Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2016-03-01 | 2016-03-03 →
assbot: A Miner Problem | Qntra ... ( )
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: starfish? rbf?
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Donald Trump gets Republican Nomination -
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Yes
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: what does all of this mean
ben_vulpes: ah replace by fee
ben_vulpes: and starfish means?
BingoBoingo: asshole
BingoBoingo: pooper
ben_vulpes gives up, falls over, dies, rots, blows away
BingoBoingo: Every derpism like RBF is a new starfish blighting heretic client forks
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 3.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Donald Trump will win the 2016 United States Presidential Election -
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> BingoBoingo: what does all of this mean << replace byt fee, sorta a poor man's version of your original "run a pool!"
mircea_popescu: somehow this "majority miner changes everything" thing is very hard to see.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11800 @ 0.00056821 = 6.7049 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: More from MP's favorite stalker
assbot: sciencehatesyou comments on Potential Evidence of Miner Collusion Or An Active 51+ Percent Cartel ... ( )
BingoBoingo: That's what, cockpuppet 691 or 692 she called out. Someone needs some Thorazine
mircea_popescu: and the most ... snore, i suppose, aspect of this is that other than the few dedicated philiphinos caught without talking points, the general redditard population is amply incapable of even understanding what was said. at all.
mircea_popescu: "the network will be safe because the miners won't shit in the soup because they'll be too afraid of the public reaction"
mircea_popescu: "yeah, except they'll try it a little sooner or later, and then a little more. and the public is mostly made up of the same public that thought Britney Spears is a singer."
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market --all
gribble: Error: This is not one of the supported markets. Please choose one of ['bcent', 'okc', 'btcn', 'coinbase', 'cbx', 'btce', 'bfx', 'btcavg', 'btcde', 'krk', 'bitmynt', 'btsp'] or 'all'
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --merkel angela
gribble: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitfinex. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 433.0, vol: 6784.34911547 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 433.88, vol: 17762.93680826 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 444.99, vol: 1.91867027 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 441.744954, vol: 78079.43140000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 429.3, vol: 1789.99641091 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 430.865683, vol: 50.712731 | Volume-weighted last average: 439.621312697
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69682 @ 0.0005664 = 39.4679 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122800 @ 0.00056531 = 69.4201 BTC [-] {3}
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 3.63428528 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump will win the 2016 United States Presidential Election -
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24150 @ 0.00056468 = 13.637 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28721 @ 0.00056439 = 16.2098 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47036 @ 0.00056431 = 26.5429 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: huh wtf happened to lxr
jurov: debugging left on? ofc
jurov: ;;later tell ben_vulpes till the cache hasn't cleared, use instead
assbot: Satoshi ... ( )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
jurov: fghj: mod6: also, do you have any hints as what leaves to press and add into lxr?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14350 @ 0.00056409 = 8.0947 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00056392 = 9.8686 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1800 @ 0.00056392 = 1.0151 BTC [-]
assbot: Kanye West caught using Pirate Bay to download music software | Ars Technica UK ... ( )
mircea_popescu: lol go kanye, stickin' it to da man.
mircea_popescu: o... wait...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20800 @ 0.00056392 = 11.7295 BTC [-]
PeterL: mircea_popescu: so the Jeb Bush bet winners were sent their winnings twice? Does that 16 btc go as a loss on the bitbet books?
mircea_popescu: PeterL yeap.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46600 @ 0.0005635 = 26.2591 BTC [-] {2}
PeterL: Or are you expecting everybody to nicely send back the mistaken funds?
mircea_popescu: haha. what is this, fiat ?
mircea_popescu: no, i don't expect such nonsense.
PeterL: maybe if you ask really nicely?
mircea_popescu: but what sense does it make ?
PeterL: none, none of it makes sense
mircea_popescu: and it's actually 17.95 or so
assbot: A Miner Problem | Qntra ... ( )
PeterL: to me, it seems like it was just a miner holding onto a zero fee txn, and it happened to move to the top of the 0 fee txn pile right after you resent the txn
mircea_popescu: you're a college man, right ? tokenize the events, assets probabilities per token, calculate the overal chance of this happening.
mircea_popescu: that's how the pros do it, at any rate.
PeterL: have you timed how long it normally takes a 0 fee txn of that size to get into a block?
mircea_popescu: yes we have! it takes it over a week to NOT get into a block :)
mircea_popescu: and it's very scientific : same exact tx!
PeterL: okay, so getting into a block right after your other txn is a bit of a coincidence, but not inconceivable
mircea_popescu: what is this!
PeterL: I think you are just being paranoid
mircea_popescu: this is fine, but also rather irrelevant. migth as well tell darwin he's just being anticlerical.
mircea_popescu: there's actual science work to be done, for they able and willing.
thestringpuller: the node cabal forked from the mining cabal?
thestringpuller: or just the mining cabal silently forked the network...
mircea_popescu: it's one of those "you think you're buying a fine piece of american engineering, but otherwise it's made in china" things.
mircea_popescu: you think you're using the bitcoin network, but in fact you're using the chicoin network.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: chinese cockroach demolition derby when ?
asciilifeform: can haz front row seat ?
mircea_popescu: well for starters, deleting this "must hardfork to prove we can do it" nonsense and replace it with the much more sensible "must brick miners to prove we can do it", at the very least.
PeterL: I guess I can't complain too much about this bitbet blunder, the "extra winnings" I got from the bet was higher than my proportion of the loss as a bitbet shareholder (unless this tanks the share price too)
PeterL: I mean, uh, hypothetically, if I was one of the bettors ... uh.. nevermind
mircea_popescu: lol what a narrow outlook!
PeterL: unless this exposes some flaw in the bitcoin system, and the btc price crashes, and then we are all fucked
mircea_popescu: but it already did expose such a flaw.
PeterL: I am not thoroughly convinced
mircea_popescu: miners can attack any user, with an unsolvable "either doublepay or never pay" dilemma.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lemme guess, you have the thermonuke ready and loaded ?
PeterL: you just need your own miner to doublespend the inputs to cancel the first txn
kakobrekla: or move the inputs of the first tx beforehand and invalidate the doublespend possibility
PeterL: weren't you already talking about setting up your own pool?
kakobrekla: or should i say rather 'doublepay'
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.05510566 BTC on 'No' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match -
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not believe in singlehandedness.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you can not move inputs BY YOURSELF
mircea_popescu: why's this so hard to grok, somehow ?
mircea_popescu: what do you do, make ANOTHER tx to go in the An delayed-forever pile ?
mircea_popescu: and to fix this then your advice is to what, make An+1 ? because then surely ? for how long ?
PeterL: or run your own miner
kakobrekla: so you are saying you are unable to make any further txes on bitcoin network at all?
mircea_popescu: i am saying that i spent OVER A WEEK making transactions from those inputs.
kakobrekla: and for the next tx will it again take a week and not be done again ?
mircea_popescu: and, ironically, the substantial proof that there was nothing wrong with any of them PER SE, was that a tx that, as per the protocol, should not even have been relayable made it into a fucking block
mircea_popescu: within "minutes", where "minutes" just neatly fits in the cartel head-of-best-chain report delay.
kakobrekla: 0 fee txes are quite relayable, tried not a week ago.
PeterL: how do you know they are delaying?
asciilifeform: did i mention that ~same thing happened to my humble 5btc ?
asciilifeform: i think i did.
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 23:32:18; mircea_popescu: i personally think the only reason it's not mined yet is that there hasn't been a block.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform was it sourced from bitbet payouts ? i recall pete_dushenski saying the same happened to him, originally blamed it on multibit.
asciilifeform: quite possibly it was. or at least in part.
asciilifeform: and the remainder was sourced, i think, from something mircea_popescutronic, as almost all of my coin in fact is.
asciilifeform: << maybe describe then, what you'll need. (here, or in pgpgram..)
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 15:54:27; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not believe in singlehandedness.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20100 @ 0.00056345 = 11.3253 BTC [-]
PeterL: I still dun see why you jump to the conclusion of miner holding blocks, maybe they rebroadcast the transaction as they moved it from "0fee waiting line" to "now including these txen" when they had held it long enough for the wait time to increase its priority?
PeterL: if it had been two days instead of two hours after the other transaction, would you still have concluded miner collusion?
PeterL: mircea_popescu ^
mircea_popescu: PeterL the operative part there is, txn was "broadcast" and then "included in a block" within 20-odd minutes.
PeterL: maybe it was the miner who had been holding it who broadcast it?
mircea_popescu: that happens to be, involuntarily i guess, and impredictably for the attackingside, i guess, a passive timing of their capabilities.
mircea_popescu: PeterL that's the idea.
PeterL: which is why none of the other txn that followed it were included, they were invalidated by the first txn which was in the miners' mempool
mircea_popescu: except they didn't report it ?
PeterL: who didn't report it?
mircea_popescu: well, ~nobody.
PeterL: you asked the miners specifically?
mircea_popescu: i didn'taskl anything of anyone. i listen to a large cross-section of the bitcoin relay network.
mircea_popescu: nodes advertise the txn they know about.
PeterL: maybe a mine who likes to listen instead of talk held onto the first transaction?
mircea_popescu: for a week or so, in preference of higher fee replacements ? sure. why ?
mircea_popescu: it is breaking the protocol inasmuch as a protocol exists.
mircea_popescu: it's certainly not a behaviour supported or even possible by any codebase so far published, if you think code=protocol instead.
PeterL: why not hold onto a 0fee txn until later?
mircea_popescu: because it's part of a set of mutually incompatible txn, and some of the others have better fees, for instance. if you're am iner, you want the higher fee.
PeterL: but is the protocol to keep older txn or newer, does fee size matter?
mircea_popescu: the protocol is that 0 fee txn can't even be relayed.
PeterL: what if it is just somebody trying to scam by getting a party to accept a 0conf txn, and then double spending it?
kakobrekla: 0 fee txn can't even be relayed. < this is not true
mircea_popescu: write down what a party would need in order to do this.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla hey, "spam protection", i didn't write it.
kakobrekla: they relay but not as well.
mircea_popescu: but yes, because "the protocol" is not even written down, endless arguments of this nature can be had. by and large...
PeterL: ok, I buy some egold from bob, send him 1 btc. He sees the 0conf txn, transferes the egold to me, then I doublespend the inputs with a higher fee, sucks to be him
kakobrekla: there are many different version of nodes and implementations abiding by different rules on bitcoin network.
mircea_popescu: PeterL this is miserable "writing down". what are you, a consumer ? HOW do you doublespend.
kakobrekla: and this makes it, to an extent, unpredictable.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla or so we thought. but it turns out that no, there's exactly one, covered in a cloud of buzzing shit.
PeterL: and the miners in your scheme see the higher fee and put the second txn in a block
kakobrekla: there isnt one. trb behaves differently than prb if nothing else.
mircea_popescu: PeterL how is this related to what happened ?
kakobrekla: even different trb build do different stuff.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla and guess what - trb gets blackholed now and again. prb never mattered.
kakobrekla: same goes for prb.
PeterL: you seem to think you can just send a new txn with a higher fee and expect it to get processed faster
mircea_popescu: the miners are running their own shit, and it's centralized.
mircea_popescu: PeterL this is not what was said! didja read the qntra piece ?
kakobrekla: it matter for propagation for instance.
PeterL: while I am saying the iners are just going to keep the older txn, regardless of fee
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 16:20:40; mircea_popescu: the protocol is that 0 fee txn can't even be relayed.
assbot: Satoshi asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option/src/main.h ... ( )
kakobrekla: i said the same.
punkman: so one thing that hasn't been mentioned, does trb even replace transactions when new one comes in with higher fee?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform looky, this isn't how this sort of discussion works, by giving counterexample.
mircea_popescu: punkman iirc no, but the plan was to get the pool sorted by per/kb tx fee
mircea_popescu: ring buffer and all that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: granted, i have nfi what the heathens run.
mircea_popescu: more importantly, "the protocol is X" "no because implementation y" "implementation Y is noncompliant" "no" "because ?" "uhhh"
PeterL: Where is the protocol documented?
kakobrekla: hm qntra just fucked up my comment. apparently you cant use < and > in comments huh
mircea_popescu: by and large, very broadly speaking, and insasmuch as a "bitcoin protocol" even exists at all - it says that 0 fee txn aren't relayed or included. now, how this is implemented in practice... w/e.
asciilifeform: PeterL: nowhere.
punkman: which implementations do you think would accept the subsequent higher-fee transactions (putting aside the fact that you couldn't see the first 0fee tx in anyone's mempool)?
mircea_popescu: PeterL ask vessenes and the merry friends/captains of industry/power rangers/etc
kakobrekla: who here has control over approving the comments ?
mircea_popescu: punkman you mean which implementations would accept a tx with a fee ? seeing how they wouldn't see the other one ? or what ?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla lol
mircea_popescu: prolly BingoBoingo
punkman: mircea_popescu: which implementations would accept a replacement tx with a fee, assuming they still have the 0fee tx in mempool
kakobrekla: thats a good q
mircea_popescu: from experience, the stuff the chinese miners run would, at least most of the time. historically i thought this is just random variance between divergent implementations, but now i think it's a single unit behaviour modulated somehow. also, this is essentially what "Replace by fee" is all about, iirc.
punkman: relevant: "Bitcoin Core will only allow replacement of transactions which have any of their inputs’ nSequence number set to less than 0xffffffff - 1." (in 0.12 release)
mircea_popescu: you have to understand that the direct correlate of "bitcoin protocol is nowhere" is that i'm stuck sitting here wasting tons of resources and various people's time doing an endless array of stupid or plain weird shit to see what happens to try and understand what's what.
mircea_popescu: the advantage being, of course, that i have a whole lot of canaries in all sorts of apparently unexpected places. the drawbacks... heh, let's not talk about that, i'll just get angry.
mircea_popescu: punkman the notion that prb is relevant to this discussion is shocking/ridiculous, depending on your mood.
kakobrekla: prb is what relayed your txes to the miner gates.
asciilifeform: a good chunk of the 'protocol' as i pictured it, turned out to be... promise.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla not even. prb is more or less the random noise.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sadly.
kakobrekla: who else is then connected to the miners? do tell?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: dark matter.
kakobrekla: i do not accept that answer.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla "that is not a bridge" "please build me a bridge over here so i can see this" "orly"
mircea_popescu: looky, not like you have to accept or not accept anything.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: dark matter is not 'mystery meat.' is is a thing that is definitely present but gives only indirect shadow of being there.
mircea_popescu: things are what they are, you make of them what you will.
kakobrekla: hence i dont agree with your interpretation of events (that bbet/you is targeted here - in which case its game over)
PeterL: I guess you cold test whether you are directly connected to miners or bridged by prb nodes: send a txn which prb does not like, see if it gets included in a block
mircea_popescu: well, you have a large pile of stuff to explain away then. i'd be curious to read the alt theory kakobrekla
PeterL: or did we do that and that is why we had to add the high/low s thing?
mircea_popescu: PeterL the general idea is there.
BingoBoingo: !up Luke-Jr May get an ack if "brick chicom miners" goes with it? Been hanging out with stroke victims recently and my brian is having sympathy deficits so I gotta defer to the peerage.
mircea_popescu: a lot of fingerprinting you can do by just listening. it's a large topic, this.
kakobrekla: im afraid you wont go for that because you dismiss things with "notion that $item is relevant to this discussion is shocking/ridiculous"
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla but it's not about me, per se, it's about the thing, such as it is.
kakobrekla: or " this isn't how this sort of discussion works, by giving counterexample."
mircea_popescu: but there's logic behind that!
mircea_popescu: what, you think asciilifeform accepted it as stated because he's afraid of me or something ?
punkman: has anyone else observed cases of tx being in mempool but not advertised to peers?
kakobrekla: thats up to him to answer.
mircea_popescu: that's actually a good thing to document punkman
asciilifeform: i accepted because i saw it alive right here.
asciilifeform: and have been picking up radar echoes of it for ~year.
kakobrekla: arguably i have more actual experience with sending txes than alf.
punkman: asciilifeform: did you manage to bet 5btc twice when your tx got stuck?
BingoBoingo: <kakobrekla> who here has control over approving the comments ? Approved nao
asciilifeform: and, for that matter, i predicted that miners would turn, long ago.
mircea_popescu: more generally, you can't bring arguments as to what the standard is on the basis of "look what this implementation does". the illustrative case of this being the four men in a dark room with an elephant.
kakobrekla: BingoBoingo one should be removed and one approved, hopefully you noticed that
asciilifeform: punkman: nope, but the bullet whistled by
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla> arguably i have more actual experience with sending txes than alf. << well, that was a discussion of mempools i thought, so i'm not sure this reduction is relevant.
kakobrekla: i have seend weird shit happen with mempools with my own very eyes.
Luke-Jr: BingoBoingo: "brick chicom miners" ?
mircea_popescu: so have i. so has everyone!
mircea_popescu: the problem is that "weird shit" just coallesced into everyone's worst nightmare.
mircea_popescu: !down Luke-Jr
mircea_popescu: get lost.
kakobrekla: i dont see the events that took place as randomly impossible
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: a whole fuckload of 'random' in one direction.
mircea_popescu: nothing is randomly impossible. i have no argument there.
asciilifeform: i can fall through the floor.
asciilifeform: randomly.
asciilifeform: physics - allows it.
mircea_popescu: this actually can happen, ftr.
asciilifeform: aha. tunneling.
mircea_popescu: enough space if the particles arrange just right
asciilifeform: more than enough.
kakobrekla: the odds of that are less than the odds of what we observed. and i think the odds of ko
kakobrekla: spiracy are also less than randomness.
kakobrekla: konspiracy*
mircea_popescu: well, incredibly enough, nobody has actually calculated the fucking odds, to support this view.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is not a thing you can actually do
asciilifeform: none of the necessary priors are known.
mircea_popescu: so then on what does he base himself ?
asciilifeform: wishes?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, i'm just asking.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla this is not even the first botched payout on bb!
mircea_popescu: i suppose you know, gut feeling. can go either way. which is why i said, doesn't have to accept anything.
asciilifeform: how many bullets do you need to catch before you stop saying 'meteorite' and shoot back.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the first set was ~arguably~ due to the malleator magically failing on select txn
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, which is why i did not ring the alarm.
mircea_popescu: which at the time i did buy as a sufficient explanation.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> historically i thought this is just random variance between divergent implementations, but now i think it's a single unit behaviour modulated somehow << Could be turdacious relay network or it's replacement's evil
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16315 @ 0.00056605 = 9.2351 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: <kakobrekla> BingoBoingo one should be removed and one approved, hopefully you noticed that << But you submitted two!
kakobrekla: one thing that goes through my mind is that trb/mps infrastructure is on the border of 'consensus' behavior of most nodes. this makes it more susceptible to odd/unwanted shit happening.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: we - or at least i - have nfi what 'most nodes' are or do. the sybils are not necessarily relevant.
kakobrekla: most nodes are idiots that run prb as built by core team
mircea_popescu: these "most nodes" don't even fucking figure in the node count.
mircea_popescu: what, 40% uptime ? ok ?
kakobrekla: BingoBoingo one however does not validat :p
mircea_popescu: by this measure most datacenters are in kenya.
kakobrekla: the 40% uptime nodes bring your tx to the miners, news at 11 or when are those.
mircea_popescu: so i thought. i dun think so.
kakobrekla: BingoBoingo feel free to remove the one that is br0ken and does not validate as far as im concerned.
BingoBoingo: Ok, will remove bad one once I make a pot of coffee and identify it
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla> one thing that goes through my mind is that trb/mps << this is true, but let me clarify that An set of txn were broadcast through a set of > 1k distinct peers. most of which i don't regard as peers in any sense, but nevertheless they did get to hear about them from my own nodes.
mircea_popescu: which aren't, at the present time, trb-tethered. it's a goal, but into the future.
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha so we have mircea_popescu's mpb mysterymeat in the mix.
asciilifeform: which we (other than mircea_popescu) have nfi what it does.
asciilifeform: in whatever cases.
mircea_popescu: hey, it's a protocol, right ?
asciilifeform: d bet money that there is some peculiar mpbism that is being exploited here.
mircea_popescu: i don't run homogenous stack tho.
mircea_popescu: for this fucking reason.
asciilifeform: especially then.
mircea_popescu: what can i say.
asciilifeform: heterogeneity in software is an illusion in every case.
mircea_popescu: if only. protocols would be so much easier to both design and implement, if this were true.
asciilifeform: and certainly there is nothing truly heterogeneous about 11 old versions of satoshi's crud.
asciilifeform: running on 4 generations of x86.
mircea_popescu: sure, in a general sense.
asciilifeform: ~usefully defensive~ heterogeneity is an illusion.
mircea_popescu: that wasn't contemplated.
mircea_popescu: informative heterogenity, however, is not.
mircea_popescu: one of the many protocol items that turned to be promises was - i shouldn't NEED any defense.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7885 @ 0.0005673 = 4.4732 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7000 @ 0.00056743 = 3.972 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: other than the obvious "they're getting sloppy" there is, of course, the alternative explanation that the current crop of miners roughly speaking stopped giving a shit.
mircea_popescu: the reward's halving, they regard their capital investment as ~worthless, and we have crossed bitcoin event horizon.
asciilifeform: i distinctly recall that trb sailed through the july incident while mpb did not.
asciilifeform: why was this ?
mircea_popescu: i distinctly recal trb nearly sunk in the other incident, while mpb provided the magic constants. why was that ?
mircea_popescu: why the fuck is anything. because software sucks ?
asciilifeform: prolly.
kakobrekla: anyway paying out the bet with a different set of inputs after you have made a broadcast of the signed tx from the first inputs even to a single node, without moving those inputs elsewhere first, is a noobish mistake. why you were unable to do that is a different matter.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trb didn't even get off the runway until magic constants, recall.
mircea_popescu: how is it a mistake ?
mircea_popescu: you think i'd rather have 18 btc than know all this ? i wouldn't.
kakobrekla: becase i assume you know once you put out a signed statement of spending some outputs those can actually be spent at a later time if they are still there.
mircea_popescu: part and parcel of how this all works.
kakobrekla: or should i say inputs. i always get confused with the two.
kakobrekla: its like gpg signing "i give you half of pile x" the reciever says "didnt get the message at all" and then you go ok nvm "i give you half of pile y" now.
mircea_popescu: this part isn't controversial.
kakobrekla: you dont have to accept it is.
mircea_popescu: wait, what ?!
kakobrekla: actually, to put it in another way, im surprised you are surprised over the events that happened given your set actions.
kakobrekla: set of*
mircea_popescu: whether i am surprised or not is not included in this discussion. i don't recall saying i was surprised, nor does over-the-lan telepathy historically work. moreover, my own state is deeply irrelevant : the problem is there, and it's grinning at you.
PeterL: I don't see a problem, you signed two transactions and they both were mined, where is the problem?
BingoBoingo: The timing
mircea_popescu: mkay then.
kakobrekla: if you arent/werent surprised means you sort of expected it?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.
kakobrekla: why go then sign another tx with fresh inputs to seal the deal ??
mircea_popescu: or at any rate something-like-it. of the vast array of various nonsense readily available in ample stores on this networked currency of the future.
mircea_popescu: so that the problem can be fully exposed, in detailed, solid fact, so as to be handwaved by people.
mircea_popescu: i'm a masochist like that.
PeterL: but what is the problem? seems the networked worked as advertised?
asciilifeform: PeterL: 'when it feels like it'
mircea_popescu: PeterL looky, i'm not going to carry on this conversation. i get it, you wish to be dense and stonewall. fine, but stop derping at me about it.
asciilifeform: in that sense - yes.
asciilifeform: i for one am disappointed, i expected there would be a lively thread re: the exact how-tos of applying boot to some well-deserved faces in the middle kingdom and elsewhere.
PeterL: tx1 was sent, included in a block at t1, tx2 was sent, included in a block at t2, the fact t1 and t2 are close together is just a coincidence, not a problem
asciilifeform: *well-deserving
mircea_popescu: did you get the part where tx2 is really tx1 and was sent 8 days prior to what you insanely call tx1 ?
PeterL: no, tx2 is not tx 1 because they have different inputs
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i've been thinking about it, but i don't think this is actually resolvable. as it happens - the "magically working network - we don't know how it works" thing is much more appealing to the average joe than you know, "this is my node. i will defend it with my life". what life, are you kidding, got sitcoms to watch and shit.
PeterL: t1 is after t2 makes sense since tx1 had 0 fee, while tx2 had a fee and was therefore included faster
mircea_popescu: so... no. you can't solve the problem of fiat through technological means, be they bitcoin or anything else. the same people that abandoned the fiat to "mysterious entity" will just as readily abandon bitcoin, and their own asshole.
PeterL: so the lesson here is "don't send 0 fee txen if you are not patient enough to wait a few weeks"
mircea_popescu: in other news, << bitbet payouts suspended as seen there.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you cannot solve the problem of hygiene with technological means, no.
asciilifeform: inventing the toilet is not enough, you have to go to it
asciilifeform: in pants - always easier.
mircea_popescu: so it is.
asciilifeform: it does not follow that toilet was a waste of time.
mircea_popescu: i am not in the slightest proposing this. i am saying however that the toilet may be part of the solution, but can't be THE solution.
asciilifeform: no shit!
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm in the business of fundamentals, apparently.
asciilifeform: hey it beats being in the business i'm in (swimming in tank of shit with shit-eating pirannhas)
asciilifeform: so far the only solutions i can picture divide into 2 classes,
asciilifeform: a) tmsr takes up some form of mining
asciilifeform: b) tmsr shows the vermin their place
asciilifeform: but if mircea_popescu coughts up a (c), i'll enjoy reading.
PeterL: what does it mean by b? what does this entail?
kakobrekla: as i mentioned before, if you really believe that miners are conspiring against bitbet (via known outputs and amounts) then its game over for bb.
kakobrekla: however my tin foil seems to be thick enough, for now.
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Could try roofing tin?
asciilifeform: PeterL: see thread re: keccak.
kakobrekla: BingoBoingo regular tin foil works for now where im sitting.
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Ok, are you sure you used the clip to connect it to ground though?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29700 @ 0.00056345 = 16.7345 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: yes, goes right to the water pipe under bathroom sink.
BingoBoingo: very good
BingoBoingo: Would be exemplary good if saltwater pipe
jurov: << so you used not your own money for such experiments. why am i not surprised?
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:15:50; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.
jurov: actually, i am surprised that nobody of bitbet shareholders was loud about this
assbot: A Miner Problem | Qntra ... ( )
mircea_popescu: lmao. why the fuck would you, or anyone else, expect me to spend my own money to resolve bitbet's problems ? what is this company, a charity conduit ?
jurov: people are sheep everywhere, i guess.
PeterL: jurov what do you think we have been complaining about?
mircea_popescu: this is what it does for its living : tries to extract value out of the greatly economically valuable bitcoin thing.
mircea_popescu: so far - it goes about as well as you'd expect.
jurov: when had transaction problem with coinbr withdrawal, i did not risk
jurov: and instead moved thhe change with big fee
jurov: and it wen mined eventually
mircea_popescu: this is fine ?
jurov: yes, because as opposed to mircea_popescu i did read the code closely and it does maintain chains of unconfirmed transactions
jurov: so, this is fine
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he asked about it, i saw no problem republishing.
mircea_popescu: i dunno what code you read or what you did when, but good for you!
jurov: all the code there is, does it
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd be curious re: what the 'technical solution' is.
mircea_popescu: makes two of us.
kakobrekla: needles to say i dont agree with mps actions or interpretation of the results, even if you take out the qntra comment.
mircea_popescu: jurov looky, this thing whereby in reaction to a "this guy is accused of having killed that guy and here's the smoking gun" you come up with a "hey, i fired a gun once, and the smoke went so and so" is a waste of time. you wish to construct an alternate theory, please, by all means, i would wish to hear it. but you must take ALL the points, and show that your path crossing them is cheaper than the one detailed on qntra
mircea_popescu: . you wish to contradict numeric results, fine, but show your own calculations in doing so.
mircea_popescu: i can appreciate gut feel, but it's no sort of argument as to anything.
mircea_popescu: other than that, obviously whenever something blows up everyone wishes to not have to be in the way. sure.
jurov: no, you constructed and pushed forward your notion of "bitcoin protocol" wich led to stupid actions with a money that was not even yours
kakobrekla: aha ^^
jurov: that someone used the stupidity against you, no wonder
asciilifeform: what, theoretically, would it take, to get a guaranteed block weekly ?
asciilifeform: i could've sworn we had this thread
mircea_popescu: and you're a poopynose!! ha-HA!!! calling names is how you solve problems you don't wish to consider! YAY KINDERGARTEN
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can't. because half hour delayed.
mircea_popescu: they'll reorg the shit out of you.
asciilifeform: so it's nukefest time, then.
mircea_popescu: consider it a sort of coke machine for miner rigs. inasmuch as you do exactly what they'd have done, you can keep it. else - reorg.
mircea_popescu: soon enough you'll learn
mircea_popescu: which is how this ended up here in the first place.
mircea_popescu: well no, it's "lalala i can't hear you" time.
jurov: no it's "lalalala all i did was very right and proper, it's YOU who have to come up with theory"
mircea_popescu: that's my priviledge. i'm the one actually doing things, there.
asciilifeform: possibly time to show'em 'кузькина мать' i mean.
asciilifeform: (is there even an engl. phrase for this?)
asciilifeform: tbh i'm a little surprised that mircea_popescu was pinching pennies on tx fees
asciilifeform: for whatever reason
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 16:35:04; mircea_popescu: you have to understand that the direct correlate of "bitcoin protocol is nowhere" is that i'm stuck sitting here wasting tons of resources and various people's time doing an endless array of stupid or plain weird shit to see what happens to try and understand what's what.
asciilifeform: so it was a reactor test?
mircea_popescu: you know how it sometimes happens that a platoon gets sent on a random patrol, ends up surprising a moving contingent of enemy, a flurry of radioing and reinforcing and whatnot happens and suddenly the front is in a new place ?
mircea_popescu: the platoon shareholders usually get butchered.
jurov: so, if in course if this recon you manage to completely obliterate bitbet's fund, you'll invoke your privilege and tell everyone to stfu??
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: re: reactor test << like how they tested the reactor in Chernobyl with a "stress test"
jurov: *during course of this recon
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19700 @ 0.00056344 = 11.0998 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: jurov: what, in place of recon by fire, would you do in his place ?
jurov: let me at least know im funding the war?
jurov: best to put straight into the contract: "This venture's funds may be used to enforce bitcoin protocol"
BingoBoingo: <jurov> let me at least know im funding the war? << Seems reasonable though BitBet particularly gets for the lesser versions of this shennanigans in the past. Perhaps something to do with its auditability.
punkman: so bitbet has to resolve 1800 btc of bets to cover the damage?
jurov: mircea surely has shown them!!!
BingoBoingo: <punkman> so bitbet has to resolve 1800 btc of bets to cover the damage? << MP would only have to bet a few hundred "No" on Trump to likely get money coming out of the woodwork to match it.
mircea_popescu: or whatever, give away a grand to the general public so that buffet can pretend like there are no berkshire shorts. or other stuff.
BingoBoingo: Who knows?
thestringpuller will be highly entertained by a trump presidency
mircea_popescu: jurov companies fold all the time. this is a thing. if in the course of their business they fail to make money, they'll lose exactly as much money as they lost.
mircea_popescu: jurov> let me at least know im funding the war? << i'm sorry, you thought bitcoin WORKED ?
mircea_popescu: holy shit, the warnings i haven't been putting out ;/
jurov: i'm living off it for some years, that's "works" for me.
mircea_popescu: i'm glad to hear. you think that's germane ?
asciilifeform: jurov would be astonished to learn what i live from.
asciilifeform: and how it 'works'.
mircea_popescu: the problem with broken things is exactly that - they "work" for you until they don't. at which point...
jurov: well, you keep asking people to wake you up when it stops working
jurov: so far i don't remember it happen
jurov: someday everything stops working, so what.
asciilifeform: '... and with strange eons, even death may die' (tm) (r)
asciilifeform: at any rate, i've been repeating, largely to deaf ears, since i showed up here,
asciilifeform: that it 'works' in the sense where a house of cards that nobody's pushed, stands up.
asciilifeform: house of cards is not the only possible kind of house.
asciilifeform: it is possible to build a concrete bunker, or even castle.
asciilifeform: but it has to be ~done~.
jurov: the pray tell mr. datskovskiy, why aren't s.nsa funds used to poke this house of cards?
jurov: it's business is much closer to this goal than bitbet
asciilifeform: jurov: by all rights they ought to be.
asciilifeform: jurov: and to the extent i blow my very little free time on trbism, they are.
BingoBoingo likes where this is going. S.NSA acquisition of BitBet to test miner turderations.
BingoBoingo: because for this purpose the valuable part of BitBet is the public addresses
asciilifeform: l0l what has BingoBoingo been smoking.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I've been hanging out at the hospital with Grandpa while he rehabs from his stroke. I think I might have a touch of sympathy cognitive impairment.
asciilifeform: jurov: considering that the only thing i am apparently good at is falling on grenades, i would happily sit on this one for you if i knew how.
BingoBoingo: There's no cure for being 91, but it is amazing the work physical and occupational therapists can do
mircea_popescu: jurov> it's business is much closer to this goal than bitbet << the argument, while in itself respectable, very much sadly not how things work. the jew on a ship, should the ship catch fire, will be a fireman whether he signed up for voyage as jew or as fireman.
mircea_popescu: but i'm first in line to say i'd much prefer a bitcoin protocol that was actually specified, and actually worked.
mircea_popescu: well, maybe not first in line, but anyway. somewhere in that line.
mircea_popescu: and now, if teh esteemed peerage may excuse me for a bit, i really gotta eat and make this smg report. so bbs.
jurov: *shrug* i know you want some insights as to the actual war, but whatever ricocheted shots came my way (ddos, tx problems), i solved myself in anti-#b-a ways without learning anything about the enemy
jurov: for example the ddos was solved leveraging aws infrastructure. but if the ddosers had half a brain, they'd have drowned me in aws bills
jurov: nope, so far largest attack was maybe $2
jurov: so i have my reservations about these scenarios you and alf present here
BingoBoingo: jurov: If it makes you feel any better as an embedded reporter in this conflict I sometimes wonder if, like those reporters Bush sent into Iraq and coming away with a polished view because I am not yet made to sleep in the hills with nagant and donkey.
punkman: I don't think "working" protocol means being able to assume signed and broadcasted tx has been forgotten and won't come back to bite you in the ass. What's in who's mempool is unknowable.
PeterL: even if it was removed from all mempools, would it be wrong for somebody to rebroadcast the txn, it was signed after all
kakobrekla: < correct. bitcoin, as is, is not a toy and not for idiots. pretty much #b-a mantra.
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 18:40:06; punkman: I don't think "working" protocol means being able to assume signed and broadcasted tx has been forgotten and won't come back to bite you in the ass. What's in who's mempool is unknowable.
PeterL: are you saying mircea_popescu is an idiot?
PeterL: Is it strange that we have had 10 empty blocks today?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24200 @ 0.0005634 = 13.6343 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: PeterL: it is entirely unsusprising that we have empty blocks
asciilifeform: in light of mircea_popescu's hypothesis.
danielpbarron: << perhaps my holdings aren't significant enough to have any weight on the issue, but nontheless I as a BitBet shareholder agree with the decision to draw attention to whatever issue at the expense of a few months of dividends. At the very least it can be seen as a marketing expense, BitBet being the catalyst to war against something truly rotten in bitcoin, something th
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:41:15; jurov: actually, i am surprised that nobody of bitbet shareholders was loud about this
PeterL: danielpbarron yes, but that would require there to be something rotten to fight against, I think mircea_popescu is just jumping at shadows
deedbot-: [Qntra] Anti Music Piracy Advocate Pirates Music Production Software -
danielpbarron: i think he knows more than I do about this matter, and I trust him when he says something is u
danielpbarron: up*, and who are you to say that he is wrong?
PeterL: I'm just a minor shareholder, my opinion doesn't count for much
danielpbarron: not that these are voting shares anyway, if you don't like it, sell.
punkman: I don't think this experiment is worth, say ~6 months of profits, but that's strictly the BB's board discretion.
ben_vulpes: !t m s.bbet
assbot: [MPEX:S.BBET] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: / / ( shares, BTC), 30D: 0.00007821 / 0.00008412 / 0.000121 (3930 shares, 0.33 BTC)
ben_vulpes: so far none of the bag^H^H^Hshareholders seem to give a shit
mircea_popescu: << this is specifically NOT the assumption. bitcoin being a working protocol however DOES mean that you should be able to assume that if a transaction is rejected, or not included, or delayed, or in any way treated or not treated it is solely on the basis of data COMPLETELY contained in that transaction.
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 18:44:56; kakobrekla: < correct. bitcoin, as is, is not a toy and not for idiots. pretty much #b-a mantra.
mircea_popescu: that's tghe problem here. something wasn't good for an entire week that suddenly became good. this selective-bitcoin is in no sense bitcoin,
mircea_popescu: and trivially can be shown to map exactly on paypal-usd.
asciilifeform: and if it even worked like the ocean,
mircea_popescu: which, youj know... also many people make a living on.
asciilifeform: where a ship can sink from matters unrelated to what is on board, but with known chance.
mircea_popescu: same ocean will sink same boat every time and float same boat every time.
mircea_popescu: this is the core of shipwrighting as a science
mircea_popescu: as opposed to prayer technology, say.
PeterL: but if there is wait-time-weighting being done by miners, then sitting for a week would make the transaction viable when it was not before
mircea_popescu: i don't want a fucking big-brother-bitcoin-from-china-san to pray to.
mircea_popescu: do you ?
mircea_popescu: i'm sure you could live with it. but that's a different question.
asciilifeform: i already live with one.
asciilifeform: don't want another.
ben_vulpes: china-san lol
asciilifeform: and it's 'grandpa of the iron ricebowl' in cn.
asciilifeform: not big brother.
mircea_popescu: PeterL that's an anachronistic argument. merely because they included it once B, you infer that they would have included it wherher B or non-B. this both fails tgo explain all the points prior to B that didn't include it (standard lifetime of mempool tx is about half the interval contemplated here) and the fact that you're drawing in the conclusion in the presumptions.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: did you pay to have a block mined including your transaction before sending the dup?
ben_vulpes: wondering if you saw it reorg'd out
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i did not.
ben_vulpes: because "from whom to rent"?
mircea_popescu: because you can't measure all things at the same time, basically.
ben_vulpes: sure sure
mircea_popescu: can give the show away etc.
ben_vulpes: give the show away?
kakobrekla: < sad to see it took you so long to notice/learn this. has been so since day 1.
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 19:14:47; mircea_popescu: that's tghe problem here. something wasn't good for an entire week that suddenly became good. this selective-bitcoin is in no sense bitcoin,
mircea_popescu: there's a significant difference between "this cave is infested with spiders" and "this cave is home to a spider queen the size of a camper van". at least to my eyes.
assbot: The IRS is using a system that was hacked to protect victims of a hack—and it was just hacked - Quartz ... ( )
mircea_popescu: spiders in 1st case you handle on a case by case basis. organized spider hive, you bring out a flamethrowing tank and sear it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ahahaha o god.
PeterL: wasn't the bitcoin foundation going to produce a protocol spec at some point, or is that on the list after the reference implementation is more developed?
mircea_popescu: this shit is hard to do!
mircea_popescu: yes, ideally, it should, eventually.
mircea_popescu: anyone writing up that irs story for qntra ? juices flowing every which way lol
trinque: As long as they keep their PINs secret, they should be safe from fraud. For this master plan to work, though, the IRS would also have to keep the PINs secret. << oh my god the win
mircea_popescu: this is good for fiat.
mircea_popescu: in other news at 4:42 - all money systems significantly more broken than previously realised.
asciilifeform expected a declaration of war, mildly disappointed!11
trinque: bot didn't eat it for some reason
trinque looks
deedbot-: [Trilema] MiniGame (S.MG), February 2016 Statement -
mircea_popescu: trinque doesn't like that there's multiples ? or what did i do wrong ?
mircea_popescu: awww alf, sorry to disappoint!
mircea_popescu: anyway, i've been working on that thing for two days in 30 second installments in between nutty bitcoin shit that shouldn't happen anyway.
deedbot-: accepted: 1
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i gotta ask, what happens to shares owned by the dead ?
deedbot-: accepted: 1
trinque: parser's borked
mircea_popescu: in general, unspecified, in particular cases, as agreed with the previously living.
PeterL: asciilifeform presumably they go to the estate of the decesed?
ben_vulpes: PeterL: no caselaw
ben_vulpes: and only if the estate controls the key!
PeterL: put the dispensation of your shares into a will, stick it in deedbot?
ben_vulpes: that'd be a contract between you and your broken, no?
ben_vulpes: broker*
asciilifeform: if somebody has the key, 'you' are still alive...
mircea_popescu: i could see the deedbot will thing.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu's thing doesn't care about what's in deedbot-, does it?
mircea_popescu: which one ?
asciilifeform: (just as if you lose your key, you are dead, though still breathing)
mircea_popescu: not afaik, no.
ben_vulpes wonders who else would k
PeterL: so really, asciilifeform's question is: what happens to shares if the key is lost?
ben_vulpes: the account persists on mpex until mircea_popescu cleans it out
mircea_popescu: now for that, we do have caselaw.
ben_vulpes: where in the log might inquiring minds read this caselaw, mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: wasn't there some guy with a lucrative eth contract that lost his key ?
asciilifeform: i might be mentally overextending traditions from the meat world, but wouldn't a lost key be different from a dead lord's in the sense where a man lost at sea differs from one buried with witnesses ?
ben_vulpes: a that
asciilifeform: lost - can reappear. theoretically.
mircea_popescu: yeah doesn't seem the same story to me either.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes seems exactly the same thing.
asciilifeform: (though, in pathological cases, the dead can rise again, say chetty wrote down her key somewhere, for whatever reason, and it is found)
mircea_popescu: recall the case of that woman that had a child with the dead ?
mircea_popescu: large patrimonial dispute maybe a decade ago
mircea_popescu: trophy slut of old man who died, had kid, claimed inheritance.
asciilifeform: not familiar with the case, but plenty of this in ww2 ?
mircea_popescu: family - less than thrilled.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, anyone know the joke with the rabbit and the bear ? the one with the beret
asciilifeform: i only recall the hedgehog.
mircea_popescu: which one was that ?
assbot: Logged on 21-08-2014 01:31:44; mircea_popescu: mkay. so in th forest there lived this very horny, huge schlong bear. sort of like one eye pete of the beardom.
mircea_popescu: so wolf and fox walk around the forest and they see a rabbit. fox : "let's beat the shit out of this loser" wolf : "we need a reason..." fox : "we'll ask him where's his beret... and if he has none, we beat the shit out of him!"
mircea_popescu: so the rabbit buys himself a beret.
mircea_popescu: next the two meet him, they ask for a cigarette. which he gives them. so they ask for a light. rabbit is all like "sure, what'd you like, match, ligther ?"
mircea_popescu: so they beat the shit out of him again
mircea_popescu: "why!" "where's your fucking beret!"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.00056431 = 15.575 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: this one's new to me, but i recall a similar.
asciilifeform: crocodile swimming in the river, sees monkeys beating a hippo savagely.
asciilifeform: he asks why
asciilifeform: they: 'for having such a big mouth'
asciilifeform: croc: 'ню-ню' (~= hmm, hmm.)
asciilifeform: (for n00bz, this is pronounced with maximally puckered lips)
deedbot-: [Qntra] Government Accountability Office Declines To Offer Opinion On Worthless USG Finances -
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100321 @ 0.00056259 = 56.4396 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10809 @ 0.00056211 = 6.0758 BTC [-]
pete_dushenski: if i may summarise the last 24 hours of logs, which i must say were eminently enjoyable save the lack of practical recourse discussed : bitcoin remains the world's worst payment network... except for all the others. and even still, not by much.
mircea_popescu: something like that.
pete_dushenski: hey, it's a living (tm) (r)
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Practical recourse was discussed in older threads
shinohai: I am cursing bitcoin today - had my first trb database crash ... evidently I did not back up *everything* required and must now start my first node from scratch.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: for users, sure. i found my own workarounds last month when i misattributed tx propogation failure to bitcoinj instead of bitbet taint. but for businesses ?
asciilifeform: shinohai: i think it is interesting that i've been kill -9 'ing trb since day 1 and never had this problem.
BingoBoingo: The solution is brick chicom miners
pete_dushenski: shinohai: o.O lame man
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: atomic war is expensive.
asciilifeform: for everybody.
trinque: never a bad thing to have a weekly cron which stops trb gently, rsync's blockchain elsewhere, restarts
trinque: shinohai: ^
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Then we will fend off the second round of rats with sticks
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the difference between kernel-mediated closedown and crash is that there's better handling of buffers.
asciilifeform: fair'nuff.
mircea_popescu: but yes, what trinque said is a very useful protective measure.
mircea_popescu: (make sure yo uonly rsync if you stopped it, tho!)
shinohai: This time I am backing up the entire .bitcoin folder, space be damned
asciilifeform: i have 3-4 trb nodez going, just on house lan, at all times, so backup sorta solves itself.
mircea_popescu: this also works.
asciilifeform: and quite likely the easist variant.
asciilifeform: *easiest
asciilifeform: run moar trb.
shinohai: I'm up to 2 nodes, but one is remote so isn't feasible to sync that way at this time I guess. Hopefully project budget allows for an extra dedi box this year sometimes.
asciilifeform: srsly, rsyncing the blockchain, wtfwhy
trinque: so then they all hit the same bug and chew their blockchains at once
trinque: that's wtfwhy
trinque: lol
asciilifeform: trinque: so have at least 1 on a workstation that gets backed up normally.
asciilifeform: (you have one, no?)
trinque: that's exactly what I said
BingoBoingo: node likely also needs battery
BingoBoingo: battery is good
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: mains battery and raid card cum battery, for best result.
asciilifeform recommends.
BingoBoingo is unfamiliar with cum cell battery
shinohai: I have a UPS that runs node. My problem occured today when I attempted to import a private key into wallet.dat
BingoBoingo: shinohai: That generally slows down node for entire blockchain rescan
trinque: takes quite a long time
shinohai: I didn't even get to the rescan part, just db error :/
trinque: the whole wallet is severely fucked in a number of ways
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32268 @ 0.00056185 = 18.1298 BTC [-] {3}
shinohai: It isn't very useful as a wallet unfortunately.
BingoBoingo: shinohai: Maybe write one in Shiva?
pete_dushenski: shinohai: may we all benefit from your mistake! /me scurries to make backups of backups
pete_dushenski: shinohai: and were you using polarbeard patch for the privkey import ?
trinque: !s polarbeard importprivkey
assbot: 0 results for 'polarbeard importprivkey' :
shinohai: No I was using the pywallet method I have used before. Today it just decided it didn't like it.
trinque: !s funkenstein importprivkey
assbot: 4 results for 'funkenstein importprivkey' :
trinque: pete_dushenski: I think it was herr funkenstein
trinque: unless there are two
trinque: I used funkenstein's, worked but the wallet's still unusable
pete_dushenski: trinque: aha. my mistake. you're correct.
shinohai: Now it works ok as a wallet if you use the generated keys, but that isn't practical on a live node.
shinohai: Must have way to import cold/paper wllets
shinohai: *wallets
pete_dushenski: shinohai: there's always (whisper it) from there you can zip off the coins to whatever live wallet or other address you might so desire
mircea_popescu: trinque> so then they all hit the same bug and chew their blockchains at once << no because heterogenous :D
trinque: trololol
trinque: to live in such days as the era of software!
trinque: I will need at least a sendrawtxn command soon lest I go mad with deedbot-, will most likely take a crack at it soon
mircea_popescu: with tools like these, who needs a horde of stampeding bulls on ecstasy.
pete_dushenski: since when do ibizans go to pamplona ? ;)
shinohai: I forgot about the heathen bc,info allowing that pete_dushenski. Unfortunately too late now, my client went elsewhere and I do not have my coveted BTC today.
pete_dushenski: << go figure that this ~exact~ tx withholding experience (combined with coincidence of trinque's and mod6's excellent scripts) lead me to set up battlefield trb node, which, yes, is defended with life. who says rape isn't educative ?! this is my asshole goddamit !!1
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:21:53; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i've been thinking about it, but i don't think this is actually resolvable. as it happens - the "magically working network - we don't know how it works" thing is much more appealing to the average joe than you know, "this is my node. i will defend it with my life". what life, are you kidding, got sitcoms to watch and shit.
mircea_popescu: i guess there's that.
mircea_popescu: ceterum censeo chicom esse delendam.
shinohai: Seinfeld plays happily in the background as i do trb work.
shinohai: Most TV is garbage anyway
pete_dushenski: << in other news you can use, bugatti has a released a successor to the 'world's fastest car', the 2006 veyron (and sub-variants). the new car is called the 'chiron' and it gives an excellent view as to fiat inflation in the last decade : the chiron is 2.4x the list price of the veyron, which works out
pete_dushenski: to 9% average annual inflation before you even account for the 11% greater production supply of the new model.
pete_dushenski: the chiron is basically as close as one can come to riding in the atomic dirigible of land travel.
shinohai: Bold design to say the least.
pete_dushenski: no word, however, on how much chicom in chiron. almost certainly non-zero.
punkman: pete_dushenski: the chiron is basically as close as one can come to riding in the atomic dirigible of land travel. << I'd take a UNICAT over the bugatti
assbot: UNICAT® › Expedition Vehicles › Special › UXL 17-HD ... ( )
pete_dushenski: punkman: for living, all day. for a-->b, depends on road quality!
assbot: Logged on 29-02-2016 21:52:34; ben_vulpes: << mount her on a bicycle, pilfer a bottle from the office, mash around the city on bikes, break onto the in-decomissionment sellwood bridge and fuck on it? iono man what does one do with random girls anyways
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 422.3, vol: 5801.00867275 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 424.816, vol: 7155.85995 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 422.69, vol: 17155.59828841 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 445.0, vol: 1.11745534 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 429.847446, vol: 77391.90040000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 421.17, vol: 1344.72873428 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 425.44305, vol: 43.21277498 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: 427.878368498
punkman: ;;interval
gribble: 553.8461538461539
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 400899 | Current Difficulty: 1.6349165490895926E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 401183 | Next Difficulty In: 284 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 19 hours, 41 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: ;;mtbf
gribble: Error: "mtbf" is not a valid command.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77580 @ 0.00056716 = 44.0003 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14658 @ 0.00056927 = 8.3444 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: The Dream of Buying a Coffee With Bitcoin Is Dying, If It’s Not Already Dead | Motherboard ... ( )
pete_dushenski: shinohai: heh. that dream has been deader than the animal fur on trump's head for 2 years and counting.
assbot: On Matters of Merchant Adoption | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( )
asciilifeform: some gentoo lulz:
asciilifeform: * Messages for package www-client/chromium-48.0.2564.116:
asciilifeform: * There is NOT at least 3 GiB RAM
asciilifeform: * Space constraints set in the ebuild were not met!
asciilifeform: since when does an ebuild get to distinguish between physical ram and available total (incl. swap) ?
asciilifeform: and who the fuck permitted this.
asciilifeform: what MOTHERFUCKING BUSINESS is it of the port what kind of ram.
asciilifeform: l0l, reading the src, apparently I_KNOW_WHAT_I_AM_DOING="true" cures...
phf: lunix on desktop! women in javascript! ubuntu!
asciilifeform: btw am i the only one who thinks of lumumba when hearing ubuntu ?
phf: you've got the socialist cheat sheet by way of having played this game before. others -- don't
BingoBoingo: ;;google How do I keep the squirrels in my yard away from my bird feeders
gribble: Solving Squirrel Problems at the Backyard Wild Bird Feeder ...: <>; Tips for Outwitting Squirrels - National Wildlife Federation: <>; Keeping Squirrels Off of Bird Feeder - YouTube: <>
phf: it's like every american "knows" who ghandi is, but who's ever heard of nehru?
asciilifeform: an old officemate of mine (now deceased, he was in his 80s) was, for some perverse reason, very boastful of having known nehru personally.
asciilifeform: had whole notebook of photos.
asciilifeform: but - he was not an american.
asciilifeform: though he worked for 58 years for usg and was in 'plum book' (emeritus, or whatever the heathens call it)
asciilifeform: poor fella, kept showing up even though he was no longer on the org chart.
asciilifeform: (retired on account of 'tired of reviewing my own self every year, it is a ludicrous farce')
asciilifeform: nobody would turn him out, he had the keys and - theoretically - outranked everybody, incl. base commander.
asciilifeform: (or so he insisted.)
phf: do you know what hurree babu really wants? he wants to be made a member of the royal society by taking ethnological notes.
assbot: Logged on 26-02-2016 18:42:55; asciilifeform: '‘Ach, sir, it iss worse when they become refractory! One man, I recall, clung to the bars of hiss cage when we went to take him out. You will scarcely credit, sir, that it took six warders to dislodge him, three pulling at each leg. We reasoned with him. “My dear fellow,” we said, “think of all the pain and trouble you are causing to us!” But no, he would not listen! Ach, he wass very troub
asciilifeform: it was actually from.. i'll call him dr. plumbook,
asciilifeform: that i even learned that plum book existed.
asciilifeform: he was, (shock!) very boastful of being listed (at some, then recent, past) in it.
asciilifeform: i heard that when he died, the very few folks whose employment survived his retirement, were finally sacked.
phf: i know a lot of career bureaucrats through my parents, and most of them tend to be very proud of chance associations, mentions, friendships, etc. "of note"
asciilifeform: (for n00bz who think 'it is impossible to be sacked from usg' - it is actually very easy. one merely has to be employed as a contractor, of whom there is a dozen or two for every actual 'civil servant', and then you can be fired any hour.)
asciilifeform: phf: aha. also.
phf: i'm pretty sure gogol made a few jabs at this particular feature of bureaucrat caste
asciilifeform: for some reason, every orc has, flashed into his firmware, this secret dream of becoming usg bureaucrat.
asciilifeform: why - i do not know.
asciilifeform: phf: i actually have met americans who read, e.g., 'overcoat.' in transl.
asciilifeform: (but, naturally, drew no conclusions.)
BingoBoingo: For some reason Birdfeeders remind me of the Maryland city known as "James Lafond presents Baltimore"
assbot: Tell us about bird behavior at your feeder - FeederWatch ... ( )
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (for n00bz who think 'it is impossible to be sacked from usg' - it is actually very easy. one merely has to be employed as a contractor, of whom there is a dozen or two for every actual 'civil servant', and then you can be fired any hour.) << Or appointee (i.e. patronage position)
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: appointees are not fired in the usual sense, merely sent back to do some identical thing on a corp. board.
asciilifeform: where they come from.
asciilifeform: then the next fella gets a turn at setting up graft flow.
asciilifeform: (for his 'consultancy'.)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Many are, but they first have to survive audition level appointment unless their scales are sufficiently silver
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37312 @ 0.00056954 = 21.2507 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: phf> lunix on desktop! women in javascript! ubuntu! << you know eulora is pretty much 100% woman-made.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> why - i do not know. <<it's the human love of variety. ends up making contrived shit seem appealing, especially to women (and castrated men, such as intellectuals and bureaucrats - which, by the way, are about the same thing)
mircea_popescu: every farm hottie in the mud envies the old lady her complex undergarments. blessfully unaware that the old lady needs the complex undergarments to mask the fact that there's no activity they'd get in the way of.
phf: mircea_popescu: but it's not written in javascript
mircea_popescu: damn close. c++
mircea_popescu: VERY BAD c++, also.
phf: pretty sure it's not these womens fault, eulora's upstream was "derps in gaming"
mircea_popescu: yup. slowly fixing it. but still.
jurov has after maybe a week of full lisp immersion managed to write a function that crashes eclisp cold. details withheld till i reproduce on another machine
mircea_popescu: this is your main talent, isn't it ?
jurov: and only 8 lines fitting in terminal!
jurov: yes, looks like that
phf: ftr i've worked with female programmers, on average not better or worse then males, who would've thought. i've also briefly worked with "women in javascript" and they are predominantly wreckers
mircea_popescu: phf usually "women in gaming" is a supercharged "women in javascript" thing. very politically driven drivel.
mircea_popescu: afaik eulora is strictly the only exception.
mircea_popescu: then again, gaming world is kinda opaque, who knows.
phf: friend of mine coined a term "tech dykes" years before it became a thing. bossy mostly lesbian girls who are good at pushing nerdy boys around, so work as program leads and agile consultants. but that was before there was a strong political component
mircea_popescu: this is a very good arrangement tho.
mircea_popescu: most gaming programmers are nerdy kids, hard to be motivated by males.
mircea_popescu: well, except if it's ben_vulpes
assbot: Logged on 03-03-2016 03:16:10; mircea_popescu: well, except if it's ben_vulpes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23000 @ 0.00056937 = 13.0955 BTC [-]
assbot: Thinkpad Hacking: LED Backlight Conversions ... ( )
asciilifeform: << in the same vein. also interesting, in the sense of what a strong fuck-you this is to modern laptop makers
assbot: Installing a QXGA display in a R/T60 or 61 - ThinkWiki ... ( )
asciilifeform: 'we will maintain our beloved boxes forever'
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