpost: but I live in a decadent "tech" hub. my trip to NC was a nice break.
asciilifeform: phf: personally skipped. relatives in e.g. ukristan not skipped ('eternal '90s') and gave pretty good picture.
asciilifeform: phf: good % of amerireich already 'in '90s' tho, was asciilifeform's observation
phf: anyway, i'm not trying to convince anyone to turn to christ, i had an insight a week or so ago, that perhaps the faith and the book are two separate things
asciilifeform: at least two
signpost: christ still stands there in my mind, or I wouldn't have so much to say about it.
phf: from this perspective i find /public atheist position/ (of which i'm one, that is i lack faith) to be corny af, and also a decade or a dozen behind what's going on
asciilifeform wonders what kinda atheisms dar al islam will decay into
phf: it's kind of like john cleese making fun of british establishment in the '70s, respectable and humorous and generally a great gas, but john cleese in mid 2000s is a different thing altogether
asciilifeform: afaik american 'public atheisms' of 2000s were largely a reaction to perceived resurgence of 'fundamentalist' protestantisms , which had since shot its load
phf: asciilifeform: when you have a witch hunt, you suddently find a lot of witches.
phf: i think 2000s public atheism is a result of social dynamics: collapse of industry in the late 80s, subsequent outsourcing in the 90s means that suburban and rural areas lost opportunity, lots of kids moving out of their chrstian parents's homes, going to university, discovering hitchens and radiohead, etc.
phf: every single dawkins army kid that i knew was from some variation of pennsyltucky, with practicing christian parents, goign "fuck you, dad"
asciilifeform: ^ matches asciilifeform's observations in meatwot
asciilifeform: many of these nao praying to 'fuckingluvvscience'(tm) etc
signpost was more of an "I don't know man, I took a looot of acid, and I saw plenty, but not that guy."
asciilifeform: 'went pretty far into sky, didn't see him'(tm)(r)(gagarin, apocryphally)
signpost: phf: but yes, there's sense of betrayal that the protestant work ethic got their parents a diminished quality of life, and them further still.
phf: "jesus promised my a mansion and a high paying job, i guess i'd rather cut off my dick instead"
asciilifeform: ^ was 2gen ago
asciilifeform: nao is 'they promised that if i get into uni, will have at least own flat, but in reality not even own room'
signpost: makes me wonder if it's a primate thing to offer up the butt when you're starving. have to imagine it is.
signpost: or hell, chimps castrate each other.
signpost: maybe this is them saving you the trouble
asciilifeform: return: welcome to #a
asciilifeform: return: do we know one another ?
return: I don't believe so
asciilifeform: return: who are you, and what brings you to #a ?
phf: signpost: jesus is the name of the whip, that pacifies the hurd, but there are not men left to wield it :> i'm amused that when you start thinking about these things in earnest the kind of phrases that come out are obvious and recognizable
signpost: hm, like which?
return: asciilifeform: I've discovered loper-os.org recently and found this place through there
phf: like the one about the whip :D i just composed it, but it feels like something that would've been said at some point, involving cruel patriarchs and battered women
signpost: ah reparsed correctly.
signpost: and ftr jesus whipping the scum out of the temple's always been my favorite jesus.
asciilifeform: return: do check out the logs, if somehow haven't yet
signpost: hello return. want to give yourself an introduction?
return: hello signpost. I don't want to come out as rude, but in fact no, I don't want to
signpost: lol, ok bud.
asciilifeform: seems strange to bother to delurk but then say ~0, lol
asciilifeform: normally folx have some kinda opener.
phf: many "when boys are coy" threads
asciilifeform recalls brief episode where somebody's deepest seekrit was that he was in fact nigerian, and terrified that anyone might find out
asciilifeform: ( subj )
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-02-12 23:18:09 curiousd0g: it's nigeria
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-02-12 23:18:28 curiousd0g: and n-word pass given, feel free to use it any time
signpost: what a nice guy.
shinohai: I remember that guy, I DM'd him to see if he knew any princes that needed help cashing a check to get their $$$ out of Afrika. :(
asciilifeform: lurking aint a sin, in asciilifeform's book, it beats the shit outta talking when 0 to say imho
signpost: sure, I was just being hospitable to a guest. it's what's done! (see above)
phf: lurking is anti-american, it's what bolsheviks do
signpost: the funny thing about this anxiety-ridden inability to engage in traditional protocol is the thing's there to obviate not knowing what you may do in an unfamiliar setting.
signpost: welcome to my house, can I get you a drink? here are things you may want to use while here, please come sit, etc
asciilifeform: signpost: moar typically sufferers of anonyonanism rather than anyffin else, historically
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 17:30:55 asciilifeform: all anonymity does is to destroy the very possibility of human relations.
asciilifeform: some -- curable
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109727 This is something barbarians would do.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 13:35:30 shinohai: Why does dribbling mercury through a bronze straw into dick sound like something verisimilitude would do "because the Romans might have done it that way" ?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: a bit hightech for barbarians neh
verisimilitude: Look at the fancy genital mutilation machines the barbarians use nowadays.
signpost: still entertains the hell out of me that "barbar" is an imitation of the language of the savages.
phf: roman empire was at the forefront of trans research until christian church got involved!
asciilifeform: at any rate 'bronze straw' was for when you couldn't otherwise piss on acct of having blob of scar tissue where the pisser oughta be
verisimilitude: So, this isn't the return of return, but the turn of return.
asciilifeform: returned 0 lol
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109807 I don't recall having this problem, and I'm more inundated with it than anyone else here. Using anonymous forums doesn't require adopting the social protocol.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 14:33:02 signpost: the funny thing about this anxiety-ridden inability to engage in traditional protocol is the thing's there to obviate not knowing what you may do in an unfamiliar setting.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109809 Don't human relations are inherently valuable.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 14:36:16 asciilifeform: signpost: moar typically sufferers of anonyonanism rather than anyffin else, historically
verisimilitude: Don't assume human relations are inherently valuable, to correct.
signpost: you are no authority on healthy human interaction.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109816 This is neat; I was unaware of this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 14:45:17 signpost: still entertains the hell out of me that "barbar" is an imitation of the language of the savages.
signpost: verisimilitude: do you not see irony in dismissing the value of human relationship *to others*?
signpost: you've a pile of immune reactions to being surrounded by the worthless, but that pile isn't a viable whole.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109821 << even public shitter req'd 'adopting social protocol' ( or will shortly come to resemble the one in timis )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 14:47:30 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109807 I don't recall having this problem, and I'm more inundated with it than anyone else here. Using anonymous forums doesn't require adopting the social protocol.
verisimilitude: I didn't find it to be ironic, no.
verisimilitude: I'll explain.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109830 << fella at considerable risk, aha, of ending up 'hole without the doughnut'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 14:54:34 signpost: you've a pile of immune reactions to being surrounded by the worthless, but that pile isn't a viable whole.
verisimilitude: I did adopt some social protocols at one point, but realized they'd led me to act afool. So, I vowed to no longer allow the medium to influence my such messages. Notice I'm the only one here who always uses proper grammar, spelling, punctuation, and complete sentences.
verisimilitude: I won't be led to act afool again.
signpost: huh? I'm referring to a behavioral protocol.
asciilifeform not chargin' folx per byte, verisimilitude free to as verbose as he likes
verisimilitude: As am I.
verisimilitude: The point is I'll act consistently across mediums, rather than bend to fit them.
verisimilitude: I don't act like the typical anonymous idiot on anonymous forums, either.
signpost: your narcissism prevents your grokking my point.
signpost: anonymous forums are popular because the participants are cowards, and fear that were they to identify themselves whatever tower of chairs supporting their infantile identity would collapse at the first criticism.
phf: old man yells at clowns
signpost: above, I said that what is ironic about avoiding say, introducing oneself, is it's trivial to glide through such a thing with a handshake and a few cached sentences.
verisimilitude: No, I disagree.
signpost: and most functionining adults do.
signpost: *functioning... lag
signpost: phf: even this, the religious impulse, man!
verisimilitude: See return, just give signpost a firm handshake and ask him what beer he likes.
verisimilitude: Maybe talk about football.
signpost: hobbled as you are, can't even construct an amusing caricature of me.
signpost: you'd have to have more than one person in your model of the world.
verisimilitude: How could I model myself without modelling others?
signpost: see, this is the same as phf and I discussing that perhaps it doesn't matter that god's not real, because what's served as alternative is death.
signpost: structured and orderly protocol between human beings might matter more to there being civilization than whether I care that he's a plumber with a rubber nipple collection.
signpost: "say, would you care to put something of yourself in my database of known humans?"
verisimilitude: I neither worship some god nor have a fixation on death.
phf: signpost: have you *ever* had constructive conversations with verisimilitude, why is he still not on your ignore? that's not a rhetorical question, i'm just curious
verisimilitude: I'm not that insufferable, am I?
asciilifeform: phf: dunno how much conversation would remain if errybody killfiled his 'insufferables' lol
signpost: yeah, I don't mind it.
verisimilitude: We number too few for ignoring anyone to seem reasonable, to me.
verisimilitude: If I be the most insufferable, then I'll improve myself, to be but the second-most-insufferable.
signpost: phf: ever employ any kids born >=2000?
signpost: not sure on which side verisimilitude falls, but it's a continuum and gets worse the younger they are.
phf: asciilifeform: i dunno, i'm just not keen on pure flame anymore, i want to see myself or my counterparty grow, or come to a shared new understanding, or even just riff. at times i think you or signpost are the worst human beings ever!!1, but that's usually in the heat of the dabate, which is often resolved, and there's some better understanding of the other's position, and a growing respect. i've not had an interaction like that with
phf: verisimilitude, that's all
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096411 << this thing being ever-more of their developmental experience.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-16 19:04:39 phf: i think that we're experiencing future shock. i think progressivism is a death cult, that arose as a psychological defense against the future shock
signpost: w/e will be civilization, if anything will be, will incorporate rather than reverse this, imho.
asciilifeform: phf: fwiw had at least half dozen 'constructives' w/ d00d, re apl etc
signpost not particularly "flaming" mad, even when leveling a harsh critique.
phf: asciilifeform: you mean like the last conversation on apl where verisimilitude literally just restated my original point?
verisimilitude: I enjoyed our recent discussion about Latin, phf.
signpost: one oughta hear the vulcan-esque critiques that are quietly stated in my household in either direction.
asciilifeform: phf: nah, the 1s where re 'hieroglyphs'
signpost: if you read the transcript, would hear screaming.
asciilifeform: sad but troo, the population of folx even vaguely interested in abstract thinking is vehehery thin. (and most of'em you aint aboutta find 'ionized' on the net, they're happily in some meatwot and won't be caught dead in #a)
signpost: phf: with respect, aren't you approx a decade my senior?
asciilifeform: the 'fermi paradox', if you like, of the modern-day net
signpost: getting kid to coherently repeat what you were trying to teach him is called victory, lol
phf: signpost: i don't think so, we're about the same age, maybe like 5 years apart at most? :} just cause i seem old!
signpost: a ok, just because you have an affinity for 80s and 90s things
phf: signpost: it's a byproduct of ru, and the way culture was brought into the country in the 90s, after the collapse. first half of 90s was basically 80s
phf: i'm pretty sure mp was the oldest of us
asciilifeform: iirc at least 1 ( mocky ? ) was in 60s
signpost: verisimilitude: and I don't expect you to say, but you behave like you're in your late 20s.
phf: anyway, i employe people >2000, but one always has the nuclear option in that kind of relationship. can fire, or threaten to fire, in fact i fired more >2000 than <2000.
verisimilitude: That's amusing to me; I've been accused of being in my twenties all the way to my forties, by others.
asciilifeform: 'young at heart'
signpost: bwahaha, you're >40?!
phf: #a is actually one of my only outlets for polemics left, because sometimes one wants to just run their mouth. irl or online i've cut out pretty much all opportunity for "he said, she said"
verisimilitude: Do the young ones smell different when they burn, phf?
asciilifeform: 'главное, ребята, сердцем не стареть!'(tm)
signpost: send help, my world just broke.
verisimilitude: I won't tell, signpost.
verisimilitude: We'll see soon enough, when we meet in-person.
signpost: phf: some of my best ones had a lot of fungus on the outside, took a lot of power washing and they became my favorites.
verisimilitude: I was going to keep our planned meeting a secret, but decided the others deserve to know what happened if I were to go missing afterwards.
signpost: as I recall you proposed meeting, and I declined, but maybe someday.
verisimilitude: Yes, someday.
verisimilitude: We agreed on someday, recall.
phf: signpost: did they become your associates, stood by your side at the wedding, one day will help you carry your father's coffin? :) i just no longer see the point in this "power washing", going back to the amish thread, we are all first goo
phf: we are all first attached to the state, each other second
signpost: still have some, others lost.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109890 Know I'm much more sufferable discussing programming day-in-day-out; it's not my fault ye wish to discuss so many other topics, like society and whatnot. I can hardly be blamed, really.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 15:27:03 signpost: verisimilitude: and I don't expect you to say, but you behave like you're in your late 20s.
signpost: phf: some of my behavior has more to do with an effort of inward discipline than expectation of outward effect.
signpost: an ongoing thread with my wife involves whether the mould for ^ is belief in monogod in early development.
signpost: there's also the belief that we aren't as individual as recently fashionable.
signpost: can render this biblically too if one likes, that christ tells you love your neighbor because your existence is entangled with his, not because it makes christ happy.
signpost has to acknowledge his own quixotism in this.
phf: ah these are terms i understand and can argue from: i don't believe your coworkers are your neighbors even at face value, but certainly not in the biblical terms
phf: that's what i refer to when i mention "the amish"
mats: my neighbor has these two pugs, one of them is blind and kind of retarded, the other day i watched it waddle from dogshed to water bowl and stop halfway through to pee then lay down in the mess midstream
mats: thats when i knew my neighbor is a bad person
signpost: well, it even says love your enemies, not that I say it having been written is sufficient grounds for belief.
signpost: what I actually believe has more to do with psychedelic experience and a model of being that involves distributed computing as foundation.
phf takes note in small black book
signpost: "shit, there are a lot of nodes that threaten to hard fork to destruction"
phf mutters to self "deus benignus, homo discernit
verisimilitude: Oh, I've been meaning to write about a related topic, signpost. Distributed and untrusted computation depends upon metadata.
phf closes the little black book and puts the pen away
verisimilitude: Something such as Erlang is distributed but trusted.
phf: kind of makes me want to reread name of the rose
verisimilitude: How should I ask another machine to sort numbers for me, signpost, when I want to double-check the response?
signpost: incentive, punishment, and reputation, I'd imagine.
signpost: sorry, you said how should you *ask*. go ahead.
verisimilitude: I'd ask it to compute a function such as this, which has characteristics making verification particularly simple, compared to checking the sorted numbers against the questioned numbers.
verisimilitude: To rephrase, I'd ask it for metadata, not data.
signpost: how do you prove to yourself that the metadata was correctly derived from the source data, without repeating the computation yourself to derive it?
signpost: well, there are things that are harder to compute than verify obviously, but you at least have to verify.
signpost: but I haven't read your article yet.
verisimilitude: I can check a sorted sequence in linear time, and I can similarly check for repetitions and other invalid indices.
verisimilitude: Verifying the metadata has better time characteristics than verifying the data.
phf: divino inquisitori errantum computationum princeps praeceptor don ignatius says "to err is human to compute is divine, for only from divinity can correct computatons stem, and invalid results are sign of malignant influences at play"
signpost: verisimilitude: what is a concise statement of what problem you're trying to solve?
verisimilitude: I'm not trying to solve anything.
verisimilitude: Boredom is the problem, then.
signpost: this was the thing that got me talking about gen-z kids, that it was effort to get them to disgorge the head-state that produced w/e verbal output.
verisimilitude: Oh, so errant thought is now bad?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-07 16:45:45 signpost: "INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER"
signpost: is all.
phf: signpost: you familiar with dark academia meme?
phf: signpost: it's an internet fashion, where one borrows from a kind of english turn of the century prep school aesthetic. you know dark panneled libraries, and gothic buildings, and understated prep clothing. books, and reading is obviously at the core of the aesthetic, but purely as a visual thing. you're not expected to actually read (even though you might claim you do)
phf: if you do a google image search for the term you'll get a pretty good idea for what it is
signpost: harry potter meets wes anderson meets etc.
phf: and a product of chan culture, "redpill me on byron bros, is he our guy?"
phf: so i think that http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109947 is basically that, it's not that there's any kind of thought behind it, it's literally just a kind of signaling "redpill me on distributed computation, what books should i add to my giant untouched pdf collection so that i'm into distributed computation?" etc.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 16:26:59 signpost: this was the thing that got me talking about gen-z kids, that it was effort to get them to disgorge the head-state that produced w/e verbal output.
signpost: I can see it. Heidegger had a mode of being labeled as "das Man", iirc approximately "the them", and discussed being "lost in das Man"
signpost: Nietzsche said the minds of the last men "blenchen", blink.
signpost: one wonders whether there's anyone home in these, or whether they do just mimic.
signpost: what makes one so sure the precursors to man were all killed off, you know?
signpost: and what requires that they all know they're there.
signpost isn't decided on whether it's unfixable.
signpost: certainly there were modes of being into which I was locked at some point, and later I'll say the same about loops I inhabit now.
verisimilitude: I don't speak or write without thinking beforehand, phf.
signpost now watching waves of conscious culture emerge from accidental constructive inteference, roll across the ocean, and recede in his imagination.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109930 << asciilifeform luvvd the hell outta that b00k, reread at least 3x
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 16:07:11 phf: kind of makes me want to reread name of the rose
shinohai: Same, 'tis one of the finest books I've ever read.
asciilifeform binged on author's other worx after , but was disappointed
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109964 << these look like normal human activities, lol. i suppose the lolcat doesn't tell us re it being a cargocult
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 16:52:15 phf: https://i.pinimg.com/550x/10/61/b8/1061b8ff7e95e1802f03fe3846cbabec.jpg :}
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109959 << there always remains a small chance that 'collector', in a fit of boredom, will actually start to read the collection
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 16:46:22 phf: so i think that http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109947 is basically that, it's not that there's any kind of thought behind it, it's literally just a kind of signaling "redpill me on distributed computation, what books should i add to my giant untouched pdf collection so that i'm into distributed computation?" etc.
asciilifeform: ( likely not so much larger than aboriginal's chance of baking a working plane but whoknows )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-09 17:49:06 asciilifeform: ( thing is, 'cargo cult' could even be interesting if the tribesmen somehow build ~working~ planes. but unsurprisingly neverhappens , not simply because 'haven't with-what' but because working in broken model entirely )
crtdaydreams: phf: I recently accquainted myself with the notion of eternal reccurence throught the parable of the demon; "What if I told you, you will live this life of yours as you have lived it an innumerable number of times."
signpost: roger penrose recently melted my pleb brain with the question of what happens when there's nothing left in the universe but photons.
signpost: there's a pretty terrible "interview" with him and jordan peterson somewhere, not really worth watching except for this.
phf: crtdaydreams: we possibly read the same blogs
phf: disregard last _two_ messages, it's supposed to be "blogs" even though logs immediately after which was in error might imply a correction. focus follow on terminal.app does a bad thing again..
signpost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_FUlo8BF9Y << this might be a better discussion of it.
crtdaydreams: I feel as if an underlying architecture presides beneath this weighty idea that's worth pursuing. I don't believe Neitzche explores that in 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' beyond a motif. The introduction also reccomends that I read other assorted works more or less chronologically before Zarathustra. Not quite sure whether I forge ahead with a premature reading of Zarathustra and
crtdaydreams: miss the important ideas, or peruse his other works beforehand.
signpost: would be mighty entertaining if physicists eventually agree with the ancients on cyclical universe.
crtdaydreams: signpost: unlikely a collective enlightenment just around the bend anytime soon
signpost: why do you think?
crtdaydreams: People from my generation have taken to what I refer to as "The Default Position"
crtdaydreams: any conversation, or meaningful thought is plugged with "it doesn't matter, the heat death of the universe will get us all in the end anyway, so nothings worth trying la la la la"
crtdaydreams: this may just be a small, poorly selected sample, but I do believe an undercurrent of futility poisons the minds of many in my generation
crtdaydreams: the interesting thing is, I somewhat agree with the purported meaningless of understanding
crtdaydreams: that is not to say the correct approach to living is some combination of nihlism and apathy
signpost: I'm entirely unsure what causes rapid state changes such as a messiah, "great awakening", or what.
signpost: so not sure how near or far one is.
crtdaydreams: perhaps it's directly a result of conscious, directed will
crtdaydreams: I don't think Jesus (prophet or god) could have brought such profound change to thought without some form of conscious exercise in said change
signpost: before that, I have to ask what a previous wtf means. what's "meaningless of understanding" and how do you... understand it?
crtdaydreams: signpost: wrong kind of meaningless, meaning as in philosophical meaning, "understanding is futile and meaningless etc"
crtdaydreams: I thought contextually it would make sense
signpost: I think that "etc" is doing a lot of work. do we mean that will precedes knowing, something like that?
crtdaydreams: perhaps, as in the parable of adam and eve
crtdaydreams: but that contorts our idea of knowing somewhat
signpost doesn't mean much more than my dick wants to fuck, and my belly wants to eat, and somewhere far further up the tower of chairs do I imagine goals, or the future.
crtdaydreams: maslows heirachy
signpost: anyway upstack, your view is your generation's full of suicidals then?
signpost: sorta stuck on this side of the fear of the act?
signpost: it's a strange thing; for someone to value anything they have to also value the lights being on to value it.
signpost: this gets easier to explain if the human hivemind is the thing, rather than individual nodes.
crtdaydreams: yes but no, I don't believe that it's representative of a global scale where there are different economic pressures on simply existing, and a large sociocultural discrepancy on ideas surroundind death and suicide, but from a strictly "western" standpoint. yes.
signpost: then sure, "I'm full of plastic and pesticide" is a great reason to wait to die and let others continue.
signpost: gonna go upstack and look at your "default position" thing.
signpost: that's strange; wouldn't the default position be to live?
crtdaydreams: well that's a more darwinian look at the same idea, but sure
crtdaydreams: well if you consider it's analogous to the western psychological operating system, it seems to be a default setting
signpost: it could be in some people, if usually there are others shouting you into groups, into action.
crtdaydreams: but I get what you're saying, perhaps default isn't the right word
signpost: maybe they haven't "taken" anything. they're there waiting for the wind to blow.
verisimilitude: Why not be bravely default?
crtdaydreams: are you suggesting that it's a natural resistance to the wind, even if oblivious to the axe man at the roots
verisimilitude: One can accept meaninglessness and still work in spite of it.
signpost: crtdaydreams: I'm saying you might have the agency in the wrong place, and what you see sitting inert is raw material.
crtdaydreams: the loggers come and gone
signpost: alongside this we were curious how the raw material starts moving, and I suspect it's that you have a combination of a highly exploitable psychology (which we damned well have) and a hierarchial and rapidly expanding effort to infect same.
crtdaydreams seems to have gotten lost in a masturbatory analogy
signpost rather liked the last cult he enjoyed. wouldn't mind another, if the gods permit.
crtdaydreams: so a change of tack towards a rather darwinian evolutionary hive mind
signpost: not proposing anything.
crtdaydreams is simply trying to understand where you're getting at
signpost: I'm saying I don't see that anyone has one of these running currently, so there the raw material sits farmed by the wreckage of the last one.
signpost: when one starts again, you wont be saying how obvious it is that everything is meaningless.
signpost: you'll be saying it's good that the shop owner suffers through the struggle session, or w/e the future may be.
crtdaydreams: it's lacking in a memetic sense, ideas (meaning) propagate over time through cultural artefacts, the "wreckage" if you like.
crtdaydreams: does that that would imply we've been in the wreckage since e.g. the death of Jesus
crtdaydreams: or whatever the last "great awakening" was
crtdaydreams: simply waiting for the next pyramidial power structure to sweep us up
verisimilitude: I find the thought to be silly.
verisimilitude: There has been plenty of wreckage before and after that.
signpost: I'm referring to the same category of recent derps that you are.
signpost: also I don't know what "in a memetic sense" is. talk to me like I'm an idiot.
crtdaydreams: the vistigial structures of past awakenings are persistent
signpost: give an idiot some examples of why you say that, why not
crtdaydreams: memes are said cultural artefacts. hell the entire bible could be considered a meme. memetic simply describes the process of exchange of memes. 200 years ago the process was mail a letter of corrospondence by horse and cart. now we have .jpeg and wire.
crtdaydreams: it's somewhat derived from cybernetics
signpost: yup, I know what a meme is.
signpost: to restate what I think you've said, you think your generation is experiencing a meme drought and is therefore wasting?
crtdaydreams: kek no, the old memes went stale and the cycle between memes is getting exponetially shorter
signpost: see how you kinda gloss over use of a metaphor, let its implied meaning sit. then I have to go "what's a stale meme?! what's the meme cycle!? why's it shortening" lol
verisimilitude: Have a fun fact: The word ``vestigial'' comes from the Latin VESTIGIVM meaning animal prints and the like.
crtdaydreams: let me reprhase
signpost: verisimilitude: footprints it looks like. til
verisimilitude: My book introduced the word with a wolf's paw print left in the ground.
verisimilitude: I hadn't made the connection until I saw the word in writing.
signpost: see this idea that the "old memes went stale" sounds like lazy bullshit emitted after the fact to excuse taking them at once for granted and dismissed.
crtdaydreams: no, rather the artefacts of past civilisations and revolutionary thought are no longer appealing, the time spent on digesting and compounding on ideas and generating new artefacts is decreasing over time in a cyclical fashion
signpost: I think this idea occurs to you because you're an implicit democrat, even if consciously claimed otherwise.
signpost: so you think it was a public opinion poll.
signpost: one sec, brb
signpost: anyway, this is proposed without any slight meant.
signpost: supposing a new meme came about that wasn't stale, what'd this look like?
asciilifeform envies on occasion signpost et al, with their metaphysical 3rd eye etc. asciilifeform moar or less 'deaf & blind' there, grew up with not the faintest detectable trace of religions (other than as caricatures)
crtdaydreams: signpost: it'd be the "great awakening" you're waiting for.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 19:25:45 verisimilitude: One can accept meaninglessness and still work in spite of it.
asciilifeform could argue that classica su had a kind of religion, but rather ad hoc , 'made outta matchsticks & acorns'
signpost: crtdaydreams: ever seen There Will Be Blood? the worm preacher in that is my usual picture of what a bible-thumper "great awakening" preacher might've been.
signpost not really awaiting anything; discussing the mechanics of getting humans to do things at scale.
crtdaydreams: signpost: I concur
signpost: asciilifeform: I can't speak on the SU with any authority, but it looks from afar to have had a utopian "towards-purpose" in there somewhere.
crtdaydreams: Haven't seen There Will Be Blood, probably won't either
crtdaydreams: gtg now, be well signpost
signpost: take care
signpost: asciilifeform: what interests me about this third-eye is the malleability of belief of those who will *even while being modified by it* claim they've always been that way, and nothing else could ever be.
signpost wishes to find satan's book on this someday, and read.
verisimilitude: Yeah, ingesting hallucinogens seems nice, but I'd rather not ``fry my brain''.
signpost: entirely unnecessary to do psychedelics, except if otherwise predisposed to clinging to a map/territory error.
signpost: and probably ought to be banned outside "the party"
signpost: e.g. greeks banned use of these outside specific context.
asciilifeform meanwhile pulled 'cat6a' for 1st time, and bit surprised by the heft
asciilifeform: ( for the innocent, resembles 'cat5' but with a coax-like shield )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1110082 << this is reported by many aficionados but asciilifeform cannot, sadly, comment, never had the slightest opportunity to test
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 20:11:01 signpost: asciilifeform: what interests me about this third-eye is the malleability of belief of those who will *even while being modified by it* claim they've always been that way, and nothing else could ever be.
asciilifeform suspects that he could, perhaps, with sufficient lsd, e.g. fuck the pythagorean theorem, but prolly wouldn't meet any gods or devils. afaik only helps you 'pull out rabbits who are already in your hat'
shinohai: If asciilifeform fucks the Pythagorean theorem I got dibs on the sex tape.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109953 << before this slips into the sands, imho 'dark academia' oughta be a partizan underground where 'parallel universe' of folx doin' actual research, writing illicit dissertations, earning seekrit diplomas, parallel publishing circuits, etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-30 16:31:16 phf: signpost: you familiar with dark academia meme?
asciilifeform: no reason wai the lamers oughta have that trademark.
phf: asciilifeform: i agree, it's too evocative of a term