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(asciilifeform) adlai: reduced much faster when I begin 'fits-in-head'-ing instruction sets.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: verisimilitude: generally 'fits in head' machine archs.
(alethepedia) asciilifeform: ddting the maggots, the 'community', is a non-negotiable 1st step in terraforming an opensore into something that fits-in-head and can be relied on for serious work. everything else, can only come after.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: 'opensores' w/out fits-in-head is a demented concept of 'freedom'. like yer 'freedom' to jet fart through your arse and fly across atlantic. ('no one glued you to the ground! you have this freedom!')
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: take e.g. lazy evaluation. (in some esp. horrifying prog langs, is standard!) when is it actually a Good Thing from the pov of 'fits-in-head' ?
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: while this can be satisfying for the prisoner, it makes for a rather unpleasant experience for anyone who actually gives a fuck re 'fits-in-head' or quality in general.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: the non-negotiable starting points are 1) purge the fits-in-no-head liquishit 2) give attributability to all changes, and give a way for people to attest to having read & understood an artifact.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: newland0: the gnarl of traditional gpg , and the garbage hardware it runs on, are problems that i've worked on for many yrs. the former, i am attacking by slowly baking a fits-in-head replacement ; against the latter, built a RNG , and continuing to work on yet-other irons even nao.
(asciilifeform) snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-24 13:17:34 asciilifeform: discovered many yrs ago that you can 'troll' the vermin simply by writing fits-in-head proggies that actually work and use 0 'trend' garbage. even if not accompanied by any human-readable political statement. is why even sumthing like trb will ~never be mentioned in the heathen pits (in any context other than 'them terrorists..')
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform discovered many yrs ago that you can 'troll' the vermin simply by writing fits-in-head proggies that actually work and use 0 'trend' garbage. even if not accompanied by any human-readable political statement. is why even sumthing like trb will ~never be mentioned in the heathen pits (in any context other than 'them terrorists..')
(asciilifeform) GregoryNyssa: The early PCs, despite their drawbacks, were much closer to the "fits in head" ideal.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: the "why" in the shortest and calmest manner I can muster: because it's not needed; it's an additional headache without any benefits and by headache I mean - a whole pile of *additional* stuff to maintain (that flask thing surely was mentioned in the logs but note that it requires in turn a whole set of ???, look at it sometime); the lack of permanence ultimately because look at it, if I stop logging a channel, I'm stuck ...
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: ( this for 'fits in head' + for say , when you can't source the ic anymoar.. )
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: iirc from yesterday there was the idea of having a clear statement of the problem you are solving there, so hopefully it fits in your outline above; other than that sure, go ahead and write it so that there's something to look at and talk about; there's not all that much to say just on an outline at that level.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: if the answer given there matches *reality*, regardless of which of the two possible answers it is, you can go ahead and build on it and you stand a chance to succeed at the direction thus chosen precisely because it fits reality; if however the answer given does not match, you'll go the way that is ~guaranteed to result in failure as it's hallucinated rather than real.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: notably absent is any sign of (c) -- buyers who give half a fuck re auditability / 'fits in head' and buy what actually worx, per own grasp.
(asciilifeform) thimbronion: Well, you can't steal a fits in head cpu arch from anyone, so...
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: when the paper 'wealth' turns to toilet paper, they will have what they managed to physically build -- railroads, mines, cardboard ghost towns, etc.; and won't have, what didn't build (native 'fits in head' cpu arch; native os; crystallography labs that don't simply pull coordinates outta rng to fill paper queue, and could go on) and no more/no less.
(asciilifeform) asciilifeform: mike_c: i went with ultra-pedantic 'by hand' proofs, raher than sparkism, for the reason that sparkism, like other mecha-proof systems, aint 'free', the various nudges the compiler demands, conceptually 'weigh' something, and interfere w/ 'fits in head'.
(asciilifeform) snsabot: (trilema) 2018-01-17 asciilifeform: thing is, a sparkism is not a substitute for a 'fits-in-head'-correct routine.
(trilema) ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-13 22:25:42 mp_en_viaje: be very explicit because it greatly benefits you for us to know how you're fucked in the head. like the doctor gotta know if you've been fucking any skinny girls in behind-the-bar alleys.
(trilema) mp_en_viaje: be very explicit because it greatly benefits you for us to know how you're fucked in the head. like the doctor gotta know if you've been fucking any skinny girls in behind-the-bar alleys.
(ossasepia) jfw: For example, I'd been undervaluing my own time when it came to otherwise interesting things (also known as the "ooh, shiny!" problem); also, by not having been writing all along, there's a lot of missing context in the blog setup story - I did X because I had Y, because I'd earlier chosen to Z and so on until the article no longer fits in head
(trilema) BingoBoingo returned from overdue grocery run. Peaked at headlines and feels incredibly handicapped with current Turkey/US/NATO/Trump lolz happening and Qntra dark. Going to the basement to check pipe. Sky and forecast are hinting rain so any extraction further extraction tonight is going to be limited to rails and cables/whatever fits under raincover
(trilema) asciilifeform: of reversion to 'what fits in turnip head' mean aha.
(trilema) snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-19 05:47:32 mircea_popescu: trying to meta-smart, pseudothinking in your dumb head "if i were a literary character and these things happened to me, what'd it mean about the script" will not only fail to deliver any useful predictions (in the sense that it'll work EXACTLY as well as a RNG-choice, to perfectly fuck you over), but it will actually prevent you from deriving any benefits from the circumstance you're NOT a fucking literary character.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: trying to meta-smart, pseudothinking in your dumb head "if i were a literary character and these things happened to me, what'd it mean about the script" will not only fail to deliver any useful predictions (in the sense that it'll work EXACTLY as well as a RNG-choice, to perfectly fuck you over), but it will actually prevent you from deriving any benefits from the circumstance you're NOT a fucking literary character.
(ossasepia) asciilifeform: diana_coman: it aint all , sadly ( there remains the fact that if the folx i slave for were to close up, which is likely to happen at some pt, chances are that would have to return to shithole ) but is the most immediate practical headache. some folx can meet their commitments using tooling that fits in a suitcase; asciilifeform sadly is not 1 of'em. not even speaking of piz, even the gear used to prototype FG , would take up a sma
(trilema) asciilifeform: this particular 'africa' tho is prion-contagious. the software derps decided that 'it's still a valid program' when imports GB of autoconfolade and 'appears to work'. the maffs people decided 'it's still a proof' when imports a GB of softwareliquishit and fits in 0 heads. the physics folx , that 'it's still physics' if used an irreproducible machine built by great inca. whereas per asciilifeform all of these people are pulling own co
(ossasepia) shrysr: yes. that fits what i had in my head much better.
(trilema) asciilifeform: when unravelled -- plox to post, i will read. (and if find that actually fits into asciilifeform's head -- sign.)
(trilema) asciilifeform: all of this is 1) exceedingly gnarly , from 'fits in head' pov 2) requires a writable-and-executable memory segment. i.e. massive open wound.
(trilema) asciilifeform: perhaps asciilifeform oversaturates the colours, here, but i blame pete_d and his type for the fact that yes you can buy a diamond-encrusted ipnoje for 200k but you cannot buy a fits-in-head comp even for 200mil.
(trilema) asciilifeform: there is ~not~ a shortage of irons. but there ~is~ a shortage of soft that actually behaves to spec and fitsinhead.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 23:09 asciilifeform: incidentally, even a very brief look at the 1801 item confirms the troof of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896836 -- thing defo aint a 'and here is where the ameri-crystal does x' , it's a quite 'fits-in-head' object , very evidently produced from page-long spec of the orig instruction set
(trilema) spyked: re ffi, in that older research I've tried to avoid fast-running code in favour of fits-in-head, but I'll make sure to double-check in this iteration. the only www-related cffi dependency I recall was in cl+ssl, which I will remove on sight before genesis
(trilema) asciilifeform: incidentally, even a very brief look at the 1801 item confirms the troof of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896836 -- thing defo aint a 'and here is where the ameri-crystal does x' , it's a quite 'fits-in-head' object , very evidently produced from page-long spec of the orig instruction set
(trilema) bvt: OriansJ in #bootstrappable has a notion of hygiene (at least basic, ie groks fits-in-head), and still works on the stage0; i had no interaction with janneke (mes author) yet, so can't make claims about him. he does make some noise in the #bootstrappable and #guix
(trilema) asciilifeform: the forth-like notation admittedly requires some practice, for the unprepared ; but the win from it is a fits-in-head interpreter ( ch.17 -- 1024 ln; ch.18 , with subroutines , currently writing the docs -- 1516 , and not expected to ever grow much )
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: eat it as fast as comfortably fits in head but no faster.
(trilema) asciilifeform: all of these folx, afaik, do ~exact same thing, they take the school cpu from their kindergarten textbook and proclaim 'hey this fits in head, let's bootstrap on it'
(trilema) asciilifeform: picture if i had made ffa deal in 32bit words, and then proclaimed 'implement bignum on that'. do you imagine the result would be in any sense 'fits in head' ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho half of 'fits in head' is specifically ~refraining~ from gilding the lilies that dun need gilding.
(trilema) asciilifeform: constanttimeized stein's o(n^2) gcd ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2963 ) is not only imho fast enuff (even a magical 100fold speedup in it, would not affect speed of rsa key gen measurably , consider above ) but fits-in-head and has no error terms.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i find it hard to picture how a sane cpu, where optimizing compiler is 10k loc and 'fits in head', could have no market. but then again the bolix people proved that it ~is~ possible to go broke with one.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( afaik the last 'fits-in-head' kernel was 1.sumthing... )
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: verily, if you try an' bake an item that 'fits in ALL heads', end up with marx, christianity, etc
(trilema) asciilifeform: ffa in particular is intended as , among other things, a didactic demonstration of what means 'fits-in-head'.
(trilema) verisimilitude: Sure; my system I have in mind to make as perfect as I can certainly fits in a normal-sized head, or should.
(trilema) asciilifeform: !#s fits-in-head
(trilema) a111: 74 results for "fits-in-head", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fits-in-head
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is in principle possible to write 'fits in head' c proggy, but afaik the last who knew how was d. ritchie..
(trilema) bvt: myeah, complexity does not go too well with both constant-time and fits-in-head.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-12-28 20:35 asciilifeform: diana_coman: sadly i do not know how to 'guarantee perfection'. all i know how to do is to bake maximally 'fits in head' and bank that the folx here will find mistake if it turns out that i made one.
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: sadly i do not know how to 'guarantee perfection'. all i know how to do is to bake maximally 'fits in head' and bank that the folx here will find mistake if it turns out that i made one.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-08-21 18:28 asciilifeform: all i particularly care for in re scripting is to obtain a replacement for perl/python/bash where the interpreter is simple (i.e. readable, fits-in-head, auditable, correct)
(trilema) asciilifeform: the attribute which permits this approach, vs haskellism and other idolatrous rituals to mechanical molloch, is called 'fits in head'.
(trilema) asciilifeform: not fits in head ? not proven. ( i did not say ~whose~ head, but imho safe to suppose that whole f# microshitiana garbage pail fits in no head )
(trilema) asciilifeform: proof is proof when it fits in head, now just as in euclid's time.
(trilema) asciilifeform: and 'how not to crypto', pretty good illustration of the tension between 'machine proofs' and 'fits in head' (author resolved wholly in favour of the former and took a tall shit on the latter)
(trilema) asciilifeform: and 'fits in head' demands fit-in-page-preserving-indentation.
(trilema) asciilifeform: and if anyone can think of a shorter one that still 'fits in head', plox to post, and i'ma link to it.
(trilema) asciilifeform: so to return to orig q , imho 'job of physicist' is 1st, and above all, to work so that 'physics' ~fits in head~ and thereby remains a legitimate item.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Thankfully much of Montevideo fits in head
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-08-21 18:28 asciilifeform: all i particularly care for in re scripting is to obtain a replacement for perl/python/bash where the interpreter is simple (i.e. readable, fits-in-head, auditable, correct)
(trilema) asciilifeform: all i particularly care for in re scripting is to obtain a replacement for perl/python/bash where the interpreter is simple (i.e. readable, fits-in-head, auditable, correct)
(trilema) asciilifeform: 1 well-understood system 'to rule'em all', fits in head and demonstrably bug-free , and babel -- ends.
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-22#1828567 << ideally would be the smallest working 'fits in head' lisp, no frills ( no gc, etc )
(trilema) asciilifeform: Mocky: not merely this. there is also a set of human-enforced conventions re: 'fits-in-head' of any proposed change.
(trilema) phf: i can obviously fix btcbase to be more useful (i.e. continue to aid the patch exploration) in cases where a patch is big, but in general a 9mb patch seems to go against the whole fits in head
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-05-01 14:59 trinque: and in service to fits-in-head
(trilema) trinque: and in service to fits-in-head
(trilema) asciilifeform: spyked: i dun have anything against mechanical proof per se; but it is NOT a substitute for fits-in-head, because there is nor cannot be any such substitute. and the mass of the theorem-verifier is to be included with the mass of the program, for the purpose of 'is this head-fittable'. but possibly i repeat old thread.
(trilema) asciilifeform: in any case fits-in-head MUST come ahead of 'proofiness'.
(trilema) a111: 219 results for "fits in head", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fits%20in%20head
(trilema) asciilifeform: !#s fits in head
(trilema) asciilifeform: but i have a somewhat different approach, which i call 'fits in head'
(trilema) asciilifeform: i do not have anything against mechanized proof per se. but in practice it is in ~100% of published cases used as an attempted 'i can't believe it's not self-evident correctness!' margarinesque substitute for fits-in-head.
(trilema) mod6: one file, != fits in head
(trilema) caaddr: I wonder how early in such a stack you would add the kind of compile time protections that ada guarantees. compile time protections seem to be the hardest thing to keep a programming language at "fits in head" size
(trilema) mircea_popescu: the strong statement here is that the ~only~ possible identity bits of code have is based on ~personal memory~. to revisit the oft used bubblesort example -- any particular implementation of bubblesort IS bubblesort because ~you~ recognize it as such and for ~no other reason~, factual ~or possible~. consequently fits in head as the basis of code identity.
(trilema) asciilifeform: thing is, a sparkism is not a substitute for a 'fits-in-head'-correct routine.
(trilema) asciilifeform: or for that matter, usable maxwell. ( modern electronic design uses a narrowly restricted, i.e. sorta-fits-in-head special form of maxwell )
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one of asciilifeform's persistent crackpotteries, is to reforge this sword. i.e. make comp that fits in kid head .
(trilema) mod6: I had started a new V in Ada, had to stick it in the drawer for a while. Not getting to exactly where I wanted to go (easy to read, fits in head, no perl/perlisms) with it at this time.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i.e. 'how about fitsinhead'
(trilema) phf: right, i think perhaps the problem of this particular turn of phrase, is that he can't actually name what makes him a better than average programmer (like ascii's fits in head, or Principles, or), so he's reduced to a shortcut that is insufficient
(trilema) asciilifeform: idea being explicitly anti- fitsinhead, i.e. 'make program behave like ensemble of physical objects'
(trilema) phf: apparently he also argues for fits in head as the only proper measure elsewhere, but i can't find the source of quote (possibly person who implied it is a log reader, and just reused the variety speak)
(trilema) asciilifeform: but there are already plenty of haskellists writing nonsense. asciilifeform wanted an actually usable fits-in-head item.
(trilema) asciilifeform: and if i were a haskellist and writing with an eye toward ~machine~ proof, rather than fits-in-head, i probably would have written one.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "fits in head".
(trilema) a111: 132 results for "fits in head", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fits%20in%20head
(trilema) asciilifeform: !#s fits in head
(trilema) asciilifeform: it however is a gangrene that will grow ANYWHERE where fits-in-head is not an iron principle.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i'm concerned with 1) timing leak 2) fits-in head --- strictly.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( unless and until i were to hammer it into MY head such that it wholly fits )
(trilema) asciilifeform: it does not fit in my head, and i am not convinced that the folx who claim that it fits into theirs, ain't lying
(trilema) mircea_popescu: which fits in SOME heads, liek galois' in 1800s or the fermat thing recently.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: so then if joe claims the "Streamlined" rsa fits in his head, what do you do ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: a proper fits-in-head item fits in the literate man's head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i can state with confidence that kochiana fits in NO head
(trilema) mircea_popescu: how do you judge what fits in another's head ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: i'd like it not to be lost upstack, so will restate ftr : a 'optimized' rsa that no longer fits in head and is no longer demonstrably-correct , ( and worse yet, no longer operates branch-free ) is NOT RSA and is simply a turd being fraudulently passed off as the genuine article
(trilema) asciilifeform: the process is 'must fit in head'. for so long as item fits in head, it is demonstrably solving the stated problem ( which, unsurprisingly, must also fit in head as a statement )
(trilema) asciilifeform: !#s fits in head
(trilema) a111: 123 results for "fits in head", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fits%20in%20head
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'outer case limit' is somewhat of an oversimplification : the thing fitsinhead so poorly, that to this day i am not fully certain why so abominably slow ( other than the abstract fact of 5-6 layers of complexity doing their impedance-mismatch thing together )
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-31#1707320 << this knife has another edge, ben_vulpes . most commercial ops don't have the budget ( time, mainly , but money also ) for ActuallyWorksAndFitsInHead(tm). ( picture, if you will, ffa as a commercial project at a secular software co )
(trilema) a111: 121 results for "fits in head", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fits%20in%20head
(trilema) asciilifeform: !#s fits in head
(trilema) asciilifeform: #!s fits in head
(trilema) shinohai: This is why we have asciilifeform 's "fits in head" (tm) (r) (tmsr)
(trilema) spyked: valentinbuza, maybe not, but then if you have everything loaded in head, the most you can do is rip the useless parts apart and leave *only* what fits into the problem at hand. which turns "framework" into "item that solves particular problem". it is essential to not leave *anything else* there.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: re http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/04e-the-myth-of-software-engineering-iii.html << hjere's the thing, let's posit that an object larger than what fits in head can not exist. this may seem counterintuitive, but it happens to also be correct. now, the direct solution to the problems of "exponential dependencies" and "clarity of purpose" and so on is that these have to be defined by domain boundaries. once you have this implemen
(trilema) asciilifeform: spyked: ever heard of 'fits in head' concept ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: because antifitsinhead.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: what fits in head depends also on the structuring of the head.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <erlehmann> large scale deployments are always driven by statistics. i once read that many stats have no bike helmet laws because lawmakers are convinced this would reduce biking to the point where more cardiovascular diseases outrun benefits of less head injuries. << For all the idiocies Illinois does participate in, it refrains from helmet laws. This means the occasional perosn riding a chromed up cruisers with a DOT non-compliant Pick
(trilema) erlehmann: large scale deployments are always driven by statistics. i once read that many stats have no bike helmet laws because lawmakers are convinced this would reduce biking to the point where more cardiovascular diseases outrun benefits of less head injuries.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-07-15 05:13 erlehmann: i use GNU unifont wherever i can. fits in head.
(trilema) mod6: <+asciilifeform> which, btw, imho is intrinsically unsuitable for a fits-in-head rsatron, it is extremely gnarly and uses float approximations that get magically unfudged back to int, etc << ugh. right.
(trilema) asciilifeform: which, btw, imho is intrinsically unsuitable for a fits-in-head rsatron, it is extremely gnarly and uses float approximations that get magically unfudged back to int, etc
(trilema) erlehmann: i use GNU unifont wherever i can. fits in head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: aka fits-in-head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: FIRST you write the fits-in-head minimal ffa-like thing. THEN you spark.
(trilema) asciilifeform: generalization of karatsuba, but pretty useless for fitsinhead rsatron imho
(trilema) mod6: head-fits-in-ass
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( and -- fits-in-head !! )
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: except that the monster lang never fits in any head.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: FITS IN HEAD MOTHERFUCKER
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 00:38 asciilifeform: ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )
(trilema) phf: that's a tricky request, but the tenets are around shitlangs differentiation, "fits in head", v as a way of releasing code, what it means to own a piece of technology. there's a handful of threads that had definitive conclusions, that i consider tenets (i think the word should be in quotes to indicate that while not true tenets, violating them will require reopening large threads)
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )
(trilema) asciilifeform: !~later tell phf didja change something on tehl0gz www recently ? it no longer fits on my displays w/out horizontal scrolling, is a headache
(trilema) asciilifeform: brothels ain't an organized effort to take a massive shit in my fits-in-headization of the comp.
(trilema) asciilifeform: because it is a ludicrous proposition -- massive ball of shit, that makes gcc look compact and fits-in-head.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: fits in head has bene-fits
(trilema) sina: basically once it's >fitsinhead, nobodies gonna audit it
(trilema) sina: yeah, I definitely appreciate the fitsinhead thing
(trilema) asciilifeform: sina: the other thing is, life-critical code gotta be fitsinhead.
(trilema) erlehmann: asciilifeform what do you use as shell? i use rc shell, because grammar fits in head (actually, grammar is written on man page).
(trilema) asciilifeform: but they are not a replacement for Fits In Head
(trilema) asciilifeform: but married to x86, and certainly not fits-in-head.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-05-17 13:47 diana_coman: it certainly fits it perfectly, yes; and overall it also fits the more general pattern: the moment everyone gets to do it, one can tell that "it" is a. only a pale shadow of itself, b. going to shit full-speed ahead anyway
(trilema) diana_coman: it certainly fits it perfectly, yes; and overall it also fits the more general pattern: the moment everyone gets to do it, one can tell that "it" is a. only a pale shadow of itself, b. going to shit full-speed ahead anyway
(trilema) mircea_popescu: but this phenomenon exists whereby girl ends up in trouble for reasons which, upon later examination, turn out to not actually exist. that the whole thing was actually a misunderstanding is proof positive the entire system fits in no one's head : not in mine, who misunderstood what was going on, not in the girl;s herself, who, confronted with the misunderstanding, failed to identify what to say to dispel it.
(trilema) asciilifeform: in this case, correctness & fits-in-head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: thing is optimized for -- strictly -- constant (always-worst-case) time and space usage; and fits-in-head (in that order)
(trilema) lobbes: But re: fits in head. Isn't phf's/alfs argument that you cannot really even audit said generalized glue?
(trilema) trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641431 << that this is wrong, and letting data access patterns ~between distinct algorithmic components of your system~ be built in ad-hoc manner destroys fits-in-head for the entire system
(trilema) trinque: I'll close with the observation that asciilifeform's "fits in head" serves "build to iterate and throw away" very well.
(trilema) phf: well, presumably all this only applies when you have fits in head. otherwise you have to fallback to counterparty
(trilema) phf: we were comming from the direction of debian on 10 cds though, so restating my original point: i think bootstrapping can be solved with counterparty as an alternative to fits in head, i.e. i don't mind an approach where in order to bootstrap i get a binary from l1, that i use as a rich subtrate from which i can bootstrap.
(trilema) phf: i think i see why we got on this thread. i was saying that bootstrapping is always a counterparty problem. i missed that that's not the case for fits in head (i think ascii might've tried pointing that out to me).
(trilema) mircea_popescu: in other news, toshiba seems headed for the ex-bin. after the "we made up 7bn profits over the past 6 years and are really losing 5bn a year atm" 2016 lulz, they've announced a 3.5bn looting by the usg this year.
(trilema) asciilifeform: not quite 'fits in head' machine, but 'fits in book'
(trilema) asciilifeform: trinque: there is no tangle properly speaking ~in~ their skull. when proggy no longer fits in head, programming turns into a brute physical, rather than intellectual activity
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-02-11 00:27 asciilifeform: ROP is why you want not only 'fits-in-head' source of proggy, but the smallest binary physically possible.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ROP is why you want not only 'fits-in-head' source of proggy, but the smallest binary physically possible.
(trilema) asciilifeform: and the only countermeasure is to keep the changes to grandfather's pistol, minimal, reviewable, 'fits in head.' and to retain old mechanisms when practical.
(trilema) asciilifeform: is in no real 1980s sense 'fits in head'
(trilema) ben_vulpes: the situation's a good example of the tension between writing code that does one thing really specifically well, and fits-in-head, vs a larger program that handles eg conditions and the concomittant complexity
(trilema) phf: metafont fits in head
(trilema) asciilifeform: it isn't even about 'attack surfaces', but for getting maximally compact description. i.e. fits-in-head.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:18 adlai has been reviewing math towards next month's semester start. just encountered a beautiful "fits in head" derivation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AngleAdditionDiagramSine.svg
(trilema) adlai: go ahead, mircea_popescu, say that the gzipped txt fits better in yours
(trilema) adlai has been reviewing math towards next month's semester start. just encountered a beautiful "fits in head" derivation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AngleAdditionDiagramSine.svg
(trilema) asciilifeform: the sleep of fits-in-head breeds monsters.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: check him out, adept of fits in head, worried about not being able to find the broken code HE SHOULDNT HAVE HAD. pshhh
(trilema) asciilifeform: let's revisit thread - what part of 'fits in head, and speccable, or doesn't-fit-in-head, unspeccable, t. non d.' does mircea_popescu disagree with ?
(trilema) scriba: Logged on 2016-09-13: [17:51:53] <asciilifeform> the reason why we ~have~ spec-by-program is because it is the only actual alternative to fits-in-head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: the only computer program that qualifies to be thought of as an ideal object is one which fitsinhead.
(trilema) asciilifeform: the reason why we ~have~ spec-by-program is because it is the only actual alternative to fits-in-head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: and not fits-in-head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: but 'fits in head, except for this massive part that presently fits in no head' is not same as 'fits in head'
(trilema) asciilifeform: g_l: really now, fits in head, incl. the font engine crap etc. ?
(trilema) g_l: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-30#1531840 < CLIM fits-in-head, and the final showstopping error (X11 related crap) has been reduced to a simple test case, and is in the process of being solved.
(trilema) asciilifeform: (for which the toolkit includes, e.g., 'fits-in-head')
(trilema) phf: it doesn't satisfy our own requirements of fits in head, it goes through a rube goldberg machine in order to produce a specific build for a specific system. "mac os x? fuck you. openbsd? fuck you". it doesn't succeed at own goal of producing bit identical builds.
(trilema) ben_vulpes: but the notion of a "fits in head" ethereum contract boggles the mind, so.
(trilema) asciilifeform: the correct answer, from the twin standpoints of reliability and fits-in-head - is bitcoinfs.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fits-in-head means that i get to huffmanize TO THE MAX
(trilema) mircea_popescu: omfg what the fuck do you think "fits in head" means.
(trilema) asciilifeform: which is a fallacy because... correct-c still is not conducive to fits-in-head; is not readily distinguishable by naked eye from underhanded-c; cannot provide rational guarantees of handling error conditions mid-way; and 10,001 other defects that don't look like defects to folks who grew up with crippled systems
(trilema) a111: 80 results for "fits in head", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fits%20in%20head
(trilema) asciilifeform: $s fits in head
(trilema) mod6: I'm a bit hesitant to "sign" a file outright that I don't have carnal knowledge of -- say openssl - at least without a disclaimer that says "I am only confirming the SHA512 of this artifact is ABCDEF1234... This does not mean that I have read that code and it ``fits in head''."
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2016-06-19 03:45 asciilifeform: which is to say, the tokamak folks are about as interested in desktop, $1000 fusion (of ~whatever temperatures~) as the maths dept at your uni is interested in elementary proof of fermat, or the software 'industry' - in 'fits in head', etc.
(trilema) asciilifeform: which is to say, the tokamak folks are about as interested in desktop, $1000 fusion (of ~whatever temperatures~) as the maths dept at your uni is interested in elementary proof of fermat, or the software 'industry' - in 'fits in head', etc.
(trilema) asciilifeform: a fits-in-head library with no loose parts and no sharp edges can be used as it is.
(trilema) trinque: and thus entirely not "fits in head"
(trilema) trinque: doesn't this run directly against your fits-in-head thing?
(trilema) asciilifeform: the only actual knowledge is what fits in heads.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: science as "fits in head" is not exactly practicable anymore.
(trilema) phf: flask is not standalone though, it's a wsgi service, which in turn is a python standard for doing "web application". there are competing servers for wsgi, uwsgi being most popular. i actually had to patch it for my work production, and it's not a fits in head by any means
(trilema) asciilifeform: where he 'fits in head'.
(trilema) phf: exponent fits in head
(trilema) asciilifeform: 1.1MB TGZ of src !11 this does not appear to be in any serious way 'lighter' or more fits-in-head-sy than x11.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in the interest of fits-in-head - sure
(trilema) mircea_popescu: this is WHY your "fits in head", btw. well justified cover for the "on the basis of the pi we know, the largest house that can stand is 11 feet tall"
(trilema) adlai: 'fits in head' has another interpretation.
(trilema) davout: anyway, my point is that if nobody remembers, that nobody bothered to blog it, the fact that completeness is a problem might indicate a violation of fits-in-head
(trilema) asciilifeform: because 'correct' MEANS, among ither things, fits-in-head.
(trilema) thestringpuller: asciilifeform: when I hear "fits in head" >> http://cdn2.thegloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Knowledge.gif
(trilema) mircea_popescu: within "minutes", where "minutes" just neatly fits in the cartel head-of-best-chain report delay.
(trilema) asciilifeform: minimal as specified in r5, AND ts does not fully implement r5 (largely in the interest of fits-in-head, but also original author's laziness)
(trilema) mircea_popescu: forget fits in head, this doesn't even fit in ass.
(trilema) asciilifeform: tinyscheme fits in head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: remember 'fits in head' ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: it intereferes with fits-in-head and therefore harmful.
(trilema) asciilifeform: what i wanted was a generic, fits-in-head (a few 1000 lines of c, no deps) stateless, 'protocol-less' cipherator that one could put, e.g., ftp over
(trilema) punkman: "because why trust on a single cryptographic primitive" << because it's nice if the whole thing fits-in-head, and even if you cascade there is still the possibility of meet-me-in-the-middle attacks or I dunno what else
(trilema) asciilifeform: k's essay was really about 'fits in head'
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-02-2016#1396374 << sorta what bernstein tried to do. fits-in-head ciphers.
(trilema) assbot: Logged on 04-02-2016 15:56:22; ascii_butugychag: punkman: fits-in-head only plox.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: fits in tweet no guarantee of fits in head, head can overflow buffer and leak memory too
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: punkman: fits-in-head only plox.
(trilema) thestringpuller: the rule of thumb "fits in head" helps with the notion of owning device which when understood could "fit in head".
(trilema) mod6: As soon as we have our new build process in place, and it's sane, and "Works" and "fits in head" and all that, then we'll release.
(trilema) thestringpuller: can't imagine 1mb vpatch that "fits in head"
(trilema) mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually may want to write him a letter, iirc he was also all about fits in head but arrived there on slightly different path
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: 1) fits-in-head. also known popularly as 'knowing precisely wtf you're doing'
(trilema) BingoBoingo: whitespace is all about fits in eyes, not head
(trilema) asciilifeform: and also don't wait for me to write a fits-in-head and provably non-misbehaving btc client, even though i would much like to, know exactly how, and even have bits'n'pieces sitting around. because instead of this i'm stuck doing pointless crud in шарашка, so as to eat.
(trilema) assbot: Logged on 12-01-2016 20:57:40; trinque: mircea_popescu │ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367833 << i can't discern which side you're taking. << the side with mostly (if not *entirely*) plain english, and even better, represented as an explicit tree with s-expressions. that one can parse the hieroglyphs when he's habituated to them... fine, but I thought we were after "fits in head" here. how much skull-space does that
(trilema) trinque: mircea_popescu │ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367833 << i can't discern which side you're taking. << the side with mostly (if not *entirely*) plain english, and even better, represented as an explicit tree with s-expressions. that one can parse the hieroglyphs when he's habituated to them... fine, but I thought we were after "fits in head" here. how much skull-space does that
(trilema) mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> RSA offers a longer hisotry of being studied and attacked << more importantly, it actually fits in head. a 12 yo's head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: there is such a thing as fits-in-head
(trilema) phf: so what do you do when not everything fits in head?
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <jurov> whether "stratum" protocol fits in head for easy control, that's another question. << A lot of this. I'm imagining and "electrum" that isn't actually electrum. i.e. not a big ball of whatever that desperately wants to advertise to the world exactly what it is. basically a different better database client setup. May break down and learn to make code enough to shit one out by 2030.
(trilema) jurov: whether "stratum" protocol fits in head for easy control, that's another question.
(trilema) phf: in 60 years will be using "f", a fits in head filesystem implementation by ascii, that can store terabytes of data, but technically indistinguishable from tape archive
(trilema) asciilifeform: the old saw, 'you own only what fits in one hand while firing with the other' is not applicable if using two-handed weapon. because then, you own only what fits in head (and arse...)
(trilema) mircea_popescu: fits in head, i suspect, is just your bait and switch to make the world "fits in ass".
(trilema) ascii_field: it is important to remember why we came up with the whole shebang of 'fits-in-head 1-page' patches, 'v', the lot
(trilema) phf: fits in head
(trilema) asciilifeform: the champ in re: fitsinhead appears to be, mega-unsurprisingly,
(trilema) asciilifeform: my other objection is that the ~implementation~ usually ends up being ludicrously complex and not-at-all fitsinheady
(trilema) ascii_field: understand, i have no objection to tools such as computerized theorem-proving, data flow analysis, etc. except in that these are put forward as ~substitutes for fits-in-head simplicity~.
(trilema) ascii_field: my other problem is that i have not yet found an implementation of ml language that fits-in-head.
(trilema) ascii_field: from usg's point of view, ANYTHING is better than having folks wake up to cpu-with-bounds-checking-on-all-ops and fits-in-head
(trilema) ascii_field: invariably subtracts from fits-in-head.
(trilema) asciilifeform: it is important to know why items such as picolisp and mulisp exist - compactness. (and to a lesser extent, 'fits in head'.)
(trilema) pete_dushenski: university was 'fits in head'
(trilema) assbot: Logged on 09-09-2015 11:39:38; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267236 << the path to fits-in-head STRICTLY depends on every particular thing on the machine being implemented ONCE. this includes lexer, parser, related items.
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267236 << the path to fits-in-head STRICTLY depends on every particular thing on the machine being implemented ONCE. this includes lexer, parser, related items.
(trilema) asciilifeform: this means fits-in-head.
(trilema) ben_vulpes: "fits in head" is a realistic goal with python, perl and cpp?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: fits in head


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