Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2016-02-02 | 2016-02-04 →
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anything in there ?
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> 'world is small' << for any definition of "world" that excludes most idiots.
mircea_popescu: <funkenstein_> a backport patch of privkey import/export should you be so inclined to look: << hey check that out! nice.
mircea_popescu: ima have to digest this.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1900 @ 0.00057044 = 1.0838 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski: ^a test. you might see me logging in as 'pete_d_out' in the next week or so. if you do, please to +v!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11019 @ 0.00056134 = 6.1854 BTC [-] {4}
mircea_popescu: trinque this sounds like a bug in either the signing process or the btcd.
mircea_popescu: how does the signed txn look ?
danielpbarron: what is that toomim or something?
pete_dushenski: i was thinking "burned out movie star"
danielpbarron doesn't know what he looks like but can only assume..
mircea_popescu: it is a bitcoin expert / gavin economist / miner leader and otherwise important reddit person.
pete_dushenski: luke-jr ?
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 19:41:01; jurov: princessnell: you have here 15675 s.qntr shares, want to do anything with them?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6700 @ 0.0005697 = 3.817 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 18:01:26; danielpbarron: << I met the guy at both PaulFest and PorcFest (pictured )
danielpbarron: I chatted him up too; he was a bit too socialist for my liking
pete_dushenski: the 'einstein' expression mighta given that away
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16450 @ 0.00057043 = 9.3836 BTC [+] {2}
danielpbarron: >> We did it! 20,000 SIGNERS! @NHLibertyForum is gonna ROCK! Esp w/ Edward @Snowden speaking! << so it finally happened. Let's see how many actually move.
assbot: Liberty Forum ... ( )
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron wassat ?
danielpbarron: the idea was to nag as many people as possible into at least ~saying~ that they'd move to New Hampsire if 19.999k others said the same
danielpbarron: and that once they all got there, they could finally change the government for good or something
danielpbarron: thing started a decade ago at least, so it's been a long time coming
mircea_popescu: oh that, right.
BingoBoingo: 20,000 people is enough for three rifle brigades and a support component
mircea_popescu: 20k isn't really enough to move nh tho is it ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo no, more than half of these are women.
mircea_popescu: it's just enough for half a concentration camp, really.
danielpbarron: a good percent of the 20k are probably dead by now
BingoBoingo: Crushing my dreams with you having come from a country with history.
danielpbarron: happy to say I didn't cave in to their very persistent nagging when i was at porcfest, so I will not have to reneg on this moving nonsense
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28400 @ 0.00055972 = 15.896 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: Black Book on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
gribble: Time since last block: 21 minutes and 23 seconds
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3650 @ 0.00055937 = 2.0417 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.00056868 = 6.881 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15665 @ 0.00055933 = 8.7619 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20700 @ 0.00056463 = 11.6878 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14150 @ 0.00057045 = 8.0719 BTC [+]
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 7.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump gets Republican Nomination -
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6825 @ 0.0005596 = 3.8193 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3800 @ 0.00056302 = 2.1395 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2150 @ 0.00056545 = 1.2157 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6300 @ 0.00055933 = 3.5238 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6548 @ 0.00056102 = 3.6736 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 00:15:59; mircea_popescu: actually polarbeard if you're looking for more backportage stuff to do ... rawtx thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12150 @ 0.00056678 = 6.8864 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19500 @ 0.00057045 = 11.1238 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21663 @ 0.00057045 = 12.3577 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10121 @ 0.00057045 = 5.7735 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13600 @ 0.00057045 = 7.7581 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5373 @ 0.00056542 = 3.038 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.00056917 = 6.3747 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13250 @ 0.00057044 = 7.5583 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44300 @ 0.00057045 = 25.2709 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14350 @ 0.00056888 = 8.1634 BTC [-]
jurov: ;;tmsr
gribble: Error: "tmsr" is not a valid command.
asciilifeform: << in mircea_popescu's trb fleet ?
asciilifeform: in other news, zoolag was blackholed for a record-breaking 8 hours.
asciilifeform: the situation with 'all connections are equal' MUST DIE.
asciilifeform: it is idiocy, plain and simple.
asciilifeform: 'hobo in the alley has same right to impregnate wife as master of the house' or how did mircea_popescu put it.
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 18.41463281 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump gets Republican Nomination -
asciilifeform: of the things that most must die, it is this, verily.
copypaste: woah
copypaste: 18BTC on no
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3500 @ 0.00056888 = 1.9911 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: <polarbeard> << will work on this << cool. hey funkenstein_ if you're going to rebase your patch to current tree i'm going to consider it also. hurry up tho lol.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 00:15:59; mircea_popescu: actually polarbeard if you're looking for more backportage stuff to do ... rawtx thing.
mircea_popescu: copypaste> 18BTC on no << his fortunes markedly changed past coupla weeks it seems.
copypaste: he lost one caucus narrowly
copypaste: caucuses are not all or nothing
copypaste: he's only one seat behind after the first state
copypaste: i think he's doing quite well, i wouldn't be sure enough to put 18BTC on it that's for sure
PeterL: so maybe he wins new hampshire next week, then we will see a bunch of yes bets?
mircea_popescu: darn that bet comment section is something else.
mircea_popescu: PeterL likely.
mircea_popescu: copypaste i think the perception (at least my perception at any rate) is that he's a momentum player. all he has on his side is the image of winning, no further substance.
mircea_popescu: for which reason, not-winning is a kiss of death for him.
copypaste: ah, i see what you mean
mircea_popescu: the way it wouldn't be for obama. he was, throughout, a loser. losing doesn't affect losers as it affects winners.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21657 @ 0.00056933 = 12.33 BTC [+]
copypaste: anyway, i have .2 on yes. his sureness will only enrich me >:)
copypaste: (if i'm right)
mircea_popescu: anyway, the best thing hilary could do for the cause of lulz if she won would be\
mircea_popescu: to take trump as vp
PeterL: looks like there is no bet for cruz to get nomination?
mircea_popescu: well if there isn't make it .
copypaste: make it so i can vote on no
PeterL: and speaking of presidential politics: rand paul just announced todayhe is dropping out of the race
PeterL: so does the rand paul bet get settled as "no" now, or does it have to wait until the republican convention in the summer?
mircea_popescu: prolly gets settled.
mircea_popescu: say something there at any rate.
PeterL: commented on the bet page.
PeterL: I wonder if the other candidates who got lower votes in Iowa than Rand will drop out too?
mircea_popescu: i wonder if rand will spend the next 50 years with a tiny rabid fanbase and a few %s each election.
mircea_popescu: and as a side wonder, i wonder how many people even knew iowa was a state.
PeterL: it in the animaniacs sond of all the state names, so therefore we all know it, right?
PeterL: *song
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3500 @ 0.00056933 = 1.9927 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: lol so the redditard/tardstalk/whatever idiot parade settled on "we know better than mp because random derp said we do" ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46900 @ 0.00057043 = 26.7532 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2000 @ 0.00056888 = 1.1378 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00056844 = 8.5834 BTC [-] {2}
thestringpuller: !up ascii_butugychag
assbot: Bitcoin Transaction Fees in USD ... ( )
mircea_popescu: up to 1-200k a day it can keep going. that's finally a relevant metric worth considering.
assbot: GitHub - polarbeard/trb: The Real Bitcoin™ ... ( )
polarbeard: actually git comes handy to manage trb patch-sets
mircea_popescu: punkman i dunno how much i credit this accounting approach.
mircea_popescu: sort of like counting the fucks over your life. odds are the most times you fucked the women you liked least. it's how it works for most people.
mircea_popescu: einstein comes up with "god doesn't roll dice", switzerland gets +1, newton comes up with calculus "great britain" gets +1 ?
mircea_popescu: science has no country. the pretense to the contrary is not unlike some derps sitting on reddit going "people whose names start with m are more great than people whose names start with i because mp > indiancandy so THERE!11"
mircea_popescu: review the letters, the reason calculus was invented as well as documented has everything to do with newton being part of the b-a of his time, going under the name "lion's claw" and ~0 to do with the happenstance that some derp battling hygiene wore a hunk of metal now and again for a hat.
mircea_popescu: polarbeard lol that should be lulzy.
polarbeard: next step is to get svn involved somehow
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11600 @ 0.00056717 = 6.5792 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17506 @ 0.0005651 = 9.8926 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: about sendtawtx I've found this material:
assbot: dpaste: 1P62G6W ... ( )
ascii_butugychag: << at least 2 people did this, for some reason, before
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:21:04; polarbeard: incest:
ascii_butugychag: ( ben_vulpes ? )
ascii_butugychag: i really don't see the appeal, esp. now that phf has the colourized viewer thing
ascii_butugychag: (which ~really~ needs to be come the canonical patch swallower and lxr replacement )
ascii_butugychag: srsly lxr is lame
polarbeard: ascii_butugychag: I pushed just 4 fun, I actually just need git to manage my branch with the fancy logs
polarbeard: I tried plain fs but too much cd'ing around and got confused
ascii_butugychag: << when americans stuff ballot box, they like to set it up as 'dark horse candidate'
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 14:12:43; PeterL: looks like there is no bet for cruz to get nomination?
assbot: 151 results for 'lxr' :
assbot: Satoshi asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected/ ... ( )
ascii_butugychag: right now i'm stuck with it
polarbeard: oh, ouch, eyes hurt
ascii_butugychag: i refuse to read the code in anything where i can't click an identifier and get concordance
ascii_butugychag: (yes, this includes paper book, which HAD FUCKING BETTER have concordance indices in all margins on every page)
ascii_butugychag: i do NOT have the time, energy, or inclindation to fucking HUNT for 'where is this defined'
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: you are so demanding!
thestringpuller: isn't that what IDE is for?
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: recall that the whole project appeared largely on account of my unreasonable demands
thestringpuller: I understand you are high maintenance ascii_butugychag it's okay, that's why we <3 you.
ascii_butugychag: << science ~does~ 'have a country~ in the sense that newton was not and could not have been from zimbabwe.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:25:23; mircea_popescu: review the letters, the reason calculus was invented as well as documented has everything to do with newton being part of the b-a of his time, going under the name "lion's claw" and ~0 to do with the happenstance that some derp battling hygiene wore a hunk of metal now and again for a hat.
ascii_butugychag: (or rather, the pisshole that then existed there)
assbot: Satoshi asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected identifier search: uint64 ... ( )
assbot: Satoshi asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected/src/serialize.h ... ( )
ascii_butugychag: aha but this all needs to be in 1 place
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: I read newton's calculus wasn't actually released. it was lebiniz who published it.
ascii_butugychag: and be vtronic.
mircea_popescu: yaya. but lxr is still pretty good, and a good basis for vtronic same-thing
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: it is partly why we use l's notation
mircea_popescu: << give me teenaged zimbabwe girl of my choice, i'll einstein her.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:46:27; ascii_butugychag: (or rather, the pisshole that then existed there)
mircea_popescu: the country really has NOTHING to do with it.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: actually lxr is ~profoundly~ retarded in that i can't link to line numbers
mircea_popescu: i just linked to line numbers above
mircea_popescu: #0023 part.
ascii_butugychag: nm i was thinking of the earlier thing
mircea_popescu: you gotta simmer down with the readily set wrath bit!
ascii_butugychag: that we junked
ascii_butugychag: anyway, a thing that gives vtronic lxr that also would eat patches and let you walk the vtree, would be ~the~ answer.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20653 @ 0.00057045 = 11.7815 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: splendor of splendors. and if we can somehow merge the eating so both the current model and an error-passing irc bot based method exist...
mircea_popescu: jurov really can't be expected to baby people sending stuff WRONGLY for the rest of his days.
mircea_popescu: gotta make a bot, that'll say "hey dummy... you only put the sig in!"
ascii_butugychag: he's prolly almost as tired of reading'em as i am of sending
thestringpuller: jurov-bot will do babysitting in future
polarbeard: jubot
mircea_popescu: last time i did it it went flawlessly. the time before that, i took three tries because i fucked up twice.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: have you carried out experiments re: blackholes nodes ?
mircea_popescu: thoroughly pebkac issues fwis.
mircea_popescu: oddly enough i don't get blackholed nearly as often as you do o.O
ascii_butugychag: i can say at this point that it is not a network issue as such
ascii_butugychag: restart - always cures
mircea_popescu: i dunno what it is, i've never seen it before trb myself, nor a really good one since.
mircea_popescu: 8 hrs ? srsly ?
ascii_butugychag: blackhole results when the worker thread (the one that handles nearly everything) is wedged
ascii_butugychag: while the network thread continues to accept connections
ascii_butugychag: 8hrs until i reset it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8604 @ 0.00056058 = 4.8232 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: there have been a lot of DoS bugs since 0.5.3
punkman: and probably not mentioned in changelogs either
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4896 @ 0.00055995 = 2.7415 BTC [-]
ascii_butugychag: what i do know is that -connect nodes within my walls do not ever blackhole.
mircea_popescu: obviously. why not be useless to the bitter end. power rangering ftw!
ascii_butugychag: nor does idem, running on SAME BOX as zoolag in parallel with it and -connected to it and the other trbs.
ascii_butugychag: (yes i have two blockchains, different users, etc on it)
ascii_butugychag: one of the reasons i wrote shiva,
ascii_butugychag: is so that we can get to a place where there is NEVER a situation of 'i wonder wtf the node is doing'
thestringpuller: the power rangers seem to be able to line up gullible investors better than zuckerberg and that napster guy...justin timberlake was it?
mircea_popescu: eh get out.
ascii_butugychag: does nobody but me actually watch their trb logs ?
ascii_butugychag: these things spend a good chunk of their time not node-in !1111
thestringpuller: i thought tail -f debug.log was the only way to see what was actually going on
ascii_butugychag: and then you people wonder why your tx is stuck on mars without a return ticket
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: it doesn't tell you worth shit re: a stuck node.
thestringpuller: i haven't experienced that problem yet.
ascii_butugychag: do you have the log scrolling 24/7 ?
ascii_butugychag: chances are you simply aren't looking.
ascii_butugychag: if you haven't see it.
thestringpuller: yea. but I don't ~look~ at the log 24/7
ascii_butugychag: plot block receipt times.
ascii_butugychag: you're in for a surprise.
ascii_butugychag: (write it in shiva!)
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag> chances are you simply aren't looking. << grep exists you know.
ascii_butugychag: or grep, sure
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag says "LISP is you friend" so I'll give it a try.
thestringpuller: Reminds me of when gf is like "eat these vegetables they won't kill you"
mircea_popescu: also, the timing as presented by the node is not terribly reliable.
mircea_popescu: minutewise it works, but otherwise... meh
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: sorta why i'd rather plot externally than grep
ascii_butugychag: the logs suck arse
ascii_butugychag: but thing is, i specifically am interested in what the thing is doing when it is ~unable to produce log~
ascii_butugychag: (or do any other useful work)
ascii_butugychag: incidentally, i found that a blackholed node won't respond to rpc
polarbeard: you can backport zmq B)
thestringpuller: oh wait. that has happened to me.
ascii_butugychag: (it is in the global idiot lock)
mircea_popescu: polarbeard do you lisp/scheme incidentally ?
thestringpuller: where node stops responding, last time though it brought the whole machine down tho.
polarbeard: I used to
thestringpuller: !up ascii_butugychag
phf: can probably add something like lxr, but i need a better idea of how they do c++ parsing/indexing
PeterL: ascii_butugychag> << when americans stuff ballot box, they like to set it up as 'dark horse candidate' << I wouldn't call Cruz a dark horse, there are just so many candidates he must have been overlooked, we didn't get bets for huckabee, santorum, fiorina, christie, etc, either
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 14:12:43; PeterL: looks like there is no bet for cruz to get nomination?
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:03:09; ascii_butugychag: do you have the log scrolling 24/7 ?
shinohai: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: soo i had an idea
ascii_butugychag: how to determine, without major surgery, what a wedged node is doing
assbot: Dumping gcov data at runtime - simple example : OSADL - Open Source Automation Development Lab eG ... ( )
ascii_butugychag: this is sorta like what i did with massif
ascii_butugychag: !s massif
assbot: 11 results for 'massif' :
ascii_butugychag: somebody try this ?
ascii_butugychag: it needs to be on auto-trigger
ascii_butugychag: external proggy watches log
ascii_butugychag: if no block for... 1hr+ ?
ascii_butugychag: then fire.
ascii_butugychag: but not until then!
ascii_butugychag: i strongly suspect that we will uncover a deadlock.
polarbeard: I'll definitely have to checkout gcov itself first
ascii_butugychag: polarbeard: comes with gcc
ascii_butugychag: you already have it.
assbot: 23 results for 'gcov' :
polarbeard: yep, but I didn't know such thing existed
polarbeard: will play with it, definitively
thestringpuller: debuggin threads is the most painful thing to debug.
jurov: lxr may be vtronic *if and when* someone takes my questions serious. so, asking again, what to do with reground or otherwise resubmitted patches?
jurov: since renaming is out of the question
thestringpuller: it's like exterminating cockroaches that refuse to die.
ascii_butugychag: jurov: append '-old' to the old name ?
polarbeard: sequence in filename?
ascii_butugychag: nobody signs the names
ascii_butugychag: can rename all you like
jurov: bubutbut mutilation!!!&%#%$
ascii_butugychag: gotta rename the sig too
ascii_butugychag: i was pissed because turdatron did not rename both
polarbeard: well names are for humans, I think humans is what jurov is concerned with
jurov: iirc whole lxr thing is for humans
polarbeard: otherwise just check the sig date using pgp, last patch wins
ascii_butugychag: jurov: for humans, but the idea here is that it ought to be able to swallow new patches
ascii_butugychag: without manual curation every time
ascii_butugychag: and show a coherent tree
ascii_butugychag: so long as every patch ever submitted can be pressed to, the thing works correctly.
polarbeard: but actually you need to store all versions in some common place to do further checking, they should come with different filenames...
ascii_butugychag: and if it can be pressed to,
ascii_butugychag: it can be viewed as an lxr.
jurov: so won't you take exception with branches in lxr named vpatchname_YYYMMMDD or vpatchname_SHA1 ?
jurov: (latter bring the original idea)
jurov: *being
mod6: ascii_butugychag: is this kinda what you were asking for yesterday? A vdiff of a pressed original patches (minus PVS fix) + shiva with pressed mod6's integrated patch + malleus regrind + shiva ?
ascii_butugychag: jurov: the latter is a no-go because sigs !
ascii_butugychag: it fucking breaks v!
ascii_butugychag: mod6: nope.
mod6: please explain again so i can get this completed.
ascii_butugychag: i wanted a diff of a) the result of applying my original patches b) the result of applying yours
ascii_butugychag: not the v output
ascii_butugychag: the tree.
ascii_butugychag: the two trees, diffed.
ascii_butugychag: see why ?
mod6: scroll to the bottom.
mod6: i did vdiff of the pressed out stuff.
jurov: not really, sigs were supposed to carry SHA1 of the patch they apply to
polarbeard: jurov: sha would be large and annoying, date +%s would be enough I think
ascii_butugychag: why is there any difference ?
jurov: just a cosmetic difference
polarbeard: and timestamp also keep order
ascii_butugychag: nono this re: mod6's thing
ascii_butugychag: jurov: also why do we have sha1 in the mix
mod6: <+ascii_butugychag> the two trees, diffed. << i believe this is what I have and what you're looking for, is it not?
ascii_butugychag: mod6: something is very wrong here
mod6: ok, how?
ascii_butugychag: it is as if the pvs fix is not in one of the trees ?
mod6: it ~isn~
mod6: t
mod6: its only on the right hand side.
ascii_butugychag: well then this is not what i asked for
mod6: the left hand side is just the ~original~ patches + shiva
ascii_butugychag: i wanted to see a diff of my tree (pvs, and my pvs fix, and shiva, and the shiva fix) vs yours (where the patches and their bugfixes were agglomerated)
jurov: sha1 because i wanted to track files by contents and sha1 was at hand
ascii_butugychag: the trees, as i understand, ought to be ~the same~ after each scenario
jurov: since name+date was decided, will use that
ascii_butugychag: jurov: how will you deal with sigs produced after the patch submission date ?
ascii_butugychag: e.g., mircea_popescu signs my patch, etc
ascii_butugychag: also all existing vtrons, afaik, match sigs to patches by using the filename.
punkman: submitting patches with the same name kinda confuses things, maybe we could not do it instead?
jurov: punkman i said that, there were screams it's not vtronic
ascii_butugychag: i'm all for not-doing-it
polarbeard: ascii_butugychag: why can't sigs have the same timestamp?
ascii_butugychag: polarbeard: because sigs submitted arbitrarily later than the patch !!!
polarbeard: it's just a version string
ascii_butugychag: by OTHER PEOPLE
ascii_butugychag: who are not the patch author
polarbeard: it happens to be the unix time because is pseudo-universal
polarbeard: for the rate that patches get built I think it will be fine
ascii_butugychag: existing pgptrons do not, afaik, allow you to specify a custom timestamp
ascii_butugychag: and i have no intention of asking people to use a patched pgptron simply so they can use v
polarbeard: you're talking about the file metadata?
phf: hehe, poor ascii
jurov: anyway, matching the signature against all versions of one patch isn't so big thing to swallow
polarbeard: I mean a timestamp in the filename author_patch_thing_$(date +%s).vpatch
ascii_butugychag: jurov: sure but now every vtron would need to be rewritten to actually break down filenames
ascii_butugychag: and existing patches - renamed, etc
ascii_butugychag: this is nasty
ascii_butugychag: also using signature timestamps for anything is idiotic
ascii_butugychag: cardano for instance will NOT have a clock
ascii_butugychag: and produces CONSTANT timestamp.
polarbeard: still don't see how we can't have author_file_unixtime.vpatch and
jurov: actually no, people will rename them manually, the curation as you intended all along
polarbeard: and that would not require renaming past patches actually
ascii_butugychag: jurov: how about we have the simple and sane solution - a name can be used once.
ascii_butugychag: submit duplicate ? rejected.
ascii_butugychag: not duplicate? accepted, without motherfucking mangling
ascii_butugychag: for all time.
jurov: i am sooooo in favot of adding another hurdle to turdatron!!!
ascii_butugychag: this is not a hurdle.
ascii_butugychag: it is sanity.
ascii_butugychag: demanding that world move and rearrange itself because somebody wants to reuse a name, is lunacy.
ascii_butugychag: this also handily LEAVES ALONE all existing vtrons
ascii_butugychag: does not require 1000 extra lines of regex crapola in any.
jurov: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: ~patch submitter~ has the responsibility of coming up with a unique name.
ascii_butugychag: every. single. time.
polarbeard: so no patch replacements?
ascii_butugychag: no. imho it is the entirely wrong way to go about it.
ascii_butugychag: mod6, ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu, et al can produce curated trees simply by signing.
ascii_butugychag: using renaming for curation is intensely anti-vtronic.
jurov: i agree, let's have unique names
polarbeard: I completely see unique names are a must, but if you don't replace you'll keep mistakes in the tree?
ascii_butugychag: the mistakes live forever.
ascii_butugychag: BUT they are not in the longest chain!
ascii_butugychag: they get orphaned.
ascii_butugychag: this is intrinsic to how v works
ascii_butugychag: and the whole point of it.
polarbeard: oh, now I see the complete picture
ascii_butugychag: every patch ever written ~is in the tree~ as it appears to archaeologists
ascii_butugychag: mod6 doesn't have to host it on his site
ascii_butugychag: but the global, imaginary tree contains all vpatches ever authored
ascii_butugychag: your local one consists of all of the ones you downloaded for which you have the signatures you accept as valid
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65929 @ 0.00055938 = 36.8794 BTC [-] {6}
ascii_butugychag: mod6: ok now ~that's~ it
mod6: ok np
ascii_butugychag: safe to fire.
ascii_butugychag: no apparent differences.
phf: fwiw deleting a patch doesn't "remove it" as such, but ensures that all descendants are unpressable
mod6: i guess that makes sense you wanted to see it that way - i thought the first way just because that way there ~is~ a diff to look at. but maybe this is better.
ascii_butugychag: phf: not so much unpressable, but that ~you~ lost the ancestors
ascii_butugychag: mod6: waitasec
mod6: sup
ascii_butugychag: what i am expecting to see in a correct press is for the trees to be IDENTICAL
ascii_butugychag: your patches ought to add up to same thing as mine did
mod6: are they not identical?
ascii_butugychag: looks like they are
ascii_butugychag: supposing that your vtron works correctly
ascii_butugychag: this means that the new patches have the same effect as the old.
mod6: well, hopefully my vtron works correctly.
ascii_butugychag is still not sure why it was necessary to discard the history and compress the old patch + its fix into a new one
ascii_butugychag: but looks like it was done correctly.
mod6: i dunno either now, that was a giant pain in the ass.
ascii_butugychag: i mean hey, it's ~my~ history of bug-crapping that is being whitewashed over, so i shouldn't complain... but still
mod6: in other news, ive got a patch for V that's not only the fix for the post-press hash checking, but also for the problem when running the graphing tool with a node that has no decendants. and a couple of small cleanup things.
mod6: I'll probably just send the patch to the ML to recruit people to help me test over the next two weeks.
mod6: (with some instructions etc)
PeterL: if you have patches a->b->c and you decide to get rid of b, you should end up with a->b->c->(-b), not with a->c' (where c' is reground c without b patch) , do I understand correct?
mod6: then if all is good, i'll roll up another publication of the whole thing & call it v99995
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: aha, i call this an 'antipatch'
ascii_butugychag: or antimatter patch
PeterL: is the antimatter patch the correct way to do it?
mod6: ok lunch time!
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: imho it is.
punkman: darcs also has "inverse patches" in their "theory"
ascii_butugychag: and i officially consider regrinds a thing to be avoided if at all physically possible
ascii_butugychag: they smack of pious fraud, 'this was always perfect, born of the gods'
shinohai: o/ mod6 didja get some sleep ?
PeterL: why not just regrind all the patches off the genesis and act like we fixed it in one blow?
punkman: don't we have to be careful with the antipatches though, so as not to introduce cycles in the graph?
ascii_butugychag: punkman: if a patch creates a cycle, it is ipso facto invalid.
ascii_butugychag: (and this oughta be checked for by a vtron)
ascii_butugychag: and it is trivially possible to unwind to arbitrary point without creating a cycle
ascii_butugychag: (leave a comment.)
PeterL: so in my example, if you add a patch d, it could equally be added to (-b) or (c') ?
punkman: ascii_butugychag: right, I guess good time to remind people
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: definitely not
ascii_butugychag: as that would require the hash of (-b) and (c') to be equal
PeterL: why not?
ascii_butugychag: which would be a cycle.
PeterL: wouldn't they be equal?
ascii_butugychag: draw this on paper.
ascii_butugychag: no cycles.
ascii_butugychag: this is axiomatic.
assbot: Understanding Darcs/Patch theory - Wikibooks, open books for an open world ... ( )
ascii_butugychag: 'To understand commutation, you should understand why we cannot keep our original patches, but are forced to rely on evil step sisters instead.' << seems like they solved it in the PRECISELY most-anti-vtronic way.
ascii_butugychag: which is mega-unsurprising
ascii_butugychag: because they aren't tmsr and do not have our axioms.
phf: (peace be upon them
ascii_butugychag: << mega-recommended to mircea_popescu , great for some indigestion
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23450 @ 0.00056299 = 13.2021 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Understanding Darcs/Patch theory - Wikibooks, open books for an open world ... ( )
PeterL: ascii_butugychag> as that would require the hash of (-b) and (c') to be equal << is it looking at the hash of the pressed value, which should be the same, or the hash of the patches themselves, which I understand are quite different?
PeterL: !up ascii_butugychag
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9250 @ 0.00056246 = 5.2028 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: <+shinohai> o/ mod6 didja get some sleep ? << ah ya. no worries :]
assbot: New Lithium Battery Is Five Times Better Than Current Ones | IFLScience ... ( )
shinohai: "This also means that Gavins assumptions/estimates regarding the usage for 20 MB blocks unfortunately were very wrong:"
assbot: Setup and stats of my full node : Bitcoin ... ( )
phf: so there's two sig's that are not sha512. genesis.vpatch.trinque.sig is sha256 and polarbeard_add_getpeerinfo_rpc.vpatch.polarbeard.sig is sha1
phf: perhaps something that v should filter by
mod6: !up ascii_butugychag
mod6: ascii_butugychag: here's another look at the difference between both via sha512 hash diff:
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17473 @ 0.00055933 = 9.7732 BTC [-] {2}
phf: i was trying to see if could look up the corresponding vpatch by decoding the sig's hash, and then assoc into a precomputed map of vpatch hashes. unfortunately openpgp concats the sig header to the payload, so can't precompute :/
jurov: phf this was tried several times but since the hash in the signature is done with a date and whatnot,
jurov: it can't be used to identify signed document
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.00055933 = 2.545 BTC [-]
ascii_butugychag: aha this was the first major 'pgp is broken beyond repair' thread, iirc.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22332 @ 0.00055933 = 12.491 BTC [-]
mod6: !up ascii_butugychag
danielpbarron: << i have it tail -f'ing split on a monitor along with my Eulora explore bot logs, always in my periphery
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:01:22; ascii_butugychag: does nobody but me actually watch their trb logs ?
danielpbarron: although honestly the Eulora log is way more interesting
thestringpuller: as are most RPG logs
mod6: i read trb logs every day. who doesn't?
mod6: nearly 5 years now.
ascii_butugychag: trb is what, 14 mo. old ?
mod6: oh thought you meant #b-a
mod6: trb logs === mailing list?
ascii_butugychag: debug.log
mod6: oooh. hhahah
mod6: duh duh durr durrr durrr durr dur dur
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4250 @ 0.00056395 = 2.3968 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: speaking of which, thanks to the helping hand of the other republic nodes, is a fully synced trb public node
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00056396 = 3.3838 BTC [+]
mod6: cool!
mod6: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: congrats trinque !
felipelalli: Thank you trinque!
jurov: felipelalli: what does this do?
assbot: Bitcoin OTC WoT para preguiçosos ... ( )
jurov: (linked from ... maybe unicode was the problem)
trinque: jurov: nah, deedbot is still jammed until I get trb to send the next bundle
trinque: I've got my key imported (via pywallet into wallet.dat)
trinque: going to poke it more in a bit
mod6: kewl. i seem to recall having to do a -rescan afterward but i could be wrong
mod6: (after importing privkey)
trinque: ah k
felipelalli: jurov, it is the Bitcoin OTC WoT for the lazy
felipelalli: but it is version zero, only alpha, not so serious yet.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16250 @ 0.0005635 = 9.1569 BTC [-] {4}
felipelalli: trinque, the start of the problem was my expired key, wasn't it?
trinque: nope, coincidental
trinque: for some reason my concoction of pybitcointools and btcd stopped making valid transactions
ascii_butugychag: felipelalli: java, winblowz ?!
ascii_butugychag: when do we get 'reactor controlz for the lazy'
shinohai saw that .jar file, clicked off.
jurov: felipelalli: i can see, but...user that doesn't know how to make a signature or talk to gribble don't have anything to do in otc
felipelalli: ascii_butugychag, unfortunately yes.
ascii_butugychag: felipelalli: you say this as if you had no choice ?
felipelalli: jurov, I understand. But it is being very useful so far in Brazilian community. Actually the app can sign messages (not verify it yet)
jurov: what doies "very useful" mean?
danielpbarron: let me see if i can make one of those funny metaphores out of this: "that's like a cock that can get you pregnant, but you can't have sex with it"
felipelalli: lol, I knew that you guys would say that.
PeterL: Do they not have real computers in Brazil?
BingoBoingo: <ascii_butugychag> when do we get 'reactor controlz for the lazy' << In Japan. Turns out Fukushima was running off of one of those dollar store Sharp organizers.
felipelalli: jurov, they are learning the importance of the thing, at least, I hope. They are learning the importance to make solid contracts and verify the people reputation.
ascii_butugychag: solid, verified, in java on winblowz aha.
ascii_butugychag: cattle have a place.
ascii_butugychag: men have a place.
felipelalli: ascii_butugychag, yes. my first idea was make this 100% web, but the IRC let me crazy. So I had just two dawns to implement it, I choose the cheapest for my good will and the win version is because they demanded it
ascii_butugychag: cow-man chimera - is grotesque.
felipelalli: ascii_butugychag, I didn't ask you to use it, didn't I?
felipelalli: *did I?
danielpbarron: why not just have an html form with no illusions of crypto; would be infinitely more useful for your purposes
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: What you should do for great lolz is depreciate the windows version.
ascii_butugychag: no. but i was curious what felipelalli was thinking when he produced this.
BingoBoingo: Get them hooked, pull the rug out from under them, see which ones swim.
BingoBoingo: <ascii_butugychag> cow-man chimera - is grotesque. << to be fair this is kinda what bitcoin-otc has become already...
phf: today lazy, tomorrow dead. poor technology choices kill. this message was brought to you by the tmsr agitprop dpt
assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
felipelalli: I am writing an article about the importance of the Bitcoin OTC WoT. This image is part of it:
felipelalli: do you guys recommend me some material to read before publish it?
danielpbarron: these very logs
danielpbarron: or are you going to spend another 6 months not reading it?
felipelalli: danielpbarron, it is already for sure.
felipelalli: danielpbarron, plus some trilema posts
thestringpuller: "[We should see Bitcoin classic use ramp up] after binaries are released. Most people don't want to compile". << These people really shouldn't be involved in Bitcoin. Like going to war without learning to clean gun.
danielpbarron: ok and why are your brazillian friends any different?
felipelalli: danielpbarron, they are lazy?
danielpbarron: why are you friends with the lazy?
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: I suggest two more pictures: result of abandoning windows and end game of using windows
assbot: Eats to much ... ( )
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
felipelalli: BingoBoingo, I don't use Windows.
felipelalli: the exe I generated with a tool inside a VM
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: SUre, but your people do. Those pictures help make the case for the lazy.
felipelalli: danielpbarron, good question. Because if I don't, I feel too lonely? :D
felipelalli: ahahhaaha
danielpbarron: so be lonely
BingoBoingo: related danielpbarron If you want to keep triggering fatties on twitter you gotta study and learn to deliver the lines yourself.
felipelalli: ahhaha BingoBoingo so true.
danielpbarron: and since when do you need to pretend to sign contracts with someone to get along with them?
felipelalli: danielpbarron, because I am nerd?
danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, that thread man.. 40k impressions and like.. that one reply. A whole sea of watchers, the highest level of involvement they can handle is "liking" something
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8422 @ 0.00056532 = 4.7611 BTC [+] {2}
danielpbarron: and since when is 'nerd' a compliment? that's related to the fatty thing
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Still, you gotta learn the slurs and work on a more natural delivery I recommend just sticking reading the text posts here
assbot: If you can't beetus, join us! - Now with 50% more ramen! ... ( )
danielpbarron: you should be ashamed to be a nerd
thestringpuller: danielpbarron: you a twitter celebrity now?
felipelalli: danielpbarron, I am.
danielpbarron: ok then, cast off those nerd phreinds, spend more time in here
felipelalli: and I am ashamed to trying to help the lazy people! But it is being fun.
felipelalli: at least.
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: Find news in Brazil and please to qntra it up.
danielpbarron: thestringpuller, i got into it with a fairly popular girly about "nice guys" and sexual dominance or something; turns out i think we were agreeing with eachother without realizing it
felipelalli: BingoBoingo, say about the Brazilian Bitcoin market is a good thing? For example?
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: Maybe work up to that. Maybe start by chronicling socialist evils perpetuated by your government
felipelalli: BingoBoingo, good idea.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00056693 = 2.4378 BTC [+]
felipelalli: I am going to my swimming lesson now. Thanks for the obvious comments that I was expecting. I tried to hide from you, but you got me! outch!
ben_vulpes: poor trinque
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: Anyways it's a better use of time doing things that can't be done on windows and making your friends want to leave the windows favella than just doing everything for them.
ben_vulpes: he probably destroyed what's left of the trinquetop in rage
trinque: eh I knew that ball of duct tape and twine wasn't going to last
BingoBoingo: Of all the #b-a projects, deedbot's probably up there for frustration induced
ben_vulpes: > mikebook
trinque: and now... there's shiva !
ben_vulpes: hey you're patching an eatrawtx into shiva then?
felipelalli: BingoBoingo, not all of them are my "friends". Actually I want to identify the bad actors in the community. I could implement an automatic -1 from me for who install the exe version!! lol
felipelalli: thank you!! see you.
trinque: ben_vulpes: new deedbot code's all CL; would be nice and tidy to be crapping sexp commands into shiva from it
ben_vulpes: eval-over-socket
ascii_butugychag: shiva most desperately needs session persistence
assbot: I was fired after a stranger sent photos of my private text messages to my employer — Ask a Manager ... ( )
ascii_butugychag: that is, currently, a shiva runtime is destroyed on hangup
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell funkenstein_ yo are you going to submit that privkey import backport to the ml?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: ben_vulpes: first I'm getting deed txns going by using the trb wallet; I don't want to have to wait for an implementation of eatrawtx to resume deeds
ascii_butugychag: it does ~not~ need persistent sessions for ~any~ rpc-style usage scenario, note
phf: if i have a gpgme key instance, is there some way to patch its trust level?
ascii_butugychag: i am merely stating this for the benefit of noobz
ben_vulpes: ascii_butugychag: aha
ben_vulpes: 'stateless protocol'
phf: doesn't need persistent for slime type use either. can just connect and mainloop, so the state will be around for duration of session?
ascii_butugychag: nope, it does
ascii_butugychag: right now if you try to use slime-like item with shiva,
ascii_butugychag: you end up with ONE repl at a time
phf: oh it locks..
ascii_butugychag: well it doesn't lock, but it gives you one lisp world per telnet connection
ascii_butugychag: which dies when the latter dies.
ascii_butugychag: and the only thing the worlds share is their trb image
ascii_butugychag: which - when we actually get shiva hooks that ~modify~ as well as read - does have a global lock
ascii_butugychag: so right now a shiva session is really a very 'obese' rpc call
ascii_butugychag: spins up a whole lisp universe for just a command or two
danielpbarron: speaking of obese, from BingoBoingo's linked article >> But for what it's worth, you yourself aren't coming out smelling like a rose here -- and not because of your actions in this story, but because of your commentary on it: You have a pretty gross attitude toward overweight people. << haha found the fatty! (TM)
ascii_butugychag: however, persisting shiva isn't a trivial thing
ascii_butugychag: because it needs to disconnect & reconnect i/o terms
ascii_butugychag: and this will require modifications of tinyscheme proper
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: See, you're learning
ascii_butugychag: (which is why i didn't do it)
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: re: << what needs to happen for this not need to be handled with radiation suit?
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: for starters, to find all of the 10,001 buffer overflows in tinyscheme and fix
ascii_butugychag: but even then, a debugger that listens on tcp is a dangerous thing to have around
ascii_butugychag: esp. once it is actually a debugger and not simply a lame proof of concept as now
thestringpuller: aha. so pretty much ~only~ for labratory use as stated.
BingoBoingo: To be fair, it may not need whole radiation suit, a glove box may be fine.
ascii_butugychag: i don't think i will ~ever~ recommend tinyscheme on a box which carries live-fire coin.
ascii_butugychag: we will write our own scheme.
ascii_butugychag: with no motherfucking 'idiomatic c'/
thestringpuller: cowboy coding and debugging on production is for the truly brave.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9300 @ 0.00056222 = 5.2286 BTC [-] {3}
phf likes how tinyscheme doesn't check arity
phf: in other news takes 13.78 seconds to match all patches to all sigs with elimination on my laptop
ascii_butugychag: phf: O(N^2)
ascii_butugychag: gonna only get worse.
mod6: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: phf: it is very minimal; no free lunch
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21756 @ 0.00055922 = 12.1664 BTC [-] {3}
deedbot-: [Qntra] Ebay Has No Plans To Stop Being A Vector For Malware Propagation -
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13929 @ 0.00056777 = 7.9085 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: so i've just been shopping in the tiniest shop i have ever seen.
deedbot-: [Qntra] Alan Reiner Quits Armory as Multi-Year Commercialization Effort Fails -
BingoBoingo: ^ A lol
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: What sort of wears were in the tiny shop?
mircea_popescu: it's inconceivable without seeing it. like 20 sq feet affair that was maybe five foot tall, you had to go in two fucking steps. and then the actual shop, down a steep flight of stairs, another 30 sqft or so i guess.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo best slutwear thing in buenos aires, by a large margin.
mircea_popescu: i bought things so small you could carry them inside your nostril.
BingoBoingo: Tis the natural order of things
mircea_popescu: << this is an impossible question to answer tho. what do you mean "what to do"
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:28:22; jurov: lxr may be vtronic *if and when* someone takes my questions serious. so, asking again, what to do with reground or otherwise resubmitted patches?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13850 @ 0.00056555 = 7.8329 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:30:57; polarbeard: otherwise just check the sig date using pgp, last patch wins
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21200 @ 0.00056485 = 11.9748 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:44:29; ascii_butugychag: existing pgptrons do not, afaik, allow you to specify a custom timestamp
thestringpuller: slutware that's a good phrase
danielpbarron: lemme guess, change system time?
trinque: mod6: I did a rescan but don't see my key as part of the default "account". I'll fiddle with the wallet.dat a bit more, then take a look at backporting that importprivkey
mircea_popescu: << cue very angry alf "it rejected my thing!111"
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:49:33; ascii_butugychag: submit duplicate ? rejected.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron quite.
mod6: trinque: hmm. yah, i had to like use that tool, do a rescan and a restart, and then it was in there. but yea, that back port, if sane, would be best.
trinque: mod6: the tool you used was pywallet ?
mod6: sounds like it.
mircea_popescu: <<< from now you will be known as hashislav because stanislav was taken long ago
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:50:30; ascii_butugychag: demanding that world move and rearrange itself because somebody wants to reuse a name, is lunacy.
punkman: is returning a loading gif here, anyone else?
BingoBoingo: punkman: Yeah
mircea_popescu: << i dunno that i renamed anything when signing it. i thought thatg's how we do it, i take the original and turn it into
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:53:44; ascii_butugychag: using renaming for curation is intensely anti-vtronic.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.0005626 = 7.2575 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: yah, that's how my sigs look for
mircea_popescu: << confirmed this is what i get from
assbot: dpaste: 3VTH8EN ... ( )
mircea_popescu: << so if i make a script to fuck whores and i call it and then it's mistaken and abandoned now i'm stuck using instead and if that also gets burned i'll end up doing ?
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:55:51; ascii_butugychag: they get orphaned.
mircea_popescu: well i can't reuse a name can i.
punkman: yeah but these are patches not scripts
mircea_popescu: same difference.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu punkman: This is what tends to do when it's overloaded.
mircea_popescu: << how about the logical thing, unique names PER TREE.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:56:08; polarbeard: oh, now I see the complete picture
mircea_popescu: i can make as many fuckwhores.vpatch as i want, but only one can end up in any given tree.
danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, it's been 'overloaded' all day it seems
punkman: blog's still there
assbot: blog ... ( )
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: And Qntra/trilema have been down for a week plus at a time when overloaded.
mircea_popescu: "Also, I heard that people are more willing to help animals than other people. Thus the donations to a pet rescue fund can be seen as the upper estimate of how donation to the webpage capture project would perform."
mircea_popescu: << in your case you should end up with a->c'. if there's a much longer chain then the -b method makes more sense.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:04:14; PeterL: if you have patches a->b->c and you decide to get rid of b, you should end up with a->b->c->(-b), not with a->c' (where c' is reground c without b patch) , do I understand correct?
mircea_popescu: it's really up to the maintainers.
mircea_popescu: << no, antipatches are to be avoided if at all possible.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:05:25; ascii_butugychag: and i officially consider regrinds a thing to be avoided if at all physically possible
mircea_popescu: the WRITER does the work, always. not the reader.
mircea_popescu: you don't like doing the work, don't fucking write.
mircea_popescu: too many people writing code as it is.
mircea_popescu: must be discouraged as much as possible.
mod6: put this in the cryptonomicon ^
mircea_popescu: "oh boo hoo, i am too important and gmaxwell to fucking fix things, here's my useless code that everyone's going to be stuck with forever"
mircea_popescu: "go die in a tyre fire"
mircea_popescu: !up topynate
mircea_popescu: << no dude, it's just "i have enough respect for the reader to not go A^HB^HA^HB^HC
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:05:59; ascii_butugychag: they smack of pious fraud, 'this was always perfect, born of the gods'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10226 @ 0.00055881 = 5.7144 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: regrind also creates work for readers
mircea_popescu: explain ?
topynate: hello all. thanks mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: regrind, to be perfectly clear, is the act of making a tree out of patches instead of keeping them linear. this is a known efficiency-of-search trope, and i shouldn't have to explain how distributing the patches out saves work when i'm pressing 3 years later and want to read the whole string of patches from genesis.
mircea_popescu: topynate hey there. who're you again ?
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:52:30; phf: so there's two sig's that are not sha512. genesis.vpatch.trinque.sig is sha256 and polarbeard_add_getpeerinfo_rpc.vpatch.polarbeard.sig is sha1
topynate: i wrote that bit on the block size at that you called "not terrible". i'm a math-literate developer.
assbot: Note on the block size limit | Particulars ... ( )
thestringpuller: regrind is alt-version of patch, why can't it be applied linearly? (or at least force such a workflow)
topynate: !register 112F353F5A3EEEBE3B0E824A36F13568F209C5B0
assbot: Searching for key with fingerprint: 112F353F5A3EEEBE3B0E824A36F13568F209C5B0. This may take a few moments.
assbot: Key F209C5B0 / "Nathan Daniel Cook <>" successfully imported.
assbot: Registration successful.
punkman: reading A->B->B(fixed) or A->B->B(regrind) is still 3 patches each
mircea_popescu: oh right!
mircea_popescu: punkman the first is a->b'
mircea_popescu: !rate topynate 1 Not terrible
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.topynate.1:011db29b9a8be532616ecfe1051d2b2dd5705a4e5b071812518538ee7b5d7f30
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for topynate with note: Not terrible
mircea_popescu: topynate now let's thrash this out. can you define "quota" ?
punkman: also could be valuable to see how B started out and then fixed, without having to diff the various versions of B patch
mircea_popescu: punkman why without ?
mircea_popescu: you want archeology, dig by all means.
mircea_popescu: besides, the same selective memory thing that was deliberately put into deedbot works here as well. some dead chains will be forgotten before others.
topynate: a binding limit on how much of something is made
mircea_popescu: understand that immutable systems are VERY dangerous in principle. your world is mutable.
mircea_popescu: topynate does it matter if its conventional or real ?
mircea_popescu: is h a quota ?
topynate: sorry, what's h?
mircea_popescu: planck's constant.
topynate: ah. no, i don't think you can stretch it that far. that would be like saying the total quantity of oil in the ground was a quota on oil production.
mircea_popescu: but it does meet your definition. "a binding limit on how much of something is made". it is binding, it is a limit, and it is on how much ofsomething can be made.
mircea_popescu: it's not a matter of stretching anything.
mircea_popescu: did you mean to say "a conventional limit" ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2800 @ 0.00055747 = 1.5609 BTC [-] {2}
topynate: yes. so long as it's a convention with teeth. e.g. opec's oil production quota used to be a real quota because enforcible, now it isn't
mircea_popescu: in this sense the argument can be brought that while the early block limit as implemented by miners (using 60% of the 1mb blocks) WAS a quota, the actual 1mb block size is not a quota at all,
mircea_popescu: but simply its own kind of universal constant.
mircea_popescu: what say you to that ?
mircea_popescu: << hey, he lives in a country where the poor buy tvs instead of fridges. what choice does he have, to move to wash dc ?
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:22:52; ascii_butugychag: felipelalli: you say this as if you had no choice ?
topynate: that would be remarkable; i can see the 1mb size being such a strong convention that no-one would have any expectation of successfully altering it, but unsure how it could have a universal nature like that of h
mircea_popescu: topynate well, consider that we can alter the value of h by altering the units of measurement. suppose all alteration of the 1mb block limit reduces to similarly a mere change in the units of measurement.
mircea_popescu: that'd be ONE way it could have such universal nature.
mircea_popescu: moreover, whether it does or might isn't the point. the point is, can you prove it doesn't have such nature ? because unless you can, speaking of it as a quota is iffy.
topynate: if it really is a universal constant, then there are a lot of wasted words on the block size limit, including my own - anyone trying to abrogate it will just fall flat on his face
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:24:49; danielpbarron: let me see if i can make one of those funny metaphores out of this: "that's like a cock that can get you pregnant, but you can't have sex with it"
mircea_popescu: topynate quite. consider, just for the sake of conversation, the situation of a child who rfound his father's musket.
mircea_popescu: now this child sees an apple in the tree, shoots at it and hits.
mircea_popescu: he then thinks to himself : "i could shoot as high or as low as i want, and the bullet wouldstill hit the apple, because i'm that special, and because that's what man made muskets for and how bullets work etc".
mircea_popescu: this IS of course true, provided the child manages to alter the powder charge too, so the bullet's speed and its angle are always in the right ratio.
mircea_popescu: we so far fired a single bullet out of a gun we don't even know who the fuck made. seems a lot of unwarranted cockyness all around for this little knowledge.
mircea_popescu: you know ?
topynate: nice koan. so istm your point is that the effort on fiddling with the parameters would be better spent on understanding why it works in the first place?
mircea_popescu: similarly to how my argument is that rather than "improving" bitcoin, that time'd be better spent fixing the codebase as it is.
mircea_popescu: an argument persuasive enough that the whole foundation and the most serene republic is hard at work doing just that.
mircea_popescu: which brings us to what this is all about.
topynate: ok - what's it about?
danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.topynate.1:226e5cfbd7f23a264f5b52ba305a97966ac4dfa28041b36feaf8944e880f301a
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for topynate with note: I showed him the log, and marvel of marvels, he joined!
mircea_popescu: no i mean, #bitcoin-assets etc. trying to understand how it works, fixing the code etc.
topynate: ah, i see. the project in toto
thestringpuller: topynate: you can self voice now
mircea_popescu: you can voice yourself, send assbot !up in a pm
mircea_popescu: and for the record, the name for the opposite attitude used here is "power ranger". because totally.
pete_dushenski: << heh. i thought this commrade mighta been trinque's but it's not quite synced as far as he claims his btcd replacement for deedbot- is.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 13:20:51; asciilifeform: << in mircea_popescu's trb fleet ?
mircea_popescu: nope not mine.
pete_dushenski: << tevye was about the same. also yesterday.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 13:29:59; asciilifeform: in other news, zoolag was blackholed for a record-breaking 8 hours.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: soon my ip will be coming from 'russian federation' neh ;)
danielpbarron: !rated PeterL
assbot: You rated user PeterL on 14-Oct-2014, with a rating of -2, and supplied these additional notes: He made fetchbot, the bot that can't stay up..
danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.unrate.PeterL:f467e2281c524f35e0a463a15b4378ac0cb531bfb107a7ecd58d5a5a0dd3d753
assbot: Successfully unrated PeterL
pete_dushenski: << i've had to restart as well every 2-5 days in the last 3 weeks. same 'network' issues causing lag of 10-100 blocks. fixed instantly by restart, new peer discovery.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:52:32; ascii_butugychag: restart - always cures
pete_dushenski: i'm not sure that it is for a public node.
pete_dushenski: for a '-connect' private node ? probably, but every single '-addnode' public node, save asciilifeform's majick baltic node, seems to variously lag before restarting, at least as far as i can follow from
pete_dushenski: which i follow quite a bit !
pete_dushenski: << yes. but maybe it's a n00bish fascination thing i have.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:01:22; ascii_butugychag: does nobody but me actually watch their trb logs ?
pete_dushenski: << ~0.5x time is 'connecting' and 'disconnecting'. seems inefficient, but maybe that's the price of a distributed network ?
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:01:32; ascii_butugychag: these things spend a good chunk of their time not node-in !1111
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2000 @ 0.00056796 = 1.1359 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4500 @ 0.0005679 = 2.5556 BTC [-]
danielpbarron: !rated cazalla
assbot: You rated user cazalla on 18-Aug-2014, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: Dedicated reporter..
danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.cazalla.2:4faa087a63fca71433abc1847b38cbecbecb4a5e54b6c5580459bc5699d9e437
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for cazalla from 3 to 2 with note: friend of the Republic, former qntra guy
pete_dushenski: the alternative (atm) is a ~fixed~ set of peers determined at random on start-up, as seen in 'multibit', which i can tell you from first hand experience this week has not been broadcasting select transactions from select keys. at all. and this is in no way fixable.
pete_dushenski: so if it sounds shitty to have a node blackholed, imagine having a ~privkey~ blackholed.
pete_dushenski: even after reviewing 'multibit' error logs, it was in no way clear to me how or why this should even be possible.
pete_dushenski: but that's what you get for sucking mike hearn's dong and expecting a cream soda to come gushing out.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:27:37; ascii_butugychag: cow-man chimera - is grotesque.
pete_dushenski: so an idiot is me and i feel sorry for anyone who tries to do bitcoin casually because there's no goddam way.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:30:30; felipelalli: I am writing an article about the importance of the Bitcoin OTC WoT. This image is part of it:
pete_dushenski: bitcoin's too complicated, too barbed, too thorny, too messy, and too time-consuming for sortakindausers. this is obviously an asset in a great many ways, but it can still be frustrating for persistent folks. not that this is news to everyone beating prb into trb....
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7284 @ 0.00056849 = 4.1409 BTC [+] {3}
danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.fghj.2:59c19cc150c5e92a3011a3467c72ce48fc26901b8c18fc63405b5624e380c612
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 2 for fghj with note: very useful Eulora noob
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski well... being worked on
mircea_popescu: << isn't this how intergender discussion usually goes ?
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:40:10; danielpbarron: thestringpuller, i got into it with a fairly popular girly about "nice guys" and sexual dominance or something; turns out i think we were agreeing with eachother without realizing it
assbot: asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation ... ( )
phf: signers for the whole press, vs. signers for individual vpatches
mircea_popescu: wait what! you can't sign a whole press
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:44:23; BingoBoingo: Of all the #b-a projects, deedbot's probably up there for frustration induced
mircea_popescu: well... for a while i kept sending it nonraw dpastes, but hey.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I mean for the operators
phf: the set of people necessary to produce current set? or i possibly misunderstood the thread
phf: *current press
mircea_popescu: oh oh sorry. i get now what you're saying. lessee
mircea_popescu: phf well it's ok-ish in the sense that i have all the data to try and do the work by my own eyes.
phf: and what's the work?
mircea_popescu: but how i'd expect this to look is C (asciilifeform mircea_popescu mod6 trinque) D (asciilifeform), (mod6)
mircea_popescu: meaning that all those contributed and the press depends on either a set made out of alf or a set made out of mod6
mircea_popescu: phf and i don't need to see anything re genesis etc. just about the final destination.
mircea_popescu: am i being comprehensible ?
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:46:53; ascii_butugychag: that is, currently, a shiva runtime is destroyed on hangup
mircea_popescu: oh nm i see downstream in teh logs.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3300 @ 0.00056983 = 1.8804 BTC [+]
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm not groking but i realized that i need to take a break and eat instead of derping on a computer any longer, so i'll get back to you on that one
assbot: Ryan Kennedy, founder of Dogecoin exchange Moolah, charged with raping 5 women ... ( )
pete_dushenski: "Blockstream, a tech startup that employs several core developers of the bitcoin protocol, has raised $55 million in venture capital to develop its sidechain technology and expand its global operations." [...] "Horizons Ventures, AXA Strategic Ventures and Digital Garage led the Series A funding round, which brings the startup's total venture funding to $76 million to date." << all this paper (and cardamon smell) and
pete_dushenski: y still can't buy 10% of asciilifeform's time nor 10% of mod6's. fancy that :)
mircea_popescu: funny, i was just referencing RealTime Worlds the other day.
pete_dushenski: too bald.
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 368.1, vol: 7073.89874393 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 368.791, vol: 10000.78401 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 368.17, vol: 13120.38289945 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 374.99, vol: 0.96760754 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 376.2954, vol: 27684.61060000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 368.14, vol: 218.32829837 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 373.01025, vol: 180.08829077 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: 372.142877543
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all --currency rmb
gribble: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 2474.01, vol: 27717.21530000 | Volume-weighted last average: 2474.01
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:51:25; shinohai: "This also means that Gavins assumptions/estimates regarding the usage for 20 MB blocks unfortunately were very wrong:"
pete_dushenski: also a year and a half late, but what can you expect.
assbot: IRS Statement on Experiencing Systems Outage ... ( )
ben_vulpes: pinging BingoBoingo
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski and missing the "as mp said back in january 2015" bit, of course.
ben_vulpes: of particularly amusing note is that their payment-accepting system is broken.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Have fun with it.
guruvan: "Twenty megabytes downloaded plus twenty megabytes uploaded every ten minutes is about 170 gigabytes bandwidth usage per month " << gavin doesn't want well connected nodes I see
mod6: ermahgerd, gotta go blow some snow again.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: that's probably still another 1.5 years off. you're usually 3 years ahead of the curve, neh ?
mircea_popescu: << the way i expect this to work at least for a while will be shiva-p which will be a pretty limited thing and shiva-l which'll be an actual debugger and all that.
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:57:51; thestringpuller: aha. so pretty much ~only~ for labratory use as stated.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.0005679 = 2.4988 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 21:04:13; ascii_butugychag: phf: O(N^2)
BingoBoingo: Case Study: Watch a shitgnome in the wild paper over its enshittening
assbot: shrinknut comments on The End of the Road for Armory ... ( )
pete_dushenski: "but you could turn that off" << mega-lel
mircea_popescu: "I could probably write a book about the depth and complexity of events of the past year, the lessons I've learned and the personalities I've dealth with. However, at this point it's all history, and I've always been more interested in planning the future than dwelling too much on the past." << no, he couldn';t write a book. not anymore than boshiman could build a city on all the land he walks. moreover, orc imagines h
mircea_popescu: istory is a byword for dead and buried, which ties into why he will never be able to write a book.
mircea_popescu: or make anything worth the mention whatsoever.
assbot: xuisse: This, please. I should probably go into... - Cow and Mare ... ( )
pete_dushenski: "Along the way, we accumulated a mess of legal and corporate complexity that has made it difficult to do anything constructive with Armory's intellectual property." <--> "You think you want to take dollar investment, you think you want to make a non-Bitcoin company ? Think again. Think long, think hard, and start with this : what makes you think a fiat company is even possible anymore ?"
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Derps derping their way out is bullish for a 2013 replay. All we need now is RealSolid returning with yet another altcoin scam.
mircea_popescu: well i hear mit is hiring, so...
BingoBoingo: It's that herding instinct
pete_dushenski: speaking of animal behaviour,
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( )
pete_dushenski: "Many of the locksmith lead gens are run by Israelis, and Avi learned their modus operandi by working for them. When he landed at La Guardia Airport in 2008, he wanted to work with computers, the field he had trained for in Israel. But it was the height of the recession, and he did not have many options."
pete_dushenski: "Mr. Alverado said those fake buildings were necessary because getting to the first page in Google results now took ingenuity and cunning. “You have no idea,” he said, sounding a little weary when asked about competition. Israelis were his toughest rivals, he said, and they had instilled a kind of awe in him. “I can tell you point-blank, they are freaking smart,” he said. “I really admire them.”"
pete_dushenski: this is what happens when adlais without homes and consumers without wots meet in america.
pete_dushenski: off to pickup new specs. if i'm not back this evening, i'll be around under 'pete_d_out' over the coming days. cheers!
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 396574 | Current Difficulty: 1.2003334065123697E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 397151 | Next Difficulty In: 577 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 5 hours, 21 minutes, and 47 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: ;;nethash
gribble: 1055842789.25
felipelalli: << thank you mircea_popescu - the article I am writing starts with a quote made by your PR translated to Portuguese: "Se você não tem uma conta WoT você não faz parte do ecossistema Bitcoin. Esse é o critério, não importa o que você possa achar. É onde todos olham, não importa o que alguma rede social tem dito pra você. Se você não está no WoT você não está no
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 23:21:09; mircea_popescu: << that;'s actually pretty good.
felipelalli: Bitcoin."
mircea_popescu: o hey, check it out, i can read that.
felipelalli: danielpbarron, BingoBoingo etc. you guys convinced me to remove the win32shit stuff. I'll remove all files, actually.
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: I mean you can leave source for the old win32 stuff so the lazy but desperate can still try building it. Think of it like putting the icecream shop at the mall on the top floor so fat people gotta choose icecream or using stairs.
felipelalli: BingoBoingo, ahahh yes. But there is no special code to WIN32 actually in Java. The "exe" was just a wrapper. But if the guy can't execute a jar in Windows he just won't be able to use WoT anyway.
felipelalli: I'll put a link to source code and in Github I'll put the jar in "releases" section. I think it is better in this way at least while the app isn't so mature yet.
BingoBoingo: felipelalli: Maybe change the license on the software to: "You do not have license to use this code unless you translate the Java Bytecode to Fortran 95"
felipelalli: ahaahhh lol
mircea_popescu: felipelalli the reason you're getting so much grief is that it's not clear how your premises work. i mean i get it, you want to help people, and teach them about otc and so on. this is one thing. but i mean what did you do, i don't follow, reimplement gpg as a java thing ?
felipelalli: mircea_popescu, thank you mircea to understand my motivation. Yes, I tried to help. The "magic" to make the thing easy was to derivate a bitcoin keypair from the username+password using scrypt. I understand this can be unsafe if the user uses a bad password, but like you said, it is just to let the lazy people to taste the power of wot.
mircea_popescu: oh like that thing online what was it called
mircea_popescu: brainwallet or something
asciilifeform: drainwallet
asciilifeform: (rm) (r)
felipelalli: brainwallet uses sha256, it is a disaster
asciilifeform: 'ye heard it here phurst'
mircea_popescu: but basically the same thing except as a java ?
felipelalli: but yes, it's not the safest thing anyway!
felipelalli: mircea_popescu, in java and it uses scrypt.
asciilifeform: 'same meal but merely eaten once before'
felipelalli: BingoBoingo, see now: ahah
assbot: Bitcoin OTC WoT para preguiçosos ... ( )
BingoBoingo: Just enough rope for a person to shoot themself in the foot when they get surprised that rope does that
asciilifeform: << this is an ok (if wasteful of cycles) thing if using shiva only as rpc, but precludes writing any serious functionality in it
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 23:32:07; mircea_popescu: << not even sure this is a bad thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah eventyally got to the rest of the log.
BingoBoingo: !up Carli-
asciilifeform: << pete_dushenski would vomit out his guts if he knew what buys 90% of my time
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 23:36:26; pete_dushenski: y still can't buy 10% of asciilifeform's time nor 10% of mod6's. fancy that :)
guruvan: BingoBoingo: RTFM ;)
BingoBoingo: guruvan: rope the fugly meerkat?
assbot: Logged on 04-02-2016 00:08:24; mircea_popescu: << the way i expect this to work at least for a while will be shiva-p which will be a pretty limited thing and shiva-l which'll be an actual debugger and all that.
guruvan: BingoBoingo: "friendly"
asciilifeform: << i for one never understood the point of 'armory' to begin with
assbot: Logged on 04-02-2016 00:11:10; BingoBoingo: Case Study: Watch a shitgnome in the wild paper over its enshittening
asciilifeform: << see also the fake 'uber' cabs, and similar
Carli-: asciilifeform: Armory has "offline" wallets that you can spend from. How do you do that with bitcoin-qt?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The point of Armory was making people with too much RAM and CPU for their own good feel speshul
asciilifeform: Carli-: spend?!
BingoBoingo: Or at least that was the point when it loaded the whole blockchain in RAM
asciilifeform: Carli-: i also don't much care what the best stove for burning pieces of my sofa to heat my house would be, either
BingoBoingo: Because at one point loading the whole blockchain into RAM was an idea that didn't give most people pause.
Carli-: asciilifeform: With Armory, your private keys never touch an onine computer. Also has "Deterministic" wallets.
asciilifeform: !gettrust Carli-
assbot: Carli- is not registered in WoT.
Carli-: asciilifeform: And you can run Multiple wallets at the same time. Is there a way to do that with bitcoin-qt? I am trying to figure that out
asciilifeform: Carli-: afaik nobody here uses 'bitcoin-qt'
asciilifeform: for anything.
Carli-: asciilifeform: which wallet do you use? or are there any other wallets, that can do: Deterministic, Offline transactions, Multiple Wallets ?
shinohai: I said this today in pm with mod6: 17:37 shinohaiPlease no moar qt
guruvan: electrum - but to operate properly, you'd run your own server & node Carli-
asciilifeform: Carli-:
guruvan: asciilifeform: you have HD in trb?
asciilifeform: what's hd
Carli-: HD means Deterministic.
guruvan: deterministic key derivations
asciilifeform: why the FUCK would i
asciilifeform: srsly why do folks insist on tard crypto.
assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
asciilifeform: << recall, it calls out to gpg on shell !1111
assbot: Logged on 04-02-2016 00:09:57; mircea_popescu: << even so 14 s seems excessive.
Carli-: asciilifeform: so you can back up your wallet to a piece of paper once, only 18 words long is the "seed"
asciilifeform: Carli-: do you understand what this means mathematically ?
Carli-: asciilifeform: i think it is something like this, not sure: SHA256(Seed + 1), Sha256 (seed +2) etc...
adlai: this is the whole point of bip32 - backups which only need to be stolen once
adlai: Carli-: lol, you should probably read the bip if you're that excited about it
Carli-: asciilifeform: is there something wrong with BIP32?
assbot: bips/bip-0032.mediawiki at master · bitcoin/bips · GitHub ... ( )
asciilifeform: adlai has it.
adlai: there are some use cases for it, sure. but there's a reason that they weren't automatically merged in despite being invented by the same people
asciilifeform: the other thing is that quite possibly i can derive f(n + 1) from f(n)
adlai is not mathemagician enough to know how, but the construction is ~supposed~ to prevent this
Carli-: asciilifeform: yes, i think one of the problems: if someone has 2 of your Private keys AND your Master Public Key, they can find ALL of your private keys. IIRC
adlai: Carli-: s/2/1/
Carli-: are there any other problems with bip 32?
phf: i thought gpgme spawns a child process and keeps it around. still pushing all that data around is expensive..
asciilifeform: 'this pistol fires the bullet backwards into my face. are there any ~other~ problems with it?'
Carli-: hahaha
asciilifeform: phf: i don't recall anybody using gpgme here
adlai: Carli-: primarily you should understand that the main goals of bitcoin development (in this channel, at least) are to minimize the amount of moving parts
phf: quoted 14s is from my graph thing, and im using gpgme
Carli-: asciilifeform: well, the point is to keep your private keys on a Air-gapped computer offline forever
Carli-: (point of Armory)
adlai: this is an operational concern. the bitcoin node software doesn't even need to know what a private key is!
asciilifeform: Carli-: it is possible to do with without weakening the crypto.
asciilifeform: *to do this
adlai: Carli-: note that has no wallet.
assbot: ..::[ The Bitcoin Foundation ]::.. ... ( )
asciilifeform: adlai: this is not true
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5943 @ 0.00056983 = 3.3865 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: adlai: the original wallet code is entirely in there
asciilifeform: and i am on record as insisting on this.
adlai stands corrected.
asciilifeform: because it is a motherfucking REFERENCE implementation
asciilifeform: which must at all times remain capable of bootstrapping bitcoin on alpha centauri, if necessary.
Carli-: asciilifeform: How do you do Deterministic or Offline Wallets, without weakening the crypto?
asciilifeform: Carli-: 'deterministic' wallet is braindamaged
asciilifeform: what part of 'i can quite possibly derive your key' is difficult to understand.
adlai: asciilifeform: would it still be correct to say that there is no intent that people use trb as a wallet? or at least, use the same trb as a network node and a wallet node?
asciilifeform: adlai: you can use it as a jackhammer if you wish
asciilifeform: and i've certainly generated and transmitted tx using it
asciilifeform: as i think most people here have.
asciilifeform: fact is, there ~is~ no non-braindamaged 'wallet', aside from what each of us has quietly hacked together.
trinque: I am as we speak making deedbot use it exactly as such
Carli-: asciilifeform: isn't "deterministic" kind of similar to what OTR, or Axolotl does?
assbot: Axolotl (protocol) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( )
adlai: Carli-: again, the point here is to simplify bitcoin to the minimal required functionality. feature creep, even if they're useful features, is to be avoided.
trinque: lest I shorten my days on earth trying fixing abominations like pybitcointools or btcd
asciilifeform: Carli-: the state-of-the-art among thinking folk is that pre-generated tx are stored on paper and fed into a hot node when necessary
asciilifeform: nobody has seriously improved on this barbarism, at least publicly.
adlai would be reminded of travelers' checks, if he were old enough to have ever seen one
adlai: !up Carli-
adlai: Carli-: out of curiosity, how did you find this place? people usually have some inkling of its philosophy when they wander in...
Carli-: asciilifeform: cool, is there a guide that you recommend to do " pre-generated tx" ?
adlai: and why is your hostmask 'garza'
Carli-: i saw a blog that linked to this channel, adlai
adlai: and it didn't scream "these people hate javascrypto" at you?
Carli-: adlai: i was just responding to his post about Armory here, plus i am interested in "offline" transacations, and Multiple Wallets Simultaneously.
mod6: asciilifeform: any objections to me replacing those vpatches on the mirror now, or should I wait for you to give them a try first?
adlai: Carli-: well, you can keep your wallet(s) on an offline computer, and only send the addresses around on the internet - using any program.
trinque: mod6: I just built 99996 plus funkenstein's importprivkey patch btw, bout to give it a go
mod6: nice trinque, gl.
assbot: first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( )
Carli-: adlai: How do you make a transaction while keeping the wallet offline?
adlai: Carli-: you build the tx on the online node, transfer it across the airgap, sign on offline wallet, transfer back.
Carli-: adlai: is there a guide, that you recommend for that?
adlai: Carli-: not really, i don't think this is the same kind of procedure as googling three-ingredient brownies
Carli-: lol
assbot: Dating dreams dashed | fatpeoplehate ... ( )
asciilifeform: mod6: post'em
phf: where does wallet put its transactions? mempool?
shinohai: can confirm mod6 's patches work well
mod6: yah, shinohai tested these for me today. seemed to work for him.
mod6: asciilifeform: ok cool thx.
assbot: Logged on 04-02-2016 01:05:15; Carli-: asciilifeform: Armory has "offline" wallets that you can spend from. How do you do that with bitcoin-qt?
mircea_popescu: what distinction do you do there ? so you sign the txn on one system, and dump it as a rawtx on another. this is a big deal somehow ?
mod6: i'll also update the graph while im at it.
mircea_popescu: simple "offline" qt : have two talk to each other, inspect the interface, extract tx, dump it to printer.
assbot: Logged on 04-02-2016 01:07:57; Carli-: asciilifeform: With Armory, your private keys never touch an onine computer. Also has "Deterministic" wallets.
Carli-: mircea_popescu: Is there a guide on how to do it in bitcoin-qt? here is more info on how Armory works:
assbot: Cold Storage - Armory Bitcoin Wallet ... ( )
mircea_popescu: "Cold storage was innovated by the Armory Bitcoin wallet. Armory provide a first-of-its-kind interface for easily managing offline wallets for true cold storage. "
mircea_popescu: mmmkay it lost me.
mircea_popescu: got anything else ?
adlai is still curious about the 'garza' hostmask
phf: lurk 6 months, build trb, replace RelayMessage in with your own thing that serializes CTransaction to file, come back if that doesn't quite work
assbot: Satoshi ... ( )
BingoBoingo: Armory's biggest selling point was a "badass" name it could use to hook n00bz.
Carli-: mircea_popescu: iirc, the only thing that "touches"-- you can burn a CD/USB (qrcode?) of the transaction from the offline wallet. Also, it lets u run Multiple Wallets at the same time-- is there a way to do this in bitcoin-qt?
BingoBoingo: Carli-: pipe?
mircea_popescu: yes, i described it above.
Carli-: here is a screenshot of multiple wallets running:
assbot: File:Armory Bitcoin Client.png - Wikimedia Commons ... ( )
Carli-: BingoBoingo: what do you mean "pipe"?
BingoBoingo: Carli-: Like |
BingoBoingo: In a useful OS you can | things all over the place
adlai: Carli-: have you ever heard of "feature creep"? being able to specify a feature, which is related to an existing program, doesn't mean the same program should include that feature
Carli-: BingoBoingo: yes, but you want minimal contact for the airgapped machine. so some people recommend burning CD's
BingoBoingo: Carli-: You can | to CD
BingoBoingo: Or | to thermal receipt printer
BingoBoingo: ANd | to qrcode generator
Carli-: adlai: yes, i know feature creep
BingoBoingo: And the best part is | works very well offline
phf: "the later models were suposed to have been designed by other screamers"
mircea_popescu: by now the gap is so large people can't even grasp it.
mod6: ok mirror is updated. i've pulled, pressed, compiled and am now running with all the latest.
mod6: gl, let me know if anyone hits any snags.
mod6: the graph has been updated as well.
mircea_popescu: << for the record, the concept of "wallet" is pure nonsense.
assbot: Logged on 04-02-2016 01:32:11; Carli-: adlai: i was just responding to his post about Armory here, plus i am interested in "offline" transacations, and Multiple Wallets Simultaneously.
mircea_popescu: maybe not as self-combustingly insane as the Bitcoin notion of "accounts" , but still.
mircea_popescu: lmao people are dating on the basis of hating fat people ?
BingoBoingo: Apparently
BingoBoingo: When divorce comes it makes allotting fault easier. "Relationship was built on lies, why else would she get fat after declaring her hate for it"
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski I'm glad this one closed. Now that he's back he's on pace to hit 80 points. 30 games left, got three points in his first one back.
assbot: BitBet - Connor McDavid will live up to the hype :: 0.45 B (3%) on Yes, 12.72 B (97%) on No | closed 4 days 2 hours ago ... ( )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
TomServo: ahoy b-asseteers
TomServo: I've finally got a node past the wedge, and there was much rejoicing
BingoBoingo: Cool TomServo congrats
shinohai: gg TomServo
assbot: BitBet - Connor McDavid will live up to the hype :: 0.45 B (3%) on Yes, 12.72 B (97%) on No | closed 4 days 2 hours ago ... ( )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
TomServo: re: the conversation of logging earlier, I tend to launch bitcoind within a tmux session and have seen errors dumped to console after a hang/crash
TomServo: if these are also dumped to debug.log, I'm a dope and missed them
TomServo: but i'm probably just relaying the blatently obvious
shinohai: tmux is my friend for keeping it stable in stuck blocks
asciilifeform: achtung, panzers!
asciilifeform: second call for least-hated block cipher ???
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al ?
ben_vulpes: over my pay grade, frere
asciilifeform: you're all gonna end up with serpent
asciilifeform: at this rate.
shinohai: *sigh*
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform is so much more chatty at the new job
ben_vulpes: this is like two weeks straight of kilo+ logline days
asciilifeform: blame the folks doin' the milking
ben_vulpes: moo, moo
asciilifeform: 'we don't have a cow! we have a ~bull~...' (tm) (r) ('kingpin')
assbot: Kingpin (2/11) Best Movie Quote - We Don't Have a Cow (1996) - YouTube ... ( )
phf: aes-256 cbc?
asciilifeform does not particularly like aes
phf: twofish?
asciilifeform not overly fond of twofish
BingoBoingo: redfish? bluefish?
shinohai: gpg + ratchet ftw
phf: so in my gossipd attempt i'm basically just slinging gpg packets over the wire. have a little state machine that reads/validates openpgp packets from the wire. that doesn't work for streams though.. (in before eww)
mod6: mircea_popescu asciilifeform ben_vulpes trinque shinohai et al:
assbot: [BTC-dev] V [v99995] Beta - Call For Testers! ... ( )
mod6: <+TomServo> I've finally got a node past the wedge, and there was much rejoicing << Rejoice!
mod6: In regards to the above email section 0x04: To test this, one can simply grab polarbeard's vpatch and sig and drop them into place, then try to press the entire tree. This should hault throwing an error since the actual output hash does not match the ~expected~ output hash.
mats: looks like garza hostname belongs to a vpn
TomServo dusts off Applied Cryptography.
mod6: nice
TomServo: "My favorite algorithm is IDEA. ..yadda .yadda.. Barring extraordinary cryptanlyic news tomorrow, I am betting on IDEA today."
TomServo: fwiw
asciilifeform: TomServo: broken long ago.
asciilifeform: (also has very broad class of weak keys.)
shinohai: mine using only your dick using our unique rot2 algo
BingoBoingo: Look what makes the news on a day is having problems
assbot: Link Rot Rx: 'Amber' Add-on For WordPress and Drupal - Slashdot ... ( )
TomServo: asciilifeform: was it extraordinary news?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Is blowfish known bad?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: not as such
asciilifeform: but the thing is, the ~total~ lack of sound theoretical basic for ~any~ publicly known block cipher, makes the breaking of one entirely 'ordinary' news, when it happens.
gernika: mod6: testing out v99995. I notice that if I attempt to press a non-existant v.patch, there is no error, and it goes ahead and presses *something* (seems to generate the full source in the target dir). Not sure if this is intended behavior or not.
mod6: huh. ok.
mod6: so you ran something like `./ p v foobar non-existing.vpatch` and then something ends up in foobar?
gernika: right
mod6: ok, thanks, i've been working on a fix for a similar thing, actually, which is related to a similar test by ben_vulpes -- but haven't completed it yet.
mod6: I'll keep this in mind as a test case.
gernika: np.
phf: asciilifeform: Ангстрем-3?
mircea_popescu: <TomServo> I've finally got a node past the wedge, and there was much rejoicing << wd.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> second call for least-hated block cipher ??? << fucking the least ugly girl at the party means you'll do a lot of uglies.
mircea_popescu: phf fuck streams.
mod6: so yah, if i can get something figured out for that bug, maybe there will be a beta2 patch.
mod6: but not for at least a week. i need some time to look into that and to let people test the beta patch. i want to get these resolved so we can move on.
mircea_popescu: sounds fine mod6
mod6: thanks for your patience, Mr. P. & all.
mircea_popescu: !up Carli-
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