assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4450 @ 0.0005633 = 2.5067 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26707 @ 0.00056327 = 15.0433 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:12:28; mod6: for some reason, this guys friggin thing apparently wont verify, except for me. i seem to be the only one who has a gpg & his key that'll verify this damn thing
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:24:10; mod6: if someone knows what the problem is here, please submit. if testing is need, lets do it. all those things. telling me to take a break, or calm down, or take a vacation is not a solution.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 04:45:43; asciilifeform: also am i the only one to whom 'unbanked' evokes a way of connecting memory ?
mircea_popescu: us-style retail banking is an abominable pile of nonsense the likes of which nightmares are made of.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10798 @ 0.00056646 = 6.1166 BTC [+]
punkman: asciilifeform: afaik we don't presently have a vtron that is capable of digesting everything incl. the old crud. << my vtron digests conflicting patches
punkman: asciilifeform: (you will have to rename the dir manually, because DIFF IS RETARDED) << I'll do a punkdiff release this week
phf: my v can beat up your v
BingoBoingo: nuts, gotta protect them if you've got em'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53552 @ 0.00056431 = 30.2199 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23716 @ 0.0005623 = 13.3355 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29800 @ 0.00056151 = 16.733 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16750 @ 0.00056206 = 9.4145 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60000 @ 0.00056151 = 33.6906 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27860 @ 0.00056078 = 15.6233 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15202 @ 0.00055919 = 8.5008 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57598 @ 0.00055865 = 32.1771 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54088 @ 0.00055861 = 30.2141 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.0005599 = 12.1498 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38950 @ 0.0005586 = 21.7575 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56600 @ 0.00055813 = 31.5902 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.0005601 = 11.314 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: that bet is going to surprise some people
ben_vulpes: alphago can "win" with handicap of 12 stones and that bet goes green
ben_vulpes: unless mp^H^Hmods decide 'overall' has some magical meaning
adlai: so "some people" made an ass out of them and himself
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16300 @ 0.00055935 = 9.1174 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67200 @ 0.00056242 = 37.7946 BTC [+] {2}
mats: i don't see why there would be a handicap now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97621 @ 0.00056802 = 55.4507 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53400 @ 0.00056679 = 30.2666 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38673 @ 0.00056929 = 22.0162 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76073 @ 0.00056944 = 43.319 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38100 @ 0.00057002 = 21.7178 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60219 @ 0.00056935 = 34.2857 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14997 @ 0.00056506 = 8.4742 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6437 @ 0.00055919 = 3.5995 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68902 @ 0.0005579 = 38.4404 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43120 @ 0.00055889 = 24.0993 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00055768 = 3.123 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> that bet is going to surprise some people << "overall" covers it imo
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11900 @ 0.00055768 = 6.6364 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14800 @ 0.00055861 = 8.2674 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7953 @ 0.00056231 = 4.4721 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18050 @ 0.00056859 = 10.263 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20719 @ 0.00056916 = 11.7924 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32850 @ 0.00056267 = 18.4837 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 117647 @ 0.00055821 = 65.6717 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51450 @ 0.00055739 = 28.6777 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3610 @ 0.00055708 = 2.0111 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29050 @ 0.00055661 = 16.1695 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 06:02:08; punkman: asciilifeform: (you will have to rename the dir manually, because DIFF IS RETARDED) << I'll do a punkdiff release this week
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> nor was the thing in any sense designed at all, really. << quite very much this.
mircea_popescu: i just don't see the gap between "cleanly covers corner cases" and "is turing complete" bridged.
mircea_popescu: you can't put a kernel in every single thing including the diff utility!
mircea_popescu: listen, if you say "diff should parse scheme" instead of "diff should be turing complete" people'd follow a lot easier.
mircea_popescu: i for instance judged that since you DON'T say the obvious, you specifically do not mean the obvious.
mircea_popescu: why'd i guess like when talking to 16yos on saturday night ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 188096 @ 0.00056155 = 105.6253 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: "The simplest way to generate a patch is to use diff -Naur (see Tips for Patch Producers), but you might be able to reduce the size of the patch by renaming or removing some files before making the patch. If the older version of the package contains any files that the newer version does not, or if any files have been renamed between the two versions, make a list of rm and mv commands for the user to execute in th
mircea_popescu: e old version directory before applying the patch. Then run those commands yourself in the scratch directory."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49500 @ 0.00057 = 28.215 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: in truth the situation here is that we don't even know much of the stuff we need until we need it,
mircea_popescu: nor do we know the banal names of banal things until after we've made them, because unlike posterity, we don't have the advantage OF FUCKING SANE ANTECESSORS.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform complete solutions are rarely best solutions tho. too heavy.
mircea_popescu: there's been this weirdo trend of (mostly anglo) girls getting worried about their labia minora being "wrong", mostly on account of thgere being a LOT of natural variation on that score, and anglo chicks being all weird and insecure and sexually inexperienced. plus of course the crazed marketing society, that feeds into all of the above.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40436 @ 0.00056906 = 23.0105 BTC [-]
polarbeard: re: my patches, I'm trying to keep an up to date version of them on my github trb repo, wouldn't mind submitting to the ml if somebody asks
polarbeard: because I'm marshalling per value type, not per hook type
polarbeard: I'm just encapsulating the functionality
polarbeard: this is not a vpatch, don't you see that?
polarbeard: so, what you're going to do with ts then?
polarbeard: I won't be adding unnecessary code to init.scm
polarbeard: I'll split the bug fixes into their own vpatches when the time comes
polarbeard: atm I just wanted to dump what I'm working for, to get constructive feedback
polarbeard: never, I'm not translating trb to scheme
polarbeard: so you embedded scheme for that reason?
polarbeard: yes, I'm not surprised that you have a different point of view, and I'm even pleased I think
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10937 @ 0.000569 = 6.2232 BTC [-]
polarbeard: it works well, but still simple hooks because only a single callback may be registered per hook, not sure yet if there will be need for callback management
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 15:39:46; asciilifeform:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411879 << imho this will have to be a thing that is solved in one Final Solution shot, with turing-complete diff. we can NOT have 1,001 incompatible hacked gnudiff variants floating around in attempted use, it is chaos and death by ants.
phf: dat patch, can take them to water, can't make them drink
jurov: asciilifeform: either it's 'can do all but X' or turing complete and thus with potentially unbounded runtime
jurov: also, you imply basically to expose all filesystem primitives to scheme, are they comprehensively and soundly defined?
jurov: i smell you'll eventually end with different presses in diff machines due to different filesystem semantics
jurov: who're you negrating now?
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:07:32; mircea_popescu: there's been this weirdo trend of (mostly anglo) girls getting worried about their labia minora being "wrong", mostly on account of thgere being a LOT of natural variation on that score, and anglo chicks being all weird and insecure and sexually inexperienced. plus of course the crazed marketing society, that feeds into all of the above.
jurov: while you slept, "modern" filesystem implementors deemed to fit to reorder operations to improve performance
phf: i recall riastradh making an srfi proposal for a minimum subset of filesystem operations. could just implement it for tinyscheme
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16450 @ 0.00055661 = 9.1562 BTC [-]
jurov: lol looky now i'm the one to predict crapocalypse
jurov: which fs is sane? which mount options?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00055655 = 3.5619 BTC [-] {2}
phf: added patch highlight to btcbase (got tired of trying to visually locate patches in the graph)
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 432.66, vol: 13065.58845587 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 432.623, vol: 11650.44569 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 436.5, vol: 54646.13980057 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 440.0, vol: 0.60533968 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 442.360947, vol: 67064.74420000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 432.1104, vol: 898.75107699 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 425.870649, vol: 71.32973054 | Volume-weighted last (1 more message)
gribble: Current Blocks: 399479 | Current Difficulty: 1.6349165490895926E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 401183 | Next Difficulty In: 1704 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 12 hours, 34 minutes, and 17 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45150 @ 0.00055747 = 25.1698 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97155 @ 0.00056091 = 54.4952 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: so with that build script, i'm thinking just take out the curl & --verify of that stupid .sign file.
mod6: still will check the hash of the buildroot artifact.
mod6: gonna try that out locally here.
mod6: i guess, the other good news to that is you wont need to import that rando's guy's key into your keyring. still would need mine, alf & trinque's tho.
danielpbarron: oh mod6, with a fresh .bitcoin/ directory, your new thing seems to work fine
kakobrekla: logs tell me no one missed me, great :)
jurov: and assbot's stuff is swollen
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu's javascript also doesn't work in every browser
ben_vulpes: mod6: perhaps hard code the hashes from korsgaard's signature and verify those?
phf: ben_vulpes: they are like md5 and sha1
kakobrekla had a blast snowboarding the prime slopes of Dolomites region of Alps
mod6: i think this was actually discussed quite some time ago. i dont remember what the sentiment was exactly. but i think it was like "meh"
mod6: danielpbarron: ok thanks for the update
mod6: anyway, i guess i don't mind, i can add a part where we check the SHA1 & MD5 of the buildroot artifact and then continue to verify that .sign file.
phf: kakobrekla: i went camping in the Appalachian last weekend, -20c w/ winds, but it was awesome. i did just enough trash talking about russian blood to come down with a flu by thursday...
kakobrekla: meanwhile i was the only person in sauna yesterday evening
phf: as soon as i can move again, i'm going to make it to russian&turkish baths in nyc. they don't really do saunas on the east coast, but that baths place is awesome
ben_vulpes: mod6: while there's no harm in checking the .sign, i don't know what it buys us
ben_vulpes: also that signature is disturbingly short
kakobrekla: really no saunas? whats the deal with that?
mod6: ben_vulpes: yeah, i dunno what the deal is with it, seems to not work exactly as expected.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10150 @ 0.00056778 = 5.763 BTC [+] {2}
phf: i hnfi. these people do "spas", but the sauna part is typically a joke
mod6: im gonna look again at what happens with 1.4.19 & that sign file.
phf: there's literally 4 places in the entire virgnia-connecticut stretch. maybe there's something up in Massachusetts. there's "east european" places ran by russians but with a lot of turks, etc. and then there's korean baths. but koreans frown on cold plunges, so they would usually have a tepid shower/pool
kakobrekla: im fine with shower only as long as you can set the temp to whatever you want
phf: yeah, korean places are not bad, but i know only of one that caters specifically to koreans (i.e. good heat), a lot of them are western oriented so massage and facials and such
ben_vulpes: ha wow did the shitgnomes snip that mod6 ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64900 @ 0.0005694 = 36.9541 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: in here there seem to be .sign files for the .tar.gz's, but they seem to have .gpg's for the tar.bz2's
mod6: im gonna take a look at that instead.
mod6: ooh... not for our version :(
mod6: guess that only started with the version /after/ our version 2015.05
mod6: oh nm, looks like those are only there for an RC version?
mod6: heh, these guys built this huge thing, but their sign files only have SHA1 & MD5, even the most recent 2016.02
mod6: im starting to think that our SHA512 sum of this artifact is better than whatever they've got.
ben_vulpes imagines stan's face shooped onto the manul
mod6: asciilifeform:this is the one that we're pulling
mod6: we expect this sha512:
mod6: c42fdd39cb2bc46804a86a7d7b2605bd3cd9ddcb365c4e5a1fb147eb02b234fc31a70c8140be2f4d27cd371c84e0c6701f8cb47697dd1c18dd0e0cce784aa07a
mod6: the md5 & sha1 match the sign file
ben_vulpes: c42fdd39cb2bc46804a86a7d7b2605bd3cd9ddcb365c4e5a1fb147eb02b234fc31a70c8140be2f4d27cd371c84e0c6701f8cb47697dd1c18dd0e0cce784aa07a
mod6: what we really aught to do is write to that guy, get him to join the wot with a 4096 bit RSA key, and have him resign all of the bundles.
mod6: or at least, just the one we're using.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41550 @ 0.00056304 = 23.3943 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: "Peter Korsgaard <jacmet@uclibc.org>"
ben_vulpes: it's just another thing in the way of wrapping this up, mod6 .
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform produced legacy hashes, they match the ones i have on disk and the ones you have right?
mod6: just thinking that hey, cant hurt anything to enlighten the guy that these hashes that he's signing, even up to this current month are obsolete.
mod6: SHA1 & MD5 are broken are they not?
mod6: anyway, an open line of comms to these folks could help us -- especially going forward as we basically might need to "roll our own" so that it doesn't pull the deps via rsync.
mod6: asciilifeform: not as far as i've seen.
ben_vulpes: my sha1 and md5 match those in k's .sign
mod6: so as far as the build-bitcoind-V99995.sh is concerned. let's just check that hash and call it a day then.
mod6: take a look, i've removed 3 lines: 1. in the comment section where it lists PK's key fingerprint at the top 2. the curl that pulls the sign file for buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign 3. the gpg command that verifies buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign
jurov: why do i keep getting such obscure stuff...
mod6: c2ed1ccbb6769ada764b6d31e7a06873860c422109c4f8506cbda04402243c0534c9555f44f4c47071ebc3d6e3ece720b84de2940a2639381ef77652b34c3030
mod6: sha512 for build-bitcoind-V99995.sh is now ^^
mod6: jurov: do you mean `pwd' ?
jurov: basically, perl's fork() stopped working
mod6: what version of *nix & what version of perl
jurov: gentoo, perl 5.20.2
jurov: i updated glibc with the patch
mod6: pwd is used iirc in v.pl, but only in the contex of it being a shell out - your environment should execute this and return the result to a scalar.
mod6: fork() shoudn't even be a consideration here... im confused.
phf: yeesh, when shiva fails to read init.scm it kills the whole bitcoind there and then
jurov: mod6 `pwd` call subprocess
phf: Shiva: new session, connected from 127.0.0.1:49563
phf: libc++abi.dylib: terminating with uncaught exception of type std::runtime_error: Shiva: failed to read init file!
phf: run: line 4: 67621 Abort trap: 6
mod6: perl doesn't care about what subprocesses a unix command may or may not use tho.
jurov: asciilifeform: how do i list patches that went into glibc-2.22-r2 ?
mod6: it'd be like doing the same thing in a bash script: PWD=`pwd`; echo $PWD;
phf: oh i agree, it should kill, just not without prejudice
phf: (i.e. no reason to corrupt db in the process)
mod6: jurov: fwiw, i do a huge % of testing on a gentoo env with perl 5.20...
mod6: v5.20.2 for x86_64-linux
phf: well, init.scm is read on each connection, since there's no persistence
jurov: mod6 well, on another box i updates glibc to same version and perl works fine
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.0005655 = 22.2242 BTC [+]
mod6: so again, this is because somehow V thinks that your pwd is in / ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41214 @ 0.00056467 = 23.2723 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: are you in / when executing V, by doing something like `/path/to/where/V/is/actually/located/v.pl`
mod6: because then your pwd would be /
mod6: and it'll look for .wot in /
jurov: mod6 noooo, pwd is external program. it failed to run it and returned nothing
jurov: and nothing + '/.wot' is...
mod6: ok, so pwd just fails as is.
mod6: what does `which pwd` tell you?
jurov: but don't mind, this is my private mess
jurov: even system('ls') fails
mod6: im simply curious here, never seen a pwd fail before.
mod6: yeah, probably need to re-chroot or whatever it is with gentoo
mod6: asciilifeform or trinque have any thoughts for the man?
mod6: in other news jurov, im about to re-send the emails from yesterday
jurov: yay just recompiled perl without thread support, that did the trick
mod6: wait, now it works?!?!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44345 @ 0.00057003 = 25.278 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: yes, both my perl and turdatron
mod6: lemme see if i get this. perl with thread support broke your entire gentoo?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12655 @ 0.0005712 = 7.2285 BTC [+]
jurov: not entire. just occassional problems with perl scripts like v.pl and autotools
mod6: but i thought you said that `ls` and `pwd` didn't work, like in your shell. that shouldn't have anything to do with perl.
mod6: my mind is blown. these are C binaries.
jurov: but perl failed to execue them!
jurov: most perl scripts meddle with $SIG so they worked fine
mod6: but, say, normal use; you log in, you get a shell, you type `ls` and that would just work as expected right?
jurov: yes, everything worked. except perl -e "print system('ls') or die $!" returned just -1
mod6: then that makes a bit more sense.
mod6: maybe i should rewrite V in C
jurov: as i said, don't mind. it's my problem, i should not avoid dubious USE flags
mod6: well, someday maybe. still a dog with fleas.
shinohai: btw mod6 I have reproduced it again just fine this morning Deb 8 and Ubuntu 14.04
mod6: ah, ok good deal shinohai. I updated the script so that it doens't even pull that .sign file. we'll just rely on the sha512 that I hvae, alf has, and ben has.
mod6: the link is above if anyone wants to give it a try.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 20:08:29; phf: well, init.scm is read on each connection, since there's no persistence
mod6: shinohai: ok cool! im running mine right now
mod6: im making a `typescript' of the output as well. will post later when its complete.
shinohai: Me too did u get my pm with the address to node stats?
mod6: ah, ya, haven't looked yet tho.
mod6: 9 connections, there soemthing i don't see everyday.
mod6: thanks for your help all. much appreciated.
mod6: so once we're happy with this build-script, etc. we cna update that wiki, then we're back in sync. then I can take some time to get the makefiles stuff all organized.
mod6: no super rush there.
mod6: just only was in a hurry to get back into sync.
mod6: jurov: glad you got it resolved tho. let us know how it goes for you.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 144950 @ 0.00057256 = 82.9926 BTC [+] {4}
jurov: it did compile the bitcoind, the problem was intermittent
mod6: ok now to resend those emails...
ben_vulpes: > 9 connections << coracle currently serving 13 strangers
ben_vulpes: and in other nyooz of the weird and strange saga of ben_vulpes endeavoring to set up a reference implementation on his heathen macintosh, buildroot fails to compile in linux virtual machines of all sorts of flavors
phf: i have it running in a frowned upon state. cmake, llvm, clang
mod6: huh, yeah wouldn't have expected that
ben_vulpes: here's the last line, asciilifeform: x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault (program cc1)
mod6: and this is a gentoo VM? or ubuntu?
ben_vulpes: mod6: under gentoo the vm simply gives up on life
ben_vulpes: mod6: under ubuntu 14.04 running make in buildroot exits as above
mod6: yeah, maybe alf has it
ben_vulpes: gcc (Gentoo 4.6.3 p1.13, pie-0.5.2) 4.6.3
phf: ben_vulpes: i'm building it from inside Clion, so i'm not sure how easy it is to do cmake otherwise, i can share the diff though
mod6: jurov: lol, those emails envetually went through!!!?!
ben_vulpes: is this perversion even worth running down?
mod6: glad i checked or they would have been in there 2x.
ben_vulpes: i figured this for more of a "half bottle of wine in a girl's butt" report. entertainment, not science.
mod6: yaaa, i recall this
jurov: mod6: what mail provides do you use? trying to resend email for 3 days is standard
ben_vulpes: to be frank, i have no idea how this gentoo image was even built in the first place.
ben_vulpes: no, 'twas some abortion pulled in via 'atlas', 'hashicorp'
phf: ben_vulpes: you brought this upon yourself :D
ben_vulpes: 'easy development environments for derpvelopers on macintosh!'
mod6: haha. also gives you the shits.
mod6: ugh. man. computers right?
jurov: butbutbut riced dumpsters!
phf: man, writing scheme is like trying to build an eiffel tower out of toothpicks
phf: once i bootstrap entire cl you mean? (define-macro (destructuring-bind ...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47900 @ 0.00056373 = 27.0027 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: god help the man that takes a nap during republican times.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:27:59; asciilifeform: it is an example of everything i stand against.
mircea_popescu: so the guy is more familiar with cpp, naturally wants to isolate the weird he's taking in and take it in at controlled rate.
mircea_popescu: won't be accepted in trb by any means, but i dun see anything wrong wiht the process.
mircea_popescu: eh it doesn't pull anything. think about it : it is a modest, quiet hope, specifically that shiva/b-a/trb is actually heavy enough that it may pull him.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with treating your baby as a chunk of bedrock, you know.
ben_vulpes: what even was the point of the schemehooks?
mircea_popescu: tied some ropes to it and pulling on them, technically yes "this pulls the earth the wrong way". practically, tis alpinism.
ben_vulpes: these are the original hooks? i misread
phf: asciilifeform: he's asking about SchemeHook from polarbeard's patch
jurov: at least he has he stethoscope on
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:49:27; asciilifeform: hence turingcompletevtron.
mircea_popescu: what [i believe] you have in mind when ytou say "tc" in thsi context is pointedly not what most anyone reading it would expect it to mean.
mircea_popescu: in that it's "turing complete in a purely theoretical sense and with none of the practical overhead a practical implementation would imply except in those cases where it is clearly and truly needed".
jurov: ^yes i was hinting at this too
mircea_popescu: in this sense cunt is turing complete, it can express all proteins.
phf: i think the idea is to have a slightly more constrained awk. patchmachine takes string, manipulates it, returns new string
mircea_popescu: phf my mental model is essentially "awk without regexp"
jurov: no the ide was patchmachine takes *filesystem* and ditto
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what other than regexp do you hate in awk ? and being gnucpp, of course.\
jurov: lol first me tormenting alf with ed, now they awk
mircea_popescu: ok, you know, say that! "i want a homoiconic thing with lambda", rather than "tc"
mircea_popescu: which is what the first pass of this convo actually exactly was, iirc.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 15:48:49; mircea_popescu: listen, if you say "diff should parse scheme" instead of "diff should be turing complete" people'd follow a lot easier.
mircea_popescu: which is why one'd expect a lot more alma matering of stuff like polarbeard's.
mircea_popescu: he's bound to run into a shitton of resistance of the medium in short order with that thing.
jurov: maybe we'll end up with vtron that actually allow to implement source code parser inside vpatches so that it computes checksums for every function
jurov: and the graph will be made from these checksums
jurov: so that descendants will list code snippets the actually depend on
jurov: instead of whole files
jurov: someone inewitably will try it anyway. and i wish to see your face upon seeing vpatch with embedded cpptron
phf: vpatch generating mandelbrots
mircea_popescu: jurov> someone inewitably will try it anyway. and i wish to see your face upon seeing vpatch with embedded cpptron <<< abhahaha win
jurov: actually, that's logical conclusion of what you want. instead of "teh stupid +++ --- stuff" make c++ parser, apply a transform and generate code
jurov: arbitrary text transformations like you dream of do not fit in head
jurov: then it couild also parse c++
jurov: it's arbitrary text transformation, too
mircea_popescu: "arbitrary text transformations" but only between these two sets we carefully curated.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform now stop calling it "tc" and confusing people. concept needs a new name.
mircea_popescu: this is like saying "i want a whaleoctopusdeerkitten" because you dunno how to say girlfriend
ben_vulpes: i read 'tc' in the sense of 'can express arbitrary actions', in the vein of the old joke about programming in $shitlang: "hey, it's turing complete, we can make it do whatever we need"
mircea_popescu: is it supposed to say "stolen plutonium dick" ? possibly only better thing.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:54:08; asciilifeform: we have finessed the halting problem !1111
mircea_popescu: i mean to convey my surprise and giddy excitement as to how it's not wrong.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: got a mail that you guys were doing something with Buildroot and if I could join?
mircea_popescu: we are : it's become the replacement harness for bitcoin.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43850 @ 0.00057355 = 25.1502 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: and buildroot with musl prevented us from bathing in the same humiliation EVERYONE else ended up in with the recent gethostbyaddr thing
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: ahh, interesting
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: and buildroot is working out of you or do you have some kind of problems?
ben_vulpes: Jacmet: buildroot is working rather niftily.
Jacmet: and yes, the current gpg key used for buildroot signing is getting quite old
mircea_popescu: that would be the one problem - the thing is a very valuable security asset, should be better protected.
mircea_popescu: make a 4kb key and use it rather than the strange md5 lists or what's that.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: true. I'll get the new key cross signed by the other devs at our next dev days and start using it
Jacmet: asciilifeform: really? We never had reports on the ml or on irc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where was the line/dpaste ? dja recall ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5413 @ 0.00057355 = 3.1046 BTC [+]
Jacmet: asciilifeform: what was the difference between the bad/good tarball? Real rogue code or just interrupted download?
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 18:56:36; kakobrekla: logs tell me no one missed me, great :)
Jacmet: asciilifeform: ok, I would be *VERY* interested in comparing them
mircea_popescu: and in unrelated news, do you take bitcoin donations Jacmet ?
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: I guess we could, but it has never come up so far
mircea_popescu: so get that sane key made, reg it and sign an address, i'll send you a coin.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: we're currently setting up a non profit organization around buildroot
mircea_popescu: that's a horrible idea if the wya such things work out in practice is any guide.
mircea_popescu: pick a strong leader in the form of a person, build your thing atop pgp sigs and forget the nonsense fiat.
Jacmet: mircea_popescu: we already have that (me ;)
mircea_popescu: x.org just recently lost their only asset because of inept "non profit" shenanigans.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23928 @ 0.00056222 = 13.4528 BTC [-]
mod6: Jacmet: thanks for stopping in.
ben_vulpes: Jacmet: another thing worth pointing out are that sha1 and md5 are obsolete
Jacmet: ben_vulpes: yes, the key is from 2009 or so, where those were the defaults
ben_vulpes: whats the connection between key and file hash algos?
assbot: Logged on 16-02-2016 16:36:23; asciilifeform: now the other thing about openbsd is the incident with theo and that microshit flunkie
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> make a 4kb key and use it rather than the strange md5 lists or what's that. << RSA too.
assbot: Logged on 02-12-2015 04:13:47; BingoBoingo: "On a personal "hate ramen noodles and tuna" level, I agree. But my good-for-project-good-for-the-world side says the OpenBSD Foundation is more effective at growing the contribution pie and in particular funding the hackathons where great work happens." - Theo De Raadt
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37241 @ 0.00056222 = 20.9376 BTC [-]
phf: asciilifeform: ah, sorry i did a rename
phf: while early in the game, stable, experimental, uploads and deprecated
phf: actually i don't know how to call them..
mircea_popescu: Jacmet give a looksee at how buildroot is currently used
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00056651 = 13.143 BTC [+]
Jacmet: mod6: thanks. Any specific reason you guys are still on 2015.05?
Jacmet: mod6: and why the manual download of openssl/db/boost instead of just letting Buildroot do it?
mod6: np. well, we've been working for quite a while now to get all of this tooling setup the way we need it. we haven't had a reason to move forward with the version.
Jacmet: asciilifeform: newer and shinier ;)
mircea_popescu: Jacmet tmsr doth not believe in upgrades. on the contrary, the versions here count towards 0.
Jacmet: asciilifeform: E.G. updated openssl, there's been some security fixes since 1.0.1g
mod6: <+Jacmet> mod6: and why the manual download of openssl/db/boost instead of just letting Buildroot do it? << actually, one thing I think we're considering is doing a modification to buildroot so that we don't pull its deps over the wan via rsync. is there a way, currently, to just place all of its deps somewhere so it won't rsync?
Jacmet: mod6: yes, the download infrastructure in buildroot will only download if the tarball isn't already available in the dl dir, or you can point it to a local mirror
phf: Jacmet: bitcoind uses openssl for low level crypto operations, not actual client facing stuff
mod6: Jacmet: oh fantastic, glad i asked.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42350 @ 0.0005679 = 24.0506 BTC [+] {3}
mod6: i was sweating that we were going to have to 'roll our own'.
mircea_popescu: moreover, it's marked for replacement. just, iffy thing to replace, the crypto lib.
mod6: Ok Gentlemen, I've gotta run for a few here. Jacmet: Thanks again for stopping in. When you're ready with your new key, stop on back and we'll help you get setup in the WoT. Cheers!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28528 @ 0.00056222 = 16.039 BTC [-]
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: so no love for da hooks? :) actually I'm not confortable at all using cpp...
polarbeard: my daily work involves the rightfully hated javascript
polarbeard: but I usually prefer expressive non-bullshit languages
mircea_popescu: i would suspect as far as alf is concerned, javascript is cpp.
phf: oh, is that some other bathhouse in nyc?
phf: aah, i'll ask him when he's around, but that's west coast. they have great saunas there
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 152914 @ 0.00057355 = 87.7038 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15386 @ 0.00057356 = 8.8248 BTC [+]
phf: fwiw cascade range has a bunch of fantastic hot spring places. there's one next to Seattle, one next to portland, i mean of the the ones i've been too. but there's also numerous holes of course
phf: in fact i'm going to breitenbush two weeks from now, in the ben_vulpes area
mircea_popescu is not terribly fond of hot springs, for some reason they attract old folks.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 20:02:18; jurov: why do i keep getting such obscure stuff...
phf: i used to do the whole 30 minute run through winter forest for a cold plunge in прорубь thing growing up, so i like hotsprings in winter. you get a pretty reasonable crowd around this time too, no idea how it is in summer
mircea_popescu: sounds like perhaps an actual buffer hole or something.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22114 @ 0.00057356 = 12.6837 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 20:19:18; jurov: even system('ls') fails
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 20:52:04; phf: man, writing scheme is like trying to build an eiffel tower out of toothpicks
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 437.7, vol: 11075.47017945 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 434.15, vol: 9701.36175 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 440.53, vol: 43990.17093531 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 440.0, vol: 0.60533968 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 448.2492, vol: 65369.96210000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 432.3158, vol: 870.71229551 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 436.63648, vol: 71.6372979 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
ben_vulpes: phf: popular place with the ru folk in the area
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7900 @ 0.00057396 = 4.5343 BTC [+]
gernika: phf: Had a terrible vegetarian thanksgiving dinner at Breitenbush. I did see a naked woman there though, as a teenager.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.00057396 = 22.5566 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95836 @ 0.00057389 = 54.9993 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for the record this " the reason that source access is needed is the same as the cause of the problem: the inability to modify system behavior non-intrusively. if one could modify OPEN on any given system to acquire new behavior _without_ compiling a new OPEN or, even if you did, without re-linking the entire system (thus the need for dynamic linking and similar solutions, too), source code access would
mircea_popescu: he is correct in that foss is mostly a problem unto itself, making the previous situation worse rather than better.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the "solution" he contemplates is of the level of "because inept us-style corporatism displays all the sechelae you'd expect if you got a bunch of farmers to say how cars should look, let's everyone run in traffic!"
mircea_popescu: i do not WISH to run an "open" which may acquire unspecified powers in the future if the caller rubs its belly just right.
mircea_popescu: the principal specification of any machine, not JUST computers, not just software stacks, not just lines of code, is to specify what it can never do.
mircea_popescu: what he's talking about it is fractal they shall be delivered thing
mircea_popescu: how so. how the fuck are you EVER going to sign off on any code when it is not possible to say what function call will never do ?
mircea_popescu: currently our substance is drawn specifically from the fact that for the past 2-3 decades, these twerps approached the problem of functionality ("the software doesn't do enough") with nary a clue about the problem of feedback ("the software does too much")
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the sufficient and necessary concrete is readily available and of an abstract kind. i needn't any actual calcium carbonate to say various things about various bits of code.
mircea_popescu: that the concept is poorly implemented is a separable and in fact separate problem from that the concept is broken
mircea_popescu: we had a few threads about this. i suppose it's still an open q.
mircea_popescu: that may well be so. "with dirty hands no clean pages will be written".
gernika: mircea_popescu: I don't recall saying anything. Probably because I was pretending: "no big deal." or something.
assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 22:20:40; mircea_popescu: moe finds bitcoin in 2056, long after the republic prevailed, through his gf at the time. he steals her script, copies her .wot directory and now has a node!
mircea_popescu: i kinda wonder if naggum had lived to see b-a, whethger it'd have been passionate love or some sort of weird hate thing.
mircea_popescu: he doesn't believe, eg, math, is "something created at mit"
mircea_popescu: even if he may or may not believe any particular building is the result of some people who did some calculations in private for money.
mircea_popescu: except if everyone had plutonium induced braindamage from the fashion of eating plutonium pills
mircea_popescu: and lest you think such a thing is "impossible" : ustards ate off lead plates for many years, and even blamed tomatoes for hallucinated poisonousness.
mircea_popescu: all this because they really wanted to be as cool as the euros and didn't comprehend that faking it till you make it just gives you saturnism
mircea_popescu: and wrote down that you're not supposed to flint, michigan.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13562 @ 0.00056708 = 7.6907 BTC [-]
phf: right now it's a bit jury rigged though. most intrusive is the addition of "keywords" to scheme.c, i.e. :foo evaluates to :foo
phf: they have some package hack foo::bar (and not foo:bar), which mostly just breaks things
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37563 @ 0.00057387 = 21.5563 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 30.73 B (53%) on Yes, 27.63 B (47%) on No | closing in 2 weeks 1 day| weight: 61`697 (100`000 to 1) ... (
http://bit.ly/1QsN9gt )
mircea_popescu: amusingly bitbet is the largest pool on that topic on the whole internets, nobody seems to be aware of the situation.
mircea_popescu: even ended up in some slashdotty-like thing w/e it was
mircea_popescu: hey, history is written by a dude Ira and his studious.
phf: tinyscheme can't read strings longer then #define STRBUFFSIZE 256, hmm
trinque: <ben_vulpes> yo hey yo hey << looks like my bouncer took a crap while I was out for the weekend. sup!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82470 @ 0.00057402 = 47.3394 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 02:30:15; assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 20:41:35; ben_vulpes: mod6: i am *still* getting this with build-bitcoin-v99995.sh: gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file 'buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!
mod6: yah. i realized that lastnight. i think it also has to do with that i was using a derp version of gnupg too
trinque: mod6: good evening, and cool
mod6: anyway, not sure how i ever mixed that up.
mod6: anyway, i the latest, we just pulled that out for the time being.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 22:49:39; phf: aah, i'll ask him when he's around, but that's west coast. they have great saunas there
mircea_popescu: hey, were you running a russian bath thing or am i completely delusional ?
mircea_popescu: so... how about you pay the fine establishment a visit phf ?
JuliaTourianski_: my mother got a call the other day with some guy asking her if we have glory holes. she had no idea what he meant.
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 19:08:14; phf: as soon as i can move again, i'm going to make it to russian&turkish baths in nyc. they don't really do saunas on the east coast, but that baths place is awesome
mircea_popescu: eh girls get discounts everywhere nudity's even vaguely involved.
phf: of course, i'm always interested in new sauna places
phf: i prefer contrast baths, hot bath, cold plunge, but yeah i've been to all kinds
JuliaTourianski_: in turkey, we were walking round hoping to go to a hamam the next day..when we saw steam rising from one of the buildings...we inquired to find the oldest haman of turkey! it was amazing. they scrubbed me down so hard. and they giggled at my shyness.
phf: is that the one that's few blocks away from hagia sophia?
JuliaTourianski_: the general rule is...the more expensive a bathhouse is, the less authentic cuz only white tourists would pay that much to bathe...
mircea_popescu: JuliaTourianski_ did you get that gaming system made ?
mircea_popescu: the girl/boy ratio in eulora is starting to skew the wrong way!
phf: i've noticed that, there's a place right between the sophia and blue mosque, that's all turist.
JuliaTourianski_: am i masculine cuz i was addicted to minecraft or feminine because i built a kitchen
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron i never played it, but is it inflationary ?
mircea_popescu: JuliaTourianski_ nah atm noobs are making a pretty penny mining.
danielpbarron: i used to play on a hardcore pvp server that had a decent economy (for minecraft) and they would have to periodically reset the whole world
mircea_popescu: weren't ppls bitching that purse.io went scam or was that a different thing
phf: danielpbarron: wait, fullton street in nyc?
phf: interesting, i've not been to that one
danielpbarron: i pulled off some pretty cool raids on that minecraft server; the guy who made it coded this thing you could build out of expensive parts that would like you track down where people were if they stood in one place too long (usually building their big stupid elaborate base)
danielpbarron: got to the point i built a tracker so big i could scan the whole map using binary substitution, and just collected and sold coordinates to other people
phf: the one on second ave has pretty good food, but it's really just one guy cooking it. this wallstreetspa place seems like they might have a cook
mircea_popescu: i never cared, myself. nubbins` is the resident expert really.
assbot: You rated user JuliaTourianski_ on 22-Sep-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Manages the beer for a family owned Russian bathouse with handmage sausages in Mississauga..
danielpbarron: the thing with "load your own key" physicals is it defeats at least some of the purpose
danielpbarron: although i'm with nubbins` on the whole gpg chain of ownership method
danielpbarron: bitcoin can never exist strictly as a physical token; there needs to be some sort of bank-like entity to put a name on it
mircea_popescu: seems to me rather obvious these are intended as decorative accessories.
phf: seems like it would appeal to the same "commemorative" crowd as in fiat
mircea_popescu: phf no, it's the porsche for a new generation. tho i'm unsure whether anyone here understands or cares to think about what those things ~are~.
mircea_popescu: let's go at it this way : ever seen how much bums value cell phones ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30750 @ 0.00057405 = 17.652 BTC [+]
punkman: danielpbarron: bitcoin can never exist strictly as a physical token; there needs to be some sort of bank-like entity to put a name on it << the keys are always stored on physical tokens. unless you have a brainwallet (and the mind-reading machine has not been invented yet).
ben_vulpes: this is an implementation detail, punkman
danielpbarron: yeah but you don't usually pass around private keys like bank notes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but the value of the phone for the bum is unrelated to its utility.
mircea_popescu: for one thing - who the fuck is he going to call ? for the other - how is he going to even get it to work ? for yet another, it matters not so much if the thing even works in the first place.
danielpbarron: it sorta works with cacasius coins -- the ones that ~he~ loaded. But if each identical looking token is supposed to be loaded by a different entity, there can be no illusion of fungibility between them
mircea_popescu: note that i picked the bum specifically. for derps in "secure neighbourhoods", showing off to the neighbour is arguably a +ev move. who knows, maybe neighbour's daughter comes to do your house work in the nude or something. as faint as it may be - you're not going to get in fucking trouble for being an asshole. not so for bum. for bum, veblen goods are suicide goods.
mircea_popescu: look at "european cars", they've been selling the same damned thing for 30 years now. you ever watch one of their ads ?
mircea_popescu: there's a naked woman in a fur and a shot of some shiny cogs working together.
mircea_popescu: and they're not pitching to people who could buy the damned cars, but to twentysomething derps in college.
mircea_popescu: fact of the matter is, when it comes to technology we're all bums. nobody can make a fucking car he'd want to drive.
mircea_popescu: and this is EXACTLY what elegance is. no fucking farmer in the midwest, building an empire and about to kick the fuherer's teeth in can POSSIBLY be elegant.
mircea_popescu: elegance is specifically the scent of early putrefaction.
mircea_popescu: hence new york was elegant in 1920, by the time it was just starting to no longer matter,
mircea_popescu: not in 1820 when it was kicking pensylvania's teeth in.
mircea_popescu: look at the item in question, it's faintly cog-like, and mysteriously made of parts bla bla. same exact play, for same exact reason.
mircea_popescu: all they need is some sluts in furs smoking out of hookas or some shit.
mircea_popescu: what's that, women that never queef and dudes that don't go bald ?
phf: andy warhol's gay entourage
JuliaTourianski_: regarding the kialaras... they're pretty pieces of art (which by wilde's definition is valuable in it of itself) plus they have the btc behind them, so they're an investment.
mircea_popescu: they're valuable in themselves plus they make a good investment. furs ftw.
mircea_popescu: splendid bit in there, right in the final sketch, de funes is this breton dude. "ils m'ont liquide!"
JuliaTourianski_: im writing a post called "It's not that there's no jobs, it's that your standards are too high. "
punkman: I like the Kialara coins, certainly different than all the other crap coins. but why would I buy one signed by Ricky Allman or JuliaTourianski? did you do the art on the back side?