deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2016/10/19/is-so-unfair-cycle-2/ << Bingo Blog - Is So Unfair Cycle 2
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo indeed. slowly percolating through my head :)
BingoBoingo: Trump has hoardes, CLitler has "settlers" who can settle on other candidates.
mircea_popescu: and in other afterparty news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/04467c1871a1103396d2ece8c0da251d/tumblr_nesv8r1BYD1tiy6qdo1_1280.jpg
ben_vulpes: back up to 84 pete_dushenski
ben_vulpes: i'm going to have to start collecting statistics.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556881 << i must point out, much as i have 0 luvvv for these folx, that this was a forced move. clim is ugly and dog-slow for what i suspect are fundamental reasons .
a111: Logged on 2016-10-19 23:10 gabriel_laddel: This, when they already had a complete clim implementation.
asciilifeform: and probably not fixable w/out making iron.
asciilifeform: (consider, why did they not simply clim-for-winblowz ??)
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161019/#291 << tbh i didn't check. does it re-enable after hw switch is toggled? what distro/OS do you run? i could check how it is on my end on that machine (prolly tomorrow, not today)
Framedragger: will check logs later. ridoinculous
scriba: Logged on 2016-10-19: [23:36:04] <gabriel_laddel> Framedragger: have you managed to turn off the wifi on your x220 such that it won't re-enable when you toggle the hardware switch again?
Framedragger: also iirc x220's come with either intel or realtek wifi adapters. mine is intel
mircea_popescu: and in other "future britny spears" news, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlU_wYK0YF4
mircea_popescu: and here';s something for ben_vulpes specifically : http://www.kopana.net/september-15-2014/
diana_coman: ahaha: ",operator imagine : Mircea Popescu"
mircea_popescu: aha. it's how it ended up in my flux.
trinque: Framedragger: ah and here I thought he wanted the wifi to stay off!
mircea_popescu: and in today's installement of "i am a jew and an idiot, hear my butt tearflow", https://archive.is/tJj1I
trinque: was pretty entertaining when that mickey mouse hosting the show asked them why neither of them care about increasing the national debt.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1556998 << wtf is such a 'hardware' switch worth ?!
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 10:17 Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161019/#291 << tbh i didn't check. does it re-enable after hw switch is toggled? what distro/OS do you run? i could check how it is on my end on that machine (prolly tomorrow, not today)
scriba: Logged on 2016-10-19: [23:36:04] <gabriel_laddel> Framedragger: have you managed to turn off the wifi on your x220 such that it won't re-enable when you toggle the hardware switch again?
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i don't know how it works internally in x220. if i wanted to make sure to not have wifi, i'd remove / physically disconnect the controller, of course..
asciilifeform: Framedragger: it is trivial to pull the card. my point is that there is an abundance of mysteriously softwaretronic 'hardware switches' for write-protect, radio-toggle, etc.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: hey no disagreement there!
Framedragger: tbh i wouldn't expect anything truly shady out of x220. i just didn't try any switches yet
Framedragger: ("truly shady" except for, you know, the whole shitty stack incl cpu, dma etc)
asciilifeform: or the winblowz rootkit which still ships with the stock bios
Framedragger: the prime point of my conviction regarding shadiness comes from the fact that X220 has a legit hax0r backlight at top of monitor.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: you mean uefi? yeah..
asciilifeform: no, ordinary rootkit
Framedragger: oh, uh
trinque: wtf is a legit hax0r backlight
Framedragger: trinque: it's a small LED which shines down upon the most awesome thinkpad keyboard before lenovo ruined (fuck chiclet)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: you don't mean anything in cpu microcode but rather in bios? plox to enlighten uneducated naive mind
asciilifeform: !#s lenovo rootkit
trinque: presence of this backlight makes you think either of IBM or Lenovo wouldn't fuck you for their government masters?
asciilifeform: !~google lenovo rootkit
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Lenovo used shady ' rootkit ' tactic to quietly reinstall unwanted ...: <http://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-rootkit-ensured-its-software-could-not-be-deleted/>; Lenovo Caught Using Rootkit to Secretly Install Unremovable Software: <http://thehackernews.com/2015/08/lenovo-rootkit-malware.html>; Lenovo Statement on Lenovo Service Engine (LSE) BIOS | Lenovo ...: (1 more message)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: heh. i think i recall. pity i didn't properly *read* about it. guess time to corebios the fuck out of that laptop anyway
Framedragger: asciilifeform: oh no this is sth else - thanks!
asciilifeform: ^ argentina mandates diebold voting machine and proclaims that publication of flaws is punishable
Framedragger: (still not sure if that rootkit is basically same as superfish. the latter is just in software as i take it; the former is a lenovo superduper software update solution which can download the latter(?) and resides in BIOS which is scary)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=29497693&sid=82d9b8ff7442a8e58f779a08c0d06494#p29497693
asciilifeform: ^ archive.is seems to break anchors
Framedragger: "More worrisome part of the feature is that it injects software that updates drivers, firmware, and other pre-installed apps onto Windows machine – even if you wiped the system clean." LOL
Framedragger: "a file called "wpbbin.exe" was placed in C:\windows\system32 and executed. That turns out to be a method Microsoft introduced with Windows 8 to allow the BIOS to execute code on boot up (!?!) called "Windows Platform Binary Table (WPBT)"." gotta love M$
thestringpuller: !!s 150
Framedragger: (and lenovo published their own 'Lenovo LSE Windows Disabler Tool'). [sorry i'm sure this is in the logz - i'm behind on stuff..]
thestringpuller: !~s bip-150
jhvh1: thestringpuller: Error: "s" is not a valid command.
thestringpuller: power rangers version of gossipd like stuff? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0150.mediawiki
Framedragger: five back-and-forth messages, hmh. also "For privacy reasons, dropping the connection or aborting during the authentication process must not be allowed. " sounds stupid to me
thestringpuller: unsurprising coming from the power rangers
asciilifeform: 'Acknowledgements: Gregory Maxwell and Pieter Wuille for most of the ideas in this BIP. Bryan Bishop for editing.'
asciilifeform: bishop == kanzure
asciilifeform: self-admitted usg hilfswillige.
thestringpuller: "A Hiwi was a foreigner who volunteered to serve the Nazis."
asciilifeform: !!rated kanzure
deedbot: asciilifeform rated kanzure -1 at 2014/06/21 22:40:29 << minor-league quisling; inquire within
thestringpuller inquires about rating
asciilifeform: it is in recent l0gz iirc.
asciilifeform: folks ask regularly, because the d00d is 'everywhere'.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-04 02:17 asciilifeform: kid was cursed, at very young age, with being 'esr rich'
asciilifeform: works, as far as i can tell, for the self-importance monkey riding on his back.
asciilifeform: but possibly at this point also for bread.
thestringpuller: hence why he types 20k word transcripts of lame meetings?
asciilifeform: the sort of fella who wants to be, where 'it's at' by his dim lights.
asciilifeform: y'know, folx like walter schellenberg, who joined ss simply because of the spiffy uniform and 'good career perspective'
thestringpuller: albeit off topic. your WWII references genuinely used to make me think you were >70 y/o
Framedragger: trinque: here's a (very shitty) video of someone dem0nstrating said light https://youtu.be/WzfL3parOWM?t=12
Framedragger: it's for the win.
asciilifeform: i had several boxes with this lamp, imho it is monumentally useless.
asciilifeform: why the fuck do you even need to see the keys.
asciilifeform: .. 'hunt and peck' typing ??
Framedragger: i actually like to have a sticky note near palm to scribble upon. in the dark
Framedragger: i too learned to type in was it 3rd grade :p but the light is aw3some. seriously tho, yeah it's not powerful at all
asciilifeform: i prefer working in a lit room
asciilifeform: (better yet, in the daytime)
Framedragger: but then how can you hax0r.
Framedragger: (i'm in an energetic mood today, teenage mode = collateral damage)
thestringpuller: you have a teenager?
Framedragger: thestringpuller: no not in the sense that you mean..
Framedragger: in unrelated news/queries, game audio has deteriorated in the last 10 years. used to be proper 3d positional audio. am trying to build a shitty 2d top-down thingie with proper HRTF etc for audio, don't suppose anyone has any recommendations? if worx on linux, enough in principle. linux + osx + windows = ideal
Framedragger: (mandatory 'fuck creative labs and fuck microsoft for pulling back on soundcard APIs)
thestringpuller: what are you using?
Framedragger: thestringpuller: pyglet for prototyping (yes yes python & graphics wtf), later - i do not know, i considered unity for prototyping, too (fat thing, that, yes). for ease of sake, very likely sdl for graphics and events, but not set.
thestringpuller: SDL with OpenAL is probably better suited, but more code writing.
Framedragger: unity hsa this oculus audio sdk which does HRTF and everything, but no occlusion. openal-soft does the latter as well as HRTF
Framedragger: thestringpuller: yeah fair enough
Framedragger: the -soft fork of openal seems very decent enough. i was hoping for something high/lazy-level for graphics so i don't have to deal too much with it (it'd be just 2d shapes anyway, no textures etc, super simplistic), and lower-level for audio so i can mess around with it. openal-soft as of now best contender
Framedragger: but man is audio a mess. so much middleware and layers
thestringpuller: i think with openal (iirc) you can drop sound to emit from a location like a light source on 3d map
thestringpuller: people used to love they could use the coords from OpenGL with OpenAL
thestringpuller: oh wow this shit still exist. I did this tutorial in high school circa 2003/2004: http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/game-programming/programming-3d-sound-with-openal-in-windows-r1958 << its for windows but I think you can translate to linux p. easily
thestringpuller: Framedragger: yea its something like: alSource3f(alSource,AL_POSITION, xposition, yposition, zposition);
Framedragger: (was afk.) (i guess it's unavoidable to a point because e.g. you need to somehow pass down complex scene info (not only sources and listeners but also obstacles for occlusion/reverb) into a low-level api)
thestringpuller: I mean you don't have to use opengl for graphics just use openal's coordinate system on top of SDL
Framedragger: thestringpuller: yeah you're totally right and i really like the api - it's nice! it does seem that to make sure everything incl hrtf works on a person's PC it needs to be installed to system dirs and then linked dynamically as folks had problems with static linking; and apparently for windows the 'proper' way to do it is to first install creative's openal version, and *then* install openal-soft on top
Framedragger: which is something i'd like to avoid; but if i can't - then i guess it's still the best thing available
Framedragger: (in one of his talks karmack did complain that (something like) "it's still ridiculous that i can send a packet to another continent than i can send a click to my sound card!" - basically, multiple middlware layers are involved and it's a bit.. stinky. but at least one can stick to a good API and reduce the headache..)
Framedragger: ^ send a packet *faster*
asciilifeform: Framedragger: 'software mixers' are an evil.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: asciilifeform: but if you want 3d soundspace with coordinates of sounds etc?
asciilifeform: (audio buffers are also an idiocy, but it is a forced mistake, it comes from trying to do real-time operations on a multiprocess os full of shit)
Framedragger: i guess that's not "mixing"
asciilifeform: the 'msdos way' to do audio was the sane way - 'what i write to this-here-address comes out the DAC immediately.'
Framedragger: yeah, linux audio folks have these suggestions to "run everything on a realtime kernel", which is probably akin to pouring a bit of water (which may or may not be mixed with gasoline) on a large fire.
Framedragger: i'd really like that
asciilifeform: ever try to use a linux (or winblowz) box for cnc machining via naive 'parallel port to stepper motor' plug ?
asciilifeform: you get soup.
asciilifeform: because multiprocess.
asciilifeform: worse yet if on a laptop, which has smm
Framedragger: i can imagine. i mean.. laggy audio on 2ghz cpu because multiprocess OS
asciilifeform: (and then you get interrupts serviced even under msdos with interrupt flag off)
Framedragger: s/karmack/carmack/ ^
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: the ms-dos way is used on the gameboy
thestringpuller: DMA to this address and out comes sound
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: and on every sane piece of single-purpose hardware ever made.
thestringpuller: writing a program for it felt a lot liek telling the computer to play a tape...
trinque: Framedragger: I had old school thinkpads; I was mocking your implication that it meant anything about whether the hardware was diddled
trinque: looking back over recent history, maybe a guy asks himself why the government stopped pushing the clipper chip.
trinque does not know how old Framedragger is
asciilifeform: in other vintage lulz, https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/surreptitiously.html#c1746484 << 'little birds' tell me that this actually happened. but no proof. anyone got electron microscope and too much free time ?
asciilifeform: 'As you know “the international community” is denouncing Russia’s use of bunker buster bombs as a war crime. There is a rebel video on you tube examining the hole made by a bunker buster. Looks like the bomb blast went through two meters of concrete to blow up inside a bunker. Somehow I doubt that you will find all that many civilians under two meters of concrete inside a bunker. But I rather suspect you might find a few memb
asciilifeform: ers of “the international community” in there.'
asciilifeform: http://blog.jim.com/uncategorized/nitrocellulose-illegalized << also of interest.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo ^ (belated) qntra ?
mircea_popescu: lol electrospaces.blogspot mmkay
asciilifeform: very mixed bag, this d00d.
asciilifeform: but not wholly a snore, which is rare.
trinque: where does he define this Cathedral thing
asciilifeform: trinque: it's a moldbugism
mircea_popescu: no it's not.
mircea_popescu: "the cathedral and the bazaar", google it.
asciilifeform: this is coincidental
asciilifeform: mr mold was quite specific about which 'cathedral', 0 to do with esr's.
mircea_popescu: not in the slightest. i daresay there is not one thing that originates with the curtis yarvin fellow.
trinque: I'm aware of the latter
mircea_popescu: what he does is the very americansky "i buy old books and rewrite them in my own hand, nobody'd ever know"
asciilifeform: this, he did not try to hide. but his 'cathedral' is american (and, post-1945, 'internashiinnal komyooniti') academia/press.
mircea_popescu: the difference from the other one being specifically that ?
asciilifeform: iirc esr's referred to microshit
mircea_popescu: ie, academia/press
mircea_popescu: the whole "this is how the matriarchy does it, this is how it should be done - because the matriarchy in all times and places is so much frozen shit" is not liable to change over time.
asciilifeform: imho it is useful to distinguish pickpocket from rustler, even if both are hanged with the same type of rope on the same tree on same day etc.
mircea_popescu: but do distinguish.
mircea_popescu: so how is microsoft different from democratic party supercap ?
mircea_popescu: physically the same people, ideologically the same agenda, financially the exact same "money", wherein lies the distinguishing ?
asciilifeform: esr's 'cathedral' is an imbecilic indictment of führerprinzip ;
asciilifeform: mr mold's - of demooocracy.
mircea_popescu: not in my read
asciilifeform: if we're dabbling in telepsychiatry, then the subject is what the patient hallucinated, rather than the actual objects that were in front of him at the time.
asciilifeform: esr hallucinated 'microshit is evil because monarchic'
mircea_popescu: well i dunno about that. the point being, if two works purport to describe items that can not be distinguished, it then stands that the two works are about the same thing.
asciilifeform: they describe the author's hallucinations, which are not difficult to distinguish.
mircea_popescu: this is how metaphysics, or christianity, etc even became subjects in the first place
asciilifeform: the actualities - correct, are quite similar, to sane eye.
mircea_popescu: there is absolutely nothing but this to glue together eg t aquinas and jonas the prophet
mircea_popescu: (and for bonus lulz - according to THEMSELVES, the pashtun are jews. unlike the people you and i know as jews, who are idiots, the good jews from afghanistan heard of the last prophet and sent envoys to muhammad.)
mircea_popescu: and since it's been mentioned, let it be said i'm rather suspicious of this fuhrerprinzip business also. nazis WERE socialists, by their own lights, and the fact that they desired a matriarchy stylistically irreconcilable with the matriarchy in power in england does not make them men, or respectable.
asciilifeform: that cargo cultists build 'airplane', does not show that airplane is a scam.
asciilifeform: 'tischgespräche im führerhauptquartier' and other sources strongly suggest that ~their~ airplane - was of straw.
asciilifeform: or at least of very dubious cardboard.
mircea_popescu: and since we're on it, let's define terms. matriarchy - an arrangement built among the worst in society, who are weak, inconsequential, ambitious and envious. they tend to spend a lot of time gossiping - which is speech without purpose - and dedicate themselves to a very pedestrian sort of magico-technology, aiming to protect, their worthless flesh as well as their miserable progeny. this necessarily decays into a quest for c
mircea_popescu: onvenience, which is no sort of hedonism.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile patriarchy is an arrangement among the best in society, who are strong, inconsequential, and careless. they tend to spend a lot of time doing, which is purpose without speech, and dedicate themselves to raping the women and tearing down anything taller than themselves.
asciilifeform: afaik we all here went to kindergarten, read of herr nietzsche's slave morality, etc..
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sometimes i suspect you might have been the only one at your kindergarten :)
asciilifeform: http://blog.jim.com/crypto/against-urbit/#comment-1241097 << handful of folx - get it.
asciilifeform: ( apparently mr mold was ordered by handlers to counter-attack, http://urbit.org/posts/objections )
mircea_popescu: anyway. that the matriarchy always builds some sort of reddit, which is to say the female hujra, pointless-blather-house is much of a historical necessity ; much like how the matriarchy's annoyance at ~what trump represents~ necessarily expressed itself in terms of fantastic "rape".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, if they have a controversy it means they exist rite ?
asciilifeform: the sop algo, aha.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557039 << this was a major point of contention during previous elections. guy published (ridiculous, web based xss) flaw in their voting thing, everyone threw a hissy fit
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 16:01 asciilifeform: ^ argentina mandates diebold voting machine and proclaims that publication of flaws is punishable
asciilifeform: i can picture some schmuck in casa rosada going, roughly, 'догоним и перегоним америку !'
asciilifeform: i wonder, did they actually import american hardware, or contracted to have own, 'industria argentina' dieboldtrons birthed ?
mircea_popescu: the schmuck in casa rosada is very much a dmitry ovsyannikov.
asciilifeform: 'TLDR: all of computing is a hoax. You can't compare a hoax to nothing. You can only compare it to all the other hoaxes.'
deedbot: http://thewhet.net/2016/the-best-things-in-eulora-are-grimy/ << The Whet - The Best Things in Eulora are Grimy
asciilifeform: 'Urbit is a total scamcoin. It's 100% premined TLDR: yeah. But at least it's not the DAO.'
mircea_popescu: the department of "here's words, they don't mean anything"
asciilifeform: eh back to the pickpockets; there is a difference between crackpot and charlatan.
mircea_popescu: there is a difference if and only if the difference can be shown.
trinque: what does what he believes in "his true self" matter?
trinque: is the timecube guy not lying?
asciilifeform: 0 to do with 'inner selves'
asciilifeform: but with the physical props of the chumpatron.
mircea_popescu: how do you aim to extract difference between crackpot and charlatan from examination of physical reality ?
asciilifeform: charlatan leaves behind corpses.
mircea_popescu: i am very much interested in this method, because i guess it could be extended to distinguish malicious from stupid slavegirls
mircea_popescu: ex post facto ? that's not much of a distinction.
asciilifeform: it isn't an earth-shakingly useful distinction, except in situations where you have a finite length of rope and gotta decide who goes first.
asciilifeform: in re thread from coupla days ago, i was somewhat surprised to discover that a recent homomorphatron scam, 'cryptoleq', is now promoted in a buncha places, incl. pediwikia, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer#Cryptoleq and probably elsewhere ) .
asciilifeform: based on the most obvious scheme, that i toyed with as a student, paillier (see oooooold l0gz)
asciilifeform: problem is that paillier dun multiply. or turingate at all.
asciilifeform: now guess how author 'solves.'
asciilifeform: (i was only able to see 'solution' from the shithub code, the paper is everywhere paywalled. and this somehow passes as a 'source' for pediwik et al..)
mircea_popescu: does it add ?
asciilifeform: nah, it 'solves' the same way all of the imbeciles in darpa's homomorphotron pig trough 'solved.'
asciilifeform: by plain making shit up.
asciilifeform: 'this multiplies, based on this-here conjecture, we suspect it to be strong...'
mircea_popescu: but does paillier add ?
asciilifeform: and the branches take place 'in plaintext'.
asciilifeform: (which is to say, are actual branches, visible to the naked eye, based on the outcome of the magic box)
asciilifeform: paillier adds, that's all it does.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557132 << guess why "whitening" is so important for the imperials.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 18:15 asciilifeform: in other vintage lulz, https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/surreptitiously.html#c1746484 << 'little birds' tell me that this actually happened. but no proof. anyone got electron microscope and too much free time ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you could construct a multiply ints function out of add ints
mircea_popescu: then you could construct all other math from this
mircea_popescu: after all algebra is constructive.
asciilifeform: except you need a crypto-branch.
asciilifeform: and if you had one, you'd be done.
mircea_popescu: explain this to me ?
asciilifeform: homomorphic-under-addition just means that you can take C1, C2, encrypted ints P1, P2, and get C3, encrypted sum, that decrypts later to the correct sum of P1+P2
asciilifeform: you cannot turingate with this, alone.
mircea_popescu: if my job is to obtain C1 * C2 I will chain it : ask A to produce P1 + P1 ; ask B to add P1 to his result. ask C to add P1 to that result and so on.
asciilifeform: instead, you would need something like F(C1, C2, C3) == P3 + max(P1, P2).
asciilifeform: this does not exist.
asciilifeform: and quite likely cannot exist.
mircea_popescu: what's the problem though ?
asciilifeform: make me a branch.
asciilifeform: you gotta have a branch.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi what you're on about. again : i want to multiply C1 by C2. I fire up the UCI, i ask C2 processes to add C1 to the result of the previous process adding C1 to the result of the...
asciilifeform: ~how many times~ to 'add C1' ??
asciilifeform: this dun work with paillier. or any other known scheme.
mircea_popescu: are you actually reading what i say or should i just stop ?
asciilifeform: read. several times.
mircea_popescu: let's try once more. so, I want to multiply 3 by 3. suppose the encrypted form of 3 is fgh.
mircea_popescu: i ask you to add fgh to fgh. you come back with qwe
mircea_popescu: i ask trinque to add fgh to qwe
mircea_popescu: he reports tty
mircea_popescu: i decrypt tty and have my 9.
asciilifeform: this is a card trick, not crypto.
mircea_popescu: because ?
asciilifeform: if you're locked in a room with'em, and see all of the steps, they know the 3.
mircea_popescu: don't CALL THINGS THINGS. show. don't tell. this isn't bad fanfic hour.
mircea_popescu: huh ?
asciilifeform: well they know that there were 3 additions.
mircea_popescu: maybe i ask a bunch of decoys
mircea_popescu: in other words : paillier in UCI over gossipd seems capable of bignum.
asciilifeform: this is rather like the 'send the new key and signature in one shot' thread. crypto that dun work if the enemy watches both of your hands, ain't crypto.
asciilifeform: promise, not protocol.
mircea_popescu: how is it like ?
asciilifeform: would you still think that rsa were strong, if it sufficed to, say, collect 90% of the ciphertext that's left your house, to derive the privkey ?
mircea_popescu: this is a very abstruse spoke off an interesting discussion. i dun really want to follow it. can we get back to the point ?
asciilifeform: aite. (i dun even dispute that a scheme where multiple parties are used for obfuscatory/smoke purposes ~can be useful~ - but it is not crypto in the normal sense. stego, perhaps.)
mircea_popescu: the scheme presented isn't in any sense what you describe.
asciilifeform: how not ? if i know that you delegated a total of 3 ops, i know that your multiplicand is <= 3.
asciilifeform: (and we still have not arrived at the question of how to branch)
mircea_popescu: but you can't know that i'm multiplying
asciilifeform: it isn't that i can say, with 100% certainty, that you multiplied; it is that i have != 0 bits of info re what you might be doing.
asciilifeform: this is a problem.
mircea_popescu: this is an illusion.
mircea_popescu: you present to yourself that you do, because you wish to. but in practice, you do not.
mircea_popescu: from the fact that A asks B to p-add P1 and P1 you can not distinguish whether P1 is being multiplied or added. that you can't distinguish between these two means you have 0 bits, not > 0 bits.
asciilifeform: if you know the total set of A-asked-B, you can put bounds on what was done.
mircea_popescu: except you can never know that total set.
mircea_popescu: this is a stronger guarantee than what rsa offers, incidentally.
asciilifeform: it is no guarantee of any kind.
asciilifeform: (neither has, of course, rsa.)
asciilifeform: crypto that dun work inside a 100% surrounded castle is not crypto.
mircea_popescu: it is. in order for you to get the whole set you must a) break rsa keys as numerous as the whole set and b) magically intercept all communications, even those happening outside of any set that includes you.
mircea_popescu: so its strength really is n*rsa + x
asciilifeform: this gedankenexperiment strikes me as quite similar to the one where you 'defeat' 2nd law of thermo. by dumping heat into a black hole, and similar.
mircea_popescu: i dun follow ?
mircea_popescu: http://blog.jim.com/culture/why-women-get-tattooed/#comments << in other news, holy shit check out the ream of experts in women.
asciilifeform: scheme that relies on a and b, in besieged castle, to communicate with a non-besieged C, is not crypto.
asciilifeform: let's temporarily leave this part for later, and posit that mircea_popescu can both add and multiply homomorphically, via whatever means. i'd like to hear how he carries out the branching.
phf: "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin with the first modern group of women to get tattoos [...]"
trinque: mircea_popescu is afaik proposing the communication of these is encrypted; asciilifeform is seeing them transmitted in teh bare
mircea_popescu: i'm not interested in the branching, will be happy to have a bignum machine that's securely separable via uci.
trinque: if not I don't see how alf says every single comm between all peers gets intercepted readably
mircea_popescu: trinque he has a serious issue with things that i don't yet fully grok, but i can not presently distinguish from this irrational meltdown and the irrational meltdown on the gossipd spec.
mircea_popescu: for all i know the guy has a point ; but we've not to date managed to put it in terms i can read.
asciilifeform: i would rather leave it as exercise to the patient reader, mircea_popescu et al, than press it
asciilifeform: either it will make sense - or not
asciilifeform: 'chewing scenery' - will not help.
trinque: this metaphor fart fog is ridicuous
mircea_popescu: anyway - we shall never again find ourselves "in a closed castle".
mircea_popescu: this is a fundamental strategical choice, and it is not getting reviewed. which is why there isn't a geographical republic.
asciilifeform: can't speak for other folx, but i personally sit in a kettle.
mircea_popescu: this has no bearing. it was "all" not "one"
mircea_popescu: every one is always going to be representable as "in a kettle".
asciilifeform: how does this not reduce to 'all in a kettle'..?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556932 << i started chipping at the code to get the old log support working, probably a couple of days worth of work
a111: Logged on 2016-10-19 23:51 mircea_popescu: btw phf did you load the old archives yet ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if one "reduced" to all then set theory would be a funny place indeed.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, was this jim fellow ever invited over ?
asciilifeform: i only today dug him up...
mircea_popescu: ima leave him a comment
asciilifeform: good idea.
asciilifeform: btw i've been trying to come up with useful scheme standing on paillier, for >decade now, and if mircea_popescu writes one, i promise to read it.
mircea_popescu: i jus' did, and best i can see it is sufficient, and how we'll do stuff like rsa encryption/decryption over uci once gossipd is here.
asciilifeform: if it relies on my being able to send packet from my house without it being immediately logged, some fraction of the time, then i personally cannot much profit from the scheme.
asciilifeform: (and if i could! wouldn't need crypto at all. just shamir's secret-splitting algo...)
asciilifeform: other, unrelated observation, is that delegating computation with a homomorphotron is only +ev if you spend fewer cycles to encipher 'the question' and decipher 'the answer' than it would have taken you to carry out the entire computation in your own comp
asciilifeform: which is you you need the branch
trinque: hm, perhaps the problem is one is thinking of completely untrustworthy flat topography of grey-goo nodes, and the other, in-wot nodes?
asciilifeform: if i have to do 6 bignum mults myself, to ask my partner to homomorphicate 1 bignum mult, i am losing.
mircea_popescu: well, here's some lulz http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/vdlxv/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: anyway, comment sent.
asciilifeform: 'the game', in that case, 'isn't worth the candles'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform packet may be logged, this dun matter.
asciilifeform: wow, d00d nuked comments entirely?!
mircea_popescu: notrly. just can't handle html.
asciilifeform: prolly the usual overcompensation for spamolade.
mircea_popescu: i think he'd greatly benefit from mp-wp, but anyway
asciilifeform: (this might be in the l0gz, but asciilifeform's own private, abortive, and ~entirely pointless attempt to 'invent bitcoin' in 2005-6 involved 'homomorphotron' (did not at the time know the term, or of anyone else's work on subj) that simulates 'martian bank' as ordinary computer program but somehow executed 'crypto-blinded' by multitude of independent machines, with the aggregate behaving correctly so long as collusion is below lampo
asciilifeform: rt's threshold)
asciilifeform: ('martian bank' being simply a naive abstraction of 'idealizes swiss bank', where money supply is constant, and i can send from account a1 can send to a2 if and only if i have the privkey for a1, and double-spend - impossible, etc.)
mircea_popescu: anyway. the main problem with the algo described being that if i want to multiply 2^2^7-1 with 2^2^11-1 i'm stuck requesting 340282366920938463463374607431768211455 discrete additions, which isn't worth doing in any possible universe.
mircea_popescu: but these have ~nothing to do with the weird objections raised.
asciilifeform: nah, this one is fixable
mircea_popescu: maybe fixable
asciilifeform: you shift-add.
asciilifeform: how do you imagine your cpu mults.
mircea_popescu: yes but even then
mircea_popescu: it could in principle end up too much back and forth.
asciilifeform: you only need log2(N) additions, to mult.
mircea_popescu: sure. log2(340282366920938463463374607431768211455) = 128. which may still be too much
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, why too much
asciilifeform: 'how many bugs shall we tolerate!?' 'seven!'
mircea_popescu: the overhead is : i encrypt 1 number, and communicate 127 numbers to 127 people then their responses to 127 people.
asciilifeform: this - gets painful, quickly.
asciilifeform bbl - meat
asciilifeform: unrelated to any of this, i recently went on a dig re crackpot altcoins, and was again disappointed, much of the phase space was never explored. for instance, it does not appear that anyone ever tried a 'captain kidd' alt
asciilifeform: i.e. one where all of the coin is premined, but allocated into 'chests', published as privkeys enciphered in such a way as to be bruteforceable with reasonable effort
asciilifeform: possibly this is analogous to eulora's 'copper' ?
asciilifeform: (i am almost wholly ignorant of how the latter mechanically works - so possibly not)
asciilifeform: the cryptographic mega-puzzler would be re how 'ck coin' could be 'provably fair' (i.e. the ciphertexts provably represent privkeys containing the entire monetary base, in aggregate )
asciilifeform: as i see it , this is not satisfactorily solvable, the author cannot prove that he did not retain a crib sheet to the keyz.
asciilifeform: (and incidentally this is a problem shared with bitcoin, which may conceivably have been authored by someone with a pill for sha2.)
asciilifeform: ^ linux privesc since 2.6.22 (circa '07)
thestringpuller: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/RivestShamirWagner-timelock.pdf << is what I read back in 2012 on timelock puzzles
asciilifeform: the basic concept is at least as old as ol' capt. kidd.
asciilifeform: so no one should be excited.
thestringpuller: well the paper is from 1996, it was just intriguing how familiar to PoW it was
asciilifeform: the problem is demonstrably unsolvable in the general case.
asciilifeform: because how the fuck do you show that you have not 'pre-solved' the puzzle.
asciilifeform: whatever form it takes.
asciilifeform: 'proof of work', like 'symmetric crypto', does not in fact have a protocolic (vs promisetronic) existence !
asciilifeform: to put it in more familiar frame, there is no way to prove that the majority of the bitcoin hash rate is not in fact happening on a pocket comp.
asciilifeform: in some closet.
thestringpuller: iirc this was in 2012 logs, cause i remember you saying similar situation to "nLockTime" (altho we discovered more turds there upon further inspection)
asciilifeform: there is no 'trapdoor problem' for which 'intrinsic hardness' has been demonstrated.
asciilifeform: and quite likely there can be none.
asciilifeform: (for one thing, the actual existence of trapdoors has not been demonstrated.)
thestringpuller: you can't prove the trap door function doesn't exist cause you can't prove you don't know the keys to the puzzle
asciilifeform: the burden of proof is on whoever asserts existence.
thestringpuller: the only way to do that would be through some kinda consensus mechanism
thestringpuller: everyone involved somehow consents the puzzle is legit...
asciilifeform: ~appears~ to do so.
asciilifeform: if i owned the closet hasher, i would also carry right along 'consenting', aha.
ben_vulpes: but for how long?
thestringpuller: well isn't solving a block the same as finding a time delay crypto puzzle?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: until dead ?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: 'locktime' has 0 to do with crypto
ben_vulpes: wait, misunderstood. hasher, not pill.
asciilifeform: it was a feature that derps pretend is in bitcoin, but never made it in, made fools of themselves
thestringpuller: i kno that. we discussed in 2012. 4 year discussion now eh?
asciilifeform: because nobody reads the motherfucking code.
thestringpuller: point being seems like solution to trap door is similar to distributed PoW
asciilifeform: not even.
asciilifeform: there exists no proof that finding, e.g., sha2 collision, MUST take ~C cycles per.
thestringpuller: Ah. Atomically. Def. That's in the paper.
thestringpuller: "We have also discussed a
thestringpuller: way to use trusted agents to eciently enable timedrelease crypto "
asciilifeform: aficionados of 'trusted agent' - straight to paypalschwitz.
asciilifeform: into the ovens.
thestringpuller: Yea. hence brokenness. all a snore indeed.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the (very old) gedankenexperiment concerned 'what if solving hashes is substantially cheaper than we chumps believe it to be, and promulgator of the coin knows the pill'
asciilifeform: it is a form of theoretically-undetectable 'premine'.
mircea_popescu: http://blog.jim.com/culture/how-to-not-be-offensive/#comment-1442563 << dpood ever show up ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557293 << the question eschewed, of course, is why "modern". and what;s it supposed to mean. very strange sort of amateur anthropology.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 20:18 phf: "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin with the first modern group of women to get tattoos [...]"
mircea_popescu: anyway. when i was a kid, tattoos meant a thing and that thing only : she fucks. there exists no majority age in romania, a girl's a woman the moment she starts doing it, which can happen as early as 12, though as a rule it's more around 15.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, no hymen = fair game. and as there was need for easy visual identification to know whom to invite to parties... the sluts got inked.
mircea_popescu: this i suspect is the ancient, tribal, functional usage. "modern" my left foot.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was there a typical tat ?
asciilifeform: (for this purpose)
mircea_popescu: well some things were important, such as : did she get it somewhere her parents might see ?
phf: sort of like notches on spitfires
mircea_popescu: but this is from a very insular culture, where for instance lesbos had it very easy : "does she wear anklet ? talk to her."
phf: asciilifeform: do you have some of your very old logs, can you grep for "sawdust in the gearbox, apparently timeless." and let me know what timestamp on that is?
asciilifeform: phf: 1sec
mircea_popescu: also at a time and place where listening to depeche mode wasn't merely happenstance but more cultural identification and political statement than a trump tshirt
mircea_popescu: and i'd have busted your face on the street.
asciilifeform: phf: Apr 25 17:36:18
phf: would you also happen to remember which timezone that would be? :D
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, they never got semantic, a la ru prison tattoos. most girls got what today'd be called "tribal" shit
asciilifeform: phf: EST
mircea_popescu: ie non-figurative stylisized pattern
asciilifeform: (answering 'what year' is O(N) because idiocy)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in so far as i can tell, modern american tatoo is ~always ~meaningless.
asciilifeform: even among prisoners, there are only 2-3 usefully distinct types.
mircea_popescu: not really. facedots get circles once you finally got the fucker, for isntance.
phf: there's an hour disparity between mp's tmsr-logs and btcbase, so i need to figure that one out..
asciilifeform: phf: they dun have dst in mircea_popesculandia
mircea_popescu: i don't use summer right
phf: oh right gmt uses daylight
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what was the face-busting cultural identification earlier ?
mod6: DM shirt
mod6: rightly so
asciilifeform: well yes
asciilifeform: but on whom
asciilifeform: hungarians ?
asciilifeform: communists ?
asciilifeform: jewmasons ?
mircea_popescu: also for the sake of humanity, "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin" is a broken sentence. a teleology is any theory of purpose in realia. so you could say "any attempt if describing the teleology of this phenomena should probably begin" or "the teleology of this phenomena should be expressed in terms of" etc. it dun work like "description" or "philosophy", it works like for "substance" or "relevancy".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform faggots.
mircea_popescu: see, pre 2000, romania had VERY strong antibodies against what jim&friends discuss in that turkey article.
mircea_popescu: much as the muslim world also does.
asciilifeform: in ru -- still
mircea_popescu: actually i recall ru went through a very acute phase
asciilifeform: much to the lament of jurov et al
mircea_popescu: a sort of localbrew punk/skinhead of the 70s
mircea_popescu: spooked the party even
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557323 << possibly the implication of wot not fully digested as of yet.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 20:28 trinque: hm, perhaps the problem is one is thinking of completely untrustworthy flat topography of grey-goo nodes, and the other, in-wot nodes?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557353 << well, it's sad, but i can't say i'm disappointed, because i had no expectation otherwise. the psychology of the alt-coin purveyor is very much as exemplified by that covertress chick : ambitious, mommy told her she's special which she believes, and "problems" "can always be overcome". preferably - by someone else. you know, what's washington gonna do about it.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 22:49 asciilifeform: unrelated to any of this, i recently went on a dig re crackpot altcoins, and was again disappointed, much of the phase space was never explored. for instance, it does not appear that anyone ever tried a 'captain kidd' alt
mircea_popescu: these aren't usually the same people as come up with anything worth reading.
asciilifeform: eh i did not even say it would be necessarily worthwhile
asciilifeform: just that it would be something other than the usual snore
Framedragger: trinque: i know i know. (i'm young to answer q)
mircea_popescu: the most symptomatic point being that they absolutely fucking never have any kind of reason to dislike anything. ever saw an altcoin head meaningfully discuss the drawbacks in alternatives ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what are you, like 26 ?
mircea_popescu: they're on doge team or ripple team like other people support coventry or wolverhampton. it's to their dumb head immoral to switch teams because the others got better players. ON THE CONTRARY.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557355 << yes. i very much claim that type for eulora. it's been done, turns out you just dunno where to look :)
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 22:51 asciilifeform: possibly this is analogous to eulora's 'copper' ?
asciilifeform: it relies on a server, neh ?
mircea_popescu: less so than eg ethereum.
asciilifeform: well eulora afaik never claimed p2ptronicity
asciilifeform: it is honest.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557358 << kinda what makes bothering with p2p in this particular subspace pointless.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 22:53 asciilifeform: as i see it , this is not satisfactorily solvable, the author cannot prove that he did not retain a crib sheet to the keyz.
asciilifeform: aaand yet the alts where author simply pocketed the monetarybase and distributed by hand from own pocket - were laughed off.
asciilifeform: (e.g., urbit!)
mircea_popescu: you mean generally or here ? iirc urbit was eagerly followed for 3-4 weeks here, until it became obvious the author is technically inept and the following he has entirely disinterested in doing any useful work.
mircea_popescu: then the mocking begun.
asciilifeform: was interesting, when it was interesting, ~in spite of~, not because, of the premine.
mircea_popescu: which ties right into the above discussion of altcoin heads (they can't meaningfully criticize means they can't think) and more generally in the difference between republican forum and imperial forum (eg, reddit). the latter exists specifically so no work is done.
asciilifeform: (and was not merely premined, but the 'btcphobic' mr mold had 'coins', of which there are only 256, die ! after 9 moves.)
mircea_popescu: heh. ~equal to us level inflation.
mircea_popescu: incidentally - linux, also premined.
mircea_popescu: the objection never was as far as i can discern that linus did it (unless of course one is to give voice to the "feminist" cows), but that he seems to have given the keys away
asciilifeform: is 'linux' here the proggy, or the microphone+podium ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "premined" generalized here to mean, "you can do any work you want - unless recognized by authority it dun exist".
mircea_popescu: as opposed to you know, bitcoin, where if you do the hash you get the coin, anyone else be damned.
asciilifeform: well, 'do the hash' + 'not get orphaned'
mircea_popescu: yes, there's no such thing as perfect bitcoin wrt work functions.
asciilifeform: the orbit of my personal inner altcrackpot is largely around 'mining is a bug'.
mircea_popescu: i'm unconvinced.
asciilifeform: there are, theoretically, schemes for mineless coin that do not resolve to any obviously idiotic or centralized thing.
asciilifeform: hey if i were 'convinced' - would say.
mircea_popescu: unless they "tattoo" so to speak, ie, burn perfectly fine fat, they can't work.
mircea_popescu: teh gods demand their sacrifice.
asciilifeform: it much depends on what is 'work'.
mircea_popescu: heat waste, fo sho.
mircea_popescu: same meaning here as in law 2.
asciilifeform: it also depends on what is a 'coin' fundamentally.
asciilifeform: recall the multiverse 'coin' ?
mircea_popescu: a coin is a quanta, really. apparently for some reason quantization is mandatory.
asciilifeform: well not only a quanta
asciilifeform: but, in the customary picture, something scarce.
mircea_popescu: no coin is scarce.
asciilifeform: scarce in the 'nobody is obviously wielding an infinite hose of it' sense.
mircea_popescu: the fact that the world existed before all of them should be sufficient proof.
mircea_popescu: it's scarce like time is scarce - you can't make more, just squander what you got.
mircea_popescu: but there's naught more abundant in nature than time.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: mine is 'difficulty is nonsensical'
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes why ?
mircea_popescu: difficulty is a proxy for "are we there yet ?" ; once half the energy available is burned to mine, we're there yet. the difficulty equiv of this can be calculated.
ben_vulpes: because not tied to a finite amount.
ben_vulpes: (since we're talking crackpot alts)
mircea_popescu: of course it's tied ?
ben_vulpes: totally different thing.
ben_vulpes: the infinite to bitcoin's finite, if you will.
mircea_popescu: you'll have to go into proper detail i guess.
ben_vulpes: crackpot alt orbit may not even be stable!
asciilifeform: 'mining is a bug' because, as mircea_popescu even appeared to agree earlier, it is promisetronic.
asciilifeform: accomplishes ~same result as author of coin personally handing out the monetary base, but messier and more expensively.
mircea_popescu: anyway, my interest in alts is like my interest in orc-language "academia" and random gaggles of nubile sluts.
mircea_popescu: who knows, maybe a person may be found, somehow, somewhere, in all this muck.
asciilifeform: nah. afaik it is a dead field.
asciilifeform: like the rest of crypto.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's the other angle of it though. mining forces you to burn half your milk.
trinque: how the hell is it the same result?!
trinque: it costs something
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which is moronic if there is any way to avoid it.
mircea_popescu: the bug is the feature.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nope, it's not. it's fundamental.
mircea_popescu: happiness gotta hurt.
trinque: how the fuck, economics does not work that way
trinque: it's a *coin*
asciilifeform: trinque: see thread. mining is not provably costing all of the participants anything.
asciilifeform: you - yes, me - yes ; fella with the sha2 pill - ~0.
trinque: yes and I can factor rsa in my head
trinque: where is the evidence
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that part is the most dubious, but hey.
asciilifeform: trinque: i suspect that our null hypotheses differ.
mircea_popescu: besides, at some point we'll get rid of sha2 in trb, and then we'll know.
asciilifeform: that'll simply reset the problem.
asciilifeform: with new protagonist.
asciilifeform: which is why nobody's pulled it off yet.
mircea_popescu: kinda why it's not an imperative yet, or any hurry.
trinque: I would have the greatest self control on earth if I found more gold tomorrow than had ever been mined and this did not soon become apparent to everyone.
trinque: and it would have the same effect
trinque: look how bitcoin rips through USG bureaucracies, but this sha2 pill yet hides?
mircea_popescu: a lot can stay hidden.
asciilifeform: no alt stands a remote change against 'grandfather's pistol' unless the author also discovers and demonstrates a 'proof of nonchiseling' .
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform unless something starts burning, at any rate.
asciilifeform: trinque: 'joseki' and 'shillelagh' are also hidden.
trinque: mircea_popescu: while it stays hidden how does it affect the value of gold?
asciilifeform: trinque: ditto the amd signing key from last month's thread.
mircea_popescu: subjective value, as judged by you ? it doesn't. objective value, as in, the ship of state is being sailed by idiots into the shoals ? 100%.
trinque: the claim was that infinite gold/coin/etc shows itself through inflation
asciilifeform: only if dumped
mircea_popescu: it creates a disparity of power between two identified groups that is not backed by ontological superiority.
asciilifeform: 'there are no alchemists because an alchemist could not POSSIBLY keep it in his pants' is no argument.
trinque: nor is "usg shall surely be able to increase interest rates to mop up the money it printed"
mircea_popescu: if men are better and women worship men, the situation is stable and prosperous. if men are better but women discover they can fuck it all up by gathering together and engaging in the wail (term of art), then society collapses
mircea_popescu: this was the mechanism fucking babylon fell by, and in the intervening 5k years it worked like a charm every single time.
trinque: the free heat shall leak
mircea_popescu: the rate is controllable by the owner though.
mircea_popescu: see, this is how the cunt that runs on perl works. "oh, dick moving inside is detectable".
trinque: then no-mining is possible with a philospher king
mircea_popescu: yes, it is. and if it moves at a slow enough pace you'll enjoy it.
trinque: asciilifeform: ftr the argument wasn't about whether kept in pants; it was that if kept in pants, might as well not exist
trinque: but I see that either construction ignores fucking privately
mircea_popescu: yeah, it wouldn't be kept in pants THAT well is the problem. your argument is solid in principle, but there's a crack in it.
thestringpuller: i can see your bulge!
asciilifeform: trinque: idea is that a unit of hashicity might cost you, i, and 1,000,001 others -- H, but might cost 'satoshi' 1/1,000,001H.
asciilifeform: can be kept in pants arbitrarily well.
asciilifeform: like any other alchemy.
asciilifeform: esp. if it is one man's secret.
mircea_popescu: anyway, if mining is a bug, then the philosopher king is a backdoor.
mircea_popescu: experience shows it's perfectly fine to have a philosopher king, however utterly suicidal to have a philosopher king's throne. bolt is fine, nut will kill you.
asciilifeform: 'monetary base handed out by hand' equates to an evaporating throne
mircea_popescu: in principle at least yes
asciilifeform: so potentially works.
mircea_popescu: it's certainly how eg medieval japan coin worked out.
asciilifeform: any imperial coin, really.
mircea_popescu: no i mean, "medieval japan" AS a coin. which it was.
mircea_popescu: everything's a coin.
asciilifeform: ah as in europe.
mircea_popescu: you got however much worth of koku production. well there yo ugo.
mircea_popescu: much like the medieval eu "here's three weirs and a village fulla sluts. you're a knight now."
trinque: I kinda see how wot relationships could confer certain amount of newly "mined" coin, like ^
asciilifeform: trinque: see the 'multiverse gossipcoin' old thread
asciilifeform: was about, largely, this.
mircea_popescu: trinque the whole reason wot and forum are at the basis of republic is this orthogonality which reinforces the bit-coin
trinque pulls up to reread
mircea_popescu: which is how we prevailed historically, against all the other groups
mircea_popescu: who were backed, at best, by orthogonal idiocy.
trinque: best damned human sort function, seems like.
thestringpuller: oh man. cryptofeudalism here we come.
asciilifeform: trinque: it was a crackpot algo which i suggested, ages ago, where there is no objective coin, but instead, e.g., mircea_popescu can mint any amount (with the total base being public) of mircea_popescucoin, which in turn trinque accepts for certain rate of trinquecoin, etc, etc., integrated with wot
asciilifeform: sorta how fiatola works already at the sovereign level.
asciilifeform: but less promisetronic (public, e.g., base.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is more or less ripple.
asciilifeform: iirc ripple was promisetronic though.
asciilifeform: i.e. a cynical scam.
mircea_popescu: i did not like ripple, as i don't like this, because it requires a level of financial acumen that is not available in the general population
mircea_popescu: this would be the ultimate in assembly line phding
asciilifeform: hey i never learned to fly a jet fighter;
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, sure, it was a cancer on top of an avorton. but this doesn't change the fact that even if you cleaned up the tumor, you'd have an aborted fetus.
asciilifeform: doesn't mean that jet fighters are useless.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's worse than that : it's too late for you to learn now.
asciilifeform: what is an ace pilot if not 'assemvly line phd'.
mircea_popescu: i do not wish to construct systems that much need, let alone require, or depend on, ace pilots.
asciilifeform: it is too late for grown men to learn damn near anything
asciilifeform: and, eh, 'v', or trb, or various other items contemplated here, fall much closer to the jet than to the tv set.
mircea_popescu: so they do. but not THAT far.
mircea_popescu: they're still things grown man could learn,
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding all the insistence grown man is usually seen putting in avoiding it
asciilifeform: 'general population' is barely qualified to operate a public shitter.
mircea_popescu: this is mostly because of deliberate stupidification - by clerics in the east, by "educators" ie clerics in the west.
mircea_popescu: general population is capable, as practically verified by my whip holding hand, to do all sorts of wholesome things.
asciilifeform: how did it go, 'horse that can count to five is a remarkable horse, but not a remarkable mathematician'
mircea_popescu: there is some of that, of course.
asciilifeform: to briefly go up the stack, 'gossipcoin' is not useless by virtue of being a mach10 jet. i cannot fly it. but it is conceivable that mircea_popescu could. and/or, folks not even yet born, could.
mircea_popescu: no, the problem is that the only way to find out "couldn't" is by their crashing it, and the whole construction has a low crash tolerance.
mircea_popescu: think of "race cars on space station".
asciilifeform: what would it even mean for a multiversal per-operator altcoin to 'crash' ?
asciilifeform: you can have a car crash.
asciilifeform: but ~cars~ cannot crash.
asciilifeform: as a class.
mircea_popescu: !~lemon market
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Error: "lemon" is not a valid command.
mircea_popescu: !#s lemon market
asciilifeform: eh we already have one of those.
mircea_popescu: and yes, cars can and do crash all the time
trinque: maybe that gossipcoin, but what of the one where coins exist, are minted according to position in the wot-graph?
mircea_popescu: hence symbolics.
asciilifeform: trinque: consider elaborating
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was expecting you to mention... dirigibles
mircea_popescu: but no, think : the vertical monitor.
mircea_popescu: "cars" have crashed and burned more times than it's worth mentioning
mircea_popescu: where is ac power ? where is etc etc
trinque: a gentleman's weight according to his ratings in the wot determine the rate at which coin mints to his key
mircea_popescu: idiots were hoping bitcoin will go same way. who knows, it just might've.
mircea_popescu: trinque you're thinking of a wot that doesn't exist.
trinque: how so?
mircea_popescu: it's not a centralized thing, you're trying to build a string out of a vector.
asciilifeform: trinque: http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it << oblig.
asciilifeform: 'The Web of Trust is not, as the name would seem to imply, an oilfield in which trust plays the role of oil, and you deploy some apparatuses and other devices to extract the trust therewith.'
mircea_popescu: wrong datatype, "wot" may not be used as "basis for central behaviour"
trinque: doesn't have to be centralized.
trinque: there's no center in what I described
mircea_popescu: not in the sense of "unethical to do so", but in the sense of practically impossible.
mircea_popescu: then how does coin work ?
mircea_popescu: understand, a coin must be centralized to exist.
mircea_popescu: because it works with a market, which is the definition of centralization, "all good things flow to the city [to participate in the marketplace]"
asciilifeform: unless it is a 'gossiptronic coin', as discussed earlier, but the applicability of the name 'coin' is then questionable
mircea_popescu: it is improper to call that a coin
asciilifeform: i'd call it an 'ob'
asciilifeform: to steal erik frank russel's name.
mircea_popescu: you could call it a semen, seeing how it's pretty much exactly "how much cock i'd suck"
mircea_popescu: a problem female teenagers have struggled with for eons, because... well... expecting wrong data type.
asciilifeform: (1950s writer, had space folk using something quite like subj)
asciilifeform: a certain qty of 'ob' from, e.g., brothel, could indeed refer to a certain number of litres of spooje swallowed, etc.
mircea_popescu: no no it's a much finer point
mircea_popescu: it'd be literally a measure of social intercourse
trinque: dunno if I like being named governor of brittania being a matter of spooge guzzling.
mircea_popescu: how do you suppose eleanor got aquitanie ?
mircea_popescu: anyway. i was speaking metaphorically ok!
trinque: anyhow it's an interesting idea, but I figure wild redefinitions of money run the risk of angering the gods.
mircea_popescu: well, how'd one go ?
mircea_popescu: http://www.joeydevilla.com/2016/10/18/hey-america-youre-great/ << in other lulz.
trinque: seems relationship is the conduit over which money flows; deciding one day that arteries shall be blood because after all they're so related...
trinque: moving to Tampa indeed
a111: Logged on 2016-03-06 15:01 asciilifeform: or we can lift from a mircea_popescu article, 'Another aspect is that new blocks are mined by one group (miners) but have to be stored in perpetuity by another group (nodes). This creates a situation where X (users) pay Y (miners) to inconvenience Z (nodes), which is unsustainable not to mention sheer nonsense.'
asciilifeform: (possibly there were others, but afaik this was the canonical.)
mircea_popescu: this part of mining is a bug, except it is evidently no part of mining
asciilifeform: mining is a solution to specific set of problems. just like pressurizing your house with sarin and walking around in a teflon suit is one possible answer to rats and mice.
asciilifeform: (tru story! ru chemistry students would occasionaly make, e.g., sarin, as a very effective answer to... rats, mice, whatever else infested the cellar..)
mircea_popescu: yes, but the problem mining solves is very strictly "make it impossible for hillary to pretend she matters"
asciilifeform: potentially this mouse is solvable without sarin.
mircea_popescu: or whatever other equivalent, that dumb bitch who was born a dude and tried to run off with coreboot
asciilifeform: and ditto.
asciilifeform: (in the end you get sarin-resistant mice. this is not even a physical impossibility, iirc mongoose needed an elephant's dose to fall down)
asciilifeform: quite likely the current crop of miners is already this.
mircea_popescu: mongoose is specifically toxin resistant though. it's what it does for a living
mircea_popescu: like africans in africa.
asciilifeform: he has slightly nonstandard ACHE and number of other ferments.
asciilifeform: (we had mongoose ache crystallographied 1 floor down from my chair, at one point, can't recall precisely why, it had already been done elsewhere. possibly it was in-complex)
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, jamelle bouie (slate "chief political correspondent", if you didn't give a shit before) along with everyone else is damned pissed at trump. "The act of conceding, in other words, is vital to the functioning of democracy. It confers legitimacy on the winner of an election, giving him or her a chance to govern. To refuse to concede, to deny that legitimacy, is to undermine our democratic foundations."
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would ANYONE confer legitimacy on the usg ffs.
mod6: stockholm syndrome
mircea_popescu: either that or all the checks it keeps writing.
mod6: indeed, both.
trinque: guy later said, "I'll respect the results if I win"
mircea_popescu: was pretty lulzy.
mircea_popescu: oh how he toys with America's heart ; and how that slutty heart does throb for still more toyings.
mircea_popescu is pretty happy at all this "oh noes, trump won't promise to admit defeat if he loses", because all signals point to a complete rehash of the brexit thing, whereby clinton is credited with ~50% of popular vote and 55% of electoral colege, but realises 35% of popular vote and 30% of electoral college.
mircea_popescu: and THEN the libertards WILL STILL WHINE about "election was stolen"
mircea_popescu: because when they do it, it's all good. just when others do it it's "an attack on our democracy"
mircea_popescu: our being the keyword there, not democracy as the naive reader may imagine
trinque: hell, when the hairdo's justice department gets done with them, who'll be left to run their machine? I guess after that it's bernie 2.0
trinque: people talk about him killing the republican party but if anything that's rumbling about the clinton foundation is true, and he wins, it's going to kill both
mircea_popescu: i don't see he has any way to extricate himself from sending ~half the dem party machine to jail
mircea_popescu: of course, this already happened once to it, back when it was centered on tammany hall, and it survived.
mircea_popescu: the history thereof is interesting - dems were actually a pretty respectable party back when democratic meant something ; then the progressive cripple showed up and smashed it.
asciilifeform: tammany -- respectable??!
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> everything's a coin. << AHA, the Qntra "altcoin" tag