Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-05-23 | 2021-05-25 → ↓
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037428 << this is perhaps the best thing about CL, that all who would change it are dead or retired.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 06:00:20 gregorynyssa: (1) the rules of the language are constantly being updated by the vendor;
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 06:01:23 gregorynyssa: (2) programs written in the language contain opaque run-time structures.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 06:18:29 gregorynyssa: Tcl has numerous problems, one of which is the lack of a dynamic FFI (allowing the language to swallow DLLs at runtime).
trinque: consider that the rampant use of C extensions in e.g. python, ruby, make for quite opaque run-time structures indeed
trinque: perhaps better OS-level coordination mechanisms are instead called for, rather than sharing needles with other processes
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037433 << to my eye uplevel/upvar are kluges less elegant than a proper macro system, which allows more language extension without stack fiddling
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 06:12:34 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037410 << the language is homoiconic. it has strong support for DSLs. it unifies function-definition syntax and configuration-file syntax. it unifies call-by-value and call-by-name through "upvar." it has (limited) support for continuations. it was specifically built to solve last-mile problems (functions requiring intensive computation
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037436 << indeed this, but also language can limit or bias what's expressed.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 06:14:10 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037415 << granted, just because one can write obfuscated code doesn't mean that he should.
whaack: Verisimilitude: Hey your comment from months ago got caught in my spam trap, it has been released and responded to
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-22 20:07:13 Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, any ETA for phuctor's return ?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037405 << try as i might, never was able to grasp the appeal of tcl/tk. it has imho the flavour of a 'puzzle-lang' take on bash.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-22 21:21:33 gregorynyssa: the cleverness of Tcl did not extend to Tk.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 00:27:45 whaack: block where high-S becomes unmineable be the start of the fork, which by pete's article would be block # 363,731 ?
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-07-03 cazalla: apparently network forked or some business
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 05:57:30 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037408 << so-called "web" languages have been surprisingly effective with regard to the implementation of command-line utilities, this being no accident.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 14:53:05 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: upstack -- imho it is worth understanding why well-designed, simple, and functional systems remain obscure, while perl/cpp/microshit 'wins'. if more sane folx understood the basics of the underlying civilizational decay which powers this process, would die of cirrosis less often and overall happier imho
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 06:01:23 gregorynyssa: (2) programs written in the language contain opaque run-time structures.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037431 << this means a) NO os interface or ffi in any form whatsoever (a la e.g. peh) or b) drink the spittoon of specifying entire machine. tertium non datur.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 06:03:00 gregorynyssa: the run-time structures underlying the language must be treated as part of the grammar.
whaack: asciilifeform: Will do. To figure out which chain 'won' I figure I have to (1) Figure out what 'voting' policy the BIP squad determined to trigger the new rule enforcement (2) Calculate retroactively which would be the first block that should enforce the rule (i.e. find out the first 1000 blocks where 750 of those blocks broadcasted version 3, or something of this sort), then check to see if any
whaack: signature in block 1001 used a high-S value
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037433 << if i wanted to directly slurp the stack, i'd write in asm.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 06:12:34 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037410 << the language is homoiconic. it has strong support for DSLs. it unifies function-definition syntax and configuration-file syntax. it unifies call-by-value and call-by-name through "upvar." it has (limited) support for continuations. it was specifically built to solve last-mile problems (functions requiring intensive computation
asciilifeform: whaack: didja write a thing that goes by block and shows high-S sigs ?
whaack: asciilifeform: No, I'm interested in doing so, if only to gain a better understanding of how bitcoin sigs work under the hood.
asciilifeform: whaack: a++. looking forward to reading.
asciilifeform interested in related q's also, e.g. when did 'anyone-can-spend' outputs begin to appear en masse; how many unspent such are there atm; and various.
trinque: ah indeed, this thing as a chronology of the weakening of the protocol would be outstanding.
asciilifeform: the answers are 'already on everyone's hdd' -- simply needs 'pretty-printing', lol
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037440 << reminds me of the czech tale where the princess asks about a suitor : 'is he young?' 'nope, he's old' 'is he at least kind?' 'no, he's the meanest old man alive' 'old and mean! ain't he the ideal groom!'
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-23 06:19:59 gregorynyssa: another is the reliance upon opaque optimizations to allow lists to be efficiently operated upon.
asciilifeform: wtf is supposed to be appealing about tcl..? i still dungetit.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 10:20:12 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037428 << this is perhaps the best thing about CL, that all who would change it are dead or retired.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037453 << while you're stuck on unix, will have opaque turds in the lang. e.g..
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 10:21:16 trinque: consider that the rampant use of C extensions in e.g. python, ruby, make for quite opaque run-time structures indeed
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037455 << stack munging is even worse, imho, than unhygienic macros. it makes for utterly undebuggable proggy, in the general case.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 10:24:56 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037433 << to my eye uplevel/upvar are kluges less elegant than a proper macro system, which allows more language extension without stack fiddling
verisimilitude: I've forgotten the name of the website, whaack.
whaack: verisimilitude: ztkfg.com
verisimilitude: Well, I'm glad it didn't just fall into oblivion after all.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037450 << FWIW I meant the run-time structures of the interpreter itself. also, Tcl certainly has compile-time FFI, but it lacks dynamic FFI, something which SBCL incidentally is fairly good at.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037462 << exactly: it tried to unify shell-scripting, configuration-file formats, and an ALGOL-like application-language.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 12:42:58 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037405 << try as i might, never was able to grasp the appeal of tcl/tk. it has imho the flavour of a 'puzzle-lang' take on bash.
trinque: gregorynyssa: it's these top-down attempts at integration of "accidental" (in the sense meaning opposite of essential) items which produces more of the same.
trinque: consider the difference in output when proceeding outward along simplest possible solutions
trinque: "because there is make (and implicity 'who am I to change it?') therefore I will write automake"
trinque: *implicitly
trinque: accepting that someone else owns "the world" renders one helpless but to stack kluges.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-17#1012465 << following asciilifeform's links, I found this to be quite eye-opening.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-17 12:50:25 asciilifeform: quite possibly is the real reason they wrapped up 'nam
gregorynyssa: IIRC correctly, more than a thousand officers died from fragging, yet the notion that the fragging had an effect on policy
gregorynyssa: is something which people would rather not think about
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: folx whose paycheque, propotion, pension, all depend on not-thinking-about-$subj -- surprise, lol, will show as few symptoms of thinking about $subj as they are able.
asciilifeform: *promotion
trinque: I suspect in these cases the officers' hindbrains get the message, thought about or not.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform I don't have any basis to object
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ty. will roll into next ver. then.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lemme know if you'd rather have it point to your own mirror somewhere, instead of mine.
asciilifeform: ( this ftr was the q )
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-22 18:31:23 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lemme know if you have any objections to this, but i'm thinking of auto-transforming qntra links to point to my mirror the way i do with btcbase linx.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-16#1026290 << I am interested in hearing your thoughts on a certain subj... do you think this evil "Rockefeller" class
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 15:04:32 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: at the risk of oversimplification -- one school is that they exist so that rockefeller can buy 15 yachts instead of 1 while you work in either case 25 years of 14hour days and then die.
gregorynyssa: had a hand in the rise of anti-Nerd bullying in the 60s/70s?
gregorynyssa: I mean, through top-down propaganda and/or social engineering.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: not sure i understand the subj of the q
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: I have long been interested in the question of why some children in America are labelled as Nerds and subject to hostility.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'odd' kid is always and in all times & places subject to pushing, this is how primate hindbrain 'expels defectives'. in '80s various usg busybodies proclaimed it 'problem'. in '90s fed 'victims' various dope, some 'went postal', proclaimed 'evidence there's problem', rinse & repeat, used to present day to justify totalitarian interventions against children in usa.
gregorynyssa: my own research has yielded some answers, but I am interested in hearing whether your "Class Realist" worldview provides any additional answers.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: it's a manufactured usg.problem.
gregorynyssa: "odd kid is always subject to pushing" << yes, but the definition of odd has mutated owing to Secularization, and, if one believes eg. Quigley and Shlain, the increase in sensitivity of humans (Americans) to nonverbal communication which occurred during 20th century.
gregorynyssa: "in 90s fed victims various dope" << this was a huge problem IMO, and might be looked upoon by future generations of history as a major bioethics-violation.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037525 << any particular reason that they did this, aside from the notion that all bureaucracies inherently create problems?
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 16:11:21 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: it's a manufactured usg.problem.
gregorynyssa: I had to grow up under parents with strong anti-Nerd views, even though my father was himself a PhD.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037454 << I found it interesting how the old UNIX versions did not have sockets, something which seems so fundamental in retrospect.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 10:22:25 trinque: perhaps better OS-level coordination mechanisms are instead called for, rather than sharing needles with other processes
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037523 I don't see an inherent issue with totalitarianism in all cases. Unfortunately, the USG is more concerned with harming proper families than, say, homosexuals abusing children, or mothers forcing their sons to act like girls in strip clubs.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 16:10:56 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'odd' kid is always and in all times & places subject to pushing, this is how primate hindbrain 'expels defectives'. in '80s various usg busybodies proclaimed it 'problem'. in '90s fed 'victims' various dope, some 'went postal', proclaimed 'evidence there's problem', rinse & repeat, used to present day to justify totalitarian interventions against children in usa.
verisimilitude: Notice, however, that the US isn't even technically totalitarian; no governmental system fixes the issues of a bad population or bad leaders.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: rough 'rule of thumb' -- a regime which purports to tell you what you can and cannot put in yer mouth -- is totalitarian.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037530 I've also faced this, ``Stop using big words.'', etc..
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 16:33:20 gregorynyssa: I had to grow up under parents with strong anti-Nerd views, even though my father was himself a PhD.
verisimilitude: A government must restrict its population in some ways.
verisimilitude: ``You cannot put human flesh in yer mouth.''
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there's 2 basic ways to enforce a norm -- top-down / bottom-up.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 16:39:21 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037454 << I found it interesting how the old UNIX versions did not have sockets, something which seems so fundamental in retrospect.
verisimilitude: Yes, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: the totalitarian philosophy (yes) is that 'the natural human bottom-up norms suck, let's force new ones by royal decree and enforce with ubiquitous surveillance, snitch culture, and draconian punishments' approx.
asciilifeform: i disagree w/ this notion. not even because 'natural behaviour is pefect' but simply because 'naturam expellas furca tamen usque recurret'.
verisimilitude: Oh, democracy be so better?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'democracy' as experienced in +ad is a totalitarian masquerade mask.
shinohai: i disagree with using '' `` instead of actual quotes and wasting character space.
asciilifeform: shinohai: dun tell me yer using variable-width glyphs!
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:00:18 shinohai: i disagree with using '' `` instead of actual quotes and wasting character space.
verisimilitude: Mine admiration for authoritarianism derives purely from the idea that the better man should lead the weaker men, and not vice-versa.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: who crowns 'better' ? martians?
shinohai: gregorynyssa: i was trolling verisimilitude
verisimilitude: Ideally, some non-human, yes.
verisimilitude: In practicality, we're ruled by well-protected genetic defects.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037556 << Curtis Yarvin is actually trying to implement this.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:01:03 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: who crowns 'better' ? martians?
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: for some value of 'trying' and 'implement' , lol
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: btw he stole the plot from jp 'last exile' in that piece.
asciilifeform: (all but the ending, which i suspect he did not like..)
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: so Last Exile has an earth which is ruled by a space-colony?
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: almost exactly as pictured in his piece, aha
verisimilitude: Read this, gregorynyssa.
asciilifeform: 'for the earthlings' own good' etc
verisimilitude: For working on Urbit so long, it's surprisingly unoriginal.
asciilifeform: fella is neither first nor, betcha, last, to 'wouldn't it be a++ if humans were captured and kept as pets by benevolent martians' wank.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037567 << I thought he came up with something original, but looks like I simply lack Anime exdpertise.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:04:09 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: almost exactly as pictured in his piece, aha
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: because author is fundamentally unoriginal mind.
gregorynyssa: * expertise.
gregorynyssa: I need to go watch this.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: there's 0 originality in anything yarvin has published to date. 0.
asciilifeform: all cheap knockoff of , generally, older cheap knockoffs.
verisimilitude: Let's not pretend most humans can handle freedom, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what's that to do with it ?
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037546 << I still need to read more about the older Celtic and Icelandic civilizations which supposedly had strong self-rule.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 16:58:56 asciilifeform: i disagree w/ this notion. not even because 'natural behaviour is pefect' but simply because 'naturam expellas furca tamen usque recurret'.
verisimilitude: I refer to the Martians.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037568 << that paper by Backus is one of my favorites.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:04:16 verisimilitude: Read this, gregorynyssa.
verisimilitude: Aliens swooping in and killing every politician on Earth would only benefit it.
asciilifeform: btw if we're doing fiction, re humans and 'benevolent' martians, '3 body problem'.
verisimilitude: I meant my review, in particular.
verisimilitude: The paper is nice, yes.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: re self-rule -- j.c. scott, 'the art of not being governed'. mandatory reading on subj.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: I haven't read it yet. will do so in the near future.
asciilifeform: a more compact statement of the key idea, for impatient folx, is in orwell's 'you and the atomic bomb'.
gregorynyssa: https://orwell.ru/library/articles/ABomb/english/e_abomb << I knew about the consequences of weapon-technology from Quigley. I had not realized that Orwell already explored the same subject.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i picked up quigley and was not impressed. much dead forest, very little said.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: the man was not a concise writer, but some segments were impressive. in particular, I find chapters 74 and 75 of Tragedy and Hope to be very important to any modern cultural or sociological discussion.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: fwiw i did not make it to anywhere near 74
asciilifeform: (and i suspect that whatever it is, if you looked closely would find where he lifted it..)
verisimilitude: That was a nice read, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: aint it nice when can read a coupla kB and go from 'i have nfi why $phenomenon goes in $direction' to 'make sense like f = m*a'
verisimilitude: I felt the same way about GEB.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i didn't. it was a++ entertaining but learned 0 new.
asciilifeform: maybe is different if you get hold of it as a child..
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:15:36 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i picked up quigley and was not impressed. much dead forest, very little said.
asciilifeform assumes by default that any message which doesn't reference a line, is re the last .
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:26:12 asciilifeform: (and i suspect that whatever it is, if you looked closely would find where he lifted it..)
verisimilitude: I'm a slower typist, with my chording keyboard; the race condition hit me.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: see also.
asciilifeform: ^ summary of where the quigleys, yarvins, etc. come from.
verisimilitude: But yes, brevity is the soul of wit and all of that.
asciilifeform: mno, brevity or lack thereof, as such, has nuffin to do with it.
gregorynyssa: https://pastebin.com/raw/dkv5m35V << this is from chapter 75 of Tragedy and Hope.
asciilifeform: simply, some people simply collect crapola and stack it up. much smaller number is able to synthesise, i.e. form new idea.
asciilifeform: the 'stackers' do the bulk of the publishing in a dying culture. they always try to cut off their intellectual betters (folx able to synthesise) from whatever 'official' channels. when cultural death -- this succeeds.
asciilifeform: it's rather like how your stomach always 'tries' to digest itself, simply as a side effect of what it does. in a corpse -- succeeds.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'In the days of Horatio Alger, the marks of youthful middle-class aspiration were such obvious symbols as well-polished shoes, a necktie and suit coat, a clean-shaved face and well-cut hair, and punctuality.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037599 << that is why I try to read old books wherever possible, and for newer books eg. those regarding computing, I make every effort to get the first edition.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:30:20 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: aint it nice when can read a coupla kB and go from 'i have nfi why $phenomenon goes in $direction' to 'make sense like f = m*a'
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: why am i reading mythology presented as factual argument ?
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: and what didya get outta reading this ?
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037624 << I don't think it is mythology. observe how this transition happened within the black American community at a later date than within the white American community. look at pictures of young black men in MLK's day.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:40:56 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: why am i reading mythology presented as factual argument ?
verisimilitude: I've read plenty of good, newer books; judge each book individually.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:42:17 verisimilitude: I've read plenty of good, newer books; judge each book individually.
gregorynyssa: American Nations (2011) by Colin Woodard was surprisingly good.
verisimilitude: I've twenty-nine reviews so far, most of them also reccomendations, gregorynyssa.
gregorynyssa: but on the whole, newer books have stopped making sense to me.
verisimilitude: I misspelled ``recommendations'' I see.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: every once in a while i pick up one of these 21st c. anglo-wonders and read until the 1st howler
asciilifeform: (there is always a howler. at which pt i throw an exception)
verisimilitude: Define this term.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: comes in several varieties. i can catalogue if you like
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: a large part of the problem is that modern authors themselves are not well-read people, unlike in the past.
gregorynyssa: another problem is that a small number of incorrect models (such as: white people = Individualist; yellows = Collectivist) have come to dominate all socio-cultural discourse.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: one type is when author makes a schoolboy gaffe (simply unfactual statement), and carries merrily along building arguments on top
asciilifeform: another is when mythology presented as fact (see e.g. upstack quote)
verisimilitude: It sickens me that so-called professional journalists write English worse than anything of mine, gregorynyssa.
verisimilitude: Why call these ``howlers''; are they laughter?
asciilifeform: another is when inconvenient facts 'unhappen' (to asciilifeform most often stands out to naked eye when entire ru world ignored in anglo narrative of development of physical inventions, mathematics, etc. but equally so in e.g. yarvin's idiotic treatment of the entente's intervention in '18 )
asciilifeform: another , unfortunately increasingly met with variety of 'howler' is when author betrays that he simply is not friends with his native language, such as it is (normally malapropisms, and notice that they made it past editors etc)
verisimilitude: I despise when journalists, typically the women, see fit to add ``cutesy'' tangents to their stories.
verisimilitude: An unpleasant aspect of being surrounded by idiots is the dreadful feeling one isn't necessarily smart, merely smarter.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037645 << there was a time when the average American had better proficiency in English than the average British (since the aptitude of the latter was concentrated in its aristocracy)
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:49:35 verisimilitude: It sickens me that so-called professional journalists write English worse than anything of mine, gregorynyssa.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'm deliberately not even touching on 'smart'
asciilifeform: simply basic literacy.
asciilifeform: it is no longer the norm for folx w/ access to dead-tree publishing.
asciilifeform: in english.
verisimilitude: I blame integration, in-part.
gregorynyssa: the American educational establishment abdicated its responsbility by embracing so-called Multiculturalism. in doing so, they also betrayed the principle of "tabula rasa"
gregorynyssa: right-leaning writers have incorrectly regarded Multiculturalism as being allied with tabula rasa.
gregorynyssa: in reality, under a strict "tabula rasa" worldview, culture comes from the school.
verisimilitude: The more general issue is inhibiting the strong for the weak.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the flies on the walls of the school, by that token, oughta be 100% as cultured as the bipedal pupils, neh
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 18:00:56 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the flies on the walls of the school, by that token, oughta be 100% as cultured as the bipedal pupils, neh
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the notion that 'sentience' is a binary, is a religious belief.
asciilifeform: .. and one for which not only no evidence exists -- but plenty to the contrary.
asciilifeform: since we touched on yarvin -- in his terminology : 'HNU'.
verisimilitude: Expand that.
asciilifeform: 'the idea that humans are neurologically uniform like golden retrievers' iirc is how he stated it.
verisimilitude: It doesn't strictly matter what sentience is. There are humans, and everything else.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: herrnstein and murray expanded more than anyone could want.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: btw i've a problem with 'it doesn't strictly matter what $concept is' followed by nontrivial-assertion-about-$concept
asciilifeform: this oughta throw an eggog in yer head before it comes out
verisimilitude: I expected this response.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037665 << yes it is, and I have remained an inherent, which accounts for some of the differences in the way that I see things
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 18:01:59 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the notion that 'sentience' is a binary, is a religious belief.
verisimilitude: Of course, ``I knew it was dumb and wondered if anyone would call me out on it.'' is no excuse.
gregorynyssa: * I have remained an adherent.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: it'sa pretty 'expensive' religion (vs, say, 1 which simply posits that cthulhu sleeps beneath the seas, or similar non-obligating statement)
asciilifeform: ( the 'cost' of a religion, in this model, is roughly proportional to 'how much of the output of His Lying Eyes (tm)(r)(c) is the adherent expected to ignore on a typical day' )
verisimilitude: I don't see the issue.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'ma guess you didn't attend an american 'multiculturated' school; or know anyone who has, or has taught at one
verisimilitude: I don't find humans neurologically uniform, and have no issue dehumanizing others by simple observation.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: was addressed to gregorynyssa if wasn't clear
verisimilitude: I understood.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037680 << the existence of souls and the more general question of whether to trust one's senses goes back to Plato versus Aristotle
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 18:11:14 asciilifeform: ( the 'cost' of a religion, in this model, is roughly proportional to 'how much of the output of His Lying Eyes (tm)(r)(c) is the adherent expected to ignore on a typical day' )
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, even christianity nowhere explicitly specifies that erryone gets the same size soul.
verisimilitude: I've a delightful quote of mine for this occasion.
verisimilitude: I'm perfectly fine with that idea humans hold souls, so long as it be acknowledged others lack them.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037682 << I don't think Multiculturalism upholds body/soul distinction. that is a widespread misconception.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 18:14:56 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'ma guess you didn't attend an american 'multiculturated' school; or know anyone who has, or has taught at one
gregorynyssa: there are numerous examples of Multiculturalist teachings violating body/soul distinction. besides, Multiculturalism was designed/promulgated by Hippies who were partial to psychedelics and "Eastern religions," which specifically try to tear down that division.
gregorynyssa: the central driving force of Multiculturalism is, in reality, Enclavism (the belief that ethnic enclaves are quasi-sovereign; the desire to strengthen and expand ethnic enclaves, neighborhoods, churches, associations) and its resultant "vote bank" mechanics.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: for some $ethnic, for others nope
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: agreed. although, if your ethnicity is considered white, but has history of victimhood like Polish, you receive some leeway.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: where ?
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: the establishment of "white students clubs" are not allowed at university, but I have seen Polish and Ukrainian ethnic clubs.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the latter outgrowth of usg support for antisovietism in any form
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: fair point.
gregorynyssa: Enclavism has done a great deal of damage to the country. it has also ruined the lives of the more intelligent and well-read children within those enclaves who do not want to be bound by their racial mechanics.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: observe that only dysfunctional enclaves are Officially supported.
verisimilitude: I'm not going to weep for those unlike me.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037703 << yep. personally, I attribute that to the unrestrained mindset of Egalitarianism, rather than to more nefarious motives. maybe you don't agree.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 18:34:45 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: observe that only dysfunctional enclaves are Officially supported.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the fundamental rot in question is discussed in the old logs.
gregorynyssa: do you have a TLDR of what star-topology is?
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: familiar with inca empire? and phrase 'palace economy' ?
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037709 << nope, but I know the palace-economy from Minoan civilization. is that similar?
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 18:38:57 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: familiar with inca empire? and phrase 'palace economy' ?
asciilifeform: very similar.
asciilifeform: 'if you want food, and try to buy it from a farmer, the penalty is death by jaguars. you gotta go to the palace and if you're a good boy, the food dispensary will dispense you your allotted portion of gruel'
asciilifeform: 'if you grow $food and deliver it to somewhere other than palace, penalty -- death' etc
gregorynyssa: that is amazing. I never thought of analyzing modern society in terms of this Minoan concept
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: neither the minoans nor the incas 'had patent' on this glue trap. it's a consequence of the dominant tech paradigm of the time, simply.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 17:10:43 asciilifeform: a more compact statement of the key idea, for impatient folx, is in orwell's 'you and the atomic bomb'.
verisimilitude: Having read that bomb piece, I finally finished this, which is relevant.
asciilifeform: the key concept that seems to be lost on ~everyone is that the glue trap is not escapable by whining. even philosophically-erudite whining.
verisimilitude: Oh, that link is likely invalid.
asciilifeform: it is only escapable by escaping the technological gluetrap.
gregorynyssa: the star-topology concept perfectly fits my own critique of Multiculturalism.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: literally ~all of orwell is relevant.
asciilifeform: afaik 100% on www at this pt though.
gregorynyssa: basically, the upper-class, Ivy League educated white Americans serve as the "go betweens" for all other races/neighborhoods
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: correct, whole 'multiculti' nonsense was from beginning a cheap ploy by elite.
verisimilitude: Having read that bomb piece, I finally finished this, which is relevant.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: loox liek same link ? (i assume was to 'politics and the english language' ? )
verisimilitude: This should be correct, and yes.
asciilifeform: aa worx
asciilifeform has his entire collected publications & correspondence, in deadtree.
verisimilitude: I disagree with Orwell in some respects.
asciilifeform: would be a rather curious thing if you didn't
verisimilitude: In particular, I disagree with the antepenultimate paragraph, regarding such things as archaism.
verisimilitude: ``It has nothing to do with correct grammar and syntax, which are of no importance so long as one makes one's meaning clear''
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i suspect you'd like (at least in principle) the french approach to standardization.
asciilifeform must bbl.
verisimilitude: Part of the reason my writing is unique and bereft of common phrases is because I constrain it beyond what a reasonable man would.
verisimilitude: It's more fun to vivisect an idiom, than to use it.
verisimilitude: I also play with language in most of my writing, which is so uncommon nowadays.
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