Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-01-03 | 2022-01-05 →
d4: then you should take a look at this nice FAQ about plotting into terminal and this thread about plotting internals of your programs. TL;DR: some terminals can render svg; dumping program state and serializing to
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-31 03:21:37 verisimilitude: I'll be investigating this soon.
d4: dot (graphviz) is useful.
cgra: << in recent eclipse versions (the java-land behemoth, likely much like intellij idea and netbeans etc) a "live semantic edit" is a thing (no idea how generic tho), as is the usual code-completion. also would guess link navigation is not a
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-07-03 19:26:00 asciilifeform: i.e. could write the proggy, but turned out 100% impossible to make the editor behave as specified, with e.g. links being clickable ~while text box is editable~ (no modality liquishit pleez) , with completor/selector box, etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-05 14:43:54 signpost: I also use the shit out of intellij on dumpster-puters.
cgra: problem, given jumping to function and variable declarations is another eclipse standard item
cgra: << though, the handful of times i dipped my toe in the java swing gui poop pond, this sounds like it should induce similar reaction (not 100% sure though, whether a swing creation or smth else)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-03 18:10:29 asciilifeform: thinks about mcclim, gets just shorta physically ill recalling the ui kit
cgra: asciilifeform: find it perhaps worth a deeper dig?
cgra: the eclipse youtube links i dug are some random items i didn't even listen to. prolly just fughetabout the whatever rest in them, except for the visual action on exact linked video position
cgra: one q that comes to my mind is how may such eclipse contraptions be mixed with rich text and graphics. though did asciilifeform find a bare plaintext item worth existing?
asciilifeform: cgra: asciilifeform did hard time in a java salt mine, has used both eclipse and intellij, but doesn't see what they have to do with the described item. coad completion per se worx even in my emacs (via 'auto-complete' and 'popup').
asciilifeform: cgra: that aint the hard part. the hard (and seemingly impossible part) is permitting ~clickable~ links in edit box ~while it is editable~, none of the existing gui kits for x11 seem to support it.
asciilifeform: concretely, ~directly left-clickable~
asciilifeform: no modality, no rightclickism
asciilifeform: neither wx, nor qt, nor gtk, permit any such thing, and asciilifeform's many attempts to kludge it into existence led nowhere.
asciilifeform: it ~may~ be implementable in a proggy which contains a complete font rendering stack of its own (e.g. emacs) but asciilifeform specifically does not want it in emacs or in www browser
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-07-03 19:27:09 asciilifeform: apparently such proggy can only be written if write 100% of graphics stack (incl. font renderer) from 0. as in e.g. emacs (before anyone asks, i ~specifically~ did not and still do not want this kinda thing as elisp progggy -- it'll 100% guaranteed choke on 200MB+ of indexable db.. )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-03 18:46:57 asciilifeform: also ftr NOT interested in any 'solution' which involves a www browser or sawed-off components thereof, in any way.
billymg: asciilifeform: i've been following your description of this UI, if left clicking the word follows the link that would mean the default left click behavior (move text cursor to pointer location) wouldn't work, correct?
asciilifeform: billymg: correct, to navigate into a link would use kbd
asciilifeform: billymg: clicking anywhere else oughta have the default behaviour tho
billymg: ah, so left click doesn't follow the link, but selects it, then additional keypress to follow?
asciilifeform: specifically not what i want, aha
billymg: then i misunderstood "to navigate into a link"
asciilifeform: it disrupts flow.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-03 22:28:06 asciilifeform: signpost: errybody can stand up a db. the described item is imho the Right Thing in re: a db that can be operated in 'flow state' with minimal friction.
asciilifeform: billymg: 'navigate into a link' i.e. into its text
billymg: ah, like move cursor into the word
billymg would be interested to see napkin sketches if asciilifeform were to upload them to his blog
asciilifeform: billymg: yest.'s thrd is the most detailed description asciilifeform posted to date; imho it is entirely complete
billymg: how do you feel about modifier key for the link follow behavior?
asciilifeform: absolutely no go
asciilifeform: to date this was the reaction of erryone asciilifeform described the thing to , in meatspace. 'what do you mean, you want a machine screw? have this here wood screw'
billymg: why not with a modifier key? your right hand has already moved to the mouse to target the link, your left hand is still on the keyboard, no?
asciilifeform: disrupts flow.
asciilifeform: whole thing is concretely, specifically about ~not doing that~
billymg: doesn't moving hand to the mouse disrupt flow? when reading the description yesterday i sort of imagined this as some kbd only UI
asciilifeform: billymg: nope.
asciilifeform: when holding mouse, the widget oughta behave precisely like a traditional www browser.
billymg: i see
asciilifeform: where you dun have to press any keys to click a link
billymg: right, simply left click
asciilifeform: correct.
billymg: or middle click if you want "open in new tab"
asciilifeform implemented various 'halfway' kludges as described above, found 0 of them usable
billymg: ok, so is the reason for "no right clickism" so that it mimics the browser, and so that your brain doesn't have to remap finger movements when moving between this and a browser?
asciilifeform: correct
billymg: like cgra pointed out, most IDEs do some form of modifier + click to navigate to e.g. function defintion
asciilifeform: i.e. they're modal
billymg: ok, so left click simply follows the link (if the word is a link), otherwise inserts cursor at location
asciilifeform: correct
asciilifeform: (tho not merely word, but entire string b/w [ ] incl. whitespace, as if in browser)
billymg: and if you want the cursor in a link you gotta move it there with kbd. how about modifier to insert cursor, as an added nicety? e.g. alt-left-click inserts cursor in linked word, rather than following?
asciilifeform: no objection to a modifier which ~inhibits~ link activation
asciilifeform: prolly would be handy
billymg: and you would use this as a standalone app?
asciilifeform: the other tricky aspect is for the 'syntax highlighting' to work in real time (i.e. after ~any~ key press, the linkism content of the edit box ~must~ be correct), but this part grudgingly worked in qt after heavy massage
asciilifeform: billymg: correct, standalone compiled proggy
billymg: standalone except for the db, which as you mentioned, could be e.g. postgers?
billymg: postgres*
asciilifeform: db ideally pluggable: postgres, sqlite, etc. per user preference
asciilifeform: that there's the easy part
billymg: i found this yesterday because i was curious what my preferred editor was using under the hood:
billymg: apparently they wrote their own UI framework
asciilifeform: the completer box oughta work w/out lag even if 1e7+ node titles; and work when text entered from ~inside~ string, not merely start of it; this i expect requires an adult db
asciilifeform: billymg: correct, just as emacs has own renderer
asciilifeform: 'sublime' as i understand is sumthing like a commercial emacs w/ python in place of elisp
billymg: curious why no emacsisms? if someone were to create, in terms of spec, ideal version of this UI in emacs, why not use?
asciilifeform: cuz it will lag on GB+ db. even my current emacs lags on 1e3+ completer entries
asciilifeform: elisp is dog slow
asciilifeform: mine even lags on MB+ text buffers.
billymg: i wonder if sublime text would also have this problem
asciilifeform: and if w/ highlighting, mishighlights all the time
billymg: because one thought was of course a sublime text plugin
asciilifeform: billymg: nfi, i've not used sublime at length (at instigation of various folx, tried it, found the smooth scrolling neat circus trick, but quickly barfed from being unable to use own collection of elispisms)
asciilifeform: billymg: not very interested in implementing an essential util on closed lulware
billymg: ok, right, but you said you'd use this personal DB app as a standalone app
billymg: that's fair
billymg: re: closed source
asciilifeform: needs to be standalone, and compiled
asciilifeform: ideally also to work on >1 os, but this part not vital, would be happy to use one bound to x11
asciilifeform: billymg: it is asciilifeform's current understanding that the thing cannot be made at all w/out implementing a complete text renderer. which has only been done to date a few times, and is easily 1e4 man hours, if you're aiming to end up with sumthing that doesn't make user choke on own vomit.
billymg: yeah, that's sort of the conclusion i came to, you'd have to do what the ST folks did and write their own UI engine
billymg: your own*
asciilifeform: e.g. demands scalable font renderer
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-07-03 19:59:31 asciilifeform: ( using bitmap font also quickly ruled out, asciilifeform regularly inhabits screens w/ at least 6 variant pixel densities )
asciilifeform: this is wai the proggy dun exist, billymg
asciilifeform: asciilifeform does not have the 1e4+ hrs.
asciilifeform: it's a 'sane os - complete' problem.
asciilifeform: and a testament to the obstructive idiocy of not only gui designers to date, but whole 'c machine' paradigm where it is impossible to meaningfully modify behaviour of existing lib
asciilifeform: (why the fuck can't make gtk's text box have clickable links while editable? 'because reasons')
cgra: asciilifeform: clicking a link, to start editing it's text, would that be a right-click in your prog?
cgra: i rushed to ask q, found answer when read further
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-04 09:00:38 asciilifeform: no objection to a modifier which ~inhibits~ link activation
cgra: asciilifeform: in your flow, how do you backtrack link click trail?
asciilifeform: cgra: similarly to www browsers -- alt-arrows or 'back button'
asciilifeform: the ui resembles www browser, with the exception of the text being editable (as described)
asciilifeform: where www browser has url bar, there's a noad title bar, where may select (with completionism similarly to what described earlier) from all nodes in db.
asciilifeform: a toggleable sidebar shows backlinks of current node (i.e. list of all nodes which link to same atm)
asciilifeform: all clickable
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $47057.74
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 14 nodes...
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717173
watchglass: : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717173 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=717173
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.021s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=717173
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717173
watchglass: : Alive: (0.050s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=717173 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.092s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717173 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.204s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717173
watchglass: : Alive: (0.244s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717173
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.253s) V=88888 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717173
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.310s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=716830
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.355s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717001
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.595s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717173
watchglass: : Alive: (0.423s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=717173
asciilifeform: << wondering whether any of these xterm replacements will actually build on dulap-gentoo. anybody tried ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-04 04:44:14 d4: then you should take a look at this nice FAQ about plotting into terminal and this thread about plotting internals of your programs. TL;DR: some terminals can render svg; dumping program state and serializing to
asciilifeform: ( it aint necessary for asciilifeform's req. but seems useful imho )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-27 13:08:55 asciilifeform: in search of a decent text-driven diagram shitter, if not finds one may use latex
asciilifeform to this day uses plain old 'xterm', config'd to remove scroll bars and all other mouse knobs
asciilifeform: concretely, xterm -fg green -bg black -fn "-b&h-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-normal-sans-28-*-*-*-*-*-iso8859-1"
asciilifeform has it bound to a key in 'ratpoison', typically has coupla dozen going at a given time
asciilifeform: billymg: yer pestlogger seems to be down
billymg: god dammit
billymg: restarted
asciilifeform: ty billymg
asciilifeform: to round off prev.thread -- asciilifeform attempted at one time to bolt x11ism support to 'tinyscheme' to try to bake this. ended up barfing, found ~impossible to make clean, antialiased, flicker-free anyffin at all
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-04 08:48:53 asciilifeform: it ~may~ be implementable in a proggy which contains a complete font rendering stack of its own (e.g. emacs) but asciilifeform specifically does not want it in emacs or in www browser
asciilifeform: emacs took ~halfcentury and STILL TO THIS DAY sluggish (when syntaxhighlighting) and emits artifacts
asciilifeform: tried even opengl libs, found entirely impossible to use for clean text rendering (it aint designed for it, smudges)
asciilifeform: the amt of complexity involved even in replicating the pile of shit that is emacs renderer is gargantuan.
asciilifeform would dearly luvv to hear even half-baked thoughts re possible solutions to this puzzler, if any reader happens to have such.
asciilifeform: currently no closer to a solution than in 2007.
cgra: asciilifeform: just found out that, while eclipse has by default this 'press ctrl and hovering mouse over interesting code bits turns them into hyperlinks', it also allows for the same work ~without any modifier key~
cgra: from settings dialog: ""On demand hyperlinks are shown when moving the mouse in the editor while the specified modifier is pressed. The hyperlinks appear on mouse move when no modifier is specified.""
cgra: (tried it out, verified a thing)
asciilifeform: cgra: hm, what means 'appear on mouse move' ?
cgra: asciilifeform: move mouse on the interesting bit and it turns into a hyperlink under the mouse. you can now click the link if you like
asciilifeform: but when mouse not moving, text is default colour?
cgra: asciilifeform: well, the link disappears only after mouse leaves the hotspot
asciilifeform: nogood obv
cgra: because not always link?
asciilifeform: (not that asciilifeform would want to use a GB of java liquishit, at any rate, for same reason as not want emacs or hacked www browser)
asciilifeform: cgra: correct
asciilifeform: the thing needs to resemble www browser exactly (with the difference that the text is editable in realtime)
asciilifeform: link gotta appear as soon as a closing ']' appears in the editor
cgra: asciilifeform: right. was thinking that maybe this hints it being doable -- doesn't prove though.
asciilifeform: (and 'unlinkify' immed. if the latter is removed)
asciilifeform: cgra: it's of course doable if one writes an entire graphics stack (as in emacs, eclipse, sublime, etc)
asciilifeform: dun appear to be doable using any existing one tho
cgra: asciilifeform: you believe what scrap lies underneath eclipse, belongs necessarily to this group?
asciilifeform: well java has own text renderer thing
asciilifeform: ( 'swt' )
cgra: so while this looks awfully lot close to what you're looking for, a known roadblock will eventually surface?
asciilifeform: iirc in linux uses gtk for the viewport
asciilifeform: cgra: well in the case of eclipse, the block is java
asciilifeform: i aint using java. for anyffin.
cgra: asciilifeform: ah ok. that seals the deal
cgra: asciilifeform: are you meanwhile using a modifier-click variant or "nothing"?
asciilifeform: uninterested in that for the same reason i dun want the thing as a vs plugin or pile of js liquishit in chrome
asciilifeform: cgra: 'nothing'
asciilifeform: (piles of txt files)
cgra: how do you jump between?
asciilifeform: manually.
asciilifeform: pile o' txt files, grep, emacs.
cgra: modifier-click variant wouldn't beat that?
asciilifeform: 'just-short' frustrates asciilifeform considerably moar than 'nothing', is how his head is structured.
asciilifeform: the other thing is that implementing the mechanically-complicated completer behaviour on an existing gui kit where cannot have the 'final solution' is a massive unrecoverable cost
asciilifeform: ( and is anuther thing that would take epic effort to bake in 'raw pixels' )
asciilifeform: is sorta rather like how i'd rather sit on a wooden crate than a plush chair with a nail permanently affixed to the arse pad
asciilifeform: 'but you can get used to it, learn to sit down so nail goes in arsehole cleanly' 'nothx'
cgra: asciilifeform: if modifier-click variant sufficed, would the heavy-weight capable completer still similarly remain an obstacle?
asciilifeform: cgra: well as i just said, it'd be a pile of e.g. qt coad that doesn't in any way help when rewriting to 'raw pixels'
asciilifeform: and at any rate it dun suffice. asciilifeform not interested in nail chair.
cgra: ah you mean the temporary solution needs a full rewrite anyway, when a complete pill is found
asciilifeform: cgra: aha. any gui kit you can make a half-solution on (and asciilifeform is satisfied that he tried all the non-java/mswin/mac ones) perma-binds you to ~that~ kit
cgra: right
asciilifeform: the 1 i got furthest with, was qt, with a modified 'qtextedit'. but is dog-slow, flickers, misreads clicks, mishighlights, buggy as all hell
asciilifeform: the depth of the hell involved in writing a half-usable text editor at all in 'raw pixels' is unfathomable unless you've been to it. even support for clipboard (w/out which such a thing is worse than useless) is nontrivial
asciilifeform: not even to mention scrolling etc
asciilifeform: and the 'you can edit XOR click links' idiocy seems firmly 'glued in with broken glass' into existing ones
asciilifeform: (speakin of qt in particular -- is a very special hell, where various default behaviours cannot be fully overridden and results in flicker and corruption. e.g. 'qtextedit' allows links because internally represented as html, and cut/paste gives you html soup, and then you need to strip it and rerender, whole thing flickers)
asciilifeform: 'is that a real program, or is that something somebody wrote?'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: phunphakt: asciilifeform's entire www, and thesis thereof, came outta frustration with specifically this quest.
asciilifeform: 'you can buy 'supercomputer' but you can't have a text editor with basic sane behaviour w/out redoing 1e5 man-years of crud'
asciilifeform: even such a basic thing as a scalable font renderer afaik has only been written ~once~ (not counting ms or other closed shitware)
asciilifeform: !!key jonsykkel
whaack: !e height
trbexplorer: whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-balance, view-raw-block, view-block, view-height, view-merkle-root, view-txn, view-utxos, view-raw-txn, verify-block, push
whaack: !e view-height
trbexplorer: block_height: 717226
asciilifeform: !e view-balance 1DRWnmPWZtUjyGhR9SfmpXgHREDMQxbBRd
trbexplorer: block_height: 717226
trbexplorer: satoshis: 3407754558
trbexplorer: bitcoin: 34.07754558
asciilifeform: neato, whaack !
asciilifeform intends to stand up a pestlogger on dulap as soon as we have a pestron w/ 'getdata'. until then the log is gonna end up fulla holes and frustrating.
asciilifeform: (tho billymg's is useful; but often enuff pest convs fall through on acct of bot hiccup)
asciilifeform: and imho loggers oughta peer with as many folx on pestnet as can be mustered, for max robustness
asciilifeform: and -- the moar loggers on a pestnet, the merrier, obv.
asciilifeform: that is, for a 'public' pestnet. can picture use cases for other kinds, but no personal plans to operate such
asciilifeform of the '3 can keep a seekrit if 2 are dead' school of thought
whaack: asciilifeform: ty!
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