asciilifeformtherealbitcoinagriculturalsupremacyspykedtrilemaalethepedia
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Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


BingoBoingo: "But when she was questioned by trained specialists three days later “she immediately admitted that the story of the rape was not true”, said the spokesman for the state prosecutor, Martin Steltner. "
BingoBoingo: "TRAINED SPECIALISTS"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77881 @ 0.00056162 = 43.7395 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: ok where do i start...
BingoBoingo: Prolly by making a pot of coffee before you settle down.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391701 << dafuq
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 20:22:51; mod6: http://dpaste.com/1AVK5ZP.txt
asciilifeform: IT BUILDS FINE HERE
asciilifeform: and runs, correctly
asciilifeform: ver string - sets, ver num - likewise.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391701 << this looks like mod6 kept left-over crud from old linker run and it choked on it
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 20:22:51; mod6: http://dpaste.com/1AVK5ZP.txt
asciilifeform: always make -f makefile.unix clean
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391844 << i will move to the bottom of the sea, email will not begin to work again
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 21:48:22; mircea_popescu: hey alf, how about you move out of the us ? hm ? HM ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391858 <<< aaaaand this is where we learn that NOBODY READS THE MOTHERFUCKING LOGZ
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 21:56:45; ben_vulpes: anyways, mod6 you gotta upgrade v.pl to press *all* reachable leaves. that's the problem i'm running into with asciilifeform's recent shiva rebake
asciilifeform: >>>>>> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388421 <<<<<<<
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 15:38:47; ascii_butugychag: i suppose this is when i restate my rage at the idiocy of gnudiff
asciilifeform: ^^^^^ mandatory thread ^^^^^
asciilifeform: tinyscheme genesis is NOT PART OF TRB !!1111111111111
asciilifeform: was never meant to be !
asciilifeform: stop trying to press it!
asciilifeform: it was the only way i could think of to nail down the lineage from virginal tinyscheme to shiva !1
asciilifeform: gnudiff is RETARDED and doesn't let you rename files!
asciilifeform: except by IDIOTICALLY minusing the whole shebang and plussing it back in under new name
asciilifeform: fuckwads
asciilifeform: who thought this was acceptable
mod6: <+asciilifeform> IT BUILDS FINE HERE << huh, maybe i didn't clean?? i'll try again.
asciilifeform: mod6: from your log, seems like it
mod6: thanks for taking a look at that. did you see my replacement patch then?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391899 << i looked in the prb crud when we had this thread, found no such thing, recall
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 22:16:46; mircea_popescu: i originally thought so but research in here shows that no, it's never checked.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12968 @ 0.00055763 = 7.2313 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: mod6: did that one work ?
mod6: mine? should have. is basically the same as yours just instead with 'extern int VERSION;'
mod6: gotta get it to link correctly tho.
asciilifeform: did you make it directly from my 2 patches (old + new) ?
BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392316 << People kept confusing low/high-s malleabillity with the DER encoding business
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 05:16:50; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391899 << i looked in the prb crud when we had this thread, found no such thing, recall
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: aha
BingoBoingo: For MONTHS
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: this kind of confusion can only come from not actually reading the src
asciilifeform: nothing quite compares to the magical power of actually reading things...
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391956 << wai-wut?!1 wtf
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 22:33:31; mircea_popescu: anyone thinking diapers are cheap is not-poor in the us
mod6: <+asciilifeform> did you make it directly from my 2 patches (old + new) ? << no didn't even try that yet. just went straight into integration of both into one. kinda got side tracked with the SoBA and then watched some xfiles. heheh.
asciilifeform: what else is secretly not-cheap, officially, that i had nfi about? ? toiler paper?
BingoBoingo prolly going to pick up dead tree SICP in the next month or so
asciilifeform: mod6: if it was not made from my patches directly, it is possible that you have a mistake.
pete_dushenski: myea, i don't think we go through $1/day of diapers
pete_dushenski: maybe $2. tops.
mod6: yeah, i dunno, i got the same problem again just now.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391977 << see http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392304 plox
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 22:38:37; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: would you confirm that tinyscheme_genesis_fixed.vpatch does *not* depend on shiva parts one and two?
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 05:13:31; asciilifeform: ^^^^^ mandatory thread ^^^^^
mod6: even after a clean.
asciilifeform: mod6: try and actually make it from ~my~ patches.
mod6: yah, will try here now.
asciilifeform: you quite likely have a mistake in there.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391993 << again, phf also plz see mandatory thread.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 22:44:06; phf: so i dropped patches from "[BTC-dev] Tinyscheme Genesis, Cleanup, and Fixes, CORRECTED; -and- Shiva Pedigree Bridge." but i'm still missing something so they are just hanging there separately, http://104.131.72.249/patches/
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1392015 << that one, interestingly, WORKS
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 22:48:49; mircea_popescu: i guess i fucked it up when putting it on trilema ? asciilifeform ^ mind saying what the above link does ?
asciilifeform: ('chromium')
ben_vulpes: yes yes, gnudiff is retarded
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392194 << you know, could always ask me, and get the l3333337 w4r3z
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 03:15:55; ben_vulpes: a hundred and eleven fucking dollars!?
ben_vulpes: ask me how many fuxx i give when trying to wire patches
asciilifeform: don't trade with the enemy, just say no to paying for bits.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: joy of deficit spending here is that i complain about price of bits and find they're free.
ben_vulpes: share a ware?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63950 @ 0.00055752 = 35.6534 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: seeing it yet ?
ben_vulpes: dcc scares me
asciilifeform: then where do you want it
ben_vulpes: a gpggram would be lovely, or a .tgz i can scrape down from your server
asciilifeform: too big
ben_vulpes snaps a laptop
ben_vulpes: thank you for pointing out the inadequacy of everything.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: do please to dcc again
asciilifeform: l0l it was 15 years since i last did this
ben_vulpes: motherfucker.
ben_vulpes: perhaps only ten for me.
ben_vulpes: eh maybe thirtee.
asciilifeform: no go ?
ben_vulpes: i don't think erc actually worx.
mod6: asciilifeform: yeah, i dunno what i screwed up with that integration patch of mine, but yeah, your vpatch fix pressed and compiled fine.
asciilifeform: anyway ben_vulpes and everybody else can have 133333337 w4r3z when they can come up with a place for it to go.
asciilifeform: mod6: cool
mod6: thanks!
asciilifeform: toldya it wurx
mod6: my apologies
asciilifeform: np
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: how big *is* it?
asciilifeform: ~40M
asciilifeform: mod6: you will notice that it works on shiva branch also.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35907 @ 0.00056188 = 20.1754 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: erc complains of :host 0.0.0.199
ben_vulpes: which yes, i'd complain of as well
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66526 @ 0.00056332 = 37.4754 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: Bitcoin version 0.9.99.98
asciilifeform: mod6: wai wut
asciilifeform: counting to what, zero ?
asciilifeform: gonna step through 0.5.3 again, .2, .1 ??
ben_vulpes: !up renart
ben_vulpes: mother shit fucker
mod6: <+asciilifeform> counting to what, zero ? << it did show in the log already when i started with -setvernum=99998
mod6: so far, this is good.
ben_vulpes: am i authed or not
mod6: gonna check getinfo in a sec.
asciilifeform: mod6: try to also understand where the original mistake was.
asciilifeform: (it is educational)
asciilifeform: mine, that is
ben_vulpes: !up renart
mod6: # ps ax | grep bitcoind && LC_ALL=C ./bitcoind -datadir=/mnt/btc-dev/.bitcoin getinfo | grep version
mod6: 22877 pts/1 SLl 0:54 ./bitcoind -datadir=/mnt/btc-dev/.bitcoin -myip=127.0.0.1 -addnode=188.68.240.159 -setverstring=trb -setvernum=99998
mod6: 22900 pts/1 S+ 0:00 grep --colour=auto bitcoind "version" : 99998,
renart: asciilifeform: for lulz, dcc it to me again?
mod6: looks good
asciilifeform: 'no route to host'
mod6: there is supposed to be a line break up here ^ but didn't translate through the copy
mod6: i'll see if i can figure out wtf I did differently tomorrow.
renart: a well
mod6: ok will look again at it tomorrow. thanks ascii, g'night!
asciilifeform: goodnight mod6
asciilifeform bbl.
ben_vulpes: also how is 40M too large for a webserver?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13435 @ 0.00055867 = 7.5057 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46273 @ 0.00056055 = 25.9383 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28831 @ 0.00056578 = 16.312 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44600 @ 0.00056358 = 25.1357 BTC [-] {3}
BingoBoingo: https://i.imgur.com/Xi5uJMF.png
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KkMoJV )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44550 @ 0.0005571 = 24.8188 BTC [-] {4}
BingoBoingo: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/allstar/2016/01/31/john-scott-all-star-game-nashville-goal/79611074/
assbot: John Scott scores twice, named MVP after leading Pacific to All-Star win ... ( http://bit.ly/1KkNm8W )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104100 @ 0.00056602 = 58.9227 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15700 @ 0.00056671 = 8.8973 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: lol even vex has commentary on the dccpisode
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk5Df_lDD38
assbot: The Streets - Stay Positive - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1KkP8al )
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 401 @ 0.0035 = 1.4035 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72700 @ 0.00056661 = 41.1925 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17386 @ 0.00056661 = 9.8511 BTC [-]
danielpbarron: deedbot- http://dpaste.com/0019PDB.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQYRXa )
deedbot-: imported: 9E08524833CB3038FDE385C54C0AFCCFED5CDE14
danielpbarron: ;;later tell felipelalli ^^^ also >> http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/deedbot#synopsis
assbot: irc_bots:deedbot [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1RVey0C )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
danielpbarron: deedbot- http://pastebin.com/raw/Bd3Qg7aW
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQXFTR )
deedbot-: accepted: 1
danielpbarron bows
danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391285 << ok but please bear with me; i think i should stop my current bitcoind, make a backup, and start this one fresh. I'm not really set up for running two at once at the moment.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 18:13:52; mod6: danielpbarron: hey there Sir, wanna update the wiki & test the steps from a newb standpoint when you get a moment? Y^
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 134300 @ 0.00056671 = 76.1092 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: >> Sometimes regular expressions can get messy. That's what she sed. << found on twatter. laughed.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54400 @ 0.00056671 = 30.829 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00056652 = 3.1725 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44300 @ 0.00056621 = 25.0831 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79600 @ 0.00056684 = 45.1205 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100552 @ 0.00056612 = 56.9245 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 138624 @ 0.00056278 = 78.0148 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14550 @ 0.00056323 = 8.195 BTC [+] {2}
punkman: re:deleuze&guattari: Once upon a time I was scrolling through a big pile 1337 w4r3z, and I saw "A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia" and I thought "maybe that'll be interesting". I opened it on my crappy ebook tablet, flipped through some pages. The moment I thought "this shit's unreadable isn't it", the tablet died, never to come back.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 284750 @ 0.00056144 = 159.87 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 130300 @ 0.00056671 = 73.8423 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64200 @ 0.00056339 = 36.1696 BTC [-] {2}
polarbeard: mircea_popescu, asciilifeform: here is the logging patch split up in three: https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/ccf92c5f83753a03370a, https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/38b7835cb5f7863d4547 and https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/621f39b7cf21d736400e
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1nYHJn7 )
assbot: polarbeard_better_log_messages.vpatch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1nYHMiI )
assbot: polarbeard_fix_instance_print.vpatch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1nYHKay )
mircea_popescu: danke, will look.
mircea_popescu: finishing a little earth shatter of my own right now :D
polarbeard: :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39857 @ 0.00056702 = 22.5997 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34843 @ 0.00056711 = 19.7598 BTC [+] {2}
copypaste: kakobrekla: I'd like to make a request if you have a moment. When I get my OTP from assbot, it sends the header `Content-Type: application/json; charset=utf-8` ... This causes my browser to incorrectly interpret GnuPG documents as JSON, so it spews annoying errors which prevent me from just doing Ctrl-A Ctrl-C...to wit, "There was an error parsing the JSON document. The document may not be
copypaste: well-formed." "unexpected character at line 1 column 1 "
kakobrekla: changed to 'text/plain' if that helps
PeterL: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/81b25113-e9e7-485d-995a-b13e790305ae/?raw=true << so I just restarted bitcoind, using -connect to all the trb nodes in the wiki, it looks like only Inciatus is letting me connect, the rest are refusing my connection?
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q6Vh6q )
PeterL: It looks like it is going through the list, trying to connect to each node and repeatedly getting disconnected, should I stop it and restart only connect to the one node which is connected?
mircea_popescu: are you on aws ?
PeterL: no
mircea_popescu: this should probably be debugged.
PeterL: well I am connected to something, not sure which one it is
kakobrekla: you must be getting banned by that banhammer patch
copypaste: kakobrekla: yes, text/plain is perfect. thanks
kakobrekla: k
jurov: http://www.projectnatick.com/ m$ heard alf and going underwater
assbot: Project Natick ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q6WL0L )
jurov: straight from horse's mouth: "With the end of Moore’s Law, the cadence at which servers are refreshed with new and improved hardware in the datacenter is likely to slow significantly."
PeterL: Now I have 3 connections
PeterL: is there a way to list the connections?
mircea_popescu: hey, ~i~ said moore law's dead!
BingoBoingo: Who's racis now? http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/white-officers-slower-to-shoot-black-suspects-new-study-finds/article_b4c9fb58-49eb-5a34-8ab8-d97b7307f667.html
assbot: White officers slower to shoot black suspects, new study finds : News ... ( http://bit.ly/1KltEdb )
BingoBoingo: "But the study also showed that when holding guns in more realistic simulations, the same officers were faster to shoot whites."
BingoBoingo: "The report says that in realistic situations, the officers waited about a quarter of a second longer to shoot armed black men than white — and they fired by mistake on unarmed white men three times more often than on blacks."
mircea_popescu: ;;nethash
gribble: 1064249248.94
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54600 @ 0.00056712 = 30.9648 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes mod6 if teh esteemed foundation'd give an opinion on http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ kthx.
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q70TOa )
polarbeard: PeterL: getpeerinfo@0.7.0, it needs to be backported: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/1006f0707e34f8903f247195dabd86243ae61f05
assbot: RPC: add 'getpeerinfo', returning easy-to-retrieve per-CNode data · bitcoin/bitcoin@1006f07 · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q715gi )
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: is there any reason against that one? I miss it too
mircea_popescu: they'll prolly want to do it in scheme now. but anyway, if you want it for production reasons, go right ahead.
jurov: mod6 ben_vulpes asciilifeform : do I understand right sha512 is hardwired in V? is there a space for sane upgrade path?
mircea_popescu: jurov rebasing.
polarbeard: aha I see, but maybe ascii can trash the jsonrpc part and keep the functionality itself?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 133423 @ 0.00056497 = 75.38 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: polarbeard it won't hurt anything writing a backport patch for it if you feel like it.
mircea_popescu: whether it'll be used or not is unclear, so i wouldn't TELL you to do it, but if you want to do it by all means.
polarbeard: all right
BingoBoingo: polarbeard: But if you could write that funtionality in Scheme, you might get some love for it.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo for the record, the one most important factor in how long they wait to shoot should be and probably is "how weird this shit is".
mircea_popescu: as in they'd prolly shoot aliens even faster. so in this sense, the study's useless without looking at what environment those guys operate in.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo eh it's unclear whether that can be done just yet or not. whole different kettle of soup.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I dunno, they shot Lavoy Finicum pretty fast.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392285 << i should hope these were the same "trained specialists" that started the wholly hallucinated "family abuse" moral panic of the 90s.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 05:04:44; BingoBoingo: "But when she was questioned by trained specialists three days later “she immediately admitted that the story of the rape was not true”, said the spokesman for the state prosecutor, Martin Steltner. "
mircea_popescu: what a grand time for the state that was! for the first time ever it got its way with everyones' children
polarbeard: BingoBoingo: that's a good idea, I'll try after backporting this one
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well it's the german "trained experts" so who knows
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski https://bitbet.us/bet/1198/connor-mcdavid-will-live-up-to-the-hype/#c5602 I believe
assbot: BitBet - Connor McDavid will live up to the hype :: 0.45 B (3%) on Yes, 12.72 B (97%) on No | closed 1 day 14 hours ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q72HH2 )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392316 << i do.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 05:16:50; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391899 << i looked in the prb crud when we had this thread, found no such thing, recall
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392335 << poverty limit. ask the world bank :D
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 05:19:55; pete_dushenski: myea, i don't think we go through $1/day of diapers
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48809 @ 0.00056424 = 27.54 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392451 << it's readable in the sense every other contemporary industrial process is "machineable" or "approachable" or whatever. with heavy equipment, not with bare hands and eyes.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 11:59:31; punkman: re:deleuze&guattari: Once upon a time I was scrolling through a big pile 1337 w4r3z, and I saw "A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia" and I thought "maybe that'll be interesting". I opened it on my crappy ebook tablet, flipped through some pages. The moment I thought "this shit's unreadable isn't it", the tablet died, never to come back.
deedbot-: [Trilema] The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol - http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/
mircea_popescu: polarbeard don't put commas immediately after urls it fucks things up
polarbeard: ok
mircea_popescu: perhaps i'm not understanding something, but where's all the list of fixed returns ?
polarbeard: fixed returns?
mircea_popescu: your original thing had a lot of - return ; + return (hey we fucked up at %d);
mircea_popescu: oh last one nm
phf: jurov: v uses hash as a lookup key, so in that sense algo agnostic. you can mix and match as long as from and to hashes linkup
polarbeard: ok, anyway here is the old for reference: https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/961aa315c69b89d2e613
assbot: polarbeard_logging_sanity.vpatch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1KewosO )
mircea_popescu: polarbeard do you have the tags you use enumerated anywhere ?
polarbeard: enumerated as an actual enum?
polarbeard: they're defined here, https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/38b7835cb5f7863d4547#file-polarbeard_better_log_messages-vpatch-L2029-L2039
assbot: polarbeard_better_log_messages.vpatch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1KlwJtP )
mircea_popescu: omfg what is the purpose of putting clicable line numbers in github if all they do is blink. GIMME AN ANCHOR MOTHERFUCKING IDIOTS
mircea_popescu: wait that works ?
polarbeard: lol :D
mircea_popescu: https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/38b7835cb5f7863d4547-L67
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KlwRcM )
mircea_popescu: omfg how do you get it ?
polarbeard: do they blink? what do you use mosaic? :D
polarbeard: click on first line number, then second, it makes a range
mircea_popescu: not here.
polarbeard: oh sorry, hold shift to make a range
mircea_popescu: anyway, dbenv.set_lg_max(1000000); < wut ?
phf: mircea_popescu: http://104.131.72.249/patches/polarbeard_better_log_messages#selection-1149.0-1189.1
assbot: polarbeard_better_log_messages ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q75zUc )
polarbeard: oh, yep nice catch
mircea_popescu: bless you phf!
mircea_popescu: ok polarbeard if you don't mind we'll use his version it's about 500 times better than github
BingoBoingo: https://twitter.com/amandapeacher/status/694060508953968644
mircea_popescu: phf d oyou want a domain name ? hosting ?
polarbeard: haha
polarbeard: shithub.com
mircea_popescu: sooo...
phf: mircea_popescu: a domain name
mircea_popescu: +#define SERR "ERR "
mircea_popescu: +#define SWAR "WAR "
mircea_popescu: +#define SINF "INF "
mircea_popescu: +
mircea_popescu: +#define SPRC "PRC "
mircea_popescu: +#define SMEM "MEM "
mircea_popescu: +#define SADR "ADR "
mircea_popescu: +#define SBLK "BLK "
mircea_popescu: +#define SNET "NET "
mircea_popescu: +#define SWAL "WAL "
mircea_popescu: +#define SMIN "MIN "
mircea_popescu: any idea what these are ? how they were selected ? etc ?
mircea_popescu: phf lemme see what i have.
phf: mircea_popescu: just point whatever you have to that ip, and i'll fix the settings to get it working
mircea_popescu: you have a ns ?
phf: no
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: you mean how those macro strings are actually used?
mircea_popescu: i dunno if you see this, but the way the flags are set impacts many people downstream.
polarbeard: hows that?
mircea_popescu: because if i want to search my logs ima have to use your flags.
mircea_popescu: and they are MY logs.
polarbeard: propose a change?
mircea_popescu: well we're not there yet, so far just asking how you designed it / how you selected the list etc.
polarbeard: oh, three chars were long enough to identify each label, while being short enough to not add many dead bytes to the log
mircea_popescu: yes but which flags are used for which kind of messages, how we select the kinds, that sorta thing
mircea_popescu: what's your rulebook to know what message goes in which flag ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109991 @ 0.00056288 = 61.9117 BTC [-] {4}
polarbeard: ok, that requires some explanation, you're right
mircea_popescu: it's an important point, must be documented well.
polarbeard: priorities are clear? infos are totally harmless, warns alert about something actually done and errors alert about the impossibility to do something
mircea_popescu: well at this level yes, but we'll see more once i actually go throuygh the list, rulebook in hand.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86569 @ 0.00056138 = 48.5981 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: phf how about btcbase.org ?
polarbeard: ok, PRC is about the process (there is only a few msgs about that one), MEM is the mempool (IO and verification), ADR is the address index, BLK is about the block index (IO and verification), NET is about all the p2p traffic, WAL is about the wallet, MIN is about the miner process
phf: that works
mircea_popescu: now lemme see how the fuck i get this ns'd.
mircea_popescu: phf set up an A record, should do the trick, hopefully.
mircea_popescu: polarbeard i see.
mircea_popescu: and these are prefixed by I W or A for info warn or alert ?
mircea_popescu: waht is "SINF" by this logic ?
polarbeard: SINF -> info, SWAR -> warn, SERR -> err
polarbeard: *error
mircea_popescu: i c!
mircea_popescu: anyway, as a general comment : next time start the whole process by designing this. it's a great spot to start!
polarbeard: yes, I need to get used to document stuff, I'll submit as much as I can to the ml if it passes
BingoBoingo: Another forking Hearnia https://archive.is/4uV4m
assbot: Current Bitcoin XT contains a network splitting bug. Rather than behaving responsibly, the maintainers of BitcoinXT are smearing the developers of Bitcoin Core (whom had nothing to do with their bug). : bitcoinxt ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxDYQC )
mircea_popescu: seems like they hired solidcoin to do their strategy.
mircea_popescu: anyone recall that 2012 brand of lolz ?
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: Nice new trilema article.
mircea_popescu: you can now tell all your sm friends lol.
BingoBoingo: I came in in time to do a pretty fresh forensics on that lol
thestringpuller: The r/btc will eat it up "If we include this change we may get a blocksize increase yay!!!!1111"
BingoBoingo: SolidCoin History: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2013/11/26/cycles-repeat-themselves-mcxnow/
assbot: Cycles Repeat Themselves: McxNow | Bingo Blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxFjH7 )
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo aha!
mircea_popescu: polarbeard aite. ima slog through this, mind you that it's 2k lines will take hours.
mircea_popescu: !up Tasoshi
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: totally understandable, I wanted to split that ones in two steps: first adding labels and then modifying the messages, but that would have ended in having 4k lines :)
mircea_popescu: no it's right as it is.
mircea_popescu: which is why i'm doing it.
mircea_popescu: polarbeard http://104.131.72.249/patches/polarbeard_better_log_messages#selection-8295.32-8295.60 < plox no ' in loglines so people don't have to escape the shit out of parsing.
assbot: polarbeard_better_log_messages ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxGpTs )
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag
thestringpuller: how's the labor camp?
mircea_popescu: phf http://www.intodns.com/btcbase.org and btw, did i say how much i like the blue and red and shit ?
assbot: intoDNS: btcbase.org - check DNS server and mail server health ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxGMNP )
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: mmm for me the ranges in that site don't work, which line is it?
mircea_popescu: oh.
mircea_popescu: + printf(SERR SBLK "can't create database file %s\n", strFileRes.c_str());
Tasoshi: So Satoshi's great test to determine whether bitcoin can operate through decentralised consensus is now on. mircea_popescu, I have been looking at some old posts and it seemed that in 2013 you agreed with Satoshi and his vision. What exactly did you learn in 2013 to turn yourself against Satoshi's vision itself?
mircea_popescu: can you be specific ?
Tasoshi: I am sure you know your own history better than I
mircea_popescu: fine, if you must. "meanwhile i read the code".
mircea_popescu: what fucking vision.
punkman: mircea_popescu: re:sha3-digest, here's one idea, asic miners can get around recalculating the digest on every hash by changing the merkle-root/timestamp instead of the nonce
Tasoshi: to scale on chain so as to give the security and privacy of onchain transactions to all
mircea_popescu: punkman quite, yes. this is deliberate.
mircea_popescu: won't be too easy tho, asic needs EVEN MORE ram that way.
mircea_popescu: (miners currently use this incidentally, to some degree)
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: Seriously give the Bitcoin code a read. Version 0.3.21, 0.5.4, 0.7.2, and 0.8 are all essential reading
punkman: why even more ram?
thestringpuller: 0.8 is so crufty
Tasoshi: I am enquiring what exactly changed your opinion in 2013?
Tasoshi: is one propaganta video sufficient to turn you all against the genius of satoshi?
BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: Which is why It's on the reading list
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392455 << still monstrous
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 13:23:16; polarbeard: mircea_popescu, asciilifeform: here is the logging patch split up in three: https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/ccf92c5f83753a03370a, https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/38b7835cb5f7863d4547 and https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/621f39b7cf21d736400e
BingoBoingo: Oh MP watched a video without penises?
thestringpuller: yup. look at what the power rangers have done!
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag yes but now necessarily monstruous
thestringpuller: !gettrust Tasoshi
assbot: Tasoshi is not registered in WoT.
mircea_popescu: polarbeard incidentally, did you leave any nude returns ?
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392467 << holy shit, incitatus has been running with a full disk and 0 maintenance for months
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 13:48:58; PeterL: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/81b25113-e9e7-485d-995a-b13e790305ae/?raw=true << so I just restarted bitcoind, using -connect to all the trb nodes in the wiki, it looks like only Inciatus is letting me connect, the rest are refusing my connection?
mircea_popescu: full disk is best disk!
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: i disagree that the mega-turd that touches 10,000 lines is justified.
Tasoshi: I mean, it is true isn't it mircea_popescu that you agreed with onchain scaling in 2013? But anyway looks like you guys are busy so I'll leave you to it.
mircea_popescu: dude the fucking returns have to be fixed.
mircea_popescu: there's no way around this. what would you do ?
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392477 << obvious-idea is obvious!1111
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 13:58:29; jurov: http://www.projectnatick.com/ m$ heard alf and going underwater
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: what returns
mircea_popescu: - return error("BANNED peer issuing unknown inv type.");
mircea_popescu: for instance.
ascii_butugychag: what is wrong with these ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75572 @ 0.00056712 = 42.8584 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: it doesn't say WHO was banned
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392496 << the sane upgrade path is TO THERMONUKE GNUDIFF and have turing-complete operation set!
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 14:26:12; jurov: mod6 ben_vulpes asciilifeform : do I understand right sha512 is hardwired in V? is there a space for sane upgrade path?
mircea_popescu: and flags would be nice
Tasoshi: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140233.msg1503470#msg1503470
assbot: The MAX_BLOCK_SIZE fork ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxIuyL )
Tasoshi: what polluted your mind?
PeterL: ascii_butugychag I think I was wrong, it is not inciatus to which I connected, looks like Dulap?
mircea_popescu: Tasoshi looky, im sure you have nice intentions et all, but intentions don't matter. put some actual sweat into it. answer the original question, answer it well rather than flailing around.
Tasoshi: what question
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: that'd make more sense, dulap is my flagship
Tasoshi: Why do you not tell me and all what corrupted your mind to make you turn against the genius of satoshi?
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392518 << the 'poverty limit' is a crock of shit, many of the supposedly-'poor' live rent-free
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 14:34:29; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392335 << poverty limit. ask the world bank :D
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: Didn't you see there's a way to get MP to buy into a hard fork? http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q70TOa )
Tasoshi: You've been deceived by all sorts of scaremongering about abstract concept such as centralised decentralised whatever
Tasoshi: if you do not think 51% will be honest, then sell your bitcoins.....
PeterL: tasoshi, who are you?
thestringpuller: Tasoshi: you are flailing about in a seizure like manner.
Tasoshi: if you do, then why should you restrict access to all?
Tasoshi: and turn this into a super centralised kyc aml settlement nonsense
Tasoshi: and all it took is 1 video?
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: What video
thestringpuller: there will always be mr. spams
Tasoshi: The propaganda video which is probably the only thing that convinced mr mircea_popescu
PeterL: mircea_popescu watched a video?
mircea_popescu: lmao what!
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: You gotta specify the video
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22000 @ 0.00056712 = 12.4766 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: Is this the video? http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ph558c08d45a454
assbot: mommy handjob is step son - Pornhub.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxKmri )
Tasoshi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZp7UGgBR0I&feature=youtu.be
assbot: Why the blocksize limit keeps Bitcoin free and decentralized - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxKqHk )
Tasoshi: it is amazing how professional that video is for 2013
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
Tasoshi: as you all remember, all videos about bitcoin were super amateur back then
Tasoshi: except for this one.....
Tasoshi: and you all fell for it
jurov: Tasoshi nonsense. I personally was convinced by stuff like this: https://bitbet.us/bet/302/bitcoin-standardized-protocol-approved-this-summer/
assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin Standardized Protocol Approved this Summer :: 2.7 B (24%) on Yes, 8.72 B (76%) on No | closed 2 years 5 months ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxKBCL )
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: My browser doesn't play yourtube videos
jurov: i.e. devteam just rushing to enhance and extend without putting things on stable footing
jurov: and you know what comes after embrace and extend
mircea_popescu: polarbeard mno, this is no good, it doesn;t solve the naked return problem. for instance (all from bitcoinrpc.cpp) : return error; at line 44 ; return "bitcoin server stopping"; line 162 sorta thing.
Tasoshi: what I find surprising is that the propaganda video has any persuasive power when it visually shows its settlement system as being very centralised - that is many people connecting to 1 hub/bank...
mircea_popescu: not to mention assorted garbage like throw runtime_error()
mircea_popescu: and my god, the return ret; stuff already
mircea_popescu: !down Tasoshi
mircea_popescu: they ran out of reddit or something ?
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: what's your objection to throw runtime_error ?
BingoBoingo: Prolly ran out of reddit
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag i didn't object to it in principle, but it's also not covered by the new logging model.
mircea_popescu: i do object to return ret; in principle.
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: I didn't know it was expected to solve it, but ok, I see this patch is consuming too much time from everybody...
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: what new logging model
mircea_popescu: polarbeard i dunno that it was expected to either. prolly isn't, really. just, bitcoin code is too layered, random and messy.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag lemme summarize this for you. bitcoin eminently keeps shitty logs. a new guy came in and undertood the monstrous task of trying to fix that.
mircea_popescu: this has on one side exposed a lot of the underlying grime, and on the other side is bugging your centralist mind because you don't want to read thousands of lines of patchwork.
polarbeard: to be honest, I see this thing going forward if I don't have to generate a new patch again
mircea_popescu: nevertheless : the grime's still there, and bitcoin would do a lot better with a better logging system
ascii_butugychag: the ~original~ grime is only cleanable at tremendous cost.
polarbeard: so if I can add another patch on top of these I will keep working on it but I'm tired of rediffing...
ascii_butugychag: and really oughta be lisped.
mircea_popescu: polarbeard aha.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag yeah well.
ascii_butugychag: shiva hooks on everything, and programmable log mechanism in ~that~.
mircea_popescu: understand : you can't prevent people from working nor should you try.
ascii_butugychag: i in particular can't prevent anybody from doing anything.
ascii_butugychag: but will pronounce - 'this is braindamaged and i will not sign.'
ascii_butugychag: fwiw.
ascii_butugychag: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu - can, obviously, do what they like.
mircea_popescu: well the v is well designed to be forgiving and helpful.
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, i'm taking the time from my days of orgies and icecream to read this thing.
ascii_butugychag: briefly, unrelatedly, mircea_popescu 'the keccak function takes unlimited input' << what ?!
phf: can imagine future where ascii big trb senator is forced by opposition forces to sign, "i will not siiiign"
mircea_popescu: hehehe. thanks god we are better than that stupid shit.
mircea_popescu: "FOR SIIIIGNLET!!!!"
ascii_butugychag: l0l!z
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag it's my recollection you can apply it on an endless pile of data, neh ?
ascii_butugychag: also keccak has same problem as predecessor, silicon will be baked, we get mining cartels again.
mircea_popescu: you gotta read carefully.
mircea_popescu: CAREFULLY.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: you can apply ~any~ hash to endless pile
ascii_butugychag goes, reads, again
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: i still don't grasp the 'technological reasons' from footnote v
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag is asic going to store the whole chain ?
ascii_butugychag: it can be in a drive.
mircea_popescu: can that drive seek 300k specific bytes on demand ?
mircea_popescu: if you have a drive that seeks and also updates, why not have a cpu ?
mircea_popescu: the only reason asics exist is because sha256 you can do by hand on paper.
ascii_butugychag: i also vaguely recall ^this aspect being appealing to mircea_popescu ?
ascii_butugychag: (slavecoin!)
mircea_popescu: yes there's some economy of scale to be had with well designed flash banks, made each the size of a block etc.
mircea_popescu: but that also means block size gets BAKED IN SILICONE
mircea_popescu: so whatever new value we agree upon, it's fixed.
ascii_butugychag: might bring exotical like holo storage out of the circus and into actual production
ascii_butugychag: *exotica
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: obviously there's no insurance against future technology.
punkman: why not 1tb of ram?
ascii_butugychag: and how is block size any more fixed in the proposed scheme than in the old ?
mircea_popescu: but on the basis of what we currently known, a strict coupling there (4 or less bits of shift) is untractable
ascii_butugychag: in either case, if changed - fork
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag different incentives. as it is now, changing the size doesn't automatically brick all miners.
ascii_butugychag: and i can easily go buy 1tb of ram whenever, as can anybody
mircea_popescu: this is an oversight. they want a change, fine, but they must fully commit to it.
mircea_popescu: 1tb of ram will be overwhelmed by 20mb blocks in a few years.
mircea_popescu: moreover, you still need all the accesses.
mircea_popescu: the ~only way to do this in silicone is to make blocksized banks and line them up.
mircea_popescu: this will be done eventually, as the article says. but not without its costs.
punkman: mutating the merkle root just needs some sha256 hashing though
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: but is also finite.
punkman: is not
mircea_popescu: how do you mean ?
ascii_butugychag: 20mb blocks?!
punkman: you just put the nonce in coinbase, isn't it equivalent to mutating the actual nonce?
ascii_butugychag: and what is so great about miners == nodes ?
jurov: deedbot-: http://explo.yt/public/fmpif_201601.txt.asc
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxQAXW )
ascii_butugychag: recipe for remaking swift ?
deedbot-: accepted: 1
mircea_popescu: punkman yes, up until people start rejecting nonstandard blocks.
ascii_butugychag: where there are a dozen nodes, forever.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag what do you mean ?
punkman: you can encode that nonce in standard coinbase outputs
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: centralization
mircea_popescu: punkman yes, but costs money and takes time.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag can you be explicit for crying out loud.
ascii_butugychag: right now we have gangrene in one leg. what is an improvement about having ~two~ ?
mircea_popescu: what's a word gonna do.
punkman: mircea_popescu: orders of magnitude cheaper than recalculating nonce+digest
ascii_butugychag: requiring elaborate hardware to mine adds to, rather than takes away from, centralization.
jurov: trinque: deedbot.org says "Last updated 2016-01-27"
ascii_butugychag: and the ssd cartel is cackling as we speak, reading this
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag this is a general principle that works generally.
ascii_butugychag: suddenly ssd is plutonium.
ascii_butugychag: fuck that
mircea_popescu: ssd is A LOT easier to make than fucking asics.
ascii_butugychag: mno.
ascii_butugychag: this is demonstrably untrue.
ascii_butugychag: 'btc asic' is really 1980s-level vlsi.
mircea_popescu: punkman not really. for one thing, now it's finite.
mircea_popescu: that's no demonstration of anything.
ascii_butugychag: and south kr, usg muppet, owns ~100% of ssd fabrication.
ascii_butugychag: thinkaboutit
ascii_butugychag: they have a stranglehold
mircea_popescu: this is like saying russia makes all mop buckets and so they have a stranglehold.
mircea_popescu: and ukrainian whores have a stranglehold on german streetwalking.
mircea_popescu: yeah, i'm sure they do. why ?
ascii_butugychag: realize that cn would profit tremendously from making own ssd
ascii_butugychag: and still has not.
mircea_popescu: because it's the easiest thing to do and they're entry level.
ascii_butugychag: because it is not a fucking mop bucket
mircea_popescu: heh.
ascii_butugychag: it is something that ONE country has any kind of reasonable tooling to make.
trinque: jurov: btcd is choking on the transaction representing felipelalli's deed; I've been looking at it
mircea_popescu: anyway. this adds the "need chinese foundries" to "need sk sdd" for maximal ,ulz.
trinque: perhaps it is a matter of the key generated being invalid, though I would've expected the bits I'm using for pubkey/address generation to barf at that, and didn't
mircea_popescu: trinque maybe it's high s :D
trinque: meanwhile the trb node is now at 383k, thanks to new SSD
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: why not, while you're at it, premine 100% of the coins and just hand them to seoul.
ascii_butugychag: same effect.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag anyway, the only thign this does is that if implemented, you could alter dulap code slightly and produce usable digest blocks for sale to pay for the node.
ascii_butugychag: for sale to whom ?
mircea_popescu: miners.
ascii_butugychag: who wants this, for what ?
mircea_popescu: miners need to know that nonces x to x' are ok to mine with digest Z
mircea_popescu: and you have a cpu and a hdd, and can just produce this information.
ascii_butugychag: i think i have a stronger chance of flying to mircea_popescu's house on a glider powered by my own farts, than for this to so much as budge the schelling point from bitcoin by so much as a nanometre.
mircea_popescu: and it'll be way the fuck cheaper for them to buy it from you than for them to bake a cpu and hdd into the 80s era vlsi.
ascii_butugychag: why would anyone value this, for anything ?
mircea_popescu: for the obvious reason.
mircea_popescu: it heals the node-miner breach.
ascii_butugychag: i get that miners without nodes are retarded, but that is easily fixed just by requiring whole-block hash in the nonce rather than the idiot header system
ascii_butugychag: and nukes pools, at the same time
mircea_popescu: (they way this is likely going to be asic'd is by keeping rainbow tables, and just adding octets. nevertheless - this STILL requires the whole chain be preserved. even if in a diff format)
ascii_butugychag: what i don't get is what desirable thing the workfunction change accomplishes
mircea_popescu: how is this a workfunction change ?
ascii_butugychag: attempt at 'i/o-hard' workfunction
mircea_popescu: i mean. how is this more or different of a workfunction change.
mircea_popescu: nah, it's just making sure people actually have the chain. all of it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38023 @ 0.00056506 = 21.4853 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_butugychag: that much i can see, is a desirable thing
punkman: would you have to recalculate the digest to verify any incoming blocks as a node?
deedbot-: [Qntra] Ether Huffing Reddit Spam Persists - http://qntra.net/2016/02/ether-huffing-reddit-spam-persists/
mircea_popescu: punkman probably. unless you keep a table of historical chain by nonces.
mircea_popescu: with an unshifted nonce, this is ~impossible, of course, you're not keeping maxint times 200kb+ entries.
BingoBoingo: punkman: Why haven't you submitted a writeup on the Liberty Reserve thing yet?
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag anyway, if the nice folks of whatever wish to change bitcoin more in the sense of, full block hash not headers, i wouldn't automatically reject it. i described a point which must be included, but i also said its details are open to discussion.
mircea_popescu: as long as that delivers this, i see no problem.
punkman: BingoBoingo: dunno, wasn't that interesting in retrospect
ascii_butugychag: i'm not convinced that it is possible for mircea_popescu and the secret cabal of the smallint other mircea_popescus to actually get off the bitcoin bus without perma-crashing the universe
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm not the one proposing change.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77400 @ 0.00056428 = 43.6753 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: the observation that "you can't have any change until you clean up your room" shouldn't really be all that controversial.
punkman: mircea_popescu: what is a shifted nonce?
mircea_popescu: adolescentine fits re "but bucket of water could cause flood and rubbing things together starts fires so i shouldn't have to sweep" notwithstanding.
ascii_butugychag: and 'cleaned room' really means 0 cpp.
ascii_butugychag: this, i also have trouble seeing how it could be controversial.
mircea_popescu: punkman http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#selection-277.38-277.91
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1m8jMbl )
mircea_popescu: does the selection work for you ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag i don't. nobody has learned anything else since 30 years ago.
adlai: punkman: right-shifting the nonce bits by N to make the hashed data update every 2^N blocks
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: you know full well that this is false.
mircea_popescu: yes, but you also know what i mean.
ascii_butugychag: cpp is braindamaged and is the reason why winblows is what it is.
ascii_butugychag: c is braindamaged and is the reason unix is braindamaged.
ascii_butugychag: see 1,001 old threadz...
adlai: ascii_butugychag: what did you mean by "requiring whole-block hash in the nonce"?
ascii_butugychag: at the root of both, is the fact that anything produced by 'coderz' is braindamaged.
ascii_butugychag: adlai: it means no pools. ever.
ascii_butugychag: anyone who mines has a full change of catching a block.
ascii_butugychag: *chance
ascii_butugychag: of
mircea_popescu: man you're being very unhelpful here.
mircea_popescu: wouldja simmer down and speak explicitly ? these are the logs!
mircea_popescu: they last forever!
adlai: i didn't ask what the implications are, or why, i'm asking what exactly your proposal is, implementation-wise
ascii_butugychag: adlai: are you familiar with how mining presently works ?
ascii_butugychag: and why pools are possible ?
adlai has not build his own ASICs
adlai: yes.
mircea_popescu: still nhot explicit.
mircea_popescu: "do you know that currently, all a miner needs is to know the header of the previous block to mine" "yes"
punkman: not the previous block
mircea_popescu: the wunderbar advantages of being explicit! others have something to talk to!
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: ok i see what mircea_popescu meant
adlai: i just want to understand what ascii_butugychag suggested there, instead of each block header including the previous header's hash. i probably got thrown off by the word "nonce" leaking in there
ascii_butugychag: !s non-outsourceable
assbot: 6 results for 'non-outsourceable' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=non-outsourceable
ascii_butugychag: ^ there is more than one way of accomplishing this effect
mircea_popescu: see, i suspect ascii_butugychag this is the major contradiction here. your idea of safety is to make it non-outsourceable, but i suspect it'd be both better and safer to make it FAIRLY outsourceable.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85750 @ 0.00056712 = 48.6305 BTC [+]
ascii_butugychag: why?
mircea_popescu: currently the problem appears to be "it being outsourceable", but really, the problem is that only blind outsourcing can be done.
mircea_popescu: why. because that's how the whole world was built. and how it works when it works.
ascii_butugychag: pools full of sheeple who can be steered, turned on a dime, are a Bad Thing
punkman: ascii_butugychag: did you figure out how to "non-outsourceable"?
BingoBoingo: <punkman> BingoBoingo: dunno, wasn't that interesting in retrospect << As a general rule cases become far less interesting when pleas happen
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag yes but the solution is not to kill all the sheep.
mircea_popescu: make a fair environment for them. if they die, fine.
ascii_butugychag: why not ?
mircea_popescu: cuz cheaper plus you get to date the hottest sheeps.
ascii_butugychag: the more i think about it, the more it seems to me that mining is a catastrophic bug per se
mircea_popescu: yes. but to quote a great man,
mircea_popescu: so is the carnot cycle.
ascii_butugychag: introduces exactly the wrong incentives, and empowers the folks you least want in the driver's seat
ascii_butugychag: it remains to be shown that, like carnot cycle, mining cannot be escaped from.
mircea_popescu: fortunate that miners aren't in the driver's seat
mircea_popescu: anyway. heaven is built atop hell also. been doing fine.
mircea_popescu: i have no idea who makes their gaskets tho.
ascii_butugychag: buna.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00056138 = 11.2276 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19161 @ 0.00056123 = 10.7537 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49679 @ 0.00056064 = 27.852 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74000 @ 0.00056712 = 41.9669 BTC [+]
funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392909 <-- afaik the only ways are 1) require coinbase receiver's signature in block header 2) remove coinbase from PoW hashed header
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 16:37:42; punkman: ascii_butugychag: did you figure out how to "non-outsourceable"?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35959 @ 0.00056712 = 20.3931 BTC [+] {2}
funkenstein_: number 2 being DOA of course :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84191 @ 0.00056761 = 47.7877 BTC [+] {4}
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52050 @ 0.00056258 = 29.2823 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81826 @ 0.00056718 = 46.4101 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: nifty altcoin
ben_vulpes: latest and greatest in anti-drone technology: https://twitter.com/CostaSamaras/status/694204062695342080
ascii_butugychag: the measures against toy choppers is 100% 'majesty of the might of the state' crapolade theatre
shinohai: !up ascii_butugychag
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ <-- afaik the only ways are 1) require coinbase receiver's signature in block header << this is rank nonsense. i'm not signing to receive bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: yes usg loves to present "fixes" of this nature. the odds of them making it in are about the same as the odds of obama being smart.
ascii_butugychag: wouldn't it be a sign from a fresh address at any rate ?
ascii_butugychag: how would this help hitler ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85164 @ 0.00056197 = 47.8596 BTC [-] {4}
shinohai: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/ce2a03a459cc8bac45c8c8c09ab97ef441bdc089 <<< this will end well
assbot: Switch to Fortuna-based PRNG · sipa/bitcoin@ce2a03a · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1So1ly2 )
mircea_popescu: o brother.
mircea_popescu: so blockstream really is running out of cash huh.
ascii_butugychag: and holy shit are their patches massive
mircea_popescu: +/** Add entropy to the pool directly. Use this for seeding or on-demand entropy. */
mircea_popescu: my fave part.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag you've lived a sheltered lyf alfie :D
ascii_butugychag: wut
jurov: btw kto si chce zarobit bitcenty hranim: http://www.dianacoman.com/2016/01/28/foxys-musings-on-click-slaves-vs-apprentices-and-their-choices/
assbot: Foxy’s Musings on Click-Slaves vs Apprentices and Their Choices in Ossasepia ... ( http://bit.ly/1PMI2aK )
jurov: eulora je trochu ako randomizovany eve online :D
ascii_butugychag: in other nyooz, turns out that golden-age opterons (just the chip) can be had for their weight in mere gold on 'ebay'
ascii_butugychag: by the crate.
ascii_butugychag: (anyone other than me cares?)
mircea_popescu: "all 1 comments - sorted by: best there doesn't seem to be anything here" << lol reddit.
jurov: ups wrong chan :D
mircea_popescu: jurov i could read that!
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag ~100 or so no ?
ascii_butugychag: aha same
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: and below
ascii_butugychag: depending on grade
mircea_popescu: yea
mircea_popescu: kinda what they always cost, in nominal terms
mircea_popescu: course inflation...
kakobrekla: which are the golde age ones according to alf?
ascii_butugychag: kakobrekla: pre-usgtronic-alwayson slave core
ascii_butugychag: through late 2011 or so.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: they sold for $2-3K usd new
mircea_popescu: aha
ascii_butugychag: so what means '100 is what they always cost' ?
ascii_butugychag: to produce ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67940 @ 0.00056628 = 38.4731 BTC [+]
mod6: !up ascii_butugychag
mod6: hey ascii_butugychag, so i figured out what my dumbass did yesterday. somehow, when looking at your fix patch - I missed the portion where you changed main.cpp altogether.
mod6: probably was just going to fast.
mod6: anyway, i created a new patch for PVS and did a regrind on malleus (since this one depends on main.cpp)
mod6: compiled just fine, just kicked it off for a quick test...
mod6: # ps aux | grep bitcoind && LC_ALL=C ./bitcoind -datadir=/mnt/btc-dev/.bitcoin getinfo | grep version
mod6: root 31936 32.1 37.8 1741912 1453164 pts/7 SLl 19:01 0:55 ./bitcoind -datadir=/mnt/btc-dev/.bitcoin -myip=127.0.0.1 -addnode=188.68.240.159 -setverstring=trb -setvernum=99998 -lows
mod6: root 31948 0.0 0.0 8924 708 pts/7 S+ 19:04 0:00 grep --colour=auto bitcoind
mod6: "version" : 99998,
mod6: so that looks like its doing the right thing, and the log was updated as well.
phf: ok, so http://btcbase.org/patches/
assbot: trb ... ( http://bit.ly/1Km0rix )
phf: mircea_popescu: ^
phf: which kind of broke the previous ip only links, i might fix that at some point
polarbeard: neato
phf: there's a bug of some sort, pretty sure your polarbeard_better_log_messages shouldn't press from asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected, i'll look into it tonight
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66600 @ 0.00056126 = 37.3799 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: ascii_butugychag: take a look at these and let me know what you think, plz: http://dpaste.com/0P9PR2S.txt && http://dpaste.com/2SV1RKB.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Km0M4F )
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Km0NFT )
polarbeard: I think it's correct though, 565faf3ef371f5e2178ae30c45b08b93415eeb92263486e68f2ac2e8f4c7900056e628804bf5c0707a90be946e0aeaebfcd0a391aab40de2e5d56e6bcbdccb1e bitcoin/src/db.cpp
mod6: !up ascii_butugychag
mod6: i must be stale ascii_butugychag
mod6: someone up ascii_butugychag
mod6: plzkthx
trinque: !up ascii_butugychag
mod6: thanks trinque
trinque: yw
phf: polarbeard: it's not correct, since the graph is supposed to only show transitions, rather then descendants/antecedents. in this case polarbeard_better_log_messages touches util.h and util.cpp that are modified in polarbeard_remove_shrink_debug_file
ascii_butugychag: ty trinque. mod6: it looks fine
ascii_butugychag: i still think regrinds are a thing to be avoided whenever possible, but whatever
phf: in other words there might be an antecedent, but there's also other hunks in that file that should've prevented the linkage
ascii_butugychag: phf: your viewer is mighty spiffy, it is exactly what i wanted to make in september (and never had time)
ascii_butugychag: if it were given a place to pump in patches, we could finally give turdatron a proper burial
mod6: ascii_butugychag: one fix every now and then isn't horrible or anything, id just hate to see the situation (like at usg-like job) where people create a turd, create a PR, and then have to keep chainging the PR until "ready"
mod6: and a similar situation in V would be like 69 patches to patch the original patch.
ascii_butugychag: mod6: i found myself blowing the very tiny time budget i had, on regrinding
ascii_butugychag: and imho it is quite unnecessary
ascii_butugychag: and now, e.g., shiva is hosed, imho needlessly, and will have to be reground
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82200 @ 0.00056125 = 46.1348 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_butugychag: instead of my being able to add something useful to it
polarbeard: phf: I don't follow, db.cpp is what generates that relationship
ascii_butugychag: it is my considered judgement that maintaining the illusion of 'we got it right the first time' is a pointless thing.
phf: ascii_butugychag: thanks!
phf: polarbeard: you can't press polarbeard_better_log_messages directly on top of asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected period. so the ~transition~ makes no sense
phf: there needs to be some patches in between
polarbeard: you can press the corresponding hunks, the graph is showing that
ascii_butugychag: ;;later tell mircea_popescu in what sense is adoptinc keccak a rejection of usg standards? it was actually adopted as sha3...
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ascii_butugychag: *adopting
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87439 @ 0.00056085 = 49.0402 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_butugychag: oh, hm, adopted but mutilated ?
ascii_butugychag: http://www.lshift.net/blog/2013/10/01/why-i-support-the-us-government-making-a-cryptography-standard-weaker << vintage lulz
assbot: LShift - Why I support the US Government making a cryptography standard weaker ... ( http://bit.ly/1Km3M0U )
ascii_butugychag: ServerMode/#bitcoin-assets [+v ben_vulpes] by adams.freenode.net << wat?!
trinque: !up ascii_butugychag
trinque: jurov: I got it to squirt your txn earlier, after finding where my db lost track of the blockchain. site will update when btcd catches up, in roughly 90blks
trinque: still seeing something that knocks btcd into a stuck state
trinque: trb node is at 384k; I will be switching to that with anti-heathen command patch very soon
trinque: the same node was at 350k before I had the SSD installed, so we're gaining ground quickly.
ascii_butugychag: ;;later tell mircea_popescu your scheme (could call it... nodecoin?) finally clicked in my head. at last, an end to the cn pond scum !!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21306 @ 0.00056683 = 12.0769 BTC [+] {3}
thestringpuller: trinque: SSD speeds up block checking? I found I/O is very heavy with -verifyall
trinque: the SSD has *massively* sped up the process, which doesn't surprise me
trinque: and yeah, running with -verifyall
thestringpuller: yea. System is at like 70% disk load when verifying blocks on sync.
thestringpuller: Nuking the checkpoints is necessary tho.
ascii_butugychag: imho spinning rust is a losing proposition for any node.
hdbuck: hello
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: Not all of us are rich like you and can afford toys :P
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: l0l
ascii_butugychag: what, can't afford to pay 2009 price per TB ?
thestringpuller: When I get promoted to plutonimum mine from coal mine, maybe I'll buy SSDs.
ascii_butugychag: did you not own a disk in '09 ?
trinque: pff I'm paying 25/mo for a colo'd server with SSD
trinque: old amd box
thestringpuller: I upgrade computers slowly unless for vidya gamez.
ascii_butugychag: hey i'm running a machine circa '07
ascii_butugychag: about to upgrade cpus for the 1st time, with.... circa-'09 ones
thestringpuller: My most powerful box runs i5 a 1.5 TB array. Best thing in the box is a 960 GTX
thestringpuller: I've upgraded the GPU twice.
thestringpuller: Stuck an extra stick of RAM in it based on notion from friend during last upgrade. more of "here is extra stick I have lying around" "oh cool"
hdbuck: qntrable? >> Kaspersky / Interpol fun: http://www.coinfox.info/news/persons/1733-kaspersky-lab-researcher-creates-virus-that-can-spread-through-the-blockchain
assbot: Kaspersky Lab researcher creates virus that can spread through the blockchain | Coinfox ... ( http://bit.ly/1Km6tQd )
thestringpuller: So no, I don't buy storage often. I usually try to buy enough for 5 years at a time.
ascii_butugychag: hdbuck: idiocy, beneath contempt
hdbuck: alright
ascii_butugychag: srsly think about it for 5 minutes.
hdbuck: just was quite amused by the latest Kaspersky Interpol Forbes combo virus
ascii_butugychag: so i put the string 'rm -rf /' in the blockchain, snore
ascii_butugychag: if your box pipes it to bash and executes, that is a problem with you, not 'blockchain'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 112328 @ 0.00056738 = 63.7327 BTC [+] {4}
ascii_butugychag: and if kaspersky really did sign off on this cheap p.t.barnumism, it really must be spent, for good.
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: Got into argument with netsec team leader at work.
thestringpuller: told him of cardano, and was like "well how are you going to trust cardano", to which I replied with the parable of soldier maintaining own AK-47
thestringpuller: and for some reason didn't understand...
ascii_butugychag: next time try & have the argument with a literate man, who can grasp how, e.g., flashlight works
ascii_butugychag: having it with somebody who understands nothing of how his civilization is put together, to whom flashlight, pc, boeing, are equally magical - is a snore.
thestringpuller: yes, but these people get put in charge of sekuriteee and it makes me wonder "how?"
thestringpuller: "Do you not understand how a web of trust functions, or why?"
thestringpuller: Isn't this fundamental to achieving some sort of ~actual~ security?
ascii_butugychag: the trick here is that the proposition that you could actually understand a device that you own, is a hard sell to a great many folks
thestringpuller: those folks usually would accidentally drink rat poison if it was "accidentally" labeled wine
thestringpuller: since they don't like to read.
ascii_butugychag: and folks who cannot, or will not, attempt said understanding, will have to find themselves a priest, yes.
thestringpuller: trust the priest until he diddles your son during sunday school?
ascii_butugychag: aha.
shinohai: ^
ascii_butugychag: let's put it this way, they have priests already, and the latter are spinning the flock on their cocks like propellers.
ascii_butugychag: and ~nobody seems to mind.
thestringpuller: reminds of allegory of the cave. if all you know is being priest cock, why would you think something else exist.
thestringpuller: being on*
shinohai: !up ascii_butugychag
thestringpuller: !up ascii_butugychag
thestringpuller: the rule of thumb "fits in head" helps with the notion of owning device which when understood could "fit in head".
thestringpuller: problem arises when people can barely fit 3 bits in head before wandering off.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41889 @ 0.00056892 = 23.8315 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 129400 @ 0.00056893 = 73.6195 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: Why Reddit values Obese fee-fees http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2016/obesity-diabetes-in-mom-increases-risk-of-autism-in-child.html
adlai: !v assbot:adlai.rate.psztorc.1:8fcb37e60bcff978a15dfbf1e566dc2508a68b74e12acec77bf899a37089e7cc
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for psztorc with note: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2016-02-01/?msg=59154044&page=4
BingoBoingo: !up trippysalmon
deedbot-: [Qntra] Popescu Offers Condition For Accepting Future Hard Forks - http://qntra.net/2016/02/popescu-offers-condition-for-accepting-future-hard-forks/
BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/43opc7/popescu_proposes_healing_the_minernode_division/
assbot: Popescu Proposes Healing the Miner/Node division : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1PN45OD )
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: ' pledging to sink any hard fork proposal without making these changes' --> ... 'that does not include these changes' ?
BingoBoingo: ascii_butugychag: ty, fxd
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56600 @ 0.00056893 = 32.2014 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 131081 @ 0.00056878 = 74.5563 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: !up schmidty
schmidty: good to be here. still considering myself in purgatory given my lack of homework over the logs. i hope to some day join the ranks, still trying to frame it all up in my mind.
mats: get a cloak.
schmidty: has anyone ever aggregated the viewpoints here into a sort of dogma or similar for the new followers?
PeterL: do we still have a ddosser on newbs/uncloaked?
BingoBoingo: !up AaronvanW
thestringpuller: //\/
jurov upgrading shit to win10, near the end it shows big banner "All your files are exactly where you left them".
ascii_butugychag: wai wat
jurov: O.o
mircea_popescu: ahahah
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag note that it's not my scheme not a coin nor anything. it's just a minimum bar.
ascii_butugychag: jurov watcha doin' with winblowz?
jurov: compiling eulora client?
ascii_butugychag: jurov: ah!
PeterL: schmidty there is the wiki, wiki.bitcoin-assets.com
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: i can see it. sorta 'shit test', anyone who proposes any fork which refuses it, has to answer for himself
mircea_popescu: schmidty the idea is that you're supposed to press your own dogma so to speak.
mircea_popescu: same way v works for bitcoin code
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag exactly. a very minimal sort of thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86100 @ 0.00056858 = 48.9547 BTC [-] {2}
PeterL: !up schmidty
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64400 @ 0.00056893 = 36.6391 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#comment-116390 << incredibly enough everyone thinks this is a really original and interesting idea.
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1WYbhgA )
PeterL: well, "everyone" being the people commenting on your blog
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: i must agree with the rando commenter, i have nfi why anybody would 'buy from nodes'
PeterL: people who want to do lightweight / trimmed blockchain would not like the proposal
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14000 @ 0.00056893 = 7.965 BTC [+]
PeterL: seems like it would be easier to run your own node for your minerfarm than to buy from other people?
ascii_butugychag: aha, seems like a 'let's rent out space inside my nose' situation
ascii_butugychag: (to borrow a mircea_popescuism)
PeterL: I guess instead of having one pool doing block hashing, you would have two pools connected, one doing the block hashing and one doing the bitmap hashing?
PeterL: pay-per-nonce?
mircea_popescu: PeterL there's a selection of different people there but ok.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag then read my response :D
mircea_popescu: or just graph the demand curve for digests in units of time delta block finds in your head and see.
PeterL: so then people who have full nodes are the front half of the mining pool, and the back half remains about what it is now
mircea_popescu: PeterL nobody who wants a bitcoin-without-the-bitcoin thing would like that proposal. that's fundamentally why it's there, to readily distinguish people seeking to help from people seeking to help us hang ourselves.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the shifting decides that. if you make the shifting very low, mining as an activity seen today disappears altogether - the digest is much more expensive than the hashing.
mircea_popescu: so you'll just mine on server farms.
PeterL: is mining on server farms better than mining on asics?
ascii_butugychag: actually i must disagree with one point - general-purpose, e.g., x86, cpu, is full of so much crud that asicization is economical and quite inevitable
mircea_popescu: well... it is "closer to the origianl vision" at any rate.
ascii_butugychag: nobody needs that tlb cache
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag do you see the side benefit to this happening ?
ascii_butugychag: nobody needs the idiot 'acceleration' opcodes
ascii_butugychag: etc
mircea_popescu: "everything seems ripe for the picking to the man with a good pickaxe"
ascii_butugychag: just pointing out that 80-90% of an x86 die is there because winblowz, really
ascii_butugychag: and helps not at all in actual computation.
mircea_popescu: if that were to happen because we made it happen i'd be so happy.
mircea_popescu: what, finally can buy a sane cpu because bitcoin miners ?
mircea_popescu: yay bitcoin miners!
ascii_butugychag: nah it won't be sane
ascii_butugychag: it'll be like today's hash asic.
ascii_butugychag: just with nand flash bus.
mircea_popescu: step in right direction anyway.
ascii_butugychag: i don't see how
mircea_popescu: you don't see how it's a step or how it's the right direction ?
ascii_butugychag: other than the basic fact of it being a caltrop against folks who want to 'lose' the blockchain, i mean
ascii_butugychag: that part i get, and quite like
ascii_butugychag: but in re: silicon specifically
mircea_popescu: it will also be proof that in point of fact 80% of cpu could go away.
mircea_popescu: this is valuable.
ascii_butugychag: wouldn't prove anything re: 'it could go away' in re: ~workstation~
mircea_popescu: on that expertise, and more importantly on those suddenly opened eyes, more good stuff can be built.
ascii_butugychag: any more than today's dsp proves it
mircea_popescu: i believe differently.
ascii_butugychag: what was build on the opened eyes of sha256 hash asic ?
ascii_butugychag: *built
mircea_popescu: this.
mircea_popescu gestures around him.
ascii_butugychag doesn't see it
mircea_popescu: well... vision, what can i tell ya!
ascii_butugychag: interestingly, i fully expected, from 2010 on, folks to gnaw on the leather straps of sha256
ascii_butugychag: !s satcoin
assbot: 14 results for 'satcoin' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=satcoin
ascii_butugychag: pretty much ~didn't happen.
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392513 << heh. gotta love teh bitbet dramas. who knew a hockey bet would be such popular fodder for "debate" ? i guess the odd sports bet ain't so bad after all, though very few of them attract 10btc+ of action like this one.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 14:32:39; BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski https://bitbet.us/bet/1198/connor-mcdavid-will-live-up-to-the-hype/#c5602 I believe
mircea_popescu: i bought 2 kgs of costa rican cofee. place now smells like the end of the fucking world.
mircea_popescu: i've never had coffee this good, and i lived in fucking costa rica!
felipelalli: <mircea_popescu> how is a bitfield in the gpg key help you in case you die ? or lose control of the key ? neither of these are time-able events. << well, thank you.
felipelalli: deedbot- http://dpaste.com/0019PDB.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQYRXa )
deedbot-: imported: 9E08524833CB3038FDE385C54C0AFCCFED5CDE14
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: britt ?
mircea_popescu: huh ?
pete_dushenski: http://www.cafebritt.com/
assbot: Cafe Britt Gourmet Coffee, Chocolates, Nuts and Cookies ... ( http://bit.ly/1WYdbO4 )
ascii_butugychag: i know of no reason to suspect that anybody on the planet is mining with any method other than brute force.
mircea_popescu: ah no.
ascii_butugychag: which imho is surprising.
ben_vulpes: quality coffee in bsas?
mircea_popescu: it's a little place with no particular name down by the end of santa fe
ascii_butugychag: (but then again it is possible to hide the elephant)
ben_vulpes: goochness.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes if you ever end up in here again ima buy you a pound of this stuff :D
ascii_butugychag salivates
felipelalli: <danielpbarron> ;;later tell felipelalli ^^^ also >> http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/deedbot#synopsis << Thank you danielpbarron - I was using in the wrong way. Now it works.
assbot: irc_bots:deedbot [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1RVey0C )
mircea_popescu: you too alfie
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: and imma drink it! if i ever come back.
ben_vulpes: at this rate the only time i'm going to come back is with a 5 yo and a 2 yo to escape election season
mircea_popescu: actually now that macri murdered their black market, maybe the borders open and i can mail you some or some shit.
felipelalli: deedbot- http://pastebin.com/raw/Bd3Qg7aW
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQXFTR )
deedbot-: accepted: 1
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: shall we try? anything you want from the states?
danielpbarron: felipelalli, ... I already did that for you!
ascii_butugychag: we got prime goatshit here
ascii_butugychag: what else we got
felipelalli: danielpbarron, thank you so much!
danielpbarron: (it doesn't matter who actually submits the deed, as long as it's blessed with WoT sig)
danielpbarron: now it's in there twice, but you're welcome
felipelalli: danielpbarron, nice!! :)
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes notrly, had lovage seeds courierred and that was the last thing.
felipelalli: danielpbarron, Daniel is a very common name in Brazil. Are you Brazilian?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91550 @ 0.00056925 = 52.1148 BTC [+] {4}
danielpbarron: lol, it's from the Bible.. it's common everywhere. and no I'm born and raised in Connecticut
felipelalli: danielpbarron, it makes sense! :D
danielpbarron: not really, my parents are atheists
felipelalli: But Felipe, for example, in some places are Philip, Filipe, Filippo etc.
mircea_popescu: Filip, even.
felipelalli: true! I saw Filipi already.
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392518 << but you said "in the us" where dollars don't mean things and "citizens" are africans who "make" xxx`xxx but leave no more than x`xxx to their children. (eg. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=18-10-2015#1301882) so african africans pay $0.005/diaper and it's a wash.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 14:34:29; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392335 << poverty limit. ask the world bank :D
assbot: Logged on 18-10-2015 16:37:35; asciilifeform: let's have a programmer, of some skill, no social net, no savings, pays 100K rent to make 120K in some godforsaken saltmine, in usa
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski i cheat. what else is new.
pete_dushenski: l0l
pete_dushenski: your proposal to increase block size pretty much seals this theory ;)
deedbot-: [Qntra] Shaun Bridges Arrested For Attempting To Flee United States - http://qntra.net/2016/02/shaun-bridges-arrested-for-attempting-to-flee-united-states/
mircea_popescu: did he go mexico ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Dunno that much yet, even though he was arrested last week word is just emerging this week.
mircea_popescu: heh.
BingoBoingo: Probably for reasons related to "trained experts" in german rapes
mircea_popescu: didn't give all the keys he promised ?
mircea_popescu: aha.
BingoBoingo: But spz. to prison on Friday, arrested Thursday so who knows what's actually happpening
BingoBoingo: If you want Pravda's narrative you can check "Wired"
mircea_popescu: its ok, im just going to read more of this guy's -printf +printf.
mircea_popescu: more exciting reading than wired at any rate.
BingoBoingo: Anyways much more news today than late last month. 4 newses and a report in the first 22 hours of February.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392991 << splendid!
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 19:06:38; phf: mircea_popescu: ^
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393011 << it is quite splendid.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 19:14:39; ascii_butugychag: phf: your viewer is mighty spiffy, it is exactly what i wanted to make in september (and never had time)
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/patches/polarbeard_remove_shrink_debug_file << aha, there we go
assbot: polarbeard_remove_shrink_debug_file ... ( http://bit.ly/1KmhEIu )
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes can you believe the deploy times of tmsr incidentally ?
mircea_popescu: shit just springs out overnight!
mircea_popescu: i have never witnessed anything like this before. if i were not-here i'd be pretty fucking scared.
ascii_butugychag: http://www.scribd.com/doc/297519336/Shaun-Bridges-Rearrest << apparently
assbot: Shaun Bridges Rearrest ... ( http://bit.ly/1KmhJvK )
ben_vulpes: well polarbeard likes to pretend as though i don't exist until he finally does what i ask, and even then refuses to ping me on the topic.
ascii_butugychag: 'During the execution that warrant, and based on facts that remain under seal before this Court, the government recovered the following items: two “pelican style” bags which contained: identity documents; a passport card in Bridges’ name; a notarized copy of Bridges’ passport; corporate records for at least 3 different offshore entities ranging from Nevis to Belize to Mauritius, i
mircea_popescu: did i miss some drama ?
ascii_butugychag: ncluding one that Bridges created on October 28, 2015 after he had pleaded guilty in this case; a Samsung cell phone; and a thumb drive. Also located in those bags were documents relating to his wife’s, Ariana Esposito’s, attempts to obtain citizenship in another country. Government agents also found a MacBook with the serial number scratched off, an ipad tucked between a bedroom mattr
ben_vulpes: but yeah phf's sprouting some lovely tooling
ascii_butugychag: ess, and bulletproof vests, at least one of which had Secret Service markings and thus is believed to have been stolen from the government. '
ascii_butugychag: l0ltr0nic.
BingoBoingo: Coke Machine
jurov: phf what's i written in?
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag sounds more and more like it's a petraeus job.
jurov: *it
mircea_popescu: llleeeesp
ben_vulpes: le leeeesp
ascii_butugychag: speaking of petraeus jobs, same rag, http://www.wired.com/2016/01/nsa-hacker-chief-explains-how-to-keep-him-out-of-your-system
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1WYf11p )
mircea_popescu: might also be the first time lisp was used for an actual purpose in its entire history
mircea_popescu runs off in a serpentine fashion, head down
ascii_butugychag: tr0l0l0l
ben_vulpes throws pens, pencils, erasers at mircea_popescu's slithering ass
ben_vulpes: stoned to death by office supplies
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag he has the right method tho, you know ? what in beginner writer classes is called show, don't tell.
ascii_butugychag: aha
mircea_popescu: in other news : mp decides new heels and dress would go very well with a shiny-red lacquered leather ball gag. proceeds to inquire with a dozen or so sex shops in the farming town. they ALL have the same exact item.
mircea_popescu: leaving aside they're trying to pass off a 70 cent chinese bit of crap for 20 bux in a poor country que no es un pais pobre : why the fuck bother to have a dozen shops then ?!
BingoBoingo wonders with this nuggest alf will show of lisp once he can find the right bolts to keep Shiva attached
BingoBoingo spz's that Shiva is probably the right place to get a less retarded wallet to talk to Bitcoin node.
mircea_popescu: quite so.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: lemme guess, they're all on the same street too?
mircea_popescu: over about 30 blocks yes.
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: when i weld on a working field arithmetic
ascii_butugychag: atm there is none.
ascii_butugychag: (this is the biggest point of divergence with r5rs standard, it ~demands~ it)
mircea_popescu: once you do that ima want shoup implemented just to have it nearby
ascii_butugychag: sure
mircea_popescu: ima do some shoup encoding on avenida cramer just for the fucks of it.
BingoBoingo: I suspect this will magically emerge as a surpise on some pseudorandom weekend
ascii_butugychag: incidentally all of this exists in sad pieces in the cellars of my sad tower
mircea_popescu: that isn't even flying, let alone dirigible.
mircea_popescu: alf built himself a house shaped like a boat and is now waiting!
BingoBoingo: Or a yurn in th pampas
ascii_butugychag: aha, it works mightily just to stand.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393026 << at least it wasn;t fucking developed by teh nsa.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 19:29:18; ascii_butugychag: ;;later tell mircea_popescu in what sense is adoptinc keccak a rejection of usg standards? it was actually adopted as sha3...
mircea_popescu: as far as we know. whatevs. minor point.
ascii_butugychag: btw between that thread and now i went and read the keccak spec
ascii_butugychag: it is mighty spiffy.
ascii_butugychag: accordionizes to size.
mircea_popescu: :)
mircea_popescu: i don't need to explain what i meant by not finite then ?
ascii_butugychag: aha.
ascii_butugychag: other hashes also accept infinite bits but they eat where they shit.
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: and mind that while in no means do i propose this is "Asic resistant", from a designer perspective you must appreciate i'm giving you a fun job to do.
mircea_popescu: at least therer's that.
mircea_popescu: always make sure everyone's having fun.
ascii_butugychag: quite! nobody will be plagiarizing old verilog from fpga docs to bake this one.
ascii_butugychag: very asian-resistant.
ascii_butugychag: which is a mega-plus.
ben_vulpes: whoa oakland terminal is filing for ch 11
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82529 @ 0.00056816 = 46.8897 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: honestly the way i expect practical implementations to work (at least "originally") is, best effort sort of thing.
mircea_popescu: "we get the right hash 95% of the time!"
mircea_popescu: and throw an error about half the rest of the time!
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: actually it will be a massively-parallel sort of affair
ascii_butugychag: or did you already say this
ascii_butugychag: (rainbow table)
mircea_popescu: well yeah.
ascii_butugychag: incidentally, does this actually incentivize storing the blocks? or only the rainbow table!
mircea_popescu: doesn't matter, they're homomorphisms.
ascii_butugychag: not for the purpose of relay
ascii_butugychag: or am i missing something
mircea_popescu: that is true.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: WHy is this surprizing. Oakland sucks and Oakland terminal has been struggling.
mircea_popescu: but you get what the tree grew, not what you want to eat!
ascii_butugychag: this here tree might be growin' old tyres
mircea_popescu: actually... take the rainbows, write them ACROSS the bitfield, got the blocks lol.
mircea_popescu: this is the amusing chinese-ness of this all. basically we're reading the other direction.
mircea_popescu: more than one person in china lolled when they saw it.
ascii_butugychag: almost cantor's diagonal flavour to it.
mircea_popescu: aha.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 172634 @ 0.00056755 = 97.9784 BTC [-] {4}
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393062 << ah come on this is rank nonsense. who executes blocks.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 19:59:21; hdbuck: qntrable? >> Kaspersky / Interpol fun: http://www.coinfox.info/news/persons/1733-kaspersky-lab-researcher-creates-virus-that-can-spread-through-the-blockchain
mircea_popescu: incidentally ascii_butugychag i had dc price 1tb ram. the guy... lifted an eyebrow.
mircea_popescu: about thirteen grand, and q2 delivery.
mircea_popescu: but yes, that'd be one spiffy node.
BingoBoingo: https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CaKO7QnUEAEWdQX.mp4
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KmkfSU )
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: actually i would be only slightly surprised if prb could be persuaded to jmp into a block.
felipelalli: danielpbarron, I can't find my deed in http://deedbot.org/ - do you know why?
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UxGNEF )
BingoBoingo: from https://twitter.com/IHBio/status/694274558665175040https://twitter.com/IHBio/status/694274558665175040
ascii_butugychag: or even a tx.
trinque: felipelalli: yes, he got shot in the head again and is catching back up, is at 396128
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag seeing how there's memory leaks... not a bad bet.
trinque: felipelalli: I thought the cause was something to do with your deed earlier, deleted it, now jurov's has gone through, and yours is next
hdbuck: mircea_popescu yes, sry, ps: gmax actually adressed your recent blogpost : http://pastebin.com/nq3iFbW8
assbot: gmaxwell: The thing that proposal wants to do has been discussed by others many - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kmkn4I )
felipelalli: trinque, lol! I think I have killed deedbot- many times unintentionally.
mircea_popescu: hdbuck apparently it's the talk of the town, yeah.
trinque: felipelalli: that is a good thing; this present round of woes shall be rememdied in a few days, I think. trb node shall have reached the top. It's at about 385k right now
felipelalli: trinque, nice!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 102250 @ 0.00056955 = 58.2365 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/43qisj/paul_sztorc_on_twitter_it_seems_that_mircea/
assbot: Paul Sztorc on Twitter: "It seems that [Mircea Popescu] has internalized Bitcoin's full node externality. Initial reaction: "Wow."" : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kmlp0t )
pete_dushenski: hehe
pete_dushenski: kids finally starting to name names
pete_dushenski: rather than just "oh some small block zealots are afraid of progress" such and such
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86300 @ 0.00056969 = 49.1642 BTC [+] {3}
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392989 << ok this is super cool. nicely done phf!
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 19:06:34; phf: ok, so http://btcbase.org/patches/
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393047 << any merit to these 'hybrid' drives ? or just ssd or bust.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 19:56:14; ascii_butugychag: imho spinning rust is a losing proposition for any node.
pete_dushenski: !up ascii_butugychag
ascii_butugychag: pete_dushenski: the hybrid thing seems like the worst of both worlds
jurov: pete_dushenski: gigabytes of RAM alleviate the problem, but only if it's not too far behind
jurov: so I imageine it's the same with hybrids
mircea_popescu: hybrids are one of those "maybe when it grows up" techs.
pete_dushenski: aha. good to know as i'm on the hunt for a new node hard drive and, given this, might as well spring for ssd.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65951 @ 0.00056022 = 36.9471 BTC [-] {3}
pete_dushenski: any ssd brands to avoid ?
BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/43pqky/bitcoin_core_will_soon_replace_the_industry/czk0ral
assbot: Zotamedu comments on Bitcoin core will soon replace the industry standard random number generator with a homebrew script. Sorry for your loss (of entropy) ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q8QotN )
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Avoid SSD's which seem inexpensve for their capacity
BingoBoingo: SSD market pretty much consists on Samsung, Intel, and other firms that just use surplus parts from samsung
jurov: "Comming soon, custom memory allocator!" :B
ascii_butugychag: hybrid is guaranteed not to help a node.
ascii_butugychag: because node is a random access affair.
ascii_butugychag: the ~locality~ is small.
jurov: i disagree
pete_dushenski: ok. now any idea why ssd's are all 2.5" ?
ascii_butugychag: not so
ascii_butugychag: plenty of 'msata' etc
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60312 @ 0.00056976 = 34.3634 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: after syncing i have moved older half of blockXXX.dat on spinning rust and it did not access them very often
pete_dushenski: ascii_butugychag: mkay. i just need to dig more then
ascii_butugychag: and if pete_dushenski is really asking why there are no 3.5" ones, it is for same reason as why not 5.25
ascii_butugychag: because wtf
ascii_butugychag: jurov: that was because ~nobody is actually setting up new nodes
ascii_butugychag: or moving old coin
jurov: but feeding new nodes is not random-access affair. spending old coin, now that's something else
jurov: but if it was not spent often so far, i hardly expect that to change
ascii_butugychag still thinks that blockchain mask rom ought to be a product
ascii_butugychag: why the fuck provision for rewriting bits that will ~never~ be rewritten.
ascii_butugychag: mask rom is approximately indestructible, costs precious little to make, uses minimal current, etc
jurov: so? burn the old half to bd-r. checkbox marked.
ascii_butugychag: slow
ascii_butugychag: and now you're ddosable.
ascii_butugychag: (when it becomes known that asking for old blocks makes you spin a motor)
jurov: ha! let the enemy start moving his precious pre-2011 coinz
ascii_butugychag: he doesn't need to actually move'em
ascii_butugychag: just pretend to
ascii_butugychag: you ~will~ have to load the blocks
ascii_butugychag: (to see that his tx is invalid)
jurov: that will be stopped by index which stays on ssd
ascii_butugychag: how does this help ?
ascii_butugychag: index just ends up telling you to fetch the ancient block.
ascii_butugychag: bitcoin as presently conceived requires random access.
jurov: ok. anyway, should be not hard to have a bit in the index saying tx has all otutputs spent with 1000... confirmations
ascii_butugychag bbl
jurov: (but yes that's HARD, i believe electrum does this and it makes full sync almost impractical even on ssd)
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag> why the fuck provision for rewriting bits that will ~never~ be rewritten. <<< ironically, cheaper to save on hdd than on the mask rom. yet.
mircea_popescu: but yes, this is a point.
mircea_popescu: especially seeing that glass storage thing i read about.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51650 @ 0.00056012 = 28.9302 BTC [-] {3}
BingoBoingo: <pete_dushenski> ok. now any idea why ssd's are all 2.5" ? << You know these things work in 3.5" and even 5.25" bays... Even work with same cables.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: mhm. can use mounting bracket too if you don't feel like taping it on. i guess the 2.5" size meets the 90% of buyers using it for laptops and the 10% of buyers using it for desktops aren't excluded either.
BingoBoingo: Many of them will include the bracket in the retail box
pete_dushenski is a hdd/sdd buying noob
danielpbarron too
danielpbarron: and this line of questioning interests me; i've been meaning to get one of those things too
danielpbarron: or more than one; does it make sense to make a raid? and for that matter what's the right thing to buy for that?
danielpbarron: i've got this nice beefy workstation but i'm still using my 10 year old hard drives
BingoBoingo: Kinda makes sense to do raid 1 for redundancy and faster reads
mircea_popescu: depends what you wanna do. raid 1 works well for security ; raid 0 for speed
danielpbarron: i mean hardware controller; i think i recall reading asciilifeform saying hardware is only way to raid
gernika: I have raid 1 (hardware) going with 2 ssds
danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-01-2016#1386437
assbot: Logged on 26-01-2016 19:24:59; ascii_butugychag: (as far as i'm concerned, there is ONE manufacturer of raid cards)
gernika: 3ware
gernika: 9560SE-4LPML
BingoBoingo: Anyways my take on the SSD market is the stuff Samsung is willing to brand as theirs is the safest in a longevity way. Who the fuck knows which is least likely to have evil baked in.
BingoBoingo: As alf graciously contributed http://qntra.net/2015/02/your-disk-controller-and-you/
assbot: Your Disk Controller and You | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1PNrD5T )
pete_dushenski: curious if asciilifeform is buying sandisk, samsung, intel(!), amd, or other ssd atm.
pete_dushenski: so far it looks like the sandisk 'extreme pro' is the best bang for the buck in the 480-500gb segment. though all are free to point me to something better!
pete_dushenski: bbl
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Sandisk, AMD, etc is all Samsung parts
BingoBoingo: Or was last I checked.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 240616 @ 0.00055963 = 134.6559 BTC [-] {5}
BingoBoingo: Intel for a while did their own thing, but I am unsure if they still do.
kakobrekla sent numerous 'go fuck yourself' letters to sandisk for their policies with usb drives and will never buy their shit again
gernika: BingoBoingo: how about Micron?
BingoBoingo: gernika: I don't know about them and SSD's.
jurov: in related news, the "kingdian" shit survived several rewrites already
BingoBoingo: sweet
jurov: i wonder if many-MLC SSD is fullfilling alf's dreams of ROM :D
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36100 @ 0.00055836 = 20.1568 BTC [-] {2}
fluffypony: sorry mircea_popescu, your secret is out
fluffypony: [01:29:21] <JackH>he seems quite certain of himself and even writes that he refuses to accept it wont work
fluffypony: [01:29:45] <JackH>in his universe, his words are absolute - its quite funny to read
fluffypony: [01:51:12] <psztorc>JackH: He does that on purpose, to manipulate the type of people who choose to read his blog.
fluffypony: [01:51:34] <psztorc>The secret is that he isn't arrogant at all -- only pretending.
mircea_popescu: huh ?
mircea_popescu: o.O
mircea_popescu: lies, all lies.
fluffypony: no you're only pretending, now we know the truth
mircea_popescu: stop saying rumpelskiltstin.
fluffypony: :-P
mircea_popescu: IT WONT DO YOU ANY GOOD
mircea_popescu: if i read one more fucking printf statement i'm going to start murdering people again. bbl.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu begins to feel the burn!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109763 @ 0.00056264 = 61.7571 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53750 @ 0.00056419 = 30.3252 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: !up t
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5950 @ 0.0005642 = 3.357 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393454 << interesting.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 23:38:18; BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Sandisk, AMD, etc is all Samsung parts
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393458 << what's sandisk's usb policy ?
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 23:39:03; *: kakobrekla sent numerous 'go fuck yourself' letters to sandisk for their policies with usb drives and will never buy their shit again
BingoBoingo: Now that gernika brought it up, apparently Micron also makes nand and SSD's
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393077 << apparently boeing doesn't have enough 'mass market' engineering to do these days so is contributing their engineering expertise to... golf clubs. callaway drivers in particular.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 20:06:49; ascii_butugychag: having it with somebody who understands nothing of how his civilization is put together, to whom flashlight, pc, boeing, are equally magical - is a snore.
pete_dushenski: not like aerodynamic performance matters in the slightest when you're joe average swinging his driver at 75 mph, but hey mr. tourstar who swings at 110+ mph notices a difference, however marginal, and that's good enough for joe !
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393428 << a) only because 'economy of scale' b) hdd total cost of ownership IF YOU NEED 100% uptime is quite high
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 23:17:36; mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag> why the fuck provision for rewriting bits that will ~never~ be rewritten. <<< ironically, cheaper to save on hdd than on the mask rom. yet.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393433 << i buy iron brackets for'em, cheap
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 23:24:07; pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: mhm. can use mounting bracket too if you don't feel like taping it on. i guess the 2.5" size meets the 90% of buyers using it for laptops and the 10% of buyers using it for desktops aren't excluded either.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1393451 << bunch of'em, no intels
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 23:32:54; pete_dushenski: curious if asciilifeform is buying sandisk, samsung, intel(!), amd, or other ssd atm.
asciilifeform: but see also the raid thread
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-01-2016#1386469 <<
assbot: Logged on 26-01-2016 19:40:17; ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: i like raid5, among other reasons, because it makes life very painful for boobytrapped hdd supplier
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: will reread. cheers.
pete_dushenski: "So that is a long way of saying that Callaway has reshaped the Speed Step on the crown of the XR 16 driver, but at least you now know that a whole lot of thought and time has gone into it from the best brains from two of the top aerodynamic engineering companies around. The result is the XR 16 driver that has a 30% lower head drag and a 10% lower face drag than the original XR driver." http://www.golfalot.com/Portal
assbot: Golfalot.com > Page Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1UED3gz )
pete_dushenski: imagesblogs/callaway/xr16/reviewdriverwave.jpg << ok that's actually notbad…
pete_dushenski: http://www.golfalot.com/Portals/0/imagesblogs/callaway/xr16/reviewdriverwave.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UED4B7 )
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski plays?
pete_dushenski: well even !
asciilifeform: neato
pete_dushenski: the number of sports where one isn't saddled with other idjits (and their trivial hierarchies) are few and far between. thus i grew up doing swimming, golf, badminton, tennis, running, yoga, etc.
asciilifeform: where i live, it is an 'old man game'
pete_dushenski: it's quite popular here with all ages. my theory is that it has a similar swing plane to hockey, which is the ~most~ popular, and works well as a seasonal alternate.
pete_dushenski: though most take it up in their 20s and 30s because they're a) bored and need the frustration, and b) need to play for 'business' reasons on account of many alrger firms having annual tournaments.
pete_dushenski: larger*
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86900 @ 0.0005583 = 48.5163 BTC [-] {5}
pete_dushenski: i started around 13yo, peaked in '09 when i won the club championship at one of the two most competitive private clubs in town. only play two, maybe three times a year now as i find it a bit abusive to swing that hard now and can think of a several books i'd rather read with 6 hours of continuous time.
pete_dushenski: coincidentally, my golf equipment is almost exactly the same vintage as my computing equipment and i similarly see no benefit to upgrading either.
mircea_popescu: lol.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Just wait until you need an orthopedic computer
pete_dushenski: though i suppose the golf ball is the equivalent of the hdd/sdd - it breaks, you "lose" it, and does actually need to be replaced eventually.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: what do you think i'm using now ?
BingoBoingo: One that's not as orthotic as you'll need after pantagruel spends a decade using you as a thing to climb on
pete_dushenski: i tremble at the thought...
pete_dushenski: holy shit is chopin the worst fucking composer to listen to when trying to read or write. what an obnoxious fucking twat!
pete_dushenski: BANGBANGCLASHBANGBANG. all goddam day.
pete_dushenski: i'm sure his pieces would make for excellent theatre, but they make the worst study partner.
pete_dushenski: http://conbody.com/ << one for BingoBoingo
assbot: ConBody ... ( http://bit.ly/1UEFJed )
pete_dushenski: "The story behind the workout is almost as good as the workout itself: Coss Marte developed a unique and effective exercise program without the need for any equipment while doing his time. and now he helps you to do yours."
asciilifeform: lifting other prisoners ?
asciilifeform: (traditional)
pete_dushenski: "While serving a sentence in his 9’x6′ prison cell, Coss lost 70+ lbs. in just six months. From that experience, Coss refined a unique fitness program combining fun cardiovascular, aerobic, and running exercises and now he has brought this exercise program back to New York City."
pete_dushenski: back ?!
pete_dushenski: back to alcatraz, sure, but nyc ?
pete_dushenski: in other news, this lead-in made me loller >> "At the University of Kentucky, taco knowledge is power."
pete_dushenski: https://munchies.vice.com/en/articles/you-can-now-study-tacos-at-the-university-of-kentucky
assbot: You Can Now Study Tacos at the University of Kentucky | MUNCHIES ... ( http://bit.ly/1UEGmEs )
pete_dushenski: "This semester, the university is offering an undergraduate course called “Taco Literacy: Public Advocacy and Mexican Food in the US South.” Led by Steven Alvarez, an assistant professor in the university’s Writing, Rhetoric, and Digital Studies department, the class aims to teach students about Mexican foodways in Kentucky and the broader South."
pete_dushenski: inb4 "HOW DID I END UP WITH ALL THE DEBT AND NO TACO STAND JOB PROSPECTS ??!"
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> ben_vulpes mod6 if teh esteemed foundation'd give an opinion on http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ kthx. << I'm reading through the post, must grok.
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q70TOa )
mircea_popescu: mod6 take your time!
mod6: *cough*3rd time*cough*
mod6: there is some good Q&A in the comments.
mircea_popescu: yeah it's kinda rare for trilema comments to take off these days.
asciilifeform: btw i realized that mircea_popescu might single-handedly cause delay-line memory to come back.
mircea_popescu: but i thought you foamingly hated it!!1
asciilifeform: l0l wut
mircea_popescu: when the post showed up.
mircea_popescu: but no, it's really not fair - i spring stuff like this on people that's been many months in the building and then what, they gotta have an instareaction ?
mircea_popescu: i cheat.
asciilifeform: not so much hated, as didn't see the win
asciilifeform: but think about, if you had the blocks circulating in a light pipe, the nonce operation is... O(1)
asciilifeform: just shift the phase.
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: think about it lol. it didn't just fall from the sky, it's a construct!
pete_dushenski to dinner
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36450 @ 0.00056306 = 20.5235 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#comment-116397
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UEI3BP )
jurov: ^to work as intended, the nonce must depend on included transactions in mined block, too
jurov: imo designing something that forces miner to have fast random access to all whole blocks is a cryptographical challenge
asciilifeform: http://qntra.net/2016/02/shaun-bridges-arrested-for-attempting-to-flee-united-states/#comment-44523 << lulzy
assbot: Shaun Bridges Arrested For Attempting To Flee United States | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Sp0i0S )
asciilifeform: quoted for the logz:
asciilifeform: 'From the court filing for his recent arrest it looks like this was a fairly clever trap set for Bridges. There's a reference in the last paragraph of the filing to a still-sealed warrant for Bridges' arrest. Apparently they got this sealed warrant issued BEFORE they released him, then let him out for the occasionally-offered "time to tidy up your affairs" post-sentencing/pre-incarceration. This isn't too unusual, but ONLY for
asciilifeform: convicts with near-zero flight risk. So it's very very strange they offered this to Bridges, and he's an idiot for not wondering WTF was up. Anyways, looks like he fell into the trap. Now they've got him back as well as all the goodies in his "go bag". I'm guessing that "go bag" was the point of the whole excercise.'
mod6: asciilifeform: cool with you if i send those re-worked patches to the ML?
asciilifeform: mod6: sure why not
mod6: well, they're your things!
asciilifeform: mod6: they wanted to live in ml
asciilifeform: and do me a favour and say what'll need to get reground
mod6: ahhhhhhh
mod6: now we get to it.
mod6: so even though I was able to press out shiva, et. al.; it might be worthwhile to make a list of which patches need to be included to make it work.
asciilifeform: there were precisely 2
mod6: i think there is some confusion there. as you saw in the logs.
asciilifeform: 3, rather
asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000198.html << these
assbot: [BTC-dev] (EXPERIMENTAL) Introducing: Shiva. ... ( http://bit.ly/1SN6qPP )
asciilifeform: and http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000202.html << fix
assbot: [BTC-dev] Shiva bug fix. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pq7ven )
asciilifeform: and, for anybody who missed it the first two times,
asciilifeform: !!! >>>> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392305 <<<< !!!
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 05:13:50; asciilifeform: tinyscheme genesis is NOT PART OF TRB !!1111111111111
mod6: so shiva part 1 & part 2 + shiva fix.
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: jurov answered.
asciilifeform: btw this is the kind of question a working vtron oughta answer in <1sec
mircea_popescu: and on this specific topic - i'd prefer if all discussion happens there. it'll become impossible to track if we just do the usual layered cake.
mod6: i kindof agree.
adlai: mircea_popescu: apologies for retardation, i may have just posted my comment twice
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> 'From the court filing for his recent arrest it looks like this was a fairly clever trap set for Bridges. <<< heh.
mircea_popescu: adlai i dun think it lets you do that really.
mod6: I, jurov, am hereby submitting the treasurer's reward in full as my
mod6: tax payment to the Foundation.
mod6: Thanks!
adlai waits for the day when usg stagehands and muppeteers donate their entire income to the IRS (saves on paperwork!)
jurov: ben_vulpes do you intend to maintain v.py? *all* its unittests break from several causes
jurov: like alf's expired key you bundled in
mircea_popescu: adlai well, buffett donated his secretary's. that count ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5050 @ 0.00055706 = 2.8132 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: i thought ben_vulpes made a lisp deal?
jurov: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000165.html
assbot: [BTC-dev] V. (ver. 99K) ... ( http://bit.ly/1VHbxQN )
mod6: oh aight
jurov: generally, wot should ignore expiration dates. like, if alf dies, we're going to throw everything out?
jurov: *v should
mod6: it should do what these guys were talking about before, just press up to level where key you trust has signed.
mod6: so if i get hit by a bus, and alf has signed all the patches, then you're ok as long as you trust alfie. or vice versa.
jurov: what about genesis?
mod6: well, you press out genesis if you trust at least one person who has signed it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34600 @ 0.00055706 = 19.2743 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: jurov> generally, wot should ignore expiration dates. like, if alf dies, we're going to throw everything out? << holy shit!
mod6: which currently stands at 4 lords at this point
mod6: genesis.vpatch (asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, mod6, trinque)
jurov: ok i get it, it's using other people sigs
mircea_popescu: mod6 vaguely unrelated points. the owner's death guarantees a key with an expiration date will expire ; it also guarantees the trust for it needn't ever be updated - dead men tell no lies.
mircea_popescu: consequently the expiration date makes no sense whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: take chetty's key. if it expires tomorrow, what does that change exactly ?
mod6: nada.
mircea_popescu: so basically key expiration as a concept is broken, in that it induces a wrinkle between phenomena and representation.
mod6: in the case of v, if she had created a patch, and she was the only one who signed it and her key expired tomorrow, well, someone better grok it and sign it who's in the current lordship
mircea_popescu: or else simply ignore key expirations forever.
mod6: ya
mircea_popescu: jesus' key also expired.
mod6: i didn't know he was a crypto guy
mod6: :D
mircea_popescu: technically, as per catholic doctrine, jesus must have been a crypto guy.
mod6: the history you don't know... or how does it go?
mircea_popescu: lol
jurov: that's not catholic doctrine
mircea_popescu: jurov hm ?
jurov: catholic is that truth is what living Pope signs.
mircea_popescu: because peter, because jesus.
mircea_popescu: there's a filiation there.
jurov: and there were two popes and whatnot
mircea_popescu: not as per doctrine :)
mircea_popescu: that is lay history!
mircea_popescu: anyway, throwaway point, lettuce move on.
jurov: i just happened to stumble upon it cuz vulpes' test data has only one - alf's signature per patch
mod6: you know, im pretty sure that my v ignores expired keys.
jurov: guess i should stop wasting time with it and approach v from completely other direction
mod6: try it out, grab v99996, grab alfs expired key and drop it in your .wot
mod6: see what happens.
jurov: tomorrow.
mod6: whenever is cool. :]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 165200 @ 0.00056477 = 93.3 BTC [+] {4}
mod6: ok so pressed out shiva with V -- used what is currently in the mirror (including alfs PVS) + what is stated above: shiva 1 & 2 + shiva fix, compiles and works:
mod6: #>(btc-get-best-height)
mod6: 396226
mod6: that's for ben
mod6: http://dpaste.com/1B4ZZFP.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UERsJA )
mod6: be back in a few to sort out the patches that need re-grind after I submit the integrated programmable-version-strings vpatch and the reground mikehearn one
mod6: actually, i think we're ok here because the only parts that changed in the new patches are main.cpp and serialize.h
mod6: lemme compile & test with the new patches + shiva 1 & 2 + fix
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15010 @ 0.00055706 = 8.3615 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: ok ~compiled~
mod6: Bitcoin version 0.9.99.98 << good
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: it is a very interesting proposal.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53222 @ 0.00055706 = 29.6478 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: ok looking good - asciilifeform, check it out: http://dpaste.com/18G1QV6.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pvewuh )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66800 @ 0.00055706 = 37.2116 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: is this the sort of thing that *must* be implemented as a fork of the existing chain?
ben_vulpes not terrifically intimate with fork dynamics in practice, having flatly ignored proposals to do so until now
ben_vulpes now actually very curious as to how this sort of thing would work at the code level in practice. if blockheight < forkheight, use old validation rules, else use new?
adlai: ben_vulpes: did you see my comment? this could be implemented today by miners already and you wouldn't have known of it
danielpbarron recalls Mircea saying something like "if you're gonna fork, might as well start with new genesis block"
ben_vulpes: i do not think i've gotten to your comment yet adlai. on trilema?
adlai: ben_vulpes: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#comment-116398
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1PvfxSY )
danielpbarron: !s fork genesis
assbot: 5 results for 'fork genesis' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=fork+genesis
ben_vulpes: aha
danielpbarron: ^ there you go :)
ben_vulpes: i believe that i understand how it could be implemented softly, adlai, but it doesn't /count/ until it's verified.
adlai: correct, same as how extension block (adam back's original name for what morphed into the "segwit softfork") payments don't /count/ until you withdraw them to cold, hard, bitcoin
ben_vulpes: yeah i never followed that stupidity in depth
ben_vulpes: jurov: i committed violence to asciilifeform's original v in a harebrained attempt to add tests, was roundly caned for the violence, left his implementation to him and hared off to reimplement in cl.
adlai: ben_vulpes: fwiw i still believe it's a bad idea to discourage this kind of "speculative soft fork"... it makes it easier for experimenters to put their money where their mouth is, and puts on a good show for "conservatives" who remain in plain good old Bitcoin
ben_vulpes: adlai: sure!
adlai personally will be slightly amused if LN goes live on SegwitCoin, and sees zero volume because nobody who spends btc actually needs micropayments
adlai: (there'd go all the talk about capacity cliffs...)
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes made for some interesting discussion at any rate.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34500 @ 0.00055704 = 19.2179 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: adlai this fear is part of why ln bla bla stays vaporware.
mircea_popescu: but that aside, should they somehow find the money/mit to pull an ethereum : spam is easy and cheap.
adlai: part of the just beauty is that spamming extension blocks is cheaper than spamming Bitcoin
adlai: so along with a fee market, we also get a spam market
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1393662 << neato mod6
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 03:13:21; mod6: ok looking good - asciilifeform, check it out: http://dpaste.com/18G1QV6.txt
asciilifeform: http://qntra.net/2016/02/popescu-offers-condition-for-accepting-future-hard-forks/#comment-44526 << lulzy
assbot: Popescu Offers Condition For Accepting Future Hard Forks | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1KmM2Tf )
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1393606 << perhaps i ought to explain, i use the expiration feature so that my key can get garbagecollected out of heathendom when i finally transition to new one, instead of working as a honeypot for hitler
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 02:03:04; jurov: generally, wot should ignore expiration dates. like, if alf dies, we're going to throw everything out?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66617 @ 0.00055689 = 37.0983 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 143771 @ 0.00055557 = 79.8749 BTC [-] {4}
BingoBoingo: Our Nigerian prince appears to be back
mircea_popescu: which one of you is gbanga after all ?
mircea_popescu: also BingoBoingo maybe redirect the fellow to trilema comments where the matter of "jiggling the merkle tree" is well set to rest.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61696 @ 0.00056231 = 34.6923 BTC [+] {4}
BingoBoingo: done http://qntra.net/2016/02/popescu-offers-condition-for-accepting-future-hard-forks/#comment-44537
assbot: Popescu Offers Condition For Accepting Future Hard Forks | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1SA1E71 )
mircea_popescu: kinda lulzy how this got all the self-important know-nothings off their ass and flailing wildly.
mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/43qisj/paul_sztorc_on_twitter_it_seems_that_mircea/czka9we << check out this derp.
assbot: nullc comments on Paul Sztorc on Twitter: "It seems that [Mircea Popescu] has internalized Bitcoin's full node externality. Initial reaction: "Wow."" ... ( http://bit.ly/1SA2hxm )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24750 @ 0.00056569 = 14.0008 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: polarbeard + return error(SBLK "chain tip %s not found in the block index", hashBestChain.ToString().c_str()); << any reason this has only one flag ?
mircea_popescu: + return error(SBLK "block loading from disk failed"); << this soulds like SERR and so does + printf(SWAR SBLK "found bad block %s at height %d\n",
mircea_popescu: + printf(SWAR SWAL "repairing tx version %d\n", wtx.fTimeReceivedIsTxTime); << any reason this lost the hash ?
mircea_popescu: - printf("\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n"); ahahaha holy shit already.
mircea_popescu: i had forgotten that was in there. suddenly got flashbacks of ancient debug.log layout.
mircea_popescu: + printf(SINF SBLK "loading block index\n"); << this should show the nStart value ; so should all these timed items. like + printf(SINF SADR "loading addresses\n");
adlai: mircea_popescu: biggest derpitude is that we're discussing on irc a reddit conversation about a tweet linking to a blog
mircea_popescu: well what can you do, when the "real cryptographers" are involved, you're stuck.
mircea_popescu: i wonder if this is a step up or a step down from power ranger.
adlai: ;;later tell ben_vulpes see what happens when commenters can't find the comment box!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: ;;google victor victoria
gribble: Victor Victoria (1982) - IMDb: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084865/>; Victor Victoria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Victoria>; Victor/Victoria (musical) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor/Victoria_(musical)>
mircea_popescu: "a man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man pretending to be..."
danielpbarron: that Paul Sztorc guy is in Connecticut
danielpbarron: real close to me
mircea_popescu: small world eh.
mircea_popescu: + return error(SBLK "block %s doesn't match index", GetHash().ToString().c_str()); << it really doesn't work if you don't use the flags!
mircea_popescu: + return error(SBLK "pow %s work below minimum (%u)", hash.ToString().c_str(), nBits); << bunches of these.

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