adlai|text: ferfuxxake, my spleen was not built to handle these dumps
adlai|text wonders whether veris^I^I^I^I is finally jumping on the ship train metaphor chain before the hibernation ends abruptly.
verisimilitude: What?
punkman: I hadn't been to r/buttcoin for years, seems all they post now is "I'm so happy crypto is crashing"
punkman: "because that means I was right all along"
signpost: I mean, I'm also happy.
signpost: if they had a btc between them, I'd be glad to buy it.
punkman: was looking at exchanges with barely 500-1000 coins for sale
punkman: how times have changed
punkman: you really don't have to dump many coins to move price
verisimilitude: They should improve themselves; a true believer doesn't need observable reality to match his beliefs.
asciilifeform: punkman: considering that a gox only dispenses an actual btc if you manage to convince it to process withdrawal -- the displayed exch rate can be almost anyffin the perp wants it to be
asciilifeform: without moving any coin at all
asciilifeform: punkman: picture, scene in fuhrerbunker: 'mein fuhrer, 50% inflation and impossible to hide even from dumbest plebe anymoar, and they're buying btc' 'operation variant x-y! requisition luser deposits from goxes and dump, trigger margin calls'
verisimilitude: Switch up the metaphors already, asciilifeform; leave poor Hitler alone.
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: for some ( sadly unknowable ) interval -- is a mass givewaway of goxtards' coins . like at orig mtgox in 2014. however, after this interval, yer buying thin air
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-14 14:35:46 asciilifeform: for folx who believe they can infer , from public givens, when a pyramid is to fall -- there is ~inf dough
asciilifeform: ( imho statement 'folx who dun fractional-reserve dun have 'liquidity ooops' dun require elaborate explanation )
asciilifeform: there's a reason asciilifeform refers to ~all~ goxes as, well, goxes.
billymg: it saddens me deeply how many coins are tied up in goxes
billymg: constant repetition of "nor your keys, not your coins" for the last decade and still...
billymg: "whatever bro i trust coinbase more than myself. dude where are my keys. dude weed lmao"
verisimilitude: Yes, the issue with empowering technologies is usually that most people are stupid.
signpost: btc appears to be working just fine.
signpost: coin moves from weak hands to strong consistently.
signpost: scams accumulate btc and implode, and btc remains.
signpost: everyone says "this time is different" when the bubble's inflating, and when it pops, hilariously, the chorus of "different!" continues, if with sign flipped.
asciilifeform: in other noose. ( not imported billymg's log just yet, nor his reader.py patch; but still sumthing )
signpost hears "bitcoin is feudal, DO YOU HEAR ME" echoing in ears.
signpost: asciilifeform: ah cool, will send peering info this evening.
asciilifeform: signpost: imho rather opposite of 'feudal' ( fungible moneys displacing 'right of blood' is what buried the feudals )
asciilifeform: signpost: ty
signpost: looks to me like fractional scams blow up in btc faster than in any preceding system.
signpost: but it's early, who's to say.
asciilifeform: signpost: seems precisely same as errywhere else -- fractionalisms can persist ~indefinitely, with lamers happily trading paperola/goxcoin/leverageisms back'n'forth, until 'bank run'
signpost: I don't agree with your notion that every exchange is running a fractional reserve.
asciilifeform: signpost: impossible to know that 'every'
asciilifeform: but the folx with 'oops, we have a liquidity problem, plox to retry withdraw tomorrow!' etc -- certainly are
signpost: sure, and a huge batch of those die every halving cycle.
signpost: this is imho a mega-feature of btc.
asciilifeform not noticed any interesting macroscopic effect from halving cycles, to date
asciilifeform: somehow erryone seems to think there is one, but not noticed
asciilifeform: ( dun mean there aint -- but asciilifeform not noticed )
signpost: well, aside the bare claim that "can persist indefinitely" there are factually businesses that have collapsed each time the exchange rate peaked and corrected.
asciilifeform will take signpost's word for it, as not follows subj in realtime
signpost: if this one scars redditards into avoiding "send us your btc and we guarantee 20% yield" good.
signpost sees this as "fool and his money are soon parted" at record speed.
asciilifeform doubts that anyffin will ever perma-kill pyramid as concept -- they're simply irresistible to certain folx
signpost: I'm just enjoying the schadenfreude after a decade of "number go up". we agree that scam is timeless.
asciilifeform: ( neither 'mmm', nor 'pirate', etc 'scared into avoiding' n-th gen of idjits )
signpost bbl, gonna get that sunshine for a bit
asciilifeform: laters
adlai|text: fwiw, asciilifeform, I think your metaphorome is reasonable, especially and including and hinging upon the four-bit emotion state
adlai|text: all you need is vectored signatures, and automatic blockchaining of your emotion state at every tick of consciousness!
adlai|text: as for the lizard-hitler metaphors - motherland, privatised; so naturally, lizard-hitler's human ambassador is a fuhrer.
adlai|text hopes to return with less inane babble on the other side of the market crash.
verisimilitude: I mean, use Stalin or Mao eventually.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: stalin & mao have own places
asciilifeform: only to angloignoramus are the great kings of the past interchangeable
verisimilitude: That wasn't my point.
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-06-18#1107448 <<yeah, bitcoin works, it's the people who are broken
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-18 19:05:34 signpost: btc appears to be working just fine.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 19:59:07 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046402 << pretty sure we had at least one 'what does it mean to ask whether bitcoin still works?' thread, and not long ago
asciilifeform: ... the people, noshit, still broken, lol
verisimilitude: Still, that's the same excuse C language fanatics use, isn't it?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: same excuse also from morons who lost half their fingers in table saw, what of it
verisimilitude: It's just an observation.
asciilifeform: imho not particularly meaningful observation
verisimilitude: We've already discussed making better humans, recently.
asciilifeform: go, make, lol
verisimilitude: It's just that, say, Loper-OS embodies the opposite of this viewpoint, doesn't it?
verisimilitude: It embodies that a technology should be forgiving to mistakes, right?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: picture a bus w/ 4 brake and 4 gas pedals. 1 per wheel.
asciilifeform: reasonable to then suggest 'suppose bus had only 1 brake and 1 gas pedal'
verisimilitude: Sure.
asciilifeform: but not 'why should it have pedals at all, 1 time moron fughot which was which and went off cliff'
asciilifeform: see also. reasonable to ask 'why should erry stroke of the engine require a hand operation' but not reasonable to ask 'why should i have to fuel the engine'
verisimilitude: Some people ride the train. I know, I know, sometimes the train leads to Auschwitz, right?
asciilifeform: sometimes -- off cliff
asciilifeform: doesn't say much re the worth of trains per se
verisimilitude: In a world like this, a perfectly trustworthy machine is required, and I don't see even most Bitcoin holders being able to get one.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the interesting bit is that most not even attempt any such thing
asciilifeform: nor see the least bit of reason to even think about the question
verisimilitude: In that stupid little short story from earlier, with the daughter-killing, they had machines so trustworthy that people could believe them undoubtedly.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in re bitcoin in particular -- most of the time when you aint txing, worst thing a broken/sabotaged client can do to you is lie re fact of whether you've been paid
asciilifeform: ( protocol simple enuff that generally not esp hard to catch such a lie )
asciilifeform: 'main caliber' headache comes when you wanna tx
verisimilitude: I'd figure.
asciilifeform: fwiw machine civ inescapably contains 'machines they believe undoubtedly'. (e.g. ever ride an airplane?)
asciilifeform: sometimes the belief -- false, then -- splat.
asciilifeform: ( sometimes -- true, and the machine indeed far moar reliable than its driver or any human, and ~still~ splat , yer luck simply ran out )
asciilifeform: in washingtonistan they have a subway, built in early '70s, and the trains were from day1 controlled by comp. there were (ceremonial) human drivers on (some of) the trains. then in 2000s there was, iirc for 1st time, a wreck, and the drivers' union successfully demanded that the trains be driven manually.
asciilifeform: after this, coupla wrecks, moar than since '70s summed
verisimilitude: I suppose my point is the dream of that kind of society will always be but a dream. Unless man moves to other planets, there's always an escape hatch for when it be botched.
asciilifeform: well at this pt the tech level of '70s also 'dream'
verisimilitude: Bitcoin has no escape hatch, which I figure would make every interaction with it nervewracking.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what means here 'escape hatch' ?
asciilifeform: ( what was the 'escape hatch' from fiatola before '09 ? )
verisimilitude: In, say, a military setting, there's (usually) eventually the option of meeting in-person to fix communication issues, say.
asciilifeform: actually very often no such option
verisimilitude: I mean a society in which a man's identity is irreparably tied to private keys will certainly collapse into anarchy eventually.
asciilifeform: ( neither president, nor fieldmarshal, etc. is coming to erry godforsaken shithole to personally order nuke launched , nor would the crew do anyffin to such a claimant other than laugh at impostor and shoot if he persists )
asciilifeform: nuke command structure in erry serious country already worx exactly like bitcoin, in this respect
verisimilitude: That's not unreasonable.
asciilifeform: ( all the way to the detail that the rockets cannot be recalled once fired )
verisimilitude: I don't think everyone be encouraged to own a nuke.
asciilifeform: well nobody forced to, lol
asciilifeform: takes considerable effort. granted, much less effort to own a btc than a nuke. but at same time gotta actively work to do so
asciilifeform: there's a reason asciilifeform refs to privkeys as 'launch codes'
verisimilitude: Oh, well do it more often so I won't forget.
asciilifeform: it's the correct model from pre-'09 tech.
verisimilitude: This is the first time all year they've been called such.
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: there's not often occasion to discuss launch codes.
asciilifeform: (in fact, the less often discussed, generally the better for all involved)
asciilifeform: most folx in mechanical civilization have some experience with machine where 'sapper errs once'(tm), whether auto, firearm, airplane, etc
asciilifeform: there's nuffin exotic about the concept
verisimilitude: Still.
asciilifeform: 'erry country on the planet has the death penalty for stepping in front of a bus'(tm)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 20:18:37 asciilifeform: 'found keys, keep car'
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-17#1107351 << naggum will be timeless because he dead. i can entirely see how he would've become insufferable in the past few years, with the same kind of brain worms as the rest of his ilk.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-17 17:07:19 asciilifeform: 'Common Lisp is a big-city language. Spit out the hayseed, pronounce "shit" with one syllable and "shotgun" with two. You're not in Kansas, anymore. C is the language of the poor farmer village where the allocation of every seed and livestock matters, where taxes are low and public service non-existent. Appreciating the value of a large language is evidently hard for many people, just like many people find themselv
verisimilitude: So, it's never too early to die.
verisimilitude: He has different brain worms now, phf.
asciilifeform: phf: not erryone 'eventually insufferable' ( some folx know when to quit, or at least when to quit re subj 'that woudn't make it past the Mathic Walls' . take, say, knuth... )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-11 14:26:00 asciilifeform: oblig 1337 w4r3z
asciilifeform: not that death never helps ( e.g. napoleon's comment 'if only there'd been a cannonball for me in moscow' etc )
verisimilitude: Still, I'd rather stick around while everyone else gets on the comet.
asciilifeform: aint as if room on the comet will run out, lol
phf: asciilifeform: man was a strong believer in civilization, recognized, so to speak, his own responsibility to defend it in his own domain, yet was entirely blind to its unraveling outside of his domain
asciilifeform: phf: at various times dropped hints that not entirely blind. and, likely, was factor in his checking out.
asciilifeform: ( however, most of the time stuck to 1 subj, which these days rare )
phf: asciilifeform: he didn't otherwise held his punches or was coy with his opinions. could just be the case of "faith cracking" etc.
phf: this quote just has a very strong blue checkmark feel about it. a shallow and insulting metaphor that falls apart upon closer inspection, but betrays a kind of self-image that will stay blind to such an inspection
asciilifeform can see from what pov phf likely approached, but still thinks naggum's wasn't baseless
phf: i at some point learned that most lisp work was done by folk who grew up on a farm (in fact a recurring thing in early computing in general, in "what the dormouse said" the bostonites or new yorkers are so rare they are mentioned explicitly), for reasons obvious if you sit down and think about it for longer than a second
asciilifeform: supposing asciilifeform understands correctly who are 'blue checkmarks' -- doubts that naggum would've had much patience for'em; but hard to be certain
asciilifeform: phf: p.farnsworth, discoverer of raster scan, purpurtedly did so while plowing field w/ horse. and countless other folx who built 20th c. industry, did so '0-1 gen outta blacksmith shop'
asciilifeform: but, also note, 'outta', rather than 'in'
asciilifeform: is prolly the ideal character type to be, for these, sumbody who is able to actually value industry because experienced the dirt patch.
asciilifeform must bbl
phf: asciilifeform: you share that weird sex and the city perspective with naggum. the other possibility is that bugmen are recent invention, men came from all over, because there was more of "all over", built things, e.g. mccarthy's parents were working class, communist party members, traveled a lot during the great depression. in naggum metaphor obv ignorant drunken irish who beat their wives and program in java
phf: i know you read locklin, i'm to some extent simply channeling his distaste for bugmen thought, and that naggum quote stinks of such. my trumpt is of course that naggum got fucked by the tax men, and died of ulcer, he's got all kinds of lucid points on common lisp and programming, but i wouldn't take him for an authority on living
phf: taken as a poor metaphor it of course works, common lisp is an intellectually and culturally ("why car and cdr??1") demanding language, the way participation in a city life is more demanding. but the angle that the metaphor takes is equally often associated with distasteful behavior with no redeeming aspects (snooty city aristocracy of the past, bugmen of the present) as it is with what naggum is trying to associate it with (highbrow
phf: culture of vienna circle and such)
phf: if anybody's awake and reading with a pest station, can you please post a message to pest
asciilifeform: phf: posted
asciilifeform: or hm, toolate?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-18#1107569 << interesting pov; was thinking rather imaginary scene where 'illiterate peasant' taken to city mutter 'accountants? filthy idlers, never plowed a field' etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-18 19:04:54 phf: asciilifeform: you share that weird sex and the city perspective with naggum. the other possibility is that bugmen are recent invention, men came from all over, because there was more of "all over", built things, e.g. mccarthy's parents were working class, communist party members, traveled a lot during the great depression. in naggum metaphor obv ignorant drunken irish who beat their wives and program in java
asciilifeform: ( in re naggum's scenario )
bitbot: Logged on 2022-06-19 03:53:12 asciilifeform: or hm, toolate?
asciilifeform: np