asciilifeform: going briefly upstack, my understanding is that this particular batch of forkolade is effectively 'hard', in that no trb-generated tx is likely to be mined.
asciilifeform: ( the other prong of the front is the attempt to make trb difficult to use reliably by preventing effective quarantine of derp nodes and their tx)
asciilifeform: (summary: usg's most recent attempt to pound in the cock 'halfway', 'segwit', consists of prb churning out txen that result in 'anyone can spend' from trb pov, but miners are to 'agree never to process counter-softforkian tx', a la 'timelock' etc)
asciilifeform: trb absolutely gives no fuck if it cannot find the network.
asciilifeform: incidentally you can make this out of CURRENT trb simply by putting it on a box without a nic
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: how do you propose to 'check against multiple trb nodes' on an airgapped signing box ?
asciilifeform: and pretty much everyone who has attempted to fire a tx using trb prior to mod6's 'S' patch, now has a supply of such 'evil' coin with which to test this hypothesis, if he wants.
asciilifeform: trb wallet is every bit as broken as prb wallet in this respect
BingoBoingo: In other news TRB leads the way! "Alert" system in PRB being retired via... ALERTS!!! https://archive.is/5OoKT
asciilifeform: and the glomming of otherwise separate concerns is one of the things that makes reading trb a reliable headache.
asciilifeform: might be lulzy to cross-check with phuctor, ben_vulpes's trb nodes' banhammer lists, etc.
asciilifeform: https://stashnode.com << in other lulz, 'why build a trb node, buy a prb box from stranger today!'
asciilifeform: and, eh, 'v', or trb, or various other items contemplated here, fall much closer to the jet than to the tv set.
asciilifeform: mats: you oughta port trb to it!111
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-09#1554091 << you would have to begin by putting shiva back in... it isn't in the mainline trb (on account of questionable usefulness)
asciilifeform: possibly answer is, trb thinks i sent it to neverneverland ?
asciilifeform: the thing i do not understand is, how does the thing not fork? say i fire up a prbtron and prbsend to A. then fire up trbtron and send same coin to B.
asciilifeform: does it thereby follow that prb and trb have differing notions of how much coin is contained in A ?
asciilifeform: you could use trb-rotor almost as-is, if you went to this.
asciilifeform: otherwise one day you discover 'surprise', gcc6 or whatever won't build trb, or worse, builds-with-boojum
asciilifeform: for so long as you are still using traditional trb, you are stuck with some variant of this.
asciilifeform: and, incidentally, recall that we reground the trb genesis once.
asciilifeform: it made marginally more sense re the trb patch, but even there mircea_popescu insisted on the regrind.
asciilifeform: ( i could even see an argument that, e.g., rawtx eater doesn't belong in trb , and that tx ought to be injected via the ordinary tcp method. but i dun recall having this argument )
asciilifeform: there is fragging. which is why current trb runs indefinitely in a footprint of ~4GB.
asciilifeform: shinohai: trb memory pighoggery prevents the practical trbification of any of these. but it is ~impossible to fix without rewriting good chunk of it.
asciilifeform: shinohai: don't expect to do much trb on the g1 board that comes with the sage - it has soldered-down 1GB of ram
asciilifeform: the unparallelized-yet-wholly-parallelizable block verification is the biggest embarrassment in trb
asciilifeform: of trb?
asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu your new page's section IV oughta link to trb
asciilifeform: (and trb does in fact store orphaned blocks eternally)
asciilifeform: esp. if coupled with actual working wireshark + trb node.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if you read the code, you will notice that trb is, at most times of 'very very busy bee', quite unready to react to rpc command because one of the global locks is engaged.
asciilifeform: the trb method.
asciilifeform: which is why any item that is of interest here, ought to be picked up and nailed to the floor, as i nailed trb's deps.
asciilifeform: a specification can exist as a real object (which is very painful, consider the standard kilogram block, or trb) or an ideal object.
asciilifeform: and i have reason to suspect that mpb is catastrophically defective and fails to pass tx to trb (which, recall, is a reference, one does not get to say that it is broken in vs the unpublished mpb) under certain circumstances.
asciilifeform: half the time i do not even know if he is speaking of a trb -- or mpb! node.
asciilifeform: incidentally, i still have nfi what mircea_popescu's patchset is. understandably he can stay mum about it if he likes, but it makes his debugging reports ~useless from a trb pov.
asciilifeform: (trb is 100% static, i hope this is not news to anyone)
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Restart every few weeks to back up blockchain. Is not trb, but other on Openbsd with trb shit bolted onto sides
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if either of my trbtrons aren't answering, now or whenever, gimme a ping
asciilifeform: i even built trb for it.
asciilifeform: conventional in the 'trb as we now have it' sense.
asciilifeform: at one time i considered adding, e.g., rate limiter, to trb, but decided that it is not the Right Thing.
asciilifeform: in other noose, 70.33.211.11 (yes, 1 box) has been ddosing trb nodes, in particular zoolag.
asciilifeform: we burned it out of trb with hot irons, first thing, for a reason.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: not satisfied with the cookbooks on trb mailinglist ?
asciilifeform: they aren't flocking to trb, or mpex, etc.
asciilifeform: i've contemplated attempting an openwatcom build of trb.
asciilifeform: as happens many times every day on our trb nodes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'segwit' thing is, as i understand, intended as a protocol hardfork - to isolate trb users.
asciilifeform: there will (and perhaps already are) a multitude of chumpers who believe they have X btc, while really they have some quantity Q, possible 0, of actual btc, and X-Q of gavinola, which consists of tx, somehow elaborately processed, that trb rejects as noise, and display as wtf 'shot into the sun' crapolade in any civilized block viewer
asciilifeform: this piece was put in as attempt to disincentivize connection to trb nodes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand, PeterL was pointing out that trb does not relay the ingredients desired in this kitchen.
asciilifeform: phf: the 'grabs a broom and a bucket and cleans it' incidentally is more or less the story of my 1st year of trb.
asciilifeform: shinohai: even trb will run for no more than 2-3 weeks on 2G.
asciilifeform: jurov: aha, and those are the 5 people who have any business patching trb.
asciilifeform: as trb does.
asciilifeform: as trb does.
asciilifeform: mod6's trb-builder.
asciilifeform: and trb - its own. etc.
asciilifeform: e.g., mod6's vtron does not depend on trb in any way shape or form
asciilifeform: not only trb.
asciilifeform: it is still the authoritative history of trb.
asciilifeform: this would be a handy (optional) item to have in trb.
asciilifeform: he trb'd it.
asciilifeform: he solved it the trb way.
asciilifeform: sorta like we did with trb.
asciilifeform: iirc it was the db descriptors thing in trb.
asciilifeform: nor could ever, with trb.
asciilifeform: it is about miners spitting on a perfectly valid, per trb rules, tx
asciilifeform: ~0 hashrate behind 100%-everything-trb-will-happily-eat protocol breadth
asciilifeform: so long as trb node accepts a hypothetical block as valid, it is mineable.
asciilifeform: (if this, they will eventually be candidates for anal reeducation, just as we would have been sans trb)
asciilifeform: so... has an 'eth trb' yet appeared ?
asciilifeform: trbbot?
asciilifeform: box also hosts the only (afaik) 'five nines'-reliable trb node.
asciilifeform: not any dumber than mitming my trb node.
asciilifeform: the same sense the behaviour of my trb node's upstream makes.
asciilifeform: and in many cases, in particular the one now contemplated, is wholly unnecessary: fetching the trb deps is a once-per-machine thing
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-14#1502685 << what has mircea_popescu been smoking?? there is no qt in trb
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 http://thebitcoin.foundation/trusted-nodes.html << is missing dulap, the single most robust trb node i know of
asciilifeform: i'ma install it trb-style
asciilifeform: trb? trinque made one
asciilifeform: mod6: i was damn sure there was a draft cookbook but i slept through it, and it was not yet posted to trb www.
asciilifeform: soooo it appears that we do not have ~any~ recipe posted for building vtronic trb ?
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 the link in trb.foundation STILL POINTS TO BITCOIN-ASSETS WIKI
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-04#1497206 << my original recipe still worx and will always work. use a recent trb tho.
asciilifeform: we dun even have 3 reliable trb nodez.
asciilifeform: anything other than unconditional capitulation to trb, == prb.
asciilifeform: i disagree that the enemy ought to have any say in how trb works.
asciilifeform: and pieces of shit, e.g., https://wiki.openwrt.org/_media/media/tplink/tl-mr3020/tl-mr3020_top-pcb-gpio-pins.jpg?w=400&tok=e00072 << as i once experimented with for trbification << have dram.
asciilifeform: trinque: it was how we genesis'd trb, recall.
asciilifeform: i am NOT and will NOT be willing to sign off on, e.g., tinyscheme, or even trb, with same level of assurance as for code that i and i alone had written.
asciilifeform: 1) trb-genesis
asciilifeform: as would be the case in a mircea_popescuated shiva trb.
asciilifeform: trb-genesis, and shiva-genesis.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-13#1481822 << mircea_popescu made a very convincing argument in favour of ~not~ having a central repo of any kind, but rather - if anything - a streamlined mechanism for each lord (including mod6 & ben_vulpes under the banner of trb foundation) to put ~his own trb~ in usable format on ~his own~ www
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 if i want trb i don't need to ask for '/trb/whateverthefuck-fixes-retardation.vpatch', asking for whateverthefuck-fixes-retardation.vpatch must suffice !
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 'It has been well established that OOM error occurs from bastards not being freed from memory.' << not accurate. bastard tx don't enter the mempool in trb. it is mempool tx that never deallocate...
asciilifeform: do you recall my attempt at forcing trb to flush its mempool?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-04#1476897 << mod6 i was talking about the stator.sh in the tarball distributed on therealbitcoin.org. but more generally speaking we should NOT be linking to openssl.org or other heathens! the tarballs are not so big, they ought to be on trb site.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 the openssl people hosed your stator script by moving their turdball without a redirect. can we plz stop linking to derps in trb autoloaders ?
asciilifeform: the memory leak will still have to be killed though, before these can trb.
asciilifeform: or whether the trb on the box is worth using any moar
asciilifeform: phuctor, trb
asciilifeform: farewell 136+ day trb uptime
asciilifeform: it was the trb source callgraph
asciilifeform: i've wondered often who precisely they paid, and how much, to set up even a basic 'first 6mo of trb'-level framework for them of understanding how the shitsoup even worx
asciilifeform: i'd be curious, though, to meet a usg fauxtoshi who is willing to endure 5 minutes of my questions re trb src.
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2013/the-future-in-the-past << great vintage mircea_popescutronic lul re trb...
asciilifeform: trb on dulap up for 127 d, 17h, 30m, contiguous; current footprint == ~8G.
asciilifeform: dulap (nosuchlabs.com, but recall we have no dns, it is 46.166.165.30 for trb purposes)
asciilifeform: (in practice, trb node on a decent box like dulap can run for a very long time - years - without reset)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-16#1467378 << i must point out that, at least on same nazi site, the count of trb nodez is also record low - 5
asciilifeform: what can i do, even my trb hasn't restarted since december
asciilifeform: my vtron was very much a battlefield wunderwaffen, adequate strictly for pressing a well-gardened trb tree that consisted 95% of asciilifeform
asciilifeform: e.g. trb and dns.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell jurov observed any spike in trb site traffic ? (it is linked from nosuchlabs.com)
asciilifeform: but this includes, e.g., trb.
asciilifeform: recall it is also trb.
asciilifeform: where, i suspect, the only folks able to connect to the trb node on same box are also us.
asciilifeform: (does anyone still recall how trb was originally something i asked nubs to make!)
asciilifeform: after departure of nubs, who will print trb!1?111
asciilifeform: unrelatedly, trb has been up for 100+ consecutive dayz there.
asciilifeform: trinque: same place as the lag on my trb nodez
asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> including five straight months of 1/4 gb ram box at close to a btc/month pulling our dicks. << that thing incidentally has been the ONLY public trb node that has never fallen down. not once.
asciilifeform: and yes, i ported trb to arm. as wartime wunderwaffen (which went nowhere.)
asciilifeform: (or from trb at any rate, iirc mod6 had this in his original diagrammator)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trb's www
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu i had a notion: if we're no longer holding the 'father's pistols' line, is there any good reason not to replace openssl in trb with, e.g., ada bignum ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes, mod6, et al : did jurov stop working as trb treasurer , coinbr operator ? i must have missed this ? 'cause i dun see him in the mircea_popescutronic list
asciilifeform: next we calculate how many sheets of toiler paper trb fits on, etc.
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, the immunocompromise thing was accurate, already folks who oughta know better, on old planet, asked me if i'd host a powerranger idiot repo 'for trb'
asciilifeform: there are reasons why my first act re trb was to exterminate all compatibility with microshit
asciilifeform: and this is a patch without which trb is ~dead in the water~
asciilifeform: it was EMINENTLY possible to build trb pre-v.
asciilifeform: (rotor invokes boost's jam thing but trb, recall, builds with ordinary gnumake)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-03-2016#1436543 << there is no provision for anything of the kind in trb, beyond the barbaric expedient of a tx which throws exception during processing simply not being stored
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: nope, the only genuine solution would be multithreaded trb
asciilifeform: in related nyooz, i discovered that one of my test trb boxen has been wedged, without any meaningful log noise whatsoever, for ~2wks
asciilifeform: and contemplating trbtronics, rather than praying to vishnu ?
asciilifeform: which is what we have in trb
asciilifeform: wallet (incl. trb) ~much~ dislikes doublespends
asciilifeform: keccak-clean and keccak-trbchain.
asciilifeform: or introduction of material from either into a future trb
asciilifeform: i will maintain trb, while 1,001 things incl. writing mine.
asciilifeform: if trb gets chainclobbered - it is 2009 again for us.
asciilifeform: and where did trb go ?
asciilifeform: jurov: it is for working on trb !
asciilifeform: i was willing to deal with the cpp miseryu of trb because 1) it pre-dates bitcoin being valuable 2) it was - and remains - the schelling point, 'father's pistols'
asciilifeform: so i go and send on another box and guess what, it had previous trb, and tx is high-s.
asciilifeform: that trb chokes on, during rescan, and quits.
asciilifeform: the ~only thing i know about mpb is that 1) it is roughly compatible with 0.6 and 2) he fixed the db locks bug years ago, and shared with me the patch, a while back, and it is in trb
asciilifeform: and certainly not trbtronic ones.
asciilifeform: if your client barfs when working with trb, patch your client.
asciilifeform: dooglus: when trb disagrees with prb, prb is ipso facto wrong.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-03-2016#1424721 << this is not actually correct, it should build only gcc and toolchain, then trb.
asciilifeform: except that i have nfi what we're doing with trb.
BingoBoingo: mod6: Well, work on a trb with a new genesis block could be an interesting skeleton for altcoin. It opens the door to flensing far deeper.
BingoBoingo: I mean the vacation that lets you afford other vacations. You know the one where you sit in a cabin to make trb fork. Not full adacoin, but the possibility of adacoin.
asciilifeform: so trb foundation closes today?
asciilifeform: jurov: works great in practice. in your trb node.
asciilifeform: could far more easily declare, as trb does, 'tx is only valid if inputs are confirmed in existing block.'
asciilifeform: sturles: it is pointedly NOT 'how it is' in trb.
asciilifeform: trb does not deal in mights.
asciilifeform: sturles: trb WON'T ACCEPT a tx with even ONE unconfirmed input.
asciilifeform: run moar trb.
asciilifeform: i have 3-4 trb nodez going, just on house lan, at all times, so backup sorta solves itself.
asciilifeform: shinohai: i think it is interesting that i've been kill -9 'ing trb since day 1 and never had this problem.
asciilifeform: jurov: and to the extent i blow my very little free time on trbism, they are.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trb didn't even get off the runway until magic constants, recall.
asciilifeform: i distinctly recall that trb sailed through the july incident while mpb did not.
asciilifeform: not related to dulap except in the fact that both are trb nodes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dulap is not only platform for phuctor, but will host 'g', gossip, etc., and is presently the largest and most reliable trb battleship. and i will pay for it personally, because wtf.
BingoBoingo: Dropped in low-s a month or two (mebbe 3) before trb, has -minrelaytx flag, from trb orphanage slaughters and malleus were definitely implemented. Other things but would take reading to recall them.
BingoBoingo: I have a partially trb-icized 7 series in the name of implementation pluralism. No earthly idea what all changes happened.
asciilifeform: i don't recall a ~rotor~ trb working there.
asciilifeform: anyone ever build a working trb on openbsd ?
asciilifeform: i'm beginning to understand why the enemy is not particularly scared of trb.
BingoBoingo: Maybe point him at TRB documentation after he's done fixing Eulora?
asciilifeform: 1) press a trb
asciilifeform: mod6, ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu, et al : possibly a neglected subject in the wiki, trb site, etc. is where the hell a n00b is supposed to get pubkeys.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ftr, about 1/2 of a stripped trb binary is openssl crud that is never called.
asciilifeform: all i can say is that i have nfi. but i have no evidence that anyone other than mircea_popescu and trb folks did any serious re-engineering re: the client.
asciilifeform: so far the only 'alt-trb' for which i have any evidence whatsoever of its existence is mircea_popescu's thing
asciilifeform: trinque: however you try to dance around the problem, must come to terms with the fact that ~some~ trb nodes must talk to the heathens ~some~ of the time, or NO BLOCKS
asciilifeform: 'A fully virtualized “Hello World” service in IncludeOS (which of course includes the necessary components of the OS) uses only 8.45MB of memory. A Ubuntu 14.04 OS image (the default guest OS for OpenStack) is around 300MB by comparison.' << idiocy. i had linux kernel AND trb in < 5 MB.
asciilifeform: phf: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412300 << as stated in the comments, i regard this as a serious loose end that must be tied before anyone can even contemplate using a shivatronic trb in the battlefield
asciilifeform: (for n00bs or readers who have not been keeping up, 'shiva' is a highly experimental affair and not to be considered part of mainline trb!)
asciilifeform: 1) to have the cpp content of trb asymptotically go to ZERO with time
asciilifeform: is that by 'marshalling' the pointers, you are introducing trb's leakages into tinyscheme.
asciilifeform: shiva.cpp as i originally wrote it, includes all of the trb headers. you can form scheme data structures handily without engaging in weird cppisms, just by iterating over, e.g., the node list, and forming scheme list while you do it.
asciilifeform: aha recall this from early trb days ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is a defensible perspective but it leaves me wondering wtf you were doing when founded a trb foundation ! a throne omg!!1111111
asciilifeform: on the other hand, a bunch of folks here are trying to trb
asciilifeform: ~6G occupied by trb on dulap after 40 days. nb.
asciilifeform: in other news, blocks that take my trb nodez 5-10 min. to verify have become sop.
asciilifeform: it is one thing if it is a heathen dep that pre-existed trb, e.g., boost
asciilifeform: (the folks who laughed when i said 'no curl on trb build box' - still laughing ?)
asciilifeform: part1 is the bridge. part2 is the only place where trb per se is touched, where the hooks are inserted.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-02-2016#1408030 << it had own genesis to establish pedigree with the historic tinyscheme. but shiva is a patch that bridges it into the trb tree. and yes i rebased it, it works with the current trb.
asciilifeform: a blackholed trb does not fall silent, but actually is maintaining links with a number of existing peers (bouncing inv's, etc)
asciilifeform: Stec: you need gcc on any reasonable unix. that's all. trb will build a new compiler, and with it will build itself.
asciilifeform: Stec: let us know if you have any problem building trb.
asciilifeform: fella says he wants to try trb.
asciilifeform: Stec: рекомендую познакомиться с исходиками trb, не пожалеешь
asciilifeform: incidentally i see no reason why any trb node ought to allow a tx (mempool, vs in-block) to consume more cpu time than it took to receive from the nic.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: every time trb is mentioned on reddit, i see this crud re: 'important fixes.'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the blackout re: trb is more or less total, don't expect miracles
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i would add in your article that the flagship trb boxes are running sans-glibc.
asciilifeform: does pywallet actually work with trb ?
asciilifeform: which ~trb~ mircea_popescu ?
asciilifeform: not trb
asciilifeform: and yeah there is no question of running trb on this.
asciilifeform: you can't trb-develop on the x60.
asciilifeform: on an isolated lan, place trb nodes, and break all known blocks into tx,
asciilifeform: this might be a productive approach for trb
asciilifeform: one tricky bit is that trb is a ~system~
asciilifeform: trb is alive, v is a knife.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400190 << trivial - if trb marks a tx nonstandard - it is nonstandard!11
asciilifeform: where, say, 0 is maximally permissive (disables malleus, even) and 10 is 'any sign of deviation from trb conventions --> permaban'
asciilifeform: this would walk the razor's edge of danger, in re splitting trb into own parallel universe, however
asciilifeform: 5x19x141x248.static-customer.iz.ertelecom.ru << in mircea_popescu's trb fleet ?
asciilifeform: tinyscheme genesis is NOT PART OF TRB !!1111111111111
asciilifeform: it is my intention to do this to trb.
asciilifeform: but in all seriousness, a battlefield trb oughta be built on a virginal airgapped box.
asciilifeform: (and if it takes 100 hours to build motherfucking trb, it is NOT a workstation!)
BingoBoingo: ascii_butugychag: I guess I got to now. Shiva represents first serious mega-weaponized divergence of trb from prb
asciilifeform: for trb?!
asciilifeform: so now i gotta write an elisp for trb
asciilifeform: as for prb, it doesn't like talking to trb (esp. with the malleus patch)
asciilifeform: char *p = sc->strbuff;
asciilifeform: anything you say in 'private' about trb will generally end up having to be repeated at least once.
asciilifeform: so you can meaningfully probe the living trb
asciilifeform: polarbeard: based on trb.
asciilifeform: in trb.
asciilifeform: tinyscheme welded onto trb
asciilifeform: it is bad enough that trb has 500 man-year of study baked into it. let's now add a 501st ?
asciilifeform: polarbeard: in case you did not know, you can browse the almost-current trb using www browser, http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source?v=asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected
asciilifeform: polarbeard: how did you come upon your interest in trb ?
asciilifeform: trb has papercut on one arm, gangrene in the other.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2016/01/21/an-historical-timeline-of-the-real-bitcoin-trb-development-part-ii/#comment-39387
asciilifeform: boost is used in trb for iterators, for the most part
asciilifeform: incidentally not so long ago i felt the desire to rewrite chunks of trb to abolish boost