watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790
watchglass: 108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.109s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642732
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.086s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.210s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.214s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790
watchglass: 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.326s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=296962 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.284s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790
watchglass: 188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.244s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.395s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.578s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=642790
shinohai is testing new ircbot written in sh, may have it join later to test log if asciilifeform doesn't object ....
shinohai: Alas, I have not enough punch cards to bring cobolbot to life.
shinohai: Well that's why I'm testing stability of bot right now. Plans are to have it V'd up by end-of-month
shinohai: Same as most any other irc bot, my curiosity in it was piqued because uses good 'ol fifo sorta like ii does.
deedbot: Invoiced billymg 0.0055 << rk256 subscription, 1 quarter
verisimilitude: Of course, sh is in-part popular because UNIX makes writing a good program difficult, but a piece of sh like this simple.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-18 19:59:23 asciilifeform: trinque: for me, the big wake-up re 'there is NO reasonably clean script lang atm' was when wrote
'litmus' in what ( asciilifeform naively thought was ) pure 'sh'
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-18 19:59:41 asciilifeform: ( turned out in only worx in bash , and possibly not even all vers of bash )
billymg: !!v AE66750204D61048CD7626253A3B2D74B5DF3E9BFEB1B8959A1B59793B100AE2
deedbot: billymg paid asciilifeform invoice 1
billymg: asciilifeform: awesome, tyvm
billymg: asciilifeform: none i can think of, my old pizarro unit was fine so as long as this one is roughly the same that's all i need
billymg: asciilifeform: perfect, sounds good
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 22:17:44 dpb: asciilifeform, terribly sorry, I am an idiot, i shutdown my rockchip by accident
billymg: asciilifeform: excellent, works for me
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-18 19:59:23 asciilifeform: trinque: for me, the big wake-up re 'there is NO reasonably clean script lang atm' was when wrote
'litmus' in what ( asciilifeform naively thought was ) pure 'sh'
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: what about a Scheme clone written in idiomatic CISC?
gregorynyssa: I mean, written in a non-RISC assembly-language, in an ineficient style favoring legibility.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-18 19:55:54 asciilifeform: trinque: since you mentioned script langs: considering, after ffa, to attempt a 'dethompsonizing' simple gc-less scheme
in asm, in style of 'M' as a scripting lang. can't speak for erryone, but i've wanted a <32kB scripting lang that 'compiles with bare hands' for many yrs.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-18 19:58:01 asciilifeform: historically it's been attempted before, but all the examples i know of made fundamental mistake (attempted to implement the reader in the proggy, rather than in the interp. bytecode. if you do the latter, whole thing is 100x simpler)
gregorynyssa: fascinating. so how would memory-management be performed? do you manually call "free?"
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-18 19:58:01 asciilifeform: historically it's been attempted before, but all the examples i know of made fundamental mistake (attempted to implement the reader in the proggy, rather than in the interp. bytecode. if you do the latter, whole thing is 100x simpler)
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: haven't studied M yet. will do so.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: I remember SECD from Kogge's book. had a copy back in college. didn't take it with me to China.
gregorynyssa: to my understanding, Linux is developed and distributed under the assumptions: (1) all programs compiled with GCC, (2) all programs must include GCC's "libc." forgoing "libc" simply isn't considered.
gregorynyssa: doesn't "libc" just access the syscall(2) through inline assembly? why not do the same in your own code?
gregorynyssa: "libc" contains failed abstractions such as "errno." I have come to conclude that its very presence is a mistake.
gregorynyssa: one minor problem here is that Linux doesn't want programmers interacting at the ABI level. they want GNU to always be the intermediary between the programmer and the system. even the use of assemblers besides GNU's is, in theory, frowned upon.
gregorynyssa: I suspect this was the motive behind the sabotaging of static linking which you mentioned earlier, and which I had also noticed myself.
gregorynyssa: so long as we are clear that the current ABI stability is de facto, not de jure.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: no argument there. breaking ABI would, in practice, lead to technical issues for some fraction of Ubuntu users, a PR loss which the Linux community cannot afford.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-08 15:02:45 asciilifeform: there in fact is commercial soft for linux, that is normally distributed as static (or quasi-static, when glibc victims) binaries.
verisimilitude: I agree regarding the Lisp system, asciilifeform. I can't promise if or when I'll have anything, but I was giving thought to how to write my planned Lisp system in Ada, and thought about the garbage collector. In Ada, the obvious method would be to have a generic package, but how would that work well? The obvious solution was to write the garbe collector in Lisp, having the Ada expose what's necessary, and nothing else.
verisimilitude: In the name of stability, the Ada could expose hardcoded interfaces which the Lisp system will never generate by itself, and they could then be uninterned once the necessary procedures have references to them.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: oh, I am well aware of that last fact. gave a tech-talk in Beijing called "The Open Ecosystem and Its Enemies" comparing the Linux and Windows mentalities.
gregorynyssa: among other things, the "open sores" culture leads to proliferation of "implementation definedness" rather than attention to formats and protocols.
verisimilitude: ``Oh, I don't implement this just correctly, but just send the wrong codes, for backwards compatibility. WTF, you can't just violate POSIX like that, help me Dennis Ritchie!''
gregorynyssa: shinohai: as it happens, archive.is doesn't work on my Android phone, only in my desktop Firefox.
gregorynyssa: verisimilitude: indeed. I think Poettering got one thing correct, and that was to write programs targeting Linux itself, rather than keeping up the half-hearted POSIX charade.
gregorynyssa: or did you mean the opposite? haha.. either way, POSIX is a leaky abstraction.
trinque: if he didn't immediately light on fire the shitpile of portability scripts/proggies, so what
verisimilitude: Xterm implements the real standards incorrectly, and then the retards behind st and other emulators blindly follow it, and it will never be corrected.
verisimilitude: I wouldn't have to deal with it at all, but dealing with X11 ``solves these problems by replacing them with a much larger and costlier set of problems.''
gregorynyssa: verisimilitude: is terminal control even part of POSIX, strictly speaking?
gregorynyssa: the specification for terminal control is console_codes(4)
gregorynyssa: which I think is Linux's own mandate, not from the POSIX document.
verisimilitude: The cretins implement real standards incorrectly, but treat POSIX as gospel.
gregorynyssa: verisimilitude: right, I see what you mean now.
gregorynyssa: no system follows POSIX perfectly. it is like ICCCM.
verisimilitude: This is a nicety of Bitcoin, by my naive understanding, because ``the network doesn't care about your malformed transactions''.
gregorynyssa: starting from the mid-to-late eighties, C went through a period of optimization-frenzy, resuting in the explosion of undefined behaviors. that was not at all how Thompson and Ritchie originally conceived of the language.
verisimilitude: They were what I deem ``intelligent idiots'', gregorynyssa. They may have been physicists, but that doesn't mean they'd any place designing a computer system.
verisimilitude: Oh, how unexpected, but disappointing all the same, asciilifeform.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: that is true. but the aliasing mess came later.
verisimilitude: I was discussing with another how being P2P, more than the blockchain, is the good quality for a protocol. That is, so long as A can communicate with B to their satisfactions, it's fine.
verisimilitude: So if B wants to only accept strict messages, and A really wants to send that message, A will conform.
trinque: asciilifeform: aha, and the portability gargle appears to come directly from that "day job" involving whichever abominable commercial unix
gregorynyssa: as Dennis Ritchie wrote to UNIX-HATERS: "Yet your prison without coherent design continues to imprison you. How can this be, if there are no strong places?"
gregorynyssa: "The rational prisoner exploits the weak places, creates order from chaos: instead, collectives like the FSF vindicate their jailers by building cells almost compatible with the existing ones, albeit with more features."
verisimilitude: GNU was rightfully hostile towards implementation concerns, but not nearly so hostile towards the poor design.
verisimilitude: Still, I think it's nice the FSF exists. I don't see it as a case of ``having a partial solution is actually worse than none''.
verisimilitude: There have been made safes which eluded thieves for decades. It's not inconceivable such a machine could be brought into existenc, at which point having GNU would be better than not.
verisimilitude: I use the AGPLv3 for most of my work, which does instate such a legal barrier. It can't be helped that a Finnish fool took some of the wind out from under GNU.
verisimilitude: ``Programmers today are proud of overcoming the adversity of creating a program from scratch using nothing more than a text editor, they relish the difficulty, and curse and condemn anyone who would suggest that we need engineering platforms that do 99% of the work for them.''
verisimilitude: I want to program without text, and replace what passes for text anyway, and
my MMC is a tool towards this goal that can get a smile from me. It's an ideal for machine code, where I need never type mnemonics to be fed to a batch-tool and other such nonsense.
shinohai: nothing besides vwap, got it logging and testing to see how long it will remain online.
btcinfobot: The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 11729.14 USD
verisimilitude: I want to program giving instructions to the machine, not writing text to be fed to the machine and translated to instructions, asciilifeform. Unlike an assembler, my MMC asks questions upon pressing keys, and all I do to write instructions is answer them in-turn, to get detailed descriptions of them; contrast this with writing mnemonics in a character file for an assembler.
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-07-07 ascii_field: my patience for 'help the mouse find the cheese' ran out when i was four
btcinfobot: The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 11741.57 USD
trinque: the fiat interfaces are starting to get entertaining again.
trinque wonders which one's going to get rolled over first during the next bubble
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-08 16:37:14 asciilifeform: for that matter, asciilifeform had significantly more pleasant experience in computing in 1990s, on msdos, than on current-day 'opens'.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-08 16:42:57 asciilifeform: the 1 thing rms did that there can be 0 forgiveness for, is his ~deliberate~ choice to cultivate coad gnarl as 'theft defense' mechanism for e.g. gcc.
gregorynyssa: one of the catalysts for my disillusionment was when I decided (as a college student) to exhaustively read all the available documentation for GNU Emacs, front-to-back (thousands of pages) to better understand this platform which I was using every day. unlike many systems Emacs does reward learning... up to a point...
gregorynyssa: I stopped using Emacs after that. played for a while with the various broken CL attempts to reimplement Emacs: Climacs. Hemlock. etc. now I just edit code using Ed, MicroEMACS, or some Windows editor.
verisimilitude: The proper way is to read the documentation, once wanting to actually use the features described.
gregorynyssa: verisimilitude: the data-model of Emacs gets uglier the more you study it, not unlike Git.
verisimilitude: Sure, but I'm perfectly willing to use Emacs for until I replace parts of it. I considered writing my MMC as an Emacs mode, but wanted more control. I could use Emacs for machine code programming, but never will, because I've my own dedicated tool now.
gregorynyssa: this seems to be a question of mere "usability" versus "instrumentability."
verisimilitude: To see a demonstration, there's a video in that linked article, asciilifeform; I'd re-record it, but I don't yet know of a tool to allow me to display key presses on screen well.
gregorynyssa: GNU software is barely usable; Emacs is probably the best of the lot. but my demands had risen by then to the higher goal of "instrumentability."
gregorynyssa: on a side note, the Emacs Lisp book had some passages which were truly silly and incoherent.
gregorynyssa: Section 2.2: "A name and the object or entity to which the name refers are different from each other. You are not your name. You are a person to whom others refer by name. If you ask to speak to George and someone hands you a card with the letters ‘G’, ‘e’, ‘o’, ‘r’, ‘g’, and ‘e’ written on it, you might be amused, but you would not be satisfied. You do not want to speak to the name, but to the person to whom the name
verisimilitude: I prefer documentation which is ``playful'' over ``professional''.
gregorynyssa: "The drums or tapes that held a file and the central processing unit were pieces of equipment that were very different from each other, working at their own speeds, in spurts. The buffer made it possible for them to work together effectively. Eventually, the buffer grew from being an intermediary, a temporary holding place, to being the place where work is done."
gregorynyssa: "This transformation is rather like that of a small seaport that grew into a great city: once it was merely the place where cargo was warehoused temporarily before being loaded onto ships; then it became a business and cultural center in its own right."
verisimilitude: I'm truly not seeing the issue here, gregorynyssa. If wanting to read documentation devoid of any humanity, why not visit Github's official documentation?
verisimilitude: I'm sure any humanity left there is currently waiting to be purged.
gregorynyssa: these people had higher IQ than today's GitHub crowd, but there is a certain absent-mindedness and flippancy which underlies their work. where prose was concerned it was amusing, but as it happened, I started noticing this effect in their codebases as well.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-08 23:06:10 gregorynyssa: one of the catalysts for my disillusionment was when I decided (as a college student) to exhaustively read all the available documentation for GNU Emacs, front-to-back (thousands of pages) to better understand this platform which I was using every day. unlike many systems Emacs does reward learning... up to a point...
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-08 23:14:39 gregorynyssa: verisimilitude: the data-model of Emacs gets uglier the more you study it, not unlike Git.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-08 23:15:28 verisimilitude: Sure, but I'm perfectly willing to use Emacs for until I replace parts of it. I considered writing my MMC as an Emacs mode, but wanted more control. I could use Emacs for machine code programming, but never will, because I've my own dedicated tool now.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-08 23:16:48 verisimilitude: To see a demonstration, there's a video in that linked article, asciilifeform; I'd re-record it, but I don't yet know of a tool to allow me to display key presses on screen well.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-08 23:17:18 verisimilitude: I don't regard GNU as ``great'', merely ``better''.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-08 23:22:45 verisimilitude: I'm sure any humanity left there is currently waiting to be purged.